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Paris Luxury Apartment Prices Slide As French "1%"ers Dump Real Estate To Avoid Soaring Taxes

Tyler Durden's picture


Back in July, when the news of the French foray into the "fairness doctrine" hit, and we learned of Hollande's plan to tax all those making over €1 million at a 75% tax rate, we said that "we are rotating our secular long thesis away from Belgian caterers and into tax offshoring advisors, now that nobody in the 1% will pay any taxes ever again." We should have also added that we are buying all the available long-dated call options in French real estate firms, with the imminent surge in luxury real estate dumping, once the French "1%" decide they want nothing to do with a regime that is hell bent on confiscating 75% of their annual cash flow at first, and slowly moving toward pocketing the balance of their assets (remember what we said in September 2011: that 30% global tax on all financial assets in a New Normal insolvent, and wealth redistributive world, is inevitable, and it is coming). Sure enough, the wholesale dump of luxury properties has now begun.

AFP writes: "A flood of top-end properties are hitting the market as businessmen seek to leave France before stiff tax hikes hit, real estate agents and financial advisors say. "It's nearly a general panic. Some 400 to 500 residences worth more than one million euros ($1.3 million) have come onto the Paris market," said managers at Daniel Feau, a real-estate broker that specialises in high-end property." But that would mean that in the New Normal real estate is once again merely a credit-bubble dependent, flippable asset: not a long-term housing investment, but merely one in which the pursuit of the greater fool is all that matters (not news to anyone here, but certainly news to all those who actually believe that 'housing has bottomed').

Turns out it hasn't, and just like the stock market, it was simply an alternative asset class for those closest to the ZIRP cost basis, to invest their money until Uncle Socialist comes a-knocking.

From AFP:

A flood of top-end properties are hitting the market as businessmen seek to leave France before stiff tax hikes hit, real estate agents and financial advisors say.


"It's nearly a general panic. Some 400 to 500 residences worth more than one million euros ($1.3 million) have come onto the Paris market," said managers at Daniel Feau, a real-estate broker that specialises in high-end property.

But if France is a loser, someone has to be a winner. For now it is the traditional real estate money-laundering venues.

The preferred destinations of those leaving are London, New York and Geneva, as well as Canada, Israel and Singapore, said Laurent Demeure, head of Coldwell Banker France.


He also noted that Brussels remains a favourite of those older, who have already sold their business interests, and are looking to benefit from Belgium's lighter taxation of trusts to pass on inheritances to their children.


"Next year to have dinner with friends, instead of a taxi I'll more likely need to take the Thalys for Brussels or the Eurostar to London," joked Demeure, referring to high-speed trains that link the three capitals.


He said he is currently receiving on average one request per day to appraise a luxury apartment or home.


As a result, in the previous two to three months the price of large Paris apartments had slid by five percent.

This is only the beginning as those who think Hollande was only kidding realize the folly of their ways. However, the biggest issue is that the encroaching taxation of the world's 1% by insolvent sovereigns is only just beginning. Very soon a comparable approach to the real estate assets of the uber wealthy will be adopted by virtually every other target of capital flows, just as we predicted a week ago, when we predicted that those countries which had heretofore been encouraging money laundering into domestic real estate, are about to see an about face, and going forward will instead pull a "Hollande" and proceed to tax the bejesus out of anyone with ultra luxury housing recently purchased on the territory of [you name it broke country]. To wit:

What the NAR is saying is that for now go ahead and lift every offer on every duplex and triplex off Central Park. Your money is absolutely safe with us... this instant. But the second a broke Europe comes demanding reparations for endorsing 4 more years of Obama (something that was already documented), for destroying the Swiss banking industry, and for keeping the EUR much higher than it would have been had it not been the Chairman's 5 easing episodes, all bets are off.


This means all European, Asian, and even local oligarchs may be sweating just a little bit, now that the winds have shifted, and suddenly what was considered safe and untouchable, has become fair game in the great "fairness" redistribution scheme that is the only game left in a broke and insolvent global town.

So while for now the French exodus is benefiting the other legacy (and now thoroughly centrally-planned) free market venues, soon, just as in the case of the collapse of Swiss bank secrecy, all nations will realize that the Nash Equilibrium has been broken, and if everyone hikes taxes comparably, there is no place where increasingly more diluted money can escape to.

Which ultimately is the endgame as more and more wealth is legally sequestered by the government so that it can be redistributed as a few politicians best see fit.


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Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:47 | 2866309 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

Tax the fuck out of everyone and everything!!!!!

Tax people for the privilege of being taxed. You should feel LUCKY you're being taxed, it's your patriotic birth right.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:53 | 2866324 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Squeeze the fuck out of everyone and everything!

Squeeze middle class people for the privilege of being squeezed.  You should feel LUCKY you're being squeezed, it's your capitalist birth right.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:58 | 2866333 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

That's exactly what happens when taxes are raised. At least you understand!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:11 | 2866358 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Yes, Bush (W) proved that lowering taxes for the wealthy = economic prosperity for all.  Just ask 2008.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:21 | 2866367 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

The President is limitied in his power to raise or lower taxes.

Who held control of the Congress under Bush?

*Congress being the authority that is supposed to be responsible for the finances of the country and the authority that regulates taxes.*

As to the credit/housing bubble you can refer yourself to the Community Reinvestment Act.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:25 | 2866392 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Bush had both houses during the large majority his Presidency.  Look it up.  The credit/housing bubble was thanks to Ayn Rand devotee Alan Greenspan and his ever decreasing interest rates that were expressly intended to increase consumer debt spending on real estate and consumer items.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:34 | 2866419 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

Ayn Rand believed in a centrally managed economy?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:43 | 2866441 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Her disciples sure have.  Ask Paul Ryan and Alan Greenspan.  Or do you care only about what they say rather than what they do?  If so, I'm sure you enjoy the Red Team/Blue Team debate.  Carry on with that.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:46 | 2866448 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

Ayn Rand believed in a centrally managed economy?


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:52 | 2866462 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

She actually did if you get past the bullshit  -- she believed the economy should be run (managed) by a few oligarchs from their marble walled offices.  Alan Greenspan implemented her philosophy, or do you disagree that he was 1) a disciple who co-wrote some of her works, who 2) put the bankers in charge of the ecomony?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:02 | 2866474 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

she believed the economy should be run (managed) by a few oligarchs from their marble walled offices.

Cite it; direct quotes from her.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:10 | 2866485 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

If you can't figure it out, I'm not going to convince you.  There is no page and line quote -- of course she never overtly admitted that she saw herself as some kind of chosen one to rule the world.   But it is the overall message if you have the mental horsepower to see it beyond the fictional accounts of brilliant men and women being ever so productive while the rest of the world exists as a giant leech.  Alan Greenspan spent a career proving me right about the implementation of her philosophy.   You don't get it because you have a view of the world in which you imagine yourself in the marble walled office telling everyone else what to do (as Rand did), and you justify your narcissistic view by suggesting it is somehow what is best for those you would rule.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:15 | 2866495 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

she believed the economy should be run (managed) by a few oligarchs from their marble walled offices.

Cite it.

Cite it or STFU.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:20 | 2866511 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Do you really not understand the difference between understanding the message and seeing the message in action, versus reading the literal word?   That rather blatant deficit in logic seems to plague most followers of Rand.  Never mind.  Enjoy the cult and say hi to Tom Cruise (or is that a different cult?  So hard to keep them straight).

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:26 | 2866530 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

So in otherwords you're going to STFU because you stated:

she believed the economy should be run (managed) by a few oligarchs from their marble walled offices.

Yet you can't provide a single reference to support that statement.

I think this conversation is over.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:40 | 2866561 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Yes, it is over.  Some day try to figure out what Rand's real message is, rather than just reading her little stories.  Study the career of Alan Greenspan.  It's like Cliff's notes for those who can't figure it out on their own.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:46 | 2866588 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

Thanks for the hot tip.

One day when you feel like studying the Swastika remember that Indians influenced Hitler.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 09:26 | 2867348 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Pocahontas sang him "I'll put a spell on you!"

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 01:36 | 2866892 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

-- There is no page and line quote

Ha! Busted!

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 07:40 | 2867123 tsuki
tsuki's picture


Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:42 | 2867150 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Ayn Rand was a novelist and a bad ideologue as she never understood the principle of trade-offs* in society; she was totally uncompromising and Manichean in her ideology. Zero defects or Galtian perfection is not collective human reality, its romantic, novelista iconism at best.  Good ideology, even if it establishes an ideal; Plato's logic; always BOWS to human fact; Aristotle's logic and basis of modern political man. She never practiced what she preached except in her book, so don't make her Eleanor Roosevelt's sister. At least Eleanor contributed directly to a major political platform : the 1948 declaration of universal human rights. That lives on for posterity as a political platform and now legal ideal in front of the International Court of Justice (that the US government does not recognise as valid jurisdiction for eventual crimes committed by its own citizens, the irony of it!).

* trade-offs = individual rights; aka bill of rights, and collective rights; aka duty of individual to defend country and uphold law and pay taxes: and never cross those white picket fences to butt punish the neighbour's dog. 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:06 | 2866482 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

Bush hasn't been president for nearly 4 years now.  Get the fuck over it.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:50 | 2866595 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

They don't call 'em "Bush Tax Cuts" for nuthin'.  The so-called Founding Fathers have been DEAD for a LONG time but they still get quoted here -- because they have an effect that outlasts them.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 23:01 | 2866624 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

"We should have also added that we are buying all the available long-dated call options in French real estate firms, with the imminent surge in luxury real estate dumping" (quoted from above post).

why call options if real estate is being dumped?  why not put options?  go easy; i'm slow.  is it just increased transactions?  the firms don't have any owned positions?  i realize it's a joke to start with, but still.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:23 | 2866382 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Another causal fallacy from LTER what a surprise!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:24 | 2866400 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Another conclusory statement without substance or argument from TWSceptic.  What a surprise!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:31 | 2866411 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

I tried arguments with you already, they don't work. You are incapable of logical thinking, which is typical for someone who is as brainwashed as you. You already decided that the free market (freedom) can not work. So you have to defend that belief, regardless of reality.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:43 | 2866443 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

The pot calling the kettle black.  Nicely done.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:41 | 2866566 Quarky Gluon
Quarky Gluon's picture

First, there is no such thing as a free market (all markets are bound by rules both within and without and it is nonsense to describe something as being both bound and free at the same time) and second it is a mistake to equate general human freedom with what most refer to as a 'free market.'

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:26 | 2867187 northerngirl
northerngirl's picture

I think 2008 had to do more crony capitalism...Too big to fail.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:19 | 2866371 Top_Kill
Top_Kill's picture

Gold is looking better and better. Just don't ask Charlie Munger.

 "Gold is a great thing to sew into your garments if you’re a Jewish family in Vienna in 1939 (Or hiding your wealth from a government hellbent on redistributing your wealth),but I think civilized people don’t buy gold, they invest in productive businesses (That will be taxed out of existence unless Wesley Mooch, aka Charlie Munger is your man in Washington),"

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:48 | 2866591 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 .....

Finally someone mentions the obvious answer.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:31 | 2866542 Weyland_Yutani
Weyland_Yutani's picture

Here in Sweden the government puts a sales tax ON the energy tax that is included on your electricity bill. The average tax on a electricity bill is 66 %.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:55 | 2866604 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

In California there's a sales tax on gasoline that taxes the fuel tax, both state and federal, as well.  The fuel is, more often than not, purchased with dollars that have already been taxed.  Just because one pays the tax once doesn't mean he doesn't need to pay it again.  Just like sheep keep getting sheared.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 23:29 | 2866699 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

New Zealand does this with sales taxes on taxes paid to local councils.  The key is to call the local taxes "service fees", even if we never wanted the "service" of having a bunch of bureaucrats telling us we need the blessing of the architects and urban planners' mafias before installing a toilet in our own fucking house.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 03:40 | 2866981 WeekendAtBernankes
WeekendAtBernankes's picture

At that point it is no longer your house.  It is their house, and they feel you should be grateful they've afforded you the privilege and dignity of renting it from them.  They also feel you should be grateful for being allowed to "buy" it in the first place.  Rest assured that if you miss a few rent payments they will gladly "re"-posses it and "sell" it to someone else.  That person should be very grateful because they will allow him to pay them far, far less than you did for the equal privilege of paying them the rent.  Enjoy!

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 07:39 | 2867122 falak pema
falak pema's picture

I think the general idea is to encourage Swedes to have more babies in a cold bed! 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:48 | 2866314 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Wealthy people invest their money

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:53 | 2866325 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

In hidden off-shore bank accounts.  Trickles down to Swiss and Cayman bankers.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:07 | 2866342 nmewn
nmewn's picture


How can it be hidden if everyone knows about it? And "hidden" from what?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:12 | 2866360 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Are you serious?  You don't know about the advantages of foreign accounts for the wealthy?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:23 | 2866390 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You're having a problem with first dollar earned aren't you?

The dollar was taxed ONCE at its earning. Thats the end of it.

Whatever they decide to do with AFTER TAXED EARNINGS is their business, not mine.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:27 | 2866407 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

What if they inherit their money from a guy that died a long time ago, or they received it in a trust that avoids all taxation, which is where the vast majority of oligarch wealth comes from?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:32 | 2866418 nmewn
nmewn's picture

What part of it was taxed once already are you having a problem with?

Are there not state sales taxes in place? What is this thing you have with the federal government being the final benefactor for all private wealth?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:44 | 2866431 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Nice logic.  The problem I have with your desire to end all federal tax on the wealthy because their inherited money was taxed 100 years ago is that the federal government has a useful current role in things like creating the interstate highway system, GPS, airports, national defense, and numerous other things that benefit society as a whole including you.  Winker.    The 400 people who own 1/2 of all wealth in America thank you for your support.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:55 | 2866469 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...the taxes has already been spent ON THOSE HIGHWAYS, ROADS AND BRIDGES at its earning 100yrs ago that you so adore.

What you're doing here is saying, the federal government is coming for the rest of it, with the idea that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT has the best ideas and will be the most productive use for that wealth.

Thats really the position you want to stake out here?


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:59 | 2866475 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

If you can't answer the position I take, restate it and create a straw man.   I'll discuss with you more when you actually respond to what I'm saying rather than your ideologically based straw man version of it.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:38 | 2866527 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Ok...lets start again with the fucking strawmen...from yours:

"The problem I have with your desire to end all federal tax on the wealthy..."

I never said end ANY taxation.

"...because their inherited money was taxed 100 years ago..."

I said it was taxed ONCE didn't I?

" that the federal government has a useful current role"

"...herein lies the rub. It was taxed. One hundred years ago or yesterday, it doesn't matter. The obligation to the government was met by the one who earned it. What they decide to do with AFTER TAX DOLLARS is no longer a concern to the federal government in an ethical system of federal taxation. The debt (tax) was paid just like someone serving a prison sentence.

" things like creating the interstate highway system, GPS, airports, national defense, and numerous other things that benefit society as a whole including you. Winker.""

Alinsky blather ensues.

"The 400 people who own 1/2 of all wealth in America thank you for your support."

I don't envy them, if they got it lawfully. I have a real problem with the rich and connected instituting laws that ALLOWS them to become rich or Solyndra, Fisker, LightSquared etc.

I'm sure, being the "green weenie" nanny statist you're mileage will vary.

Strawman you say? need to go to remedial

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:51 | 2866603 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1 whole tonne, nmewn!  Or would you rather have the $59 million is CA$H?

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 00:51 | 2866822 knukles
knukles's picture

Psssst... DoChen...
Has somebody been smoking crack here?

Makes no sense, won't shut the fuck up, won't go to sleep....

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 06:26 | 2867061 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'll take the ton ;-)

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:30 | 2867196 northerngirl
northerngirl's picture

What would you do to protect your money in the same circumstance?  

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:50 | 2866316 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Oh no!  All that trickle down will stop!   Wait, it never started.  

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 00:34 | 2866708 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Trickle down = Philippe de Rothschild's cum down Ayn Rand's legs.

Trickle down = Rothschilds piss on you and tell you it's raining and it's all your fault.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:51 | 2866321 Meesohaawnee
Meesohaawnee's picture

number one reason why want nothing to do with housing here ever again. Its not the price,payments, etc. Its the thought of in the future being shackled to ever increasing desperate cities and municipalities. wheres the poster with the restaurant scene from goodfellas?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:53 | 2866326 Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

Who said "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

Must have been a smart person

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 07:30 | 2867110 falak pema
falak pema's picture

It was Einstein who wrote a letter to God saying :  I think you're a fake the way you bake yor cake! 

God's reaction was rapid, Einstein died within the month. 

Somebody made a killing on that letter on e-Bay.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:54 | 2866327 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Any word on whether that paragon of virtue, that "man of the people" (Francois Hollande) has put his posh pad in gay Pariee on the market?

Seems an odd time, when theres a glut, maybe economics ain't his gig ;-)

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:55 | 2866328 ItsDanger
ItsDanger's picture

Odd that so many wealthy French people are so amateurish on income taxes.  There are several tax havens, Switzerland is too risky (since like 10 yrs ago).

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 20:56 | 2866330 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Despite this article not bringing many tears to my eyes, it is sad in that it documents that the end is soon upon us. As elite takes up sword against elite and the folly of their wrath descends all are made to suffer as we enter an inevitable revolution of chaos and despair.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:08 | 2866335 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

What happens when the rich (elites) take up swords against the politicians?

You end up with something like the Magna Carta.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:42 | 2866577 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Right.  The elite hate the politicians that they buy and sell....

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 07:27 | 2867107 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Its called hara kiri as you kill the goose that laid the golden egg; without the crony politicians the Oligarchs would have to face the ire of the people. That might not only spell loss of wealth but also loss of head! 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:08 | 2866347 Sheriff Douchen...
Sheriff Douchenik from AZ's picture

So the top 1% sell to the next 1% down ie: French union leaders. Fuck France and Fuck Quebec.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 00:56 | 2866831 knukles
knukles's picture

The Real Question is not why would anyone Sell their Property in France, the Question is why anyone would Buy into France....

They are offensive people who deem themselves to be the very center of Europe unbeknownst awaiting a Grecian experience.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 04:14 | 2866999 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Grecian Forumula: The Gift That Keeps On Taking...

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 07:36 | 2867115 falak pema
falak pema's picture

You'll get your knuckles rapped hard for bad mouthing a whole nation who knows how to make/eat Camembert and drink Chardonnay. 

Its a nice city to walk in and it costs you nothing, if you like walking. Who needs a roof over one's head when you can sleep  under a bridge on the Seine! 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:10 | 2866352 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Definitely OT, but yet another crash in PMs. Just reading some articles on silverdoctors, take a glance at the latest quote/graph, and what do you know, another vertical line.

Glad I didn't buy the dip on Friday. Waiting for better entry point paid off, though I wouldn't be surprised to see silver get much of that back by the end of tomorrow. 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:37 | 2866430 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

Don't let the head fake shake you out.  Tomorrow, silver might be UP $1.00......overnight tricks don't always carry over......

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:53 | 2866455 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Definitely. And what I did in not buying PALL and PSLV when I wanted to at the time last Friday when Ag was down 2% or so, other than maybe factoring Mondays being red lately, was just on a hunch. Strategy is buy the dips, and either way Ag paper price goes I'm ready to move accordingly. 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:59 | 2866630 RockyRacoon
Mon, 10/08/2012 - 00:10 | 2866760 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

You got that right Rocky.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:11 | 2866353 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

 The wealthy in America are paying the lowest tax rates for high earners in many generations. They also earn much of their income from capital gains which is taxed much lower than wage earners income. Also, the host of tax write offs and off shore tax shelters are meant for high wealth earners and they take full advantage of them. So why do we hear that America is taxing them to death? Is this true? How are they so wealthy if Government is taking it all? One suspects that the 1% believe that their tax rate should be zero. Yet they want to keep the police state, the imperial armed forces and to get all the subsides and tax breaks their bribed politicans can deliever. If the American wealthy are being taxed so badly, then why have nearly all the income gains of the last 30 years gone to them?

In fact, the 1% have reaped all the gains, and most of them they get to keep. Yet we hear, even on ZH, a constant stream of tears for the elites who are being taxed to death? Just wondering, are you folks unable to access information on incomes, tax rates and their historical levels NOW as compared to the last, say 75 years?

I don't know jack shit about France, I often visit Europe, but never go to France.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:18 | 2866369 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"They also earn much of their income from capital gains which is taxed much lower than wage earners income. Also, the host of tax write offs and off shore tax shelters are meant for high wealth earners and they take full advantage of them."

Yes they do.

And who fucks with the tax code on a yearly basis? Its the representatives wage earners elect.

So, I can put you down for Fair Tax or a Flat Tax for all and abolish the Progressive Tax Laws?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:31 | 2866414 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

 Are you putting words in my mouth? I said what I said, what I said was fact.


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:36 | 2866426 nmewn
nmewn's picture


I'm fine with taxing all income at the same rates as wage earners, not a problem. I advocate it in fact. Of course we know what that does in the system we have now.

I hope you're short, should it come to pass ;-)

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:49 | 2866456 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

The markets would adjust. Ha! Ha! Big time.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:58 | 2866472 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yes, they will ;-)

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 05:11 | 2867026 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Off shore "tax shelter" please check your facts, and cite the supporting section of the tax code-

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:36 | 2866422 Marco
Marco's picture

As long as a substantial estate tax is kept in place to put a hard limit on wealth accumulation I'm willing to give almost anything a shot at this point.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:44 | 2866446 nmewn
nmewn's picture


It was already taxed once.

Why are we saying that savers or the smartest should pay more because they grow what was already taxed once more efficiently than another who spends every nickel they earn on i-shit?

That was their decision to spend instead of save wasn't it?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:55 | 2866464 Marco
Marco's picture

What you talking about? The savers and smartests don't pay any more estate tax on their earnings than a penniless bum ... only their descendants.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:07 | 2866484 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'm saying, an estate tax is immoral and unethical.

The money earned was taxed already at its point of earning, in order for there to even to be an estate TO tax. My problem is with the "progressive tax code".

At some point, one would expect their earnings to be free and clear from the federal bureacracy and their clawing fingers don't you think?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:17 | 2866502 Marco
Marco's picture

Shrug, land ownership is immoral and unethical ... I'm willing to compromise for practicality if you are.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:35 | 2866552 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Individual ownership and title is the mark of freemen...however it has been bastardized to mean "öwnership" these days.

While it is true no one really owns the land (metaphysically speaking) its occupancy and the right to throw someone out the door for shitting on your carpet or raiding your fridge sitting upon it bears some semblance of ownership ;-)


Sun, 10/07/2012 - 23:03 | 2866644 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

How come they tax my house year after year after year....  Isn't once enough?  Hell, I don't even have kids in schools but I pay for their education anyhow with property taxes!   Yeah, I know:  reductio ad absurdum.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 06:24 | 2867059 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thats exactly my point Rocky.

If I buy a table or chair for that home I'm only taxed once for them. Thereafter, the table and chair are owned outright by me and never taxed again.

There are many other ways for government to collect taxes so that pure ownership remains intact.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 06:31 | 2867062 Marco
Marco's picture

It's also the mark of feudal lords.

First come first serve doesn't magically transform into a moral justification for holding natural resources, no matter how many pages of Rothbard's rantings try to twist words to say otherwise (the way he contradicts himself when talking about the oceans and the rights of Indians in the Americas is priceless). On top of that, even if you do think it is ... almost every fucking single piece of land can be traced back to a theft ... saying that if something is sold enough times the original theft is whiped out from an ethical point of view is completely ad hoc (which is what natural rights ultimately are, ad hoc with delusions of grandure).

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 07:53 | 2867140 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

First come first serve doesn't magically transform into a moral justification for holding natural resources

It does if you consider 'first come, first served' a moral justification for holding natural resources.


almost every fucking single piece of land can be traced back to a theft


You can't possibly evidence that statement. By the way, the concept of theft presupposes the concept of ownership, and as such to believe that land could be stolen one has also to believe that land could be owned. That's a nice little contradiction in which you've caught yourself, what?


which is what natural rights ultimately are, ad hoc with delusions of grandure

Delusions, yes, as opposed to your own ethics which are in no way, shape or form in totality an invention of a human mind, I'm sure.





Mon, 10/08/2012 - 05:14 | 2867028 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

iCrap ownership is immoral and unethical.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 06:34 | 2867069 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

Yeah let's leave the smartest people alone! Powerball winners, Kobe Bryant and Honey Boo Boo are way too smart to be taxed. They should be able to give that smart money to the next generation of geniuses tax free! You sir are a Neomaxizoomdweebie!

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 02:12 | 2866920 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

You are full of crap. For most of American history there was no income tax. It started at 2% for the top 1% only and rapidly advanced. Rates and actual collections vary but America historically has the highest compliance rates in the world. Most of your post is full of socialist sympathizing bullshit and I do not tolerate it very well any more.

Check the actual taxes paid and you will find by any measure the rich pay the freight for everyone and in excess even of their percentage of national income. You might focus on a few high profile cases but the larger numbers tell the story.

Part of any theoretical problem you have is that all power resides in government. Once you give government power to rule, regulate and tax everything they begin doing favors. If the rich keep what pinheads like you think is an unfair amount it is generally because there are rules that allow them to do it or they game the 72000 pages of the unintelligible tax code. The system becomes for sale as complexity increases. The genius of the original American Constitution is that government had very little to no power so there were no favors to grant. The new Constitution under the interpretation of the modern Supremes is a collectivist document under the general welfare and commerce clauses. There are infinite favors to grant and money to pass out, whether it is farmers, Solyndra or welfare recipients.

The second part of the problem is in the fantasy of the collectivist State everyone can have everything they want from the State at little or no cost...if the rich (meaning anyone with more money than you) pays a little more. This puts a constant demand for more revenue and power to the State. It is in fact, legalized theft through the State. It is why the leftist riot and burn when they don't get the goodies. The deficit is the difference between what we want and what we will pay.

You start with one of two concepts, either you own yourself and all you produce or the State owns it. Both lead to opposite consequences. Your statements put you clearly in the group that believes the State owns you.

Even if you hate the rich and think they "cheat" the system do you suppose that raising their taxes right now will improve the economies of the world? Even if you think it is "fair" to take more of their earnings will they hire more people or start more businesses with less money and lower margins? Is the problem that the rich and all producers around the world are taxed too little or that governments have promised too much, spent too much, wasted too much? When you look at the gross tax revenues of the governments of the world in terms of total dollars, Euro's, etc. and their percetage of GDP you think they do not already have enough loot?

I believe we own ourselves and unless the rich stole or cheated someone they get to keep what their hard work and ingenuity delivered. Actually, rich, poor and middle class all have the same property rights and it is or should be illegal for any of them to steal from others...even through the legal process of government.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:11 | 2866357 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Francois Hollande' , the "progenitor of Wealth Distruction"!    Used "wineries"in Tuscany for the 1/2 €.   "Frog Man Liquidation"   The petulent French never learn!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:12 | 2866359 masaccio
masaccio's picture

This is hilarious.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:15 | 2866364 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

One of many reasons I sold my house and left CA.  It wasn't even that I couldn't afford the tax, it was what I saw the fuckers spending it on.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:15 | 2866365 sbenard
sbenard's picture

Qui est Jean Galt?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:19 | 2866374 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Oui, me.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:54 | 2866450 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

It is ironic that real living and breathing believers in the reality of fictional John Galt have been in charge for the last 40 years and yet you fucking clowns keep asking for more.  Pathetic.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:40 | 2867214 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Jean Galt D'Arc (whiskey pete extra crispy edition).

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:16 | 2866366 sbenard
sbenard's picture

And Emperor Obama and his fellow progressives will learn NOTHING from this!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:18 | 2866368 dojufitz
dojufitz's picture

What about all those lazy fuckers asleep in cemetry's? TAX those fuckers!! There are heaps of those lazy bastards doing sweet FA!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:42 | 2866437 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

Yep. Next time you're wondering "where have all the good times gone,"  just ask THEIR opinion!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:25 | 2866397 Publicus
Publicus's picture

We should eliminate all income tax, all tax and fees, and just institue an yearly asset tax. If you don't pay the tax, you don't own the asset.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:43 | 2866438 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

publicus? Berlusconite.  How exactly do  you ,"divy up" taxes on  fractional reserve assets? ( that can't be quantified)

Oh 'LLoyds of London Style" you say?  "Global EFFIN contraction!"

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:26 | 2866401 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

""It's nearly a general panic. "

Notice who is panicking.

No, really... notice who is panicking.

Analyze them...
and the relationships they strive for, then foster... and then depend on...

add in a timeline,

extrapolate the results.

When nobody's minding the store...


there is your "general panic."

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:31 | 2866412 dexter bland
dexter bland's picture

France is an interesting case.

-Unemployment at 13 year highs and rising.

-Recent PMIs looked dire with composite ouput at 43.1

-GDP growth more or less stagnant for six straight quarters.

-Public debt around 90% of GDP and rising.

Add to that capital flight by the wealthy, disinvestment by corporates, and a run on real estate and its very hard to see why French bond yields are so low. Sill being treated as though it is "core" EU like Germany, but starting to look more like a peripheral case.

If French bond yields start to go in the direction of Southern Europe, then look out below for global markets.



Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:45 | 2866447 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

There is nothing unique about France, if you study history!  

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:22 | 2867176 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Except its been around  as top western player for two thousand years whereas the USa has a 250 year time line.

Apart from that its been top dog thrice in world : Crusades, Louis XiV and Napoleon. The time line got shorter every time but there is resilience. They know how to rise from their ashes. 

THe only disconcerting thing is that the French now have a tendency to go back to where it also started; with Julius Caesar laying them siege while they barricaded themselves at Alesia. 

Hollande as the new Vercingetorix in the face of global Oligarchy, new Caesar?

I should sell that to Hollywood or Bollywood; with Obelix and Asterix drinking Yoplait by Danone. 

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 20:26 | 2869517 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

They haven't been worth a turd since Napoleon. Amazing how they became so weak over a short period of time. Let's see if we go the same route.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 05:19 | 2867033 magpie
magpie's picture's softcore ?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:51 | 2866459 surf0766
surf0766's picture

The EU is fixed !

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:53 | 2866463 max2205
max2205's picture

Tops take months or years to roll over.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 21:54 | 2866465 Missiondweller
Missiondweller's picture

$1.3 million? Isn't that like a condo in Paris?


I'm sure they meant at least $1.3 BILLION.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:03 | 2866478 booboo
booboo's picture

You want fairness? We'll give you some fairness. SHHHWIIIIING

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:08 | 2866483 virgilcaine
virgilcaine's picture

Their high minded liberalness and social agendas comes back to bite them.... he he he

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:16 | 2866500 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Where will they go? Manhattan? London? Belize? Stuttgart? Shenzen? Ulan Bator?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:32 | 2866545 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

A true Gentleman and Scholar!

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 02:42 | 2866944 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

Unfortunately there is no place to hide given a sufficiently motivated and empowered government.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:39 | 2867210 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Argentina, like all the other war criminals.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:17 | 2866501 Richard Head
Richard Head's picture

"Economic Patriotism", bitches!

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:44 | 2866580 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

How about Andorra?  Does that still work?

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 22:58 | 2866623 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Andorra, stuck between France and Spain.  If it does still work, it will not for long.

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 23:23 | 2866688 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

Then what happens when nations sign mutual enforcement agreements to enforce each others' tax codes? 

Sun, 10/07/2012 - 23:36 | 2866710 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

When nowhere seems safe, you need to go to physical, if you get my drift.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 00:25 | 2866785 MrSteve
MrSteve's picture

I threw a dart at a world map for them and it stuck in Sheboygan. They will adapt!

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 00:35 | 2866800 Hacksaw
Hacksaw's picture

Someone 'splain to me what happens if all the rich bastards leave and France doesn't collapse into a quivering pile of regret.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:38 | 2867209 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Vichy sympathizing?

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 01:20 | 2866875 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

IF they can find it...they can TRY to tax it.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 02:43 | 2866948 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

France can always call on the United States and its expertise at finding things that don't want to be found.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:42 | 2867217 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

The bigger you get....the wider you spread...the harder it is to keep that fat ass outta sight.


Mon, 10/08/2012 - 04:06 | 2866996 s0lspot
s0lspot's picture

Thats ok, the 75% tax only applies to households making more than 2 million euros yearly in labor income, the capital income is not included in the 75% tax, and I doubt much more than 5000 households over there are concerned by the tax.

This tax is just what it is : political masturbation to soothe the pleb. You traderz don't worry, have your income labelled as capital dividends and forget about the tax...

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 04:43 | 2867012 GACGB1000
GACGB1000's picture

In regards to the 30% global wealth tax ... perhaps Australia is preparing to reduce the notes in circulation.  Pensioners hoarding $100 notes, give me a break.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 07:49 | 2867077 falak pema
falak pema's picture


...Which ultimately is the endgame as more and more wealth is legally sequestered by the government so that it can be redistributed as a few politicians best see fit....

This is what happens when Oligarchy speculation starts churning into wealth destruction bigtime.

The statist sharks move in saying: "Lets tax them as they don't create wealth anymore. At least we'll feed the statist beast and consumption thata way."

And the world moves from hard rock of Scylla oligarchy markets to  whirlpool of Charybdis statist overspending. 

We are in a  lose-lose mechanism big time in first world/

...It's nearly a general panic. Some 400 to 500 residences worth more than one million euros ($1.3 million) have come onto the Paris market...

Now that's what I call fair reporting and definition of "general panic!"

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 08:37 | 2867208 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

"Non, je ne regrette rien."

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 10:07 | 2867456 Dubaibanker
Dubaibanker's picture

Dubai also continues to attract some such 1% people who sell in Europe and buy in Dubai and now with a residence visa to boot, again. After initial hiccups, this residency visa seems to be the final rule.

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 13:08 | 2868450 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture


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