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Guest Post: China, Japan And The Senkaku Islands: The Roots Of Conflict Go Back To 1274

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Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith from Of Two Minds

China, Japan And The Senkaku Islands: The Roots Of Conflict Go Back To 1274

Sensitivity to domination, aggression and loss of face run deep in East Asia.

Longtime correspondent Cheryl A. asked me to comment on the dispute between China and Japan over the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. I am happy to oblige, as this raises a great number of deeply intertwined issues that are playing out in Asia.

Let's start by noting the "stranger than fiction" absurdity of privately owned islands in ambiguous-nationality waters off China--the scenario of Bruce Lee's classic martial arts film Enter the Dragon. The plot revolves around an ex-Shaolin monk engaged in the drug and prostitution trade who has acquired a private island with murky nationality where he stages martial arts competitions of "epic proportions."

Despite the resemblance to fiction, the dispute is soberingly real, and rooted in chains of events stretching back to 1274 and 1592. Although ostensibly about rights to possible undersea oil/gas reserves, the conflict is about more than territorial or mineral rights.

Japanese fear of Chinese domination can be traced back to the 1200s, when two massive fleets under Mongol leader Kublai Khan attacked Japan in 1274 and again in 1281. The four thousand-ship fleet carrying nearly 140,000 men is said to have been the largest naval invasion in history, eclipsed only in modern times by the D-Day invasion of France (Normandy landings) in 1944. The Mongol fleet was twice dispersed by timely typhoons known in Japan as the "divine wind" (kamikaze).

If you visit Korea, you will notice a curious repetition in the placard descriptions of the historic temples and palaces. Each description includes the phrase, "burned by the Japanese in 1592."

Hideyoshi, the feudal daimyo of Japan, seeking some project to occupy 200,000 battle-hardened samurai and soldiers who had been engaged in decades of feudal-fiefdom warfare in Japan, decided to invade Korea, an independent kingdom that paid tribute to Ming Dynasty China and was within China's sphere of influence.

The Japanese were not kindly conquerors. Not only did they put many of the national treasures to the torch, they destroyed crops, leading to widespread starvation and civilian death, and enslaved thousands of craftsmen who were shipped to Japan.

The Korean Navy managed to limit the invader's sea-supply chain, and eventually the Chinese Ming Dynasty entered the conflict to aid its Korean protectorate. The losses suffered by Korea were catastrophic, and the drain on the Chinese Imperial budget may have contributed to the decline of the Ming Dynasty, which fell in 1644.

There were actually two invasions separated by a brief Chinese-brokered peace. The war finally ended in 1598.

Japanese designs on Korea did not disappear, as Japan annexed Korea as a colony in 1910, a status that lasted until the end of World War II.

Though there is a lively trade between Japan and Korea, it is safe to say that the Koreans have not forgotten the brutal oppression they suffered under Japanese rule from 1910 to 1945, nor have they forgotten the needless destruction and civilian deaths resulting from the Japanese invasion of 1592. Even today, Koreans are second-class citizens in Japan, though you will be hard-pressed to get any official recognition of this reality.

China suffered greatly at the hands of the Japanese during World War II, when Japan invaded and occupied major swaths of coastal and northern China. The senseless, needless massacre of hundreds of thousands of unarmed civilians has been well-documented, though Japanese "Holocaust deniers" claim otherwise. The 1998 account of one city's experience, The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II, awakened many to the brutality of the Japanse occupation.

Tens of thousands of Chinese civilians were killed by Japanese Imperial Army troops in China as punishment for Chinese aid to the 1942 Doolittle raid flyers who crash-landed in China after bombing Tokyo. The Japanese killed an estimated 250,000 civilians while searching for Doolittle's men.

Though it is not acknowledged, the primary reason American troops remain stationed in Japan is not to protect Japan but to protect its Asian neighbors from Japanese aggression. This is also the reason American troops remain in Germany, 67 years after the end of World War II and two decades after the Soviet Empire collapsed. While the U.S. maintained an extensive military presence in Japan and West Germany as part of its defensive protection of the West from Soviet encroachment, the military presence also reassured nervous neighbors that the U.S. would limit the German and Japanese armed forces and cap those nations' aggressive tendencies.

This is why all the calls in Asia for the U.S. to reduce its presence ring hollow. Not only have people not forgotten Japanese aggression, they also haven't forgotten a thousand years of Chinese domination. The U.S. presence in East Asia reassures everyone in the region that neither Japan nor China will have a free hand to colonize, annex or otherwise dominate the region.

The Chinese people have a chip on their shoulder which they do not even see. The consensus view in China--once again, not spoken publicly, but real nonetheless--is that China's rightful place in the world is at the center (hence the term "middle kingdom," which actually means "center of the world"). Thus the entire world "should" recognize China's natural place at the head of the table, so to speak, and any other nation's resistance to this "natural order" (for example, America's) is seen as "they're trying to hold us back" rather than as an expression of national self-interest.

In other words, to the Chinese, it's always about China: whatever any other nation does, not just in Asia but anywhere on the planet, it's always "they're trying to hold back" China.

This smoldering chip on the shoulder has two sources: the humiliation of the 19th century at the hands of European and American colonial powers (imagine San Francisco being carved up and occupied by foreign nations, and you get a taste of Chinese resentment) and the aforementioned sense of dominance being the birthright of China.

Then there's the Asian focus on "face" that I discuss in China: An Interim Report: Its Economy, Ecology and Future (2005). Apparently The Japanese felt they lost face in last year's kerfuffle between a Chinese fishing boat and a Japanese patrol craft, and so "backing down" on the Senkaku Islands is not a domestic-politics option.

China's leadership, scheduled to change hands later in the year, is keen to avoid any public loss of face as well, as the last thing the leadership wants is any public perception of weakness against "Japanese aggression." One need only read The Rape of Nanking to udnerstand why it doesn't take much to incite mobs to trash every outpost of Japanese commerce within sight.

The Japanese have a peculiarly virulent strain of right-wing militarism that continues to influence domestic politics. In this worldview, reverence for the Imperial household is mixed with an aggrieved sense that Japan's expansion in World War II was justified (though few would say this publicly). As a result, any official Japanese attempt to apologize for the horrendous destruction, murder, enslavement and torture inflicted by Japanese forces in World War II sparks outrage in one sector of the domestic political order.

Deep within this mindset is the view that the only thing wrong with World War II was that Japan lost.

Even more galling to those who suffered so mightily, Japan has refused to publicly acknowledge (though they claim they have) and compensate the "comfort women," young women who were forced into prostitution to serve Japan's armed forces in the Asian/Pacific theater of World War II.

This official dance between apology and refusal satisfies no one, and the general sense outside Japan is that the Japanese acceptance of guilt is grudging public relations rather than sincere.

Combine an obsession with "face" and a plethora of deep-seated resentments, and you get the tinder for territorial disputes. What appears to be lost on the Chinese is the consequence of their saber-rattling and bluster: they appear to have obliterated 20 years of careful diplomacy aimed at convincing their neighbors of China's peaceful intentions.

What seems to be lost on the Japanese is the painful proximity of their World War II brutality in the awareness of their Asian neighbors.

As for solutions: one would hope there is a face-saving way to "engage in peaceful negotiations." If not, then this issue will fester. Though no one wants to state it publicly, there is a role for the U.N. as "honest broker" here, if only the participants can take their hands off their saber handles and practice a bit of honest self-criticism.

Could Asia really go to war over these? The bickering over islands is a serious threat to the region’s peace and prosperity. (The Economist)

 


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Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:24 | Link to Comment LongSoupLine
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1274?

 

Seems we can trace a lot of issues back to the early 70's huh?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:32 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Iran's gunpowder program was totally about to reach critical mass around then. The European Powers That Were should have put a stop to it but there were a lot of doves in their court.  The Crusaders couldn't march past the Red Sea in full plate armor. 

None of this ever happened before, really.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:33 | Link to Comment spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

The Irish were already warmed up by then....

The first Anglo-Norman intervention in Ireland came in 1167. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/troubles/overview_ni_article_01.shtml

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:47 | Link to Comment Precious
Precious's picture

You don't see nationalist Japanese bulldozing people.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:44 | Link to Comment JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

UPDATE" Japanese and Chinese Coast Gaurd have water fight.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/china-plants-shutter-amidst-protests-slides...

Bitch slapping to start soon.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 21:16 | Link to Comment Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

It looks like they will be shooting at each other real soon.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 21:58 | Link to Comment Precious
Precious's picture

Point their hoses at that island and pretty soon it will just go away.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 19:02 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

True ... they don't do that. 

The Japanese only did things like the Bataan Death March, Unit 731, Fukushima's disatrous response (saving face was more important)

In Asia?   Not a single damned nation over there is innocent or has clean hands.  

 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 22:00 | Link to Comment BigInJapan
BigInJapan's picture

. . .yet

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:34 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Scaramanga & Hai Fat have concealed compounds there... Thus the hoopla... They're hiding the SOLEX capacitor...

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:43 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

Yup, it was a strange time Man!

Sex, Drugs and Mongol Empires.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 16:34 | Link to Comment I am more equal...
I am more equal than others's picture

According to a Sunday NYT article, no one has lived on the islands since WWII.  They were used by the US as late as 1985 as a bombing range.  They are usless rocks in an ocean.  The islands are the focal point of some other arguement.  Maybe its a test run of Bond dumping?  What better way to alter the power structure of this region and the world then to send your adversery to financial collaspe.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:34 | Link to Comment optimator
optimator's picture

They all could use a "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Plan" to solve their differences.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:35 | Link to Comment The Alarmist
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Arabs pissed about the Crusades, Japs and Chinks pissed about 1274 ... what ever happened to modern problems?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:03 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

Well today we have news. 

 

In 1274 your pre warning usually came at the shouts of a million horsemen tearing ass through your city.  If you were lucky enough to survive you were put in labour camped or fucked to death by the Hoard.  I've often wondered how truthful that is though, but from Muslim and Jewish settlements in the middle east that were leveled by the Khan to the Polish and Northern French settlements off the steppes of Russia, there is a consistent message.  

Have that tale told a thousand times across an entire continent for hundreds of years in various forms.  The Polish tale of Lajkonik is a good example.  The theory is the Mongols told a story to survivors to tell other villiages to prep them, because of the human concept of pride before the fall.  A survivor would talk of how they won to the villiagers as the warning, everyone would prepare to fight with some poor information.  Mongol zerg rush.  No more villiage.

New words are invented.  Orge, Troll, Goblin, Orc.  Tolkien didn't invent them, he borrowed them.  The rings saga is as much a retelling of the story of the Great Khan.  Myths of a monster hoard that rides wolves like the wind and eat the young for food or gratification...close enough.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:47 | Link to Comment falak pema
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BS, the mongols were killers but not cannibals. They hated all forms of sedentary life. They disappeared because they couldn't adapt to it, inspite of their empire. Karma.

They disappeared like they came, after 150 years. Back to the yourts! And a near thousand year sleep. 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 19:09 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

No they weren't cannibals, but myth has a life of it's own. Tolkien added the touch of Macbre with the Urik-Kai.  There are lots of myths/stories about the Khan in every country he charged through.  From absorbing as much as I can from written history and my nerd love of Lord of the Rings, a tonne of the history created with the Mongols seemed to be repeated nearly verbatim with the Lord of the Rings trilogy.  He says as much in the Similarion.  

The history though shows deception, co-opts, buy ins, and once the army achieved critical mass, it was months between messages if they were recieved.  It's pretty rough country between Tibet and Damascus or Lyon.  150 years and yup, back to the Yurts to view a dead body on display.  All in the Mongol army had to go back to pay homage to the Khan.

 

So they left, and that was that.  After his death, the Mongol hoard adopted Tao, and made sure there was a strong prescence in what is modern China.  

It doesn't mean they didn't attempt to go back to claim sovereignity though.  The Mongols did of course, what they didn't realise like the US is learning with arming the Muhajadeen in the 80's, is cultural memes.  When the mongol hoard disengaged, they left behind the Russian secret weapon used until until today by all nations.  

 

Medieval Russians adopted and adapted the horse, and then invented the counter to a million screaming mongols.  Light Calvary.  Armour shape changed to deflect arrows and swords, pikes grew longer, swords curved, silk seen up until the WW1 and Draught horses crossed with Mongol stock.  The Russians crushed them like bugs. It caused a big economic collapse in China when it did.  Dynasties just folded one after another, the entire time were shaky and prone to collapse quickly.  Mostly the Chinese royality just poisoned each other, one after another and managed to weaken their position until the British did what they do.  Divide and conquere by proxy of a shipping company in promise to the crown.

 

It's facinating stuff.  Cannot get enough of.

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 06:23 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

Not just the Russians; Tamerlane! In 1395 at Terek River battle, before russian revival. 

The golden Horde disappeared after Turcomen revival; the latter only lasted the span of Tamerlane's life; he defeated the nascent Ottomans at Ankara in 1402 but his progeny lost it all. 

The Tatars, sons of Horde, as they were called met their match in the Cossacks. But they were a shadow of their past. 

Timur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

Don Cossacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 14:02 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

Cool.

 

Thanks Falak Pema.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 17:04 | Link to Comment ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

The Mongols didn't kill everyone. If you were an artisan or had a skilled craft, you got to go back to Mongolia to serve the Khan. Hey, beats getting fucked to death.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:36 | Link to Comment OpenEyes
OpenEyes's picture

Fuck You Whale and Fuck You Dolphin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNvIM2W9Aw

 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 16:20 | Link to Comment Precious
Precious's picture

Yah, and Fuck You English!

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:41 | Link to Comment Unbezahlbar
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Glow in the Dark origami from Fuki ?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:47 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
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"Despite the resemblance to fiction, the dispute is soberingly real, and rooted in chains of events stretching back to 1274 and 1592. Although ostensibly about rights to possible undersea oil/gas reserves, the conflict is about more than territorial or mineral rights."

Silliness.

Nothing matter but oil.  Everything, EVERYTHING, else is handwaving.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:48 | Link to Comment darteaus
darteaus's picture

"right-wing" militarism

Try nationalist

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 18:07 | Link to Comment jballz
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right-wing nationalist militarism.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:51 | Link to Comment Theosebes Goodfellow
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My only question is this: If the islands were for sale, why didn't the PRC or Taiwan just outbid the Japanese? This would save a lot of face for everyone and the islands would become the most expensive real estate in the world. Or better yet, since this is about fish and oil, set up a triumvirate to exploit the natural resources with a fourth party overseeing that it is managed equitably. I nominate the island nation of Vanuatu. They know how to run islands and frankly could use the work.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:35 | Link to Comment optimator
optimator's picture

If only Goldman or the FED bought those islands all would be calm.  The aformentioned will own them anyway in the long run.

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 08:37 | Link to Comment earnulf
earnulf's picture

Your question is a sound and valid one and the solution you proposed is also sound.    Which is why squabbling children will refuse to listen to the advice of others and have thier playground proxie battles because it's fun and the folks starting the shit won't be the ones getting hurt (only their proxies/slaves/soldiers/fishermen).

As Will Smith said "Don't start no shit, won't be no shit"

Since three different countries (yes, Taiwan qualifies) claim rights, set up a company to develop the resources with all three countries kicking in the intitial startup costs and all three benefiting from the profits generated in equal thirds.     Sadly, this won't work because China is so big, it should get more and japan is second biggest so it should get more than taiwan and taiwan paid an equal amount, so it should get a third, etc, etc, etc.

Kinda like the US deficit.   We need spending reductions and tax increases to start to turn around this mess, but the driver has his foot on the gas and the passengers keep throwing darts at the tires.

 

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 10:42 | Link to Comment RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

I heard they held a Chinese auction, but damned if the Chinese didn't fuck up and bid on more treasuries. 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:05 | Link to Comment Precious
Precious's picture

Charles.  I didn't think I would ever read a more self-righteous, indignant commenter than myself.

But really, you are probably the world's champion, bloviating, pompous, self-important, anal-retentive bag of shit of all time.  Or maybe it's just the fucked-up effeminate way the British have developed their prose ever since they enshrined homosexuality.

"Longtime correspondent Cheryl A. asked me to comment on the dispute between China and Japan over the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. I am happy to oblige, as this raises a great number of deeply intertwined issues that are playing out in Asia."

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 14:57 | Link to Comment Wolferl
Wolferl's picture

Why the fuck is this post taged with "Germany"? We have no stake in this game whatsoever, we are living on the other side of this globe. If those stupid Asian fuckers want to start a world war, fine, finally a major war without us, we´ll have fun whatching the show on TV. Pass the  popcorn.    

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:04 | Link to Comment buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! And it ain't over now. [/bluto]

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 22:07 | Link to Comment Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

The Germans didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.

 

They bombed Hiroshima and Nagisaki.

 

Get your facts straight.

 

 

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 10:44 | Link to Comment RafterManFMJ
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Crisis, your post made me LOL; Kudos.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:36 | Link to Comment LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture

 

 

Just think how we feel in the U.S. the Japs wanted us off their Island they protest us even to this day call us an irritant but yet we get stuck defending them thanks to our leaders what kind of insanity is that? We should bring home our troops defend our own damn country and when the rest of the world is in trouble tell them to go screw themselves like they do us when it's convenient.

U.S. comes to agreement with Japan to move 9,000 Marines off Okinawa

 

OKINAWA: THE U.S. BASES CAUGHT BETWEEN FEUDING CHINA AND JAPAN

 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 20:30 | Link to Comment M2Market
M2Market's picture

True words of wisdom and yet there are hoards of Jap lovers that just can't wait to throw their money and lives away for Nihonjin, and they even have the galls to ask the rest of us to foot the bill too.  The fact of the matter is these god forsaken islands aren't worth a single American life over and Japan is not exactly a friend of ours and China is not exactly an enemy of ours.  This world is just different shades of gray instead of what the Neocon idiots wants us to think.  Fukushima is radiating us with lots of love and it should be our damn business to tell Japan to come clean with the truth on the extent of the pollution, since we're the ones eating those Alaskan king crabs and salmon jerky, and yet all these idiots care about is containing China?  These Nihonjin have nuked us back with Fukushima and we're still defending their sorry asses over some rocks that can't pay down our national debt?  We should tell the whole world to just fuck off and leave us alone

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:04 | Link to Comment darteaus
darteaus's picture

The only thing I'd add to the piece:

Many nations start complaining about external enemies when their domestic politicians are experiencing domestic economic problems that they can't solve.  This is well known.

Turning that on its head, when you see two nations mutually escalating a territorial issue, then you see two nations with serious domestic economic issues - regardless of what statistics they publish.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:11 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Since Obummer and his trailer park trash sidekick both lack any sort of diplomatic skill appropriate for their current positions, perhaps they should call Rex and see if he can come up with a JDA that saves face and profits the concerned parties-

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:12 | Link to Comment InconvenientCou...
InconvenientCounterParty's picture

Chinese expansionism is just over the horizon isn't it?

Their territory is increasingly pollluted, affecting domestic food and water sources, they have a relatively high male/female ratio, they are racially and culturally homogenus, they are cash rich where cash matters.

As ususal, people will look back and say "how did we miss that?"

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 16:47 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Ask the Tibetians if Chinese expansionism is just over the horizon. Or ask India or Vietnam how easy China (PRC) has been to get along with.

As for China being homogeneous - not even close to true. Heck, they can't even decide which version of Chinese to speak. Sure, Mandarin is the official language, but Cantonese is far from abandoned. I once belonged to a Chinese Culture Association here in Florida, via my wife. I found it curious that the group met every Saturday and Sunday. One day for the Cantonese speakers, the other for the Mandarin speakers. When they occassionally got together the predominant language was - surprise! - English. Naturally I preferred those get-togethers, since most of the Chinese words I learned from my wife were not fit for polite company.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 19:20 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

50,000,000 men that will never find wives, a fucking pansy emperor in your biggest threat / rival state,  domestic troubles at home, banking systems having a hard landing ....  What's a modern day Mandarin Emperor to do?  

  • Start a war,
  • kill off extra men,
  • grab a bunch of territory & resources 
  • restore the "glory" of China.  
  • Oh and stiff the Americans on all of their invested infrastructure and monkeyfuck their financial system at the same time.  
  • And the ultimate prize:   Global Reserve Currency Status

 That's the end game.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:30 | Link to Comment g3h
g3h's picture

Pretty pointless.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:31 | Link to Comment Joe A
Joe A's picture

"While the U.S. maintained an extensive military presence in Japan and West Germany as part of its defensive protection of the West from Soviet encroachment, the military presence also reassured nervous neighbors that the U.S. would limit the German and Japanese armed forces and cap those nations' aggressive tendencies."

AKA assuring America's dominance over the world. Which country benefitted the most from WWII? It was the US. Did this fact assured that there has not been another world war? Perhaps. But is a uni-polar world with one world power really a safer place?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:33 | Link to Comment Bear
Bear's picture

Wow 1274 ... two years after the last (9th) Crusade ... I guess wars have been pretty continuous since man started walking on the earth, but 'this time its different' as we can expect Project 21 to unit us globally

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:40 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

the year when Marco Polo expedition arrived in Baidu. The first Chinese expansion into Japan, then a country of "barbarians". 

The Mongols were the scourge of humanity. 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:37 | Link to Comment bankruptcylawyer
bankruptcylawyer's picture

the most valuable lesson to learn from the experience of the communist party of china AND the united states military, is that the only way to truly win an extended war of epic proportions is to enter the war as late as possible , after the initial agitators have not only exausted many of their resources, but after their strategic positioning has been made aparrent and cannot easily be changed. 

 

he who begins with a good defense, can transition towards the winning offense. 

defense includes being unnoticed or inactive for as long as possible while the agitators are exausting themselves.

the next 'war' with iran may well be a disaster for the u.s. if , after a year or two of agitation, china and russia decide to become even more active than they alreay are.

 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:41 | Link to Comment DutchR
DutchR's picture

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 18:28 | Link to Comment Zeilschip
Zeilschip's picture

No offense, but you're just a grunt.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 22:12 | Link to Comment Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

No offense, but you're just a foaming-at-the-mouth, asshole-licking, cock-sucking, mother-fucking, piece-of-shit idiot.

But . . . No offense, you understand.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:46 | Link to Comment Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

Just let Larry Ellison buy them already...

 

 

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:52 | Link to Comment percyklein
percyklein's picture

Good! Let them settle it with 13th century weapons then.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:52 | Link to Comment Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

"Imagine San Francisco being carved up and occupied by foreign nations, and you get a taste of Chinese resentment."

Imagine? Hasn't this already happened?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 15:54 | Link to Comment boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

Let's start by noting the "stranger than fiction" absurdity of privately owned islands in ambiguous-nationality waters off China

Let's not and say we did, those islands/uninhabited rocks are closer to Japan and part of the Okinawa Prefecture, than they are to china by hundreds of miles. Also, they are no longer in private hands. This line of reasoning is akin to debating a claim by Canada to Martha's Vineyard. Or, Mexico claiming Catalina.

This whole fucking mess has nothing in reality to do with those rocks and everything to do with China moving (long awaited) to disrupt the Siamese twin relationship between the US and Japan.

Japan was attacked once by China long ago but the Chinese (actually Mongolian ships of Kublai Khan) fleet did not get to Japan, a typhoon wrecked the Chinese ships and as we all know that is where the Japanese word KAMIKAZI, divine wind, originated. Point is that Japan has only one buffer zone to slow mortal enemies, the sea. As long as it's neighbors can't project power by sea they are safe, the Chinese have recently changed that simple math by building first line ships. Of course the Japanese are uncomfortable no doubt too by historic guilt over what they did in China 70 to 80 years ago.

The actual ambiguity of the East China Sea does not lay with those islands per se but by the fact that both sides claim a 200 mile territorial limit that overlaps, and it is complicated by the fact that China still claims Taiwan as Chinese territory which vastly extends their spurious claims to what otherwise would be open ocean closer to Japan.

This is nothing new for China though, they also have specious claims to the Spratly Islands of Vietnam, and others still in the Philippines. Some islands in the South China Sea are claimed by 6 nations. China is rapidly becoming a ranchevist regional player and while the USA may want to appease them Japan simply can't afford to.

For those that think China has a good claim and Japan none, what would you say if the Chinese up and claimed Hawaii? Started sending it's navy and merchant fleet into US waters and harassed shipping and fishing vessels? I thought so.

This is going to end up breaking the relationship between Japan and the USA and that will, can only have, the net effect of Japanese unilateral rearmament. China will one day acquire Taiwan and then go after Japan, while it's puppet North Korea goes after the south. Or, do you think they are building aircraft carriers for the fun of it? Carriers are mainly offensive weapons systems, to build them and then station them in your own waters is just pointless, the power they project could just as well be stationed on land if the carriers are not even going over the horizon. And they sure as shit did not start spending untold billions on a navy to take over a few rocks in the East China Sea. I would like to add that a nation that can build Three Gorges can build a modern navy in less than a decade and they are well on their way. Containment will not be possible then.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 16:21 | Link to Comment ThisIsBob
ThisIsBob's picture

Everybody will have long range drones soon enough.  Navies will become artifacts of history.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 18:26 | Link to Comment Zeilschip
Zeilschip's picture

Clearly an objective summary of current affairs. Not!

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 16:32 | Link to Comment straightershooter
straightershooter's picture

HellO!!

 

The US of A is the problem here. It stole the Daiyou Island and granted it to the Japan after world war II during the civil war of China while claiming neutral stuatus in dispute but claiming the Island falls into the treaty of mutual defense with Japan. SEE, any irony here:

 

Neutral, no position in any side.

Then,  no force allowed to settle disputes, or else.

But worry not, in another 8 years, medicare related outlays would be 50% (right now, circa 25%)of total budget . (double every 8 years given 9% growth rate for the past 30 years ). Another 8 years, medicare related outlays would be 100% of all federal budget, before anything else.   so, unless something happened to magically eliminate circa 50 million baby boomers, by 2020, US of A would be a paper tiger, literally speaking cause there would be nothing left for defense, etc., etc.,

Now, you know why people claimed that anyone under 55 is screwed.

Japan knew it and it wants to settle it way before the expire day of US of A. sadly, China knew it, too, and wants to delay the final settlement date until the expire date of US of A. and, then, settle the final score with japan.

 

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 09:38 | Link to Comment Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

you will see them start world war III before this can happen. i am not saying you're wrong.

 

but when a world war starts, economy shift on "war economy", where the only thing you get is food, if you can get it.......

 

dont assume that USA is already gone. This century is an american century. Probably the last

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 16:54 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Interesting history lessons, although I've found that individual Chinese, Japanese and Koreans in the US can be the best of friends while still harboring a generic distaste for the others in the aggregate. I have to disagree, however, with the thought that 'there is a role for the U.N. as "honest broker" here'. The only UN action I would ever consider worthwhile is for it to dissolve itself. The U.N. never has been an honest broker and never can serve the interests of human liberty. It should just die.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 17:44 | Link to Comment AvoidingTaxation
AvoidingTaxation's picture

1291, Birth of Switzerland and Scotland (almost).

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 18:17 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

Come on. Mao had managed to kill much much more Chinks than Japs had ever done in the last 200 years.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 18:23 | Link to Comment Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

And, the communist Chinese government continues to kill Chinamen:

http://www.infowars.com/man-crushed-by-road-flattening-truck-on-orders-of-chinese-officials/

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 18:21 | Link to Comment Zeilschip
Zeilschip's picture

Is Chink an accepted word now here on Zerohedge?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 18:38 | Link to Comment Breaker
Breaker's picture

"there is a role for the U.N. as "honest broker" here,"

I cannot see how the UN could be honest or a broker here, or anywhere, for that matter. This is a matter of perceived national self-interest by two nations with formidable militaries, restive populations that need to be satisfied with nationalism, and oil. Handwaving and pompous resolutions by the UN are irrelevant. Noone except US and European progressives and third-world-grifters take the UN seriously anymore. Certainly the Chinese do not.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 20:27 | Link to Comment Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

This is just the teams picking their players.  US has picked Japan, China picked itself. Iran, Syria, Russia, China, Pakistan, and who knows who else, are on one side so far. Probably add Brazil, Venezuela, etc, maybe India, to that list.  US has England, Japan, France, and I don't know what the rest will do. Oh yes, Sweden, Switzerland too.  This is just so that when the fighting gets started, no one left standing can point to where the shit all started. It started with orders from the Oligarchs, but the average person doesn't believe in such fairy tales, no, they have no spare faith after God, Jesus / Mohammed / Many, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, and the Boogey Man.  All those are much more plausible, but that prick behind you shoving the broom stick up your ass, he's just in your demented imagination.

Don't talk to me, you're scaring me with all these constipated conspiracy theories.  One bit of advice... stay away the glue, man.

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 08:14 | Link to Comment Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

Switzeland is neutral since the Napoleon campaign.... i m just saying...................

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 08:38 | Link to Comment Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

I know, but when they decided to peg their Franc to the Euro i believe it is, they chose a side. That was a big decision i'm sure wasn't taken lightly. Clearly the oligarchs control or rule or infiltrated Switzerland.

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 08:50 | Link to Comment Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

yes, you're right.

 

we pegged swiss franc on euro and we started buying bond from Germany, Austria, Finland and Holland.

 

and there still people calling us "bad guys" cause we didnt help europe. LOL

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 21:11 | Link to Comment boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

God, this is like trying to argue morality with Archie Bunker.  Fuck it.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 22:46 | Link to Comment BigInJapan
BigInJapan's picture

Simplistic article, at best. Ignorant at worst.

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 08:10 | Link to Comment Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

"Though it is not acknowledged, the primary reason American troops remain stationed in Japan is not to protect Japan but to protect its Asian neighbors from Japanese aggression"

 

This is your opinion.

 

Japanese had 2 atomic bombs on their city. That was enough to fix their imperialistic dreams

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 08:52 | Link to Comment Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

"This is also the reason American troops remain in Germany"

 

ahahahah yes yes!

 

the 300 russian division in Eastern Europe were not a problem.......................................................................................

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 03:08 | Link to Comment Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

Solution: Japan sells the islands to Foxconn.  

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