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Guest Post: What Happened To Virtue?

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Submitted by James E. Miller of the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada,

In the midst of the Great Depression, Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon famously advised President Hoover to “liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate farmers, liquidate real estate” instead of propping each industry up with tax dollars.  This liquidation doctrine would “purge the rottenness out of the system” and make certain that “people will work harder” and “live a more moral life.”  Contrary to popular belief, Hoover did not take Mellon’s advice and went forth with his own version of the New Deal that gave relief to farmers and supported wage rates in certain industries.  These efforts, which were exacerbated under the presidency of Franklin Roosevelt, effectively prevented the market from clearing.  The boom of the late 1920s that was driven by the Federal Reserve’s monetary inflation was not allowed to bust.  Instead of liquidating the debt and allowing the economy to reach a sound footing, both the Hoover and Roosevelt administrations attempted to manage it back to health.  The result was the longest period of unemployment ever recorded in American history.

Today, Mellon’s advice is still spurned by most of the economic profession.  The media establishment, not to be outdone, is also on the side of intervention.  Government is looked to as a savior while markets are seen as inadequate in providing for a satisfactory standard of living.  With their incessant need to fix what isn’t broke, the political class is praised for their courage to take the reins of society and direct it toward a meaningful and just way of life.  Liberty is seen as barbaric in comparison to state-sanctioned redistribution.  Fighters of war are looked to as glorious warriors who make a great sacrifice to their countrymen.  Public office itself is seen as an occupation of the righteous who give up the opportunity for profit.  Most notably, spending is regarded as the necessary elixir of economic growth.

The old fashioned ideas of hard work and self-reliance are made out to be anachronistic.  It is no longer a virtue to succeed.  What is now honorable is men with guns and badges taking from some and giving to others.

In this context, it must be asked where did the ideas of virtue originally come from and what role do they play in humanity.

Virtue is typically defined as an attribute that is regarded as good in a moral sense.  Donating one’s income to the less fortunate is normally seen as a virtue.  A propensity to steal is usually looked upon as a ruinous vice rather than a worthy trait.

In the modern era, it would seem as if classic virtues (basic ideas of right and wrong) have lost their appeal.  In their place has been a concentrated effort to promote those actions once thought of as deserving of moral condemnation.  To this writer, such a course of action is socially destructive will end up severing the cooperative ties that mankind has established within itself.  Market economies are based on the ideals of self-ownership and mutual effort.  It is only through reciprocity that material progress can be made to lighten the burden on human existence.   State interference creates distortions in favor of one party over another.

St. Thomas Aquinas famously defined the cardinal virtues of human life as being prudence, temperance, justice, and fortitude.  These virtues are revealed in nature and make up the foundations of natural law.  To Aquinas, humanity naturally strives to achieve ends through the use of reason.  Because of innate imperfection, these qualities aren’t always adhered to but are necessary for facilitating a rising standard of living.  Without temperance, the present is indulged to rather than the future.  In the absence of justice the incentive to carry forward with life is handicapped through uncertainty over whether collaboration with others will be successful.  And without fortitude to face certain obstacles, lofty goals will not be pursued.  The guiding force for all actions is prudence which enables men the capacity to decide whether an action will result in ends being achieved.  These virtues, it is held, stem from nature and are discoverable through reason alone; a spiritual authority is not needed for their confirmation.

Logically and practically, it is obvious that persistent rashness and thoughtlessness are not sustainable lifestyles in a world defined by scarcity.  To achieve that which is desired, man must act in way to best ensure his demand can be met.  Behaving discreetly and with respect toward others is often the best avenue for achieving happiness in the long run.  Government, with its slew of welfare benefits, attempts to supersede this truth by creating dependency.  In return for votes, politicians and bureaucrats instill a sense of infantilism while posing as givers of charity.  Combined with economic regulation which aids politically-favored firms and stifles the free action of entrepreneurs, the state creates conflict amongst society since it operates solely on funds plundered from the greater public.  As a monopoly of force, the state becomes a target for all those attempting to circumvent the laws of nature.

With central banking the concept of saving more than you consume is dismissed as a relic of the past and the era where planners didn’t have the economy in their firm grasp.  Through Keynesian economic policies, short time preferences are rewarded while looking toward the future is punished.  Retirees living on fixed income struggle to make ends meet in favor of debt accrual.  The state invariably uses easy access to the printing press to fund its activities.  Resources that could be used for productive efforts are siphoned off in favor of political interests.  More egregious is that fact that central banking itself is a client of the banking system and guarantees an unlimited supply of dollars should bad investment decisions come to fruition.  The rest of the public must pay with using depreciated currency.  Because of the allowance of fractional reserve banking, credit is created out of thin air.  In other words, titles of property are effectively created to a good which doesn’t necessary exist.  Modern banking isn’t just a cartel that operates at the expense of everyone else; it enjoys a government privilege that would otherwise not exist under a free market.  Yet many commentators have nothing but praise for central banking and its ability to manage the business cycle.

In the same vein, the conduct of war is applauded even as it extinguishes precious life from the planet.  President Obama personally makes the call for the extrajudicial killing of people without any evidence of their wrongdoing.  Women, children, and other innocents often meet the same fate just by being in the vicinity of a drone strike.  In a new study from the Stanford Law School and New York University’s School of Law, it was revealed that the number of “high-level targets killed as a percentage of total causalities” from the drone program is only 2%.  The study also accuses the administration of downplaying the number of civilians killed by strikes.

It’s unfathomable how someone could even begin to ponder over supporting a man who places the order for indiscriminate bombings that often result in the death of innocent bystanders.  But Obama still remains fairly popular to the American electorate.  He is seen as tough on terror while ordering for the assassination of targets in complete secrecy and from the comfort of another continent.  His policies are painted as being admirable when they are cowardly.  In the name of ensuring peace he creates chaos.  The media stands all too ready to lap it up and parrot the message.  These callous murders should bring despair to anyone who values their own life but seldom does.  Death has unfortunately become all too routine.

In his personal memoirs, the great anti-state thinker Albert Jay Nock once opined

All I ever asked of life was the freedom to think and say exactly what I pleased, when I pleased, and as I pleased.

I agree whole heartedly with Nock’s sentiment.  Not only do I seek the freedom to speak without the overarching menace of a faceless big brother but to do as I please as long as I bring no harm to others.  The “live and let live” existence is the only type that falls closest in line with the natural virtues laid out by Aquinas centuries ago.  Refraining from violence is not just an ethical choice, it allows for the productive capacity of men to blossom.  And without hard work and the putting off of immediate gratification, less becomes available for the future.

In the age of state welfare pandering, corporate subsidization, and Orwellian monitoring, a longing for true liberty remains totally unconventional.  To many, it is downright radical to take charge of one’s life and wish only to be left in peace.  How we have reached this point is demonstrative of how pervasive the state has become.

There isn’t a shred of decency in how governments or central banks operate.  Their functions run antithetical to the basic virtues of mankind.  If we as a species are to use our reason and free will to better our live, the institutionalized violence the state embodies must be rejected.


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Thu, 09/27/2012 - 22:50 | 2837508 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

TPTB want sheeple without historic memory.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:01 | 2837530 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

A perpetual slave subspecies that only knows how to eat, sleep, shit, and work, but is incapable of overcoming the unnatural suppresion it is subject to. They're trying to fucking devolve us!

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:26 | 2837581 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The main problem is that humans are monkeys that think they are human. Not anything to be proud of, especially our Monkey Warfare.

Humans and Monkeys share Machiavellian Intelligence

When it comes to their social behavior, people sometimes act like monkeys, or more specifically, like rhesus macaques, a type of monkey that shares with humans strong tendencies for nepotism and political maneuvering, according to research by Dario Maestripieri, an expert on primate behavior and an Associate Professor in Comparative Human Development and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Chicago.

“After humans, rhesus macaques are one of the most successful primate species on our planet; our Machiavellian intelligence may be one of the reasons for our success” wrote Maestripieri in his new book Macachiavellian Intelligence: How Rhesus Macaques and Humans Have Conquered the World.

Maestripieri has been studying monkeys for more than 20 years and has written extensively on their behavior. He has studied them in Europe, at a research center in Atlanta, and on an island in Puerto Rico, where researchers established a rhesus macaque colony for scientific and breeding purposes.

Rhesus macaques live in complex societies with strong dominance hierarchies and long-lasting social bonds between female relatives. Individuals constantly compete for high social status and the power that comes with it using ruthless aggression, nepotism, and complex political alliances. Sex, too, can be used for political purposes. The tactics used by monkeys to increase or maintain their power are not much different from those Machiavelli suggested political leaders use during the Renaissance.

Alpha males, who rule the 50 or so macaques in the troop, use threats and violence to hold on to the safest sleeping places, the best food, and access to the females in the group with whom they want to have sex. Like human dictators intent on holding power, dominant monkeys use frequent and unpredictable aggression as an effective form of intimidation. Less powerful members of the rhesus macaque group are marginalized and forced to live on the edges of the group’s area, where they are vulnerable to predator attacks. They must wait for the others to eat first and then have the leftovers; they have sex only when the dominant monkeys are not looking.

“In rhesus society, dominants always travel in business class and subordinates in economy, and if the flight is overbooked, it’s the subordinates who get bumped off the plane,” Maestripieri said. “Social status can make the difference between life and death in human societies too,” he pointed out. In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, for instance, the poorer members of the community accounted for most of the hurricane’s death toll.

Male macaques form alliances with more powerful individuals, and take part in scapegoating on the lower end of the hierarchy, a Machiavellian strategy that a mid-ranking monkey can use when under attack from a higher-ranking one. Altruism is rare and, in most cases, only a form of nepotistic behavior. Mothers help their daughters achieve a status similar to their own and to maintain it throughout their lives. Females act in Machiavellian ways also when it comes to reproduction. They make sure they have lots of sex with the alpha male to increase the chances he will protect their newborn infant from other monkeys 6 months later.

“But while they have lots of sex with the alpha male and make him think he’s going to be the father of their baby, the females also have sex with all the other males in the group behind the alpha male’s back,” Maestripieri said. They do so just in case the alpha male is sterile or he dies or loses his power before the baby is born.

Struggles for power within a group sometimes culminate in a revolution, in which all members of the most dominant family are suddenly attacked by entire families of subordinates. These revolutions result in drastic changes in the structure of power within rhesus societies, not unlike those occurring following human revolutions. There is one situation, however, in which all of the well-established social structure evaporates: when a group of rhesus macaques confronts another one and monkey warfare begins. Rhesus macaques dislike strangers and will viciously attack their own image in a mirror, thinking it’s a stranger threatening them. When warfare begins, “Even a low-ranking rhesus loner becomes an instant patriot. Every drop of xenophobia in rhesus blood is transformed into fuel for battle,” Maestripieri wrote.

“What rhesus macaques and humans may have in common is that many of their psychological and behavioral dispositions have been shaped by intense competition between individuals and groups during the evolutionary history of these species” Maestripieri said. Rhesus groups can function like armies, and this may explain why these monkeys have been so successful in the competition with other primates.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:20 | 2837678 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Humans are far worse than Rhesus. At least Rhesus (and the rest of the animal kingdom) value what is REALLY important.

Humans...they'll sell their sons and grandsons (and yours too) for a phone:

Obama Voter Says Vote for Obama because he gives a free Phone
Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:30 | 2837693 Goatboy
Goatboy's picture


What you talk about is culture.. and chaos and incredible antagonisms within it.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:28 | 2837841 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

virtue is for small population societies in harsh climates where people depend on one another.


today's world is overpopulated and competition is fierce despite technological productivity improvements.


also, you can't eat virtue.



Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:37 | 2837856 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Watch a 1930's, 50's, 70, 90's 2010's movies or TV programs.  That’s all you need to know and who controls those mediums.  Funny how when you own the printing press your guys win all the time and you get to destroy nations.  Paybacks a bitch.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 05:01 | 2837923 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

If we were all self-reliant, rational actors, we wouldn't need our protector-class political elite, so what would they do in such a world order? 

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:40 | 2838043 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



What Happened To Virtue?


Turns out it was worth we sold it.


Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:24 | 2837682 Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

Much better than this shitty, whining Miser article. I like that :)

Its worth mentioning that most of our behavior is shaped by environment. Even domestic dogs who are well treated and fed become nice and incredibly playful unlike stray or wild dogs. All humans who suffer become shaped by that suffering, frequently for the worse, for themselves and for their community.

To be clear, I support Miser articles for their anti-warmongering attitude.. but find their economic and social shortsightedness disturbing. 

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:46 | 2838048 BigJim
BigJim's picture

 To be clear, I support Miser articles for their anti-warmongering attitude.. but find their economic and social shortsightedness disturbing. 

LOL, I suppose you think government spending leading to a debt-to-GDP ratio of 120% (and rising) isn't 'shortsighted'.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:28 | 2837690 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

Umm...that's exactly backwards.

"“What rhesus macaques and SUB-humans may have in common is that many of their psychological and behavioral dispositions have been shaped by intense competition between individuals and groups during the evolutionary history of these species”

The "supposed" humans are *acting* like the lesser species.

Don't believe me?
Why do they wear Monkey Suits then?  Memes don't lie.

Kick these base instinct fuckers out of power. Bitchez.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:25 | 2837837 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

“After humans, rhesus macaques are one of the most successful primate species on our planet; our Machiavellian intelligence may be one of the reasons for our success” wrote Maestripieri in his new book Macachiavellian Intelligence: How Rhesus Macaques and Humans Have Conquered the World.


Nice frameworking, american style.

The title reads and the comment reads.

Many plant species 'conquered' the world. And indeed, they also display that macchiavellian intelligence or bits of it as described by this 'american' scientist.

Any that goes when it comes to make money and 'americans' are involved.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:34 | 2837852 akak
akak's picture

Nice blameworking, Chinese Citizenism style.

The comment reads like roadside shit.

Many inferior species 'conquered' the world. And indeed, they also display that basic level of intelligence that impels them not to shit in their own nests.  All but Chinese Citizenism citizens.

Any that goes when it comes to taking a dump and Chinese Citizenism citizens are involved.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 08:49 | 2838194 larz
larz's picture


Fri, 09/28/2012 - 01:00 | 2837724 californiagirl
californiagirl's picture

In the U.S., most people have been effectively indoctrinated by the Cloward-and-Pivenites that have effectively taken over the education system.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:07 | 2837890 economics9698
economics9698's picture

fucking yids.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:52 | 2837609 ACP
ACP's picture

What happened to virtue? Simple. Virtue = one term. That's it. Plain & simple.

No one with the ability to make it to "President" is so concerned about the US that they would dare to do the right thing and sacrifice EVERYTHING in order for 4 short years to do the RIGHT THING.

Virtue is no longer a virtue.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:40 | 2837707 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Virtue (Latin: virtus, Ancient Greek: ????? "arete") is moral excellence. A virtue is a positive trait or quality deemed to be morally good and thus is valued as a foundation of principle and good moral being. Personal virtues are characteristics valued as promoting collective and individual greatness. The opposite of virtue is vice.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:03 | 2837886 zhandax
zhandax's picture

A one-term limit is only the first step.  The most important parts are to divorce money from politics, and drive a stake through the heart of the lobbying industry.  I personally prefer public hanging for the lobbyist problem, but what do you guys think?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:43 | 2837976 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Do we start by hanging the lobbyists or the congresslime they operate?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 10:16 | 2838638 Overfed
Overfed's picture


Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:51 | 2838056 BigJim
BigJim's picture

 The most important parts are to divorce money from politics...

You'll only divorce money from politics if you separate politics and economics. Virtually every government on the planet is nose-deep in interfering with their countries' economies, and their electorates are too blinded by interventionist brainwashing to even consider voting for politicians who suggest allowing markets to get on with doing their own thing.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:33 | 2838036 Acet
Acet's picture

I'm afraid Virtue has been replaced by a far more important characteristic: Having Good Hair

Especially in Politics but not only, in today's society it's all about appearances: the "book cover" is treated as far more important than the contents.

Hence celebrity culture, photogenic politicians and loud, self-promoting people being celebrated above and beyond those that actually produce results (for example: studies have shown that companies managed by quiet CEO types in average have better results than those managed by loud, self-promoting ones). Also note how in some societies, bookworm, thoughtfull types are shunned and brashful sports types are celebrated (which goes a long way to explain why most scientists in the US are actually foreigners).

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:07 | 2837659 dolce vita
dolce vita's picture

"its unfathomable"


indeed it is when common sense is not in your venacular or reason...

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:08 | 2837951 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Mellon was part of the inner circle that constituted the ruling elite of the US.  Along with Rockefeller, Morgan, Warburg they somehow pulled their money out of the stock market before it crashed and then bought high quality equities at a fraction of their real value.  They fleeced the sheeple who did not have inside information like they did and were devastated by the stock market crash.  His advice to Hoover although correct, was self serving in that he would benefit personally from that course of action.  Here we are 100 years later, things haven't changed much, have they?  

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:27 | 2837969 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Mellon...somehow pulled their money out of the stock market before it crashed and then bought high quality equities at a fraction of their real value.

Citation, please?   At his income tax evasion trial (orchestrated behind the scenes by FDR and for which Mellon was eventually acquitted) it came out that his fortune diminished considerably in the 1930s precisely b/c he did NOT sell his holding as others like Joe Kennedy, Warburg, etc. are alleged to have done.

As for being part of a "shadow" govt, that's a good one.  He was Treasury Secretary from the early 1920s until the early 1930s.  He was PART of the government not its shadow.

It is true, however, that he would have benefitted from his call to liquidate labor, fams, etc.  But the point is, so would have everyone else.  Had we pursued a liquidationist policy instead of intervention, the Great Depression would have been more of the length of the post-war 1920/21 depression.  Sharp, painful, but quick.  A lesson we have "somehow" failed to grasp even today.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:02 | 2837998 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

The Creature from Jekyll Island, pp495-497

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 11:40 | 2839066 ReactionToClose...
ReactionToClosedMinds's picture


Read on ..... never rely on one text or author .... everyone has an agenda & narrative ... a story to tell ... including your seeming worship in all things for an otherwise relevant book "Creature from Jekyll Island".

Try reading David Cannadine's excellent biography of Mellon ....which dispels many many false narratives about Mellon put in circulation by FDR et al.  And note, Cannadine is no kool-aid drinker of all things Mellon, as he prefaces the book with the admission that he, the biographer, would have likely been a New Dealer and natural 'despiser' of Mellon according to the New Deal propaganda ..... until he did his thorough research. 

Mellon was not a likeable person (as his unfortunate relationship with his wife &  children attests), but he was precocious.   Now forgotten, Mellon and Lord Montagu almost singelhandedly saved the West fom post -WW1 folly by extending out the German war reparation payments consistent with some form of natural GDP growth one could expect of a devastated post-W1! Germany.  Mellon also almost singehandedly dealt with the fiscal fiasco of post-WW1 inflation in the USA under the arguably disastrous Wilson Administration.  Mellon wanted a simple reformed tax code where the middle class on up (with some progressivity but balanced/connected/tied to econ growth) everyone paid with minimal deductions.  Mellon was ardently against the muni bond exemption which he though idle wealth used to protect their fortunes on a semi-political corrupt bond financing scheme/market that benefited the elite, wealthy families and 'political decision-makers' versus the rest of the populace.

Mellon had many faults (see his personal life --- almost a tragedy), but he was clear headed about finance, risk etc.  He thought prohibition was asking too much of human nature.  Last. while he started out as Treasury Secretary under Hoover, Hoover disliked Mellon and felt overshadowed by him so politically 'iced' Mellon.  Effectively Mellon had no role in the Hoover Administration and stayed on in part because of his developing desire to build a great national art gallery for the USA in Washington DC to rival that of Brittian, France, Russia, etc.




Fri, 09/28/2012 - 12:55 | 2839336 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Thanks I will check it out.  

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 22:37 | 2840898 ReactionToClose...
ReactionToClosedMinds's picture

sorry ... forgot to mention ..... Cannadine revelaed that privately Mellon was no fan of the Federal Reserve.  Mellon thought that it was a 'grand construct' that had the appearance of monetary merit ... but cynically, as an outsider to New York (so many Mellon haters/critics forget this or lose sight of it) Mellon as an outsider from lowly Pittsburgh who made good on (almost) pure merit versus crony capitalism.  In other words, Mellon viewed (in my estimation correctly) that the Federal Reserve was nothing more than an extension of the 'New York' banking cartel into the national economy.  There was more 'populism' to Mellom than the 'populists' ever saw or perceived .. because Mellon was constantly having to overcome the checkmates NY financiers put on him.  You doubt?    Only one of Mellon's companies (maybe two at most I cannot recall) ever went 'public'.   Private equity today could learn alot about how Mellon made the most of being a privately financed firm.


Always be careful of the initial storyline any of us are presented.  Before you 'believe' the content ... ask whosourced it and what their agenda was ... then go back for the 'information' content.  An old successful public relations person taught me that valuable nugget

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 08:45 | 2838183 Slim
Slim's picture

Timeline on this is wrong. They very much embraced Mellon's stance at first. His tenure as Sec of Treasury ended in 1932. New Deal #1 was 1933 along with revaluation on the gold standard. 1929-1933 saw major unemployment and an accelerating deflationary spiral (think real deflation with real big prints getting bigger every year and compounding mercilessly). This was the reason for going fast/hard in the opposite direction and why Bernanke is doing what he's doing today.

Now let me say that ultimately I don't know which is better. I'm not convinced we really got out of the Depression until WWII obliterated half the world. Not sure if will be better this time but honestly 2009-2012 seems tremendously better than 1929-1932. Is it sustainable? Will the global economy "muddle through" in a few more years? How long can central planning (which can be blamed for much of this) hold it together with duct tape? No idea. Merely the original article has the timeline and actions very wrong and is utilizing this distortion to support its theory. Theory may be correct but historical support via real timeline and policy is incorrect.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 12:05 | 2839169 ReactionToClose...
ReactionToClosedMinds's picture

Hoover kept Mellon on for pure political optics .... Hoover felt plitically overshadowed by Mellon.  Mellon was effectively 'iced' under Hoover, had zero policy role nor sought one really (he had been Treasury Secretary for 3 terms already and was clearly worn out)  and only stayed on to initiate the USA National Gallery of Art.  Mellon was secretive to a fault ...even when he was doing 'good deeds' ...his own worst enemy.

Ironically, you seem to be falling into the same trap you are emphatically arguing about ... timeline ...... yes .... but you are espousing the FDR/New Deal propaganda line hook, line and sinker about Mellon , his policies, etc.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 19:52 | 2840501 Slim
Slim's picture

I don't think I mentioned anything about New Deal other than timeline and events up until 1933 when it started along with revaluation.  Pretty unequivocal deflation ahead of that although we can debate cause and what Bernanke specifically is doing.  I don't really have any interest in such debate but despite the merits of the story the timeline is incorrect. 

To add some have said Congress and US government was on verge of litigating Mellon for his role in the Great Depression and that the National Gallery and subsequent exit was a payoff.  Something to ponder.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 20:51 | 2840604 ReactionToClose...
ReactionToClosedMinds's picture

pure insinuation, sir, on your part.   No payoff>>>>> FDR, & more his team/coalition hated everything Mellon represented of the old GOP order post Civl War (and guess what ... i can understand where they came from to some extent .... Mellon or more relevantly the 'Mellon Family interests' were not angels ..).  The FDR coalition hated Mellon like hates General Betrayus

you have no proof other than the obviously ginned up political tax trial of Mellon which was even then considred a travesty of justice.  If you dared to read Cannadine ... you will see the true fault lines of Mellon ... which hilarioulsy you miss in your lefty populist 'insinuations".

Go read then come back to debate ...otherwise go back to MediaMatters where I bet you came from ...

Sat, 09/29/2012 - 01:05 | 2841120 Slim
Slim's picture

Really here, you are reading way too much into this and what my thoughts are.  I largely don't care and you certainly seem to have read quite a bit on this that I haven't.  That doesn't necessarily make you right as who is to say your sources are better/worse although obviously you do feel very strongly about them so I'm willing to at least listen (I have a pretty good personal source so mine is beyond book but hell I'm open minded).  And I'm going to do you the honor of ignoring the classless comments/name calling/accusatory crap which may be a stretch but we'll see how it goes.

Anyway - there seems a very obvious policy change post 1929-1932 versus beyond.  I am interested in how you account for that?  Spiraling debt deflation to effective default on the gold standard and all kinds of fiscal programs down the road to generate more money and specific goal of inflation.  Who was the driver early on if not Mellon?  If the driver and direction was constant from 1929 and beyond what caused a vastly different policy or if not different why does it appear different in both policy and effect on economy (not overwhelmingly postive but not death spiral after '32)?

I'm interested.  The Mellon thing makes a lot of sense and squares very well historically by most accounts and but if it is completely wrong with no credit possible there must be another theory that fits as well or better.

Tue, 10/02/2012 - 09:34 | 2848052 Slim
Slim's picture


So let's just wrap up that we can leave it that either Mellon or some other precisely contemporaneous force/person/spirit etc...had a direct change of policy right at 1932-1933.  Spiraling deflation to major monetary/fiscal expansion to try to hold the line (which is about as good as it got before WWII).  Not a stretch to assume that the about face was as a result of lack of progress and rapidly deteriorating conditions. 

The policy change and impacts on verifiable data cannot really be debated although we can assume whatever source you want.  At the end of the day argument still stands that there is a timeline issue and the author is incorrect here in that only one policy was applied the entire time.  Whether we ultimately would have been better off staying the more conservative route is another discussion.

Might give the Cannadine biography a read at some point despite the overly aggressive and immature posting. In the past it's been associated with someone who has a whole lot of free time and is likely to reside in mom's basement.  Hopefully that's not the case here so I'm open to other ideas but without reading it I'd venture my source is as good and likely significantly better than whatever he may have referenced on the matter of the art (preemptive measure on the family's part).

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 22:51 | 2837512 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Obama can't build that.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 22:55 | 2837518 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 What happened  to " Kinship" and teaching? What happened to understanding, and the betterment of people?

  Why in the HELL do you think I'm partially expatriated?

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 22:58 | 2837526 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture




  Why in the HELL do you think I'm partially expatriated?

You left your heart in San Francisco?

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:14 | 2837551 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  A Tribute to " Tony Bennett" . I'm not from S.F. Ahmeexnal. Much too liberal,for me.  A great place to visit though!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:16 | 2837669 Manthong
Manthong's picture

At least our government schools are producing young men with the compassion to give each other a leg up.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:24 | 2837685 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Makes ya wonder who the originating " chromosomes" were?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:25 | 2838029 youngman
youngman's picture

I was in a fraternity in the 70´s......we drank a lot of beer...a lot of beer....we had beer bongs...shot beers...had it for breakfast on football days....but we never...ever..shot it up our butts.....what is it with this world today..

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 23:25 | 2840975 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

'Tis the Age of Kali-Yuga!


Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:12 | 2837540 AUD
AUD's picture

If virtue is a positive quality, then I'd say it went with the dollar. Government & central bank credit is junk, the opposite of the quality required for the most precious of things - money.

The continuation of government & central bank credit as money will only promote ever more spurious behaviour.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:14 | 2837555 mademesmile
mademesmile's picture

The local St. Louis news top story was on the 40 animals that were rescued from an animal hoarder. So sad.

Meanwhile, the East St. Louis Mayor announced basically house arrest for all teenagers.

1. Minors on the street during school hours will be arrested on sight.

2. Minors are to be off the streets at ten o’clock on both weeknights and weekend nights, or will be arrested. 

3. Police will also perform I.D. checks on street corners and conduct gun searches.

There's more, like a new citywide dress code. “No royal blue, no bright red to be worn by our men or our boys in this community,” Parks said. “Why is that? Those colors have long been affiliated with gang kinds of affiliations”

“Vehicles that are moving will be stopped and searched for guns, weapons, drugs, and open alcohol and any other violations that are taking place,” Parks later told KMOX’s Mark Reardon. “People who are walking, people who are bicycling, can be stopped and searched for the same and, when it comes to state IDs, we’re going to be confirming that state IDs are in place for everyone involved.”

Parks says he won’t hesitate to call in the National Guard if the spike in violence continues.

You can read about the stampede of liberty here.

There is a terrible culture of violence in East St. Louis. Not sure how this is going to help.



Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:54 | 2837631 El
El's picture

They tried the minor curfew thing in the city closest to me and the courts ruled it was unconstitutional.



Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:02 | 2837647 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Time to buy some fresh judges.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:10 | 2837829 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

Free range prison yard. Call it, Non Work Release Pre/Post Incarnation. Gov food, gov housing, gov security, conjucal visits.

Yo, sup?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 20:26 | 2840560 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

If you don't have 'justice' then this is the next best thing.

I travel a small amount (usually about 1-2x/month). Flew into STL, rented car, drove intersate through east st. louis when I saw local 'kids' throwing rocks at passing, big rocks. i had to change 3 lanes to get away from theory, they should be put over someones knee and whipped, then they should have to work off the damages....


very sad.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:22 | 2837560 Mercury
Mercury's picture

The problem is: since 1941 we've "progressed" from Congress declaring war on a specific enemy to not declaring war on a non-specific enemy to approving ongoing and indefinite acts of war on anyone, anywhere who is deemed to have behaved or acted in a certain way.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:38 | 2837595 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

If your only tool is a hammer...

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:52 | 2838057 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Well said.  A trend is not always destiny, but this one sure seems to be. 

Moving forward?

Sat, 09/29/2012 - 00:32 | 2841082 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is FORCE" -- George Washington

Government force is merely the application of state power.  Without power, there can be no force.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:18 | 2837561 booboo
booboo's picture

if the threshold test for virtue, as administered in most institutes of higher learning is as follows we as a nation have failed most miserably.

"If for a million dollars, you could push a button and some poor dirt farmer living in a mud hut in a third world would die and no one would know, would you push the button?"

If by introducing this question they expected a soul searching and awakening to the right of life they instead appeared to have given birth to an idea to men which created a whole new industry in automated killing machines called drones run by youths pushing a button and killing dirt farmers in third world nations. 

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:35 | 2837802 californiagirl
californiagirl's picture

Why do you think so many violent video games have been pushed out to kids everywhere? They help raise excellent, insensitized button pushers.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:23 | 2837835 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Good God, you belong in a " convalescent  ward"!  I started my first business out of my garage!  It had a pool table!

   You, Reiterate the term " PUSSY"!  I have 2 asshole friends that own " Healthcare Cos."

   Give me a reason why?   I'm over the girl thing!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 13:34 | 2839441 californiagirl
californiagirl's picture

LOL! I wasn't being serious!

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:18 | 2837567 CURWAR2012
CURWAR2012's picture

Well written piece. I fear for all those who are completely lost in the culture of suckling from the governments teets.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:41 | 2837600 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Let's see then, the list of teat sucklers would include Wall Street, anyone with a pension, 401K, or stock account that has benefited from the PPT, Fed actions, etc... Most all defense contractors, their subcontractors, and much of the military. Most all bureaucrats at all levels. Most highway workers and any others who worked on projects funded by "stimulus" money. Everyone on unemployment. And I'm sure this list is missing many, many others.

The reality is the fascist-corp conglomeration took over some time ago and have inundated us with lies and propaganda. This attack has created a situation in which most folks don't have an effective understanding of the problem as they try to apply antiquated concepts, ideals (Socialism, Marxism, Capitalism, Communism etc...), and language to explain what they don't understand. It works well for the owners as the peons are easily divided over insignificant issues like being a "teat sucker" or the fake Left/Right paradigm. The old divide and conquer works on the simpletons keeping them mesmerized with the spinning cogs of the machine instead of looking at the engine, power source and control room operators. Considering this situation, about the only hope we have left is that the owner/operators blow up the machine themselves through their own greed and ineptness.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:35 | 2837702 Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

So that whole cycle of insanity can start anew :D

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:55 | 2838062 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Fuck the leaches.  I fear for the rest of us in a world gone morbid.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:22 | 2837576 Bear
Bear's picture

A four year collapse in durable goods orders and our economy slowing worse than we thought and for the second straight quarter  ... did you read about it or hear about it in any of society's watch dogs like PBS, NPR, the New York Times, the Washington Post, CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, Newsweek, Time, AP, McClatchy, Politico, The Huff and Puff, and Reuters ... I think not.

Lies can be told through omission and boy did we get a big one today.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:26 | 2837655 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Good post Bear. No I did not. I don't get my info from main street "douche bags though". I listen to well read," seasoned , traveled professionals", like your self! Update your damn blog ! Bear FX

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:53 | 2837872 Floodmaster
Floodmaster's picture

Include hamburgers in the durable goods orders and everything is fine.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:05 | 2837887 ListLincolnBism...
ListLincolnBismarkRoosevelt's picture

I'm not fare to thing that's on purpose. With the slowdown, ressources from Poutine en Chavez are less valued. The China kid can be managed (look at india after they dare to trade with iran). In short the financial crisis happen with the rise of independant state from the anglobritish bloc. Hasard of the crisis is often in favor of this oligarchy. Look at WWI. With no oil in the british colony before the war, some were lucky after...

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:06 | 2837955 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Gold noticed.  Thanks to the Bernank, every time there is bad economic news or employment data gold will go up because of his open ended QE.  Keep up the good work Ben.  

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:39 | 2837596 valkir
valkir's picture

Unfortunately,President Hoover  didnt have this tool-to give everyone/or @least his voters/ free phone.

Thu, 09/27/2012 - 23:50 | 2837618 covsire
covsire's picture

Virtue?  That's a laugh.  Virtue left with Dignity and Dignity left with Godliness. 

Your average citizen is a Godless, undignified and unvirtuous rabble rouser who wafts around by the winds of every politicians empty rhetoric. 

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:05 | 2837652 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Nothing wrong with being godless. In fact, some of the best sociopaths do it for god.

Ethics and god don't travel on the same bus except by coincidence.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:40 | 2837706 Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

shh dont make Jebus cry.. he does not approve of greed and money-changers.. but likes protestants lol

Start praying if you want to get rich.. worldly accumulation is virtue.. not

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:47 | 2838047 Acet
Acet's picture

In my experience, some of the most loud believers in God are also the most likelly to break the commandments on envy and "not giving false witness on your neighbour", and the least likelly to "turn the other cheek".

Also, you'll notice just how so many loudly religious people are the kind who are less likelly to go to Heaven than a camel is likelly to pass through the eye of a needle.

Oh yeah, and if you think that directly or indirectly causing brown men to be killed with missiles shot from drones is not breaking the commandment on murder, you're bound to have a serious disapointment when you die.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:14 | 2837963 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Whose definition of virtue?

The classical definition? Or the definition that is fed into pliable and uneducated minds by a broken education and corrupted media system?

If a retard believes that he or she is behaving virtuously...


Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:05 | 2837628 AurorusBorealus
AurorusBorealus's picture

The foundation of the United States as a Republic is based upon the idea of virtue.  Jefferson changed the words of John Locke from "life, liberty, and the pusuit of property," to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."  By "happiness,"  Jefferson meant the idea of virtue as expressed in Aristotle.  If you do not believe me, go to your local library, look through the index of the Complete Writings of Thomas Jefferson for "happiness" and "virtue."  Then read Aristotle's The Ethics and The Politics.  Jefferson explained in numerous letters exacly what he meant by happiness.

I agree with much the author writes here, and in general, this is a very good article.  Actions have consequences, sometimes severe and stark, and the market does provide discipline, which encourages virtue.  However, I would observe, that often the most unethical practices are the most successful in any market.  The market is no substitute for a proper education and for a religion that teaches virtue.

Keep in mind that often, in a market, the fittest individuals survive at the expense of everyone else.  This is counter to the laws of nature and evolution as Darwin saw them.  Charles Darwin was no social Darwinist.  For Darwin, the survival of a species was the measure of success in nature, not the survival of the strongest individuals.  The most successful species were those whose behaviors were altruistic at times: species that tended to their weak and their young, species that could cooperate... not cannibals who ate each other in some barbaric, winner take all, social-Darwin-like market.  For Darwin, in the world that God created, natural selection produced virtuous species, not the fittest creatures.  Darwin never used the term "survival of the fittest" -- this was coined by Herbert Spencer (who would today be considered a libertarian).

I have no objection to a market-based economy (liberty and market economics are two sides of the same coin).  I do, however, object to the notion that markets solve all problems and that a libertarian social-Darwin-like world is dictated by the laws of nature.  Darwin believed that evolution produced ethics.  Ethical species survived; those without virtue inevitably perished.  Human beings are the Children of God, but we are cast into this world as creatures and subject to the same rules of nature as all other creatures.  It is very much an open question how long we will survive as a species.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 01:13 | 2837741 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Good post. I's like to add that at the foundation of our system are "inalienable rights”.  Rights with which all human beings are endowed by their “Creator” and for the protection of which they institute governments. Rights given by our “Creator" is the key word. This makes our basic rights, Natural rights which are universal to all humans vs. legal rights which are given by a political and legal system which is always changing.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:57 | 2837877 prains
prains's picture

virtue's been bought, cheap, and ain't coming back in this business cycle

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:01 | 2837645 bushwarcrime
bushwarcrime's picture

President "me" says:

Liquidate bankers, Liquidate lawyers, liquidate SuperPacs, liquidate lobbyists, liquidate arms merchants, liquidate narco terrorists, liquidate TBTF anything,"  and I mean liquidate with extreme predjudice.

The last thing we should be liquidating is our farmers and middle to lower classes

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:06 | 2837656 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

But if we liquidate all those guys, who will be left to whip our asses and make us feel worthwhile?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:15 | 2837666 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

Not sure what author is complaining about.


We all now live a virtual life; our money is virtual, our economies are virtual, our relationships are virtual, our existence is now virtual, our values are virtual. What else do you want?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 00:37 | 2837703 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

A free Obamaphone?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 01:01 | 2837725 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

And the band played on...

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 01:26 | 2837752 Joe A
Joe A's picture

What happened to virtue? TV happened to virtue and the idea that humans are entitled to everything at the expense of others.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:33 | 2837800 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

   You tellme Joe? All ears.>

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 01:28 | 2837755 wisefool
wisefool's picture

Is there any one single poster on Zerohedge who could defend the 80,000 page US tax code from a formalized attack from wisefool?

I am not making you pick sides. As far as I can tell 20,00 pages is for people, and 60,000 pages are for corporations who are also people.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 20:39 | 2840585 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

if a corporation is considered a 'person'....why isn't said 'person' afforded the right in the constituion to vote??

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:13 | 2837788 ironymonger
ironymonger's picture

Yea, verily, where for art virtue on the Zero-humanity?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:29 | 2837789 Questan1913
Questan1913's picture

The take away from this article is that the ruling oligarchy of today is doing exactly the same thing that the financial oligarchy of 1930 did: shifted all their financial losses onto the backs of the working and middle class.  And the result will be the same:  15 to 20 years of real unemployment of 20 percent or more, declining real wages over that time period because of the over supply of labor and a nice tidy war, somewhere along the way, is almost a certainty.   It is difficult to imagine how a supine population could expect a different outcome.  The sociopathic cult of swindlers and their political underlings holding absolute sway over the minds of their subjects, will prevail, again. 

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:16 | 2837895 ListLincolnBism...
ListLincolnBismarkRoosevelt's picture

Who start the war back then ? Trotsky was in New York befor the red revolution. Guaranty Trust take care of the soviet Gold, Bakou become under anglosovietagreement and Armand Hammer was in charge of lot of business ! Then Stalline took the power. I don't know why it was so dramatic for this imperialiste but then Morgan finance Musso in 1926 (100 million $ !), Ford become the best friend of Hilter and so on.

Also, did FDR didnt fight he oligarchy who support Hitler, Franco en Musso ? Come one, the Pecora commission agaisnt the prefered list of Morgan, the tax on high hearning,...


Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:19 | 2837791 q99x2
q99x2's picture

'It is no longer a virtue to succeed.' Depends what you mean by succeed. I succeed at not working. Every day I don't work is another day with God. Can't survive by the fruits of your labor now that the FED has made the world run on fraud. After the FED is done stealing everyone's money and get themselves thrown into prisons and their money re-distributed I might go back to work. Happens all the time over a long enough timeline. They can't help getting their heads loped off or thrown into jails. A lot of times in the past the banksters took down the kings and queens with them.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:19 | 2837792 imbtween
imbtween's picture

"Government is looked to as a savior"
After investing in gov by paying *any* tax for whatever period of time it is just for a people to demnd gov to provide for their basic needs. Otherwise the gov is a mafia.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:20 | 2837793 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

Virtue died with family values, which were destroyed by the state.  All praise the state!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 08:37 | 2838157 kralizec
kralizec's picture

The genesis of all destruction can be traced to the advent of the progressive movement.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 09:44 | 2838423 falak pema
falak pema's picture

that is perfect snake eating tail logic; as "progressive" means "regressive" in that phrase. 

By that token Kings and feudal order  under God that preceded "progressive enlightenment"  was the true "progressive" state of humanty; or should we go back beyond pre-christian days to Kaiseridée? Maybe back to caveman would be picture perfect! 

I feel like "laffing" but by your definition I would be "crying" in despair.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:37 | 2837798 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 VIRTUE  is Right Handed! I'm " ambidextrous" ,and then some!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:01 | 2837881 prains
prains's picture





Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:01 | 2837954 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:45 | 2837806 Coldfire
Coldfire's picture

The result was the longest period of unemployment ever recorded in American history.

The longest so far.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 02:53 | 2837813 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Get used to it.  If you want to start a new business, don't even think about reporting earnings for 5-7 years.

 The City tax Dept will bark up your leg, then you know it's time!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:06 | 2837826 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

All of the central banks and governments of the world are hell bent on maintaining an economically gangrenous situation for the sake of those that have crippled it in the pursuit of profit.

If this strategy persists the next generation will inherit nothing more than a putrid corpse that will unfold with economic and military wars and a great deal of suffering.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:12 | 2837830 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

R- Matey, This is the first time I have seen a 200 hour moving average line move" With the naked eye"!

 Pick yer self up on that bar stool!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:19 | 2837833 autonomos
autonomos's picture

ideological subversion is not a matter of communism vs capitalism. It's all about bringing ugliness into the people (childishness, hysteria, greed...). That's why wisdom is revolutionary.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:31 | 2837847 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

100% Central Banking ( correct(   Paul Rever's ghost)

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:26 | 2837840 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

What happened to virtue?

Plain and brutal answer: 'americanism'.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:34 | 2837846 akak
akak's picture

What happened to hygiene?

Plain and brutal answer: Chinese Shitizenism.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:39 | 2837859 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Missed your beautiful 'competitions'? Beautiful " Eastern European art"?  Pre-war with absolute class/ sigma

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:45 | 2837864 akak
akak's picture

I see your linguistic kaleidoscope is back in operation.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:13 | 2837893 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 You always " Keep me" in line akak.  Raise that spinnaker, you scally wags!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:16 | 2837894 akak
akak's picture

Avast matey!  Aaahhhrrr!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:32 | 2837909 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Avast? Yer pushing the limits! ARRRhhh/

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:56 | 2837876 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

There is no brutal like inter Chinese brutal.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:21 | 2837898 akak
akak's picture

Confusecious say: Never walk on Chinese roadsides unless want to visit Turd World.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:28 | 2837906 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Confusecious say, man with itchy butt, wake up with stinky finger!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:28 | 2837905 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

Is it confirmed he's Chinese? 

He sounds German to me.


Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:34 | 2837910 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

STFU and fetch me an Egg Roll!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:38 | 2837911 akak
akak's picture

He/she has effectively confirmed his Chinese citizenship in many posts, but will adamantly (and cowardly) not declare it directly.  His/her mangled English syntax is, however, not representative of a native speaker of German, or indeed of any Indo-European language, but is highly indicative of the bizarre (to the Western mode of speaking and thinking) structure, grammar and phraseology of Chinese.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:20 | 2837966 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Swinglish and its high-german counterpart are characterized by consistently incorrect pronoun and object usage (from an English standpoint)- i.e. he is not a native German speaker using English as a second language.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:32 | 2837848 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

Details foggy but.....the Princeton Professor Wilson started the misalication with special fiat dollars for WWl boondoggle. Coolidge sensed the bust coming and it was underway when the social engineering believing, self made wwalthy, ernest, Hoover, like Romney was elected to fix ( double down, bail out) the exposed malinvestments.
Coolidge = Ron Paul
Hoover/FDR=Obama, Romney.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:57 | 2837878 ListLincolnBism...
ListLincolnBismarkRoosevelt's picture

How can you say that FDR didn't act against TBTF ???? GlassSteagall, Pecora commission, RFC to invest in real good (not like hoover did),... 

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 08:20 | 2838103 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

FDR made today's TBTF. Thousands of small, local banks were put out of business. How did FDRs SEC do now a days? Total failure. FDR. started Fanny and Freddy. An admirer of Hitler and Italian corporatism. Or as Michael Dukakis loved to say, Public Private Partnership. And, thanks to turn of the century Progressives and the later New Deal we have the fascist political econony that we do.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 15:29 | 2839819 ListLincolnBism...
ListLincolnBismarkRoosevelt's picture

You largely forget Larry Summer, godfather of the subprime, against any congress warning in 2001 and... Major player of the GlassSteagall destruction in 99 !

Saying that FDR create the TBTF is like sayng that he create the 29 crisis. At the end of his road, USA was the most powerfull en industrial country in the world, if not the history !!!! You have a kind of trouble with the fact. Like that without the new deal, USA would have fall (with or without an election, Buttler Plot didn't come from nowhere) in the hand of the Ford, Morgan,... .  And you know wat's funny ? They are the people behind the beginning of the red revolution AND the fascism in Europe (look at the investement of Morgan, Ford,... if it is new to you). Isn't that nice that you give the blame of fascime to FDR who fought and win the war against them ?  

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:38 | 2837858 Expat
Expat's picture

The article and the comments point to the fundamental contradiction in the premise.  On one hand, conservatives and libertarians decry socialism, calling it an evil polity contrary to the true nature of man.  On the other hand, they gleefully pass legislation to gut the Bill of Rights, install monopolies and corruption in industry, and promote a quasi-fascist military oligarchy. 

So, the peasants should be virtuous and free, fend for themselves, achieve monetary and moral independence unfettered by the bonds of Big Government and Evil Social Programs.

But, they must do that while paying for our military empire, serving as soldiers, being frisked on sight, being fed garbage in school and in stores, shutting up and believing in Jesus, and not questionning anything Washington and Wall Street does.

Ok, I got it.  You want Free Slaves.  I applaud the idea, but then again, I am not a slave.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:47 | 2837865 akak
akak's picture

You clearly have no clue what the word "libertarian" means or stands for.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:25 | 2837904 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Coming from a undeclaired " Ethopian "click meister"  ya speak da click ?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:24 | 2838028 Expat
Expat's picture

Do you?  Or are you nitpicking based on the narrow definition of libertarian rather than the marketing slogan bandied about in the political sphere?  Do libertarians want lower taxes but a US Postal Service?  Minimal government but police and courts?  Freedom and liberty but a large military? 

My point is that words like "conservative" and "libertarian" are meaningless.  They are crap spewed out of the mouths of corporate shills and career politicians. 

But otherwise feel free to demonstrate your obvious intellectual and moral superiority by picking out one word from my comments and clearly missing the context.  But I suppose you are a libertarian, so you are free to do whatever you want.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:39 | 2838040 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

akak, my question would be more on the lines of: is the Canada Mises Institute serious and representative for libertarian thought and analysis or is it a small whorish-mercenary think-tank? just asking... I do sense a difference in scope to the Mises Institute based in the US and some similarities to the much bigger, brainier and more influential Cato Institute

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:54 | 2838059 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

oh, I nearly forgot the theme here: Virtue is a positive term that comes from vir = man, meaning, roughly, positive manliness. Originally used in a time when the same virtues that were attributed to a good family (in the patriarchal, man-led sense) could be applied to the sum of all families, the res publica. It was seen in action by though decisions based on reason and principles and with little regard to sensitivities.

to be contrasted to the feminine view of community that looks at issues in a more sensitive, personal and "less principled" way. yin and yang

I'd say several old authors on virtue would be pointing to the modern female franchise as the reason for a perceived lack of virtue

oh, and for seriously good looking candidates

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 14:50 | 2839735 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

yup, it's the "feminines" that killed vir-chew.

I mean, one only need look at the world today, and it's so obvious that "the modern female franchise" is the death of the vir-chews.  did you read about the frat house beer enema party above?

by the way, ever look at a yin/yang symbol?

the concept is fluid, hence no straight lines, and each contains a portion of the "other" which cannot exist without recognising the whole.

what you're talking about is the concept of duality. 

like men = good, women = evil. . . that sort of thing. . .

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:43 | 2837863 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Jeesus H  C. / I'm laughing my ass off.     have fun BOYZ.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 03:52 | 2837871 ListLincolnBism...
ListLincolnBismarkRoosevelt's picture

- How long last de bank regulation GlassSteagall of Roosevelt ? 66 years is short term now ? We can speak also of the electrification en other water infrastructure. The fact that USA was the most powerfull military en indistrualy after his presendency is not mention. Werde.

- Why does not  speak about de Pecora commission and the prefered list of Morgan, I thoug it was all about vertue ?  I was wrong. It is just an other non historical point of vue where there is no empire involve to destroy the public power. You are advocating de private empire like Indian Company and Venetian Bank. Was USA better with the Buttler plot of 1935 ? Even Buttler thougt the opposite.   

- For me, a sheep thing that Lord Keynes en Roosevelt like each other wich is nonsense. Lord Keynes didn't want a GlassSteagall. Lord Keynes was malthusianist ("best philospohe" dixit Keynes), eugeniste (10 year president of the UK leage) and as imperialist, against multilataralisme.

- Under Bretton Wodds legacy of Roosevelt, it open the doors for the greatest consumer market without public debt of all time. This is still the engine of the wolrd economy now. This is not happen with the british empire or the venitian. Go back to school.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:04 | 2837884 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Individual choice and consequences cultivate virtue.

Group choices cultivate adherence, avoidance, or manipulation of consequences.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:25 | 2837903 ListLincolnBism...
ListLincolnBismarkRoosevelt's picture

Before the concept of nation was create, the private venitian empire manipulate the PM, dominate the finance and fight on war with non-sense alliance. After a total control, it callopse leading to the dark age after the fail of Bardi and Peruzzi Banks. Hoppefully, this was before the concept of nation. But some people like to forget 600 years of history and dream of private empire without public counter power.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:37 | 2837892 Anasteus
Anasteus's picture

The mankind suffering from pandemic psychotic disorder.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:39 | 2837902 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

akak has spoken, as usual , he leaves a trail of QUESTION MARKS! Lot's of "Critiique" , with //////A Throat Losenge!

 akak is a sore loser! He is waking up, whilst I'm "not " going to sleep!  akak is GMT+8 ahead of me, and I'll still trade with the "Yellow Tooth", scally wag!    It's in good fun though! I have a lot of respect for that pirate!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 04:44 | 2837913 akak
akak's picture

Just curious, what makes you suppose that I am in the GMT+8 time zone?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 05:00 | 2837922 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Common sense. I'm burnt, can you exorcize these options for me? I'm hedging some " West Pac" bonds against the " Baltic Dry"!

   akak, I'm not in the mood. have a good trading day. I really do like you:-)

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 05:57 | 2837927 falak pema
falak pema's picture

what happened to virtue ?

Ask Reagan and Maggie. Lets start at the beginning, when the US and UK came out of Keynesian thinking and invented the post industrial revolution. 

As thou shalt sow so thou shalt reap. Its a lesson of moral virtue of being responsible for one's past acts. KArma.

And those builders of NWO have reaped it. Bigtime. 

Libertarian thinking combined with grand imperial design, as the US was supposed to astride the world like a Colossus.

One aspect of social construct this poster forgets is that libertarian thinking is NEVER practised in a POLITICAL vacuum. It is practised to help EITHER the democratic thread of society or the aristocratic thread. Thats the political reality. These social witch doctors of the modern age we call economists forget the lessons of the greatest witch doctor of the Economia world : Marx. He didn't have the solution to the problem of the modern industrial age; but he hit the nail on the button by identifying the true ills of the capitalistic construct. 

Andrew Mellon was an aristocrat. He wanted the POOR to pay for the havoc the RICH had already wreaked on the world in their irrational exuberant hubris of the 20s, all backed by THEIR BANK, the FED, of which the MAIN victims in collateral damage were the poor, the democratic elements of the Republic.

The rich always have the world by the nuts; even more so in depression, as they still hold the REMAINING assets. 

So when you say "clean out the rot" you forget to add, "begin at the top and make the money machine more democratic".

Mellon was NOT for destroying the FED. Wake up! Mellon was not for liquidating the power of the rich. Far from it, his will to make the economy a level playing field. He was a BANKER in society. That's how he made his fortune. The premise of this post is an extrapolation of what he said into a practicality that never existed! All false flags and mirrors.

Neither would RR or MAggie have been for destroying the ONE monetary mechanism which gave them the CONTROL to help their own kind in the new capitalist game they invented.

Reality is what it is, made by those who made it. But you can be sure there are people out there who want to rub out the traces of that time line fast, to hide the truth from seeping out. That is what sham politics are ALL about.

Hiding the truth, once the horse has bolted from the barn. These witch doctors sell bad medicine all wrapped in a packaging that is Madison Avenue invented. Sell the myth not the reality! That's libertarian logic.

Ronald Reagan : Elmer GAntry. Said otherwise by NAked Capitalism's Yves Smith :Libertarianism-lite has become the last refuge for the ideological conservative.

who Andrew Mellon was : Andrew W. Mellon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:14 | 2837962 ListLincolnBism...
ListLincolnBismarkRoosevelt's picture

Keynes was Lord, eugenist en malthusianist !!! He never want to fight the banking system, instead he dreamed of establishing the Bancor... Roosevelt hate him and his vue. Wake up ! You should learn from the book of Nicholas Swaxson (treasure island) or Larouche.

Then Marx. He was a rich man. He never work. Even if he critisice some fealure of the british emprie from London, List wrote "national political economy" (favorite book of Bismarck who then create the first social security) 6 years before the marx's communist's manifesto. 7 years before, Henyr carey (close to Lincoln) wrote "pincipel of political economy". carey worte also "slave trade, national and international, why and how to destroy it". 

A major fealure of Marx is to worship the financial capitalisme as it is a step in his utopia. A physician economist would never see the bubble good for something.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:56 | 2837980 falak pema
falak pema's picture

whats yor point?

Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital. It says it all; what he meant, his legacy to subsequent civilization.

Keynes wrote The Economic Consequences of the Peace from Versailles Treaty, then his Opus The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, and then PARTICIPATED in creating BW agreement in 1944. That says the essential about him.

Mellon was Secretary of Finance for 11 years, and MASTERMINDED the exuberant hubris  of mega profits  pumping made by the then Oligarchy class as taxes were cut back.

But those "surplus profits"  DID not feed  VIRTUOUS capitalism. They fed SPECULATIVE capitalism instead and created the WS bubble. He was the main architect of THAT bubble; whatever he may have mumbled about after the horse had bolted in 1931. That is REALITY.

And his spiritual sons today, who knocked back taxes just like he did, who opened the flood gates of supply side economics, who Zirped and repealed GL-ST, who created the derivatives soup; aka RR, Robert Rubin, Greenspan, JAmie Dimon, Hank Paulson and consorts; the Best and Brightest of WS world; all on the same page as good ole Andrew Mellon, created the current runaway capitalist age.

That is reality too. Our reality. Same medicine, same illness! You ARE what you do! 

So what were you saying....?



Fri, 09/28/2012 - 15:47 | 2839867 ListLincolnBism...
ListLincolnBismarkRoosevelt's picture

1°) Roosevelt was against Lord Keynes economic. Lord Keynes is a pure british product pretending that the nation is not able to regulate the banks. Roosevelt did it as all the Europe nation of the 30 glory (45-70'). 

2°) Marx didn't found a movcement that beat impérialisme like Carrey or List. 


Fri, 09/28/2012 - 05:11 | 2837932 forrestdweller
forrestdweller's picture

a mixture of primitive dichtomous thinking,

and a naive belief in the goodness and virtue of the free market.

read some more and visit some other countries and then come back please and write some more.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 05:15 | 2837935 Monk
Monk's picture

But these virtues don't work with free market capitalism.


Fri, 09/28/2012 - 05:26 | 2837943 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

Virtue is on the flag of the State of Virginia, above the seal Sic Semper Tyrannis, with a massive, lit blunt tucked under her arm.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 05:40 | 2837948 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 You effin libtards, wouldn't know virtue if it was a " solar panel" slap!

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 06:17 | 2837964 MFLTucson
MFLTucson's picture

Look at those Democrates who have been involved in the political scene in America and therein lies your answer.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:03 | 2837999 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

"In the age of state welfare pandering, corporate subsidization, and Orwellian monitoring, a longing for true liberty remains totally unconventional.  To many, it is downright radical to take charge of one’s life and wish only to be left in peace."

Nurturing that longing for peace and true liberty in myself and others seems like a full time job, often with no pay.

The Second American Revolution, unfolding now in a neighborhood near you.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:11 | 2838007 forrestdweller
forrestdweller's picture

beautiful words,

but where do you get your food and clothes?

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 07:54 | 2838058 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

Aldis, buying clubs, Amazon, eBay, and thrift stores.

Fri, 09/28/2012 - 08:10 | 2838089 Vince Clortho
Vince Clortho's picture

Virtue was squashed under the boot of unquenchable greed.

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