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Get Your Fake Tungsten-Filled Gold Coins Here

Tyler Durden's picture


In the aftermath of the recent stories about Tungsten-filled 10 ounce gold bars discovered in midtown Manhattan, there have been two broad sentiments expressed by the precious metals community: i) that this is as many have expected, and that of the physical inventory in circulation, much is fake (particularly that held in official hands, either via ETFs or in sovereign repositories which for various reasons still can not be publicly assayed) and ii) is the comfort that while it is relatively easy and cost-effective to use tungsten to falsify larger gold bars and bricks, those who own primarily gold coins are safe as for some reason, it is less economic, feasible or widespread to counterfeit smaller precious metal denominations. Sadly, while i) may be true, ii) is patently false. The proof comes courtesy of a firm called ChinaTungsten Online which proudly markets its broad "tungsten-alloy services" including, you guessed it, the gold plating of various tungsten formulations among them "gold" bricks, bars and, yes, coins. Oh did we mention a Chinese company openly advertizes its tungsten gold-plating and precious metals replication services, something which the tabloid media's CTRL-C/V majors openly mock as improbable conspiracy theory. Well, as they say, it is only conspiracy theory until it becomes conspiracy fact.

From the website's Tungsten Heavy Alloy Scan Gold Coin section:

Tungsten is the only lower value metal that has a specific density close enough to gold to fabricate passable counterfeit pieces of the same size and weight as genuine Pictures of tungsten fake gold coins and ingots. Over the years, there have been a few isolated reports of smaller tungsten fake gold coin found to have been drilled to remove some of the gold which was replaced with tungsten. However, tungsten fake gold coin is far more profitable to fabricate larger original bars of tungsten that are then scanning gold.


Because the existence of counterfeit tungsten fake gold coin could have such a huge impact on the financial markets, there is a huge potential for deception and misinformation to be passed around. Be very careful about automatically believing any story you may hear. For your own protection, tungsten fake gold coin would be better to take physical possession of the smaller sizes of tungsten fake gold coins and now, and know that what you own genuine solid tungsten fake gold coin. [ZH: reread that sentence: "genuine solid tungsten fake gold coin"]


Notice: Chinatungsten Online (Xiamen) Manu.& Sales Corp. is a very professional and serious company, specializing in manufacturing and selling tungsten fake gold coin and other tungsten related products for more than two decades. We are a professional tungsten fake gold coin manufacturer. Our tungsten gold fake coin is only for souvenir and decoration purpose. Here we declare: Please do not use our tungsten fake gold coin and other fake gold coin products for any illegal purpose. We can provide all kinds of tungsten fake gold coin as your requirements.Our tungsten fake gold coin products are qualified.


Pictures of Tungsten Fake Gold Coins:

Therefore, if you are interest in tungsten fake gold coin, please feel free to contact, or telephone 86 592 512 9696.

Well at least the company that markets itself as proving "all kinds of tungsten fake gold coin" has extensive disclaimers. The point is that anyone wishing to, can procure tungsten-plated gold coins with one simple telephone call.

Of course, for those for whom gold coins are not enough, the Chinese firm is happy to provide every other imaginable formulation. Such as Tungsten fake gold bars:

Detecting a high-quality tungsten fake gold bar would be extremely difficult. It would likely require significant and material alterations to the bar being tested and this would negatively affect the marketability if its hallmark veracity were vindicated. Some applications require the tungsten to be fake gold. The main reasons for tungsten fake gold bar are to protect the wire from corrosion or to solder it to other metals.


Besides, tungsten alloy products could also made as tungsten fake gold bar which posses a better electric conductivity, and contribute greatly to the world industry development. Also tungsten fake gold saves the energy and poses no pollution threat to the environment and thus to achieve a sustainable development.


Notice: Chinatungsten Online (Xiamen) Manu.&Sales Corp. is a very professional and serious company, specializing in manufacturing and selling tungsten fake gold and other tungsten related products for more than two decades. Our tungsten fake gold product is only for souvenir and decoration purpose. Here we declare: Please do not use our gold-plated tungsten alloy products for any illegal purpose.


Pictures of Tungsten Fake Gold Products

There are many more options, for those who are so inclined, to reinforce their inventory of gold-plated tungsten products on the company's website. And naturally, in addition to the bolded applications of tungsten gold bars, one can conceive of some more. Especially in verticals in which the actual end product does not exist, and all that does exist is a receipt claiming gold is at the end of a rehypotehcation chain. One wonder how many invoices CIF Liberty 33 or various other gold ETF secret "warehouses" one could find upon rummaging through the garbage behind the firm's headquarters in Xiamen.

With all that said, perhaps the best use of the abovementioned services would be for a contingency case in which the government of country X, Y and/or Z were to decide to replicate a certain 1930's executive order in a global coordinated attempt to devalue the fiat system not on a relative basis, something which fiat printers are more than capable of, but on an absolute basis by confiscating all the gold in circulation. It just might make such a confiscation more complicated if all the usual suspects were to hand over to said governments not gold but gold-plated Tungsten, which in turn would make the endgame, i.e. the terminal currency devaluation of fiat, that much more problematic.

It would be truly ironic if in the end the same Tungsten that is now the bane of precious metals dealers everywhere would be the reason why central bank X, Y and/or Z was unable to destroy its currency sufficient fast.

Note: Zero Hedge does not advise, encourage nor endorse its readers to hypothetically exchange their gold inventory for a comparable but worthless yet prominently positioned inventory of "rehypothecated" pseudo-equivalent products - note that only bankers have been known to rehypothecate valuable assets into worthless liabilities - in advance of an even more hypothetical physical gold confiscation order endorsed by the authorities.

h/t SilverDoctors


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Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:37 | 2826047 Aziz
Aziz's picture

+16 trillion for whoever invents a quick, clear and simple way of differentiating real gold from gold-wrapped tungsten.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:39 | 2826057 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

There's an app for that (well, there may be soon)

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:45 | 2826077 knukles
knukles's picture

I todja!
Shit's all over the place and them bars them bars them salted bars made at the re-fine-er-eeeeee

The whole LBMA research and testing methodology is a leaky as my old granddad's dinky.  Game-able Deluxe!

More will be revealed.....


I mean so these guys gold plate crap.
I got my one year coin gold plated, wore it as a medallion for years......

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:47 | 2826099 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Chinese perfected the art of faking to the point where fake gold bricks are cheaper than gold spray paint in USA.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:01 | 2826164 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Oh boy... some serious beginning of the end shit here.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:02 | 2826167 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

this is where reputable dealers come in.  by reputable I mean buys directly from the us mint.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:05 | 2826176 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

iPhone 6 with a built in ultrasound app.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:29 | 2826249 Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

Oh puhleeze, since when did the Chinese become master craftsmen? I would expect these fake gold coins to be about the same quality of a fake louis vuitton bag or a fake rolex.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:39 | 2826284 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Thanks!  That goldmoney is the exact video I was looking for and I couldn't remember where I saw it.  I think there is another without the narration/voice over.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:28 | 2826408 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

I buy all my Gold Bars from a reputable supplier; Vladimir CNC Milling and Foundry Co supply very affordable 10/20oz & 1/5/10kg Gold Bars out of Vladivostok. He prefers to sell over eBay and has only a PO Box number address, which is really convenient for me anyway.

Unlike most here, I haven't had a boating accident, nor do I intend having one in the future. If required, I am more than happy to sell all my premo' Gold Bars at market price to any Government wishing to confiscate them, as I'm a patriotic kinda guy.

I tend to see the glass as half full and look for a bright side. At least confiscation will allow me to pay off my huge mortgage and loans which seem to be getting larger and larger with each passing year, as I keep buying disressed farmland, works of art, and vintage sports cars.

Like I said, I'm pretty fucking patriotic!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:30 | 2826447 KickIce
KickIce's picture

Anf they'll be more than happy to give you green toilet paper in return.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:18 | 2826577 krispkritter
Tue, 09/25/2012 - 00:37 | 2826960 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

As I sit here watching the world burn down (flames temporarily suppressed, in part, by the patent pending "To Infinity & Beyond Fire & Riot Suppression System," (aka electronic fiat printing presses at central fractional reserve houses of fiatski multiplication) via swiping of EBT cards, SNAP, Social Security, SSD/SSDI and the equivalent programs/subsidies and captured "sovereign" nation-state bread&circus in Europe and other "developed" nations), it has suddenly dawned on me that if I really had an iota of intelligence, I would have been in the tungsten business many years ago, bitchez.

Oh well, I missed that ship, but I need to hurry and stock up on Krugmanrands* before they're all sold out, too. Shit's getting real, yo!


*Krugmanrand: A gold colored powder-coated round, composed of 10% tin and 90% nano-coated bullshit particles, bearing the slogan "In Diocletian We Trust" and "To Infinity & Beyond!" on one side, alongside "CTRL+P," and having the other side enscribed with "What, Me Worry?" alongside an engraved likeness of one Ben S. Bernanke (Shakey McShakester).

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 01:44 | 2827020 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

About the only thing left for them to fake is Chinese people.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 02:14 | 2827041 Au Member
Au Member's picture

flexural rigidity. tungsten is stiff , gold is bendy.
place a dial test indicator under bar,coin etc. place a known weight in the centre and measure deflection. get the book roarks stress calculations and see how much your bar, coin should deflect under this known load from your weight. this will allow you to derive the youngs modulus of the metal. tungsten filled coins and bars will be immeditaely obvious.

anyway all this is a psyop to discourage gold ownership. bit like the toyota car brand assassination a few years back.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 03:04 | 2827068 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

So, I can get a 400oz gold plated door stop?


Tue, 09/25/2012 - 03:05 | 2827069 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

So, now I can actually afford to throw gold bars through people's windows I don't like.


Tue, 09/25/2012 - 03:54 | 2827095 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

So now I'm going to be giving 400oz gold bars away at weddings.

Booking fee only $2,000.


Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:22 | 2826589 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

Green toilet paper for a yellow paper weight...sounds like a fair trade.

Mon, 10/01/2012 - 13:38 | 2845713 passwordis
passwordis's picture

 But it does not work that way.  The price the government will give you for your gold will not be the market price. The market price will be set upwards AFTER they purchased your gold at a discount.

Mon, 10/01/2012 - 20:59 | 2847033 sabatwo
sabatwo's picture

at this point if      you use  a they will  buy your fake gold coin if it passes all three of its tests for gold spot price.

guess they see fake coins as a long way off..Website

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:02 | 2826538 drchris
drchris's picture

Gold has half the resistivity of tungston.  It should very simple to pass a current through it to test for fakes. 

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 22:04 | 2826682 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Nope.  You get a surface effect where most of the current moves along the outside of the bar, which is gold.  You would have to put a hell of a lot of current on it to detect tungsten, more than likely.

Ultrasonic is much simpler, cheaper, and less likely to cause a massive fire.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 23:49 | 2826914 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Yes, but with most of the ultrasonic testers, don't you run into some problems with the contours/uneven surfaces of coins?  The youtube videos, etc., all seem to deal with bars (i.e. flat surfaces).  I don't really see any of the handheld ultrasonic testers marketing themselves for gold/silver coinage.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 01:36 | 2827016 Popo
Popo's picture

I believe tungsten is very slightly radioactive. A highly sensitive test for radioactivity should do the trick. But how much does the plating shield the emissions is the next question...

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 04:02 | 2827104 TraitorsHang
TraitorsHang's picture

Good thought... But the gold plating would block alpha completely, and that masks the decay mode of the one naturally-occuring radioisotope:

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:08 | 3040274 cannonfodder
cannonfodder's picture

Some gold could be slightly radioactive too.  I recall nearly 30 years ago reading a news article about a man who couldn't wear his wedding ring because it caused a skin irritation.  Someone had recycled medical equipment including a radium needle and if he'd continued to wear his ring, likely would have developed bone cancer.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:11 | 3040275 cannonfodder
cannonfodder's picture

With ultrasonic, shouldn't it be possible to determine a transition from one metal to another?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 04:12 | 2827109 TraitorsHang
TraitorsHang's picture

I think you're right. I buy US Eagles, and there isn't a flat-spot wider than a few mm. I think testing magnetic susceptibility and young's modulus (as another poster suggested) is the best route without expensive tools.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 08:53 | 2826990 drchris
drchris's picture

-deleted- No point in trying to educate in the comments section.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 00:08 | 2826940 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture



NOTHING was photographed by them.  I say someone gets their hand on these and post the quality of this shit.


Gold bars:




Tue, 09/25/2012 - 01:59 | 2827031 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Well, I know for a fact that the image of the gold bar filled vault is stolen from the audit of Fort Knox done back in 1974, bitchez.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 08:58 | 2827448 fattail
fattail's picture

more reason to buy silver.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:30 | 2826253 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

If you call the phone number in the article a recording says "Hello, you've reached Jamie Dimon, please leave your name and Swiss Bank Account number after the tone..."

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 23:56 | 2826921 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

"...and I'll get back to you after I get done blowing Satan."

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:30 | 2826255 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

"genuine solid tungsten fake gold coin"

"genuine bankster-approved fake birth certificate"

It just keeps coming...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:54 | 2826661 Whiner
Whiner's picture

The the fake Social Security and Draft Cards. You're ready to run for POTUS.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 02:02 | 2827032 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

This Chinese place is where The Hon. Jon S. Corzine got MF Global's Primary Dealer license?

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 23:31 | 2826880 Cosimo de Medici
Cosimo de Medici's picture

You mean they say they buy from the US Mint.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 19:01 | 2830089 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture



More Fake Gold Bars Discovered


Ten more bars of fake gold have shown up. The story is here. They are limited to PAMP bars, which are issued in France.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:43 | 2826491 Montecarlo
Montecarlo's picture

They're even ISO9000!  

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 22:32 | 2826754 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

That too might be fake...

Just sayin'...

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 19:15 | 2879116 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

In Beijing young women with babies at their breast (so that the police will leave them alone) stand at subway exits near a University, touting " Want fake documents?" and pimping the phone numbers of people who falsify documents for a living.

Oh, in China...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:44 | 2826078 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture


It''s not rocket science to spot fakes:

"With regard to identification of fakes, the most reliable non destructive testing method is ultrasonic and would easily show any insertions. XRF and other tests generally do not penetrate very far into the surface of a bar, so are only good for testing plated bars. This link provides an insight into the sort of testing performed at refineries and for those interested in the technical aspects here is a quote from KK&S Instruments:

“The 1090 Flaw Detector allows you to look into the Bar for voids/defects as well as UT velocity which is determined the products elastic modulus i.e Tungsten Velocity is 5183-5460m/sec and Gold is 3,240m/sec. For example if you calibrate for Au then the testing Tungsten bar of the same thickness, the UT thickness would read approximately half the actual because of the speeding-up of the sound through the Tungsten.”

GoldMoney also has a good video on the ultrasonic testing they perform on their bars. Interestingly, they only found ten bars out of 1,377 with “inconclusive scans were identified but assays of these bars confirmed they contained the gold content stamped on the bar.” [link] These bars are 400oz professional market bars and is yet more proof that fakes are not common.


Investors buying recognised brands from trustworthy dealers should not have any cause for concern. For those looking for more information on the various brands and bars and coins available, and what they should look like and their specifications, this website is a good reference site to bookmark."

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:49 | 2826100 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

A good gold dealer would have one of these and run gold through the scan before it hit your pocket. That is where we are going I think and it will be game over for this fake shit.



Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:23 | 2826232 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

this stuff would be good to have in a decoy safe if you are burglarized.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:33 | 2826269 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Why not just a note that says "You're shit out of luck unless you have scuba gear."

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 04:33 | 2827124 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Load up the safe with these...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:11 | 2826389 seek
seek's picture

I ran across these guys a couple years ago, and thought the same thing, but worried that if the fakes were good enough, a single mistake could kill your credibility among dealers.

It does seem tempting, though -- thugs of any color, particularly the kind of color that might have access to records indicating a purchase -- would fall for it at least temporarily.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:23 | 2826236 VonManstein
VonManstein's picture

all the (coin and bar) images look as fake as there gold is suppose to be.

Why no real pictures of finnished product??

site is registered up untill 2012 only and the gold products do not exist on previous versions of the site??

Im not saying this is impossible, it certainly is possible and profitable. But why the rediculous imagery on the site? Its all a bit fishy.. can you realy fake krugers legaly? and mark them with "south afika"

fuck knows but i really hate this shit

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:03 | 2826371 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Coins no.Bars yes.Big problem with coins.

From an engineering viewpoint these would be prohitively expensive to do to a qualiy that was

not easily seen with the naked eye.Undersized stamping dies is just the begining of the process.

Stamping tungsten in  a power press in any quantity is a nightmare.

Then you have the deposition differences at edges when plating to overcome.

Maybe something to worry about when gold goes over $5k per ounce.

Bullshit on coins,bars are simple in comparison.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:29 | 2826445 TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

Ok... I got the guy... keep your hands where we can see em'

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:08 | 2826552 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Just saying.Used to do titanium blanking for impellors because BAE couldn't do it.            .

Titanium is hard,but tungsten is a lot harder.

Titaniium used to fuck the tools and the power presses really quick and that was 16g swg.

Titanium and tungsten work harden as well

Not even sure what material you could use for the dies for tungsten..

The tools you would break even at Chinese rates,no way.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:31 | 2826610 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

What about small Bars (PAMP 1oz and below)???

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:50 | 2826655 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

No die stamping required,and the problem of massive over deposition at sharp edges when plating,

is far less visble..

Would be the way to go.Could make that pay at current gold prices.especially paying

Chinese pay rates.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 22:09 | 2826693 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

I reckon small bars won't be a problem unless Gold doubled. Milling out a large Gold bar, inserting a blank and resealing the original (budgo) packaging is one thing, those PAMP and Perth Mint bubble cards would be fiddly as hell.

I've seen weight irregularities in large Silver bars before so I went to Eagles. As for Gold, small coinage/bars are the way to go.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 00:40 | 2826979 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

At the rate Buzz Bernanke is going, Ca$h for Tungsten shops will be sprouting up the world over.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 22:07 | 2826690 AGuy
AGuy's picture

They could be hot pressed or sintered. My understanding is Tungsten Carbide milling bits are sinstered into rod form.

Another method might be bonding gold to tungsten rounds. Press two disks of pure gold into the coin head an tail then bond the to a tungsten coin, then plate the entire coin.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 00:36 | 2826974 defender
defender's picture

Most tungsten is made from sintered powder with a filler material.  Military uses cobalt for their tungsten bullets, but they are complaining that this makes them poisonous (stupid, isn't it).  Most industrial uses have either nickle or copper as the filler, depending on what the final use is.  Some examples:

This allows "easy" forming to any shape that a person desires, including coins.  As someone mentioned above, the fake would be harder to detect if it was a tungsten gold alloy.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:45 | 2826496 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

Like...ummmm...couldn't we just have one of those crotch sniffing TSA scanners tuned or recalibrated to look into these bars?  Might be some real value generated for the American people.

You know that they will be scanning for gold leaving the country once the capital controls hit.  This would give them a little practice beforehand.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:51 | 2826109 john39
john39's picture

it does seem like a ploy to keep the masses from buying physical... keep the ponzi going one more day.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:16 | 2826207 Irelevant
Irelevant's picture

It`s a double edged sword, only things that are rare are counterfeited, so it makes gold look valuable to the masses and scarce. At the present time there is no "buying by the masses" of gold. The folks that are buying gold like crazy are the bankers. They will control the new currency system using the gold they are accumulating now. I have lost all my PMs in a tragic boat accident several years ago, however I fear that small time investors will have to give the gold up when the government shows up.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:48 | 2826505 dryam
dryam's picture

Money printing is getting ready to go exponential.  This is the time TPTB need to cast doubts about PM's. 

It just takes a small critical mass to be reached for a massive loss of faith in fiat across the general population.  Only a few people need to smell smoke in the theater for shit to hit the fan.  TPTB knows that smoke (massive money printing) is coming so their plan is to confuse people to where the safe exits might be.  The befuddled people will decide to sit tight in the burning theater.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:08 | 2826554 calgal
calgal's picture

That was a brilliant post
Thank you

Everone keeps forgetting about the Sentinel ruling which in effect makes it legal to steal your funds ala MF Global

Jim Willie is predicting through his sources that Morgan Stanley is going to be the next Lehmans.

This will cause the loss of faith you're talking about

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 00:14 | 2826952 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Not only did a lost my PMs in that boating accident, but a fucking virus stole my bitcoin.  Long live fiat, I guess.  



Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:15 | 2826572 RiskAverseAlertBlog
RiskAverseAlertBlog's picture

Yeah, and wouldn't it be funny if Buffett owned ChinaTungsten Online.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 02:45 | 2827060 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

It would be like a free meal when you've already ate.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:22 | 2826194 Glass Steagall
Glass Steagall's picture

Junk silver, bitchez!

The new gold.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:38 | 2826288 SgtSchultz
SgtSchultz's picture

Bullets for barter bitchez!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:39 | 2826294 Heyoka Bianco
Heyoka Bianco's picture

Sorry, G-S, you were rescinded over a decade ago because you were already "dead". Biwwy Cwinton sez so!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 22:06 | 2826689 minus dog
minus dog's picture

I suggest checking out some of the coin collector forums in regards to fake silver coins.  The chinese are cranking them out in pretty ridiculous volumes, weathering and all.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 04:31 | 2827122 overqualified
Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:45 | 2826310 Praetorian Guard
Praetorian Guard's picture

Hell, even if you checked doesn't mean that for a large order someone pulls a switch-a-roo at the last minute...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:48 | 2826321 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

Amazon has several UTG units listed, does anyone have a recommendation on the most cost effective unit?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 07:42 | 2827247 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

"It's not rocket science to spot fakes:"

Exactly. Thank you. Quite frankly, I don't understand the headless-chicken madness every time a fake is spotted. Fakes and clipped cheats have been around since the Greeks and the Romans started minting.

I went the other way to most recommendations and bought the majority of gold in weights heavier than 10oz., because for me it is much more easier to do the specific gravity test on them - the heavier the sample, the larger the deviation. 

Years ago, I read about a reputable US refinery getting an order for 1.3 to 1.5 million tungsten 400oz "London Good delivery" size bars during the Clinton era, and then Felix Salmon at Reuters picked up the story this year. For that reason alone, I wouldn't touch a 400oz with a bargepole, but these big bars very rarely end up in private hands anyway. It is these bars that never see the light of day, but whose ownership is transferred from time to time on paper only which need to be investigated and are highly suspect. Hence the old ZH warning: Always ask for physical delivery.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:57 | 2826113 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

deleted: already covered

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:05 | 2826173 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Any 1/10 ounce gold coin is easy enough to bend with ones hands (or bite test).  Try that with wolfram.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:54 | 2826241 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Just went gold prospecting this weekend (not much luck, just some color). I found myself wishing I had a metal detector like the big boys do. The technology is getting quite advanced in distinguishing metal types and amounts. My mind went to a scenario of somebody driving a couple detector equiped vechicles on each side of the Fed building and quantifying just how much is underground. I think this is doable. It is certainly doable to test a coin or bar to get a reading good enough to tell solid gold from gold plated, quick, cheap and non-destructive. 

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:31 | 2826260 margaris
margaris's picture

Can't we just make tungsten another precious metal and "peg" it to gold?

All tungsten in the world is 3 million tons. So it's not THAT common...

Ok, it will make china absolute master off the world, well...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:39 | 2826293 At120
At120's picture

Besides drilling, the only other option is to buy a Leeb gage to differentiate gold from gold wrapped tungsten.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:12 | 2826392 seek
seek's picture

Uh, there's other options. Like UTG.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 03:55 | 2827096 TraitorsHang
TraitorsHang's picture

Not sure why you got junked. That might do the trick if the gold plating was thin.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:01 | 2826361 kraschenbern
kraschenbern's picture

Acoustic testing and/or hardness testing and/or volume-weight testing

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:20 | 2826413 TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

The deWalt cordless drill and 1/4 inch bit.... instant results!


Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:47 | 2826502 DosZap
DosZap's picture

+16 trillion for whoever invents a quick, clear and simple way of differentiating real gold from gold-wrapped tungsten.

Here it is, ain't cheap, but cost less than a 1/4oz Eagle.


Be sure and click on the PDF Specs download.

It is variable to around 9000m/s, and Au is I think 5000 m/s.

ONLY one problem, you must have coins that are FLAT in at least one section a 1/4" wide,or the probe will not work properly.

Covers most all 1oz,except Eagles,50Peso's etc, w a ton of fancy designs.

But the Krands,Aussie coins,Mapes all have room.

Msg me for where to send the 16T.(((:

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:11 | 2826559 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

@Aziz - X ray flourescence spectroscopy.  Been there, done that.  K lines from tungsten are different.

You don't have to put a mark on the object, but you need some damn loud high energy X rays to do that job.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:32 | 2826614 lastboyscout
lastboyscout's picture

1/16 inch drill bit. Thank you very much. A wire transfer will be sufficient.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 22:24 | 2826724 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

Silver is the winner by tko.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 23:38 | 2826898 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Yeah, well how good are they are they at plating gold bars with tungsten?  

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 00:09 | 2826941 Two Towers AU AG
Two Towers AU AG's picture

A very long time back a wise man named Archmides stepped in a tub of water with his birthday suit on..he was trying to figure out if the kings crown was made of pure gold.

I guess a Jug of water would perfectly do the trick. No need to wait for a app or any new instrument.

You first have to find one ounce of real solid gold to set the benchmark. That my friend is the difficult part.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 03:52 | 2827094 TraitorsHang
TraitorsHang's picture

For a large sample, this will probably suffice (assuming tungsten is the only impurity). The problem is that the densities are so similar that volume measurements of the required accuracy are *very* demanding. Dropping the coin into a graduated cylinder full of fluid (even a fluid that exhibits a near-zero meniscus) would not give you the three significant figures you need to detect the difference.

Measuring mass to this percision is easy.
Volume is the problem.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 00:39 | 2826978 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

The drill press is your friend.


Tue, 09/25/2012 - 03:48 | 2827092 TraitorsHang
TraitorsHang's picture

Take advantage of the differential in magnetic susceptibility:

The machine to measure this is called an Evans Balance:

This will work on crown gold as well, as the alloy components of crown gold are all negative. Given the fact that tungsten is paramagnetic (weakly attracted to magnets) and Au/Ag/Cu is diamagnetic (weakly repulsed), building a machine to test this should be within the grasp of any well-rounded engineer.

I've got too much shit going on right now to build one. But there you have it.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 07:55 | 2827273 Cobalt Shiva
Cobalt Shiva's picture

Ultrasound will reveal the discontinuity between the gold and the tungsten.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:39 | 2826058 runlevel
runlevel's picture

UT OH "UGLYDOG" wasnt given credit! 

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:41 | 2826065 evolutionx
evolutionx's picture

Did JPMorgan Host a Secret Meeting on Libor, With 7 Members of the NY Fed


JPMorgan Chase, the Wall Street mega bank now under criminal probes for losing billions of FDIC insured deposits in risky derivative trades, for years has been one of the dinner hosts of an unseemly industry trade and lobby group established by none other than the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, its own regulator.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:41 | 2826068 wankerBanker
wankerBanker's picture

I plan to buy a ton of these tungsten pieces, write puts/calls on my inventory and sell them to JPM...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:42 | 2826069 nmewn
nmewn's picture

What fresh new hell is this?

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:47 | 2826093 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

yeah this fuckin sucks. I don't have the time or the expertise to spend all day trying to spot fakes. I buy from a reputable dealer but at the end of the day I could have those gold chocolates and I would not know.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:56 | 2826142 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I hear you. Good Lord one of the things about being pulled out of the matrix is I have to question everything. ..... and now this.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:00 | 2826162 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Interesting Doc, I bet this is what Tyler was referring to last night.

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — The Federal Reserve could expand its stimulus package to include assets other than mortgage-backed securities if the U.S. economy fails to respond to its latest effort to jump-start the economy.

Reuters The Federal Reserve building in Washington. “Unlike our past asset-purchase programs, this one doesn’t have a preset expiration date,” said San Francisco Fed President John Williams at a speech at the City Club on Monday. “Instead, it is explicitly linked to what happens with the economy.” At its monetary-policy meeting on Sept. 13, the U.S. central bank said it would buy $40 billion worth of mortgage-backed securities per month as part of a stimulus plan colloquially known as QE3 — for Round 3 of quantitative easing. “We might even expand our purchases to include other assets,” he said.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:11 | 2826189 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

We are Japan. Soon they will be buying REITs and then stocks. I read a paper where they suggested the fed should be a buyer and a seller of gold at a premium to the current price. This in theory would put a lid in gold. I don't believe it would work with the Fed's propensity to print, but its an interesting theory nonetheless.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:17 | 2826211 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I am not a Japanese market historian, but while they have kept rates low forever, their stock market has gotten crushed right? I don't see how we keep getting the benefit of stocks rising as yields drop. Something is going to have to give right?


Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:40 | 2826278 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Something is going to break, the way the markets are perverted it may have to have to happen in the Forex markets. The FX markets are too big for them to control forever.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:11 | 2826193 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

I have sold some gold and silver bars to buy pre-1964 quarters (lots of them).  I decided to do this not because of this fakes issue, but because everyone will know and trust pre64 silver US coinage.  Plus, it's a good, usable coin, current value around $6.15.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:18 | 2826212 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I think that is a very smart move.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:51 | 2826514 calgal
calgal's picture


Its called chopping up 40 bil in MBS and creating 400 bil in new derivatives

How do you like those assets?

Does this derivative make my asset look fat?

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:59 | 2826158 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I believe that is key, finding one you can trust...or lets go into business making pocket sized ultrasound

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:06 | 2826178 XitSam
XitSam's picture

I buy my FMJ from Federal Ammunition. If they want to substitute tungsten, all the better.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:32 | 2826263 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It's lousy for your lands and grooves though, great for higher velocities though.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:06 | 2826177 SemperFord
SemperFord's picture

At least you can eat the gold-chocolate coins!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:20 | 2826226 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Just avoid the ones with the creamy Chinese-melamine filled centers...not so good...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:32 | 2826266 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

You can check for gold chocolates with an ultrasound thickness tester.  If you don't have the funds for that, the trail of ants to your stash is a bad sign.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:43 | 2826642 Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture's some silver lining, if 1/2 our "gold" is fake, then the other 1/2 should be worth twice as much.  :)   Just hope you're only gold isn't a single 10 oz bar.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 08:52 | 2827422 Itgoestoeleven
Itgoestoeleven's picture

You might be buying from a reputible dealer. They also can be duped. I buy from MTB and they were duped. See:

A cheap usb oscilloscope (about $300) can be used to acustically test your coins against a known profile. If you like , you can send your coins ot me and I will test them for a fee. ;)  

All kidding aside, test your stash. I know it is time and money but It is better to cry now than cry when you most need the stored value.


Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:31 | 2826257 Hedgetard55
Hedgetard55's picture

You crack me up. thanks for the belly laugh.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:37 | 2826283 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I think I'm going strictly to junk silver now.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:43 | 2826285 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Re: "What fresh new hell is this?"

Don't be so worried.  Even the sound that the coin makes when you drop it edgewise onto a steel surface will be quite different if it is tungsten-coated gold.  Besides, a cheap ultrasonic probe can detect fakes easily as it will report the thickness of a gold-plated tungsten coin or bar at 60% or lower of the value of it had it been gold. (it will report 60% or lower of measured thickness).

Just drop your coins edgewise onto a hard surface.  If they all make the same sound, they are all similar and probably gold.  Make sure you do not damage the coins since gold is quite soft.

Here is a cheap ultrasonic gage you can buy if you are really concerned:

I am sure others can suggest better gages.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:49 | 2826323 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"What fresh new hell is this?"

It was a dark

I'm a firm believer in the sound test...I may have to get a fake one just to compare "sonically" (it would sound different.) Thanks for the link, though I'm not sure I want to trust a Chinese ultrasound device now ;-)

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:27 | 2826432 petolo
petolo's picture

Epay has listings for these ultasonic thickness and velocity testers. The model number GM 100 tests both thickness and density. I am in Canada so i will let you search for it on your country,s site. It goes for around $110. Guess wjere it is made? There are others listed but run much higher. We,re all in this together,eh?

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 23:26 | 2826866 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture


your link:  product sold by "China Supply" no less! lol.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:45 | 2826084 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

What do we do ? Start drilling our gold ?

I was sold gold brand new from Scotia so if its not new, they are in breech of contract and if its tungsten, they are in breech of contract.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:51 | 2826115 thomasincincy
thomasincincy's picture

"What do we do ? Start drilling our gold ?"

Why not? Just keep your shavings and then sell them. It's all by the weight anyway. My uncle does jewlry work and he sells his "dust" every so often

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:51 | 2826120 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

You start by chillaxing.

Besides, when the Government comes around in a few years to "reclaim" your gold as backing for their news current sea gambit, you can take grim satisfaction knowing that it was probably just Tungsten all along.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:10 | 2826186 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Im a Canadian and my gold is in Europe in a place where there is no capital gains tax on gold sales.


And you are an idiot. See below...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:11 | 2826192 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Heh. Buy some fake gold bars as decoys. Express surprise/anger when the confiscators tell you it is tungsten.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:45 | 2826085 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

This stuff is so fake.

First they cow you into buying gold, then they come along and mind-fuck you with this nonsense tungsten crap.

You are not going to win, guys. They are going to take you apart one neuron at a time. Because they can.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:55 | 2826135 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Yeah, I really got "cowed" in to buy the most marketable good in the world you idiot.

Gold is the most marketable good in the world. Show me anything that you can bring to any country on this planet and recieve the local currency for it.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:35 | 2826274 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

well you did get cowed into storing your metal in London when you live in canada. They dont have to tax you, just dont ever try to get your physical delivery and your heart wont be broken.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:38 | 2826287 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

germany has no capital gains tax on physical gold. Not the UK

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:14 | 2826569 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture


Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:06 | 2826179 nmewn
nmewn's picture

They're definitely into mind fucking everyone...but we will win.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 21:43 | 2826643 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Mental rape is a satanic practice.  It reduces the victim to the state of a child that has been repeatedly raped by his parent, while the parent never gets caught.

Pulling off something like killing a president, or blowing up skyscrapers, getting away with it scott free, and then after a few years allowing damning evidence to surface via conspiracy movies, etc.   This is a vulgar display of absolute power, this is mental rape.  Good luck kids. 

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:06 | 2826180 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

"First they cow you into buying gold, then they come along and mind-fuck you with this nonsense tungsten crap."

every day, I drive past the 'we buy gold' store. 

a guy patrols the sidewalk near the street, spinning a big yellow cardboard sign.

a pretty, pretty yellow sign.

spinning. spinning.

it is so very pretty.


must. sell. gold.

pretty, pretty gold.

cash. for. gold. 

must. have. cash.

not gold.

gold bad.

cash good.

pretty, pretty spinning pretty spinning cash good

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:13 | 2826197 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Buy brand new from bullion banks.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:26 | 2826244 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Would it surprise anyone if they were the ones pulling this stunt?

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:36 | 2826277 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

it couldnt be hidden through the corporate chain.

What are they doing with mine supply ?Bullion banks specialize in screwing idiots with paper

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 04:39 | 2827131 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

Corporate chains are a uniquely good place to hide stuff like that.  Ask MF Global, Madoff, Enron, Peregrine.  Maybe I haven't made my point...

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:47 | 2826316 Heyoka Bianco
Heyoka Bianco's picture

Watch the road! If you're a driving sheep, this goes double!

A sheep would survive better eating greenbacks rather than gold. A goat, on the other hand . . .


Mon, 09/24/2012 - 20:30 | 2826450 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

amen, heyoka

you can't eat asphalt

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:46 | 2826087 Whalley World
Whalley World's picture

Got Silver?

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:50 | 2826108 HungryPorkChop
HungryPorkChop's picture

You can do the same with silver just a different metallurgy composition.  Just keep away from those pricey 50 oz bars, if ya know what I mean.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:56 | 2826141 barroter
barroter's picture

Fake Silver!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:47 | 2826092 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  I would love to see these guys "Client List"!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:47 | 2826095 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

Fort Knox should be an exclusive Tungsten dealer and use the revenue to pay down the debt.......they have plenty of the stuff!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:51 | 2826110 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

Fort Knockoff.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:47 | 2826097 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Got my dremmel out right now.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:49 | 2826101 HungryPorkChop
HungryPorkChop's picture

Step right up.  They're available on your favorite auction sites and bidding starts at only $1. 

They are guaranteed to amaze your friends and a great investment which is covered in 50 mils of beautiful 100% 24kt gold.  But wait, if you call right now, we're giving out free 10 oz bars to the first 20 callers.  This is a time limited offer so Call Now!

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 18:50 | 2826104 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

Not to worry. the products are "qualified."

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!