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Guest Post: The Problem With Centralization

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by John Aziz of Azizonomics 

The Problem With Centralisation

Nassim Taleb slams the European project. Perfect timing to counteract the Nobel Peace Prize nonsense.

Via Foreign Policy:

The European Union is a horrible, stupid project. The idea that unification would create an economy that could compete with China and be more like the United States is pure garbage. What ruined China, throughout history, is the top-down state. What made Europe great was the diversity: political and economic. Having the same currency, the euro, was a terrible idea. It encouraged everyone to borrow to the hilt.

 

The most stable country in the history of mankind, and probably the most boring, by the way, is Switzerland. It’s not even a city-state environment; it’s a municipal state. Most decisions are made at the local level, which allows for distributed errors that don’t adversely affect the wider system. Meanwhile, people want a united Europe, more alignment, and look at the problems. The solution is right in the middle of Europe — Switzerland. It’s not united! It doesn’t have a Brussels! It doesn’t need one.

The future is unpredictable. In economics some decisions will be lead to desired results and others will not. Real-world outcomes are ultimately impossible to predict, because the real world is chaotic and no simulation can ever model the real world in precise detail; the map is not the territory.

Centralisation concentrates decision-making. Centralisation acts as a transmission mechanism to transmit and amplify the effects of centralised decisions throughout a system. This means that when bad decisions are bad — as inevitably happens in economics — the entire system will be damaged. Under a decentralised system, there is no such problem. Under a decentralised heterogeneous system, mistakes are not so easily transmitted or amplified. Centralisation is fragile.

And central planning is mistake-prone. Central planners are uniquely ineffective as resource allocators. Free markets transmit information; the true underlying state of supply and demand. Without an open market to transmit price information, central planners cannot allocate resources according to the true state of supply and demand. Capital, time, and labour are allocated based on the central planner’s preferences, rather than the preferences of the wider society.

These two factors taken together mean that centralised systems tend to be both fragile and mistake-prone. That is a dangerous — and unsustainable — combination.

 

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Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:04 | 2885575 topspinslicer
topspinslicer's picture

Freedom Good, Statism Bad. Let them read Rand.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:17 | 2885601 Freeskier
Freeskier's picture

Rand is for children.  

Switzerland is a successful, sustainable model.  They have great mountains, too.

http://freeskierpov.weebly.com/

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:52 | 2885656 kito
kito's picture

switzerland is small, industrious, democratic country....u.s.....umm not so much............

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:02 | 2885671 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

Switzerland also has a larger military per capita than the US and a well-armed citizenry. No-one can take them by force except by nuking them.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:17 | 2885692 kito
kito's picture

nothing that 30,000 drone bombs cant fix...................

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:31 | 2885857 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

You keep asserting this idoitic idea time and time again as if Switzerland could magically make food enough food to support itself (even with some of the highest tariffs in the world on food imports they only produe less than 60% of what they currently consume) and stop the need to import the current large amounts it does. 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 08:37 | 2886693 Observer
Observer's picture

You are right, they will always need to import some of their food but by keeping their dependency on food imports relatively low(er) than that on corresponding exports from exporting countries they are reducing the leverage of those countries on them. Seems sensible to me

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:27 | 2885693 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Switzerland has an excellent political system (coalition) including a major socialist party. Which makes this article pretty ironic considering Aziz says a bunch of platitudes about free markets and then cites Switzerland as an ideal nation. 

A primary difference between the Swiss people and Americans seems to be the Swiss' ability to accept basic science like evolution & AGW. They are also predominately socially left and 50% do not believe in God. They also strongly back advanced education which is affordable for anyone living there. 

Oh and they're not obese - food costs there would make Americans blow their brains out. 

Come to think of it Switzerland is practically the opposite of America. 

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:37 | 2885726 Marco
Marco's picture

Also mandatory health insurance I see (just a little more sanely implemented than in most other countries).

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 21:52 | 2885977 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture

 

 

........ practically the opposite of America. 

I was in Zurich, Switzerland once on my way to Germany. They have the hottest women on earth - everyone is skinny. I could not find one piece of paper / trash on the roads or sidewalks (and I was looking for it!). The most beautiful / cleanest place I have ever seen. They're doing something right, and yes, the opposite of USA for sure.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 22:46 | 2886045 FoolsAdvice
FoolsAdvice's picture

The highest price I've ever paid for a couple of drinks was in Zurich. Off the charts expensive. Makes Manhatten look like happy hour in Pueblo. 

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 23:23 | 2886087 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

My brother lives in Geneva and you get what you pay for - far fewer obese ignorant blowhards ranting about freedom & God. 

The downside I suppose is you don't have the 'freedom' to buy cheap crap at Walmart and gorge on crappy food at awful chain restaurants. 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 02:51 | 2886253 Lore
Lore's picture

My experience as well. People are fit and clean. The morality is strong, too. They have principles, dignity and pride.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 10:02 | 2887099 ATM
ATM's picture

because their personal principles and dignity haven't been replaced by Centralized principles and dignity, which aren't principles or dignity.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 11:44 | 2887288 Marco
Marco's picture

Not centralized, but not individualized either. Which is why the anarcho-capitalists here don't use them as an example very often. At the local level they still use communally decided taxation to pay for wellfare services, there is just enough social pressure and effective oversight to keep the costs down.

As I said below though, it works because they have a highly educated homogenous society ... how to repeat that success in a society with social disintegration from poor education, poor upbringing, a culture of greed, welfare dependency and immigration is an open question.

To think it's just a question of adopting their legal and political structure is hopelessly optimistic ... there are vast area in most countries which simply couldn't pay the wellfare costs for the wellfare dependent without centralized taxation.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 11:51 | 2887297 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

The US spends more money per capita on studens than Switzerland. It's not about the money. As for taxation and welfare, I don't care what other states or cities in the US do. Whaty I am against is the federal government forcing ALL states to do the same thing. 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:38 | 2887813 Marco
Marco's picture

It's not about money, but that doesn't mean money isn't necessary ... you can't just say "lets stop all transfer payments to Detroit", it would tear itself apart ... or Alaska for that matter.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:48 | 2887833 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Almost no one on here argues in favour of broad federal mandates. 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 11:46 | 2887292 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Sorry to see you're such an ignorant fucking blowhard. As of 2010 over 80% of Swiss claim religious affiliation, mostly Christian. Everyone is required to have a gun in their household. Their flag is represented by the Christian cross. Sounds like a place a dumbass like you would not like.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:18 | 2887751 James_Cole
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Religious affiliation doesn't mean much, if you look at Canadian statistics you see a similarly misleading figure. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

48% of Swiss people believe in God, no religion at all accounts for 20% of the non-believers. 

Switzerland has traditionally been a Christian nation and maintains that heritage - Switzerland has also been a democracy for 700 or so years. 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 06:08 | 2886582 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

If you think Switzerland is Godless (or Socialist), you are off your rockers.

There is a financial incentive to be athiest in Switzerland (a 12.5% reduction in my local tax bill), yet over 3/4 claim religious affiliation and pay the church tax (which can have a matching employer component, like Social Security in the US).  The last time the heathens put forward a referendum on the separation of Church and State it was rejected by over 3/4 of the voters.  The last time there was a civil war in Switzerland, it wasn't North-South, it was Protestant-Catholic.  Whereas the UK has bank holidays, Switzerland has Christian holidays.  Whereas Joe Biden is allowed to claim he is Catholic and make no financial contributions to the Church (or any other charity) for decades, the penalty for such an offense this Canton would be EX-COMMUNICATION.

Religion is in the domain of the Local and Cantonal governments (not the Federal), but this is where Switzerland and the US primarily differ.  The distribution of my Swiss taxes is 48.3% Local, 36.7% Cantonal, and 13% Federal, in the US the distribution of my taxes is not only reversed, but the federal concentration is much higher.

There is at least one Canton that doesn't provide official support to Churches, and with apologies to Ratscam, it is a dirty, crime ridden, cesspool of a Canton (but it does have beautiful weather).  Switzerland does have some of the best technical and science schools in the world (ETHZ & EPFL) and basically offers free tutition to them, but Switzerland clings to both its guns & its religion in ways the reddest of the US red states could only dream of.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 06:59 | 2886647 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

+1 and I liked your reminder that there are quantifiable elements of centralization/decentralization. worth repeating:

example of a distribution of Swiss taxes:

48.3% Local, 36.7% Cantonal(State), and 13% Federal

Note that when I mention the proportions of EU's budget vs the National budgets this is not seen as an argument...

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:13 | 2887739 Marco
Marco's picture

Really though, at the moment ECB money printing and stability fund payouts should be counted towards the EU budget ...

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:10 | 2887732 Marco
Marco's picture

Majorities in Switzerland can and do force taxation on fellow citizens to pay for welfare costs of others ... that Penn Jillette quote trotted out so often to condemn socialism applies to Switzerland as much as to any other socialist countries. That it's localized only affects the success, but changes nothing about the cohercion and socialist intent inherent in the system.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 18:15 | 2888712 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Intent is too long a discussion to start this late at night.

If I only made the median income here my personal share of the bill for the  proposed new Air Force fighter jets would be CHF 2,500.  So 4 million people here will personally pay more than that, and 4 million will pay less than that.

Mainting freedom and other values isn't free anywhere, either in dollars or blood.  But the intent of the broader citizenry, as opposed certain political parties, isn't wealth redistribution, but it is certainly a by-product of the process.

im Bewusstsein der gemeinsamen Errungenschaften und der Verantwortung gegenüber den künftigen Generationen, gewiss, dass frei nur ist, wer seine Freiheit gebraucht, und dass die Stärke des Volkes sich misst am Wohl der Schwachen, 

conscious of their common achievements and their responsibility towards future generations, and in the knowledge that only those who use their freedom remain free, and that the strength of a people is measured by the well-being of its weakest members;

 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:32 | 2887795 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

"but Switzerland clings to both its guns & its religion in ways the reddest of the US red states could only dream of."

Name a city in Switzerland comparable to Jacksonville NC. 

Switzerland isn't Sweden when it comes to religion but it certainly isn't comparable to red state America either. And I didn't say it was Godless, more like Canada in its religious breakdown and with 50% not believing in God.  

Church attendence in Switzerland is 16%, 36% weekly in the USA. 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 14:52 | 2887995 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The town I live in has about 2000 people making up 800 families. It's 50% Reformed, 25% Catholic, 25% Other. The mayor is also head of the Parish Council. There are more churches here than in Clifton Forge, VA (a town of 3000). The church bells toll every 15 minutes 24 hours a day, and the ONLY places open today are Churches and restaurants. I don't know where you get your 16% attendance figure, but around here 16% is closer to the rate for those skipping church. FYI I can't find anything about religion on the Jacksonville, NC website...

The entire Canton of Zug (right down the road) is more or less the size and population of metro Jacksonville (You can google translate to your heart's content)

Catholic - http://www.katholischekirchezug.ch/

Reform - http://www.ref-zug.ch/

If you want just a city that has 70k, then try Luzern, their website actually extends beyond the two major denominations at the Cantonal level (in case you are a Druid or Scientologist)

http://www.stadtluzern.ch/de/onlinemain/dienstleistungen/?dienst_id=21388

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 16:02 | 2888168 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

That's a ridiculous point, of the 8 million people who live in Switzerland the 2000 who happen to live near you are part of a relgious community and thus attend chruch regularly, whoopdidoo. 

As I said before 48% of Swiss DO believe in God, and with such a long tradition there are areas where like-minded people live together. There's also a big difference between religious devotion & fanaticism, and there are fanatics in Switzerland to be sure but they don't hold anywhere near 50% of the vote or have any real effect on the culture of the country (abortion, science etc.). And only 30% of swiss reject evolution. 

Apparently 50% or somewhere in the ballpark of 150 million Americans believe the earth is less than 10 000 years old, pretty stark contrast. 

Comparing Lucerne to red state America is completely absurd and not even worth arguing.  

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 17:49 | 2888672 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Perhaps I should have been less understated in my original response. I don't know where you get your 48% figure, but it would imply that half of the population that doesn't even believe in God willingly pays the God Tax -in a country often (mis)construed as a tax haven. Furthermore if 52% of the population actually does not believe in God, then why do half of these atheists vote to continue the official State sanctioning of certain flavors of a God they don't even believe exists.

The Gemeinde where I live is actually fairly representative of Switzerland, and is by no means some Bible beating enclave, at least 1/3 of the population isn't even Swiss (by birth). Once you step outside of the realm of the officially sanctioned denominations, the Sabbath commute becomes longer (than the usual five-minute walk to the nearest Reform or Catholic church), but that hardly stops most people from commuting to Church/Temple/Mosque every weekend, much less believing in God. Try riding a bus or train anywhere in Switzerland on a Sunday. 

Switzerland is full of both apparent and real contradictions and ironies, that rarely make sense to outsiders, and which sometimes escape even residents. The coexistence of God and Science, however, ranks very low on that scale.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:41 | 2887820 Marco
Marco's picture

"but Switzerland clings to both its guns & its religion in ways the reddest of the US red states could only dream of."

So abortion is still illegal then? :p (No, mandatory counseling doesn't count.)

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 15:16 | 2888068 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Switzerland is a Democracy, not a Theocracy, where abortions are performed at less than half the rate in US.  This about reality, not the fantasy of how the Bible Beaters would rule, if only they could...  Where in the US (with its abortion "rights" dictated by unelected judges) is abortion more legally restricted than in Switzerland?  And when is the next US popular vote or national convention assembled at the request of the legislatures of at least two-thirds of the states on a "constitutional amendment" against abortion, is it sooner than the next one here in Switzerland?

 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 15:46 | 2888135 Marco
Marco's picture

I take you to task (tongue in cheek at that) about your assertion of what red US states DREAM about and you're now attacking me because I'm not sticking to reality?

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 17:53 | 2888680 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Hyperbole is often an annoying rhetorical tool, but for some reason no one in redneck country has ever accused me of blasphemy for saying John Moses Browning is God, even when I venture over into the snake handling side of Appalachia.  Switzerland actually has a lot of "eccentricities" that red state Americans would (an do) find frustrating and annoying, but that's why the people who care launch referendums and vote.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 03:27 | 2886270 Middle_Finger_Market
Middle_Finger_Market's picture

The only reason Switzerland exists is; holding money for the ultra wealthy so they avoid paying tax, watches, swiss army kives. Otherwise its a shell of shit and corruption. They go down with the rest. 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 06:22 | 2886608 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

You forget Switzerland has a narcotics business that puts the Columbians and Mexicans to shame, which launders money from unhealthy obese sheeple worldwide into the pockets of the Gnomes of Zurich.  In addition to being some the world's biggest pill pushers, we also feed the world's oil addiction, since this tiny country the size of Maryland, with no oil of its own, controls 1/3 of the world's oil trade trade, which the US keeps expending trillions of dollars and thousands of lives to feed its habbit.

We are all screwed, but Switzerland will do better than most, and by the way- bank secrecy hasn't existed here in over a decade, you should lay off the koolaid offered by TPTB, its not good the mind.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:21 | 2885677 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Switzerland is still the template for the EU. A Confederation.
It's the AngloSphere Cultures that persist in wanting to see themselves in it.

This article is seriously shallow.

Nassim, "Switzerland has no Brussels": it's called Berne. Stick to your excellence, you are a perfect example for a gifted genius being perfectly capable of putting his foot in it, from time to time.

Compare the tax flow of the Swiss vs their federal capital and the tax flow of the EU vs Brussels, just as a side detail.

And it's not the EU, its the eurozone. EZ, dammit! Frankfurt am Mein! Is all this EuroStuff so bloody outlandish that even a former employee of CreditSuisse can't take in the differences?

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:21 | 2885700 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Boah not quite right there Ghordius.
The Kantons do have an important role in the structure of that country. It IS highly decentralised at the core.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:32 | 2885720 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Of course. And the Municipalities are truly at the core of it.

Switzerland is called a Confederation, but technically it's more a Federation.

The EU is called an Union, but technically it's more a Confederation.

The US is technically more a Unitary State, like France or Ireland. Who share a currency through a confederation of national banks.

There are several levels of decentralization, but this "Switzerland has no Brussels" is pure hogwash.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:35 | 2885814 Reptil
Reptil's picture

BULL-SHIT

if a Kanton says NO it is no. If someone has any critique of the EU Commission, they're labelled as cowards.

GO STUDY THE EUROCRATS FIRST BEFORE POSTING PLEASE. Read Van Rompuy's interim report. LISTEN TO THEM NOT TO ME.

 

btw I didn't junk you.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 07:23 | 2886655 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

what do you mean "if a Canton says no"? does not make sense. If a federal law is passed with the majority of the Cantons, the law is passed and federal.

Gollum's interim report is not important because Gollum is not important, IMHO.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 10:27 | 2887122 papicek
papicek's picture

As good an example of circular logic as I can think of. Not that I needed the reminder, and there's 30 seconds of my life I'll never get back again, dammit.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:27 | 2885710 Marco
Marco's picture

The problem is getting from here to there ... such a system can evolve from a low population density low unemployment agricultural society, but how do you implement it in an area which is completely fucked up from poor education and social disintegration by immigration and wellfare dependency?

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 23:42 | 2886103 Stock Tips Inve...
Stock Tips Investment's picture

I think a better option would be to establish a common market. That is, a free market and investments. But where competition is maintained in funding markets. For many years, the risk premium of Spain, Portugal, Greece and other countries was almost equal to that of Germany. Does that make sense?. Today, none of the countries in crisis can implement monetary policies. And countries like Germany, have to jeopardize their financial stability for "rescueing" to those countries. Finally, the "Government of the eurozone" centrally plan the economy wants of that large set of countries that form. Can not do, or will do very badly. Each day, the solution to Europe's problems becomes more difficult.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 19:02 | 2888201 Observer
Observer's picture

Germany lent money to the Southern countries so they could buy their products made competitive by the cheaper Euro whereas their D-Mark would have killed their own wages to be competitive compared to those of the southern countries especially Italy which happens to make some very desirable products quite apart from their women! This was the Faustian bargain that Germany and Southern Europe struck with the Eurocrats. So the southern countries were bribed by cheap money for a time to entice and keep their people in the Euro so Germany can get them addicted to the cheap money and in the case of Italy neutralise their natural weaker currency advantage in return for keeping their standard of living and having access to cheap money but all that had to end sometime as we still can't square a circle. Now it's payback time for Germany who aren't going to get much of their money back. They can't expect to anyway as bad debts are supposed to be written off in the real world. In any case, they were probably arm-twisted by the twisted Eurocrats to be party to the scheme

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 23:53 | 2886119 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Decentralization is good for the state and good for the corporations.  Ayn Rand has an opinion on it?  So what?

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 23:53 | 2886120 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Decentralization is good for the state and good for the corporations.  Ayn Rand has an opinion on it?  So what?

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:05 | 2885578 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

What made Europe great, was culture. Fuck the rest.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:59 | 2885816 Reptil
Reptil's picture

and inventions

and functioning economies

and ...

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 06:03 | 2886581 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

Stupid remark. There is no European culture. The individual countries have cultures, which makes the EU a very bad idea.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 07:49 | 2886665 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

European Culture Club?

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 08:25 | 2886681 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

There is no Europe as implied by the article.

'Americans' are once again bitten by their revisionist history, which prefers to see biological mass (often fabricated) over any other separations. For some 'american' reasons...

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:05 | 2885579 Kimo
Kimo's picture

The Titanic took just under three hours to sink - but from first rising out of the water to submersion was six minutes. It’s end was inevitable the second it hit the iceberg laterally: the engineers informed the captain of its fate after just forty minutes. With just ten minutes to go, however, most passengers remained convinced it couldn’t sink.
Like everyone else, I have no idea when the SS Eurozone’s stern will start to rise ominously. But that it will sink is no longer a matter for debate.

http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/from-the-archives/

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:17 | 2885599 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Two bankers were sitting in the stern.  One was heard to say: "Things look better and better because we're rising higher and higher above the dark cold waters."

 

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:23 | 2885612 Kimo
Kimo's picture

I'm afraid the bankers were in the first lifeboat, warmly dressed, with a case of champagne.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:57 | 2885663 machineh
machineh's picture

... and flapper girls in silk negligees, high heels and feathered hats ...

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:04 | 2885674 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

Then they encountered Leonardo DiCaprio and jumped off the ship in despair.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 00:22 | 2886151 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Kate Winslet was so fat she dragged the bow down.

 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 06:06 | 2886584 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

but you'd still do her

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:07 | 2885580 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Most decisions are made at the local level, which allows for distributed errors that don’t adversely affect the wider system.

The government which is closest to the people is the easiest for them to control.  Which is why the EU was created: to create a super powerful government body furthest from the people themselves.

And central planning is mistake-prone. Central planners are uniquely ineffective as resource allocators.

It's never really about planning.  It's always about looting.  The planning is a facade.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:10 | 2885587 r00t61
r00t61's picture

Forward, unelected technocrat puppet leaders for all!

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:05 | 2885615 Clint Liquor
Clint Liquor's picture

It's always about looting.

Yes, absolutely!

Could you steal a Billion dollars from your City? How about your County or your State? Not likely because it is more than (or a large percentage) of their annual budget. How about the Federal Government. Of  course, it happens every day. A Billion is nothing to the Feds, a mere $3 per person in the US, and only .03% of the annual budget. Centralized Government is great, if you are a thief.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:00 | 2885819 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Someone might have an accident on the way home, like a baseball bat colliding with the side of the head.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 06:07 | 2886589 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

or a boating accident

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:50 | 2887829 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

actually small govt is just as much 'cover' for looting and corruption as Big Govt 

what set me on my path to understand why Govt does not work (at any level or of any size) over a decade ago was the looting by my local Govt, in this case the perversion of a bidding/tendering mechanism for a local public telecoms company. The global telecoms giant picked up the Co for zero/£0.00, it was worth circa £60-£80m, and has repeated this remarkable feat across the globe in small principalities (the global dinosaur loves picking up monopolies handed over by corrupt politicos the world over) 

that's what pinged the mechanism of why Govt large or small always has the same character and always produces the exact same ignorant corrupt performance: it's a Monopoly, monopolies large or small always produce shit 

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:40 | 2885636 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Looting and control is the plan.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:42 | 2885732 Reptil
Reptil's picture

The GLOBAL planning is a façade !!

Look what these EU apparatchiks are doing while making a mess: They're about to open up Europe with a free trade agreement. It's all backroom politics. No referendum no discussion even, NOTHING.

http://www.alde.eu/press/press-and-release-news/press-release/article/in...

"Global growth is in Asia so it's in Asia that we must go after growth. Japan is the third largest national economy in the world but only our seventh largest trade partner. This is unacceptable and we need to use free trade negotiations to re-launch our exports to this crucial partner. My report makes clear that we must be firm in negotiations and secure a good deal for EU industry - opening negotiations does not mean that we have to complete them if Japan does not fulfill its part. In particular, the Commission must ensure Japan removes non-tariff regulatory barriers to trade and obstacles to public procurement which unfairly shut out European companies. To those reluctant national governments, I say that we must see this FTA as an opportunity and not as a threat. The same protectionist fears were present before the conclusion of the FTA with South Korea, but now a year after its entry into force, the statistics show that it's the EU that benefited the most. "

He's writing about Japan but this is also a free trade agreement with the USA! They want to pull a "Wallmart" on us.
I.o.w. They're declaring war on the people they're supposed to represent!

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:46 | 2885745 Marco
Marco's picture

Without significant fiscal/budgetary muscle the EU never had that much power to plan ...

It's only the ECB and the Euro which are forcing through the transfer union, to solve structural problems the ECB and the Euro caused ... using a budget created out of thin air by the ECB.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 06:38 | 2886633 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Sante, Prodi, and the rest of the Facist urchins knew exactly what they were doing.  I can remember a meeting I attended (or at least the very good cigar I smoked at that meeting) in the summer of '03 or '04 where the issue of limited Federal Authority in the EU was viewed as an impediment to doing certain business, and one of the speakers brought up Prodi's then recent comment that future crisis would complete the euro project, the fall 2010 attack on sovereignty by Van Rompuy (at the behest of Merkel & Sarkozy) has so far been largely resisted, but in the end the golden rule is likely to prevail.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 07:17 | 2886652 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

there is always some Big Biz guy railing about "limited Federal Authority in the EU" - meaning that for lobbying and greasing Big Biz prefers to have one powerful EU instead of 27 Nations. And this has been now a repeating request from CEOs of many transnationals to finally "get it", have for example also an elected President of the EU and finally succumb completely to the Global CEO Dirigism with it's Oligarchs, Think-Tanks, PR actions and Media Bombardements.

Nevertheless our dear Gollum has, as you yourself describe, been there at the behest of Merkel & Sarkozy. At the behest of the President of the French Republic and the Chancellor of the German Federal Republic. The two leaders of the Council. And it's still "France wants..., Germany asks for..., Italy says..., Spain doesn't.... The crisis is not of the EU, and not even really of the EZ (yet), it's of the National Debts.

And that's where I continue in believing that all this SuperStateEU talk is only this: BigBizAgitProp. They are exploiting twenty years of disinterest by certain national populations to have this "thing" floated about the EU not being democratic. Some europeans are nowadays enough Americanized to think that democracy means you get to vote for your Gollum.

Gollum trying to immortalize himself? Of course. Gollum telling Germany and France what to do? Don't think so.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 08:42 | 2886697 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

My concern is that the Usurpers can achieve their goals by hook or by crook.  As long as the national governments are dysfunctional or not representing the will of the people to push back against increased authority in Brussels, then TPTB can win either quickly in the case of a Gollum victory, or slowly in the case of expanding administrative law- which destroys small business and protects oligarchy.  But the deck is stacked against the individual and without the support, or with the dysfunction, of the individual's national government the eventual outcome is largely predetermined, only the time frame is in question, barring intervention on the part of national governments or collapse of the centralized mechanisms brought about by failure to resolve the financial crisis.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 11:45 | 2887290 Reptil
Reptil's picture

word

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 12:01 | 2887291 Reptil
Reptil's picture

double

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 12:00 | 2887311 Reptil
Reptil's picture

IMO the REAL issue is food.

The money's just fiat. It's used as a leverage mechanism to transfer power, but that's just short term. There's the issue of gold but that's another topic.

The abillity of the european people to grow and sell their own food, in the manner that they wish is CRUCIAL in the next decades. And this is what's under fire. It guarantees their independence from larger corporations. It's neo colonialism we're facing.

To prove my point that there's indeed a push for changing the status quo, the EHEC outbreak was a biological weapon, the thing comprised of several agressive E-coli strains with some Plague DNA bolted on top. First the spanish organic farmers were blamed, resulting that they could scrap their whole harvest at a crucial point in time, then some organic farmer in Germany itself was blamed. While it turned out to be a COÖRDINATED attack; an outbreak simultanious at different places.
Süddeutsche Zeitung 31 may 2011, Page 12, article top left with the cucumbers picture, second column.http://issuu.com/europaahorn/docs/szd11531

The EU without democratic oversight, writing up "Free Trade" agreements because they read some botched financial report, will be detrimental to this existing situation of a relatively free market, ironically shielded by tariff walls and laws.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:09 | 2885586 Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

From the relative 'humble' European Coal and Steel Community to the obese monstrosity currently called the European Union, the elitist clowns in Brussels (and the other European capitals) were full of it (and full of themselves).  What a joke.

Not that the USSA is that much better, but I'm just sayin'....

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:59 | 2885667 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

yes, unfortunately, these days, "being more like the United States is pure garbage" 

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:11 | 2885590 Encroaching Darkness
Encroaching Darkness's picture

It may be that the only way to learn is in each generation; the 14th-century Chinese invented paper money, which promptly failed. Weimar, Zimbabwe, Continentals; ever and again, paper money is printed out to worthlessness.

I despair of human progress sometimes; Gutenberg did us a great favor, but we will not read history books and actually learn from them.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:11 | 2885591 css1971
css1971's picture

Yeah yeah yeah, but if you are a meglomaniacal psychopath it's much easier to get things done if power is centralised, not distributed. Could you imagine trying to organise a grass roots, bottom up effort to commit genocide?

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 04:26 | 2886291 Darth Rayne
Darth Rayne's picture

I'd like to quote from two films;

Highlander : There can be only one

Star Wars :- Things would have run a lot smoother without the fucking Jedi. (Admittedly a cut scene.)

Ben was telling me the other day that if the fuck wits in Government, thieves on Wall street, the fat fucks eating all the food and the people who don't think he knows what he is doing would all fuck off, things would run much more smoothly.

I think the Rule of Two ought to apply.

One to have all the power and another who seeks that power.

Then things would run much more smoothly. providing that there are only two people on the planet and they were both male. There would soon only be one and eventually none. Then things would run very smoothly indeed.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:20 | 2885608 OutLookingIn
OutLookingIn's picture

Swizerland is a well armed camp.

Each citizen must serve a period of time in the army.

At the end of that time, the citizen soldier must retain ownership of his service rifle and keep it at his home.

Once a year two week callouts, for refresher training and re-qualifying with their rifle is mandatory.

Every mountain in the country is honey-combed with intersecting fortifications.

Excellent camoflage is key. Innocent looking chalets and hay lofts are in fact, hardened concrete bunkers.

The population is encouraged to practice good marksmanship, where the state provides all the ammunition nessesary, free of cost.

Your valuables are safe in Switzerland.

 

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:27 | 2885618 Kimo
Kimo's picture

"Your valuables are safe in Switzerland."  LOL... are they safe from the Swiss!

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:34 | 2885627 OutLookingIn
OutLookingIn's picture

Being landlocked and known as a nation (falsely) of clock makers, the Swiss have nothing but their "word" to fall back on. Honest dealing in business being ingrained into the very fabric of society, from an early age. A man's word being his bond. So, hows that working back home in America Inc?  

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:50 | 2885751 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Are you currently accepting applications? This place is turning into a hell hole.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:53 | 2885806 Kimo
Kimo's picture

"A man's word being his bond."

Your right, its pretty bad in the USA.  Somehow, the IRS has been informed about Swiss accounts held by USA citizens.  Oh, I'm sure that was a bonding experience for the account holders!

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 23:26 | 2886089 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

It should'nt be a big surprise.  With one liar per 300 citizens, the US has more lawyers per capita than any other country in the World.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:30 | 2885869 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Clock-makers?  Just a little bit more diversfied than that. 

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 04:48 | 2889322 honestann
honestann's picture

Unfortunately the Swiss banker-predators and government-predators have destroyed their well-earned reputation by turning over information on clients of their banks.  Therefore, Switzerland is no place for financial security any more --- they are NOT trustworthy any longer.  Try Singapore or Panama (for a while, anyway), but in the end, keep your wealth 100% in physical assets under your own control.  The predators have taken over EVERY organization on earth, either directly or via regulation.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 05:38 | 2886572 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

http://rt.com/news/switzerland-prepares-europe-unrest-263/

Switzerland arming in preparation for European meltdown?
Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:22 | 2885610 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

I believe the guillotine moment will arrive again in an EU spring. But not until 2016 or later. Fucking sheeple have to stand at the slaughterhouse doorstep before waking up. Mweeeheee.....

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:29 | 2885619 Kimo
Kimo's picture

Are you predicting that Sadam's execution will be repeated, many times over?  Bullish for Youtube!

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:38 | 2885633 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

It's gonna get much much better. There was no blood in the Saddam thingy was there?

Hedge accordingly.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:37 | 2885630 Apeman
Apeman's picture

I hate the fucking EU and where I live, everyone is fkn brainwashed into thinking it's a good thing, the progressive thing to do, etc.

Never any critical discussion about the EU in the media, really absolutely never.

When will all those dumbasses learn? Probably never. Fucking idiots. It's pissing me off.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:34 | 2885695 Reptil
Reptil's picture

They'll come to their senses soon enough, when their country will be "dissolved" and their economy "re-arranged".

Of course the spanish are awake (but reeling from the blow to their hard-fought and loved democracy, and unsure whom to trust).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vBcGaDs6hk

I don't know where you live but over here in the Netherlands, underneath the MSM (which partially turned into a propaganda machine) finally, FINALLY people are waking up to the reality that this EU project is going in a very different direction they were told (by the press and their government representatives).

Here's a newspaper article from Belgium (the nest of the snakes), it was posted before.

I SUGGEST PPL. READ IT TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THE INSANITY OF THE "FEDERALISTS"
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=...

and the original link http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF20121008_00327324

The admission of Van Rompuy that he will use the creditcrisis now dubbed "economical crisis" to forge more centralised planning is quite bold. Especially when the whole thing was contrived under mismanagement of money streams by the same bunch of fuckers.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:48 | 2885748 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Thank's for the links and the insight. It's always good to hear what's going on from people actually living in it.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 11:25 | 2890554 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Dutch Government feels bubbling anger and decides to go against the Van Rompuy plan:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=...

original article: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2012/10/15/kabinet-in-reactie-op-van-rompuy-eer...

and this is a very pro-europe/bilderberg newspaper.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:04 | 2885766 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Reptil, tell us something about the recent elections in the Netherlands. For whom did you vote? If I may ask...

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:11 | 2885845 Reptil
Reptil's picture

I voted for a party that specified they oppose and voted against the ESM. Which is a bunch of crap. Our Accounting Office gave a negative advice, it's a bottomless pit.
The two major parties VVD and PvdA are like the Democrats and Republicans. There's a whole show and a semblance of real differences, after the elections both found each other in a loving embrace. THERE WAS NO MENTION OF THE CREDIT CRISIS, ESM, etc. in any of their campaigns, NONE.
As I've posted, the dutch have been asleep at the wheel. They're STILL listening to the CDA, VVD, PvdA, D66, all those carreer politicians that just gave shit away without ANY guarantees, or even promises, just because they want a cushion job in Brussels.
The only party big enough to punch a dent in the whole euro treason was the PVV with the "funny hair" guy Wilders. But I don't trust those fuckers either, since they're in bed with big-nuclear, and just luuuurrrrrrve a dutch Guantanamo.

So.... the dutch will pay dearly for their capital mistake, that's clearly a result of "normalcy bias". They'll see their centuries old democracy shredded, and their open and synergetic model of organisation crushed under an EU policeforce boot. Already our holy coffeeshops, functional for the last 30 years will be eradicated, GLEICHGESCHALTED.

30 billion euros for the ESM (to start with), from a Netherlands that's been a CREDITOR of the EU since day one.
It's a bloody scandal.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 21:01 | 2885912 Apeman
Apeman's picture

Guess where I'm from... fucking Belgium. Just like you said, the nest of the snakes. The level of propaganda is unreal over here.

Election day tommorrow... one more vote for the NVA. Funny how the VLD will get crushed again.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 11:28 | 2887254 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Also from Belgium, agree 100%. No referendum on EU decisions either. I apologize for "Van Rompuy" though I never voted for him either!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 11:30 | 2890564 Reptil
Reptil's picture

he was appointed not voted in. apology accepted ;-P

what's the situation now over there? De Wever won, didn't he? very untransparent for outsiders to see what's going on.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:40 | 2885736 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Then start one. I often meet uncritical, shallow, uninformed or simplistic arguments here. Give me some beef of why you hate the EU.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:05 | 2885768 Reptil
Reptil's picture

I'm PRO EU, PRO-Europe. I think it's a great idea. It can work, people do want to coöperate, and in time this will create a synergistic unity. Without Brussels' "help" this process, even after 10 years was well underway.

However.....

This is not what is going on now anymore.

Under central planning, money streams were mismanaged from day one. The Accounting office REFUSED to sign the deals. AND RIGHT NOW STILL REFUSES TO SIGN OFF ON THE BUDGET BECAUSE OF MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST AND MISMANAGEMENT.

Under central planning, without inclusion of any public debate or voting, nefarious scemes like Codex Alimentarius were rammed through, which now are starting to be transferred into irrevocable laws.
Under central planning they took a bunch of trade treaties, stuck some orwellian crap on it, and called it a "European Constitution". It was a bureaucrat joke and we voted it down.
Reaction?
Under central planning they disguised the same garbage as the "Lisbon Treaty", and pushed it through Ireland again and again until a marginal majority accepted it. In other words they BOTCHED the opportunity to craft a real CONSTITUTION that could form the basis of the EU. They're NOT interested in protecting democracy, from themselves, they just want MORE POWER.
Then they went ahead and chose the side of the banks in the credit crisis, instead of letting capitalism (and gravity) do it's work, they "rescued" the broken and corrupt financial system THEY THEMSELVES set up.
And now that's turning out to be a turkey they're USING the chaos and malaise of imploding economies and crony local goverments they showered with money before as a reason to push through even more centralised planning.

And then they have the gaul to stuff that BS down the throats of disciplined taxpayers in the North, after they looted the peasants in the south?

And STAB a knife in the back of the small to medium business and farmers wich were doing great in the north? With a fucking NAFTA BS???
And then pat themselves on the back of a job well done, with a Nobel Peace price as the cherry?

I'll tell you what's wrong with them: They have the mechanistic world view of engineers, of beaurocrats, of apparatchiks. They built ivory towers, and regard the present situation as "on scedule" while they're dragging economies into black holes because they think their own personal job position is more secure with paying lipservice through the back door with supra national corporations, instead of regarding the PEOPLE, the countries as organisms. I.o.w. they treat the world, and economies like machines, and from a CNBC perspective (an apt reference I would think)

They're fucking it up, our dream, and while they're doing it they're pointing a fiscal gun at the heads of those they should listen to.

THAT is what the fuck is wrong. And if you're a european, and didn't see that, you're motherfucking BLIND.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:47 | 2885801 I am on to you
I am on to you's picture

Ill take the freedom and extend your start of pros:

I am Pro world, pro Humans,social mind without the ISM,nobody on this planet shall be without food or house, whilst others swim in wealth!

 

And yes, I voted"NO"to this shit construction in 1972,cause i knew they were building Babels Tower,just didnt come to mind that the, TOILET, would have this size,but They needed this to flush all the idiots(The Irish) down the drain,and dry their arses with the Lisabon treaty,feel free Ireland,or just dry!

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:52 | 2885803 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I'm an euro, and I'm trying hard to see.
You mention the Codex Alimentarius. How do you see those coming laws affecting you and me? What should I exactly fear?

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:27 | 2885859 Reptil
Reptil's picture

ALL VEGETABLE AND FRUIT SEEDS ARE FROM NOW ON FORBIDDEN UNLESS THEY HAVE A CERTIFICATION OF THE EU.
That means that farmers can't cross breed their own seeds anymore. The bureaucrats in Brussels obviously know this is better left to them. ANd when you do want certification, you'd have to pay up. BIG. This shits a big turd in the face of 10.000 years (at least) of agriculture.Even herbal medicine that hasn't been certified and tested in a laboratory (this costs a lot so only big Pharma can afford that) is VERBOTEN.

Yup, good old Codex Alimentarius, another Nazi invention.

PLEASE PUT DOWN THE ROSE COLOURED GLASSES!

WHY would they do this? To protect the citizens from evil organic tomatoes (GMO is now not allowed but with the trade agreement, it will be) No, this is a ploy to open the market for the big agriculture corporations, big pharma.

It seems to me, that instead of asking me why I'm unreasonably fearful, you should look at the dark side of the EU more. Please note that with critisism there can be improvement. But in Brussels critique is "opposition" and they just close the door.

That's not leadership, that's not regarding the diversity in agriculture, and food that is typical of europe. That's top down mismanagement.

 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 07:10 | 2886649 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Look at the bright side, at least you don't farm in the USA.

The body of Statutory Federal Law (only that from the US Congress) is 42,860 pages, of which 11%, or 4,791 pages is directly applicable to farming.    The body of Administrative Federal Law (only that from the unelected federal regulators- EPA, Department of Agriculture, etc.) is 170,785 pages , of which 36%, or 62,227 pages is directly applicable to farming.

Then a there are all the Laws & Regulations which are applied at the State and Local level... In the State of Virginia there are thousands of additional pages for the law-abiding farmer to absorb and digest before deciding on what type of seed to plant or livestock to herd.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 20:34 | 2887092 Reptil
Reptil's picture

That's EXACTLY what this EU is turning into. A bureaucratic GIANT with matching paperwork. Of course those with connections, like larger corporations can afford to put ppl. on the ground in Brussels, to communicate and influence.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/index_en.html

Whenever laws get too complicated and untransparant, this facilitates corruption and destroys democracy. It's the hallmark of a top-down form of governing that is centralised, it's an inflexible layer of BULLSHIT that shields those making the descisions from the rest. Of course smart ppl. in agro business (Monsanto, Synerga, Dupont et. al)  know this, and position themselves above the layer.

The regular farmer coöperations in the seperate lands? They're wayyyyyyyy behind the curve. They're still dealing with the regional governments, since those are the ones issuing the laws.
So, the distribution of power doesn't go upwards, it's NOT a two way street. And the developments are going really fast now. The EU burocrats are determined. Rapid changes machine gun pace. Of course they should be, but there MUST be voluntary participation, not coërced. And that can ONLY happen when the descision making process is transparent. The system needs an overhaul, bad.

In one or two years you'll see the headlines here: What happened, we don't want this etc... Then it will be too late, to fix without a conflict.
And I least of all ppl. want that because it will damage the position of europe, and make the world a lot less free. I'd like a CHOICE between GMO and non-GMO. I'd like a CHOICE to choose between produce of small farmers, and bigger mass production. We have this choice now, but it's being eroded. The ppl. of the USA and Canada do NOT have this CHOICE anymore. There's no labelling of what's what. "Organic" doesn't mean shit, if you go by the label. Sure there's local farmers, still. But they're being forced out of the market. The market's monopolised there.

It STILL can be fixed. But no one is sending a message to Brussels. They're all looking at the road 2 feet in front of them.

I'd say to the ones pushing for this type of agriculture management to move to the USA, they can be happy there. We do not want it.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:59 | 2885922 Anglo Hondo
Anglo Hondo's picture

Quote from Aziz: "Meanwhile, people want a united Europe ..".  No they don't.  The EU 'leaders' want this, but the regular guys in the pub, coffee shop, bistro, cafe, etc., definitely do NOT want this.

They want cooperating countries, without trade barriers, but the last thing they want is a United States of Europe.  Especially as the 'leaders' are all non-elected, dictatorial morons, who have no idea of economics or democratic rights and responsibilities.


Sun, 10/14/2012 - 07:28 | 2886658 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

amen. but this is regularly traduced into a "they want a United States of Europe", and the "non-elected" you are mentioning is part of this propaganda war

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 03:35 | 2886273 Nimby
Nimby's picture

Let's be careful here:  there is the EU in reality, and then there is the EU as you, or I, or someone else may wish to see it.  We ought to only consider the EU as it is.  Otherwise we're pissing up a flagpole.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:23 | 2885782 Nimby
Nimby's picture

The right to self-rule is as much a human right as any other.

The European Union makes self-rule irrelevant: the average voter cannot possibly have enough information to make an informed decision about who to vote for, OR, in the absence of elected positions, the basic notion of self-rule is utterly scuttled.

So either you need to argue that my first premise concering self-rule is flawed, or, barring that, the European Union provided the opporunity for self-rule.  

Go!

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:43 | 2885799 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

mmhh... And how many europeans do you think there are that would agree with your individualistic concept of personal self-rule? Out of half a billion? In which Nations, Cultures, Parties, Tribes? While sympathetic to your cause, I have to inform you that this continent is a buzz of hive-minds, from your perspective.

Further, the EU is a club of goverments. Like the civil counterpart of a military alliance.

To be blunt, if the EU it's fucking you (it does happen, all human groups or institutions have nasty sides) it's because your national government is allowing it. Something the Brits have still not understood even though French schoolchildren could explain.

The info is there. But most detractors can't even tell who is in the Council, how they got there, or what is the relationship between Council, Commission and the elected European Parliament.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:23 | 2885783 Nimby
Nimby's picture

The right to self-rule is as much a human right as any other.

The European Union makes self-rule irrelevant: the average voter cannot possibly have enough information to make an informed decision about who to vote for, OR, in the absence of elected positions, the basic notion of self-rule is utterly scuttled.

So either you need to argue that my first premise concering self-rule is flawed, or, barring that, the European Union provided the opporunity for self-rule.  

Go!

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:43 | 2885894 Reptil
Reptil's picture

what you can say is that they make the whole descision making process completely untransparant. and yes, despite saying the contrary, they have been doing that.

Brussels is a logistic nightmare for ordinairy people. You can spend WEEKS figuring out all the commissions, advisory boards, councils etc. and still don't know who will represent your ideas best.

Again, this is ON PURPOSE. It's a defence mechanism from those who embedded themselves into the seats of power while we were all watching the dog and pony show.

OPEN AND DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATION that's what we need. not this FARCE.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:40 | 2885634 Segestan
Segestan's picture

I guess the author never heard of Babylon. The EU is a game within a game.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:57 | 2885664 silver surfer
silver surfer's picture

 

 

Babylon system is the vampire, falling in fire, sucking the blood of the sufferer. Building church and universities deceiving the people continually....tell the children the truth.

 

Babylon System- Bob Marley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5EoiQX7u5k

 

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:27 | 2885711 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Interesting but IMO your reasoning would suggest the same as the author.

Someone in my country called Brussels "The New Babel" because of the language barriers there could NEVER be sufficient democratitc oversight and the reporting that controls it.

Too many back rooms, and advisory commissions where politicians and apparatchiks decide for hundreds of millions of people, on a whim.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:42 | 2885740 turbosuperman
turbosuperman's picture

Tower of Babel, EU Parliament

http://i.imgur.com/HgL5J.jpg

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:57 | 2885638 Reptil
Reptil's picture

YES this dude got it.

What I do want to add is that there are cycles of decentralisation and centralisation, and that these have correlation with Kondratieff waves of economic cycles. As noted some time ago, also by Zerohedge, the Kondratieff cycle was deliberately broken by the Central Planned Banks.
Which will result in a disproportionate counter effect (every action has a reaction).
They're forcing another artificial round of centralisation, which is neither logical nor profitable.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:45 | 2885645 phat ho
phat ho's picture

Hey, at least France and Germany aren't fighting any wars just now  /s

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:56 | 2885661 unky
unky's picture

THey just used the reason "to compete with CHina / U.S." but in real world its neccessary to centralize power in the hands of a few

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:29 | 2885686 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Why? What's the reason? To compete with other "superpowers"? Just because some are bigger, it doesn't mean they're more successful economically! The USA does enjoy a top position in the world right now, but how long has this been like this? And how long will it last? 

Centralisation to with the purpose of enlarging the scale is an american and also globalist way of looking at things. And if you study the history of the european continent, it's not applicable to europe. Partly because of geographical circumstances, but mostly because of deeper structures within society. Structures that permeate everything. Of course europe has had periods of centralised control, but those never lasted; the real power was always firmly based on getting the smaller structures (provinces) in line.

My guess is you've never lived in europe. (but that's just a guess)

So what's the "plan" of the federalists/globalists/central planners of the EU/NWO? Wreck everything, destroy cohesion through creating chaos, and then come with the "solution". It's quite strange to destroy something functional first, with the purpose of building something up.
War is peace.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:55 | 2885757 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Side remark: "Of course europe has had periods of centralised control, but those never lasted".

Roman Empire: in the West about 1'000 years. In the East longer.
Holy Roman Empire: from 800 to 1806.

Of course it depends on the definition of "centralized control". Continental, former HRE Europeans are very good at giving an appearance of centralized control while going our own way.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:25 | 2885784 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Dude I'm a historian by education.

With all respect: Don't give me crap that the Roman Empire lasted a thousand years because it's bullshit. From Augustus to Constantine. At the most. Unless you regard hordes of barbarians pillaging through the countryside as "empire". The Byzantine empire did last longer and was very highly developed at some point. But it's more Eur-asian than core Europe and that's what we're talking about now. It also collapsed in corruption. They were more hated by their neighbours than the barbarians at the end.

And in the third century it imploded, after they dilluted the silver currency and the whole thing was corrupted to the core.

The holy Roman empire was a very loose confederation held in check by a nasty army, that no one wanted a visit from.

==

I'd pose the following: The cycles of nation-building, of balancing out structures of commerce and culture, are now much shorter because of modern communication and transport. I could step in my car and be in a TOTALLY DIFFERENT country tomorrow and no one would bat an eye. This might be hidden to us, europeans, but it is significant, since it's different from North or South America, from Russia and China.
So the comparison doesn't fly. 200 years of roman empire building can be realised in a much shorter timeframe.

However....... that's not the point. THEY ARE FUCKING IT UP IN BRUSSELS. There's still time, but they need to allow more democratic principles into their organisation. They're IMMUNE to constructive critisism. They block every attempt of correction as "opposition".
So... in order to save the damn thing, they have to relinquish power for now and let the EU grow naturally.

So this time it IS different. I agree with you, they're very good at pretending they have control, while they don't. But they're working hard on rectifying this by making use of this crisis.

Those are not my words, but I read that in Van Rompuy's "Interim Report" I posted a link in a previous post, yesterday. I suggest you read it.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 07:39 | 2886661 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

ok, now I read the Report. SO WHAT? Gollum is floating again a couple of requests that are mostly rehashes of old proposals - including an eurozone budget and debt. remember the City of London request for EU-Bonds?

it's called floating, i.e. putting in discussion. Germany is already vetoing some of them.

Don't take me as disrespectful, but are you sure that you are temperamentally adjusted to democracy?

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 11:28 | 2887225 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Hahaha funny. I don't deny I am pissed off, and my reaction yesterday was a bit eeh.. emotional. Seeing the images of spanish and greek protestors, people whom I may know personally, with the same genuine concerns amidst a failing governance, being treated like unruly cattle, and the indifferent attitude of ppl. in my own country towards issues that also concern them, in the long run, caused that in me.

Nevertheless, I am capable of dialogue (thank you very much), I'm from a culture where EVERYTHING is a dialogue. That might be seen as "disrespectful" or "sceptical" by a french or german citizen, so be it. The further descision making is removed from the people, through central planning, the further it will be removed from the cause of the single individual. Larger entities like corporations with deep pockets will have a much more favorable position, as can be seen by the handling of the credit crisis. It's an example of what's to come.
We're talking empire building here, and if we don't get it right now, we're in a world of trouble. A moment like the "framing of the american Constitution". And as good as that was, it still is turning pear-shaped right now. There's a drive for Globalism involved with the proposed Free Trade Agreements. REALISE WHAT'S AT STAKE, please?

FWIW a brief adress of the Van Rompuy Interim Report:
First he's adressing the crisis; there's no mention of correcting mistakes that led to this situation in the first place. There's only the drive for further centralisation.
I ask you: If a structure fails to deliver the required outcome, will enlarging the exact same structure lead to better results?
There's NO self correcting mechanism in Brussels. And that's the point; they've fucked up, and they see corrections as a personal political defeat.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=...

original link: http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/13063237/__Misstanden_in_Europa__.html

Then.. "putting in discussion"; read; "mutually reinforcing" is said which means they WILL go through with their plan, one way or the other. Please note, this is an AND-AND equation not an OR-OR.
Of course there's still some independence right now, but how much in the future? When the focus is centralisation?
This remark strikes me as disingenious:

As a general principle, democratic control and accountability should occur at the level at which the decisions are taken. This implies relying on the European Parliament as regards accountability for decisions at European level but also maintaining and securing the pivotal role of national parliaments, as appropriate. page 8 chapter IV.

since it is not consistent with:

An integrated financial framework must comprise a single supervisory authority, a common resolution framework implemented by a common resolution authority, and national deposit guarantee schemes built on common standards. page 2 Chapter I.

The reality of the ESM being beyond any parliamentary or even judicial control of ANYONE, hammers this point home. I.o.w. it's a genuine concern, not just an uncomfortable feeling.

Like I said, I'm dutch. We've got a culture of saying things in the open and we require a two way street way of governing. Right now our own democracy is facing a crisis, not in the least because of the (partial ?) transferrance of accountabillity. I'm also very sceptical as a person towards larger government structures because it invariably goes wrong and becomes crony-ism if there's no proper mechanism in place to ensure accountabillity. That's my main critique. How Belgium is run as a country is not my idea of how the EU should be organised. And of course I try to regard issues by what ppl. DO and not what they SAY.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:13 | 2885772 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

BTW, do you know the history of your country?
You were together with Burgundy, Austria, Spain, under the rule of the Holy Roman Emperor, England, France and in a secession war with Belgium. And you still have remnant colonies of your imperial past.
You invented the stock market, the exchange based bonds market and the multinational. It's a fluke of history that you don't own New York (New Amsterdam) anymore.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:54 | 2885800 Reptil
Reptil's picture

LOL Yes I know it very well. Distant relatives and my direct forefathers played an extensive part in that colonial chapter.

I suggest you study the VOC and WIC history. They were TRADE organisations, not empire builders until very late in that period. Their organisation (of the VOC - which was different from the WIC) organised their "control" over Indonesia's trade very differently than the English organised India.
No trading NY was not a fluke of history. Genocide wasn't a dutch trait in those days, so America had a very different shine to it. it was full of native americans.

Yes, we're traders. We still are. We're not megalomaniac empire builders, like Van Rompuy, Verhofstadt and consorts. The dutch ALWAYS regarded a synergy between the coutries they exploited and themselves, they didn't go around burning shit to the ground, apart from the expedition to Atjeh at the turn of the twentieth century when they were challenged in a strategic position. (N-Sumatra) By then (1860-1920) they were involved in nation building in Indonesia, but this was mostly by construction of infrastructure and organising plantations (note NO slave labour ever took place under the VOC rule)

IN FACT YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT: The way the dutch organised and succesfully run Indonesia (Nederlands-Indië) was by allowing the different cultures of the islands to coëxist, without forcing their morals, or even extensive control on them. They even intermarried, because they became inhabitants of that new country, instead of colonialists aching for home, like the british.

No for the EU federalists, you'd have to look at the Belgium state, to see the way they organise their corrupt mess, to know the merit of these men. There's weak dutch, and some are traitors, and compulsive liers, but they're far more "in your face"  and "methodical" than what's going on in Brussels. That's our culture, where wasting something is ETERNAL SIN. While in Belgium it's the order of the day.

FUNNY how you try to compare a FEUDAL SOCIETY LIKE THE HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE WAS with the present day, since they are hurtling the peoples of europe towards debt slavery. 700.000 out of 2 milj. homeowners in the Netherlands that bought a house after the year 2000 are now underwater. Of course this was predictable, but it's also a direct consequence of choosing to spend the cash on the ESM and tossing it with the other billions into the black hole with hungry bankrupt banks at it's bottom.

OUR CASH WASTED WHILE IT COULD'VE BEEN USED FOR GOOD

I'll leave you with a few words.
"now is our fatherland Europe, our anthem Ode to Joy, our flag sky blue flag with twelve stars"

o__0

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:04 | 2885829 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

LOL +1 and you were also the guys that maintained that it's perfectly normal and traditional to have trade relations with countries at war with you and/or the leader of your alliance. Thanks for the tips.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:48 | 2885904 Reptil
Sat, 10/13/2012 - 21:21 | 2885940 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Two euro-boys, arguing, haranguing each other over lost empire, the squandered riches and prestige...lamenting to each other that if only their vision of centrally planned economy had been imposed.

lol...it really doesn't get any better.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 22:06 | 2885983 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

I got it:-)  When Caligula was assassinated in the "grotte" from the palace, the Senate thought they were a "shoe in".

 Low and behold, the " Praetorian Guard" had wisked away, " Claudius" to fill the vacuum.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 22:14 | 2886003 nmewn
nmewn's picture

SWRichmond said it best.

The EU is "refined fascism" to me. Let the locals bicker and protest "down there" while we attempt to control the "direction" from on high.

Ever since Costa v ENEL in the European Court it has been a moot point of "law". Germany, France etal are not sovereign nations at all...they are vassal states to the EU.

I would have thought my "brilliant cousins" from across the pond would have figgered it out by now ;-)

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 22:55 | 2886033 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

nmewn you are a "Brilliant man".  Are you giving the likes of " Herman Van Rompey" credit? I as well, have some Family in England.

   I think people are con/fused. There is a < European Union & European Commision > President.

  The later being " Jose Manuel Barroso".  They are both "technocratic" ILK. Who yields the most power is to confuse the masses.

  They are both "liberal drips".   Barroso gets the group together, and Van Rompey legislates it. HYPOTHETICALLY

  "Refined Facism" is correct. Yer damned if you do, and damned, if you don't.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 23:14 | 2886078 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I am a simple observant man...like most of us here.

Credit and accolades are earned. They are never a birth right. Van Rompuy is just the latest in a long line statists intent on enriching themselves and their cronies at the expense of the producers of society...in this topic, it is Europe.

The dreams of the monarchies who inhabit the place called europe (STILL at others expense) have never left...only morphed into pleasing smiles instead of public scowls, a few more platitudes and even more promises of reform. My forefathers left that place over two centuries ago and never looked back.

We didn't want government sanctioned religion, government sanctioned theft for "the common good" with an elitist class of overlords telling us what that common good was.

Yet, it has found us again and still we will never submit to it. I take solace in the fact that I am not alone ;-)

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 01:00 | 2886180 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

   Thanks nmewn. I can spell backwards now. 

           ( just joking)

 I have to admit, your Gramatical Educate, is "spot on". You are a person that pushes for "excellence".

  You do it quietly. 

 

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 04:16 | 2886289 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I'm not arguing, I'm probing and trying to understand.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 11:39 | 2887279 Reptil
Reptil's picture

I am arguing. I think there should be more arguing, more participation. The idea of Verhofstadt that taxation from a centralised Brussels will lead to more participation is true, but it is also doesn't guarantee that critique will be heard or included in descision making.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 17:58 | 2885666 alagon
alagon's picture

The balkanization of the EU is imminent.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:03 | 2885673 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Centralize --> Decentralize --> Centralize --> Decentralize ... etc

 

That's all there is to it.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:09 | 2885681 Clint Liquor
Clint Liquor's picture

Is there any chance at all people will learn from the past? And what is the definition of insanity?

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 18:37 | 2885728 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 

 


Hypocrisy at its finest..

Obama's credit card from Bank of China still working 

Nigga please!

CHINESE VICE PRESIDENT XI JINPING ARRIVES IN WASHINGTON FOR FIRST WHITE HOUSE

 

When a US administration knocks out the Japanese Egg Roll for Chinese Egg Roll dish, no budget is needed. Spend by cultivating growth & dependency. [Ó, shì de].

By borrowing china money to keep the buying addicts fixated will keep the economy growing. China expect country policy to be mandate in USA. No Freebie money without policy strings. No cultural change, no new money.. 


Crisis: If the European economy goes down, so does the US.. Bullshit. The banking leeches go down, we can pick up some nice property on pennies for the Euro. End of story. Enjoy the scam unfold before your eyes.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:24 | 2885779 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Awe, come on guys! It's been 2.5 millineums, can't we all just get along? / heavy sarc  --v

                                                                                                                                                              The European Union is a horrible, stupid project.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:39 | 2885794 thomasincincy
thomasincincy's picture

On the surface, one can easily point a finger. It's when digging deeper you realize it's a pretty fucked up world and has been for a long time. Stay away from eclipses or it could be a life changing event

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:17 | 2885847 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

I was thinking "gamma ray bursts", but your idea works also. ;-)   http://www.howitworksdaily.com/space/could-a-supernova-destroy-earth/

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 22:00 | 2885986 TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

It's about human (primitive) desires for totalitarism. History is plenty of it. They should evolve for the sake of us all.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 19:27 | 2885787 Tombstone
Tombstone's picture

So what are Switzerland's many big contributions to the world?  Central planning never has and never will work, especially in a country that has proven for 200 years that free markets and capitalism work best.  So what has been Americas' contributions to the world?  At least 100,000 times greater than anything from the Swiss.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 20:40 | 2885889 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

And the US destruction throughout the world is at least 500,000 times worse than from the Swiss.

And its theft is millions of times worse.

Wake up little tomato plant.

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 06:07 | 2886586 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I guess that the primary industry there being banking and it's travesty of debt consolidation into gold hasn't been theft upon other people then, right? The Swiss can preach about how honest and trustworthy they are, but there's a reason they built the country and it's populace into a fortress.

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