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Typical lethargic reactionary US citizen mentality.
"When, where, should, and will" - All a day late and dollar short reaction against the Oligarchy with long term strategy and precision overview.
The wealthy aristocrats are hoping that cold winter weather will end the protests.
Agreed. I question the decision to start this "revolution" in winter, but I suppose dissatisfaction has no schedule, or awareness of inclement weather. I'll bring my thermies, down jacket and ski gloves.
We have a couple of platoons of ex-SEALs and Marines organizing to come down to act as a wall. The lads we've been talking with are coming down and cmaping out in their old uniforms as part of the vets that are coming down to protest the shirnking pension cheque and the dissolving VA medical benefits. No details yet, all I know most of them are on disability from mental health issues.
...otherwise it's looking good on the ground. People are fairly happy, lots of energy.
Otherwise, speaking of crowd control. Looks like the US govie is boxing in our cousins to the south.
CPL - Canadian border fence:
Fantastic. Many in Canada were talking about fencing themselves from the poor cousins from the south. They come take jobs, cheat on health care, gooble up subsidized drugs, etc.
It is wonderful news that the US goverment wants to pay for it. I am sure the Canadian goverment will be more than happy to help, and I also sure there will be thousands of grass roots Canadian supporters ready with shovels to help.
As soon as the natural gas and oil stops flowing south border, the Americans will start chopping their furniture to heat up their houses. Canada has buyers from all over world lined up. Who is going to sell that extra oil to USA? Venezuela? Iran? Russia? Mexico, that soon will need to import it themselves?
"most of them are on disability from mental health issues."
Soon to be policy; protesting disqualifies one from disability benefits.
Clearly, you're missing the point.
No I am agreeing. I think you are missing my point that they would just as soon cut the benefits of the ex-military protesting just because they are protesting.
I got that, my point is that "cut[ing] the benefits of the ex-military protesting just because they are protesting" is likely irrelevant, reeks of capricious desperation on the part of the administration and would, more than likely in the long term, exacerbate an already tenuous environment with an ever-increasing veteran population with combat experience. This is one of the many dark sides to empire.
Well it seems to me that the "administrations" past and present have no control stopping themselves from cutting off their nose to spite their face.
I know that it would be "irrelevant" except to piss of the vets even more; to kick the hornet's nest. I was just pointing out the stupidity and hypocrisy.
You're right, we do agree. Not sure how I misread your comment upstream.
I knew we did otherwise I wouldn't have replied to point it out.
See you there CPL.
We need all the help of the varied people of the world, not just this country... this is a global war and cannot be won on any single continent. We need to find these bastards and stop them forever. Enough time has been wasted, enough lives destroyed, eons of history written by the few who chose to be assholes and called themselves leaders... no more fucking leaders. We the people, need to take back our right to self govern, and we need to stop cowering to every fuck who threatens us with death. Only once we are willing to face the demons can we ever regain our self esteem, our courage, and our freedom. You have to know the history of the world is driven by rulers, and ruled. We are the ruled. Stop the fucking cycle. Look around, the institutions suck. This is not all that life has to offer, it's all the oligarchs are willing to offer. So stop supporting their systems, stop copying their paradigms... invent mother fuckers, think, do.
you'all be careful down there, ranger....
remember the 'bonus army'.....
the top .1% didnt get rich by play'in nice......
will do capt.
Let's be honest. 5000 people might have been there yesterday, but the only reason many of them mustered the courage was because they expected a free Radiohead concert. Seems the OWS team was misled by some asshat who thought ridiculing them was brilliant - probably some right wing org, or maybe the gov. Now the OWS team will hopefully go to the fucking trouble of actually verifying information before they allow interlopers to create mass missinformation / propaganda against them. Looking like stupid fools is not what they need right now... looking like amateurs being played is not what they need right now... shame someone had to do that to the rally. We're for sure saving his / her / their ass too.
Well, there are enough people like me at the rally, to hold the fort since we do not care what the information / misinformation says, we know we're there because it's the least destructive method to try to create change. I am also completely aware that this rally is far ahead of the scheduled angst most people don't personally feel yet. The vast majority of the country is still far too comfortable; most have not reached a limit where they are willing to actually think for a minute, and then formulate a statement, proclaiming their displeasure with the circumstances.
See, in this greedy self serving mother fucking shit hole of an economic system and subsequent culture cum society called AmeriKa, people don't give a crap about anything until it affects them. It's all about me, no concern for the other, greed is good, give me give me, all the better if I take before someone else takes because the world is full of takers. See, this disease leads to division of labor and division of society, so it's why the global elite established capitalism in this guise in the first fucking place... and this is why the whipping could have gone on for 45 fucking years or more, and most people just could not give a crap. It affected the poor, the disenfranchised, the lower class, the Asians, the sweatshop workers, etc. Money was funneled into the upper parts of the capitalist pyramid from so many fucking places, that it seemed to the people in the higher levels of the pyramid relatively speaking (Amerikans), that this system really works, and that wealth is created, not transferred, and all those Arabs / Saudi's are just disgruntled ingrates, heathens, or lazy good for nothing dummies. It just does not occur to the vast majority of Amerikans that they are actually very high up in a global pyramid ponzi scheme... and for all those who are aware, they remain silent because why disturb the gravy train when it ends at your doorstep.
To those assholes I say, go fuck yourself and stay home... suffer in your self absorption cunts. The rally is being brought to the country by people who are concerned citizens. Those who are not thinking of themselves but others. The rally is going to be there till the circumstances affect the larger body... say 6 months to 1 year... that's when the rest of the cowards will come out and start acting all heroic. By then, I'll have moved to some isolated location in a national park north of 6000 feet, awaiting the armageddon promised by the prophets.
In the mean time, all this talk of an impending revolution taking Amerika by storm is laughable if it's meant to be anytime before Christmas. So few people know why these people are protesting, and fewer still are even considering coming out. They are waiting for someone else to fix their problems. A Leader who knows better, who has the answers, who is willing to take all the risks... the sheeple want to remain sheeple... and many sheeple live right here too. I will not. They will not. You want your problem fixed, get the fuck over here and tell the police you don't like the police state, tell the bankers you don't like their bonuses. Me, I'm telling them for me, myself and I. I learned my lessons well in AmeriKa... if I don't take what I need myself, who will bother to take care of me.
Don't worry... if there is a revolution, it means your ass is covered too, simply by default, because if the police / government / oligarchy is overthrown, everyone will benefit, whether they risked their lives or not.
This is 2011. Isn't Radiohead sort of like Foghat or Deep Purple was to my generation who grew up on Metallica and Guns N Roses? What percentage of these people were even in Kindergarten when "Creep" was big? Did Radiohead make some kind of Mike Myers style comeback when I wasn't looking?
They might be there for superficial reasons, but I'll give them credit for showing up, with or without free concert from washed up has-beens.
No offense to you sir/ma'am, it must be the coffee.
What I wanted to say is that the rally is currently represented by a broad spectrum of interests... Anarchists, libertarians, conservatives, tea partiers, liberals, socialists, communists, unions, gay, lesbian, transgender, elderly, disabled, anti war, anti death penalty, anti establishment, etc. This represents a microcosm of the society we have around us, and this is democratic representation. The only way forward is to accept that the citizens of this country have all of these divergent opinions, and to try to collect the commonalities as an agenda that we can share. One problem is, the number of people on any given day may be reasonably consistent, but the people there is always changing... old people step away for a few days, new people step in... agenda changes or cannot form. So it will take a little while... but we need patience... this is not something where we overthrow some regime in a few weeks or some nonsense... this is likely going to fail, and if it succeeds, it will succeed once all sorts of people decide things really do suck, if not for themselves directly, surely for someone, and we must do something to end the suffering for that someone. Only then, will we actually have something different to even ask for, to speak for. Otherwise, why bother getting rid of bankers, if someone is willing to act just like them in their small sphere of influence?
In other words, look in the mirror and really look carefully... don't you see the banker in you?
I'm not buying the diversity of attendance meme. I despise the banking industry and do absolutely agree that the disparity of wealth distribution in this country is appalling. I have spent quite some time looking into the origins of this 'movement' and it is very clearly a project of the left. It is also abundantly clear that those most in support of this movement hold the strikingly odd view that the solution to the injustice they perceive is to come through a Marxism inspired prison planet sort of central government. This protest will solve nothing unless the true culprits are named and included as being guilty. These protesters to date are actually in a most perverse way entirely supportive of the regime aka 'government'. In other words they have isolated a symptom and protest that, rather than the actual disease itself.
For an expanded perspective please see the link.
I hope it's the extreme left and they bought some rope
This guy is on the ground at the protests while you're sitting around in your shorts in front of your computer... so how would you know shit about who is there and who is not?
Just an aside, but whenever I click on the video feed link or the donate link the internet connection freezes up. Completely. Have to restart. Does not say site is overloaded or anything. Running Firefox. Is someone closing this off or something?
Kass, you may have a Flash / Java problem... try reinstalling Flash 10 and the latest Java. The site was working and I just checked, it's working now, I use Firefox also.
@ link. anthony wile
"..Perhaps I'm wrong, but this seems to be the case. And if it is, then the demonstrations are a step back rather than forward."
while his suggestions are good (demonstrate the fed and washington )
he could start his own movement? or join in. regarding his
implication that these demonstrators represent a step backward he is
correct in acknowledging that he may be wrong, he is most definitely
very wrong. would he like someone from the movement to shovel the cake
into his mouth while he polishes off his next op-ed? that sounds nice.
I am not saying the origins or the supporters are not leftist Marxists... I included them in the list, but on the ground, there is inclusiveness, and the demands of all who are willing to speak are being heard, and there are definitely anarchists, libertarians, conservatives there. There is no doubt of that. There's even an early video of a middle aged white male speaking of how he's there not to overthrow capitalism but to restore rule of law to te banking industry. He is a libertarian, but none the less, there is a broad diverse collective here. Me, I happen to think capitalism can't ever work. I happen to think that we need to look towards other economic models. We need to agree on what an economic model is supposed to produce. So many people falsely believe that an economy is supposed to bring them personal wealth. Wrong. An economy is supposed to provide for the needs of the participants. Unfortunately, capitalism does not do the latter, it does the former. Communism comes close to the latter, but the versions attempted failed for many many reasons. That does not mean we cannot continue to investigate how to solve for the latter aim.
Ranger4564 said: "...but on the ground, there is inclusiveness, and the demands of all who are willing to speak are being heard, and there are definitely anarchists, libertarians, conservatives there."
Useful idiots, one and all.
Ranger4564 also said"...There's even an early video of a middle aged white male speaking of how he's there not to overthrow capitalism but to restore rule of law to te banking industry."
Replace it with who's law?
Big government intervention is the cause of our ills; not the cure. The Federal government’s over-reaching ability to regulate commerce, trade, finance, and labor is the cause of all our ills. Who allows our government to over-reach? The people do. Our current plight is not a failure of Wall Street, they are just a bunch of resourceful people who are playing the hand they are dealt. It is “the people” who allowed the federal government to amass its over-reaching authority and control. With every crisis throughout our nation's history, the politician was able to convince “the people” that they could “right the wrong” if only they were given more authority to regulate. Wall Street is just using that concentration of power. If you shrink the power of the central government then Wall Street will have to resort to the laws of competition in an open market place to grow and succeed rather than rely on the halls of government to create and protect their monopoly/oligarchy.
Ranger4564 also had this to say "Communism comes close to the latter, but the versions attempted failed for many many reasons. That does not mean we cannot continue to investigate how to solve for the latter aim."
Communisim didn't fail, it was just implemented wrong...in USSR, Cuba, North Korea, Cuba, China, Venezuela, Greece, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Ranger4564, I think you are in need of re-education. I strongly suggest a daily dose of current truth from The People's Cube.
Democratic Socialism as implemented in Scandinavia, Germany is pretty successful. Given the huge natural resources of the US relative to Germany, our standard of living should be times 5 if capitalism is better.
"Our current plight is not a failure of Wall Street, they are just a bunch of resourceful people who are playing the hand they are dealt. "
This comment taints everything else you have to say. The business plan of Wall Street and much of the corporate power structure is rooted in lying, cheating and stealing principally enabled by bribery and other applications of the pure force of money.
The general public has no idea of how utterly corrupt Wall Street and the markets are, right down to the very simplest transaction of buying and selling shares, and how the concept of fractional banking has morphed into a huge counterfeiting operation where the big money intentonally distorts price discovery by selling that which it does not own-- and is never required to deliver.
Not to mention that Wall Street ends up writing the rules of the game by rotating some of their members through government and paying off the rest. Example - the way they got the rules restricting speculators in commodities markets eliminated so that they can buy unlimited contracts even though they NEVER take physical delivery. This was restricted specifically to prevent speculators from driving prices up and increasing the cost of living. This is probably adding $20 a barrel to the cost of oil now which we all pay. Now maybe it's good to make oil more expensive but we could do the same with a tax like Europe does and then at least some of the money might go to building transport systems instead of bigger mansions for GS and co.
Byteshredder, I'm continuously expanding my education, but I'm not looking for a belief system. I'll check it out, but try to bear in mind I'm using references that people will understand to some extent... i don't necessarily mean communism or marxism, but they come close to what I'm envisioning. I know I do not want to pursue a model that's based on pure competitiveness, but who knows, maybe like Heilbroner, I'll decide to in the end.
Too much StarTrek in this one's diet .
Gene Roddenberry created it for a reason. You'd rather I advocated 1984?
Ranger4564, I must admit I've never read much by Heilbroner, I've already had my fill of Keynsian/Marxist literature to know what I'm missing. You say you are not looking for a belief system, but that's what life is all about. That single question defines each of our lives. If I may sidestep the "big" belief question for a moment and ask: is man inherently good/honest or evil/dishonest?
Many people will answer that man is good and can be trusted to look out for each other, but history and our own personal experience tells a different story. Each of has lied to someone, taken something and cheated the system. In turn, those people we have offended have done the same to others.
Our founding fathers believe that mankind is inherently flawed/sinful and can be trusted to do what is in each of our own best interest. They believe the same character flaw extends to groups/associations/classes. They formulated a method of self-government that distributed authority as widely as possible between federal, state and local bodies. Within the federal state, they further subdivided the 3 branches of government that included a number of speed bumps that prevented a temporary majority from usurping control and fundamentally transforming the country.
Economics is just another field of social studies field - like political "science" - LOL. All of the social studies are really a study of belief systems. A person's belief system will determine their actions. A society's belief system determines their values, culture, language, arts, laws and economics. If you're not looking for a belief system then I take it you are satisfied with the beliefs (and the assumptions/systems that found those beliefs) that you already have. I commend your open-mindedness. In the end, I hope you find truth.
Liberalism/Progressivism/Socialism/Marxism/Communism are all belief systems just as our Constitutional Republic is a belief system.
Keynsian economics is a belief system, just as Austrian economics is a belief system.
Which set of belief systems is grounded in reality (the way things are) and which belief systems are based on the way things could be/should be (utopia)?
For me, I have my own opinion about the belief system of those who are protesting Wall Street and capitalism. Please forgive my twisted sense of humor, but these guys at The People's Cube crack me up:
Heilbroner was a historian, he wrote the Worldly Philosophers... economic history as he saw it. He was a socialist / communist / liberal until very near his death, he recanted and admitted he had been wrong, that capitalism was the only viable system. I think he was a good historian but a bad philosopher / economist. He clearly was limiting his conceptions to what he knows exist today... I am not trying to restore any systems, I am trying to create a new system. Zeitgeist is a system that is similar to some of the points I argue for. Automation, liberation from work / labor, let people be involved in fulfilling action, local production of many items, competition of ideas not livelihoods, experimentation, you want to try designing a better engine, we dont stop you we facilitate it, you want to try to create new ways of harnessing energy, we help, not hinder. In a cooperative world, progress would be astounding. In a society where the work ethic is estabished for the purposes of self development and not production alone, people would voluntarily work on things. There will need to be thresholds / criteria / limits, but it's still not a complete system... I do not have all of the answers, but if we dont experiment on future systems, we stay stuck in the failures of history.
What I meant by I'm not looking for belief systems is, I'm not trying to advocate a conservative, liberal, marxist, keynsian, libertarian, sanctioned, authorized, mainstream message. I am not looking for something that someone else said and I read, and now believe. Every fucking word I write is derived from my own contemplation. I read very little, and think a lot. I have ideas in many fields, but I have many ideas specifically in economics because it affects all of the other aspects of life. So, in my case, I am not a product of some culture or civilization or ideas, I am my own set of ideas, derived by considering the circumstances, connecting my own dots.
Utopia is not a dream, and nonetheless, we need to aspire to it regardless, because it is where most benefit. We cannot sit around and watch people die of poverty / hunger / disease... why bother with police, fire and ambulance at that point... just let everyone have a gun.
communism is a brilliant fantasy. That is all it is. Who is any one person to make the decision for all. How do all decide on what is best for all? If Mike wats to wear a green shirt but it was decided that all must wear yellow shirts, what happens to Mike?
You said it yourself, there are 5000 different points of view in the crowd. They may all agree on the problem but with 5000 different solutions nothing will be solved. Communism/Socialism requires all citizens to accept the exact same solution to every problem. Not only is that impossible it only leads to one conclusion, fascism. One man who forcibly decides the solution for all.
That is why America was built as a republic based on concentrating power at the local level. You have a much better chance at freedom and sucess if small groups of people decide for themselves and can group together gving all viewpoints a chance at sucess or failure. Poor choices and viewpoints would fail and the right choices would prosper. A comunity of hippies with no skills probably wouldn't last long. People that rely on each other with common viewpoints and gols will probably make it. True capitalism works because it allows for failure and allows for progress. Communism can never progress becuase it woks to hard at preventing failure and assuring equality. In the end everyone is equal in failure.
The answer has always been to give power back to communities. However that also means bringing back inequality on a massive scale, not by income, but point of view. If a community wants to ban gays, well that is thier right. If a community wants to ban whites, well good for them, I dont have to live there. Because a mass group of people can never agree all this push for equality has only harmed the collective ability to prosper. A push for diversity only concentrates power in the hands of the few who claim to represent all points of view.
It's deplorable that several people gave a thumbs up to your version of utopian tribalism (or is it utopian Balkanization nationalism?).
Apparently a "community" can do anything, persecute its minorities, abuse its children, pollute downstream, and it's all OK because "I don't have to live there". Doubtless the "community" borders would be open for migration, and the transportation network and commerce between "communities" would all be handled by each local "community", all without conflict... unless of course a "community" decided it needed to expand its borders.
Although there is a problem of abuse by distant government and distant organizations, and a value to greater local control, the solution is not the Balkanized "freedom" to do anything that you described.
I'll just have to take your word for it as far as attendance goes. Please consider starting your own commune though if you feel it necessary to engage in experimentation with communism. My only problem with communism is the forced participation aspect. Keep it voluntary and all is well. Me? I'll take the jungle over a zoo any day.
Plus go check out the video's or pictures on Youtube or the main web page... https://occupywallst.org/
Do you see uniformity, even in voice?
Good luck to you as well.
End the Fed, break up the big banks, stop fascism. This is what my sign read 2 years ago at a tea party rally,( I don't label myself a tea partiest, not anti militiary industrial complex enough for me) and it will read the same today if I can make it out there. Good luck.
Good luck implicit... I'll be there today, marching, maybe playing some new drum(s).
Among your diverse group of protesters will be, or already are, agents of law enforcement there to discredit you with acts of vandalism. The MSM will have the good fortune to be in the right spot to get great coverage of the mayhem.
Yep those law enforcement agents will have cell phones in their pockets that the media can use to tag and follow them to videotape without anyone knowing besides the miliatary who launced 30 gps satellites but want to replace them with better more accurate ones. It might take a bit of rocket fuel to get them up there. But that's ok they kill people to get what they want.
Yup. Agent Provocateurs. Know it, can't do much about it. Except hopefully someone catches them on one of the 100's of cameras. I know most people will believe the MSM because I know many people, most are gullible.
The forces in motion here are beyond anyone's understanding or control.
It will be up to the survivors to cobble together their version of what happened on the eve of the triumphant disaster.
This is the same Alec Baldwin who does all those really fantastic Capital One commercials? Greeeeaaat.....
Yep, that would be him
Alec is a fat self-involved smug moron. The protest for him is no more than lowgrade ego-trip and exposure.
Alec Baldwin must be reading ZH. Who else would neg you for pointing out that the phony fat fucking liberal fraud is a phony fat fucking liberal fraud? This asshole is shilling for Capital One and has the balls to act like he is a "man of the people". Fuck him and all that look like him. "What's in his wallet?" Certainly, not integrity.
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