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Guest Post: It's Not America Anymore

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Brandon Smith of Alt-Market blog

It's Not America Anymore

Many of us in the liberty movement find ourselves searching for a distinct root cause of the trials and tribulations of American culture — the Holy Grail catalyst that, if unraveled, would save this country and heal the septic wounds covering the landscape of our hobbled society. The obvious answer would be to remove the global elites who are poisoning the well from the picture entirely. Yes, this has to be done eventually. However, we must also identify how those elites have been able to so thoroughly con the masses of this nation for so long.

What inherent weakness has made us susceptible to manipulation? For this question, there are NO easy answers. But, if I had to choose a single frailty of our collective psyche as paramount to our downfall, I would say that Americans most of all are confounded by their own patriotism. We often embrace the ideal without knowing what it really means.

There are in fact two kinds of patriotism: the concrete, and the imagined. Many Americans fall haphazardly into the fantasy of being patriotic. They define patriotism upon the exploits of the mainstream and of the government in control at the time. They become cheerleaders for the establishment instead of stalwart champions of their country’s founding principles. In fact, true patriotism is NOT about blindly defending one’s nation or leadership regardless of its trespasses; true patriotism is about defending the philosophy that made one’s nation possible and prosperous in the first place — even if that means standing against the power structure in place today.

I often hear the uneducated and unaware claim that America and its principles have been a bane to the rest of the world. They say America is at the center of the vampire squid, flailing its vicious tentacles against innocent foreign civilizations. This is an oversimplification at best. The crimes that these well-meaning but naïve activists scorn cannot be attributed to “America” because the American ideal has been completely abandoned by those in the seat of power in our modern era. We do not live in “America” — at least, not the America that the Founding Fathers and authors of the Constitution created.  Therefore, the original philosophy that gave birth to America is not the issue, the abuse and neglect of that philosophy is.

America has been ransacked and deformed into a hideous lampoon of its former self. This has been done for the most part through the destruction of the guiding principles we pretend we still hold onto as a culture, but in reality have cast aside. If we are ever to undo the damage that has already been done, we have to rediscover what the original design of America was. Wailing and growling about the inadequacies of the present does nothing unless we also establish where it is that we have fallen from grace. What is America supposed to be? What did the Founders truly intend?

America Is Supposed To Be Controlled By The People

The concept of a Republic revolves around a reversal of the traditional narrative of power. Throughout most of history, government stood at the top of the pyramid, where the hands of a few dominated the destinies of the citizenry. The future was a matter for the elites, not the peasants, to be concerned with. The American Republic, as designed by the revolutionary colonists who defeated the old oligarchy (at least for a time), flipped the role of government to servant rather than master. The goal was to make government tangible and accountable rather than abstract and untouchable. The America of today has no such accountability anymore.

We have a two-party system that pursues the mechanizations of globalism in tandem, not in contest. When both parties have the same desires and goals, when both parties collude to remove civil liberties rather than protect them, and when both parties are funded by the same corporate backers, there is no such thing as change through the process of elections. Anyone who claims that government corruption can be punished through the ballot box hasn’t the slightest clue how our system really functions. They think we are still living in the original “America,” one that values the voice of the people.

When the government decides to push through banker bailouts, the Patriot Act, the National Defense Authorization Act, etc., all while ignoring opposition by a vast majority of citizens, it is clear that the paradigm has shifted and the American value of representation by and for the people is lost.

America Is Supposed To Prosper Through Free Markets

One of the first acts of the American Revolution in the fight against British tyranny was to decouple from British economic dominance. They stopped relying on goods produced in England and peddled by the European merchant class and began making their own. From homespun clothing to homemade rifles, Americans created a legitimate free-market environment. Free markets are systems controlled by the people, thriving on the natural functions of supply and demand. They are not administered by bureaucracies or corporate hierarchies that manipulate the economy to fit preconceived political and social ends.

Free markets are decentralized markets. Corporations, which obstruct decentralization, were never meant to exist according to Adam Smith, the architect of traditional free markets. Today’s framework operates on centralization and the removal of options and choices, which is facilitated by the imbalance and lack of accountability in the corporate legal structure.

I have to laugh every time I hear someone attack “capitalism” and free markets as the source of all our ills. America has not had the pleasure of free markets for at least 100 years (since the construction of the private Federal Reserve, a collusion between banking and government interests). No one alive today has ever seen an actual American “free market” beyond community barter, so to blame free markets for our modern failings is rather thoughtless.  To summarize, the U.S. economy is nothing like what the founders envisioned and fought for.

America Is Supposed To Have A Reserved Foreign Policy

The Founding Fathers specifically sought to keep America out of foreign entanglements and haphazard alliances. They knew from experience that the elites and monarchies of Europe often used wars as a means of consolidating power and keeping populations in relative fear. They were well aware of the methodologies of Niccolo Machiavelli and knew that forced alliances were a trap used to ensnare nations into unnecessary conflict and financial dependency while keeping the masses subservient through false patriotism.

Today, our government has utterly violated the original principles of reserved foreign policy, especially in the past century. The excuse always used is that “we are under attack,” yet we usually discover later that these “attacks” were actually fabricated by our own leaders. From the sinking of the USS Maine, to the sinking of the Lusitania, to the Gulf of Tonkin and beyond, for the past 100 years, Americans have been presented with false flag threats used as leverage to convince us to become entangled in foreign engagements. This strategy has become so common that elitists now openly admit their intentions to commit future false flags in order to draw us into yet another war, this time with Iran.

The current policy of “exporting democracy” has not only been a complete failure (just look at Egypt, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.), it is also a total affront to the foundation of the American dynamic. Patriotism in the name of interventionism is foolhardy and decidedly un-American.

America Is Supposed To Respect Individual Rights

The Founders witnessed the extreme abuses of government firsthand: invasion of privacy, invasion of property, wrongful arrest and imprisonment, loss of representation, overt and malicious taxation, thuggish law enforcement, and the targeting of those who dared to dissent in their speech. The excuse used by the British for their tyrannical behavior was, essentially, national security. In the end, though, the elites’ actions had nothing to do with security for the populous and everything to do with what they saw as opposition to their hegemony. Our government has become a mirror image of the elitist power-mongers of Britain in the days of the revolution. Absolutely everything the colonists fought against has been re-established by the globalists in our political structure today, once again, all in the name of national security.

We have seen the enslavement of our money supply and general economy by the Federal Reserve; invasive and violent taxation through the Internal Revenue Service; loss of privacy through the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance and the Patriot acts; loss of property rights through multiple agencies including the Bureau of Land Management, the Environmental Protection Agency, the IRS, the Food and Drug Administration, etc. (who claim their tightening fist is for our own safety, yet they constantly overlook corporate misdeeds that put the public in true danger while pummeling average citizens for minor or non-existent offenses); the militarization of law enforcement through the Department of Homeland Security and Federally dominated fusion centers; potential loss of Habeas Corpus through the NDAA; and even wrongful arrest against those who merely speak openly of their discontent (look into the case of Marine veteran Brandon Raub for a taste of what lay ahead).

What Have We Become?

Those who rally behind the modern concept of America rally behind a façade — an empty shell devoid of the heart and soul that gave life to this once great experiment. I do not support what America is. I support what America was and what it could be again if the truth is adequately smashed into the faces of the currently oblivious public. If this country is content to suckle from the putrid teat of globalism and forsake the moral force of conscience that gave it life, then it has become another place — an alien land.

I have heard the argument that America is meant to be a kind of chameleon built to change its stripes and adapt to the demands of the era. I have heard it argued that the Constitution and the principles of the Founding Fathers are outdated and inadequate for our new age of technological wizardry and terrorist ideologies. This is pure intellectual idiocy. The principles of freedom never expire. Individual liberty is inherent and eternal. It is the driving force of every great accomplishment in the history of mankind. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights embody the spirit of that eternal battle of individual liberty. There is no adaptation. There is only freedom or tyranny.

It is time for us to decide what kind of Americans we wish to be: the deluded rah-rah puppets of a desiccated totalitarian society, or the watchmen on the wall. Will we be the keepers and protectors of the vital core of the American identity, or will we be fly-by-night consumers of the flavor-of-the-day political carnival, eating every tainted sample from the elitist platter in an insane attempt to replace our free heritage with a sleek, sexy, rehashed form of top-down feudalism?


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Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:30 | 2852335 unrulian
unrulian's picture

the principles of the founding fathers died with them

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:33 | 2852358 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

Brother Nathaniel on the media:

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:34 | 2852366 Manthong
Manthong's picture

And, it's gone!

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:42 | 2852376 Dalago
Dalago's picture

How about a Federal government that can not make laws.  Just enforce the Consitution.  All laws will be made at a State/Local level.  Federal government would be more of a moral compass rather than make stupid laws.  Amendments would be from the States.


0 room for run-a-way federal government.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:51 | 2852443 EscapingProgress
EscapingProgress's picture

Confederation baby!

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:42 | 2852920 redpill
redpill's picture

The steps required are fairly straight forward, but of course will never happen because it would involve the federal government giving up much of its illegally-claimed power.

1) No more wars without Congressional Declaration of War

2) End the central banking charade that is known as the Federal Reserve and return to sound money

3) Repeal of the 16th amendment, dismantle the IRS, replace with single point-of-sale transaction tax on new retail goods and services

4) A Bill of Rights Rennaissance movement that demands our rights as individuals are respected

5) Balanced Budget Amendment

We do these 5 things and in 5 years we would not only be once again a beacon of freedom but also the most productive country in the world. Capital, investment, and jobs would flood back in from across the globe.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:51 | 2852958 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

It's so easy, but it won't be done. All must go down the shitter first before the next iteration of how things run will be decided.

*weeps for the future*

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:01 | 2853182 Dalago
Dalago's picture

End power delegations to the federal level.  The more the powers are siphoned into representatives; the more vigilance is needed.  The Constitution was great but not perfect in maintaining the Natural Law because it's pending on 2 things; honest representatives and active people.  Both won't happen perpetually.  SO... get rid of it.  Get rid of all three sections of government.  No president, no federal house and no federal senate and defer most government structure/power to the States.  State Senate and Houses will pick up the slack and the people will be more powerful.  Where is your voice in DC?  Companies/Banks have auctioned off the country.

Power would be permanently decentralized.  The only way to protect your natural law is to stop delegating powers to others and by keeping that power closer to you.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 18:09 | 2853688 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Nah, all of that flies in the face of several millenia of history.  The continued centralisation of power and the increasing attempts to bolster a central state apparatus to protect the kernal from the chaff is clearly the way things are going to go if we are to have any chance of preserving our values in a meaningful form.

Liberty is a quaint notion, but we have an ideal to preserve here.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 20:21 | 2853998 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

"It's Not America Anymore"...WTF yes it is...America is now the land of Broken Promises and Fools Gold...want some proof, sure, here, and this is just sneak  peak of what's to come. Be warned!

Here's a taste of the US Government's NEW track record.

Where the US Government has been, and is, taking you:

Where the US Government ends up taking you:

Where the US Government ends up taking LEAVING you:

Do you honestly think that the US Gov or anyone on Wall St gives a fuck about the average Joe? Wasted lives, wasted money, wasted psyche and an endless series of failures (wars, financial, standard of living)...transferred from those who lose little and gain those who lose all and gain nothing...THAT, is the NEW US-of-A!

Restrepo is a glaring example of just how the US elite are shamelessly capable of turning their backs on the sacrifice of others, over and over again...and it's gonna get much-much worse. Just wait till the Middle Earth heats up.

Either change it, or shut the fuck up and take it.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:56 | 2852974 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Sorry. We've tried all that, and we ended up here. We tried the smallest government known to man, and now have the biggest government ever. Definition of insanity.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:11 | 2853022 redpill
redpill's picture

We wound up here because we haven't been dutifully watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:34 | 2853169 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

So easy to blame it on other's for not acting out in violence and murder...


You people are morons...

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:43 | 2853204 redpill
redpill's picture

I wasn't being literal, dumbass.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:04 | 2853305 pupton
pupton's picture

How about a Consitution that ablolishes permanently the existance of any federal government.  It would be really short, and everyone would be able to understand it.  "There shall be no federal government of these united States.  Each State is a sovereign nation free to make its own laws in keeping with its own Constitution.  If you don't like the laws or Constitution in your state, fight to change them or pick one of the other 49 states to move to."

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 18:09 | 2853684 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



How about a Consitution that ablolishes permanently the existance of any federal government. 

Then you wouldn't need a Constitution.

Constitution is a government creating document.  It establishes a government and declares the powers and duties of that government.

By the way, we don't need the Constitution to have individual rights.  Individual rights are not created in the Constitution.  They exist prior to the Constitution. 

People often cite the Constitution as the source of a particular right, but it isn't.  It merely references rights that existed previously. 

If the Federal government ever shut down and dissolved, the Constitution would no longer be applicable, but you wouldn't lose one single right, because they existed before the Constitution  was written.

What is the proper source to cite?  The declaration of Independence.   It declares the existence of rights people normally attribute to the Constitution.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:04 | 2852997 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

This was one of the best articles on ZH ever....

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:12 | 2853365 GAAPpreNixon
GAAPpreNixon's picture

Paul Craig Roberts recently interviewed one of the those real leaders who was demonized for speaking truth to power.

She knows what to do and even believes we can still do it. The secret is to stop thinking an immoral and corrupt version of Homo SAP is normal and expected. That is how we have been gamed to not question the absolute rejection of common decency by our political and media presstitutes and oligarchic lakeys.

Rod Serling: Logic is the enemy and truth is a menace.

Charie Chaplin explains what REAL normal human behabior is.

Stop believing that Social Darwinism is scientific. It's not. It's a pseudo-scientific construct by the oligarchs. It's Madison Avenue S&M cheap psychology con artist crap to convince you that Sadism is natural for the top position and Masochism is natural for YOU (i.e. the bottom position). BULLSHIT! It also conveniently pits you against your fellow slaves in a dog eat dog envy contest to get to be a top sadist. That is the "method" in oligarchic "madness.

Cooperation is far more important among species in nature than predation. That is the part that the Gilded Age assholes conveniently left out when they "adopted" (coopted is more like it!) the Theory of Evolution tenet labelled "survival of the fittest" to explain their brutality and inhumanity to man and the biosphere. These suicidal fucks are doing away with our life support system and calling it science!

The scientific community is noticing and raising their voices.

Mission: Possible

Cooperation, not competition, is the way forward.

By Mary Beth Aberlin | October 1, 2012

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 18:26 | 2853756 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

wonderful quote by her:

The military might of the US is being used to benefit a very small group of men and women who have the rest of humankind hoodwinked as to the true nature of what is going on. The rest of humankind can’t imagine that amount of greed and willingness to kill and so, are easily fooled and tricked by the individuals who control the new system that is being created. It is, sadly, a case of 'willful blindness.'

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 21:05 | 2854209 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


Cooperation is far more important among species in nature than predation. That is the part that the Gilded Age assholes conveniently left out when they "adopted" (coopted is more like it!) the Theory of Evolution tenet labelled "survival of the fittest" to explain their brutality and inhumanity to man and the biosphere. These suicidal fucks are doing away with our life support system and calling it science!

a perspective & voice too rare on these threads, and most welcome - here's hoping you post more, and frequently

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:05 | 2853002 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

"Such being the case, it must necessarily follow, that some one portion of the community must pay in taxes more than it receives back in disbursements; while another receives in disbursements more than it pays in taxes. It is, then, manifest, taking the whole process together, that taxes must be, in effect, bounties to that portion of the community which receives more in disbursements than it pays in taxes; while, to the other which pays in taxes more than it receives in disbursements, they are taxes in reality—burthens, instead of bounties. This consequence is unavoidable. It results from the nature of the process, be the taxes ever so equally laid, and the disbursements ever so fairly made, in reference to the public service…

The necessary result, then, of the unequal fiscal action of the government is, to divide the community into two great classes; one consisting of those who, in reality, pay the taxes, and, of course, bear exclusively the burthen of supporting the government; and the other, of those who are the recipients of their proceeds, through disbursements, and who are, in fact, supported by the government; or, in fewer words, to divide it into tax-payers and tax-consumers.

But the effect of this is to place them in antagonistic relations, in reference to the fiscal action of the government, and the entire course of policy therewith connected. For, the greater the taxes and disbursements, the greater the gain of the one and the loss of the other—and vice versa; and consequently, the more the policy of the government is calculated to increase taxes and disbursements, the more it will be favored by the one and opposed by the other.

The effect, then, of every increase is, to enrich and strengthen the one, and impoverish and weaken the other. This, indeed, may be carried to such an extent, that one class or portion of the community may be elevated to wealth and power, and the other depressed to abject poverty and dependence, simply by the fiscal action of the government; and this too, through disbursements only—even under a system of equal taxes imposed for revenue only. If such may be the effect of taxes and disbursements, when confined to their legitimate objects—that of raising revenue for the public service—some conception may be formed, how one portion of the community may be crushed, and another elevated on its ruins, by systematically perverting the power of taxation and disbursement, for the purpose of aggrandizing and building up one portion of the community at the expense of the other. That it will be so used, unless prevented, is, from the constitution of man, just as certain as that it can be so used; and that, if not prevented, it must give rise to two parties, and to violent conflicts and struggles between them, to obtain the control of the government, is, for the same reason, not less certain."

John C. Calhoun

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:52 | 2852449 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I would prefer that the government is not my moral compass either.............

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:58 | 2852476 Dalago
Dalago's picture

Word.  0 say in the American people's lives.  Its a work in progress.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:14 | 2852555 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Repeal the 17th Amendment and you can get there.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:03 | 2852770 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Excuse me stewardist, but I speak Jive.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:38 | 2853088 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Silly me mentioning the Holy Grail the other day but as the one who did it, I 'll take all the blame as intended.

Guess what:

" Many of us in the liberty movement find ourselves searching for a distinct root cause of the trials and tribulations of American culture — the Holy Grail catalyst that, if unraveled, would save this country and heal the septic wounds covering the landscape of our hobbled society"

There might be no such thing as American Culture and the ethnic discussion is beyond legal in most jurisdictions,
and the Holy Grail is a knights issue, as in fight club
in popular fashion right here.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:40 | 2853195 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture


Turkey bombing targets INSIDE Syria.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:55 | 2852464 ATM
ATM's picture

Not workable since the Federal government has specific tasks it alone must perform. A better idea might be this - every 20 years all federal laws, regulations, executive orders get tossed and we start over. Sort of Thomas Jefferson's every 20 year revolution idea only done without guns if not necessary. Also a refining of the wordng of the Constitution could be done as well since language usage changes over time.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:52 | 2852734 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Not workable since the Federal government has specific tasks it alone must perform. 


Like keeping illegals out of the country?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:59 | 2852985 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

What makes one "illegal?" Why? Why is it a problem?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:16 | 2853062 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

What makes it illegal?  Crossing the border without authorization. Why is it a problem?  Why not ask Mexico, that shoots-to-kill Costa-Ricans caught attempting to cross into Mexico so they don't take Mexican jobs?

Why borders?  Why can't I just come to your house and eat everything in your refrigerator, take everything I want out of it, and take a big dump in your living room on my way out?  Why would that be a problem?   Or maybe your car - just hand me the keys, thanks. 

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:38 | 2853185 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You just equated the Federal Government to an Individual, and people wonder what gave the Federal Government and the statists so much power.


Think before you speak..

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:54 | 2852742 dbTX
dbTX's picture

Bad idea ATM. The Constitution was perfectly written. The problem is that it's being re-written daily by the courts. Leave well enough alone.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:47 | 2852945 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

No, the Constitution the sucked ass when it was adopted, it sucks even more now.

Federalism replaced Confederation and this killed the Republic.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:07 | 2853015 Darth Sidious
Darth Sidious's picture

shoulda listened to patrick henry! he smelled a rat

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:33 | 2853521 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

so did John Lansing

the kind of government recommended by the convention could not "afford that security to equal and permanent liberty which we wished to make an invariable object of our pursuit." 

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:39 | 2853188 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Perfectly written for statists, yes.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:30 | 2852879 V in PA
V in PA's picture

...since language usage changes over time


It's called 'NewSpeak'

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:43 | 2852929 Karl von Bahnhof
Karl von Bahnhof's picture

Only one solution - military dictatorship. Sorry. Get prepared.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:06 | 2853011 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

I get to be in Command first...

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:22 | 2852588 Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture

How about giving freedom loving citizenry ONE STATE in this Union where freedom reigns and where we do not have to be subservient to federal laws for our businesses, our health, our education, our cars, our homes, our roads, etc.

This will never happen....because one little taste of freedom would result in a flood if immigration into the free state. Slavery will never win when freedom rings. Which is why our enslavement must be coerced, because if given a choice productive citizens would never chose enslavement.   But we don’t have a choice, because the parasites of society (Bankers, Bureaucrats, Recipients of .gov cash from the industrial complexes to Aid to Families with Dependent Children) need hosts to keep their parasitic lives going, and they will willing live behind a wall as long as they can keep YOU behind a wall.

The parasites are growing…


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:18 | 2852835 RSloane
RSloane's picture

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that one before.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 19:19 | 2853910 saints51
saints51's picture

seems like a setup for a FEMA camp.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:57 | 2852978 elementary
elementary's picture

Don't you know that anyone espousing the principles of our Founding Fathers or the Constitution is now considered a domestic terrorist?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:32 | 2853159 DrewJackson
DrewJackson's picture

Which Constitution would that be?   Yours?  Judge Roberts'?   Obama's?  Pelosi's?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:33 | 2853161 WarriorClass
WarriorClass's picture

It's Not America Anymore, because Americans were replaced with foreigners.  Legal immigration, due to the Immigration Reform Act of 1965, has done more damage to this country than illegal immigration could ever have hoped to do. Americans now think it's OK to replace the population of freedom loving Americans with third world collectivists, as long as it's "legal." Legal immigrants now out number the American population of 1965, which is why we have Obama for President. See "Alien Nation: Common Sense About America's Immigration Disaster" by Peter Brimelow.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 21:15 | 2854240 pods
pods's picture

Kind of an ass backwards argument.  Who exactly voted for the immigration act?  Those who were here.

You cannot blame immigrants for following the policy that the "natives" have set up.


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:02 | 2852510 Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

Western Rifle Shooters Association. If all you've got is hot air, don't bother showin'. Serious men.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:27 | 2852614 jcpicks
jcpicks's picture


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:42 | 2852400 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

re: "Free markets are systems controlled by the people, thriving on the natural functions of supply and demand." free markets are NOT controlled by people. they are uncontrolled and that is how they generate peaks and troughs. the fed controls more at bails out, thus we are not in a trough moving out, rather, we are levitating 2x market values in a place that is neither peak nor trough, but a controlled ponzi.

Fed announces QE3 for MBS -> JPM gets busted on MBS one week later. Reggie M.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:35 | 2852363 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Those principles were DOA. How much of that crap was based upon Adam Smith's writing's? You know the same Smith that you can read now and see the obvious Social-Democrat justifications built right in. Nevermind that most of the book was likely plagiarized, except for the last chapter where he goes all Social Justice on us.


I still present that the evidence show's Adam Smith to be the first Socialist.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:45 | 2852393 falak pema
falak pema's picture

lol, when troll meets baby doll. You should have been in a Kazan movie; like on the waterfront.

Now that was true socialism on the rocks in the docks, and Eva was a doll that had the whispy, frail perfume of a Saint.

And Cain was the first evil man. Ooops, I forgot the Serpent and Adam's apple and Adam's rib! 

Still looking for original "socialist" sin...well that was Jesus! Before Adam Smith, not before Adam.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:32 | 2853136 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You should probably read the book before flapping your ignorance. I expected to get junked, primarily by idiots dreaming the dream that believe was real. I can be certain that out of every junk I received, none of the people that junked me actually read his book.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:26 | 2853117 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:30 | 2853143 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Go read his book, the parts that weren't plagarized were essentially socialist in nature.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:53 | 2853248 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

Reading this hurts my brain.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:37 | 2852381 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I do not wish to be insulting.....but this adoration of the founding fathers is a controlling public myth. Most (notice that I did not say all) of the men who "founded" America were neither moral nor in the mood to share the spoils. They created a document that was long on rhetoric and short on actual freedom.....except for those who already held power.

Women, children and slaves were still housed in the bilge.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:42 | 2852406 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

1. - How is it controlling?

2 - "Women, children and slaves were still housed in the bilge."  Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the great.  What the FF established was unique and empowering.  It provided the opportunity for women, children, and slaves to ascend from the bilge.  And they did.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:48 | 2852432 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

No state can grant you, nor protect your freedom. It is your personal responsibility to do so and no one else's. When you imbue the state with those powers the inevitable happens.

The glorious history of America is not as pretty as it appears in the history books. All Empires evolve, and corrupt, along the same lines. America is no different, despite the myth that just a few bad apples have destroyed America.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:59 | 2852485 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Most people rather enjoy playing the part of victim in an "accidental" America............

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:05 | 2852523 ATM
ATM's picture

"What have we got a republic or a monarchy?" 

"A republic, if you can keep it." - Benjamin Franklin


The nature of man and the nature of government lead always to the same place. - ATM

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:59 | 2852982 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

agreed that,

The glorious history of America is not as pretty as it appears in the history books.

and you might possibly agree that unless / until people allow that historical myth to vacate some space in their minds, they'll continue to believe what they think they know. . . that which was told to them, but never experienced as truth.

mutually exclusive, cannot exist on both sides, and need to seek truth before finding same.


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:27 | 2853119 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I could not have said that better myself. Want to ghost write for Cog? :>)

It is the act of seeking truth that clears the way towards truth. You do not find truth; it finds you only when you are ready.

<When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.>

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:06 | 2853320 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

On that topic....


"(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."


If you're not troubled...there's something wrong with you.

It means you're a lazy ass and you haven't been out seeking anything.
You prefer the safe comfort of your illusions.

Beliefs and ideas are meant to be challenged...and when found to be false...shitcanned.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 18:43 | 2853821 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


Want to ghost write for Cog? :>)

the astute ZH reader would no doubt realise that you and I often write about the same topic, albeit viewed from different perspectives, which makes perfect sense when truly thought about. . .

would just like to add, over the 3 years or so I've read your posts/topics, you've re-fined the words to a more succinct truth.

always a pleasure.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:00 | 2852497 Dagny Taggart
Dagny Taggart's picture

Our underlying incentive to remain captive slaves, carefully hidden from view under the false promise of a system of laws meted out by the scrupulously just, but blessedly blind, lady with the scale, comes from the implied threat of violence if we don’t do as we are told. That’s it, it’s really not more complicated than that, no fancy whistles or bells or complicated playbooks to learn, though the ‘rules of the game’ is the Golden lure that keeps us all enthralled and thoroughly hooked.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:11 | 2852798 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Is Trinity the avatar of Dagny Taggart?


Pretty cool.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:43 | 2852410 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Absolutely, and they were all but physically forced to include the Bill of Rights with the Constitution. Alexander Hamilton's vision for America is alive and well because the Constitution provided the framework necessary for the eventual implementation of that very vision. The Bill of Rights was only a speed bump on the road to serfdom.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:43 | 2852930 CH1
CH1's picture

Shocking well said for a lunatic. :)

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:46 | 2852421 akak
akak's picture

For the very first time, CD, I find one of your comments to be intellectually insulting.

Were the Founding Fathers perfect?  No.

Were they and their actions a great leap forward, morally and in practice, for mankind?  Absolutely.


Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:53 | 2852455 falak pema
falak pema's picture

ratatat tat, you shoot straight from the hipppp!

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:06 | 2852474 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

In case anyone is watching what is actually going on the very document which supposedly freed us is being used to enslave us. And this didn't just start in the last decade or so, but has been going on since Lincoln.....and I would argue from the very beginning.

The founding fathers were not as they have been presented in the history books. If you believe that we are being lied to now why would you possibly believe we have not been lied to in the past. You mean everything was hunky dory until recently? And why would you believe our own history as presented by the state propaganda channel aka the school system.

Time to re-examine the motives, methods and misue of power by many of the founding fathers. And I repeat what I said about. I did not say ALL of the founding fathers.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:07 | 2852528 centerline
centerline's picture

This one really got your fangs out CD.  Pretty cool.  I'll kindly take the middle road here and say that both you and AKAK both have really solid points.

In general though, we are clearly not immune to the same corruption that has plagued virtually every major society/city-state/etc.  Human nature seems constant and winds up creating these cycles it appears we are destined to experience.  This time is a real beauty considering what technology and cheap energy have allowed us to bring to the party.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:16 | 2852556 Dagny Taggart
Dagny Taggart's picture

I agree, it is a very cool discussion. Perhaps it is our collective idea of what "human nature" is or once was that has been corrupted most. I think that is what Cog means by finding our Sovereign by looking within. Until we can do that, history will continue to repeat.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:58 | 2852604 centerline
centerline's picture

+1.  This really is the root of all evil and why we seem to be destined to repeat history.  The predators of this world really do use basic human nature as a weapon... as a means to consoldate power... etc.  Fear, greed, lust... all the vices seems to be so easy to leverage.  It is all see these days in most people... combinations of emotions and addictions each reinforcing the other as the world accelerates into a socio-economic blow-off top.  Of course, since we are in denial stage now, we all know the anger and desperation stages are coming.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:24 | 2852861 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I walked out of a cooperative grocery store (where they have real or almost-real food) one day and on my windshield was left this little card wih a rainbowy background and a handwritten message. It read:

"Peace is not achieved by controlling nations, but by the mastering of your thoughts. Be the change."

I don't think I can agree more with a statement than that one. Very few people look inside themselves to break everything down and understand it all. Introspection goes a long way my friends.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:41 | 2852923 V in PA
V in PA's picture

“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye - Jesus

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:00 | 2852987 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I've been trying to understand the big push toward narcissism that's so prevalent with the technologies that have sprung up in the last decade. Narcissim makes a person weak - instead of being happy with your own damn self, you need validation ("likes," lol) from the outside to tell you that you're okay, that you're cool, that you are popular and well-liked. The whole thing has turned into a facade of "it's all about you" push from the makers of technology and policy and everything else, and an "it's all about me me me!" mentality adopted by the masses who will readily accept anything shoved down their throats.

What the fuck happened to everyone?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 21:20 | 2854259 pods
pods's picture

That is why I like fishing and being alone in the woods.  The fish really don't give a damn who I am, and I have yet to feel the need to be liked in the woods.

You won't find peace like that around electricity.


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 22:27 | 2854506 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I am an outdoor person myself. The California redwoods remind me that without all the other human meddlin and whatnot, this place is pretty rad. When I go backpacking on beaches, I wake up early in the morning, collect a bunch of rocks, sit facing the ocean, and throw them at branches or bigger rocks as target practice. I don't get why a lot of people don't appreciate good old fashioned outdoor fun anymore.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:54 | 2852967 jayman21
jayman21's picture

+1 - Freedom is a state of mind.  I like CD ideas which he has claimed repeatedly that they are recycled from various critical thinkers throughout history.


You have a choice to be a slave or not.  When you are free, you decide if you are happy, sad, mad, no one else can decide this for you.  If you think something makes you mad, sad, happy, you have lost your freedom.  I like the idea of our founding fathers, but my critical thinking skills will side with CD.  I work on being free each and every day.  Breaking the cycle of human nature starts with critical thinking and understanding what it means to be free.  It is not the same for everyone.  Enjoy the ride.


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:21 | 2853094 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"I like the idea of our founding fathers....."

Very nice. I do as well.

Call me a wet blanket or worse, but I just don't trust anything that comes from the machine nor from the first or second set of references used to support the machine. Corruption isn't new, but in fact has existed for thousands of years.

We have been so deeply conditioned that we cannot even begin to discern what is what until and unless we first conduct a ruthless and thorough self examination of our self. Then and only then can we move on to the world around us.

We have no chance of "knowing" the truth if we accept at face value any prepackaged "truth". Being sovereign means being totally responsible for oneself....and this includes applying critical thinking to everything, including the things you "know" to be true....thus they don't need to be examined. Those are most in need of critical examination.

Once you are done.....repeat again and again and again.


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:31 | 2853146 pods
pods's picture

And be prepared to be wrong.



Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:43 | 2853206 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture


I always say that I reserve the right to be wrong 100% of the time and half wrong the other half. I have lost count of the number of times I have had to upchuck some cherished belief only to find myself back kneeling in front of the porcelain God for a second, fifth and tenth time refunding some silly state propaganda I just knew was true.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 21:23 | 2854271 pods
pods's picture

The more I have learned the more I know I have really learned nothing. 

I have made strides in my critical thinking though.

When I think back to what I "knew" in the past I feel ashamed.  And use that as motivation to not follow others, unless it is in fact the best path.


Thu, 10/04/2012 - 00:06 | 2854772 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture


Just in hopes you might read this, long after the thread has died...

I think I think much as you do,

but what I gleaned from your comments here is that you really are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The product of the FF's is the important thing,

and you are attacking the individuals who - collectively and concertedly - spit it out the most important and successful set of documents and principles in history.

Don't let your cynicism take control and cloud your view of... everything.


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:35 | 2853174 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

If you haven't earned the knowledge to understand or appreciate the history and the process of how you are able to lift your tap and get running water or flip a switch and get electricity... do you deserve them?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:45 | 2853214 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Careful Skateboarder. You are treading on hallowed ground there. :)

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:23 | 2853445 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

My favorite kind to tread on. ;)

I have for a long time followed the principle that you deserve what you earn. "Deserve" is a weird word by its own - it reeks of unwarranted desire. But when I equate it with earning, it all makes sense, because truthful knowledge is earned through logic and reason, wealth is earned through physical toil, and wisdom is earned through ruthless introspection. Thus, what you know is limited to the soundness of your logic and reason, your wealth is limited to how well you can apply your knowledge and how hard you are willing to work (let's leave externalities like the corrupt global economic system aside for a second - one can still accumulate sufficient wealth despite its nasty clutches), and how wise you are is limited to how ruthlessly you are willing to critique yourself.

Bleating on about freedom without an inkling of what it is... clamouring about privacy without any understanding whatsoever of what it means... defending the notion of "intellectual property" without understanding the nature of information... expecting free energy without any knowledge of the history and current processes of what it takes to put energy on the table... attacking "drugs" (the kind that get you high) without understanding the concept of responsible mind alteration (while big pharma rapes the common man)... declaring wars on words and ideas without understanding that ideas predate the human species...

I know whatever I have in my head, in my hands... I have earned it. I don't simply believe it man - I know it, because I've earned it, and earning something shows proof. Solid motherfucking proof.

Have they earned it? If not, do they deserve what they preach?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:15 | 2853392 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Exclude certain historical truth from the truth seekers
to do list because this is beyond any sane person can take.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 20:31 | 2854100 outofhere
outofhere's picture

"TRUTH" is THE key.  Sovereignty is not a state of mind, it is the mind free of corruption.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:35 | 2852661 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

History is not what will bring us out from the brink - only action will do that.  I totally agree with CD.  The Constitution, while illuminating in it's concept of restricting the government to limited powers, was ultimately a flawed idea because over time it came to be believed that a piece of paper protects the freedom of the nation.  I got lots of paper on my desk and they ain't doing shit.  Eventualy people will remember who and what is responsible for securing Liberty, but not any time soon.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:41 | 2852914 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

"middle road" analogous with centerline?  Missed literary wordplay, -1.  +2 for the compromising view point.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:38 | 2852679 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture


There's a major philosophical issue involved here.  The idea that we can create a PERFECT FORMULA which will forever define how we structure basic rules for society appears to me to be a pipe-dream.  The Constitution was a terrific document, but maintaining a "free and fair society" is something that requires CONSTANT effort, as human corruption exists at every step in any process, and most people will never want to bother to try to understand where the real "pain points" develop.

People like simple catchphrases, not detailed explanations of what went wrong and why it's not easy to "fix" something that started developing 150 years ago.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:15 | 2852772 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

the Articles of Confederation was much more terrific imo.  for example, read Article V of the Constitution and ask yourself if it is not intentionally vague in its verbiage and why.

agree that it does take constant effort from the citizenery, the problem that Article V presents is that those efforts are limited in a very narrow band, thereby preventing any meaningful change in the formula.   this limitation ultimately breeds apathy, distrust & rebellion, thereby creating the exact same dynamic that existed at the time of the DofI.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:18 | 2852829 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Lots of the Constitution is "intentionally vague."  That's because those were irresolvable points of dissent AT THE TIME of its drafting.

The Founding Fathers didn't agree with each other on a lot of important shit.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:51 | 2853145 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

all the more reason to draft the clause that focused on revisions with clear intent so that the document could be revised with noble purpose if and when circumstances allowed.

instead they shoved a highly flawed document down everyone's throats and started a relentless propaganda campaign to win everyone over with their high-falutin legalese.

sound familiar?

p.s. it was only because of the NY Ratification Delegation (that met after the Con was officially "ratified") that there is even a Bill of Rights.  (edit: and VA too as urbanredneck notes)

"I confess this construction is not natural; but the ambiguity of the expression lays a good ground for a quarrel." - Patrick Henry

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:53 | 2853252 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Well, there IS an amendment process, but we're pretty much a hung jury on consensus about what government should be DOING in the first place.

My attitude, if you feel compelled to try to defend the notion of "national government," is that no law should ever be created unless a minimum of 50% of the citizens of the country support it.  Hell, you could set that level to 90%, if you wanted to be even more safe.  Point being: laws would only be passed with the CONSENT of the "governed."

Congress obviously can't be trusted to represent anyone else's interests effectively, so hampering them is the best idea I've ever come up with. 

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:28 | 2853492 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

agreed, 90% sounds good to me.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 19:09 | 2853892 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

another agreement, 90% would indeed be a sea change.

Thu, 10/04/2012 - 04:43 | 2855072 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The Federalists' feared achilles heal does exist.   The existing amendment process (Article 5) could actually be used.  The traditional method begins w/ 2/3 of the Federal Congress voting for an amendment, but if one were to propose an Anti-Federalist Constitutional Convention (amendment) which returns the power of the purse (and control of the banks) to the States, then it is an easier sell to 2/3 of the STATE LEGISLATURES to call for a new Constitutional Convention.

All politicians are greedy, so appeal to the greed of several thousand State legislators over the greed of 535 Federal legislators, and in the process move the power closer to the People from whom the consent of the governed is derived.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:36 | 2853537 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

No Treason No. VI: The Constitution of No Authority -

Lysander Spooner 1870

"So it was with those who originally adopted the Constitution. Whatever may have been their personal intentions, the legal meaning of their language, so far as their "posterity" was concerned, simply was, that their hopes and motives, in entering into the agreement, were that it might prove useful and acceptable to their posterity; that it might promote their union, safety, tranquility, and welfare; and that it might tend "to secure to them the blessings of liberty." The language does not assert nor at all imply, any right, power, or disposition, on the part of the original parties to the agreement, to compel their "posterity" to live under it. If they had intended to bind their posterity to live under it, they should have said that their object was, not "to secure to them the blessings of liberty," but to make slaves of them; for if their "posterity" are bound to live under it, they are nothing less than the slaves of their foolish, tyrannical, and dead grandfathers."


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:48 | 2852716 vato poco
vato poco's picture

Horseshit, CD. Stop your whining about the Founding Fathers and focus on the *real* initial causes of the undermining of the Constitution: John Marshall and Dishonest Abe Lincoln. Remove those 2 assholes from the picture, and it's quite possible the country could still be (close to) what it was intended to be.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:06 | 2852779 fuu
fuu's picture

The Sedition Act of 1798 always struck me as showing the true colors of some of the founding fathers.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:30 | 2852882 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Do as I say......not as I do.

I must have been born a rabble rouser because I repeatedly got in big trouble in school when I brought up the Sedition Act while studying American history. The teacher was in love with the myth of America and would stand for no dissent. I was sent home several times for being uncooperative and disrespectful.

<If you don't swallow eat your programming meat you can't have your credit card pudding.>

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:34 | 2852895 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I'm sure any sort of the kind of critical thinking you displayed in your classes would these days be grounds for letter agencies to come take you away... even though you're a kid. Imagine all the 5th - 12th graders right now, in history classes around the country, having the exact opposite of the truth being drilled into their heads. Whoo, we're #1. We're #1!

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:07 | 2853268 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Get back or there will be no desert .. AND .. you'll get sent to NBC!!!

Still having fun poking that new math I see...

Cheers Cog

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:14 | 2852800 outofhere
outofhere's picture

I hear you Cog.  Most not "ALL" were freemasons.   (See images for George Washington the Freemason)

The Constitution was an experiment in creating an order for the New World (NWO). 

When ole Ben Franklin was asked what they wrought from the Constitutional Convention he replied "a Republic, if you can keep it".

If the American people were only more vigilant, the NWO would be a Sovereign Republic known as The United States of America.  Alas, this has not been the case as most are to busy trying to survive to pay attention to those in which  they put their trust .

Well the elite along with their banker buddies have perverted the very principles and liberties that were guaranteed by said document using such clauses as Article 1, Section 17 and 18 and Article 6, Section 2 which just happens to be 66 words in length.  Now some will argue that there are only 64 words in said Art. 6, Sec. 2 but "notwithstanding" is the conjoining of three separate and independent words.  This Article is what incorporated the United Nations Charter into the law of the land in 1945.

The rest is history!

As you so accurately stated...

"the very document which supposedly freed us is being used to enslave us."

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:13 | 2853036 JR
JR's picture

@ The Constitution was an experiment in creating an order for the New World (NWO). 

An experiment? So, that Christmas night on the banks of the Delaware, General Washington says to himself. Well, this war is worth a shot to see if an independent nation might work. If so, here may be a way to protect my property. Let’s just see what happens.

No! Experiment implies that the Founders weren’t really sure of what they were about -- and that was to fight to the death for liberty. You miss the passion of these people.

America’s founding was not an experiment. It was an “all or nothing.” It was their lives on the line for something great. They were not in a game of chance for some kind of NWO. And frankly, the discussion of deisms, Masonic Orders, and rich men protecting their property is nothing short of libelous, full-throated treason against men of honor who fought not for an experiment but for liberty for mankind. They knew what they wanted: and that was the right to regulate their own affairs so that they might assure the greatest good to the greatest number. They wanted a voice in their own government.

No group of men who’ve since walked our halls of government has never equaled this group: the coming together of these particular men at this particular point in mankind's history was a God-given miracle. And the fruit subsequently wrought was so miraculous that it has taken the Federal Reserve System 100 years to destroy it.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:16 | 2853064 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

And frankly, the discussion of deisms, Masonic Orders, and rich men protecting their property is nothing short of libelous, full-throated treason against men of honor who fought not for an experiment but for liberty for mankind.


Absolutely. And the 'american' way is to declare those who were enslaved sub humans or non humans, just for the narcissistic pleasure of seeing the 'american' FF for people they were not.
A cheap price to pay when you are an 'american'...

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:23 | 2853102 akak
akak's picture

AnAnonymous, do you know why you are such an extreme douchbag? It is because you do NOTHING but make sweeping, simplistic and bigoted assertions with utterly no facts, no arguments, and no logic behind any of them. Just repeating the same tired claims endlessly does not make them true.

Nor do you ever try to engage in any form of honest debate here --- you just monotonously dump your blanket anti-American accusations and generalizations in this forum and then run away like the anti-intellectual coward and troll that you are. And the few times that you do ever respond to other posters, we get nothing from you but circular arguments, evasion and diversion, with NEVER any attempt to either defend your blind assertions and accusations or to logically challenge other posters' condemnations or refutations of those same naked assertions. Clearly, you are here for no reason at all other than to spread your sick and obsessive anti-American hatred.

You idiotically attempt to blame Americans for every single thing wrong in the world today, while never acknowledging the role that your own consumption-mad nation of China, for example, plays in the madness that is the economic and political world of today. No, according to you, EVERYTHING that is bad in the world can be laid at the feet of the citizens (each and every one of them) of only one nation in the world, the USA --- never our sociopathic leaders in Washington, never our financial overlords, but ALL of us collectively. That kind of irrational thinking is known as prejudice and bigotry, and is your (only) stock in trade.

There are plenty of posters here, most of them in fact (myself included) who are perfectly willing to condemn our psychopathic leaders in Washington, our hopelessly corrupt political system, and many perverted aspects of our US society and "culture" (such as it is). But you are not content with limiting yourself to such logic --- no, according to you, EVERY American alive today, or who has every lived, is responsible for ALL the sins of the world. That is collectivism in its most perverse, extreme and idiotic form.

You are dishonest, irrational, hate-filled and close-minded, and that is why no other sincere poster here ever agrees with you or upvotes your ridiculously bigoted and nonsensical comments. You are a contemptible piece of human filth --- and that is not an assertion, but a statement of fact.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:32 | 2853157 pods
pods's picture

That's gonna leave a mark!

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:36 | 2853181 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Same stuff as usual. Nothing new. But, hey, no surprise, as US citizen nature is eternal.

So same song:

answer is made, but 'americans' can not accept the answer so they claim no answer was made.

It is no sweeping generalization to recall that the normal procedure for 'americans' to deal with their love for freedom while keeping slaves is to tell that slaves were sub or non humans. It is what happened.

'Americanism' brings a dilution of responsibility:

as stated by 'americanism', a governing body governs through the consent of the governed.

It is decentralization of authority and exercize of authority.

The authority lies with the People (hence the middle class) while the decisions are enacted by the political class.

'Americans' have been exploiting this feature since day one. No one is no longer responsible of anything.

Of course, you will find on this site many 'americans' ready to blame their political servants. This is part of the 'american' game and this is what 'americans' do.

It is all about keeping hands clean. The servants (aka the political class) have to guess the desires of the king class in order to stay in office. But they have also to endure the blame for policies that are dodgy.

Example: 'americans' want wars and the opportunities associated with them. But they do not want to be the ones deciding the wars. They want the wars and its benefits and being able to claim they do not want the wars.

'Americanism' provides that: the middle class want the wars, sometimes say it, but wont decide over it. Their servants into office decide the wars. Which allows the 'american' middle class to claim that they did not want the war.

Duplicity is an inherent part of the US citizen nature.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:41 | 2853200 akak
akak's picture

And I rest my case.


No arguments, no logic, no rational progression of thought from you, no, never.  Just more sweeping, bigoted assertions --- "Americans are all evil, they are responsible for all the sins of the world, blah blah blah". 

You are either retarded or insane.  Whichever is the case, you truly suck.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:11 | 2853357 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Well done and great timing!  H/T

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:39 | 2853548 akak
akak's picture

I just wonder how many sockpuppets AnMonotonous has at his disposal in order to downvote my posts in this thread.  Because clearly, nobody in their right mind could possibly agree with such a vile and bigoted troll.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:37 | 2853539 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

+quod erat demonstrandum

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:40 | 2853555 akak
akak's picture


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 19:52 | 2853969 outofhere
outofhere's picture

AnAnonymous, when your posts begin to make sense I will vote you up or down accordingly but you are as fickle as a pickle soooo...

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:06 | 2853332 323
323's picture

Well said.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:15 | 2853396 outofhere
outofhere's picture

Plus 100 akak.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:32 | 2853510 outofhere
outofhere's picture

My comment went right over AA's head when he Convicted me of treason.  "Treason" sir.  I think not.  I have heard the bullets zing by my ears in Nam fighting a war that the founders would have condemned!!!

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:13 | 2853375 outofhere
outofhere's picture

I agree with your postulation JR.  What they fought for so valiantly was freedom from the crown by and for the Declaration of Independence!  But the organizing of the Articles of Confederation into the Constitution of the united States of America was an Experiment in Liberty.  This brought about the only free nation that has ever existed in the history of the world.

It is STILL an experiment.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:52 | 2853623 JR
JR's picture

Okay, we can agree, the establishment of liberty is a work in progress. Thanks. :-)

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 18:14 | 2853717 outofhere
outofhere's picture

That work has been in progress for 225 years.  WE need to pay more attention to what the PTB are drafting for themselves.  Time to stop the madness!  Wish I could tell you how.


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 18:26 | 2853757 outofhere
outofhere's picture

Please don't misunderstand me JR when using the term NWO.  This is the New World to those that came here 400 years ago.  It was even depicted as the "New World" on the maps of the day.  The founders with all their failings, yes they were only human so they had failings, tried to establish a New Order for the WORLD.  I am in no way saying they were trying to incorporate the States of America into a totalitarian socialist regime but quite the opposite.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:53 | 2853628 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Bless you JR, a rational thought scattered among the noise and static of the perpetually distracted.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:14 | 2853040 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

nice work connecting the dots back to a beginning (of a cycle within a cycle within. . .)

not a true beginning, but a planned continuation of another idea, etc.

look for clues in the Men involved.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 18:08 | 2853277 outofhere
outofhere's picture

Have had lots of help CA.  Could not have done it without the help of Patriots like William "Bill" Cooper who payed the ultimate price for his beliefs.  Part of his creed was "I believe that any man (or woman) without principles that he (or she) is ready and willing to die for at any given moment is already dead and is of no use or consequence whatsoever".

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:09 | 2853027 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

It's certainly not all the founding fathers.

But the founding fathers drafted far more than one blueprint for the State.  And they left a treasure trove of supplementary and background materials, most of which of have been disregarded in favor of one of their worst collective achievements.  The road to hell was paved when the original debates were resolved in favor of the Federalists and the growth of Leviathan.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:20 | 2853436 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

The philosophical debate was superceded by the practical failings of the articles of confederation.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:23 | 2853461 akak
akak's picture

"Failings" for whom?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:15 | 2853390 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

"The constitution is just a piece of paper" was probably the wisest sentence attributed to GWB while he was in office. The motives of the founding fathers were to gain power but in the process they also "one upped" Britain, and actually codified the principles of governance by consent, imbue the government with accoutability by using the system of checks and balances etc etc.

As soon as the constitution was written however is was violated: the purchase of Louisiana, the self annointed job of the interpretation of the constitution by the supreme court and of course many other instances. But the constitution represented the boldest step towards the principles of self-governance.

Like all principles it is not the law of nature but instead a law people imposed on themselves; it is corruptable. But until we find something else, it's the best we have ever seen.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:52 | 2853626 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

GWB just read Lysander Spooner:

"Inasmuch as the Constitution was never signed, nor agreed to, by anybody, as a contract, and therefore never bound anybody, and is now binding upon nobody; and is, moreover, such an one as no people can ever hereafter be expected to consent to, except as they may be forced to do so at the point of the bayonet, it is perhaps of no importance what its true legal meaning, as a contract, is. Nevertheless, the writer thinks it proper to say that, in his opinion, the Constitution is no such instrument as it has generally been assumed to be; but that by false interpretations, and naked usurpations, the government has been made in practice a very widely, and almost wholly, different thing from what the Constitution itself purports to authorize. He has heretofore written much, and could write much more, to prove that such is the truth. But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain--that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."


But he never told you this part:

"If, then, nobody is individually responsible for the acts of Congress, the members of Congress are nobody's agents. And if they are nobody's agents, they are themselves individually responsible for their own acts, and for the acts of all whom they employ. And the authority they are exercising is simply their own individual authority; and, by the law of nature--the highest of all laws--anybody injured by their acts, anybody who is deprived by them of his property or his liberty, has the same right to hold them individually responsible, that he has to hold any other trespasser individually responsible. He has the same right to resist them, and their agents, that he has to resist any other trespassers."


And of course a dirtbag Skully Bonesman would never tell the public this:

"But even these pretended agents do not themselves know who their pretended principals are. These latter act in secret; for acting by secret ballot is acting in secret as much as if they were to meet in secret conclave in the darkness of the night. And they are personally as much unknown to the agents they select, as they are to others. No pretended agent therefore can ever know by whose ballots he is selected, or consequently who his real principals are. Not knowing who his principals are, he has no right to say that he has any. He can, at most, say only that he is the agent of a secret band of robbers and murderers, who are bound by that faith which prevails among confederates in crime, to stand by him, if his acts, done in their name, shall be resisted.

Men honestly engaged in attempting to establish justice in the world, have no occasion thus to act in secret; or to appoint agents to do acts for which they (the principals) are not willing to be responsible.

The secret ballot makes a secret government; and a secret government is a secret band of robbers and murderers. Open despotism is better than this. The single despot stands out in the face of all men, and says: I am the State: My will is law: I am your master: I take the responsibility of my acts: The only arbiter I acknowledge is the sword: If any one denies my right, let him try conclusions with me.

But a secret government is little less than a government of assassins. Under it, a man knows not who his tyrants are, until they have struck, and perhaps not then. He may guess, beforehand, as to some of his immediate neighbors. But he really knows nothing. The man to whom he would most naturally fly for protection, may prove an enemy, when the time of trial comes.

This is the kind of government we have; and it is the only one we are likely to have, until men are ready to say: We will consent to no Constitution, except such an one as we are neither ashamed nor afraid to sign; and we will authorize no government to do anything in our name which we are not willing to be personally responsible for."




Wed, 10/03/2012 - 18:25 | 2853755 Milestones
Milestones's picture

C.D.-- Charles Beard's book "An Economic Interpetation of the Untied States Constitution " circa 1917 backs up mucdh of your argument.


Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:47 | 2852427 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

well, if we had kept the vote restricted to land-owning males like they intended it would have saved us from abominations like Wilson, FDR, and LBJ, most likely

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:54 | 2852460 Marco
Marco's picture

You wouldn't have had to devolve into top down feudalism either, you would have had it from the start ...

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:10 | 2852546 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

maybe Lincoln too...

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:47 | 2852714 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Yeah, heaven forbid anyone but the rich have any say into how a government should be run.

Feudalism is very stable. 

It's no good for 99% of the people, but fuck 'em if they're not rich enough to own an estate or buy a title.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:23 | 2852789 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

OK how about if they extended voting rights to "land-owning or tax paying males" and anyone else that can pass a 25 question multiple choice test on the Constitition, US government and US and world history... is that still "Feudal"?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 15:29 | 2852874 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Changing the system which selects the oligarchy is pointless, in my view, but you should have fun with whatever ideas you want to dream up.

Keep in mind: there are many millions of people who want to take YOUR right to vote away too. 

The task is to come up with some kind of idea that demonstrates why YOU should be permitted to vote but THEY should not.  Good luck.

The peasants can always just eat your children if they don't like your solution.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 16:32 | 2853158 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

lol I gave up on voting a LONG time ago... but thanks for YOUR concern for MY voting rights... the point was about the founding fathers, if i"m not mistaken, and extending sufferage to everyone who can fog up a mirror has not worked out so well for the good ol' USA... what is your solution blunderdog?

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 17:05 | 2853319 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

There IS NO "solution." 

That's what I've always said.  We struggle along, and from time to time and place to place, some tiny incremental progress may be made through the expenditure of TREMENDOUS EFFORT of HUGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE.

No matter how I look at it, I believe that life in the USA TODAY is far better than it was 100 years ago, and far better than life was in Turkey 1500 years ago, and far better than it was in India 4000 years ago.

But it wasn't like some smart guy just came up with an idea one day and everything got better.  Evolution is a long slow slog and requires constant readjustment.

I'm an anarchist.  Smash the state.  Eliminate arbitrary authority structures like national governments.  Of course there are relative winners and losers no matter what you do--my goals are pretty bad for the current "ruling class."

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 13:51 | 2852444 falak pema
falak pema's picture

you get lipstick on your colla for speaking without forked tongue; you must have hi cherokee cheek bones; like that Liz lady.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:07 | 2852495 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

You're getting junked a lot CD. I wonder how many of those junkers are aware that the bill of rights, our list of protections, was ratified four years after the constitution.

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:16 | 2852559 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I am being junked because I am threatening a cherished belief system. I struggle with my own conditioning on a daily basis so I'm not saying that I'm any different.

To say that the American miracle was/is quite possibly just another experiment in a new form of plantation living (just like communism and socialism was/is) is simply heresy. Just because we slaves enjoy a better standard of living than our ancestors doesn't mean we are not slaves.

It is nearly impossible to break our slave mentality because very few people truly want to be free. What we really want is freedom of choice, not freedom to create our own choices from scratch.

<Yes barkeep, another round of slavery for me and my friends.>

Wed, 10/03/2012 - 14:25 | 2852593 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Well in my view if a person isn't doing a daily examination of themselves and those beliefs in them, then they aren't growing. I see a lot of people on here who claim the have"woken up" but if they aren't willing to critically examine everything then they are still caught in th dream.

I agree whole heartedly on the slavery issue. I deal with that every day on a personal level. I have to ask myself..."I am a free man why am I not doing this ________________(fill in the blank)?


You must unlearn what you have learned.


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