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Did Turkey Just Declare War On Syria?
Just out from the WSJ:
- Turkey's parliament has approved a bill authorizing the military to conduct cross-border operations in Syria, a day after a deadly shelling from Syrian territory killed five civilians
So, just how is this different to war? And how does NATO, and specifically Article 5 feel about this? What about Russia and China?
More from the WSJ:
Turkey's parliament approved a measure proposed by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, giving the government broad powers to send soldiers into "foreign countries" after Turkish armed forces and Syria traded fire on Wednesday and Thursday.
The measure is valid for one year and allows Mr. Erdogan to deploy troops into Syria without consulting with the national assembly in Ankara. The measure was opposed by the main opposition Republican People's Party, which dubbed it a "war bill."
Opponents argue that the rules of engagement adopted after Syria downed a Turkish reconnaissance jet in June provide a broad enough mandate to thwart threats from President Bashar al-Assad's regime, which has been battling an uprising that started in March 2011 and is supported by Turkey.
"The negative impacts of the ongoing crisis in Syria on our national security is visible in an increasing fashion," Mr. Erdogan said in the bill he submitted to parliament. "The aggressive actions targeting our national lands are at the threshold of armed attacks.... For that reason, it has become necessary to take precaution to act in a timely and quick manner against additional risks and threats facing our country."
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War, uh, what it is a good for?
Absolutely nuttin
say it again.
Short archdukes, long misery. This shit disgusts me
I am Chumbawamba.
"Parliamentary approval"? For military operations?
What a bunch of quaint-assed 19th-century buffoons -- didn't they get the memo from John Yoo? All that separation-of-power checks-on-the-executive crap went out with [9/11 | Y2K | Jimmy Carter | Woodstock | Pearl Harbor].
Erdogan better show some sack and start talking "Unitary Executive," or he'll have all kinds of useless whining to deal with.
"Without the National Assembly." Sounds like USA (Israel) advised/strong armed this false flag. Obviously the Turkish people don't want war. But the few fuckers that profit off of it will be elated.
I realize most of you don't know this, because you weren't taught it in the government schools, but Germany started WWII by dressing up German soldiers in Polish uniforms and having them attack a German border station. Germany invaded "the aggressor" Poland soon thereafter.
Governments have been using false flags to start wars for thousands of years. There's nothig sjurprising or new about it. How hard would it be for any small group of assholes, working for whomever, to set up a couple a Katyushas on the Syrian side and launch them into Turkey?
This is so transparently stupid it's mind-boggling.
War is a racket
~Gen S. Butler
The fog of war is now more of a "leakage" of war
This has been a long-time coming and well planned out by Russia and allies in pursuit of the West's defeat:
http://thespiritoftruth.blogspot.com/2011/08/turkey-threatens-syria-with-war.html
But you are welcome to continue to "make believe" differently. The Kremlin greatly appreciates your cooperation.
where Fibonacci meets the scriptures and all is made clear!
The scholastic medieval world always dreamt of making Aristotle talk to Maker above; physics and metaphysics made simple as walking on water!
Looks like this party is going to get started and no one even had to shoot at the USS Maddox.
No. But Romney blew Obama out of the water in the debate last night. --- Incumbants win in wartime.
Send in the Maine and Lusitania.
As disinfo for the End Timers... this is pretty piss poor.
Bad Hasbara Troll!!
"working for whomever" : an essential point. the world is being pushed into picking sides. if one wishes not to fall into the trap, then "whomever" is irrelevant.
The jew supremacists in Britain and France started WWII by convincing the nitwits running Poland not to allow Germany to build a highway and railroad connecting Prussia to East Prussia or to return the 97% German city of Danzig. The attack you speak of was a minor tactic used when the war had essentially already started.
lol, WW2 a result of the Reich's passion for building autobahns!
You should see Leni's "Triumph of the will"...very poetic and a true ideological road map of things to come.
Before Danzig zig-zagging the Reich did obtain Sudetenland Czecho saying : "this is our ONLY claim to fatherland"...at Munich 1938.
"...the Reich did obtain Sudetenland Czecho saying : "this is our ONLY claim to fatherland"...at Munich 1938."
Yes, but the situation worsened for the Germans living in the Polish Corridor. The Poles weren't exactly the innocent goody two shoes that the jew supremacist liars want you to believe.
Scroll to about the 7:00 mark of this short clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSJfjM0BfD0&feature=relmfu
Oh yes, the POLISH were the aggressors against peaceful Nazi Germany.
And why were all those Germans in "East Prussia" in the first place? Oh, that's right --- because the Germans invaded the Baltic homeland of the original, real Prussians and WIPED THEM OUT through intentional genocide (the first such incident in European history), while appropriating their homeland and their very name.
Fuck you and your vile revisionist bullshit.
I link to evidence to back my views, all you can do is foam at the mouth and call names.
Your 'evidence" is specious and insulting to anyone with an IQ above 50, and as the historical events surrounding the Nazi aggression against Poland are well-known and beyond rational dispute, I call you a malicious liar and a Nazi apologist. You might as well try to convince me that the sky is yellow and grass is purple.
The quasi-fascist ruling cabal of Poland in the 1930s were no saints, and I do not defend them, but to accuse the POLES of aggression against Nazi Germany is like blaming the rape victim for being raped.
Damn you and your lies.
More foaming at the mouth and name calling with nothiing to support your views other then that they are "well-known".
Well, I'm not sure why you feel so certain that the orthodox narrative about the Nazi false flag is definitely what happened. Now, I'm sure if you do some googling, you'll see that some legit historians {quite apart from any 'questionable'} sources do suggest that Poles and/or Jews and/or Bolsheviks were responsible.
I don't claim that to be true - I wasn't there - but I think it legitimate to say there are some questions about it, and illegitimate to claim that what wikipedia says is gospel truth.
For example - take the history of the history of the Katyn Forest massacre. Blamed on the evil Germans, it was actually done by the Bolsheviks - and whether or not you want to hear it, the Bolsheviks were largely, and perhaps majority Jewish. But for many years, it became futher proof of just how evil the Germans were to a man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHlrNDQNlA
Strange how Britain and France declared war on Germany for invading what had been German land, but didn't declare war on the Soviets when the Soviets invade from the easy about 10 days later.
Also funny how the Allies - so concerned about freedom and all - let the Soviets grab Eastern Europe wich resulted in hundreds of thousands being rounded up and sent to... concentration camps where hundreds of thousands died - not to mention Soviet {Bolshevik} policies which directly and indirectly resulted in widespread famine.
The Bolsheviks also committed what is probably best deemed genocide in Ukraine... again, the West was strangely untroubled by that.
Question the answers.
now, now boys -
I think it important to note that basically "Operation Himmler" is known only from the testimony of one imprisoned Nazi who likely was motivated to lie. I think it best to keep an open mind.
While it seems very possible that the Germans did, in fact, engage in the false flag {and covetted their former eastern lands}, there is too much editing od 20th centruty history to simply reject evidence.
For example, the birth of the Jewish state was made possible by Jewish terrorism. Arabs rejected partition because Palestine was only about 9% Jewish in 1920, but they were going to be given the best farm and coastal land, and much more land than was proportionate.
Of course, you never hear about the Jewish terrorism and false flags in the MSM.
History is both written and suppressed by the 'victors.'
In the not too distant future, the Mossad involvement in history's greatest false flag, 9/11 - will be deemed to have been obvious at the time.
http://www.takeourworldback.com/
But right now, people still are well trained to dismiss even mountains of good circumstantial evidence, and means/motive/opportunity/cui bono.
This is changing swiftly, making an attack on internet freedom virtually certain.
LOL - the old Prussians were conquered by the Tuetonic Knights in the 12th century. And they were assimilated, not wiped out.
If you don't think 700 years of continuous residence is long enough to claim as a continuous "homeland" - you must not think Zionism has any legitimacy whatsoever.
Right?
Actually, the Old Prussians --- the original Prussians, a Baltic people related to the Latvians and Lithuanians, and who are now extinct --- were enslaved and systematically annihilated by the German invaders, whose racial arrogance, intolerance and militant aggression were all well-documented at the time of their invasions and incursions into formerly non-German Baltic territory, resulting in the multi-ethnic forces allied against them at the Battle of Grunwald in 1410, in which the Teutonic Knights (the spearhead of German conquest in the non-German Baltic lands) were defeated by a gigantic army led by Polish and Lithuanian forces. It is just too bad that the victors were unable to capitalize on their victory and push the Prussian usurpers (Teutonic Knights and German colonizers) out of the area for good.
Meh, I don't doubt there was a lot of mass murdering, but I live in america, pal - we committed genocide and broke all sorts of treaties and employed false flags against the natives far, far more recently than the Battle of Grunwald.
You feel me, though?
Yes, I do.
And I fully acknowledge that if one choses to go back into history far enough, one can find reason to castigate almost EVERY ethnic group for "wrongs" committed against another. I simply bristle when having the outrageously twisted, Nazi-apologizing revisionist garbage shoved in my face, as this RandallCabot has done. My point in bringing up the Old Prussian genocide and the Battle of Grunwald was that the aggressive, imperialistic history of the Germans is consistent over the last millenium and well-documented, unlike the spurious "aggression" of Poland, which was NEVER an expansionistic power in the German mold.
LOL You had to go back 800 years? Well then, let's go back 300 years to the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. I guess you skipped over them because their expansionist poiicies don't fit your simple-minded Hollywood jew supremacist view of history.
And you probably don't know, because you didn't see it on jew supremacist TV or in a Hollywood movie, but the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth joined the Germans to defeat the Turks in the Battle of Vienna and to drive the Turks out of Europe!!!
Actually, I am well aware of the historic victory of the allied Christian forces, led by Polish king Jan Sobieski (and whose plurality consisted of Polish cavalry and infantry), over the Turks in the Battle of Vienna in 1683. It is also interesting to note that at that time, and to this day, the Austrians refused to acknowledge the Polish contribution to the success of the battle, raising statues of their (absent, having fled the city) Emperor Leopold instead.
As for trying to equate the foreign and domestic policies of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with those of (Germanized) Prussia, or Bradenburg, or any other of the imperialistic, expansionistic, militarily aggressive German states, well, good luck with that, neo-Nazi.
LOL, now you're aware of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Then why did you skip over it and go back 500 more years in history when you could have watched the video I posted from 1939 events that proves you don't have a clue of what you're talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSJfjM0BfD0&feature=relmfu
Now? When I did state or imply that I was not aware of it?
And instead of just posting a link, which tells me NOTHING, do you have some point to actually make, neo-Nazi? If so, why don't you make it. All I learned from your link was five minutes of straightforward and commonly-acknowledged history, and ten minutes of ridiculous pro-Nazi, anti-Polish propaganda of the most extremely distorted and perverted kind.
Face it loser, the idiots running Poland are to blame for the war becuase they were too stupid to know they were being set up by the jew supremacists in Britain and France so they were desrtroyed by the Germans while their "allies" did nothing to help them and then they turned over to the Russians after the war.
Yep, it's all the fault of the JOOOZZZZ!
Now I fully understand where you are coming from with your wild and disingenuous historical revisionism and your pro-Nazi sentiments.
You've very obviously proved that you're too stupid to understand anything.
http://archive.org/details/TriumphOfTheWillgermanTriumphDesWillens
The film
interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw2FhXZ9tiw&feature=related
this guy doesn't strike me as either nuts or racist, but I still don't buy most of the "revisionism" I've seen as to death camps. Friend of my dad was actually a hangman at nuremburg who saw the camps at the end of the war and said, having seen them, he had no problem at all hanging the nazis. I have no reason to think he was lying about what he saw - camps where mostly Jews were emaciated and had been worked to death for sure.
All the so-called "death camps" were in the Soviet zone so your father's friend is full of shit.
Dachau, inter alia, was liberated by American soldiers.
Do you think that just because there's a lot of B.S. in the history books, those revising it are not about as likely to lie, or cherry pick evidence?
I want you to know, too, that if you had spoken that comment in my presence, I would have broken your fucking jaw then curbed you, Randall.
I really mean that shit, too.
Dachau wasn't a "death camp", it was a concentration camp. It says so right at the top of your own link:
DACHAU CONCENTRATION CAMP - LIBERATION
Additional on 3rd Army:
Liberated Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp.
Liberated Buchenwald at 3:15 PM Apr 11, 1945.
Look it up.
YOU look up the difference between a "death camp" and a concentration camp!
Re Buchenwald: "The camp was built by the prisoners. During the entire summer of 1937, the SS forced the prisoners to use their "free time" to carry huge stones from the quarry to the camp. Those who had the misfortune to carry stones that were too small in the eyes of the SS, were immediately killed... The official goal of Buchenwald was the destruction of the prisoners by work. Thousands of prisoners were murdered in Buchenwald by work, torture, beatings, or simply starvation and lack of hygiene."
http://www.jewishgen.org/Forgottencamps/Camps/BuchenwaldEng.html
approximately 56,000 souls were murdered or died there. You fukin moron. ALL of the German camps were death camps!!!
Wikipedia on the so-called death camps. NOW WHO IS THE MORON???
"Most Holocaust historians identify six German Nazi extermination camps, all in occupied Poland; two of them, Chelmno and the Auschwitz II, in the western Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany (October 1939), four in the General Government area
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_camps"
My wife had an uncle who fought with Patton's 3rd Army. He was with them when they liberated a German Concentration camp.
hey the trojan horse came to turkey, then troy.
"dressing up German soldiers in Polish uniforms"
They dressed them up as plumbers?
It was very evil, they actually were from a concentration camp
U.S. version: Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution
We have always been at war with Eastasia ...
*Golf Clap* that was quite impressive feat, rounding 3 zh'ers to post something coherently in tandum.
You can go to a library, where things are nicely archived and organised according to topics.
Or maybe tandumb?
yall...
"Say it again."
What I will say is, "Shit, meet fan. And what the hell is that black swan flying overhead about?"
Good for the entitled class.
Not so much for the hoi polloi.
War is a racket.
Erdogan just wants killing right to Kurds in Syria !
Commodities
Touché.
Taking pot shots at Turks......those muzzies must be crazy.
We've all been waiting for a helpful pretext right? The incident that enables Turkey to get stuck in and of course, request the assistance of NATO.
So basically this may or may not escalate but what it will certainly do is enable NATO/Turkey to secure a large area across the border and from there who knows, no-fly zones across the entire country, Libya had major and deliberate mission creep, this is the beginning of the end for Assad, he'd be well-advised to come to terms if that option is still available.
The prospect of REAL chemical weapons is enough to be virtually assured that this regime will be directly engaged at some point, and once Syria is complete the Iranian regime will also be softened up a bit.
The helpful pretexts are progressing, the downing of plane, a dead general's questionable documents found by non-neutral press sources, military memorabilia falling outside the boundaries of the designated field of play. A whole damn World War might actually amount to nothing more than a helpful pretext in a much larger drama performed against a global backdrop.
Hells Bells, that sounds downright sinister.
Russia's foreign minister was out a day or so before the so called incident warning NATO not to look for incidents to enagage directly in the Syrian civil war. Well, I wonder if Russia knew this was coming. The timing of their warning just hours before a few mortar rounds land in a Turkish town?
Needless to say, NATO is chomping at the bit to get stuck into another liberation and istallation of their Muslim extremist allies. Sunni of course. Sunni extrimists GOOD, Shia extremists BAD!
Let's see where this story goes, if Russia and China cave on Syria, will they also cave on Iran. Question is, when do they tell NATO they have gone too far? That is when the real war starts!
Question is, when do they tell NATO they have gone too far?
When NATO has gone too far? No one has proven that these are actually false flag attacks, in fact the downing of the jet Syria has admitted to, and by apology has implicitly admitted to these two rounds of mortar attacks.
How many Turks have to be killed by Syrian government forces before you Trutheers admit that Turkey has the right to defend its own godamned civilians?
Yeah, weird that Syria, in the face of one of one of the most comprehensive black ops wars in recent history, is attempting to defend itself by shooting down potentially hostile jets in Syrian airspace, and shooting mortars at forward supply bases for the black ops war? Fucking terrorists, those Syrians.
Yeah, weird that Syria, in the face of one of one of the most comprehensive black ops wars in recent history, is attempting to defend itself by shooting down potentially hostile jets in Syrian airspace, and shooting mortars at forward supply bases for the black ops war?
What's to wonder about? The Syrians have admitted to the downing of the trainer jet, and to the two mortar round attacks. The only reason is why would they? Either they did it and have reasons to, or they did not and have reasons to claim responsibility. Whatever thoese reasons are should shed light on what Assad is trying to do. And I seeriously doubt that obstructing Turkeys prep for a war is the game plan. Little was accomplished at great risk; sounds like they are trying to provoke the Turks into crossing a trip wire. But whose tripwire?
Or you can just blame the shape changing lizard people and jettison actual fact and reason out the window. Your choice.
Former Arab league chief describe the war in Iraq as opening the gates to Hell. Could be worse in the case of Syria
It was my understanding that the Turkish Phantom was shot down after the Russians told the Syrians to do it. I also read somewhere that the pilot and RIO survived the shootdown and were killed later... can't verify any of that tho.
But wackiness in that incident doesn't only go to the Syrians. Turkey has squadrons of front line f-16s with ground attack packages. Why would they send an old Phantom for a mission that they wanted to be successfully completed? (To the best of my knowledge, the US last flew F4J Phantom IIs in combat in Vietnam in early 1973 - almost 40 years ago - then went to Iran's favorite airframe - the Tomcat.)
Maybe they are caving on Syria because they wouldn't cave on Iran.[?]
Nice timing of the Turkish invasion, btw, dovetailing with the Iranian currency explosion. Kind of hard to mobilize support when your supporters aren't getting their paychecks on time.
Kind of hard to mobilize support when your supporters aren't getting their paychecks on time.
No, actually a war tends to solidify support for a short time and why there is a long history of such diversions to get the people to look the other way. Problem is it often spins out of control and the leaders get far more than they bargained for.
I'm not sure NATO is as unified as all that. Turkey's got a Kurd problem that can only be exacerbated by a destabilized Syria.
It's also the case that Syria is no threat to NATO per se - so what we have is the US and Israel trying to push around and manipulate the minor NATO allies into a proxy war against Iran.
There's more than one motivation, but Likudnik Zionism is arguably the single greatest one. They want to Balkanize surrounding states, and apart from the petrodollar/central banking stuff, decapitating Iran is about freeing he IDF to carpet bomb Lebanon before invading and annexing most of it.
If I had one wish, it would be for military intelligence to begin rounding up all the Israeli dual citizens in government, and all the neocons - of whatever flavor - in all these think tanks, and fucking indefinitely detain them while we try to pry off the Zionist 5th column itching for war long enough to try some diplomacy as we slowly disengage from Western and Central Asia.
https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:CIA-MI6_Intel_Ops_and_Sabotage
"Sunni extrimists GOOD, Shia extremists BAD!"
So where do you put the House of Saud who, though they call themselves Sunni, actually are Wahabis which is a whole different thing?
May or may not escalate? This is the escalation and it will continue. I am just waiting for the chart that shows the likelyhood of war in Syria and overimpose it inversely on the value of the Iranian rial.
Get Zee Gold ! Bravo ! You are growing as a human bean ! Once you get over your fear of rejection .... posting is much more fun ! Big Brother Monedas
My understanding of the details is that it's the same thing they have for running air strikes in Northern Iraq.
Krugman just came.
A bit premature, would you not say?
Each time a window breaks, Krugman moans in ecstacy. Nice little visual to wake you up this morning.
While that was very funny and clever, the mental image evoked was far too psychologically damaging for anything other than an arrow down.
Cross border is not the same as invasion...oh hang on
Pure semitics,er,semantics.
Personally im very anti-semantics.
i'm not sure what you mean by that
We here in the US have sure had a lot of fighting the last 50 or 60 years without a declared war.
I believe "kinetic military action" is the approved terminology. Please go immediately to your nearest Peace Department location for reeducation.
Do not pass go, do not collect a Nobel Peace Prize
Peace bombings, peace cross-border actions.
Everything is fine, kumbaya.
WAR BITCHEZ!!
this is fucking insane. although Turkish deputy prime minister says Turkey's priority is to act in coordination with international institutions on Syria = "we'll do whatever they say"
he needs aproval and support he knows he cant win on there own. not that anyone will win anyway
Win on there own?
Apparently you don't know the NATO pact. An attack on one NATO member is considered an attack on all. Thus if Turkey is blatently attacked, other NATO members must assist Turkey.
You are partially right on your last statement. Someone will win. But it is always the general populace that loses.
Edit: I would also suggest that this is the black flag for eventual formal NATO involvement in Syria. Everyone is so concentrated on Israeli/Iran relations, but this may be the lead to that. Israel has problems with Syria just as much as Iran. Iran is further away and makes noise with the nuclear issue. Syria is much closer and is known to have serious chemical weapons, still considered to be weapons of mass destruction. Syria has also been known in the past to be involved in Lebannon and has supported terrorist groups in Lebannon to influence/overthrow the Lebannon government as well as its desire to get rid of Israel. This may be the precursor for an eventual confrontation with Iran who supports Syria, as well as the same terrorist groups Syria supports.
The biggest supporter of 'terrorist' groups in the MENA is the USA. The war on terror must continue, the sheeple need to be kept afraid and distracted.
People who cannot fathom the distinction between civilians bombing and killing other civilians by the hundreds versus a military action that causes the lowest colateral damage in the history of warfare, said people are fucking morons and/or leftwing nutjobs.
In the past the 'silent majority' were willing to go along with the whiney libtard pacifism, but not any more; not after 9/11 and I dont give a fuck what lies you tell about it being a false flag attack. It wasnt.
Yeah it was.
<\rebuttal>
People who can't see the similarity between humans bombing humans and uhhhhh humans bombing humans need to stop jabbering like Sam the Eagle on speed and take the red pill instead.
Dude, do you think there is ANY relevance to uniformed military doing something and civilians doing something?
For example, the Posse Comitatus Act was repealed to our loss and it prohibited the military from engaging in law enforcement activities with US civilians. No big deal to you I guess? Just people arresting people, who cares?
When we declare military action on a well deserved target like Iraq or Afghanistan, the people living near military targets should realize where they are and get the fuck out of the way. Still we do what we can to avoid hurting non-combatants, and do a lot less than we did in WW2 or most successful foreign invaders throughout history. I would happily compare our record for low colateral damage to what any others have done from Alexander the Great to Napoleon to General Eisenhower.
But when people dressed in civilian clothes hide bombs and walk into market places, blow themselves up and kill dozens of civilians, deliberately targeting them, that is murder, not warfare.
But you and your Truther butt-buddies are too fucking stupid, doped up and apathetic to bother to learn what the differences are and what they mean. You are a pathetic piece of shyte stinking up the fucking globe. Because of dumbfucks like you humanity is burdened with the Idi Amins, the Adolf Hitlers, the Joseph Stalins, etc. Then the rest of us have to spill OUR blood, lose limbs and lives of friends and family to correct the fucked up mess that ass hats like YOU created through negligence in the first place.
That is going to change, stupid shit. I godamn promise you.
Government trolls are exhaustingly boring.
Go back to trolling your ass on the street corner, fucktard.
Land routes:
Iran -> Iraq -> Syria -> Israel.
Iran -> Iraq -> Saudi Arabia -> Sinai -> Israel or
Iran -> Iraq -> Jordan -> Israel
Gosh... I guess winning and controlling Iraq wasn't so important afterall... it was/is just the KEY strategic turf for the whole damned ME!!! Stupid MFin politicians.
I don't necessarily agree with your assessment. Turkey really is the only secular (muslim) government left in the region, and their history is quite a lot different than their immediate neighbors to the south (Ottoman Empire). Turkey aspired to become more European thanks to Attaturk, and religion took a back seat for generations. Turkey's neighbors to the south were previously subjugated by the Ottoman Empire, and religion has flourished since then....to the point of proxy theocracy in some places. Turks tend to be more nationalistic than their neighbors as a result. Perhaps that has always been the case?
Very good comment and interesting Jethro. I appreciate your thought.
Erdogan is slowly changing the nature of the Turkish government. Not in a good way either. He's moving away from secularism.
It was my impression that the slide toward theocracy was being powered by the population... ie bottom up, not top down.
Next you be be saying you do not understand the difference between water-boarding and torture.
So, how is this different to war?
Tyler,
"Cross border operations" are much more civil than "war".
A very good piece on The Slog about this today;
http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/10/04/syrian-attack-on-turkey-am-i-the-...
DavidC
I wonder how many civilian casualties there have been due to JDAM or Hellcat missile attacks on "suspected" insurgents in the last week? Has anyone called the Hague?
It's not a war,it's a conflict! bring back any memories?
"Well come on all of you big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again,
Got himself in a terrible jam,
Way down yonder in Vietnam,
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lot of fun....."
-- Country Joe and the Fish
Just one of various "conflicts". Sucked then; sucks now.
The chorus is the best part!
and its 1,2,3 what are we fightin for?
don't ask me i don't give a dam, the next stop is Vietnam,
and its 5,6,7 open up the pearly gates. Well there aint no time to wonder why...WHOPEE we're all gunna die...
I bought my Easy Rider sound track album in the NavEx in PI during my first trip...
Yeah, my Dad was in one of those "conflicts." We had to wait for him to die before we could bring Chinese take out to the house.
Correction; it's now hostilities. As in you can be indefinitely detained without seeing a judge, or counsel, or even a record of your detention until 'hostilities' cease. But the war on terror is indefinite, and if TPTB have their way, eternal.
Unfortunately, you do seem to have a correct take on that subject.
'Never waste a good crisis', or apparently a good war for that matter.
Until people wake up and realize that they have placed a permanent ruling class in power over them, things will not improve. With the control the elites have over the media, I am coming to doubt that we will break this thing in the next decade or two.
It's different to war because they say it is.
Turkey has it's panties in a wad. That shit happens everyday on the American-Mexican border.
The wars in the ME have nothing compared to the body count down there.
Yes, indeed. The US media talks little of the collapse of the Mexican border region into full blown drug wars. Now it is said the US CIA has sided with a particular cartel and is aiding in the slaughter! I can believe it, there is nothing they won't get their hands in.
If the mexican american conflict elevated to mortars and shelling a lot of people would have their panties in a wad as you so eloquently put it.
Turkey has it's panties in a wad. That shit happens everyday on the American-Mexican border.
So, because our government is so corrupt and/or stupid it lets Mexican drug cartels raid across our border, the Turks should let the Syrians cross their border kill Turks whenever they want to?
You may think that killing a family of people is no big deal but at least the Turks are not so insane as to think the way you do.
When economies are fucked, you want to loot and plunder or just kill some people around to distract from real issues.
Turkey must be desperate, and I dont buy this "reviving the ottoman caliphate" bullshit. Turkey cannot do it, it doesnt has much support for that and attacking Syria would actually make it lose any shred of it, if it has some.
The world is changing fast.
http://dawn.com/2012/09/30/kayani-to-visit-russia-from-oct-3/
http://dawn.com/2012/10/04/pakistan-russia-renewing-ties-fm-khar/
The Turks dont wat to re-establish the Ottoman empire, as Kemal Attaturk was very nationalist and wanted a 'pure' Turkish state.
They might, however, join a Muslim federation of states that takes on the name of 'Caliphate' in some fashion. There seems to be a lot of support for that within the Umma.
I say you nailed it, bro and I live in Turkey. The state of the economy is far worse than that of Greece but you don't hear about it coz any protest is crushed instantly and the press is extremely censored.
I'm getting old, and don't remember things so good... but wasn't the original caliphate a PERSIAN thing? How did the Arabs get their hooks into it?
Islam started with Arabs. Mohamed was an Arab and united the Arab tribes. In part their rapid expansion was due to their ability to move quickly through the deserts and sustain themselves over long periods of time without logistical support. So it might seem like it was an Iranian thing as Iran fell so fast, but it was orignally Arab. The Turks had the Caliphate they took from the Mamelukes who took it from Baghdad.
The Sassanyds and Romans had no such capability and kept getting flanked whenever they moved out from their cities.
Pooty-poot ain't gonna like this.
cia's opium money from afgan, bought a turkey.
Turkey is an important transit point for heroin into Europe, and also weapons to the Balkan "freedom fighters."
And a hot bed of sex slavery. Especially the girls from former Soviet Union. Also a key trafficing point for sex slaves. Israel is a major customer. Sorry, but they are!
I love reading the transnational issues part of these, after two or three, they all look the same ... border disputes, transnational drug and money laundering center, etc.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html
BTW the CIA never seems to list human rights abuses, apparently, its a given.
I wonder how the USA ranks as far as "consumer" of prostitution and sex trade. If one were to read the back pages of say, the Village Voice, you might easily believe we are #1. Fuck yeah.
Don't ever apologize for telling the truth, Jack.
And when the sex slaves wear out Erdogan sells their organs.
War is war if you want it.
+1 for dredging up some Orwell. Better read that shit again while you still can, before it's made illegal to own or read.
Yes, Orwell mirrors too closely the path modern America is on. We were made to read it in school, back when everyone thought it was about communism. IT was NOT, it was about the western path to dictatorship.
I doubt it is on school reading lists now!
Actually, 1984 is just a stop along the way to Brave New World. And we're already closer to the latter than the former.
I have been told repeatedly that 1984 is no longer relevant, one said that it has been 'debunked'.
All four were professional teachers.
It WAS about communism... or those 'isms' closely related. The U.S. just wasn't there yet when we read it. Now... oh, yeah... we're in it deep.
the war on terror.
The representative body voted to approve military action? How quaint.
Dont forget this story from a short while ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/turkish-court-military-guilt...
The "Sledgehammer" conspiracy is alleged to have included plans to bomb historic mosques in Istanbul and trigger conflict with Greece to pave the way for an army takeover.
LULZ - Yeah.. they misunderstood Greece for Syria, seems like.
Tyler, if I ever meet you I'm going to walk up to you and punch you as hard as I can. Then when you punch me back I will ask you why YOU just started a fight?
The Turks declare war on Syria???? You have that very backwards.
Your homework assignment is to start a fight.... and then loose.
that's the job you gave to James B ! ...
A border incident is not war.
What Erdogan has done is ratcheted it up by going to parliament and getting a green light. This is a red flag in the face of Putin/China indirectly backing Assad/Iran regional axis.
Does he want a Sarajevo moment in that powder keg called ME?
I think they are rejoicing in Tel Aviv, and I don't know what ambition Erdo nurtures.
Yes, this could explain Obammy's jaded performance yesterday...keep eyes on that bouncing ball of Syria; now red hot.
We may be seeing a game changer as Iran is now under financial siege and Assad plays for his very existence, as his political demise, obtained by West, imminent. A dead Russian general and tempers rise in Moscow...the string is getting taught and they may have a tiger shark by its tail on their fishing rod in Syrian face-off.
"There is a part of me that longs for the Sultanate"
Syria is there for the taking. Damashq!
You know that Bajazet invited Michael angelo to come build a bridge to span the Bosphorus, linking Asia to Europe, in 1506?
Pity he refused, as he was involved in a love scandal and chased from Rome by Pope jULIUS II.
That was after he had made his David for your Avatar's successors!
A border incident is not war.
It *is* an act of war, though. The Turks have every right under international law to declare war and invade Syria.
I pray that they at most cross the border for about 30 miles and destroy military facilities, then withdraw, much like the Chicoms did to Vietname back in the '80s IIRC.
A much broadeer war is possible though. There is a certain desperate logic to Assad pushing Iran and Russia to either play their cards or fold in regards to giving him more full support. A cross border incursion of several divisions from Turkey might be viewed by the Russians and Iranians as justifiable pretext for providing more assistance to Syria. Iran might offer air cap for the Syrians against the Turkish air force (the Iranians would get spanked,methinks) and that might escalate even more.
Assad is not going to leave power peacefully and will threaten to cause more widespread war and destruction in order to cling to power.
Just a guess, but I do know that he is no fool, but is ruthless and cunning, far more cunning than the idiots that run our State department.
Pilot skills and all else being equal, a bunch of old Tomcats and some home grown do-it-yourself fighters couldn't hold a candle to turkey's f16s.
"Tyler, if I ever meet you I'm going to walk up to you and punch you as hard as I can."
To recreate what has happened between Syria and Turkey you'll need to get a Mossad or CIA agent to walk up to Tyler and hit him.
Bullshit.
Pull your head out of your ass, ignorant fucktard.
Syria has already admitted to the attacks, bot the airplane downing and the mortaring of Turkish civilians.
Stop being such a dumbshit.