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Israel Shoots Down Unidentified Drone Over Its Airspace

Tyler Durden's picture


Just because the middle east did not have enough countries and/or terrorist organizations shooting at random things, in outright attempts of provocation or otherwise, here comes Israel to join the party. From Reuters: "The Israeli air force shot down a drone after it crossed into southern Israel on Saturday, the military said, but it remained unclear where the aircraft came from. "An unmanned aerial vehicle was identified penetrating Israeli air space this morning, and was intercepted by the Israeli Air Force at approximately 10 a.m. (0700 GMT)," the military said in a brief statement. Soldiers were searching the area where the drone was downed - in the northern part of the Negev desert - to locate and identify the drone, the statement said. The Negev desert is near Israel's southern borders with the Gaza Strip, Egypt, Jordan and the occupied West Bank."

Drones... drones... which middle east country has a vibrant and advanced avionics industry. Must be Egypt, or no, Jordan, actually make that Syria or even Iran. Good thing it can never be Uncle Sam. Things might get just a little odd in that case.

All joking aside, though, it was only a week ago that Iran unveiled its first drone, potentially after reverse engineering the US RJ-170 that crashed on its territory back in December. From Al Jazeera:

Iran's Revolutionary Guards have unveiled a home-built long-range drone capable of reaching most of the Middle East, including the Islamic state's primary regional enemy Israel, state television has reported.


The reconnaissance drone, named Shahed 129, has a range of 2,000 km and is capable of carrying bombs and missiles, state television said.


Amir Ali Hajizadeh, the head of the Revolutionary Guards' aerospace arm, spoke during an interview on Tuesday on Iran's state TV.


Hajizadeh said that Iranian scientists designed and developed the drone.


His description of the aircraft was similar to that of the United States' RQ-170 Sentinel unmanned reconnaissance aircraft, one of which went down in Iranian territory last year.


So let's see:

  • US drone mysteriously crashes in Iran in one piece
  • Iran's engineers reverse engineer and create their own drone industry
  • So far unidentifed drone has just been shot down by Israel

What are the Intrade odds of Israel claiming in a few hours it was an Iran drone, and the overflight was a provocation and merits immediate retaliation? One thing we know: odds will be much higher in a few days when CVN-74 and LHA-5 reach their destination.

In the meantime, this blast from the past:


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Sat, 10/06/2012 - 09:58 | 2862532 RacerX
RacerX's picture

people can bash Israel all they want, but those guys don't F around.

so an Arabic country is flying these now? Lol.. About the best thing they can do is shine a spotlight with an airplane on it, ala: Batman signal.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:14 | 2862550 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Prove that was an "Arabic country" drone.

More likely a distraction designed to breed tension.

Anyone can paint any markings on anything, or even simpler to merely falsify video.

Wake me when the nukes start flying and the whole area is flat black and glow in the darky.

Until then these are nothing more than devices designed to keep everyone in a continual state of anxiety.

Distractions for manipulation of the GENPOP.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:14 | 2862566 RacerX
RacerX's picture

I guess my sarcasm didn't come through. I have zero confidence this drone came from an Arabic nation. They are technologically in the stone ages.

Yeah I agree it's probably from the US. I'd even think it's possible it's one of Isreal's own. No doubt they are trying to mix it up. But with all the rhetoric over there--they all are. I say if they all want to fight it out, then let 'em. Just don't send our boys in to do their dirty-work.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:27 | 2862577 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



It was just a Muzzie moonshot gone horribly wrong.....blame NASA.


Gonna need another 450 million Barry mucho pronto.....thanks in advance.


Check the should say made in ________

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:28 | 2862606 Mae Kadoodie
Mae Kadoodie's picture

Has anyone seen my model airplane?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:33 | 2862613 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Check lost and found in Tel Aviv.


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:04 | 2862799 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

Again....we are in the most vulnerable period for a wave of mass panic and anxiety, and this can take any form from a financial crisis to global war:

It might be wise to be considering options for safe haven in the event of something unthinkable occurring with very short notice.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:37 | 2862946 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Musta been a commie drone.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 14:26 | 2863063 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


As pointed out in the section of my April blog dubbed, "The Mystery Of The Shmita & The Septennial Sabbatical Cycle", it's an incredible coincidence that two of the three largest point drops in the Dow struck on the last day of the seven-year Jewish Sabbatical cycle.  In fact, statistically the odds of this occurring are more than a million to one.

So maybe God's trying to make a point with us.  What point could that be?

oh man, you're so close, keep reaching. . .

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:16 | 2863858 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

That analysis is correct.  This is why I expect an extreme low of mass fear at the end of the next Sabbatical year, i.e., Elul 29 in the Hebrew year 5775 which is equivalent to September 13th, 2015:

Hopefully at that historical point this world will be almost rid of its demons...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:47 | 2863489 indygo55
indygo55's picture

And the new moon comes just in time.


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:23 | 2862714 NoControl
NoControl's picture

If it says "Made in China"

Must be American

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:33 | 2862740 BeaverFever
BeaverFever's picture

I admit it. I launched the dreaded and most deadly drone ever witnessed by humankind. This sucker was immense yet perfectly drone formed upon close inspection before appropriate disposal. Of course it was peculiarly formated after partaking in multiple helpings of Mr. Chow's finest Chinese food. How in the heck in flew all the way from Kanuckistan to Israel I'll never know, but then again I swear I could easily throw a snowball and hit Buffallo N.Y. from my back porch when I was younger.


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:15 | 2862822 Jreb
Jreb's picture

American politicians and media are concerned. DOHS and State department have recently realized that Canada - a country roughly 10% larger in land mass than the USA, rests on top their northern border. Fears of being crushed by this Canukistanian giant (and rumours of a possible maple syrup weapons program) have forced the President and Congress to call for economic sanctions angainst their northern neighbour. Both Romney and Obama agree that Americans can no longer live in the shadow of Canadian largesse. Insiders and certain political hawks are proposing increased sanctions and possible military intervention by spring (because winters are so damn cold up there) if Canada does not shrink and immediately turn over the Bare Naked Ladies for immediate questioning. The Canadian government has responded to threats of sanctions and military intervention with their own sanctions. If the US does not immediately issue a formal apology for their aggressive and rude behaviour Canadian officials will immediately and aggressively persue a 2nd request that the Americans formally apologize. If this does not work a third request will be issued. Inside sources in America who object to their current adminstrations behaviour and attitude towards Canada have noted that the current NHL lockout is just another prime example of the CIA attempting to destablaize another foreign government in an attempt to play puppet master politically. Prime Minister Stephen Harper - at a recent press conference - noted that this type of behaviour from a neighbour that "we have had a long lasting relationship and peace with is simply unacceptable" and requested another immediate apology from the US governement - again. He noted that a lack of NHL hockey this winter could lead to massive civil unrest in Canada over the coldest months thus making it vulnerable to outside intervention come spring. US officials denied having any part in the ongoing lockout and stated they had no official plans to invade Canada should the country further destabalize. Any plans to invade Canada at this point were simply rumours at this stage. Representatives from the Obama adminstration stated "The President is confident that Canada will reduce its size by at least 25% over the winter and that it will allow US and UN inspectors in to monitor its ongoing maple syrup program thus negating all rumour of an impending invasion."END


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:52 | 2862875 BeaverFever
BeaverFever's picture

URGENT: Memo From Prime Minister Harper to Choomer O'Blama and Wife Chewbacca

Re: Reduction of Canada's size by at least 25% over the winter

1. Eat poop balls

2. We have devastating human drones even more powerful than Justin Bieber that will reek havoc upon your blubber nation

3. You will all cry like Boner from the sound of these drones' voices

4. We will send you all of our French metrosexual men and you will be forced to listen to them whine

5. We plan to cut off all oil exports to your pitiful nation and give them to China. Your population has no idea that we supply 30% of your energy needs and will weep.

6. Any invasion forces will be met will extreme force of hockey sticks


Sincerely yours,

Zionist Buttplug Harper


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:11 | 2863152 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

When you win, you will be required to annex Cleveland, Buffalo, and Deeetroit.  Take that, rodent.

By the way, when your season is over, could we borrow a few football officials?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:52 | 2862623 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"...... Arabic nation. They are technologically in the stone ages."

This must be sarcasm as well. If it isn't then you need to study up on the Iraq-Iran war from 30 years ago. 

Did you know a guy from NZ built a drone from a DIY pulse jet and a GPS?  Now granted he wasn't an Arab.  /sarc

$5,000, bitchez.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 14:58 | 2863136 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture

Saddam's WMD are being repackaged in drones just waiting to be intercepted/delivered FOB if you can believe Cheney, Dick. Too clever by double speak.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 03:49 | 2864118 Element
Element's picture



"I have zero confidence this drone came from an Arabic nation. They are technologically in the stone ages."

This comment is completely delusional, you obviously have no idea how wrong you are, or else you are just a troll.

Take a look at the platforms and major weapons systems and defense networks in service, and the comms and support infrastructure in Egypt, Saudi, Syria and Turkey militaries. And do a little basic research into how long they have each been fielding the very latest advanced platforms, weapons, sensors and training, that either the West or Russia could provide. That's been going on for about 55 years. Even Persian Iran was operating bleeding-edge western hardware in the 1960s and 1970s!  So it's asinine in the extreme to merely assert these countries have not had access to, and gained competence in the use of modern technologies of war since the late 1950s.

And why is it that people like you have to keep learning the hard way that as with North Korea, and Vietnam, and Afghanistan, that it isn't the dog in the fight, its the fight in the dog that matters. The Afghan war demolished Warsaw Pact morale and ended when it had finished sending the Russian Empire broke, and the same thing has happened to the USA.  It does not take the best-armed country to win, it only requires a home-town advantage and a country that can take advantage of its opponent's unabridged dumb acts, ignorance and hubris.  A country that can force down an RQ-170, intact, is a country you don't want to fool about with--plenty of fight in that dog.

If you doubt their will read this:

That's a country that you may not like or respect but you better not start shit with an old state power that holds such a global outlook and vision-thing. Ignorance does not cut it in strategic warfare.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:14 | 2862569 Middle_Finger_Market
Middle_Finger_Market's picture

My bet; Israel painted 'X's' flag on it, took it off and shot it down. If they Iran, then the drone would have had to fly through numnerous other countires first and would have been caught on radar (unless countries specified are in-competent). Time will tell, but believe me whatever they say will be BS in the aid of one or another conquest. Ciao homies, shit gets ugly in the middle east shortly. 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:59 | 2862671 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

You need to pay more attention.  There are thousands of Iranian Revolutionaly Guard troops in Syria.

Not saying it was them or not, but Iranians are a lot closer than you think.

And, if anyone thinks that Iran is backwards, then need to read more.  As a nation they are literate, highly educated, and creative.  A little misguided, perhaps...but they are not cavemen.  The biggest mistake we and the Israelis can make is underestimating them.  If we do, Obama will look as stupid as he did the other night when one of our carriers is blocking the Straits.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:48 | 2862966 Solarman
Solarman's picture

The Israelis are certainly not underestimating them.  Iran does have a huge achilles heel.  They do not produce enough gasoline, and must import it.  All of their shipping terminals and refineries are e sitting ducks for the Israeli's.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 04:22 | 2864128 Element
Element's picture

And visa-versa, don't forget that.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 14:41 | 2863095 kflobonixs
kflobonixs's picture

Sorry false.  Iranians are backwards.  Nice bunch, sure.  But they are pistachio farmers at best.  They eek by on oil wealth.  They have added nothing to humanity in the last century.  Worthless bunch 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:36 | 2863357 Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

I'm sure Alexander the Great would concur.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:59 | 2862886 oldman
oldman's picture


Sort of thinking along the same line until I remembered

It is easier just to make the whole story up and send it over the wire to the world.

No one will ever ask if it is true or not---in public spaces, that is.

This continual propaganda is sooooo tiring            om

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:18 | 2863114 Jreb
Jreb's picture

*Breaking News*

Sources inside the Israeli government have confirmed that pieces of the "drone" destroyed by its pilots yesterday were in fact pieces of an ultralight plane. A recovered piece of wingspan with what Israeli ground forces describe as some "funny looking rodent with an enlarged tail" painted on it were found scattered across a debris field approximately 100 meters wide directly beneeath where the plane was shot out of the sky by an F-16 Fighting Falcon.

An unidentified source in Israeli intelligence says that moments before the plane was spotted and obliterated Israeli and American listening posts picked up what sounded like the voice of a babbling and stressed Irishwoman coming from said airspace with Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" playing in the background.

In other news: Canadian officials are concerned that Newfoundland Premier Kathy Dunderdale's strange and mysterious dissappearance last night might be linked to a wicked winter storm the Premier may have encountered while enroute to a meeting with other Premiers and the Prime Minister in Ottawa this weekend. Dunderdale was piloting her lightweight kit plane that she loved to fly in her free time and was looking forward to enjoying an evening of classical music with Premier Christy Clark after daily meetings were finished.

A contact in her office made an official statement this morning: "We are extremely concerned about Kathy's current condition. We wish she would have left the untralight at home a she was advised but as you well know it is tough to tell a Newfie anything."

Premier Dunderdale's ultralight plane is described as small, white (hard to see in a snow storm) with a large picture of a beaver painted across it's wing span.

Police spokesman in St. John's said at this stage it appears Dunderdale may have gotten lost in the storm but that they were not ruling out foul play.

The Israeli embassy declined to comment.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 07:08 | 2864201 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Funny, this has almost as much validity as any report from the MSM regarding the Middle East these days.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 04:21 | 2864126 Element
Element's picture



"If they Iran, then the drone would have had to fly through numnerous other countires first and would have been caught on radar (unless countries specified are in-competent)."

It's not so much about incompetence, it's more a case of limited radar coverage that can not see through terrain and ground clutter noise that interferes with radar returns.

The old F-111 was designed to be a 'stealthy' high speed regional deep-penetration strategic bomber. But it's 'stealthiness' only at low level in somewhat uneven terrain surfaces.  It was the combination of a high-performance terrain-following radar married to an advanced auto-pilot that was the key, in conjunction with high speed and endurance, rather than any low-radar signature of low thermal design features.  But you couldn't see it coming or going for the first couple of decades of it's service.  The Russians have only now complete bringing into service an even more advanced but comparable pseudo-stealth deep-penetration multi-role strike aircraft, the Su-32.  These are still valid and effective pseudo-stealth attack tactics that are used by all modern attack aircraft.  Radars are very much able to be defeated with such tactics, especially in conjunction with high speed transit an evasive manoeuvring.

You literally couldn't detect such an aircraft most of the time, and if you did you couldn't get a target lock and launch on it, and if you did launched a SAM, the F-111 could quickly break the tracking lock by placing small rises in terrain and buildings between itself and the command-guidance radar system for the SAM.

The same applies to UAVs and to cruise missiles.

Thing is, now Iran has captured an RQ-170 that can much more quickly provide them development of both such a low-level armed UAV, that can eventually launch a true low-observable cruise missile design, that will also fly in at very low level, and at high speed and will be extremely difficult to detect and to engage.

This UAV shootdown very well may be the real thing.  Hezbollah flew a UAV over Israeli airspace in 2006 during daylight hours.  What is for sure is that any such UAV will be looking to precisely geolocate and pin-point targets for future reference.  It's also a good way to find out where the SAMs and radars are, and what comms systems are being used.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:16 | 2862573 blueRidgeBoy
blueRidgeBoy's picture

only 16 minutes to the first false flag accusation - a new ZH record!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:34 | 2862616 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



It's just all one big damn conspiracy really.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:42 | 2862632 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

Next up is the claim that Obama was drugged by Iranians as the excuse for his sterling performance against Mittens

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:51 | 2862653 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

The Iranians are supplying his choom? That explains a lot.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:55 | 2862662 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

Nah.  More likely it comes from Afghanistan.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:46 | 2862863 hoos bin pharteen
hoos bin pharteen's picture

O's poor performance the other night was Bush's fault.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:44 | 2863366 Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

Wrong he didn't screw up that debate.... Government did.   Now that I think about it I think old Barry is just tired of having his strings pulled and is considering being done as Puppet in Chief as there are still yet many unconquered golf courses he can explore on a Presidential pension.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 14:41 | 2863098 eatapeach
eatapeach's picture

The story itself, at "advanced avionics", sort of says "hey, maybe Israel itself" to me. But then again, I think the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate, that Jane Harman is a traitor, and thst Jonathan Pollard ought rot in prison.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:49 | 2862871 horseman
horseman's picture

It was probably US monitoring the situation and Isreal shot it down so we could not gather our own intelligence.  Just like the USS Liberty incident.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:01 | 2862534 Middle_Finger_Market
Middle_Finger_Market's picture

Drone tank battalions coming soon bitches. 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:09 | 2862552 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


I can envision the Google combat brigade, better yet the Google military.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:28 | 2862605 Middle_Finger_Market
Middle_Finger_Market's picture

They've got robot pack animals; ''big dog'' running around...soon someone says hey lets attach a 50 cal gatling gun to this thing...


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:47 | 2862643 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

And send it to Detroit.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:24 | 2862719 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

There is nothing undestroyed in Detroit.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:45 | 2862760 Middle_Finger_Market
Middle_Finger_Market's picture

Big dog penis attachment; fuck up everything that moves...not sure why that came to mind

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:14 | 2862913 SnobGobbler
SnobGobbler's picture

sure there is, visit one of the many casinos full of bussed in soc.sec "earners".  just don't bum a cigarrette to anyone; they start to swarm.  those casinos are a big part of detroits booming downtown... nevermind, the whole city is a shithole; you're right... 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:23 | 2862717 spentCartridge
spentCartridge's picture

You have fifteen seconds to comply.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:39 | 2862952 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

It would have combat radius of about 50 yards, but I guess that's a long way in small countries like Israel.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:56 | 2862664 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

M1 Abrams tanks fitted with mine rollers or plow are also fitted with Omnitech’s standardized tele-operation remote control system. This allows the crew to move the tank through the mine field without the necessity of the crew being in it as it blows up mines in it's path. The M1 Panther is an M1 Abrams tank (without a turret) fitted with mine rollers specifically designed to clear mine fields remotely.

Remote-Controlled Vehicle Clears Minefields

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:58 | 2862788 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

How depressing..there can't be a successful revolution if TPTB have all this shit at their disposal. My plan of leaving the US is looking better and better by the minute.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:03 | 2862537 JackT
JackT's picture

I'm sure Israel traced the singalage back to its owners.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:05 | 2862542 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Wake up ZH Jew Haters; time to get bashing Israel for a false flag provocation to attack Iran

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:09 | 2862553 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Eat some foreskin.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:11 | 2862560 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Odds are it is a flase flag activity not further someones agenda and keep the GENPOP in a state of perpetual fear.

Fuck dude it's like 75 days until the whole Mayan end of the world thing.

Why let that shit go to waste working on establishing a deep and meaningful peace.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:57 | 2862667 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

Actually, I saw a scientific article that pointed out a "minor addition error in column 3" that put the date at 2015 instead of 2012.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:33 | 2862614 giggler123
giggler123's picture

... well if the mud sticks, it's Israeli ...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:09 | 2862809 Bob
Bob's picture

A popular (but usually muted) opinion of Israel on the Left:

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:36 | 2862621 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

That must be sarcasm.

Everyone here knows the difference between "Jews" and "Zionists."

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:53 | 2862648 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Yeah ~ most jews are so remarkably silent about the criminal behavioral aspect of Zionists I doubt they even know they exist... I think Spielberg needs to come up with a few more story lines to tell the Holocaust story because I'm tired of being inundated every year with Hollywood movies about the Holodomor...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:59 | 2862674 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

Right.  And you, as the good American you are, are speaking out and holding rallies against drone kills of civilians and corruption in the financial sector.  Right?  Oh.  Maybe that could be interpreted as being "remarkably silent about the criminal behavior aspect of the US".  

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:11 | 2862692 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Actually ~ through peaceful protest, I'm regularly vocal about what you describe (which, I suppose, makes me a terrorist according to the alphabet soup agencies)...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:08 | 2862551 LULZBank
LULZBank's picture

Would it make it a violation if no one "officially" admits responsibility, like CIA?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:12 | 2862562 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture



The Vela Incident (sometimes referred to as the South Atlantic Flash) was an unidentified "double flash" of light that was detected by an American Vela Hotel satellite on September 22, 1979 near the Prince Edward Islands or Antarctica. There is uncertainty as to the true nature of the incident though it is widely believed to have been the result of a nuclear detonation.

While a "double flash" signal is characteristic of a nuclear weapons test, the signal might have been a spurious electronic signal that was generated by an aging detector in an old satellite or a meteoroid or comet hitting the Vela satellite. No corroboration of an explosion, such as the presence of nuclear byproducts in the air, was ever publicly acknowledged, even though there were numerous passes in the area by U.S. Air Force planes that were specifically designed to detect airborne radioactive dust. Other examiners of the data, including the Defense Intelligence Agency, the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory, and defense contractors, have come to the conclusion that the flash was a result of a nuclear detonation.[1][2][3] Much of the information relating to the event remains classified.

The most common theory among those who believe that the flash was of nuclear origins was that it the result of an Israeli nuclear test.[4][5][6] The topic remains highly disputed today.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:10 | 2862556 toady
toady's picture

The Iranians/Chinese should have been able to replicate the one they shot down last year by now.

It probably was the US though. They keep tabs on everyone now.

'Sorry, we were just flying over on our way to Syria'

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:33 | 2862741 spentCartridge
spentCartridge's picture

Maybe it was flown by an 'uncompromised' USAF faction that are mapping out Israeli military assets for destruction?


You know, the Drake thing ... 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:01 | 2862795 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

We're never going to admit it if it was us.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:00 | 2862889 toady
toady's picture

That's what my last line was about. At the most, if pushed into a corner, they'll say it was a mistake while operating in Syria or Iraq.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:10 | 2862557 valkir
valkir's picture

Something went wrong.It is not october 15 yet.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:49 | 2862649 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Yeah but Thanksgiving is a good date to start trouble. Lots of people at home in family, busy... just like Chritmas.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:15 | 2862567 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Was it launched from Egypt??

In other news...

Turkish military deployment continued at the Syrian border.

Military vehicles from the Fifth Armored Brigade Command Center in Gaziantep province were dispatched to the Oncupinar region at the Turkish-Syrian border.

A large number of military personnel has also been sent to the Oncupinar region.

Also... 3 shells landed in Southern Turkey in 3 different incidents for the 4th day in a row...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:18 | 2862582 ptoemmes
Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:21 | 2862584 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Turkey deploys military vehicles along border with Syria

Military vehicles of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) were deployed in southeastern Turkey along the border with Syria on Saturday, the semi-official Aanatolia news agency reported.

The vehicles sent to Suruc town of the southeastern Sanliurfa province included a large number of tanks and missile defense systems, according to the report.

Unconfirmed :

4 Turks killed in lasted attack, Army on red alert #syria #turkey

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:20 | 2862586 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

It was just as possible it is a USA drone.

The Zionists are always spying on USA.

We return the favor.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:24 | 2862601 toady
toady's picture

You really are driving me crazy. I just posted basically the same thing! It's like you're in my head...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:34 | 2862617 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Sorry, I did not see your post or I would have Up Arrowed it.

However, it seems we both beleive the Israelis need to be surveilled.

Too many USA citizen persons think anything the Israeli govt. does is great.

It is not that simple.

 They get TONS of US Military support, gratis.  We have every right to keep an eye on them.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:07 | 2862685 toady
toady's picture

I wasn't looking for an apology, I'm just amazed at how often I see your comments are similar, if not identical to mine. It's just weird!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:21 | 2863193 Coast Watcher
Coast Watcher's picture

Separated at birth?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:50 | 2862652 Gashole
Gashole's picture

Everybody spies on everybody. 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:22 | 2862591 squexx
squexx's picture

Too bad it wasn't packing about 5 megatons on it! The sooner Israel is destroyed, the better!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:23 | 2862595 Gashole
Gashole's picture

That's why Israel needs hundreds of nukes.  If Israel suffers another holocaust there will be a lot of company in the fire.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:35 | 2862618 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

"If Israel suffers another holocaust . . . . "

Israel never suffered a holocaust.

Neither did the Jews:

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:48 | 2862647 Gashole
Gashole's picture

 One of my grandparents was the sole survivor of his family. 

Fucks like you hope for a second holocaust while denying the first.  

Never Again means never again.  



Sat, 10/06/2012 - 10:54 | 2862660 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Where's all the indignation about the Holodomor?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:02 | 2862678 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

You need a better PR company.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:01 | 2862672 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

I at least don't question the first one. Evidence is clear enough, my father fought in Europe he knew what went on.

Anyways, denial of the holocaust is limited to those who will not examine the evidence.

I appreaciate that you acknowledge that Israel plans to hold many responsible should the state of Isreal suffer defeat and destruction in a war. Not just those who did it, like say Iran got a few nukes and used them, then Israeli subs unload all their nukes on Iran for total destruction. I can relate to that. But in all likelyhood, Israel will not stop there, they will go after innocent nations. Everywhere from Egypt to London. The hundreds of nukes are useless without targets. So I believe they are targeted. There is evidence Israel plans to take out everything in the Mid East and many mjaor East and West European cities. I expect that move is revenge for 1939-45. Lots of Europeans, not just Germans , helped carry out the holocaust.

Your thoughts "Gashole"?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:40 | 2862750's picture

It is possible to take a true story and embellish it, no?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:36 | 2862854 Gashole
Gashole's picture

I have no idea what their plans are and what they would they would actually do.  I  agree that it is in Israel's interest for the world to believe that this is possible. They might then give actually give a shit if Jews were being slaughtered again, unlike in the past.

Another reason to have hundreds of nukes is that an atomic arsenal is obviously a target in a preemptive strike.  It is called redundancy.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:46 | 2862963 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


I  agree that it is in Israel's interest for the world to believe that this is possible.

okay.  and who or what is "Israel"?  if you can define this concept for yourself, and tell all here what your definition is, we might better understand what you're defending. 

helps with the argument(s).

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:03 | 2862897 hoos bin pharteen
hoos bin pharteen's picture

100's of nukes are there because deterrent must be fully survivable.  The old saying goes that "having just one nuke makes you a target."

The multiple increases a lot when you throw in calculations of how many you'd need to effectively eviscerate an enemy military-industrial complex, as well as the variety of types of warheads that would be needed for different missions.

Israel's program was also created with the assumption that needed a deterrent against the USSR.  After the near-intervention by the USSR in Egypt during the Yom Kippur War, they concluded that they needed missiles that could reach into the USSR.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:17 | 2862918 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

"Anyways, denial of the holocaust is limited to those who will not examine the evidence."

Here's some evidence:

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:00 | 2862676 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

My father has told me the story of when his division in WWII helped liberate Dachau including how the disgust about what they found led to the demise of the SS guards when they tried to 'escape'. According to the joker above I should conclude Dad is part of the misinformation plot. I guess he was pretty good at faking emotions when he told the story because I bought it as true.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:10 | 2862686 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Can you believe those German guards were stupid enough to stay at their posts until the end?  Even women guards stayed on and were there in uniform when allied forces arrived. Like you say, many were killed on the spot. Other arrested and later hung.

Germans are loyal to their jobs, even if it is mass murder. Give a german a paycheck and a uniform and they will do anything. Sorry, Germans, but it IS true.

I worked with a guy many years ago who had a simliar experience. Guards were switching into civilian clothes and trying to slip away. They caught a few and the men asked "should we hold them as prisoners?" The sergeant said "Bullshit!" and shot them all himself.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:27 | 2862726 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

Did your father tell you about Eienhower's death camps?

How about Eisenhower's Starvation Order?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:35 | 2862745 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Yes, I know about that. I also know a lady whose father was captured by Red Army at Stalingard. He survived to make it home, out of some 90K only a few thousand made it home. He got by by quikly learning Russian and making friends with Russian guards using his new language skills. He eventually ended up in a Moscow POW work detail that laid new cobble stones on Red Square. He returned to Germany so fluent in Russian that he became a university lecturer in that subject and a translator for German intelligence during the cold war. Adapt and survive. That was how he got home.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:58 | 2862991 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

Those bodies your father saw at Dachau died from hunger and disease, I wouldn't think that they were a top priority while German civilians were also starving, and being firebombed at the same time.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:31 | 2863317 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

The Holocaust was real, it was deliberate, and it was actually WORSE than the history books portray.  Victims were burned alive in the ovens as sacrifices to Moloch.  Some actually survived and were dumped into the pits charred and writhing.

The five camps with the bulk of the body count were laid out as temples.  For example, Auchwitz resembles the temple complex at Baalbek, home of Moloch.  The five main camps were positioned in very specific, sometimes difficult-to-build places along ley lines which formed a giant star.  The ley lines were meant to channel the energy of the sacrificial victims to major occult centers such as the Vatican. 

This was all organized by Himmler, a notorious occultist, with help from Jesuits and Satanists in the Vatican.  They apparently believed that Moloch would speak through the last screams of his burning victims and give some insight about how to forestall the prophecy of St. Malachy and the last Pope.  The occultists are trying to avoid being eaten by their own gods!

Hmm, I wonder which of the 800 FEMA camps line up in a giant pentagram?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:03 | 2863356 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

My man is smoking some strong weed...maybe laced with a little PCP too...

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:10 | 2862690 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

"One of my grandparents was the sole survivor of his family."

My condolences. Lots of families were wiped out during WWII . . . . and every war since.  War is a horrible thing. Why don't you clamor for peace instead.

"Fucks like you"

According to the Talmud that's everyone who isn't a Jew, right?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:19 | 2862707 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'm constantly amazed by those who deny historical fact.

The Final Solution was a reality carried out by racial psychopaths known as nazis.

I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It's one of those things that is easily said: 'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it, hah, a small matter.' [...] But of all those who talk this way, none had observed it, none had endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there or when 1,000 are lined up. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person - with exceptions due to human weaknesses - had made us tough. This is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned. [...] We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.- Himmler Oct 4 1943 Posen Speech

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:31 | 2862736 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

One quote from a sociopath establishes historical fact?

nmewn, I'm disappointed.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:41 | 2862755 nmewn
nmewn's picture

How many does it take?

Maybe some Reinhard Heydrich quotes or fact checking the SS-TV would relieve you of your disappointment.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:49 | 2862770 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

"How many does it take?"

Every fact accumulated against any given mythology is insufficient to dissuade true believers in that mythology.

When some get religion there is no turning back.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:53 | 2862783 nmewn
nmewn's picture

What purpose did the SS-Einsatzgruppen serve as a "battle formation" brainiac?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 05:30 | 2864142 Element
Element's picture


In war invaders and attackers are killed by all sides.  As far as the Russian troops were concerned the killing (cutting throats, not using bullets) of disarmed and surrendered German prisoners of war was par-for-the-course, it was an informal policy.  And for the German side the killing of an unarmed non-integrative Jewish fifth-column 'attacker' and 'invader' was also par-for-the-course.

As far as the Germans were concerned they were quite convinced they had been attacked and invaded because their parliament and political parties were almost all filled by Jews, 99% of all shops in Germany were owned by Jews, same for real estate, the banks, and all of the 'German' media were Jewish, also. Plus the Jews refused to inter marry and interbreed with mere Germans.  It was extremely offensive and the resentment grew over generations.  The Nazis just finally let it take it's course.  People and countries assisted the Nazis because they WANTED to.  It is because they also hated the Jew's guts, for the same reasons, and wanted them exported, or else killed.

Hardly surprising they felt that way and hardly surprising that the rest of Europe and most of north America also felt the same way, prior to WWII in Europe, because that's what had occurred almost everywhere else as well.  In Russia as well.  It was not a good idea to do that.  But have the zionists in particular done anything differently since?  This is why we have a guy up the thread, arguing to have the planet think that Israel will nuke planet Earth, if anyone ever dares to try and similarly break-up the invasive zionist attack, in so many countries on Earth, today.

Denying that this is why they were attacked, before and during WWII, is likewise as demented as denying that they were attacked at all.

Can we all agree on that basic principle?

And also observe that these very same factors and resentments are fully in play again today, and for the very same causes?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 09:17 | 2864520 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Denying that this is why they were attacked, before and during WWII, is likewise as demented as denying that they were attacked at all.

Can we all agree on that basic principle?"

I'm well aware of the prejudices against the Jews, some called for, some, not so much. Not sure about the 99% figure you cite but I'll accept it for the sake of argument.

Its really no different than orientals and asians opening up shops in black areas is it? There is an element within the black community that would like to kill everyone of them and burn their businesses down. It still doesn't justify that action and it is an evil manipulation of those in power to play on ones unfortunate circumstance to blame them for ones own status in life.

But it didn't stop "with just the Jews"...this fact is always glossed over. Gypsies, homosexuals or any other real or percieved enemy of the nazi state was fair game once the evil is unleashed. Can't we call it what it was...state sponsored pure evil carried out with snappy uniforms, martial music and mind numbing propaganda?

A very good friend of mine (much older and now deceased) was a WWII vet. He despised the yids (as he called them) because of what they did to him in business. He owned a plumbing business and he said they grouped together (pooled their money) and had one of "their" businesses undercut his pricing with the sole purpose of driving him out of business...and once that was done...they could raise their prices.

Clearly wrong, but they had that advantage (and used it) because of their social structure as opposed to ours which is more independent and individualistic. Richard had no reason to lie about it, I believed him.

Now, what I've been doing here is not so much a defense of Jews and their habits/practices. It has been to try and make people look at themselves and the depths they will sink to, the delusions they will allow themselves to believe, right up to denying, verifiable, historical facts.

And I'm well aware of the gypsy practice of riding through back alleys looking for open garage doors and then sending someone to knock on the front door...while the homeowner is distracted out front...the others are loading up the homeowners possessions out back. I just prefer to take them out one by one myself...instead of authorizing roving bands of SS-Einsatzgruppen to do it for me ;-)

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 00:37 | 2866799 Element
Element's picture



"... Now, what I've been doing here is not so much a defense of Jews and their habits/practices. It has been to try and make people look at themselves and the depths they will sink to, the delusions they will allow themselves to believe, right up to denying, verifiable, historical facts. ..."


Fair enough, just checking where you were going with this stuff.  I'm sure your friend Richard is going to harbor resentment and spread it around, and that's how it goes;

action > reaction > inaction

A conservative minority tribal 'religious' group that absolutely will not integrate under any circumstances, that remains racially oriented, and rejects even their 'converts' (they use infiltration tactics every day so why would they trust a mere convert?), due to lineages of all things, is a group that is always going to end up murdered in the end.

It's not as if they have not been warned and given very explicit examples of what comes of it.  The problem is this conservative subset that does these things gives the rest of the diaspora the same bad name, and they won't police themselves to stop these radicals controlling the core of their community and synagogues.  We and also they assert they are a religion, not a race, and we require that Islamic people keep their communities and mosques free of all such radicalism but somehow the Zionist and Jewish conservative largely gets a free pass?  There is a reason for that, a Jewish-controlled global MSM and Movie industry propaganda machine.

It may be primarily Zionism responsible, since the 1880s or so, but before this is was in fact the behavior of conservative Jewishness itself that was leading to these same results.  It is a Jewish characteristic and culture involved, historically, that leads to this.  It's just for the past century this element has been concentrated into the Zionist agenda and movement.  But if Zionism were not a factor, they would still be doing what they do, just as a Gipsy does what their culture does.  One group picks you pock, the other picks your bank account, one does it in your face in a few minutes, the other does it on the sly over decades.

So can you really honestly and logically 'blame' or castigate people for reacting to this so strongly, or failing to see their own actions as the equal and related problem.  Is this person ('victim') leaving the garage door open to blame for what the riff-raff did to them?  Or for the victims of such acts to support each other in community social groups that become politicized, so that the minority politician who says, hey, were all sick of these people, support me because I'll clean them out for good.

Of course this thus angry and resentful people (who are a minority) are going to then support a more precipitous solution to an enduring problem they see as having no other real systemic constitutional deterrent or solution, and will want to show and convince others to understand why it matters to change this, and why conventional 'solutions' via criminal courts have failed and will not be able to resolve the problem of such networks of opportunistic criminal infiltrators and non-integrators.

So eventually the Nazis just became very direct about it and made them wear a Star of David and painted these on all their shops and businesses, so that the majority could then see who was running and owning everything.  that way they won the majority over, because then it was undeniable that a non-integrative fifth-column had taken over the country.  

And that realization occurred all across Europe, not just in Germany, even in the UK and USA,  There really wasn't much mainstream resistance once this reality was staring them in the face.  So it is quite incorrect to assert or maintain that propaganda or jackbooted enforcer thugs alone were the reason why people became willing to entertain far more radical solutions to this then overtly evident "Jewish Problem".

When I analyze human decisions and actions, firstly I presume the people making those decisions and actions are not ill-informed fools and idiots.  That there is method to their apparent madness, and in my experience this is always true.  

From that perspective, working out why they really did something, is what leads you to understand the underlaying situation much more clearly.  

Hollywood holocaust movies like "Sobibor" were deliberately constructed to bewilder people and leave them coming away from it in shock and thinking that there was no sense at all to what the Germans had done there, that they were just evil bastards, who had selected a convenient minority scape goat to bully to final murder.  Which was the effect it initially had on me, and I read a lot of books and biographies on the holocaust after that, still came up with the same one sided story every time.  No one ever offered any real investigation into why it happened, which was clearly the most important lesson to learn from it.  So I started to dig into it from non-mainstream directions, plus I observed the objectionable cultural attitudes I saw in my own interactions with Zionist conservative Jews, and my own resentment of their routine bastardry.  So I eventually released that maybe they were doing the same things in Europe and had thoroughly pissed off everyone by it, and then the understanding of what happened suddenly made perfect sense.  So it them became a matter of simply reading the "hate literature" of the pre-war era, and there it all was, the reasons why people were so angry at opportunistic fifth-column interlopers and their systemic theft, political and social undermining and impoverishment of the majority.

 i.e. what had really made the majority of Germans, and in fact, all of Axis occupied Europe, to willingly take radical action against the Jews, Gipsies and 'moral' criminals like homos, that were all regarded as an attack on the very fabric of European society and culture.

The whole of such a movie is to steer us away from looking for the other side of the story, of what produced this German behavior, or from realizing it was based on a rational assessment of the situation that concluded a radical solution was the only one that was going to rid Germany, and in fact all of Europe of this fifth column.  

Anyone who simply takes or argues from the typical 'historical' Sobibor type version of events, and ignores the prior existing factors in the "hate literature" of the inter-war period, is simply not being honest, and is not interested in understanding or avoiding it occurring again, and is not someone I will ever listen to much or take seriously as an intelligent person.  

It simply would not be right to do so, no matter who they are.

But the Zionist conservative Jews and have indeed returned for another round in Europe, and are in fact doing the very same things once again.   The pattern is a bit different, but the core behavior and attitudes and actions are not.  And this is why I regard the holocaust as being in 'remission', because until that behavior is gone, the holocaust will never be over.

History shows that these minorities never rein themselves in, and it always culminates in amass slaughter of them.  I see little to no reason so far to expect a different outcome this time.  I'm fairly confident we will see the same things recurring, only this time Israel and the US will factor most highly in those events.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:56 | 2862784 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Not one quote from one person. As I posted above the eye witness story I've heard of the liberation corresponds very closely to the "liberation" section of the wiki entry . I promise you that my 88yo computer illiterate dad did not read the wiki post to get his facts straight before he told his story. Get over it. You can quibble about the numbers, about responsibility and certainly about any relevance this has to current Israeli policy, but the holocaust DID happen.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:11 | 2862816 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I've spoken to WWII vets in the past as did happen, they knew it was going on even as they advanced from those they liberated and they treated the death head SS (wherever they found them hiding) with all the compassion they deserved.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:05 | 2862898 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

with respect DeadFred, is it not possible that most soldiers stick to the storyline of their deployment?  even now, with truths available to anyone willing to search the internet for them, do soldiers on all sides not stick to the story of their owners?  waving nationstate flags as if they had meaning?

if someone "witnessed" something that was framed from a certain perspective, particularly something that in and of itself was horrifically stressful, would it be beyond imagination to realise most soldiers, trained to not think, but obey, would go with the accepted storyline?  particularly if "liberating survivors" gave them medals and national honour?  and subsequent history was taught from a certain lone perspective, including all media such as Hollywood movies supporting this perspective?

people.  look at what is currently happening in the world, and who believes what "side" of each story - it's right in front of our eyes, but one needs to get over the MIND FUCK first.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:40 | 2863362 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

That Himmler speech translation has been thoroughly discredited.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 00:25 | 2863689 nmewn
nmewn's picture

By who, anti-semites?

Why didn't anyone comment on my pointing out Einsatzgruppen and >>>what its purpose was?<<<

Now, go ask your masters to scratch their national socialist chins, stare at the ceiling a little more and come back with a plausible explanation to distinguish between the two.


(Still tapping my fingers impatiently here on this one) none of you supposed "truthers" want to address what Einsatzgruppen was and how it related to a National Socialist policy of extermination of human beings?

And tell me again why I should care about you why I find you as the unremarkable examples of human beings that you are?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:54 | 2862881 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


One of my grandparents was the sole survivor of his family.

then don't you owe your "family" the honour of seeking out the truth?  instead of running about perpetuating lies that all but guarantee the same cycle happening again, and again, as history proves?

most likely you're trollin' given your respect-full troll name, in which case. . . f off mega-phoney.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:03 | 2862680 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

Absolute bullshit.  I had a grandparent that went into Auschwitz, and I've been there myself.  I suggest that you visit the place before spouting absolute bullshit like this. 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:18 | 2862701 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

"Absolute bullshit. . . . . I've been there myself."

No one denies the existence of Auschwitz. No one denies Jews didn't die - along with every other religion. It's the Stephen Spielberg/MSM mythologized version of the holocaust that's complete bullshit.

"I've been there myself."

That's not really considered empirical research.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 13:07 | 2862904 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

everyone who has "been there" themselves takes their mind's perspective with them, including all history they've been taught to believe in.

keep dogging the truth Red Heeler, nip the ankles!

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:04 | 2862800 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

Ahmadinejad is that you?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:15 | 2862697 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"If Israel suffers another holocaust there will be a lot of company in the fire."

In a September 2003 interview in Elsevier, a Dutch weekly, [..] [Martin] van Creveld [ Israeli military historian and theorist.] stated:

"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force…. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."

Did the Israeli government ever disavow Mr. vanCreveld's comments?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:32 | 2862739 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'm sorry, I missed where he was speaking on the behalf of or with the authority of...the Israeli government which would then lend itself to apologize...or not.

Could you point me to his government credentials?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:53 | 2862779 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Frankly, I anticipated the question.  I don't think an American professor could make similar comments and escape government censure.

"Professor vanCreveld is currently employed by Tel Aviv University.  Tel-Aviv University is a public university located in Ramat Aviv, Tel Aviv, Israel.  With nearly 30,000 students, TAU is Israel's largest university."

Part of Professor vanCreveld's "CV":

"Prof. Martin vanCreveld, formerly of the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, is one of the world's leading experts on military history and strategy. He is the author of twenty books on these subjects, the most important of which are Supplying War (1977), Command in War (1985), Technology and War (1989), The Transformation of War (1991) and The Evolution of War (2007); these books have now been translated into twenty languages. He has also consulted to several governments and appeared on hundreds of TV and radio shows as well as writing for hundreds of newspapers throughout the world."


Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:02 | 2862797 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So he never spoke in the capacity of a government official as I suspected.

"I don't think an American professor could make similar comments and escape government censure."

Bill Ayers did a little more than that...and got a "promotion" to being a tenured American professor ;-)

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:11 | 2862817 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Professor vanCreveld is a government employee.  He makes regular rounds of the media espousing his views.  He is a member of and is supported by the political class.  It isn't necessary for him to be a member of the regime for the regime to notice his comments and act.

If an American professor denied the Holocaust, he'd be immediately censured and fired.  Rightfully so. Professor vanCreveld proposes a much larger holocaust and ..... nothing.

As for Bill Ayers, why don't you fill us all in.  Like we haven't heard it already.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:26 | 2862838 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You say...

"Professor vanCreveld is a government employee."

Then you say he is not... 

"He makes regular rounds of the media espousing his views. He is a member of and is supported by the political class. It isn't necessary for him to be a member of the regime for the regime to notice his comments and act."

If he is not employed by the government he is not speaking for any government, only himself.

So, again, why should the government apologize for anything he says?...he is not their employee in any capacity. It would be a little different if he were prime minister or even an ambassador making pronouncements on policy...but he is neither.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 14:08 | 2863019 knukles
knukles's picture

+ bazillion. 

Go for it nmewn

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 14:59 | 2863139 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Are you part of the "peanut gallery"?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:37 | 2863241 knukles
knukles's picture

Just a casual observer of the human condition.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 16:35 | 2863232 psychobilly
psychobilly's picture

"Me too" says knuckles.

Alan Hart, interviewing for BBC's Panorama program: "Prime Minister, I want to be sure I understand what you’re saying ... You are saying that if ever Israel was in danger of being defeated on the battlefield, it would be prepared to take the region and even the whole world down with it?"

Golda Meir: "Yes, that's exactly what I am saying."

Are hasbarats now denying the existence of Israel's crazed "Samson Option"?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 14:58 | 2863138 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

You clearly do not know how the world works and I have neither the time nor inclination to explain it to you.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:34 | 2863227 Just Ice
Just Ice's picture

I think it would be silly for every government to set about to respond or take an official position as to something every blowhard that comes along espouses.  Even if they're a known personality within that country.  It was utterly ridiculous in my view when US government spoke out to condemn the act of some preacher in Florida burning a Koran.  The guy performed a non-criminal act to get his 15 minutes of fame.  Government running out to add their two cents only enhanced his spotlight.  Stupid.  And who cares what some pop, rap or other hollywood star or pundit or professor says or thinks to the extent it needs to be addressed "officially"?  Really.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:02 | 2863392 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Professor vanCreveld is not this: "every blowhard that comes along " 

That's like says von Clausewitz or Sun-Tzu is a blowhard.

What the nmewns of this world don't understand is that the "Sampson option" will be quite indiscriminate.  It would also kill jews and quite possibly, nmewn.  Oh well.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 17:17 | 2863446 Just Ice
Just Ice's picture

You can iconize him.  I wouldn't.  If Donald Rumsfield, Colin Powell, General Schwartzkoff, some other past military personality wrote a book and made the talk show rounds in the US and said some blah, blah about US should/would/could do such and such under some theoretical circumstance, who cares?  It would not make a twit of difference other than to get people who disagreed and deemed their opinion important flustered or riled up.  Do you really think what vanCreveld says theoretically Israel would do if it was attacked makes any difference?  What he says will not change what Israel will actually do under the circumstance with which it is actually confronted at the time.  It is not his decision.  As far as I know he is just another propagandist serving his own agenda.  Since I think for myself, I don't need Big Brudder rushing out to confirm or distance itself from some blowhard's blathering as an official position to give me a sense of comfort.  Official positions don't necessarily mean squat anyway.  Governments lie.  Governments sponsor propaganda.             

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:10 | 2863536 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"You can iconize him.  I wouldn't."

What does the US Army think?

From Wikipedia.

"The significance of the 1991 book The Transformation of War [by Professor vanCreveld] is attested to by the fact that until the middle of 2008, it was included on the list of required reading for United States Army officers, and (with Sun Tzu and Clausewitz) the third non-American entry on the list.  Van Creveld's Supplying War: Logistics from Wallenstein to Patton is now included on the list as well."

Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, vanCreveld.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 03:33 | 2864113 Just Ice
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Wow!  Required reading by the magnifique!  Not.  Do you know for a fact his books are not added to the list as a know, good old fashioned help him or his publisher out?   I'm not saying they were and I'm sure he's quite sharp in his subject matter. I simply do not think having a book on the Army's required reading list gives him any greater stature, or makes his opinion any more deserving of weight, to the extent of commanding the emotion and wringing of hands his statements have evidently caused you and others.  Further, that he wrote a book the Army deemed useful info for its officers is wholly irrelevant to the issue of whether people should have any expectation for a government to step up to the plate to either refute/rebuke or give affirmation to any citizen's opinion, particularly when that citizen is not in charge of the decision to be made or action that will be taken.  Government should butt out and mind its own business.

You know recently with the Colorado movie theater massacre, there was a big press conference where I saw one local law enforcement official give relevant factual information to a public seeking same and the rest a bunch of politicians not serving any useful government function but instead having their two cents to chime in on the matter because it presented a limelight opportunity for them to insert themselves in a situation that was the focus of a lot of cameras and attention.  Who cared what a bunch of uninvolved politicians thought?  Really.

vanCreveld gets media attention, creates controversy and sells books.  Al Sharpton got media attention, created controversy and landed a talk show.  There are apparently people who get all up in arms over what Paris Hilton thinks, says and does too.

Folks should exercise less emotionalism in deciding what matters and what's much ado over nothing important.  How many things can one look back at that matter not at all today but were such a big friggin deal at the time?

And this is the last of my time I'll waste on this thread since there are apparently several people who think (the Israeli) government should do something about people's speech, (or at least vanCreveld's).  They're wrong, down arrows notwithstanding.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 07:32 | 2864217 Bicycle Repairman
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"Do you know for a fact his books are not added to the list as a know, good old fashioned help him or his publisher out? "

Interesting theory.  Probably applies to Sun Tzu and vonClausewitz's publishers as well.



Sun, 10/07/2012 - 05:44 | 2864155 Element
Element's picture



"... It is not his decision.  As far as I know he is just another propagandist serving his own agenda.  Since I think for myself, I don't need Big Brudder rushing out to confirm or distance itself from some blowhard's blathering as an official position to give me a sense of comfort.  Official positions don't necessarily mean squat anyway.  Governments lie.  Governments sponsor propaganda. ..."


Indeed, no one and no plan can show you waht will really happen when a country is facing certain strategic obliteration.  The Imperial Japanese had rejected unconditional surrender point blank, saying it could never be agreed to, but it largely was.

Same can happen to Israel. It may seem "unthinkable", but that doesn't mean it won't happen, when confronted with the reality of certain destruction.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 18:33 | 2863570 nmewn
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You act as though Mutually Assured Destruction was/is the sole defense policy of Israel. It was also the policy of the USSR and the USA during the Cold War.

psychohillbilly has the better argument with the Golda Meir quote...however, having it delivered (without link for context or further clarification) by the rabidly anti-Israel, nano-thermite throwing, Mossad transpondering, conspiratorialist Alan Hart leaves a little to be desired on my jounalistic integrity scale.

Israel is a small country, surrounded by mostly hostile countries, which has been attacked from the very moment of its conception as a state, theres not a lot of margin for error in its defense.

If I were its enemy (and I am clearly not) I wouldn't poke it with a stick so might get bit.

But I am trying to understand why so many hate it with such a passion...from neo-nazi Holocaust deniers, to atheists, to Islamists, to truthers...its quite a selective group in my opinion ;-)

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 20:23 | 2863707 Bob
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Here's a quick little summary from the left:

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:23 | 2863878 nmewn
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I'm well aware of the lefts perspective...its just that it has blinders on in my opinion...and citing a former CIA employee is hardly where we would need to start...but from yours:

"Most recently, former President Moshe Katsav was convicted of rape..."

Moshe Katsav is culturally Iranian by family, this is not to say, culturally, a western French Jew or a British Jew cannot succumb to using their power to criminal purpose.

Or not a Jew at the case of Clinton here, he did the same things and was defended by the left...this cannot be denied. Thats not my cross to bear...that is the lefts.

"The most recent outrage is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s direct interference in U.S. domestic politics through his appearance in a television ad appearing in Florida that serves as an endorsement of Republican candidate Mitt Romney."

And Qadaffi, Chavez etc called Obama "ä brother". These are tyrants & despots are they not? Maybe you have a different desciptor?

I stopped wasn't worth continuing.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 22:31 | 2863873 psychobilly
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"psychohillbilly has the better argument with the Golda Meir quote...however, having it delivered (without link for context or further clarification) by the rabidly anti-Israel, nano-thermite throwing, Mossad transpondering, conspiratorialist Alan Hart leaves a little to be desired on my jounalistic integrity scale."

As if your opinion about what constitutes journalistic integrity matters. Clearly, it counts for little.

Let me get this straight:  You want a link to an April 1971 television broadcast and Golda Meir's "exact" assertion leaving no doubt about what she meant requires further clarification?  lol.  You really are a weasel.

"But I am trying to understand why so many hate it with such a passion...from neo-nazi Holocaust deniers, to atheists, to Islamists, to truthers...its quite a selective group in my opinion"

Squid ink.  Typical, dishonest hasbarat.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 00:05 | 2863976 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"You want a link to an April 1971 television broadcast and Golda Meir's "exact" assertion leaving no doubt about what she meant requires further clarification?"

Its your assertion and quote, not mine!!!

You provided the quote as some sort of evidence. Give me the link...clear the air.

Problem? ;-)


What do think about "lefty Bob" providing a CIA "ëmployee" perspective to this? Your mind melting yet?

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:29 | 2863953 Uncle Remus
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"But I am trying to understand why so many hate it with such a passion"

Of course you are.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 23:54 | 2863980 nmewn
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Don't fuck with me...I was...but now my focus is narrowing.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 05:47 | 2864160 Element
Element's picture



"But I am trying to understand why so many hate it with such a passion..."


Have you considered it's a reaction to Isreali zionist behaviour?  Because if you haven't, then yes, you would struggle to figure it out, as you would only be looking at one side of the story.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 09:47 | 2864546 nmewn
nmewn's picture

One side of the story...well there ya go, good point.

Why is it that so few Americans (or even the supposed, "enlightened european") do not understand the enemies of Israel more clearly? Where the west values truth above all else in public discourse, an Islamist does not, when speaking with an infidel.

Its called Taqiyya.

How does "an infidel" even begin to communicate or understand the concerns of, the problems of, the issues of...someone who could very well be lying to them (or at least not telling the whole truth)?

I know I can't.

And well before there was even a state called Israel, who was it that allied himself with Hitler? It was none other than the Grand Mufti, Haj Amin al-Husseini wasn't it?

The politics, intrigue and deception of the ME will not be solved on the pages of ZH...but we should at least be forewarned of BOTH sides motives and tactics.

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 15:57 | 2863280 psychobilly
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Sat, 10/06/2012 - 11:53 | 2862782's picture

I can give you the reverse: van Creveld citing a former government official to explain his position.


"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under." 

Sat, 10/06/2012 - 12:04 | 2862801 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The quote from Moshe Dayan is...'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.'

And then Dayan's quote ENDS...correct?

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