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The Strangest Number In Today's Jobs Number

Tyler Durden's picture




 

While we already presented the explanation for the dramatic drop in today's unemployment report (almost entirely driven by the surge in part-time jobs for economic reasons, hardly a thing to be proud of as more and more full time jobs, especially those on Wall Street, are a thing of the past, while the transition to a part-time worker society has been documented extensively in the past here), there is another number that is by far the most perplexing in today's NFP dataset: that showing the employment of workers in the 20-24 year age category (both seasonally adjusted and unadjusted). See if you can spot the outlier in the chart below.

The chart above shows the sequential change in Non-Seasonally Adjusted jobs for the 20-24 year old cohort (aka those who normally are in student age) into the month of September going back to 1980, as represented by the Household Survey.

We have shown just 22 years of data, but believe us: in this data set, the September NSA jobs change has been negative every single year since the beginning of data collection. Except for 2012 (and considering the surge in temp-jobs for economic reasons, one can be certain that if indeed correct, all these young people obtained primarily part-time jobs, if any).

Ok, what about the Seasonal Adjusted: after all that Arima-X-12 data fudger should be put to good use. Well, here is the data:

Cutting to the chase: the September surge in Seasonally Adjusted jobs give to 20-24 year old is the biggest in decades. This is on top of the only positive NSA increase in 20-24 year old jobs in history.

How does one explain this stunning discovery? RBS's Richard Tang, who noted it first, proved one explanation:

While we cannot be certain, the back-to-back gains in September 2011 and September 2012 could reflect a decision by younger workers to remain in the workforce rather than pursue a higher education. Given how difficult it is to get a job in the current environment, more young workers may be choosing to hold on to the jobs they already have. In fact, this does seem to be the case during periods of weakness/recessions. The last time we had back-to-back September gains in employment in the 20-24 year old cohort even approaching what we have seen in September 2011 and 2012 was in the 2000-2001 period. Prior to that, it was in 1984-85. In any case, the unemployment rate for 20-24 year olds plummeted from 13.9% in August to 12.4% in September, the lowest reading since November 2008. The 1.5 percentage point drop in September matched the sixth-largest monthly drop going back to 1948.

A valient effort but one thing remains outstanding: the record amount of student loans outstanding, and defaults, which as we explained last Friday, is indicative of one thing: everyone is doing their best to avoid the labor market in this worst possible time for jobs and is hiding instead in the "safety" of a Federally funded college education. This explains not only the record amount of student loans outstanding, well over $1 trillion in total, and over $900 billion just Federally funded.

So somehow in September, in addition to all the other discrepancies in the labor report, we have one more to add: that of the Schrodinger Student: one who is both in college and piling up student loans on one hand, yet on the other hand entering the work force in the month of September, a time when historically every single month in recorded history has seen an exit from the labor force for the 20-24 year old cohort.

We'll leave this one for Jack Welch to figure out.

 

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Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:03 | 2860612 Jason T
Jason T's picture

When I was 21, I started in manufacturing, 22 was supervisor in training, 23 engineer in training.. 24 ..engineer.  

 

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:07 | 2860629 iDealMeat
iDealMeat's picture

I'm loving this new math..  I'm also moving from a "no vote" to an Obama voter..  Anything to accelerate the total reset..

 

Long popcorn..

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:10 | 2860636 Surly Bear
Surly Bear's picture

Surely Surly can explain it...work studies, bitchez!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:18 | 2860682 redpill
redpill's picture

They've already defaulted on their student loans, what do they need a part time job for?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:21 | 2860693 economics9698
economics9698's picture

1984 mother fuckers.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:43 | 2860783 TonyCoitus
TonyCoitus's picture

That was a great year.....for a Detroit Tiger fan!

 

Go Tigers!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:14 | 2860914 Badabing
Badabing's picture

So let’s say I got a part time job and can’t make ends meet.

So I go out and find another part time job to fill the void.

Does that now count as two people employed?

The statistics are as fake as my avatar!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:17 | 2860933 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

There are no jobs, there are only interventions.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 18:56 | 2861404 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

These new jobs for the 20 - 24 cohort are great!  You get to stand in line in front of the Apple store and get paid!  And you get to go door-to-door to talk to people about Obama.. and get paid!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:25 | 2861712 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Everyone is assuming something here that isn't in evidence. Who says the loans are going to 20-24 year olds? Mom and Dad were laid off. Mom went back to school hoping for a new career. Dad's on disability and Junior has a part time job to try to supplement their food stamps as they live in the home that they haven't made a mortgage payment on for three years. Now it makes sense. Green shoots all around and we should give the guy in the WH four more years to keep the shoots growing.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 22:24 | 2862002 mumbo_jumbo
mumbo_jumbo's picture

you might be onto something there, maybe all these 20-24 year old temp jobs ARE cause of the Obama reelection campaign?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 18:38 | 2861349 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Say you only get one job, but it's at Wal-Mart...

Seats filled are not important; dollars paid are.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:44 | 2860791 redpill
redpill's picture

And sorry to pick nits Tylers, but this is not part of the NFP data set, it's part of the Household data set from the Current Population Survey, which is a much thinner survey with much higher margin of error, which convneniently makes it much easier to fudge.  

And of course next month after everyone has already voted, these will be revised in line with expectations and nothing will be done about it.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:50 | 2860822 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

schrodinger totus simultaneously is and is not NBC

schrodinger-flation simultaneously raises and lowers prices

schrodinger dollar simultaneously is and is not a liability 

schrodinger metal simultaneously is and is not in vault

schrodinger msm simultaneously reports and overlooks events

just kidding (not) 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:17 | 2861126 Silver Bully
Silver Bully's picture

'They've already defaulted on their student loans, what do they need a part time job for?'

I believe Evelle said it best in Raising Arizona:

"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?"

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:30 | 2860722 Mercury
Mercury's picture

I moved over two years ago...

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:41 | 2860779 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

in with my parents

(fixed it for you)

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:51 | 2861053 derek_vineyard
derek_vineyard's picture

jimmy , we already knew that

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:11 | 2860910 seek
seek's picture

I've been quite stunned at how many of my previously unenlightened* (R)-leaning friends are doing the same, their vote relly coming down to who would drive things into the ground fastest.

 

* = they bought into the two-party paradigm, enlightenment being the realization the whole system is a scam.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:12 | 2860652 ceedub
ceedub's picture

As much as you want to think you're an engineer, you're not. Technician maybe, engineer no.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:30 | 2860721 hannah
hannah's picture

so ceedub...you are saying that you cant become an engineer in only one year...? LOL...a perfect example affirmative action in action.....! the gov just hands out peices of paper with 'degree' on them.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:52 | 2860805 centerline
centerline's picture

Actually, you legally can't call yourself an engineer in private sector work unless you have had at least 4 years as an engineer-in-training and passed written exam and other requirements to be licensed.  Anyone representiting themselves as an engineer otherwise can get into trouble.

There are some exceptions here and there - like Software Engineer.  But, it can be a real slippery slope when you get into areas that require licensing to sign drawings.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:01 | 2860883 akak
akak's picture

So, are you saying that, legally speaking, Ben Bernanke is not a Bullshit Transfer Engineer?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:14 | 2861119 Bohm Squad
Bohm Squad's picture

No, his credentials for that position are solid.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:32 | 2861160 Lore
Lore's picture

 

 

You see it everywhere. Another case in point: "REALTOR" is trademarked. You can't call yourself a "REALTOR" without a piece of paper, the implication being that you're not a competent seller of a house unless you have someone else's "licence." 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:14 | 2860921 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Correct. Good old boys club. For 25 years I performed all the engineering duties that the PEs did, even trained recent grads in skills specific to my duties, as they got payed more than me! Fuck it. I started my own company (I never graduated from high school) and I now hire an Engineer if I need the stamp, and keep the profits for myself. Something like 70% of companies are owned by non-degreed individuals. I have my own theories on why.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:42 | 2861021 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

People who own/run their own businesses TEND TO BE more independent-minded and don't do well in the "structured authority" environment of college. 

Basically, folks are born with a predisposition to be boss or worker, and if you're born to be a boss, you're not likely to want to sit in a classroom for 4 years. 

Conversely, folks who did well in school deal better with conflicting directives and the group-politics that are so common in the modern office environment than the "boss" types.

Intelligence and educability aren't significant factors, that's for sure.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:37 | 2861150 Lore
Lore's picture

That model doesn't fit my experience.

In small business AND large organizations, the vast majority are incapable of THINKING CREATIVELY.

Consider the number of highly educated people who don't have an original thought in their head. 

Standardization constrains flexibility and ingenuity. 

It's part of the reason why our system is breaking. Our elites want to stop nature. They strive to manipulate everything because evolution TERRIFIES them.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:55 | 2861231 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

I don't see any clear disagreement--I'm curious what I said which you think actually conflicts with this.  I agree with your view.

"Creativity" isn't usually what leads someone to want to start a business.  Most of the time, it's just folks who don't want to work for someone else. 

The *creative* enterpreneur is the exception, same as the creative employee.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:45 | 2861207 centerline
centerline's picture

I know alot of people who can outperform PE's all day long.  The license alone doesn't guarantee anything except some core knowlegde and good test taking skills.  Experience, common sense, drive, etc. are different things.

Not a good ol boys club though really.  Is a fight to not be turned into a commodity.  Too late for my area of expertise though.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:20 | 2860944 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

Sanatation Engineers probably do have 4 year degrees.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:33 | 2860738 Jason T
Jason T's picture

You're right.  Technical Service Engineer... 6 months of intense training on how we manufactured printed circuit boards.. but you never stopped learning.  Age 25 I quit... 2 years later company closed up for good. 

If those same 21 year old are going to college to learn how to manufacture circuit boards.. I wish them luck after they have both debt and little job prospects in that industry in the US.  

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:47 | 2860807 hannah
hannah's picture

jason there is a huge difference in meaning between a service 'engineer' and a bach if science in engineering. did you actual design chips...?  this is a perfect example of why this country fell off a cliff. would you let a surgeon with 1 years rapid training do open heart surgury on you....?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:43 | 2861026 Jason T
Jason T's picture

In the beginning, I should stand corrected.. was product support techician doing quotes and proposals.  2.5 years after that, I got the title of Tech Service Engineer.  I designed the process flow to manufacture the boards and basically took ownership of the boards yeilds and profitability.  Was a great job and I had a great opportunity for someone that didn't go to college but had half a brain to work at.

Country fell off a cliff cause we let our industrial base go to shit.    We don't make high volume circuit boards anymore.  We've got about 300 mom and pop shops left, that's it.  So 20 year olds don't have these kinds of companies to work at anymore, so they go to college, which has become so exspensive sadly.

I'm with you on offending the title of "Engineer" as I was no engineer in that respect.  

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 22:20 | 2861992 robobbob
robobbob's picture

negative

The fulfillment and climax of the American dream occurred during a time when ability trumpted all. A piece of paper was nice, but carried little weight in the face of experienced knowledge and a proven track record of real world success. OTJC was the standard path for most. Slowly but surely, the grizzled vets who knew through experience or intuition have been driven out and replaced by box checkers and ticket punchers. Occasionally those fresh from the halls of academia would have new perspectives, or be in the know on the latest advances, but by and large most have only been taught to conform to the path of advancement found in a centralized bureaucratic totalitarian environment, graded on a curve. Don't think critically. Don't think outside the box. Give the answer the professor/boss expects to hear. Always have a scapegoat or an out ready to blame someone else if things don't work out. Short term gain trumpts long term success. 

What was edisons major? what year did tesla graduate? Gates got a degree in what? The wright bros would be arrested today for what they did. Some people are incompetent and the public might need assurances that they are not dealing with idiots, but when the process is held in higher regard than ability or performance, that is the end of fairness. that is the goal of the central planners, a nice tidely classified structured world. sacriface results for the sake of process. the end is surely coming. That is why the country has fallen off a cliff.

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:54 | 2860841 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

I was sitting and cobbling together circuit boards at age of 12 in my father's sweatshop. Good times, as in fact he paid well for that. Also got a PC motherboard and promised to get the details if we wanted to make a cool PC. Great memories.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:49 | 2860817 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

I used to get techs who worked for me offering to forego a raise if they could get an engineer title

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:50 | 2860819 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

I used to get techs who worked for me offering to forego a raise if they could get an engineer title

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:41 | 2861113 Lore
Lore's picture

Accreditation is to engineering as fiat currency is to money.

The government subsidized Accreditation Industrial Complex (AIC) would prefer that you forget how much you can do yourself.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:54 | 2861228 Arnold
Arnold's picture

 Operating Engineer. Just show some skill and interest in Union activities.

I think that fixed it.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:16 | 2860667 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

They are counting Obama campaign workers as "new hires" even if they are volunteers on college campuses.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:50 | 2860824 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

campaign engineers?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:35 | 2861179 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Do they get an Obamaphone... ?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:18 | 2860676 Fluffybunny
Fluffybunny's picture

[Jaston T: When I was 21, I started in manufacturing, 22 was supervisor in training, 23 engineer in training.. 24 ..engineer.]

I got my first job when I was 9. Worked at a sheet metal factory. In two weeks, I was running the floor. Child labor laws are ruining this country.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:23 | 2860697 economics9698
economics9698's picture

lol.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:36 | 2860761 hannah
hannah's picture

thats nothing...i was a fetus when i got my first job creating MBRS for goldman sachs. i would sign the docs by sticking my little arm out the birth canal and signing away. finally i was born and made vp within a week....!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:49 | 2860815 KidHorn
KidHorn's picture

When my atoms where in a soon to go supernova star...

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:52 | 2860834 Temporis
Temporis's picture

Nice to meet you Mr. Blankfein.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:55 | 2860853 Strider52
Strider52's picture

I was born in a log cabin that I built myself.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:06 | 2860895 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

You didn't build that cabin, someone built it for you.  

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:40 | 2861185 akak
akak's picture

Al Gore invented the cabin.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:18 | 2860935 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

I was born a poor black child ...

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:34 | 2860993 SmokeThatHog
SmokeThatHog's picture

Chuck Norris would fuck up your cabin.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:30 | 2861731 Illusory logic
Illusory logic's picture

I'm sorry!  Did you make a comment?  Was focused on your avatar. ;-)

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:24 | 2860955 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

....in a former life I was an engineer....and then diesel replaced coal for my locomotive....

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:21 | 2860690 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

Today's data proves that everything is possible, statistically.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:53 | 2860838 hannah
hannah's picture

...actually everything is possible statistcally. just very low probabilities...

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:24 | 2860956 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Everything is possible is Chicago mobsters control the data.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:46 | 2861023 Doña K
Doña K's picture

Statistics: The Chicago cubs never lost a game that was played on a Thursday while it was drizzling on an even number year during the month of June. Undefeated?  

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:37 | 2860764 imbrbing
imbrbing's picture

all that while still in diapers, awesome

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:39 | 2860768 1eyedman
1eyedman's picture

what year was this please?      there was a point in time when 'training, or 'ojt' was viewed positively at the corporate level...

..now jobs go unfilled b/c biz cant find people who already know how to do a job, and have no training ability or willingness to get people up to speed.  

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:40 | 2861758 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

Wanted: delivery driver. Clean DMV, class C license, 2 years experience with iOS6.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:44 | 2861095 Lore
Lore's picture

 

 

@ Jason T

Weird how people vote you down.

They look unfavourably on someone who builds a career without feeding the Accreditation Industry?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:31 | 2861165 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Sanitation Engineer - and it took a whole year of training!!!!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:02 | 2860613 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Ok....OK!!! They are screwing with the numbers. We know this already. So why are we so focused on the numbers we know to be false?

<Misdirection only works if we actually look.>

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:16 | 2860659 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

This is my shocked look

 

 

- -

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Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:34 | 2860747 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Ah...  soon the numbers will be screwing them. So keep watching.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:07 | 2860903 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

In Soviet America statistics screw you!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:31 | 2860976 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Hm.. That's a worldwide thingamajerk. Trust me on this.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:53 | 2861224 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

You got any numbers to back that up?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 18:43 | 2861361 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

3, 7, and Pi

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:23 | 2860953 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

You are a voice of reason. No one is going to listen to you. They will keep debating the crap, because, I don't know, it's fun?

We thrill in the "I gotcha," when being enamored of the "I gotcha" is the gotcha.

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:45 | 2861037 seek
seek's picture

We're focused because it's a leading indicator of how fucked we are, and how much closer we are to the inflection point of maximum fucked-ness.

First they lie a little bit (wonky seasonal adjustments, etc) to make things look a little better than they really are -- slightly less negative. Then the adjustments grow in size. Now we're to the point where they're changing the sign of a decades-long data series.

Basically, we care because we can eyeball the standard deviation of the adjustment and use that as a VIX-like indicator. As we move into six-sigma territory you know things are getting really bad. Today's data is a bit more than 3 sigma, and my back-of-the-envelope calcs suggest there's about a 2% probability this is a natural deviation, e.g. it's really unlikely this isn't a doctored number. But as you noted, we already know this -- but that sigma value sure is interesting, ain't it?

The more bald-face the lie, the worse things are.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:04 | 2860615 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

These are Obama's campaign volunteers : Obamabots.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:09 | 2860633 A L I E N
A L I E N's picture

or just Obots for short

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:09 | 2860634 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Could be true.  Down in Sleaze Beach, Soros has hired half the black folk, to interview the other half about the joys and delights of owning an Obamaphone.

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:19 | 2860684 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

Obamaphones. Man, you nuts just don't quit, do you?

So I suppose my 72-year-old mother (who just lost her husband this past April after nearly 53 years of marriage, and herself almost died in the same month) and my fiance's 73-year-old mother (who suffered four strokes last year AND had surgery to repair a broken neck) both should be hung or shot for having a free phone paid for by we, the people. They're just leeching off of you and I, aren't they?

Why the nerve of those poor, old seniors!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:27 | 2860715 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

I'd like those of you who junked this reply to give reasons why you did so. Don't just hide behind the down arrow lke a pussy.

This is ZH Fight Club, after all. Give me your best shot, punks.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:45 | 2860774 ATM
ATM's picture

I junked you because government isn't a fucking charity.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:46 | 2860798 eatapeach
eatapeach's picture

You came out swinging, calling people nuts. I think the junking is due to your defense of government theft. Most posters here are probably charitable, but prefer it not be exacted by force.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:47 | 2860800 Jason T
Jason T's picture

I alrady got my ass handed to me junked wise...

I have a $12 go phone, I pay $25 every 90 days for paying 10 cents a minute.

My home phone is a skype number... it's $60 a year.

My internet is $40 a month..time warner.

I pay $54 a month for cell phone, home phone and high speed internet. That's $648 a year for all that.  

I don't know what exactly the Gov't is paying for phone wise.. but ugh.

By the Sweat of your brow you will eat your bread ... not by the sweat of someone elses brow.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:26 | 2861151 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

You forgot about all the "Universal Service" taxes that we are charged to pay for the phones for the SPONGES!!!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:49 | 2860810 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

(Tsar Pointless) regarding your mother's "right" to a subsidized Obamaphone .... since when is it the government's responsibility to provide phones?  Yeah, I know the parasites have gotten it through some welfare program.  This is not what the government should be doing.

If your mother wants a phone and she can't afford it, then it is your turn to step up to the plate and pay for it.

It is YOUR MOTHER .... you should PAY for the PHONE, and the MONTHLY BILL!  You and your siblings are the ones responsible for that.  GOT IT?  No one else, and certainly not the Government.  Sell your computer and buy your mom the phone. 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:50 | 2861052 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

   since when is it the government's responsibility to provide phones?

It all kinda got started back in the early 1900's, but you'd have to read some history if you really want to know what all happened.

Do your own homework, you lazy fuck.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:28 | 2861157 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

No - government should provide a home too - she needs a home right - and food too - we can't let her starve......

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:53 | 2860831 CommunityStandard
CommunityStandard's picture

If my mom couldn't afford a phone, I'd buy one for her.  That's what families do.  I wouldn't want anyone else paying for her things, nor should I be paying for anyone else's things.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:59 | 2860867 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

I junked, because government probably took 100 dollars in tax money, spent 20 on phone and 80 on "managing activity". So in fact you indirectly paid a lot more for her phone than if you would have bought it directly.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:53 | 2860842 IndicaTive
IndicaTive's picture

 

"This is ZH Fight Club, after all. Give me your best shot, punks.

Kind of a one-sided fight so far.

"30 seconds to respond, sir."

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:59 | 2860864 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

LOL ...

"Fuck that personal responsibility and I am my Mother's keeper shit ... I got mine, bitchez." - Tsar Pointless

At this point, the idiot has returned to his/her village.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:56 | 2860855 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" - Mark Twain

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:56 | 2860859 Temporis
Temporis's picture

I junked you because you smell of elderberries and aged goat cheese.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:05 | 2860891 LayPersonWatchin
LayPersonWatchin's picture

If the phone is so imortant, then you need to step up and buy your mother a phone.  God forbid, when the time comes, I will buy my mother a phone and I promise not to make you buy it.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:07 | 2860898 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

Your phony argument, supporting this phony government, and by design supporting this phony president with his phony media, speaks volumes to your incredible lack of ability to see through all the phony-baloney crap being served up daily as "Objective News and Information" baffles me that individuals-when given the facts- STILL run to ignorant conclusions!

You sir, are either extemely naive or... A PHONY!!!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:24 | 2860957 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

I junked you because your mama dresses you funny.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:35 | 2860958 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

I junked you because your mama wears combat boots.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:33 | 2860987 JoBob
JoBob's picture

@T. Pointless:  Because it's not "leeching off you and I";  it should be "you and me."

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:18 | 2861693 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Really, it's just leeching off of us.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:37 | 2860997 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Some wonderful comments here, which I didn't expect.  I'm only on my first glass of cabernet.

I think the reason the Obama phone gets so much attention is the almost perfect symbolism, something simple, a consumer item, which is none of the government's damn business, but makes a great bribe.

The greater crimes are the free housing, utilities, medical care, and even transportation the USSA gives to the self-designated poor, at the expense of everyone who does an honest day's work..., and yes it is a bribe, to vote for more socialism.

A modest proposal:  Welfare should be generous, easy to get, and involve minimum bureaucracy.  2 Caveats -

NO MORE than two years of welfare available in any five year period for the able bodied.

Anyone taking a welfare check forfeits the voting privilege for 5 years.    Or we could stay with the present system

VOTE DEMOCRAT - IT'S EASIER THAN WORKING!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:39 | 2861008 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

I did not junk you.

I do agree with the posters here that we need to change our mentality regarding who is responsible for what. It is a hard transition to cleanly make when our paychecks are all being garnished against our wills. It is easy to feel like you should "get some" when they are taking so much. 

There is one other thing I would like to point out to the posters who are hammering you:

1. I'd like to see how much money we saved if we stopped all the war bullshit.

2. I'd like to see how much we save and how things might improve if we stopped bailing out the real welfare queens like Jaimie and Lloyd. 

Entitlements are stupid when we don't have any money (we are in debt beyond any ability to pay it back). Like any household in this situation, you stop all the spending on stuff you don't need. I've been there and done that. What I am trying to say is in one sense these posters are correct, you need to change your headset. In another sense I see why your headset is screwy-- the whole thing is screwy and this entitlement, relative to the others (and military spending) seems easier to justify.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:54 | 2861063 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

 I think every ox must be  gored.  Government at all levels is massively larger than when I grew up.  That is just wrong on so many levels.  What worries me most, is how hard that is to do, even on a local level.  School districts and municipalities are some of the worst offenders. 

Whoever "wins" from now on, will face an angry, divided, and worried populace.  The politics of spending less are never fun.

GAWDHELPLUS.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:11 | 2861114 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

My son is in highschool, supposedly the flagship, optional program, college prep, blah, blah. They kept him in the auditorium for two periods a day at the start of school for almost a month because they could not figure out the schedules. He waited that long because a ton of kids had NO SCHEDULE. Those kids were in the auditorium all day long, for two weeks. Then they took care of the kids with 5 missing classes, then four, then three, you get the idea. They claim it was an "error." The truth is they don't have enough teachers. The things my son needs (calc or AP stat) they let go of those teachers last year. My son is always helping the teachers with their computers because they don't have any IT people. That is not all bad, but he wanted to form a student group to formalize it (there are a number of the kids doing this because it has to happen or the school would shut down) but they would not let them because of liability issues. Yet they are doing it any way. Daily, my son is solving problems for them. The other day he was helping a guy with his personal PC. My son has all kinds of passwords he should not. Talk about liability.

The place is a zoo and falling apart. The money they have, they are not spending well. I am glad he will be in college next year. If I had anticipated it would be this bad, I may have put him in college this year. 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:23 | 2861142 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

There has been an explosion in the number of education bureaucrats, and yet zero accountability.

I like the idea of privatizing the schools.  Give every kid a voucher, and let the parents choose where he should go.  Fuck the teachers'  unions and the kleptocrats.  I had one education course.  Anyone who has ever had one will tell you they are a sick joke.

Let anyone with a college degree who wants to teach, have a shot at it.  I love it.  It's not for everyone, but now we seem to have the worst of all possible worlds.  Who, in the private sector, could get away with that sort of happy horse shit?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:10 | 2861675 UnpatrioticHoarder
UnpatrioticHoarder's picture

Interesting story. Would like to read more from life in the real America

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:56 | 2861067 seek
seek's picture

I suspect, given that ZH is a bastion of lowercase-L libtertarianism, that most of the junkers that are hammering would agree that we shouldn't be spending money on wars or Jaimie and Lloyd. The strong response is, I think, due to the fact that the government is bribing people with $20 phones using our money, to get votes and stay in power so they can turn around and blow > $100B a month on the war and an even larger sum on banks and corporate welfare. People with the entitlement attitude are basically just telling the government what their price is to collectively work with them to screw the shrinking productive class in the country.

Many don't see the connection between the two, but I suspect the average junker in this thread does.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:05 | 2861086 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

So many distractions, so little time.  Yes, where are all the war-mongers the libs want so desperately to oppose?

Here's my bottom line.  For a society to survive, much less thrive, there have to be rewards for an honest day's work.

Now, there simply are not.  Look at all this part-time, catch as catch can, horse shit.  No one can have a life that way.

The young are simply better off becoming government drones or staying on welfare and working now and then, under the table.

That's no way to run a great nation, but it sure it a formula for a lost generation.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:26 | 2861147 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

I was trying a compassionate approach. I think a good number of the "entitlement types" are not intrinsically bad, they just have not deeply thought it through, because it seems so normal, because it is happening everywhere. It was a profound moment for me when I really got it that I had been mentally dependant on the government all my life. I didn't like owning that at all. I had to come to it that is wasn't my fault, I was socialized into it, and it is hard to see what is up when all the money and the programs just sort of slosh together. 

Once you see it, and you see what has happened because of the entitlement mentality, you cannot go back (unless you find a blue pill of some kind somewhere).

Peace, seek. I did not mean that the posters here did not object to the welfare drag queens and war. I just ask folks to see how hard this one is to see in the first place.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 18:20 | 2861285 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Well said.  This is the sort of discussion that has to go on everywhere, and yet the lame stream media is too busy hyping celebrities, personalities, and sports scores.  Good luck with your son.  We had to intervene twice to get better teachers for our eldest daughter.  After that we acquired a reputation for being "difficult parents", and the other two kids got great teachers.

Happy Trails.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 19:24 | 2861498 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Thoughtful post 'seek'.  I would also add that ZH has opened a window for those that wanted to understand both the past and also a running commentary post GFC.  When I think back I used to subscribe, in the late 80's - 90's, to the Friedman/monetarist argument -  even if I called myself a 'Libertarian'. Of course that philospohy was complete rubbish, as is self-evident, but that took time, reading and then I took the red pill after 2008.  Now it's about whether I subscribe to the tranditional Mises view or double down on Murray Rothbard - times change!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 18:24 | 2861303 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Dear 'Little Miss Blindness',

I junked YOU because I don't owe, you, your momma or any other fucker an Obamaphone or one fuckin' cent... that was stolen from ME by a corrupt, self-serving, parasitic entity otherwise know as the State (BTW All Governments not just Amerika).  Which is supported and promoted by the 'sheeple' as a 'real' contest between some red and blue team, and/or Green. It boils down to one team (or alliance of Teams) being 'democratically' elected to decide to fuck over some group(s), it also enables the winner to throw some trinkets they way of some group(s) (Note: that either 'Team' never harm the BIG group that finances each team and the beloved 'State') and both teams ALLWAYS fuck over the larger group stuck in the middle that are just trying to work, save and get ahead (Note: most of the last group also supports the system due to ignorance). In other words via inflation and debasement of the currency, taxation, endeless regulations, bailouts, legislation, endless wars, waste, unfunded promises, bribes, the list goes on..... Not that you would get what the fuck what this is about.

Have you ordered your iphone 5 yet? Planning to sell your iphone 4s on ebay?  Hey, why not give your iphone 4s to your Momma?

You have been on this site for over a year and have not learnt anything - try reading books it will not hurt.

 

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 19:17 | 2861469 resurger
resurger's picture

fag!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:37 | 2861751 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

I junked you because you don't know how to make a logical inference.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:31 | 2860730 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture

 

 

 

This Woman Has 30 Free “ObamaPhones”

 

You should probably help your mother you probably won't like what O has in store for her and frankly I'm sick of being forced to pay for everyone else's mother and brother. Same thing goes for Obama what a fraud he has no problem's redistributing our money he should go first and give away his own multi-millions before trying to force me to give away my hard earned money. 

 

“We Need Death Panels,” Writes Obama Advisor

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:34 | 2860751 IrishSamurai
IrishSamurai's picture

Here's a novel idea ... Buy your Mother and your Mother-In-Law a phone.  Put them on your family plan.

It's what I did (and I pay for my wife's phone) ... but then I'm a responsible adult who takes care of my family and doesn't expect the government to do it for me ...

 

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:31 | 2861164 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Yeah - pay DOUBLE "Universal Service" taxes and allow some other "Poor" person to have an Obama phone - winnner!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:36 | 2860760 Lndmvr
Lndmvr's picture

Dad died 5 months ago at 87. One of the lucky ones, went out in 4 days. Left Mom with about 500K. Not bad for a polak from the coal regions who was told, " leave, no work here if if your not Italian or Irish. Worked up to 2 weeks before passing. Not all old people are paraites.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:55 | 2860849 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

Yep, my mom worked till she was 81 after raising 4 kids. Would work today at 87 if she could find someone that would hire her. My father died early in a car accident. Together they both worked 60 years and mom's SS check is $750 a month.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:39 | 2860775 HeliBen
HeliBen's picture

Lousy kids, you should be paying for your mother's phone! Technically your mothers are not leeches, YOU ARE.

Your post is EXACTLY what is wrong with this country. Gubmint gonna do it, I don't have to, gubmint good while it robs us all blind.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:51 | 2860829 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

Don't you love your mother enough to pay for a cellphone?  If not, then why should everyone else have to?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:17 | 2860930 aheady
aheady's picture

I don't get why everybody (AND THEIR MOTHER) needs cellphones. Why not a good old landline? Does she not have one of those already?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:03 | 2860980 akak
akak's picture

You beat me to it!

I utterly despise cell phones, particularly the socially corrosive effects their widespread use has had on our already-decaying society.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:47 | 2861045 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

A cellphone in your pocket is infinately more useful then a landline when you've fallen and broken something.  That is unless you hate grandma and want the bitch to crawl 30 ft to the phone, possibly down/up some stairs in agony.  Once she gets there your landline is probably on top of a table or mounted on the wall 4 ft up.  And $deity forbid she might want to LEAVE THE HOUSE.

Asshole.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:10 | 2861066 akak
akak's picture

And how many people (particularly elderly women) actually keep a cellphone at all times in their pocket AT HOME?

Wouldn't your grandma be ever-so-much safer if you just had her RFD-chipped and tracked at all times, and had surveillance --- oops, I mean "security" --- cameras installed in every one of the rooms in her house .... and in her car ... and in every public place that she might go?  That IS the logical end of the road we are all on, isn't it?

"Help, my lameass argument has fallen, and it can't get up!"

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:01 | 2861080 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

You sir, are a dumbass. No one owes her a phone. PERIOD!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:05 | 2861087 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

Reading fail.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:20 | 2861129 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

 

To make it clear. From your prior post:

"Don't you love your mother enough to pay for a cellphone?  If not, then why should everyone else have to?"

 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 18:50 | 2861388 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Or....she could live in a much less dangerous facility for seniors...or she could pay for her own cellphone...or her children could pay for her cellphone (presumably, they're more interested in her continuing to draw breath than I am).

I don't hate Grandma. I just have my own to take care of right now.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 09:37 | 2867388 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

That is exactly what I was saying, so aparently my position isn't clear.  If someone won't pony up the funds for their own grandma, then why are they thinking it is OK to make everyone else do it.  The cell comment was talking about the utility of cellphones, not supporting tax robbery for them.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:09 | 2860907 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

So I suppose my 72-year-old mother (who just lost her husband this past April after nearly 53 years of marriage, and herself almost died in the same month) and my fiance's 73-year-old mother (who suffered four strokes last year AND had surgery to repair a broken neck) both should be hung or shot for having a free phone paid for by we, the people. They're just leeching off of you and I, aren't they?

 

Now if you just would have said "paid for by we their children" you would have been on to something.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:40 | 2861013 fig_newton Trader
fig_newton Trader's picture

Dude wtf does your mom need a cell phone for anyway she's 74 she prob doesn't even kno how to work it. And these guys are right go get a job and buy your mom a phone don't expect the rest of us to pay for other ppls shit. Entitlements are fine jus in moderation not like how they are now. Bottom line senior citizens dont need cell phones.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:52 | 2861057 JoBob
JoBob's picture

From the poor spelling, lack of punctuation, and brilliant concept that senior citizens don't need cell phones, I assume you're about 19 and are way too bright to waste your time on ZH.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:05 | 2861088 fig_newton Trader
fig_newton Trader's picture

Good assessment. I just don't think they are nesscary and warrant entitlement spending. Cell phones are great and all but society has done fine with out them before they became a "nessescity" for every person and 6 year old kid and especially senior citizens who have spent majority of their lives with out them. That is what I was trying to say. P.S. last time I checked this wasn't my highschool English class.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 21:47 | 2861928 Mary Wilbur
Mary Wilbur's picture

Dear Fig, Your spelling is improved. Keep working on it. http://www.dictionary.com is a big help to me. You misspelled "necessary."

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:44 | 2861028 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Excuse me, but I believe it is your responsibility and the responsibility of your fiance and your various siblings to provide necessities your aged parents cannot provide for themselves, if indeed they cannot provide such things.  This is how such things have traditionally been handled.  Government programs such as this are engineered to encourage dependency, and often when means testing look only at income and not at whether you have a paid up home or money in the bank.  Were your respective parents living without a phone before this program?  

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:59 | 2861810 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Today, one is a nonentity without a cellphone.

I remember when it was a luxury to have an extra long curly cord on the rotary dial phone. You could sit in the den in a comfy chair instead of standing next to the stove in the kitchen.

I had to get up and change the TV channel with pliers.

 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:32 | 2863224 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Awesome. 

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 17:21 | 2861134 lead salad
lead salad's picture

To answer your question, yes, they are leeching off of you and I. Go buy your mother and future mother in law a phone with your own damned money....fucking leeches.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 18:47 | 2861373 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Why haven't your mother and your fiance's mother prepared better for their late life?

If the phone is not a reasonable complaint, then where does "fair" end and "unfair" begin? Do I owe someone a Segway? Will backrubs be salve enough for them?

Tell you what: if I pay to euthanize them, can we strike a deal?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 21:44 | 2861617 Mary Wilbur
Mary Wilbur's picture

I'm 65 and manage just fine without one. I read in the WSJ of a woman in San Francisco paying $2000 a month to her wireless carrier to finance her family's 4 smartphones. What idiocy.

This is an interesting quote I found somewhere on the internet, probably Marxists.org.

"Each worker, each peasant, each citizen must understand that he alone can bring help, and that he has nothing to rely on except from himself." Vladimir Lenin

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:51 | 2861783 conspicio
conspicio's picture

I'm sorry for your loss.

 

Now, go to Target and buy your mom a pre-paid phone and some refill cards you cheap fuck. And cancel her cable TV if she cannot afford a phone. Jeezez. Fucking ungrateful kids these days. I got your downvote right here, Mr. Proletariat.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:44 | 2860784 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

kaiserhoff:

Funny I didn't hear Soros clapping after the debate the other night.  What's up with him?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 16:39 | 2861010 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

From the look on his face, I'd say he has the clap.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:08 | 2860630 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

I think we all knew the Goebbels admin was going with this print today. Probably should have done it last month to make it less obvious but they don't even care. You know that toothless sweathog with the obamaphone isn't reading this and they know it too. The underclass is ozero's biggest voter bloc and they remain clueless

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:21 | 2860688 Blasé Faire
Blasé Faire's picture

I'm not as pessimistic as many of you on ZH so don't feel we have an exact correlation, but here are some interesting points on propaganda:

Joseph Goebbels expressed the need to utilize propaganda to “work on [the] people until they are addicted to us,” which would make it significantly easier to act freely without being met by general discontent

Aldous Huxley stated “propaganda gives force and direction to the successive movements of popular feeling and desire; but it does not do much to create these movements” - People want to believe in improvement

1933 Germany: restrictions were imposed on the press under a Weimar Law that “forbade all publications whose contents were liable to endanger official security and order, as well as any utterances directed against regulations of the new state” - At least ZH can still talk shit about what we've got, right?

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 20:56 | 2861795 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Yeah we can say what we want and every word is being stored in Utah. I have a friend who was in Tiananmen Square during the protests. Came down with food poisoning on the day of and missed the excitement. He left the city right away because he knew the authorities were taking photos all through the peaceful stage. He made it to the US but all his friends were ultimately rounded up. After hearing his story I'm less than thrilled to know how much is being tracked. My friend's friends were acting legally but after the fact things were seen differently. I don't make the assumption that my legitimate political expressions will always be seen in the correct light.

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:10 | 2860639 resurger
resurger's picture

Since when Jack Welch started to grow conscience!

He is a scum bag like the rest of them...

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:12 | 2860653 Big Corked Boots
Big Corked Boots's picture

Neutron Jack...

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:16 | 2860640 pashley1411
pashley1411's picture

Dam nice of those 800,000 coed's reporting their sugar baby status to the federal surveyors.

Just my fantasy, okay?   The reality is that economic statistics are racing the dollar to "very rough tp" status.

Can only be compared to the contempt once reserve for Chinese statistics.   oh, wait....

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:12 | 2860641 Frozen IcQb
Frozen IcQb's picture

As a PT employee, I can a least buy an IP5!

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:11 | 2860645 no life
no life's picture

They busted Nixon for 'tweaking' the jobs numbers..

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 15:19 | 2860683 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

You know how bad it is when we all yearn for the return of 'Tricky Dicky".

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