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Gold Counterfeiting Goes Viral: 10 Tungsten-Filled Gold Bars Are Discovered In Manhattan

Tyler Durden's picture


A few days ago, our report on the discovery of a single 10 oz Tungsten-filled gold bar in Manhattan's jewelry district promptly went viral, as it meant that a tungsten-based, gold-counterfeiting operation, previously isolated solely to the UK and Europe, had crossed the Atlantic. The good news was that the counterfeiting case was isolated to just one 10 oz bar. This morning, the NYPost reports that as had been expected, in the aftermath of the realization that the sanctity of the gold inventory on 47th Street just off Fifth Avenue has been polluted, and dealers promptly check the purity of their gold, at least ten more fake 10-ounce "gold bars" filled with Tungsten has been discovered.

The Post has learned as many as 10 fake gold bars — made up mostly of relatively worthless tungsten — were sold recently to unsuspecting dealers in Manhattan’s Midtown Diamond District.


The 10-oz. gold bars are hugely popular with Main Street investors, and it is not known how many of the fake gold bars were sold to dealers — or if any fake bars were purchased by the public.

As is to be expected, the Post story is weak on details: after all, any dealer who admits to having allowed Tungsten to enter his or her inventory can kiss their retail business goodbye, as customers will avoid said Tungsten outlet like the plague, for the simple reason that suddenly counterparty risk has migrated from Wall Street to the Diamond District. The one named dealer is the same one who already made an appearance in the previous story on Tungsten in gold's clothing.

One gold dealer discovered that four of the 3-inch-by-1-inch gold bars he bought — worth about $72,000 retail — were counterfeit.


“It has the entire street on edge,” said Ibrahim Fadl, 62, who has been the owner of Express Metal Refining, a Midtown gold-refinery business, for the last 11 years. “I and the others on the street work off of trust; now that trust is strained.”


Fadl, a Columbia University graduate with a master’s degree in chemical engineering, and who has more than 40 years in the industry, purchased the four fake bars from a well-known Russian salesman with whom he has done business.

Ah yes, those pesky Russians: always happy to do the Fed's bidding, because who really gains from the loss of confidence in physical gold?

Fadl became suspicious when he offered the salesman a deep discount for the investment-grade gold bars and he quickly accepted it, a source tells The Post.


Fadl said he did his due diligence “by X-raying the bars to ascertain the purity of the gold and weighing the bars, and the Swiss markings were perfect.”


Tungsten is an industrial metal that weighs nearly the same as gold but costs a little over $1 an ounce. Gold closed Friday at $1,774.80 an ounce.

We wish Fadl all the best in his liquidation sale. Others, for logical reasons, are far less willing to step forward:

A second 47th Street refiner, who wished to remain anonymous, said he was burned recently when he bought six gold bars that turned out to be mostly tungsten, with just a gold veneer. He would not comment, though, on who sold him the bogus bars.

The counterfeiting so far appears to have impacted solely PAMP (Produits Artistiques Métaux Précieux ) gold bars, madeby MTB, whose CEO can hardly be too happy that some "Russian" has made it a life mission to destroy the credibility of any gold stamped with the PAMP stamp.

Raymond Nassim, CEO of Manfra, Tordell & Brookes, the American arm of the Swiss firm that created the original gold bars — with their serial number and purity rating stamped clearly into them — said he reported the situation to the US Secret Service, whose jurisdiction covers the counterfeiting of gold bars.


He said his company “is supporting and cooperating with authorities any way we can.”


Nassim thought the culprit must be a professionally trained jeweler to have pulled off the caper.


“The forger had to slice the original bar along the side, hollow out the gold and insert the tungsten ingot, and then reseal and polish the bar, Nassim said.

The case of gold counterfeiting has already taken NYC by storm:

At an industry dinner Thursday night hosted by Comex, the New York-based metals exchange, the room was abuzz with talk about the bogus gold bars, according to Fadl.

Which was also to be expected. What is also to be expected is that as more and more stories of Tungsten making it into broader gold circulation, that retail sales of physical gold will certainly be impaired as end consumers become far more cautious about what they buy.

And while we await more information, especially from the Secret Service, who is "on top" of this case, which we assume implies that gold is after all money, we leave readers with our conclusion from Tuesday: "with false flags rampant these days, we would not be surprised if this is merely yet another attempt to discredit gold, this time physical, as an undilutable medium of warehousing wealth. So buyer beware: in a time when everyone is broke, triple check before exchanging one store of wealth for another."

For those curious what a fake 10oz bar looks like, here it is again:


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Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:27 | 2822097 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I'm seriously starting to think it's a rather large operation, like a mint or clearing house that is doing this. Has anyone tracked the deposit receipt's for these bars yet?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:30 | 2822110 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I am amazed that this hasn't been reported yet.  Would seem to be a rather serious issue, especially for a PM warehouse/bank/supplier.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:36 | 2822135 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

That's just great! Now I have to go scuba diving off the coast of Bimini to try and recover and check the gold I "lost" while I was transporting it from my bank in Nassau to Miami.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:10 | 2822253 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

Meanwhile, zombie nation still thinks that the old crazy uncle Ron Paul is a lunatic for wanting to audit Fort Knox.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:26 | 2822296 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

meh, first rule of gold I learned was to buy nothing over an ounce, and to buy eagles because ripping off the us mint carries heavier penalties.  

buy american! ... until they find a fake eagle anyway.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:31 | 2822314 markmotive
markmotive's picture

Diversify. Hold some physical. Hold some ETFs that own physical. Hold some gold miners.

  • ETFS Physical Asian Gold Shares (AGOL) – stored in Singapore
  • ETFS Physical Swiss Gold Shares (SGOL) – stored in Switzerland


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:39 | 2822334 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

Hold physical gold.  Hold physical silver.  Lose it good.

I don't trust the Swiss to hold my goods anymore than I can swim there.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:48 | 2822350 Troll Magnet
Troll Magnet's picture

why don't they just put gensler/chilton on the case?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:12 | 2822417 Temporalist
Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:38 | 2822470 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

Good news to those who own gold coins/bars that were produced decades ago. God knows how much of these 'gold' bars are in the open market. Thus another reason to buy gold COINS and not gold BARS since theres less incentive to put tungsten in an one ounce coin.

Its just amazing what is going on. We have Gold ETFs who are supposed backed fully by physical gold....but isnt. Lets just say its NAV is backed by 50% of physical gold, are those bars 100% gold or 90% tungten filled? I would assume its the latter...which means that these ETFs are backed by 5% of actual gold holdings...and 45% tungsten....GLD should be renamed TGN.

Btw, the futures price in 'gold' on the market is correct at 1,780 per ounce...that is 1,780 USD for 0.1 ounce of gold and 0.9 ounce of the true spot price of gold is actually 17,800 USD per ounce.



Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:54 | 2822501 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"Good news to those who own gold coins/bars that were produced decades ago. God knows how much of these 'gold' bars are in the open market. Thus another reason to buy gold COINS and not gold BARS since theres less incentive to put tungsten in an one ounce coin."


Because gold bars produced decades ago are harder to hollow out and fill......

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 18:42 | 2822918 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

A friend told me that some of his gold maples sound funny when he drops them on the counter and he bought them from a top five dealer. He wil check them on Monday. Anyone has an idea what to do if they are indeed fake? He has 10 of them. 

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:12 | 2822970 DosZap
DosZap's picture

A friend told me that some of his gold maples sound funny when he drops them on the counter and he bought them from a top five dealer. He wil check them on Monday. Anyone has an idea what to do if they are indeed fake? He has 10 of them.


Depends on what he is comparing FUNNY to.

Does he have others that were bought at a different time, and do they have a different sound from this lot?.

Or is he comparing them to Eagles,Krugs,etc, that have other metals in them?.

Mapes are at min .999, or 999.9,99999.

Eags and Krugs are 91.6xxxx.

I would have him take them back where he purchased them, for checks, and if they are not real, time for a refund, and or a lawsuit.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:19 | 2822975 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Maybe JPM is taking the manipulation to a whole new level?  They rehypothicate the creamy center.

Of course the vault at Ft. Knox hasn't been inspected or audited since the 1950's, who knows how much tungsten is stored there?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:48 | 2823027 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

There is no tungsten in Ft. Knox. Or anything else.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:56 | 2823039 12ToothAssassin
12ToothAssassin's picture

This, yet paper gold is still perfectly legal... Guess it depends if TPTB support the end result or not I guess.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 22:55 | 2823320 dryam
dryam's picture

My instincts tell me TPTB have planted this story in order to start casting doubt about whether people can trust gold.  It's the perfect thing to do when the money printing is starting to go exponential & TPTB don't ever want for there to be anything close to a critical mass to start losing faith in fiat. 

This story just doesn't add up.  It doesn't even come close to passing the smell test.


Mon, 09/24/2012 - 01:24 | 2823488 0z
0z's picture

I don't trust the Swiss to hold my goods anymore than I can swim there.

Well, let me tell you: if secure vaults in Switzerland, Singapore, Monacco and the like are compromised, your pile of gold wont be worth their weight in dry ammunition. You're talking Mad Max scenario, where keeping yourself alive will be your full time job. Just reminding you.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 06:30 | 2823658 Badabing
Badabing's picture

I looked at the pictures of the tungsten filled 10oz bar found in Manhattan and if the bar was hollowed out it would have had mill marks on the inside. We can clearly see no mill marks in the picture with a thin layer peeled back! In fact the inner side has taken on the texture of the tungsten core. Also the edge is peeled back and the inside was not polished but a seam is not visible.

The bar is layered in 9999 that’s gold soft enough to mark with your teeth when bitten, how the fuck you going to chuck up that soft a metal with out making marks and milling out to 1/16th walls?

The point is these counterfeits are made by very skilled and desperate bankers.

Do you think that’s air you’re breathing?

Do you think the Swiss PAMP bars where picked to counterfeit just coincidence?

The Swiss have fucked up big time, many will see jail time because the clients they fucked by selling allocated gold are no small fish. The fake gold was made to buy time. That’s all the fucking banks do now is buy time. The end is drawing near prepare yourselves!


Fucking banks!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 07:14 | 2823698 Badabing
Badabing's picture

And there’s more, these are the same photos from when the story first broke stating one bar existed and yet we see two different bar  #s, The top two photos have #039388 and the bottom is #038892. The second photo down has a horn of plenty and is drilled in a different spot than the photo on the bottom and if you look in the upper right corner you see a part of an image that does not belong to the horn of plenty. So more than one bar existed when the story first broke! We are being duped by false reporting. This is bigger than you think!  

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 01:30 | 2823492 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture


Tungsten would imply they have respect for the citizenry.

Debt Money tyranny

Spread the word...

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:51 | 2823029 ZaphodBeeblebrox
ZaphodBeeblebrox's picture

For future purchasing, the Fisch Instrument is the way to go. 

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:21 | 2823081 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

But the brochure claims it can detect most metals. I guess that means not all.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 21:58 | 2823251 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

A Fisch tester will NOT detect a really good tungsten fake.  So far the only options are destructive testing (cutting/drilling it open) or an ultrasonic tester.  The latter should now be in use by all reputable major coin/bullion dealers.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 18:46 | 2822933 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

Read this story for a real bone chiller.

Going into the Fed gold audit, this article says the Fed only has 423 tons of US gold.  If it is true, and FT Knox still has any gold, the US only has 5000 tons now.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 23:11 | 2823354 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

MESSAGE TO ERIC SPROTT: Dude, that 2,500 Tons annually you can't account for, think 10oz bars!

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:10 | 2822967 toady
toady's picture

I wonder how many hundreds of tons that the Chinese recently bought are 90% tungsten?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:03 | 2823046 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Scary thought toady. I wondered what was going to happen to all the tungsten when the last GE incandescent bulb plant closed in the US. Guess they found a use for it!


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:24 | 2823085 Oleander
Oleander's picture

Should Mr Chavez check all that gold he repatriated?

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 08:21 | 2823772 earnulf
earnulf's picture

If he hasn't already, he better get cracking, there are reparations to be had!

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 22:35 | 2823295 Pairadimes
Pairadimes's picture

The Chinese manufacture gold-plated tungsten on an industrial scale. I think they know that trick.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:47 | 2823122 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

zoggl said:


From the page above: "Here we declare: Please do not use our gold-plated tungsten alloy bar and tungsten alloy golden bar for any illegal purpose."

...and from the above page: "Chinatungsten Online (Xiamen) Manu.&Sales Corp. is a very professional and serious company, specializing in manufacturing and selling tungsten related products for more than two decades. Our gold-plated tungsten alloy products are only for souvenir and decoration purpose."

Some more selected comedy:

"Detecting a high-quality tungsten fake gold bar would be extremely difficult. It would likely require significant and material alterations to the bar being tested and this would negatively affect the marketability if its hallmark veracity were vindicated. Some applications require the tungsten to be fake gold. The main reasons for tungsten fake gold bar are to protect the wire from corrosion or to solder it to other metals."

"Also tungsten fake gold saves the energy and poses no pollution threat to the environment and thus to achieve a sustainable development."

(both from )

"Owning to its excellent properties of tungsten such as high density with small volume, high melting point, excellent hardness, superior wearing resistance, high ultimate tensile strength, high ductility, tungsten fake gold product always be used such as darts, golf club, fishing weight, ballast in yacht, racing car, and aircraft; Also because of its properties like high temperature resistance, low vapor pressure, nuisance free, non-toxic and environmental friendly, good corrosion resistance, wonderful shock resistance, tungsten fake gold products can also used as heat sinks, crankshaft, counterweight in oil drill, mine exploitation and so on."

(from )


(rorring on froor raughing my fucking US citizenism ass off!!!!)

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:37 | 2822647 Dr Benway
Dr Benway's picture

In all likelihood the dealers were offered the gold at a deep discount from sources they knew to be shady, with the expectation that the gold was hot. That was the MO for the mysterious gold forgery of Brink-MATs numbered bars:

Of course, this is also the same MO as when fake gold chains are sold on the street. The buyers think they are getting a great deal on gold of questionable provenance.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:07 | 2822732 JohnKozac
JohnKozac's picture

Something's not kosher about Mr Mohammed's story.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:07 | 2822733 negative rates
negative rates's picture

That is a whole barrel of rotton apples.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 00:01 | 2823425 Overfed
Overfed's picture

It's not easy to cheat an honest man.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:48 | 2822471 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I'm guessing it was ANYTHING except for jews involved in a gold counterfeitting ring... They're honest beyond reproach (based opon their thousands of years of [peculiarly 'special' & dedicated] experience & ZEAL towards administrating & stewarding fiat currencies for the benefit of ALL mankind [with no regards whatsoever towards personal profit])...

My 'knee jerk' reaction here would be to to blame it on the Iranians...

Edit: Oh ~ I got an immediate JUNK... It must mean that somebody disagrees with that heartfelt & honest portrayal...

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:05 | 2822727 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Anytime the MSM says "Russian", as in "Russian Mafia"...just substitute the "J" word. You have, in fact, never dealt with a Jew until you have dealt with a Russian Jew. Make sure your fillings are in solid, and the cow is firmly tethered.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 21:34 | 2823212 MartialLawIsUponUs
MartialLawIsUponUs's picture

Plz take your antisemitism somewhere else

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 00:15 | 2823443 drexlraw
drexlraw's picture

russian joos are semitic?

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 01:47 | 2823504 European American
European American's picture

The Truth is Anti-Semitic

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:12 | 2822418 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

I think you missed the point, mark.  lack of counterparty risk only happens if you are holding your own gold.  Otherwise it is just another digital promise, and none of the miners or ETF will actually send you your gold if you ask for it, except maybe sprott.  

If I may rant, holding physical gold says to the TPTB "Fuck off, I'm taking my ball and going home.  You will not make easy money off my hard earned money by holding it in your banks.  You will not entice me to pay tomorrow for a hamburger today via low interest rates.  Take your credit and your status whoring culture and get fucked".  And by the way, If you have a mortgage, a credit card, a car loan, or anything on terms...  you ARE the problem.  You can't bitch about a system you wilingly take part in.   If there was no mortages, houses would be cheaper.  If there were no student loans, college would be cheaper.  This applies to EVERYTHING.  

Despite what our leaders tell us, if you'd like to do your part for your country, keep your money outside of the banks and buy only what you can afford.   Revolution is simple abstinence.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:44 | 2822480 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

+10 "You can have my answer now, Senator."

"Revolution is simple abstinence."  Well said.  Posting to FB right now, ironically.


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:50 | 2822693 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

February, 2013, President Obama introduces Protect America Anti-Galt and Financial Terrorism Act.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:39 | 2822812 Umh
Umh's picture

Well then; you should act now, before it's a crime.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:16 | 2823069 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

SIMPLE abstinence???? Hahahaha   Who do you know who abstains from anything anymore?  Very few, i imagine. 

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:48 | 2822487 odatruf
odatruf's picture

BK - I agree with you for the most part, except that using some of the financial instruments of TPTB can benefit a savvy person under the right circumstances.

I bought my house 2+ years ago with 100% cash. Paid in full and got the physical deed.  I then opened a line of credit at a local community bank on the equity up to 80% of its value.  To do this, it costs me a $50 per year annual fee. I've taken cash not quite equal to 70% of the available equity and bought a two family house nearby, that I invested in some paint and small fix up projects on and have now rented both sides to some nice families. Their rent covers the equity line cost, plus all other expenses of the two family plus puts $500 per month in my pocket.  I've since applied for another equity line on the two family, have been approved and am now looking for another suitable property to buy. I know that I can not roll on like this forever because there is a limit to the lines of credit I will get as a result of my income to loan ratio going up each time, but I figure I can probably do two more like the first one or one larger one before I hit that max.

The key is / was having the cash to buy the first place because I avoid thousands in transaction costs from a traditional mortgage and closing. Since I am paying cash, I am not forced to buy anything I don't want as far as title insurance, etc. And then I use cash from the line of credit to buy the next place and again don't have any transactions costs but the line's annul fee.

I do the same thing with credit cards.  I have a zero fee one that I pay off each month and don't ever pay a dime in finance charges. I recognize that the merchants pay a fee to he banks when I use it, but mostly I do pay cash at local places and use the cards online or at chain stores. That part isn't perfect, but the benefit is positive to me.



Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:04 | 2822521 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

using credit wisely and not using credit are two different things.  you have balanced, intelligent approach, but you are stil feeding the beast and lining the pockets of bankers.  lending money at interest is usury.  I'm not a religious person but I think its telling that all major relgions in their pure form do not allow it.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:11 | 2822536 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Without question, they are different things, as you say.

I do try to not feed the beast where I can, but if I get more from the exchange I am going to at least consider it. While I might want to be more absolute about it, I can't cut off my nose to spite my face on this. I am already self employed as it is, and if I can add a little more to my passive income, then I will be insluated as much as I can be against a lot of the events on the risk horizon.


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:35 | 2822577 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

nobody's hands are completely clean, I only stopped feeding the beast in '09.  and while lending money does involve risk and capital, I just don't think it's a legitimate business, the romans thought the same thing which is why only the jews were permitted to engage in it (talk about a plan that backfired).  

Banks lobby Congress, who in turn draft laws that benefit the banks.  And like suckers, we finance the whole thing.  We can choose to keep doing so or we can accept the consequences of not using credit, even if just for a few years, and bring these bastards down.   It's entirely possible.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:28 | 2823001 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

"Banks lobby Congress"?  I think you have the roles reversed, just sayin.


"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes... Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."

- Napoleon Bonaparte, 1815

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:23 | 2822771 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Advancing credit without the backing of capital is another thing again. Borrowing to build a house with a fraudlent credit note and then paying your suppliers with the same note, is just passing the buck, so to speak. The whole circle of debt means there is nothing for the last man holding to settle with. Everyone's been paid, but come exposure, nobody gets settlement, even if you think you own that house.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:20 | 2822979 toady
toady's picture

I'll bet Sprott is shitting his pants right now. Running through the vault trying to figure out which bars are fake.

The Chinese too!

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:15 | 2822425 PontifexMaximus
PontifexMaximus's picture

do not take SGOL, JPM is involved and UBS, buy ZGLD:SW or ZSIL:SW, they are sponsored by Zürcher Kantonalbank, Zürich, which has State gurantee and gives physisical delivery loco Zürich.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:44 | 2822479 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Seems to me that the "other" fraud is the high possibilities of exchanges selling the same gold bars several times over...or selling gold they do not actually have in inventory or on order.

I suggest in depth audits of the exchanges and warehouses along with proving the authenticity of the gold.

I also suggest never buying anything of significant value from Russia. These former commie countries (inculding China) practiced lieing to survive for many many decades. It's not even a moral issue for them.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:47 | 2822688 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Ignore the junk, you are right to diverify. Junkers are morons.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:36 | 2823108 bilejones
bilejones's picture

I do both.


I like The Central Fund  (cef)  based in canada, mix of gold and silver.


A couple of years ago I aske about their storage/ownership.

Here's their reply



To reassure you about our gold bars, we can only tell you that all of Central Fund's gold bars have been delivered to the CIBC Bank, our custodian, directly from Canadian based refiners who are certified to
produce London Good Delivery Bars by The London Bullion Market Association.
We have dealt with these same refiners for over 25 years.

The gold and silver bullion is always held on an unencumbered, allocated and
segregated basis. It is also subjected to physical inspection on at least an
semi-annual basis by Ernst & Young LLP and Central Fund representatives in
the presence of bank officials.  We do not sell, loan or lease our bullion
so it never leaves our vault and when we do purchase more bullion through
the completion of a public offering of shares, those new bars are always
certified as good delivery bars by the LBMA as well.

  Yours truly, Marda Jeffrey, Investor Services Central Fund of Canada Limited 905-648-7878



Seems to me it's as good third party ownership as you're going to get.  Certainly beats the crap out of GLD and SLV.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:52 | 2823030 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

OMG...I hope all my 100 oz. are real.   sarc off.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 09:44 | 2824025 passwordis
passwordis's picture

As I understand it you can't tungsten fill a Gold coin, because it will increase the thickness of the coin by a fraction of a milometer…  This is picked up easily on a FISCH (see)   The coin will not pass through the slot you see.  Most reputable bullion dealers use a Fisch or similar tool to check coins. Its much easier on a Gold bar because the thickness test is not used, only weight. 

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 15:56 | 2825541 DosZap
DosZap's picture

As I understand it you can't tungsten fill a Gold coin, because it will increase the thickness of the coin by a fraction of a milometer… This is picked up easily on a FISCH (see) The coin will not pass through the slot you see. Most reputable bullion dealers use a Fisch or similar tool to check coins. Its much easier on a Gold bar because the thickness test is not used, only weight.


I disagree, if the Fisch had the Ultrasound checker yeah, w/out it, it's no more reliable than a $25.00 one.

Density frequency is the only SURE way to know.(Without meltling the biatch down.)

Plus, the Fisch are so damned expensive to cover all your bases, the UTG is one size works for all. For not a lot more than 2 Fisch checkers.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:32 | 2822304 savagegoose
savagegoose's picture


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:25 | 2822298 CPL
CPL's picture

Bring a couple of tanks.  At least the dive will be nice.  Might get lucky and find one of the 1300 unclaimed gold wrecks in the area at the same time

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:29 | 2822311 markmotive
markmotive's picture

Perhaps there is some reason to hold gold through a large intermediary with the resources to ensure they actually own gold? (Eg ETF that owns physical?)

Or is there a simple way to test for tungsten?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:48 | 2822351 seek
seek's picture

As discussed in the earlier thread, there is a simple way to test for tungsten.

An Ultrasonic Thickness Gauge (UTG) will easily verify the authenticity of a gold bar or coin. They cost as little as $160. The gold dealers that got fooled by these fakes are either complete morons, or there is way more to this story (e.g., it's a planted story) than meets the eye.

I only deal with eagles and I still use a UTG. It's so trivially inexpensive and easy to do, not doing a check makes no sense at all.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:19 | 2822434 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

Agree 100%. I have a UTG and tested my silver with it. Everything was from Tulving and all of it was fine. Great peace of mind.

These 10oz Swiss bars came in a plastic blister-pack - apparently it gives people a false sense of security, and you can't test the bars without cutting the package. I guess some people think they lose value by opening it?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:55 | 2822503 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

I turned one of those UTG's on a wad of greenbacks, turns out it was all just paper.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:13 | 2822538 odatruf
odatruf's picture


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:53 | 2822699 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

It's actually a paper and cloth mixture called "rag". Doesn't make it any more valuable of course.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:15 | 2822754 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Well it should. That "rag" used to be some babe's tight-fitting blue jeans.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 22:54 | 2823318 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

Or a mu-mu worn by a person of walmart.   Anybody can  contribute.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:28 | 2822657 lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

you just take out the staples holding the package together.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:30 | 2822446 akak
akak's picture

Just for the sake of asking (because I know nothing about ultrasonic testing), could not some exotic alloy be formulated to match the ultrasonic signature of gold, just as tungsten is used to match its density?  Is such a thing possible, or not?


EDIT: On reflection, I realized that one would have to match BOTH the ultrasonic and density signatures of gold to make a convincing forgery --- which I would have to guess would be probably exceedingly difficult if not outright impossible.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:30 | 2822454 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

You could surely match the speed of sound with some other alloy, but it wouldn't have the same density. So the bar would fail on weight or dimensions, making it an even more obvious fake. 

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:05 | 2822628 Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

How to use Ultrasound test -

The only cost effective material for creating an insert would be tungsten (W) as it has close to the same density as gold (Au). However, the speed of sound in W is~5000 m/s whereas in Au it is ~3000 m/s (a significant difference). I'd be quite confident that ultrasound would detect this.

Materials other than W would be easy to detect by measuring & weighing the bar (density would be wrong). Uranium is detectably less? dense by speed of sound like W. Plutonium is denser but more expensive than Au.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:31 | 2822787 elementary
elementary's picture

GE testing equipment?  That makes me feel so much better.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:57 | 2822507 duo
duo's picture

gold would have a unique set of density and elastic constant (which determines the US signature).  I don't believe they can alloy because of the huge difference in melting points.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:15 | 2822544 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Yes, you can find a metal that has the properties of gold.  It's name is gold.

Alchemy is what you are talking about.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:05 | 2822627 logicalman
logicalman's picture

I'm pretty sure it's the boundary between the two metals that shows up in ultrasound - be hard to avoid.


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 23:03 | 2823333 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

With a simple thickness gauge ($300) there will be some reflection from the internal boundary but most would probably make it to the other side of the bar and that's what it would read. But the wave will go about 2x as fast through the tungsten so you'll get an obviously wrong thinkess reading telling you it's fake.

On a more advanced system that has a display like a OBGYN ultrasound, yes you will actually see the internal boundaries between materials, and even tiny bubbles and such.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:46 | 2822484 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Here are the details for testing:


"With regard to identification of fakes, the most reliable non destructive testing method is ultrasonic and would easily show any insertions. XRF and other tests generally do not penetrate very far into the surface of a bar, so are only good for testing plated bars. This link provides an insight into the sort of testing performed at refineries and for those interested in the technical aspects here is a quote from KK&S Instruments:"

“The 1090 Flaw Detector allows you to look into the Bar for voids/defects as well as UT velocity which is determined the products elastic modulus i.e Tungsten Velocity is 5183-5460m/sec and Gold is 3,240m/sec. For example if you calibrate for Au then the testing Tungsten bar of the same thickness, the UT thickness would read approximately half the actual because of the speeding-up of the sound through the Tungsten.


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:58 | 2822621 Banjo
Banjo's picture

Absolutely correct, I have just purchased such a unit ($200) over the weekend. If I were a dealer I would pick up one of the high end models it might cost $2000-$4000 but it's esentially like looking into the bar. When you're talking buying and selling $20k bars or more on a daily basis it's a small investment.

There is an added benefit that you could provide gold scanning service for buyers also.


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 18:55 | 2822938 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Says the dealer has "40 years in the industry".  That can only mean one thing -- or several actually.  He was going to buy something for nothing (hence a thief).  He never learned how to test or didn't really want to test (hence incompetent).  Either way he is not professional in the ethical and competent senses of the word.   So a thief got taken.   Boo-hoo.  It's his customers I worry about.   The "one" ingot he found probably was amongst the others he sold as genuine.   Avoid at all costs -- and I do mean "costs".  Odds are he has no bars left in this weight since he sold them all quickly without checking (that way he can't feign knowledge).

As a side note, this operation of replacing the center of a genuine Swiss bar with the tungsten center is not a backyard hillbilly thing.  It takes skill and know-how on a grand scale.  And they didn't just do it to a few bars on a lark.  Set-up and execution takes labor and skill and big money backing to acquire the original bars.  The size bar was chosen in particular since the ownership and transfer of the originals in this size is not a regular bookkeeping entry.  These are basically fungible like coins even tho they do have serial numbers.  I've had several and can't tell you the numbers on any of them.   I will not deal in them again... ever.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:12 | 2822971 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

Rocky, how do you check gold maple leaves?

Weigh the same, non magnetic and same size. My friend has 10 of them that sound different 

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:28 | 2822999 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Cheap and easy way:

...or this is even cheaper and easier to handle:

which is what I use.

and for reference:

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:00 | 2822516 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

Another point.  Who takes a $17,000+  gold bar and tests it with what looks to have been a 1/4" or larger drill bit, a lack of patience while using momma's Black & Decker?


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:20 | 2822556 Sofa King
Sofa King's picture

Somebody who probably got a call telling him he was taken for a ride. What if it was an authentic bar? You just drilled out a couple of hundred dollars in gold. Nah, there's more to this story. We'll hear as much about the truth as we did with those Bearer Bonds in Europe.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:56 | 2822708 ZeroSpread
ZeroSpread's picture

Side note: Why are there two different serial numbers in two pictures of the same bar?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:57 | 2823041 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

And since when does gold look like brass?

To life, to life, L'Chaim!

L'Chaim, L'Chaim, to life!

May all your futures be pleasant ones, not like the present ones,


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:02 | 2822720 Unbezahlbar
Unbezahlbar's picture

I just happened to walk by the drill section at the local hardware store in the "jewelry district' and all the drills and drill bits are sold out!


[just kidding]

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:14 | 2823065 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture


For one:  Kitco, one of the largest bullion dealers, does.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:50 | 2822690 Canadian Dirtlump
Canadian Dirtlump's picture

I agree on the fact that the story smells. HOw any big swingin dick who lays out 15-20k at a time for a gold bar would whip out his drillpress before he utilized a non destructive method or has his dealer do so at least to me is confusing.

I would not be one bit surprised if this story and the many to come are designed to scare the shit out of people who are in gold, scare the shit out of people thinking about getting into gold and make ETFs look like a more palatable  alternative.

My personal opinion is you have bullion bank vaults, and central bank vaults full of salted gold bars and this is a smoke screen to keep people more interested in paper than physical.

Thankfully since I'm so forgetful and always lose the bullion I buy, I stick with 1 ounce coins.


WIllard Romney is right I guess... those goddamned russians are the world's greatest menace lmao.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:05 | 2822723 Unbezahlbar
Unbezahlbar's picture

agree...this guy smells fishy to me also.


Mon, 09/24/2012 - 03:57 | 2823575 Anasteus
Anasteus's picture

Thanks for the heads up, seek! I've found a very helpful article addressing this solution in detail. All necessary to know is here: Using an Ultrasonic Thickness Gauge to Detect Fake Silver.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 09:55 | 2824058 passwordis
passwordis's picture

  I agree!  The way this,and the previous story is worded is enough to give you pause for thought. I find that when they run these scare stories, whether the issue is vaccines the economy or the latest middle eastern boogiman, they write as if their audiance consists of to 12 year olds.

"Fadl became suspicious when he offered the salesman a deep discount for the investment-grade gold bars and he quickly accepted it, a source tells The Post."


So the the Columbia University graduate with a master’s degree in chemical engineering, and who has more than 40 years in the industry, thought it was suspicous but purchased four or five 10 oz bars of gold anyway.


 Come on!!!!  Who's buying this?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:15 | 2822423 unrulian
unrulian's picture

just got back from there... checked you's ok

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 05:53 | 2823645 Bahamas
Bahamas's picture


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:37 | 2822136 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Not as serious as the customers of said PM warehouse/bank/supplier screaming for custody.  Human Psychology vs. basic Metallurgy.  If the curiosity that obviously enveloped the merchants spreads from 47th to Liberty Street, there could be issues...

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:34 | 2822461 max2205
max2205's picture

I heard the sound of a lot of drills humming

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:52 | 2822496 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Cue the "Hitler Discovers his Gold is Full of Tungsten" video in 3... 2... 1...

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:38 | 2822137 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

Hey Laws, looks like it was just reported in the article above.  Sheesh.

But really, though, about the tungsten...I wonder if this will be the beginning of a movement away from larger (more than 1oz) bars, as people question their authenticity.  That could spill over into institutions questioning the gold backing up any "allocated" funds they've invested in.

In short, I myself have always preferred coins (Maples, Eagles, Krugerrands...the usual suspects) in my possession over a bar that somebody else tells me they have safely stored for me.  If more people lean toward the same way of thinking, and prefer to buy physical, would this perhaps be a catalyst for a move higher in the spot price?  Once gold breaks through $2000, it'll be silver's time to play catch-up.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:56 | 2822201 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

I buy brand new gold from the Bank of Nova Scotia. They have their corporate logo right on the 10 oz bars.

If they sold me tungsten, I could sue them broke

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:08 | 2822244 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

aannndddd, they've gone.


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:21 | 2822283 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Vaporized, babe, vaporized.


Folks can't take that extra step and see this for what it is.

Go for the exit, just don't look like you are going for the exit...

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:27 | 2822301 CPL
CPL's picture

Graceful exit to join another engagement elsewhere...

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:07 | 2822405 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture's gone...

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:48 | 2822353 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

But think of all the shiny lightbulbs we can make with all dat tungsten.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:36 | 2822465 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Ah, but the gubbermint is trying to outlaw tungsten in lightbulbs. Maybe that's why it's turning up in gold bars. Gotta do something with all that excess tungsten, ya know.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:37 | 2822802 Drachma
Drachma's picture

They told us for years they were doing just fine. Trust me they're broke. Feds in Canada gave them, the Royal Bank of Canada and Bank of Montreal, among others about 114B. $3400 for every man woman and child in the good old Northern Soviet Block. I think they got some TARP money also. No way Scotia has the physical. Remember this:

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:18 | 2822267 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Expect a raise in premiums for the 1oz. and below gold bars, coins and rounds as demand for these products will surely be going up. I'd also say that demand for physical silver will be ramping up as well, but even here, large oz. bars and rounds of silver will probably be reduced just because of the fear factor. I'll be looking foward to seeing some upcoming sales figures for ASEs and Maples.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:15 | 2822547 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Have no idea if it's true, but was told the other day BNS is a Rothchild bank. If it's true, good luck lawyering up on that one.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:25 | 2822774 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

At this point, all banks are Rothschild banks.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:15 | 2822265 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

This all smells of propaganda.  Let's see, this story comes from New York where the Hassidic community controls the market.  Yeah, we be gettin' over on the Hassids.  Gimme a break. Sinclair expressed doubts.

I'm gonna give up 'risky' physical so I can hold a warehouse receipt on 'real' tungsten filled bars?

Counterfeit is a real issue, but is this a real story?  I wonder.


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:17 | 2822272 kindape
kindape's picture

What if central banks are behind it? Well funded, buy up real gold, replace with tungsten. Get blessing from govt. And sow seeds of worry in precious metals markets at same time. Brilliant!

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:12 | 2822415 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

Central banks are likely behind it. The US depository will not even let people get close to their/"our" gold with a scale--not even for a "random" sampling. That should give people the chilllllz.


Oh--that is unless you them...HAHAHA! Now thats stand up!

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:49 | 2822605 alfred b.
alfred b.'s picture


     Yes, banking cartel might be behind it in order to promote paper gold and/or gld, and of course, their fiat paper!

      Buy physical gold and silver!


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 18:11 | 2822876 capitallosses
capitallosses's picture

"Now thats stand up!"


NO ... that's bend over!

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 23:09 | 2823340 dryam
dryam's picture

Money printing is getting ready to go exponential.  This is the time TPTB need to cast doubts about PM's.  It just takes a small critical mass to be reached for a massive loss of faith in fiat across the general population.  Only a few people need to smell smoke in the theater for shit to hit the fan.  TPTB knows that smoke (massive money printing) is coming so their plan is to confuse people to where the safe exits might be.  The befuddled people will decide to sit tight in the burning theater.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:38 | 2822333 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

silver is the one with the catching up to do. 500 an ounce sounds about right to me. as for coins if it ain't Morgans it's the US mint.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:49 | 2822358 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I prefer Canadian Mints, there's something about that extra 9 that makes me smile.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:57 | 2822206 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

It is easy to find who is behind. If we follow the organization who was ferociously collecting incandescent light bulbs and selling on discount compact florescent light bulb in the name of environment.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:53 | 2822613 Banjo
Banjo's picture

Ultrasonic thickness gague meter. Will help stamp this out.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 16:52 | 2822698 Frozen IcQb
Frozen IcQb's picture

Deflect, Delay, Deny, Discount, Deceive, Divide, Dulcify, Discredit, Destroy, Deal

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 17:17 | 2822760 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

law its being reported where it matters...this is made for internet viewers...your pm owners are not watching t.v.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 18:35 | 2822916 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I have an even more ominous notion, just HOW long , and how many of these have been sold prior to the first bar discovery?.

Could be thousands.Watch the prems on coins go WAY up.

As I expect this to cause a major shortage soon.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:33 | 2822121 withnmeans
withnmeans's picture

NidStyles, I think your close but not close enough. Yes a rather LARGE operation, think of a GOVERNMENT.

They would do this to keep the people from buying it, put the scare into them so to speak. What better way to frighten people away from PM's...

Carry on !

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:43 | 2822153 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

While it is possible that some unknown percentage of GLD's assets are probably tungsten, what is one hundred percent certain is that their common stock shares are real... so you have that at least going for you if your a GLD investor.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:36 | 2822327 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

John Paulson just realized he owns 5% of the tungsten market.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:41 | 2822337 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

more like .00000000001 percent actually. "AND THAT'S A LOT OF TUNGSTEN!"

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:49 | 2822357 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

So it's not enough that GLD probably holds Tungsten but are you implying DTCC would counterfeit GLD common shares as well?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:22 | 2822438 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

and if that's true can they re-rehypothicate the value of those counterfeit GLD shares that are backed by physical tungsten ?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:52 | 2822188 bigbwana
bigbwana's picture

Think Illuminati in their evil quest for a NWO. The most powerful organisation in our history. Until the Galactic Federation came along and thundered mighty piss on their parade. I'm so happy!

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:10 | 2822252 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture



Bet upon Rothchilds involvement.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:50 | 2822362 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I would have thought my avatar would have indicated which Mint I was hinting at.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 23:10 | 2823349 dryam
dryam's picture

Money printing is getting ready to go exponential.  This is the time TPTB need to cast doubts about PM's. 

It just takes a small critical mass to be reached for a massive loss of faith in fiat across the general population.  Only a few people need to smell smoke in the theater for shit to hit the fan.  TPTB knows that smoke (massive money printing) is coming so their plan is to confuse people to where the safe exits might be.  The befuddled people will decide to sit tight in the burning theater.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:45 | 2822145 JohnKozac
JohnKozac's picture

All the words are spelled correctly on the the Nigerians are in the clear.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:13 | 2822261 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

You haven't read the email where your Lost Uncle's er Secret Government Stash er Widow's Gold is ready to be picked up once you pay the 5,000 dollar shipping fee.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:03 | 2822517 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 15:02 | 2822518 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

your uncle too?  I'm so sad about uncle john, but I can hardly wait for the mail.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:39 | 2822330 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

But the serial numbers on the broken bars don`t match as
in the previous 1 bar fake story, so the story has been upgraded into a 10 bar fake story. Bullshit."A second 47th Street refiner" . Make me laugh , I know 47th street business since the 80ties and if I bring scrap to a
real refiner in some industrial area far off I have to wait and watch for an hour as the actual melting is done.
10 oz is an off size that I would always had have melted , most bars come in metric measures or 400 oz good delivery.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:37 | 2822468 giggler123
giggler123's picture

Funny last time I saw an American Gold Double Eagle it said "In God we trust" and the last time I got a scam, Nigerian email they ended something similar words...

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 19:34 | 2823009 Mesquite
Mesquite's picture

...spelled correctly...

Except the fineness...Catch it..??

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:42 | 2822155 stocktivity
stocktivity's picture

Best to stick with old silver coins dated before 1964 with some wear to them. Can't counterfeit those too easy and it wouldn't be worth the cost and effort.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 12:55 | 2822199 ATM
ATM's picture

perhaps if one believes silver is money, but I don't.


It's gold for me, although I do own some silver.


Sun, 09/23/2012 - 13:14 | 2822263 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Gold is for Kings, Silver for the comman man. Yes, both are money.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 14:35 | 2822463 Yardfarmer
Yardfarmer's picture

...and debt is for slaves. and that is someone else's money. haha

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 18:12 | 2822879 ATM
ATM's picture

I don't see the central banks buying silver. I wonder why that is?

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:01 | 2823043 johny2
johny2's picture

the central banks are not relevant to the question is the silver money or not. The central banks are going to fail, and the silver is going to soar in its desirability. The question is when, and how is it going to play out. The great value of gold is not in question but at the moment and this price, available silver is much rarer than gold. but in any case, congratulations to you for having gold, even though you will probably lose it in boating accident.

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 20:31 | 2823083 delacroix
delacroix's picture

 @ atm that would instantly expose the short supply

Sun, 09/23/2012 - 23:37 | 2823390 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

We make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

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