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The European Disunion: The Richest Increasingly Want To Fragment From The Poorest

Tyler Durden's picture


Europe, and its apparent Union, is rapidly fragmenting as tensions mount on large and small scales across all of its regions and nations. From Scotland's independence referendum to Flanders' autonomy and now Catalonian separatism on the rise once more, this is no longer a north-south divide, but a rich/poor, debt/no-debt divide. As the NY Times notes, this seems to emerge from the ebbing of the concept of shared sovereignty (richer - or less debt-saturated - nations increasing anger at having to bail out their poorer neighbors), or as Stratfor describes it - the paradox of integration - as this apparently 'good thing' means vastly different things depending on which side of the fence you sit on. Now, as Russia Today reports, Venice is pushing for independence from Rome and there is increasing independence movements in Sicily and Sardinia. As old battles and historical grievance come back to the fore, "when it comes to the crunch, while money may be the catalyst (who commits what to central budgets); it is, as the NY Times puts it, "the meta-narrative and emotions of 'do we feel oppressed?... as the ghosts of history return." From Bannockburn to WWII, "Europe seems shakier; some of the taboo questions are coming out again!"


Stratfor On The Fragmentation Of Europe (and the paradox of integration) - great overall summary of the tensions facing the dis-union:


and specifically addressing the rise of independence across the union and the drivers (both economic and socio-political) of such uprising:



NY Times: Europe's Richer Regions Want Out

Catalonia may be the catalyst for a renewed wave of separatism in the European Union, with Scotland and Flanders not far behind. The great paradox of the European Union, which is built on the concept of shared sovereignty, is that it lowers the stakes for regions to push for independence.



While a post-national European Union may be emerging out of the euro zone crisis, with a drive for more fiscal union and more centralized control over national budgets and banks, the crisis has accelerated calls for independence from member countries’ richer regions, angry at having to finance poorer neighbors.


Artur Mas, the Catalan president, recently shook Spain and the markets with a call for early regional elections and promised a referendum on independence from Spain, although Madrid considers it illegal. Scotland is planning an independence referendum for the autumn of 2014. The Flemish in Flanders have achieved nearly total autonomy, both administrative and linguistic, but still resent what they consider to be the holdover hegemony of the French-speakers of Wallonia and the Brussels elite, emotions that will be on display in provincial and communal elections Oct. 14.


There are countless things that hold unhappy countries, like marriages, together — shared history, shared wars, shared children, shared enemies. But the economic crisis in the European Union is also highlighting old grievances.


Many in Catalonia and Flanders, for example, argue that they pay significantly more into the national treasury than they receive, even as national governments cut public services...




Now the Brussels director for the Open Society Institute, Ms. Grabbe said the key variable for separatism is less a matter of money than of historical grievance and language.


A lot of the pressure is about revisiting old settlements and defeats and agreements about who commits what to central budgets,” ...


But the crisis has also presented a real conundrum for regional leaders, because it has undermined the attraction of the European Union. ...


As euroskepticism rises in the United Kingdom, these issues have come to bedevil Alex Salmond, the leader of the Scottish National Party, whose slogan is “Scotland in Europe.” The 2014 referendum is supposedly timed to the 700th anniversary of a decisive episode in the first war for Scottish independence, the Battle of Bannockburn.


European Union has traditionally been popular with the leaders of these regions... “They see strengthening the power of Brussels as diminishing and relativizing national governments, a process accelerated by the single market in Europe,” Mr. Janning said. Many of them have formed regional groupings that bypass the central government — Catalonia, along with Baden-Württemberg in Germany, Rhône-Alpes in France and Lombardy in Italy, for example, are regional powerhouses that call themselves “the four motors for Europe” and together have a bigger G.D.P. than Spain.


“But now,” Mr. Janning went on to say, “comes the crisis,” which presents a dilemma for the regions, because it also means a re-concentration of power by national capitals trying to cut the national budget. “Now eyes are again on Madrid and Rome and Paris and Berlin,” he said, “so regional opportunities are squeezed, and the affluent are made to pay.”


While European leaders believe the answer to the crisis is “more Europe,” which would ordinarily please separatist regions, European voters and taxpayers are shaken, skeptical and angry. Mr. Janning told me: “These regional entities and leaders need to be on the right side of public sentiment and feel close to public opinion and regional identity. So now they’re torn.”




There are also larger anxieties at play...


European (and NATO) enlargement to the east was a major accomplishment, but it distorted the cores of both organizations, especially the European Union. And now with the new crisis of the euro, “Europe seems shakier, there’s so much anxiety,” Ms. Grabbe said. “Some of these taboo questions,” she said, “are coming out again,” with economic, legal and ethnic trouble re-emerging in the new states, like Hungary and Romania, and new divisions in the old ones.



and the latest protest begins in Italy as Venice (and Sicily and Sardinia potentially) begin to demand independence


Russia Today: Venetian protesters demand independence from Rome

Protesters have gathered in front of the central government in Veneto, Italy to demand an immediate referendum on the region’s independence from Rome. The reason is mainly economic, according to the rally’s organizer.




The situation here is almost explosive...


The territory would be known as the "Repubblica Veneta," and would consist of around five million people...


The main reason is economic. We are in a situation worse than a colony because the tax rate in Italy is the highest the world and our services are extremely poor. We have 20 billion euros missing from our regional resources each year and that’s unbearable,” Pizzati said.


The push for independence shouldn’t come as a total surprise – Venice has only been part of Italy for 146 years.




“It can more than survive on its own. It will be the second richest country in Europe,” he said.




Sicily and Sardinia have strong movements for independence too…soon after us, it’s going to happen to other regions of Italy…and probably in other places in Europe like Belgium or Spain,” he said.


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Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:40 | 2863244 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Balkanization for everybody!!!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:49 | 2863265 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

whole idea of a union is that elites and slaves both benefit from the relationship together.

slaves have to accept lower status for financing and support by elites

elites have to shoulder responsibility for bringing in the money and general welfare



Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:56 | 2863307 Rossalgondamer
Rossalgondamer's picture

I feel you've nailed it, minus two related points.

Enforce fiat currency, and

Apply ink remover generously to elite 'shoulders'

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 19:52 | 2863673 Colombian Gringo
Colombian Gringo's picture

Banksters Raus! Hang them all!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:32 | 2863469 YuropeanImbecille
YuropeanImbecille's picture

I do not know what you mean with the "poor" but most people are trashy scum worthless animals. so seriously fuck them.


I know I will get 99% red little communist arrows, but seriously you chose to be scum!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:58 | 2863609 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

What makes you so special?  Why do you deign to come here?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 13:45 | 2865199 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

Well, him and us being on ZH implies we are well informed which does make us somewhat special at least.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 20:33 | 2863726 frenzic
frenzic's picture

More like 2SD, some 70%. Mr elitist. Maybe you are talking about Americans.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 10:22 | 2864578 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

hey middle manager, you sound grumpy, time to fire someone soon right? and put on another 30 pounds for the holidays ya shitball

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:08 | 2863529 rotagen
rotagen's picture

The modern day "elites" would benefit from a bullet to the head.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:51 | 2863393 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

It's not separatism, it's SELF DETERMINATION!

and it serves the fucktard fascist federalists right...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:29 | 2863465 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Very perceptive, if I may say so, Mr/Ms Urban Redneck. It's separatism if Kurds want their own country, or the Palestinians want theirs back. It's a completely another matter if the Kosovo Albanians want their state. Now, why is that?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:20 | 2863549 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

All depends on the perspective.  But weapons have a way of changing the muppet commentators dictated word choice- like with the IRA & ETA, color and religion are irrelevant while maintenance of wealth & power by the elites are critical.  In the case of the Kurds it all depends on which side of the border you stand, whether a person regarded as a terrorist or self determinist in the eyes of the State.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 20:46 | 2863745 whoisjohngalt11
whoisjohngalt11's picture

That is their true plan not to unite but to divide so that they then can unite by for those who have been divided can be conquered. i don't know who they are , but i see their plan..

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:43 | 2863248 falak pema
falak pema's picture

If the richest want to fragment from the poorest they are no longer european, they have betrayed the spirit of the Renaissance and of Enlightenment, they have become 20 th century Americans. 

THere is no more to say. Its the last metro to hell. 

How "greed is good" is now eating into the soul of first world to the very core. Decadence galore! 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:51 | 2863271 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture


These divisions were always there.What was false was  papering over them in some

eurocrats wet dream.If the 300 year union between England and Scotland fails,what

chance a untied Europe.The Scots actually did well out of that in the last 100 years,both

financially and in disproportionate political power in Westminster.

A united Europre was merely a transitory shared delusion.

Reality bites back.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:10 | 2863308 falak pema
falak pema's picture

you sir are talking like your avatar. Enuff said. Divide and rule, half naked fakir, never will I undo our Empire, and between Europe and the Usa I will always chose the USA.

All this is his legacy. I don't buy the current Euro kleptocracy. But I do subscribe to a greater vision where we retain the essential lessons of W1 & WW2. Never to tempt the devil again in Armageddon. It requires compromise and convergence. 

That is non negotiable if we have learnt the lessons of our collective past.

This poster is just pouring oil to confort the kleptocracy cabal of Pax Americana and its relays in the City. 

This eurobashing by Anglo shills is totally unwarranted. The European project is necessary, even if the current Anglo conspiracy of runaway financial oligarchy has caught the eurocrats with their pants down.

We have to recover the essential once the storm has passed. Its the demise of current PAx Americana which will clear up the past legacy of a forty year empire that has morphed into this dyspotia of today.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:57 | 2863916 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

One could argue it is the failure of Pas Americana that is causing the EZ to "dissemble." (which of course is literally done when trying to explain the actions of the the surge in value of the Euro to me is the "tell" that the gig is up for some "grand unification scheme"...but is that really so bad with the USA wilding in the Middle East? Aren't all we saying here is that Europe has learned from all its wars of aggression while the USA has not? sure seems like it to me...and given the Marshal Plan which was a Plan for Europe to rebuild itself and learn from its ultimate mistake...without imposition by the USA of an imperial authority but indeed the exact opposite (NATO is a collective enterprise...the exact opposite of the now failed Warsaw Pact)...and General Marshal and the creator of these institutions (Dean Acheson et al) look quite pre-escient indeed. Unless you want to argue that the USA's approach to extolling the virtues of freedom as practiced on the homeland are something that must be emulated of course....

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:15 | 2863937 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Cut the crap with your statist bullshit. Because someone doesn't want to be ruled by a gang of tyrants who live 2000 miles away, they are greedy and backwards?

In your twisted shitbrain, the Europeans were greedy and backwards because they refused to be ruled by Hitler and then Stalin. 

The EU is only necessary for the tyrants and bankers who want to rule over Europe with an iron fist while pillaging from the peons.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 11:33 | 2864639 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

1 currency to rule them all

and in the darkness, bind them.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 02:44 | 2864098 Haus-Targaryen
Haus-Targaryen's picture


I'm not Anglo -- I'm German.  


See, there are a few sheeple left over here that can think independently as well, but like she (lady in the video) so elloquently said, until local politics catches up with national ones, we will bankrupt ourselves trying to apologize to a bunch of lazy worthless countries for something none of us, and none of them were alive for.  

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 10:45 | 2864596 odatruf
odatruf's picture

She also said that the Germans are afraid that the end of the Euro will mean the end of Germany's export economy.  Why should that be true? Sure, I understand that currency exchange plays a part, but look at the facts. Prior to the single currency in 99/00, German exports were growing at a healthy rate. So, why would now be different?  So long as the products were competitive and of high quality, they would do fine.  As another data point, look at the UK, who is not on the Euro but shares almost all other market similarities . If having one's own currency would be a death knell, then we should see it there, but we don't.  UK exports are growing nicely and in relative parity with the growth of German exports, so where is the Euro advantage?

Well, ok you might say, but the UK currency (GBP) must have dropped in value relatively speaking in order to keep the export levels high.  You might think that, but it isn't true.  The data proves it.  It also proves that prior to the Euro conversion, the Pound to Mark conversion was pretty stable as well. Meaning that the internal economic conditions count for more than the external ones when thinking about exports.

Yes, there are many asterisks and exceptions to my argument, but the thesis holds.  Germany's export economy would be fine and any loss of trade would be more than made up for by the gain in cutting the rest of Europe lose. And it would be to the rest of Europe's benefit, too.


See here for UK exports:

Here for German exports:

And here to look at currency values for pre and post Euro values:


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:43 | 2863256 knukles
knukles's picture

Oh Jesus, not more Eurotrashhypocrisy. 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:05 | 2863303 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Rooks rike we're stuck with Commie-Tyler tonight.


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:46 | 2863258 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Inevitably things expand and contract in cycles... we'll see what happens though, but prosperity for all only hides past grievances.


I wonder how many in Venice really call for independence, just looking at a cropped photo it does not look like many.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:48 | 2863264 ShortTheUS
ShortTheUS's picture




Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:23 | 2863461 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

If Apartheid is what you desire... Move to Israel...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:54 | 2863504 Sheriff Douchen...
Sheriff Douchenik from AZ's picture

A shitload better than post-apartheid South Africa libtool.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:06 | 2863523 Solarman
Solarman's picture

Or maybe to Egypt and open up a bible study or demand equal rights for the Copts, who by the way lived in Egypt 700 years before the Muslims.  You are such a douche.  Arabs live better in Israel than they do in their own countres. Have you been to Lebanon or Jordan?  The love for the Palestinians overflows.  HaHaHaHa. Get off of this Jew hating misinformation campaign.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:17 | 2863940 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Strange the leftist infatuation with the Palestinians while virtually ignoring the plight of the south Sudanese, Coptics, Kurds and many other groups who are much worse off.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 16:28 | 2865763 Vigilante
Vigilante's picture

All Libtards/Lefties/Loonies are keeping a watchful eye on Israel..

at the same time embracing every tyrannical tinpot dictator...

...their latest love du jour...Ahmadinejad...

Viva Israhell bitches.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:51 | 2863270 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture



07-03-12 - STATISM - Part I I- Charles Hugh Smith 

Banks Make Huge Profits From Central Banks, But Who Will Bail Out Central Banks? 

Special interest groups are working hard to develop mass conformity thru global acceptance in the new world thinking.    ;>)


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:52 | 2863272 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

It's not new, in Belgium the same thing a few years ago

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:01 | 2863293 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

By the way, culture, soevereignity, diversity and brutal 'get your greedy fingers out of my neighbourhood' are THE perfect weapons against the usual suspects. In case you didn't notice.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:28 | 2863464 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Figures in article above are really wrong for Belgium, so is the map, so is much of the article

But Stratfor and NY Times are both CIA bullsh*t companies ... and American journalists usually do not know shite about Europe ... Plus they are always trying to sell 'European crisis' ideas to distract from hell in America

Brussels is not part of Flanders, tho the map above makes it look like that. Belgium is not '69% Flanders'. There are around 60% of Belgians natively speaking Dutch, but some of them are in Brussels or French-speaking Wallonia. There is a small German-speaking region too.

Belgium and Canada have been the same since the 1970s ... two main languages, always talking about splitting up, never doing it ... It is how we are, tavern-talk

There is nothing wrong with a country where regional identity is stronger than the national one ... USA used to be that way too till Abraham Lincoln's war killed 600,000 Americans to make it One Imperial Nation

Europe is more complex and different, but there is a heritage of the Enlightenment that really means something all across here ... no death penalty, some sense of human rights for everyone

We have almost no one in prison on the European Continent, very little police state or judicial harassment ... in the north-West Continent there is essentially zero poverty among legal residents ... still the best place to live in the world

We have a Byzantine political structure that is difficult for non-Europeans to grasp ... but Stratfor or NY Times are not the people to explain anything about Europe

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:38 | 2863479 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

Thanks.  Your comments help me better understand Europe....I'm a US citizen, but will forever remain interested in how other countries/nations/civilizations work.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:59 | 2863512 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Now i can run and hide. With only one state, i have to keep running.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:44 | 2863487 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Weet ik. Ik ken enkele Belgen, van zeer dichtbij. Maar zoals Vlamingen Walen kennen, zo kennen Spanjaarden de Hollanders of Belgen niet. Die culturen liggen mijlenver uit elkaar, wat ik wil zeggen is dat de Belgische vriendschap tussen noord en zuid absoluut niet kan worden vertaald naar een Europese versie. De gevoelens die het vormen van een regering in Belgie lang hebben gedwarsboomd zijn vriendschappelijk en cultureel. Dus houdbaar. Op Europees niveau zijn ze onhoudbaar. Enneh, geen couponnekes kopen he?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:00 | 2863922 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 08:29 | 2864453 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 20:31 | 2863719 frenzic
frenzic's picture

Ehm. Check your records on the police state thingy. You're not Dutch I gather. Just last week they digitised my motherfucking fingerprints in order for me to get a new rfid equipped passport. There has been a slew of court cases on this and TPTB have just stopped storing that data in what they cleverly call a decentralised database but nobody is talking about the backups that are made AND stored at the issuing party (local government) on account of another law on administration. There are camera's everywhere. I live downtown and just around the corner there is a place where they stash some 30 to 50 brownshirt (well blue actually, like the ties of the ruling class) assholes with no training but all the rights to bug and fine you. That place was not there two years ago and the police station is only a couple of hundred meters away. We have choppers and planes constantly buzzing the area. Shit is getting fucked up fast.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:19 | 2863871 BigDuke6
BigDuke6's picture

Goddam right!
Amsterdam is a changed place these days
It's a big effort to get baked now

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:25 | 2863949 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

You spew a ton of bullshit. The EU countries criminalize speech. People go to jail for saying things that are not politically correct. That's what the USSR did when it was around. It's basically against the law in many EU countries to defend yourself against criminals. 

Why do you select the wealthy northwest to point out that there is zero poverty? How are the Europeans doing in Greece, Italy, and Spain? Do they not matter?

That byzantine political structure was set up so that bankers like you can steal from the people and keep them from rebelling. First it was Ireland, then Greece, then Spain. Next will be Portugal and Italy. 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 08:35 | 2864458 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

There is a lot of poverty in northwest Europe.

But it is hidden. 60% of the Dutch people work just to pay bills.

They look fine/OK because they have acces to cheap clothing made in India.

The political 'class' is in full service of zion.


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 16:33 | 2865773 Vigilante
Vigilante's picture

Better Zion than Mecca.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 23:48 | 2866731 awakening
awakening's picture

'People go to jail for saying things that are not politically correct.'

My favorite are laws against Holocaust Denial, IMO that may probably become a popular option for those looking for 3 meals in a bed to sit out WWIII when it starts up (unless that changes to a period of conscripted service in the military, though you'd have bigger problems by now if that happened).

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:26 | 2863951 Cosimo de Medici
Cosimo de Medici's picture

I suspect it is all once and at the same time more complex and more simple.  We are all a product of our biology.  If the internet taught us anything, it is that deep down none of us really likes each other.  We all want---or rather we are driven by instinct to believe---our gene pool is the one that should propagate.  That's why in each culture it's "about family".  Family is automatically better?  Toss us all on the planet with no memory and we'd choose our family as our closest associates?  I don't think so.  No, it is the instinct that drives us to work for our own gene pool's survival. 

Europe as a construct is a lot older than the US.  Folks in Europe already settled into their respective families, or the closest thing to it, ethnic groups.  So long as times are good, we can tolerate less similarity in the collective societal gene pool, even interbreed to make the genetic differences less with time.  Barely a scratch, however, unleashes Yugoslavia of the 1990s.  When there is a struggle for survival, minor ethnic differences take on far greater importance.  Biology drives it.

The US is young, and that E Pluribus Unum thing had as its goal that all the mutts and mongrels---the wretched refuse from your teeming shores---trying to work together.  It took a while.  Resources and an ethnically competitive work ethic helped it come together, give or take a Civil War and a Civil Rights movement or two.  Razor thin are the connections, however, and a disunion in the US, as this aritcle suggests about Europe, is quite possible.

Now that times are not so good, we're all getting a little more concerned about somebody else's gene pool propagating more effectively and efficiently than our own, whether we accept that as the reason or not.  We're becoming less tolerant.  Look how much Joooo hatred shows up here.  Look at the various nationalistic movements in Europe.  Look at the skinheads, something most societies have in one form or another, which is just a dressed up way of saying my gene pool over yours.

So there's an EU?  Wonderful.  Worked like a charm, sort of, when times were good.  Now, however, Germans and Greeks don't like each other so much.  There's a general North-South divide, within the zone and even within countries (Italy, Spain). Also, slowly lots of ethnic originals (i.e., French French as opposed to Algerian French) are getting concerned about the "cultural dilution" owing to the influx of non-Judeo Christian types. 

So what happens first, does it all blow up, or do we inbreed enough so that genetic differences become so minor that instinct takes a back seat?  I'm going to go with blow-up.

On here we often write that we cannot escape debt.  That's true, but neither can we escape biology.  The Arabs have a saying:  "Me against my brother, my brother and I against you".

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 17:22 | 2865936 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

For 'americans', the group is all. It is impressive.

It pervades everything as such levels that once again, it pictures so obviously that 'americanism' is all about submission.

As the group is all, it is people fighting for their family gene pool to pass down.

'Americans', with their group perception, even manage to manage gene passing down a group matter.

Wooo, impressive. With US of A as leader of the 'american' world...

Passing down collectively genes is of no interest.

Again, 'americans' are stuck with 'americanism'. On the paper, freedom can be shared by everyone.
Everyone can be freed. It is an independent condition.

But 'americans' run an extortion of the weak, farming of the poor.

One could run a clones society using the 'american' model, this will stick up.

For an extorter to be, extorted are needed. For farmers to be, farmed are needed.

No extorted? No extorters. No farmed? No farmer.

But, hey, 'americans' are freedom supporters, they cant admit that they are running an extortion, farming show that requires two sided coins.

So they make up biological explanations to show that ultimately the group is all.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:56 | 2863281 Vegetius
Vegetius's picture

So we see more people wanting to go their own way, but never fear we will see the rise of militant Nationalism.

Do I care, not a bit of it, the Euro trash created this mess and the whole ugly mess is going to explode.

So what to do well it’s too late now to do anything except relax and enjoy it.

“(A unified) ‘Europe’ is the result of plans. It is, in fact, a classic utopian project, a monument to the vanity of intellectuals, a programme whose inevitable destiny is failure: only the scale of the final damage done is in doubt.”

— Margaret Thatcher

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:16 | 2863865 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

Aunt Maggie at her best.


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:01 | 2863294 economicminor
economicminor's picture

There really is no debt no debt divide. Just like in the US, the euro is an instrument of debt. Those holding the underlying bonds have as much to lose as those who hold the unpaid debts.  Germany needed the southern countries to buy its products so lending them money made sense until the southern countries over maxed their debts. Germany's economy would never have been so strong without those sales.


The problem is world wide. People and governments never learned decent math skills and have no idea how much is to much. We are finding out the hard way that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:02 | 2863295 economicminor
economicminor's picture

There really is no debt divide. Just like in the US, the euro is an instrument of debt. Those holding the underlying bonds have as much to lose as those who can't pay their debts.  Germany needed the southern countries to buy its products so lending them money made sense until the southern countries over maxed their debts. Germany's economy would never have been so strong without those sales.


The problem is world wide. People and governments never learned decent math skills and have no idea how much is to much. We are finding out the hard way that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:04 | 2863300 blindman
blindman's picture

usury doesn't work?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 06:03 | 2864167 albanian
albanian's picture

you ar right :people never learned math-they just learned haw TOO PRINT,STUPID

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 06:07 | 2864168 albanian
albanian's picture

ECONOMICMINOR you mast be very smart?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 14:12 | 2865255 blindman
blindman's picture

actually he is a very astute commenter of many
years on subjects economic and sundry socio-related

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:04 | 2863301 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

The real question: If a derivative contract falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?



Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:07 | 2863305 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Let's take.....a dozen or so totally different countries....

Who speak totally different dialects

Who have totally different cultures

Who have totally different economies

Who have warred and killed each other for centuries

..throw in some Irish hoodlums....



that'll work.........................................fucking NOT!!!!!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 19:20 | 2863637 j0nx
j0nx's picture


And it will be the same way in the states with liberals and conservatives. Liberalism is a disease that is incompatible with the core values of this nation and eventually it will be stamped out as the productive people finally get tired of the leeches and the ones telling us we should be supporting them while they themselves don't take the medicine they prescribe. Civil war 2 within a decade if things continue on this track. There's a lot of pent up anger out there amongst Americans who are sick of watching their country turn into a 3rd world ghetto and sick and tired of being accused of racism when they say anything about it. It's palpable.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:20 | 2863872 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

Yep, turn the country over to the Glen Beck, Fox News, Neanderthal Fundamentalists.

That will solve all our problems. At once.



Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:30 | 2863952 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Yep, turn the country over to the retarded Chimpocrat Party who destroyed Detroit, Newark, DC, Cleveland, Memphis, New Orleans, Clownifornia, etc and things will be fine.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 11:23 | 2864634 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Evidence Item 1: Communists disguise themselves as Greens and pass all kinds of stupid regulations against property, freedom, and free enterprise.

Commie (Green) regulations force CA to use gas only available in 1 state; prevent new refineries.

Commerce grinds to a halt, evil "capitalism" is thwarted. Yay for Politburo!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 11:19 | 2864630 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

common sense does not work for commies, who only want Power and Control.

Also, they like those special stores for "Party Members Only" where you can buy the Good Shit.

In America, everyone is looking for party.

In Soviet Union Party is Looking for you.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:19 | 2863322 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Sorry , I would love to debate this but I must go to the pub and engage in dialogue............

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:40 | 2863364 sangell
sangell's picture

The troika has not taken all your money. This will have to be reported.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:21 | 2863333 blabam
blabam's picture

Stupid Flanders.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:41 | 2863367 sangell
sangell's picture

Greater Dutchland

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 20:15 | 2863701 frenzic
frenzic's picture

Hell yeah.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:24 | 2863339 El
El's picture

Can you blame them, really? These days, charity and welfare isn't seen by its recipients as a means to survive, but rather, they seem to think they should have the same lifestyles as those who produce and create wealth. A lot of folks go through hard times in life, but when you make your life's work about receiving the proceeds of government wealth distribution...well...that's morally wrong.

Call me old fashioned if you like, but if you have a cell phone, car, cable television, computer and an internet aren't poor.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:32 | 2863954 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

they still deserve an ipad 3 and vacation

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:34 | 2863349 lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

nobody wants to live next to poor people; look at the ghettos in america.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:33 | 2863956 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

crime has nothing to do with it. it's purely racism. the non-racist white liberals all live in the ghettos. i saw george clooney and barbara streisand taking a walk by a detroit crackhouse the other day on their way home from work.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 06:23 | 2864173 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

hahaha-- and Rahm Emmanuel's kids go to public school in Chicago, right?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 11:16 | 2864625 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

In the South, the White Man does not care how close the Black Man is, unless he gets too big.

In the North, the White Man does not care how Big the Black Man gets unless he gets Too close.

I personally don't care either way, but it is an apt description in general.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:37 | 2863358 Publicus
Publicus's picture

Soon, the poor will have nothing to eat but the rich.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 08:57 | 2864492 Haager
Haager's picture

5th of November - one thing to remember?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:37 | 2863361 sangell
sangell's picture

Coming soon to the American Theatre. California breaking up? The United Plains States of America? The Rocky Mountain Federaton? the Second Confederacy?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 06:28 | 2864174 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

States' Rights & hard Tenth Amendment or bust. Ah, but I'm a minarchist trapped in an imperial state.

All unrealistic projections aside, what will come after the USSA is a very valid question. I can only hope its not the Amero or Panem.


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 11:11 | 2864616 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

I suspect with the current EU financial problems and the 'fiscal cliff' in the USA, TPTB may be onn the verge of pulling it all down.

In 2008, they had to further interconnect banking worldwide. That was accomplished.

Now, we see NORTHCOM and Federal Military on the streets when there are enough National Guard and Civilian Police entities capable of enforcing the law. 23 States have State-Constituted Militias, as well, for defense of their specific state(s).

The SC/GA game was inundated with paramilitary forces, checkpoints, portable guard towers, Federal Army. This is the new Template.

Go to the NORTHCOM website; you will see a military agreement allowing for use of Canadian Armed Forces on American soil and vice-versa.

We are nearing the Event Horizon.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:46 | 2863380 reload
reload's picture

Contributing tO a central EU budget distributed without due democratic process or accountability was bound to end in tears.

Benefit recipients, at state or individual level Demanding 'more' is nothing new.   

When productive tax payers riot and burn tax offices we will be getting somewhere.


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:48 | 2863381 reload
reload's picture


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:48 | 2863383 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

You can always hire half the poor to kill the other half.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:35 | 2863957 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

the elites have been doing that for thousands of years. it's called war.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:56 | 2863405 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

The good news, the predictable idea has run out of money. The bad news, they're poking a stick at Middle East. We all know the ending of this movie. Once you understand, you can pull the curtain open and see the cartel pulling the strings. They're your issue..  

European Communist Union History part 1/ 4

Watch the entire series. Hope this helps you understand.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 11:02 | 2864589 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

A must see!

And, you can see it's parallel in USA, as we are now governed not by Congress, but by Executive Order.

The same exact process used by Hitler via the Enabling Act.


I am trying too find a link, but last week, at a campaign stop, Oblowme said "The American People will not stand in his way of re-creating the USA."

Be on Guard.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:16 | 2863439 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

At the very beginning she is talking about the perception that the EU will remain united because it MUST remain united and that the consequences are unthinkable... And why is that? Why do they MUST to be united? Why are the consequences unthinkable? The union existed for a decade or so, and now all of a sudden they MUST be together or else. Or what? Many bureaucrats will lose their jobs? The plans of the shadow governments will not be fulfilled? The countries will regain their sovereignties? The consequences ARE certainly unthinkable.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:36 | 2863961 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

central planning is easier under a world government

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 10:27 | 2864583 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

And the bennies are better for those at the Top!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 01:59 | 2864075 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

She's merely repeating the mantra of the Eurocrats.
Yes, it sounds completely stupid, but that is because it is.
Those are actually their arguments in debates about the EU. Seriously.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:34 | 2863472 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

'we started out as nomadic tribes and we'll end as nomadic tribes,... but the grand finale will come to pass when we're all herded by androids?'

oh,the ironic horror!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:54 | 2863474 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

and for those who like their verse lyrically performed, Joni Mitchell, Slouching Towards Bethlehem, live:

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:03 | 2863500 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Value systems and what civilization is about : 

A view of current times that chills my spine :


Regarding slavery, Hubbard wrote:

“… the institution of slavery that the black race has long believed to be an abomination upon its people may actually have been a blessing in disguise. The blacks who could endure those conditions and circumstances would someday be rewarded with citizenship in the greatest nation ever established upon the face of the Earth.” (Pages 183-89)

On the subject of school integration, Hubbard described black students as having a "a lack of discipline and ambition," which he said has hurt the entire educational system.

Hubbard also tackled immigration and said that Christians in America are in a similar position to that of Germans during Hitler's rise to power.

... the immigration issue, both legal and illegal ... will lead to planned wars or extermination. Although now this seems to be barbaric and uncivilized, it will at some point become as necessary as eating and breathing." (Page 9)

Jon Hubbard, Arkansas Legislator, Says Slavery May 'Have Been A Blessing' In New Book

The affirmation of the increasing social gulf between rich and poor, between christian and non christian, between white and black, are the decadent chimes of a civilization in regression, on both sides of the pond. 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:10 | 2863537 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

ahhh, Arkansas & the Klan. . .

quite the legacy

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:27 | 2863882 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture



You ARE the racist pig we have always suspected.


Keep it up, you are simply reinforcing your own persona.



Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:38 | 2863962 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

because greeks don't want to become slaves to bankers in london and bureaucrats in brussels, they must be racist. perfect logic you retarded chimp

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 06:50 | 2864186 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

There has always been a huge gap between white and black. Cathedrals in Europe, mud huts in Africa. Sailing ships, books, combustion engines, plumbing, medicine, and electronics in the West; spears, clubs, voodoo and loincloths in Africa.

Only foolish egalitarian liberals would deny the whole of natural history and claim that present hominid populations are equal. Only a suicidal marxist would spend trillions of dollars to try to make it so.

Just the facts, please. If that's racist, blame evolution, God, or Mother Nature for it. But I'm not racist for noticing it. I'm realistic, thank you.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:56 | 2863506 AustrianJim
AustrianJim's picture

The specter of a warring Europe will be brought up time and again as a way of saying that this is not a good idea, but of course there is nothing written anywhere that says that a greater number of smaller states cannot live and trade with their neighbors without going to war.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 19:22 | 2863638 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Small states are less likely to go to war, since they don't have the same hubris as larger ones.   It's doubtful, for example, the Aghan and Iraq adventures would have taken place if America were 50 independent states.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:40 | 2863965 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

there will still be plenty of wars, just on a lesser scale. the native american tribes warred constantly. so did the germanic tribes. 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 00:28 | 2864023 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

When was the last time San Marino went to war?  Monaco?  Lichtenstein?  Andorra?  Switzerland?  St. Lucia?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 10:23 | 2864581 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

...since they began earlier into socialism, we now see the result, once the money starts running out.

The result is a resurgence of ethnic/regional separatism.

The same thing will happen in the US, with producers finding areas of like-minded fellows.

Texas was a Republic.

SC was a Republic, formed mainly by expatriots from Barbados, who already had a form of autonomy from the King.

At one point, all original 13 colonies had Republic status.

Time to rethink the "association?"

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:51 | 2863603 q99x2
q99x2's picture

They only went along with the NWOs EU to get their money and benefits. Now that that's run dry who needs them. What did they expect. I expect them to soon start hunting down the banksters to take back what they stole from the countries. and thowing the bastards into jail as well. Come onto my turf and expect to work me you get what you deserve sucker.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:59 | 2863610 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

If I'm a corporation do I want to deal with larger nation-states or smaller city-states?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 19:28 | 2863647 Pseudolus
Pseudolus's picture

Come on whichever TD you are -  you can do better than this rehash of shitty sources

Wheres the analysis? Where's the diatribe? Ok, its POETS day...i'll forgive this one

This is being talked up as much as the CB's are talking up printing. Who is talking it up and why?

We all know where its going by now. HRE v2. Far from being a disaster -> Europe of the regions is the goal.

The 'worse' things get in the EU the easier the sell to the hoi polloi (shift debt burden, etc..)






Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:54 | 2863908 DaveA
DaveA's picture

Why shouldn't the rich separate themselves from the poor? According to our Secretary of State and every right-thinking European, the rich are parasites who contribute nothing to the welfare of their own countries. The poor should be happy to see them go.

Yet wherever the poor did rise up and chase away the rich (e.g. Cuba in 1959, Haiti in 1811, South Africa in 1994, Detroit in 1967), the rich started new lives elsewhere, and the poor got much poorer. To a Marxist, this only proves that poor people are even more exploited when they have a whole country to themselves!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:43 | 2863969 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

that's because the rich are competition to the marxists. the marxists lust after money and power more than anyone else, but they use subterfuge to gain it. 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 00:32 | 2864028 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein would never use subterfuge to acquire more power and money.  /sarc off

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 00:41 | 2864033 TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

" the crisis has accelerated calls for independence from member countries’ richer regions, angry at having to finance poorer neighbors."

What a shit. Don't they really know who are they financing?


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 02:03 | 2864079 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Well, the EU said that the nation state is a thing of the past. Be carefull what you wish for. This is a move against centralization of power and why would people give power to a centralist EU after the brake from a centralist nation? These are old sentiments. People for centuries wanted self determination and independence. The international court ruling of 2010 -I believe- that said that Kosovo Albanians had a right to declare independence (although it did not say that the independence itself was legal) can be used as a precedent to declare indepence by regions. It is not a coincidence that Spain did not recognize Kosovo while ETA did.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 07:10 | 2864202 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

That is the problem with Socialism.  Once they take all your stuff, you just annoy them.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 08:39 | 2864463 MillionDollarBoner_
MillionDollarBoner_'s picture

Scotland can fuck off!

Fiscal transfers from the rest of the UK to Scotland in the period from when devolution began in 1999-2000 to 2007-08 are estimated to total £75.8 billion. This represents a benefit of the pooling of risks and resources across the United Kingdom.

Scotland's public finances exhibit a structural fiscal deficit, having not been in surplus since 1980-81.

"Arc of Prosperity"? "Celtic Tiger". Bollocks! 

Oh yeah, and that Alec Salmond is a wanker! 



Even adding all tax revenues from oil and gas production for all of the UK reduces but does not eliminate this deficit over time. For the period 1980-81 to 2007-08, the cumulative net deficit, after adding tax receipts from all UK offshore oil and gas production, amounts to £23.5 billion.



Sun, 10/07/2012 - 10:17 | 2864571 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

time to spook everyone for Halloween!!! 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 16:05 | 2865459 halodoc
halodoc's picture

What's this? MAED wasn't all it was cracked up to be, eh? The theory isn't quite living up to reality?...but the words, they sounded so lovely in his mind, and surely, surely they were a thing of beauty on the page.

Me? Meh. I'm thinking MAD was a little more effective as far as preventative methods go. MAED, not so much. In fact, I'm thinking MAED is almost assuredly going to throw us into the "tragedy" he so desparately and myopically "hope[d]" he would avoid. Sometimes I dream about digging up this jackass just so I can shoot him between the eyes.

"One usually meets his destiny on his path he takes to avoid it." ~Master Shifu


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 17:30 | 2865951 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Europe is composed with 'american' nations which had been something else before turning 'american'.

On the contrary, all these movements show that the 'american' project, as wished by 'americans' residing in Europe, is progressing.

The older structures are battered down by the new european people project.

You could bet that most of the 'americans' in those areas consider themselves Europeans (as members of the european people)

What they consider, that their loyalty to their former nation is now outdated and that would prefer to place themselves directly under the umbrella of a European State apparatus.
The national level is no longer welcomed.

It is re organizing. Not fragmenting.

Scotland wants out of UK but to join directly the EU. It is a well known fact.

The Bavarians have the same leaning. They want out of Germany to place themselves under the direct authority of a European state.

Best, is that, as usual, while 'americanism' is progressing, 'americans' are obsessed with covering the whole story and make drama out of it.

So instead of reporting stuff as they are, that is a story of deeper integration to the European blob, it comes a story of disintegration.

'Americanism', for what it is worth...

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