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Guest Post: Let's Talk About Facts, Not Fear

Tyler Durden's picture


Via Simon Black of SovereignMan blog,

[Editor's note: Today's letter is an excerpt from the edition of Sovereign Man: Confidential that will be published this afternoon.]

Let’s step away from the noise for a moment and look at the big picture. This isn’t about doom and gloom, or fear, but objective facts.

Undoubtedly, the Western hierarchy dominated by the United States is in a completely unsustainable situation. Across the West, national governments have obligations they simply cannot meet—both to their citizens and their creditors.

In the UK, national government borrowing is already 22% higher than at this same point last year, a record year for borrowing. Meanwhile, the UK’s budget deficit for August hit a record high.

In France, the new government of Francois Hollande passed a ‘historic’ and ‘austere’ budget that is still posting a deficit of 3% of GDP. That’s including a 75% tax on incomes exceeding one million euros.

In Japan, the government is mulling legislation that will fund 40% of the budget with ‘deficit-financing’ bonds.

In the United States, the government recently hit $16 trillion in debt about six weeks ago, after reaching the $15 trillion mark last November. It took 200 years to accumulate the first trillion in debt and 286 days to accumulate the most recent trillion.

Each of these countries has a debt level that exceeds 90% of GDP– the historic point of no return. More importantly, each of these countries also has to borrow money simply to pay interest on money they’ve already borrowed.

This is important because it makes the problems multiple. At the beginning of the 1780s, the French monarchy was spending around 30% of tax revenue to service its debt. Eight years later when the revolution began, they were spending 62%.

The next 26-years in France were filled with internal civil war, external war with Austria and Prussia, hyperinflation, crime, social unrest, and Robespierre’s genocidal dictatorship.

In the 19th century, the Ottoman Empire faced an even steeper financial decline. In just 11-years, the Ottoman central government went from spending 17% of its tax revenue on interest payments to spending over 52% of its tax revenue on interest payments. Then came default, in just eleven years.

In the US, debt service is also rising. According to the Government Accountability Office’s figures, the US government was spending 9% of revenue to service the debt in 2002. Throughout most of the last decade, in fact, the US government spent roughly 9% of its tax revenue on debt service.

But in 2009, the figure hit 9.75%, then 10.5% in 2010, then 11.5% in 2011. For the fiscal year that just closed on September 30, the Bureau of Public Debt reported cumulative interest expense of $375.8 billion on income of $2.45 trillion. This is a rate of 15.3%. See the trend?

But it’s not just debt burdens that are problematic. ‘Rich’ countries in the West are also rapidly debasing their currencies, spawning tomes of regulatory impediments, restricting the freedoms of their citizens, aggressively expanding the powers of the state, and engaging in absurd military folly from Libya to the South China Sea.

Once again, this is not the first time history has seen such conditions. In our own lifetimes, we’ve seen the collapse of the Soviet Empire, the tragi-comical hyperinflation in Zimbabwe, and the unraveling of Argentina’s millennial crisis. Plus we can study what happened when empires from the past collapsed.

The conditions are nearly identical. Is our civilization so different that we are immune to the consequences?

12 Lets talk about facts, not fear


Probably not. And the cycle that has befallen so many great powers before us– decline, collapse, turmoil, and reset– will likely happen in our time too.

But it’s not the end of the world. Not by a long shot.  It’s a complete reshuffling of the deck. A brand new game with brand new rules. And the old way of doing things (like printing money backed by nothing) will be resigned to history’s waste bin.

One of the things that we see frequently in history is that this transition occurs gradually, then very rapidly.

Think about the Soviet Union, which you may recall. One day, they were the greatest threat to the planet. The next day, the wall came down. It happened so quickly. It’s like what Hemingway said about bankruptcy– it happens slowly at first, then all at once.

Unfortunately we don’t know where we are along this path. And we won’t know until we’re over the cliff on the way down. Everything will feel normal until then.

22 Lets talk about facts, not fear


Argentina’s millennial crisis is a great example of this. Argentines woke up in December 2001 and everything still felt normal. Within a few weeks, they had defaulted on their debt, the currency collapsed, and people were out in the streets doing battle with the police.

But since we don’t know precisely when things may happen, it’s a sharp idea to take responsible action that makes sense no matter what, even if all of the world’s problems are miraculously solved. Things like:

- Owning gold and silver (and storing it abroad)
- Acquiring agricultural property overseas.
- Holding savings in a strong, stable foreign bank
- Looking at healthy economies for top quality investment and business opportunities
- Improving tax efficiency and asset protection with proper foreign structures
- Developing relationships with like-minded people
- Learning valuable skills
- Traveling a bit and exploring potential relocation options
- Increasing your digital privacy
- Considering dual residency and nationality options

All of these steps make sense no matter what happens. Yet, should the thesis hold, and we indeed find ourselves on the precipice, then you and your family will be in the best possible position. And that too is a fact.


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Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:27 | 2890998 TheGermanGuy
TheGermanGuy's picture

In 2009 we were standing at the edge of the abyss, since then we have taken a significant step forward.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:32 | 2891104 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture


Into the valley of death they rode......


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:34 | 2891127 zapdude
zapdude's picture


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:43 | 2891338 Ham-bone
Ham-bone's picture

Record debt load enabled by record low rates = rising interest payments on the debt that must be permenantly counteracted by lower interest rates.  We, like Japan, will never see rising interest rates so long as the Fed exists.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:08 | 2891423 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Don’t forget the debt held by the public is 74.2%, and the total debt for 2012 is 104.8%.  Translation, the US federal government could renege on its social security and Medicare obligations in order to survive.  Obama would do this in a heartbeat if it meant more of “his people” getting another round of EBT cards.

Table 7-1

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:13 | 2891439 Fleecer
Fleecer's picture

"- Holding savings in a strong, stable foreign bank"

I'd love to see this list of banks....

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:42 | 2891524 jayman21
jayman21's picture

yep - me too.  Today's friends can be tomorrow's enemy.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:44 | 2891530 knukles
knukles's picture

We're Humerikuns n' histree don't hupply tuh us

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:53 | 2891538 redpill
redpill's picture

That's the problem, by the time these madmen are done the "safe havens" will be few and far between.  US Gov barely had to lift a finger and Switzerland eagerly rolled over and eviscerated their long-standing principles of banking privacy without so much as a second thought.  The US is one of the few countries in the world that forces its citizens to pay taxes on income earned abroad.  The noose is tigthening, and the message to the wanna-be Simon Blacks of the world is: "you can run, but you can't hide."

Before Panama rolled over for the US Gov, Simon Black was hot to trot on them, suggesting people should move there and get double citizenship.  Woops.  He doesn't mention them anymore.  Now it's all about Chile, which I agree looks like an attractive country in terms of economy, liberty, and geography.  But it was also the same country that was once ruled under iron fist by Augusto Pinochet.  The tide can always turn.  Maybe if you're a Jim Rogers you have the financial stability and mobility that means you can pick up and move to Singapore or wherever at the drop of a hat, but for most people, even those in the investment class, foreign relocation one time would be a huge undertaking, much less doing it every time the local political wind changed.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:53 | 2891566 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

@ redpill

But, if you do it right (legally) you can hide...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:22 | 2891648 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

Meanwhile the TSA groper goons are going strong.

You know nothing's changed as long as the crotch grabbing child molesters are still on the taxpayer's dime.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:57 | 2891577 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

HSBC, Standard Chartered, JP Morgan/Chase, Bank of North Dakota.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:50 | 2891341 Monedas
Monedas's picture

No South American Generalisimo, no Islamic mullah, no Afrikan tribal chief, no Slavic peasant, no Teutonic fuhrer, no Asian tiger, no Democrat pedophile, no English labor slut .... has taken Communism as far as the North Koreans have !  They are truly in a class by themselves !  

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:52 | 2891560 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

North Korea is the worst hell-hole on Earth.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:00 | 2891596 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Don't knock it till you try it....

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:16 | 2891633 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

But Obama's sure trying...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:53 | 2891374 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

It is human nature to allow recurring crises to arise, due to the arrogance of our species thinking "this time will be different".

It is not. It never was, and never will be.

The only variance is when the realization of exact repetition, becomes the inflection point for panic, to avoid certain catastrophe. That is the only skew. Since the events that lead to the inflection points are exact replica's on the whole, the only differences are how the end result is dealt with at that exact time in history.

The results are clear in the chart above, which also proves history not only rhymes, in fact, much to the contrary, it repeats...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:07 | 2891764 upWising
upWising's picture

NO!! NO!!  NO!!!  A thousand times NO!!   Us Amercians ARE different! 

First, we have white skin and a red, white & blue flag.  THAT makes us different!

But above all, "Amercia is Jesus' Favorite Country! ©"

I know perfectly well that when Jesus comes back, he will come back to Amercia first, and he'll be wearing US Army Fatigues and drivin' a Black Hummer, and be protected by the Secret Service.  How do I know?  Because I know Jesus has always been an Amercian FIRST and FOREMOST and because in my Bible Jesus talks in Perfect Amercian English, not with a phony British accent.


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 17:16 | 2891924 knukles
knukles's picture




(face planted in hands, silently sobbing)

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 17:17 | 2891927 Whiner
Whiner's picture

When The Author and Director takes the stage, the play is over. He inaugurates His own Kingdom. That's when men will want to die, but cannot. He will not bear a flag pin in His lapel, only scars in His hands, side and feet. No one will then be saved for the judgment is come. America, pass with the goats on His left to eternal darkness and fire. "I never knew you."

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 22:58 | 2892992 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Yeah, well wait until the Avengers show up!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 21:33 | 2892777 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Nope, that's the other guy and his cap will be blue.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:42 | 2891852 max2205
max2205's picture

If everyone quit paying their bills for 2 months, the whole fucking thing would implode...ben or not

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 23:47 | 2893075 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

or don't pay your taxes until they are actually due....April 15th...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:06 | 2891421 Stock Tips Inve...
Stock Tips Investment's picture

The debt problem is huge in Japan and the major economies of the West. However, the issue is more complicated attack the origin of this debt: the government deficit. Governments can balance their books through three mechanisms. Raise taxes, cut expenses or a combination of both. Any of these mechanisms will lead to a reduction in economic activity. That means, slower growth or recession. It means fewer subsidies, less support to critical sectors such as health and pensions. Finally, mean, lower quality of life. In the West, no one seems willing to take this cost. What is the solution? ... Reread the post.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:04 | 2891601 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Overhead is considered "an asset" for accounting purposes. And who never gets rid of anything? The Government. This thing was a set up for the oil monopolists from the get go. Move along!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 17:18 | 2891929 knukles
knukles's picture

I keep tryin' to get my wife to give away a whole household of shit and she won't do it either.
Can I get a grant for that?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 22:59 | 2892994 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

No, but you can be on a TV show.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 17:25 | 2891948 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

Can't we just print our way out of deficits?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 18:21 | 2892349 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Particularly apposite comment - remember that the Charge of the Light Brigade was organised by a High Command that really couldn't give a damn about casualty numbers - to them the "Lower Ranks" were just cannon fodder.

Notice the similarities in thinking between the (Politico-financial) High Command, and the rest of us right now?

We - the productive workforce, and the small (by their standards) investor class - we are "their" Cannon Fodder enabling their ultimate acquisitive Globalist gameplan.

And - they are winning hands down, and in reality, there isn't very much we can do about it under the present "contrived for their benefit" circumstances.

The Planetary "Working Population" are at a fork in the great road of time - do we submit to Global Serfdom, paying an ever rising tribute to "Those in Power", or are we going to see the equivalent of a Global Civil War? For the majority the final outcome - death - will be the same, but at least the second option might provide a more stable, more civil future for the survivors, and their dependents.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:35 | 2891158 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Haven't seen any "Always Falling Prices" ads from Walmart lately?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:07 | 2891606 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"free shipping." wait till Oracle by the largest manufacturing equipment supplier of all time called "Hewlett Packard." Stay long soybeans if they do...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:37 | 2891274 tickhound
tickhound's picture

LOL, funny, but not sure everyone got it.  Like, "everyday is better than the next."

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:42 | 2891332 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

I'm starting to think these collapse posts aren't designed to save us. That they are created to manipulate the GENPOP into acceptance of the artificial crisis.

One big PSYOP the majority are buying into.

Lowered fucking expectations at it's best.

Now we understand what the plan is. We have a rough estimate of the timeline, real fucking soon.

So bend over kiddies cause we all gonna take it up the ass.

On the positive side it too will pass, in a decade or so.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:22 | 2891463 CPL
CPL's picture

Does it look like TPTB have their shit together?


No they do not.  What you are seeing is panic in expensive suits pretending they can steer a train.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:55 | 2891574 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I agree CPL.

It is up to each us to protect ourselves and our families.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:15 | 2891630 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

So Government really is "the problem and not the solution" as Ronald Reagan famously stated at his inauguration.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:43 | 2891708 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Reagan sure changed his tune after they shot him.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 18:05 | 2892301 sharonsj
sharonsj's picture

No, the corporations are the problem and the government is their slut.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:18 | 2891640 BeerBrewer09
BeerBrewer09's picture

agreed. +1

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:12 | 2891779 upWising
upWising's picture

"panic in expensive suits pretending they can steer a train."

Worse yet, the 'suits" are in the locomotive of the train which happens to be in the back of the train pushing.  The suits are looking out the "front" window (which is facing backwards), completely befuddled by why the train is going "backwards" and they are trying to find the "clutch" or the "gear shift" or SOMETHING, all without scuffing the Guccis.  


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:51 | 2891371 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

Simon says:

"And the old way of doing things (like printing money backed by nothing) will be resigned to history’s waste bin."

Interesting to write an entire article about history repeating itself, and then ignore the reality that history will continue to repeat itself.  "This time is different" is never really true, is it?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:18 | 2891638 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Yep. "Rumplestilksen." Again. There is no substitute for Gold Money. Period.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 17:28 | 2892023 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

I think Simon meant to say no printed currency without something to back it within our lifetime. We have to wait a few generations before the lesson is forgotten once again.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:27 | 2891000 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Ready the torches and pitchforks.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:28 | 2891002 Midas
Midas's picture

Uh, you forgot to mention your place in Chile.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:56 | 2891388 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Last week I went out and cleaned out the watch counter at Lord & Taylor.  Thanks for preppin' me, bro.

Simon Black: ZH's rendition of the Rick Roll.  hey Banzai, when do we get, "Hitler Finds Out The Guest Post He Just Clicked Into Is By Simon Black"?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:28 | 2891004 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

"It’s a complete reshuffling of the deck. A brand new game with brand new rules. And the old way of doing things (like printing money backed by nothing) will be resigned to history’s waste bin."


Bullshit. The history lesson will be forgotten few years afterwards. Humans crave for a status quo and will settle for the first opportunity to settle on one, regardless of how good it is.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:43 | 2891340 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


That has to be the funiest wrong headed thing I ever read.

Dude it's all FUCKING DIGITAL!

You don't need to back that with anything.

At least with paper you could wipe your ass or burn it.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:53 | 2891375 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

At least I'm not delusional about it.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:29 | 2891007 Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

But WHEN will it happen?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:48 | 2891048 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

As soon as you convert all your silver to paper... Not a minute before...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:40 | 2891305 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Yes, or better yet, why hasn't it happened already?  Plenty of former "market participants" have run for the hills, including me.

This breaks when:

  US Currency Collapses

  Bond rates spike

  The money comes out of the banks and into the "economy"

  Or some damn fool black swan happens.  Good luck forecasting that.

The best leave first.  Other than that, sabe dios. (Only the gods know)

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:42 | 2891329 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Why hasn't it happened yet?

Because the status quo is sticky. And, we have our best minds putting a lot of effort into delaying the inevitable. Not solving the problem, mind you, just delaying consequences.


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:45 | 2891346 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

And that's because every instant of delay amounts to more wealth flowing from the bottom to the top. Once the bottom is sufficiently drained, THEN the hammer comes down.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 18:35 | 2892377 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Nothing quite like "trickle UP economics", as long as you are at the top!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:21 | 2891457 PKF
PKF's picture

Mother Earth will hit the Reset Button....she does that every 26,000 years when she shrugs her shoulders and turns on her axis.  It might actually be fun. 

At least I won't have some walking texter slam into me anymore. 

Back to Basics will take on an entirely new the few who are left.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:44 | 2891343 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Cocaine, they say it will kill you

but they don't say when.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:48 | 2891716 AetosAeros
AetosAeros's picture

Abitdodgie- It will happen when you see the social unrest hit a serious breaking point; like when the local news or even national news displays an obvious criminal act of someone at mid level power. At the same time, there will be financial shenanigans the likes to which even Tyler won't be able to keep up with, nor present without the headline saying "Blatantly Fucked Again".  When it all goes into a whirlwind of crazy headlines, when money is being moved (gold/silver) and top level players suddenly step out of the limelight and throw the 'B' team out to field the questions...... Then we are really close. This will be followed by a semi-formal declaration of war with Iran/Syria/Santa's Elves. 

Then quiet. The final quiet. The moment where we all hold our collective breaths to see if the brakes are gonna hold.......................

Then the plunge. Make sure you have on clean underwear and both your -1B and reserve. Your gonna need it all.

Until then, try the veal.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:42 | 2891849 Imminent Collapse
Imminent Collapse's picture

+1 "Try the veal"  LMFAO

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:58 | 2891742 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

How about Nov. 7th 2012?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:15 | 2891789 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

Too early.


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 18:33 | 2892374 groundedkiwi
groundedkiwi's picture

When the ATMs stop working

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:29 | 2891008 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Sloooooooooooooooooow bleed, bitchez.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:50 | 2891365 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

"- Owning gold and silver (and storing it abroad)"


Yeah! Like in Texas in my back yard...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:03 | 2891412 savagegoose
savagegoose's picture

i like plan of storing abroad, but then 2 is better, just keep them in differnt houses.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:58 | 2891582 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

@ Jonas P

+ 1

Yes, if you live in TX and have some land, that is one of the very best things you can do.  Just remember REAL WELL you buried it!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 22:21 | 2891910 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Every now and again we hear about some farmer in the UK digging up a buried hoard of coins and jewelry and plate that has been lying in the ground, some of it since Roman times, others from the Viking age, the time of the Norman conquest, the middle ages, buried by its owners to keep it safe from marauders or the divine right of kings.  Neither the the rightful owners nor their heirs ever came back for those hoards because whatever they feared came to pass, or they died suddenly taking the knowledge of their hiding place with them.  

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:01 | 2891750 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

Abroad?  I read that as overboard!

Long scuba gear.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 18:36 | 2892381 klockwerks
klockwerks's picture

YESm Texas in your back yard. I'm there. Almost time based upon the silver price today to get another monster box. Getting to old to dig

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:30 | 2891022 philosoraptor
philosoraptor's picture

Hey, hath no fear, paper money can increase in (real) value.

When the truth is stranger than fiction...

*Jesus wept*

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:33 | 2891108 zapdude
zapdude's picture

The collapse is slowly accelerating and I believe is irreversible at this point. 

We blew through all the clear warning signs and gaurd rails (JFK, gold window closed in '71, 9/11 inside job, Ron Paul '08 & '12), and will someday go airborne after we fly off the cliff.

Things will get much, much worse before they can begin to get better.

See you all at the bottom when we can rebuild.

Until then, prepare, stack, lock-n-load, and awaken others so they can do the same for themselves and their families.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:44 | 2891344 10mm
10mm's picture

Awake others?If they are still asleep by now it's too late.imho

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:45 | 2891349 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


You understand this is all planned out, right?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:55 | 2891386 zapdude
zapdude's picture

Yes, of course, but not everything has gone or will go according to plan. 

TPTB aren't infallible beings with unlimited knowledge, power & resources. 

I will resist, both passively and actively, their plan. 

I won't simply throw up my hands and say "What's the use, I can't do anything about it anyway, blah blah all the same stuff we've all heard from our spouses, family members, friends when they're confronted with this reality".

Die on my feet vs. on my knees.  Just sayin.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:59 | 2891592 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

Yes, there is a LOT we can do to prepare, it's just up to each of us.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 18:43 | 2892400 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Well seeing as the TBTF Brigade have first call on the World's largest Military / Industrial complex, for all intents and purposes they DO have "effectively" unlimited resources, or at least far more than sufficient resources to impose their will where they choose to impose it (i.e. the planetary locations that have asset value to them and their hangers-on)

Many WILL die on their feet, and they will be dying for NO gain for themselves or their dependents.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 03:55 | 2893318 stuckonarock
stuckonarock's picture

If you think you can or if you think you cant....


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:04 | 2891414 prains
prains's picture

Ask yourself "where will I get to in three tanks of gas" when the lights go out;




1. first tank you'll already have

2. the second you'll have to steal

3. the third you'll have to kill for



If after the third tank you are not completely isolated from mankind, my wishes go out to you and your families

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 00:10 | 2893121 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

I can be at my 'rally point' in about 1/4 tank....from there it is all covered. Screw the zombie sheeple....let them come.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 01:09 | 2893189 prains
prains's picture

siege defense is pretty 15th century but good luck

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:33 | 2891120 rosethorn
rosethorn's picture

Agree with the analysis but not the recommendations for action.  Going overseas isn't going to reduce your risk; instead it increases.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:44 | 2891342 Bindar Dundat
Bindar Dundat's picture

Canada is the place to stable and easy to get to.  Buy a vacation home and stock it up....

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:41 | 2891520 Blue Vervain
Blue Vervain's picture

Cf Haneke's Time of the Wolf to see how that could play out.



Mon, 10/15/2012 - 18:10 | 2892323 prains
prains's picture

Cold Weather is the great minimizer, like i said "how isolated will you be in three tanks of gas?"

Just bring a warm sleeping bag

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:33 | 2891125 alstry
alstry's picture

The fact is the world is bankrupt and technology is rapidly replacing most industrial jobs.

The only reason most have a perception of wealth is we are fraudulently propping up a rapidly failing system.

When everyone is milking off a fraudulent world to maintain their control, you know its an

Unless we start putting the system before ourselves, there will soon be nothing for anyone to milk off

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:49 | 2891362 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture



What is money? Money is a symbol. A symbol for what? For all human Time-binding faculties; animals have it not. No doubt bees producegoods—honey, but these goods of the bees are not wealth until man puts his hands on them. Money is not edible or habitable, it is worthless if the other fellow refuses to take it. The reality behind the symbol is human agreement, or else the value behind the symbol isdoctrinal. Fido does not discriminate between A and B, and B and C (see the Anthropometer). He worships the symbol alone. "In Gold we trust" is his motto, with all its destructive consequences. Man must not forget the reality which is behind the symbol. It is amusing to see how the so-called "practical man" deals, mostly, with fictitious values, for which he is willing to live and die. When he has the upper-hand and ignorantly plays with symbols, disregarding the realities behind the symbols, of course, he drives civilization to disasters. Life is full of them.

We see also the utter folly of anyone making a race to accumulate symbols, worthless in themselves, destroying the mental and moral values which are behind them. For it is useless to own a mentally disorganized world, such "ownership" is a fiction, no matter how stable it may look on paper. Commercialism, as a creed, is such a folly.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:03 | 2891597 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

@ Gully

"Commercialism, as a creed, is such a folly."

Unless, of course, you are selling spare parts...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:49 | 2891717 Overfed
Overfed's picture

OK, Gully, stop bogarting the pipe.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:18 | 2891451 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture



"Unless we start putting the system before ourselves, there will soon be nothing for anyone to milk off"

My how time changes look at Democrats of old

Ask not what your country can do for you

This speech was delivered by John F Kennedy at his inauguration in Washington on January 20 1961. 

Income Tax Cut, JFK Hopes To Spur Economy 1962

vs. democrats of today

Hillary Clinton: Raise Taxes on the Rich Everywhere

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:07 | 2891607 pufferfish
pufferfish's picture

Agreed, even the creative & media industries. Music is 'free', as are movies, bloggs are replacing, in some spheres media (good & bad), photography, even being a model (shoots use to take all day for a daily rate, now, just a couple of hours for an hourly rate).

The return of real value, food, shelter, safety, sex...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:34 | 2891134 10mm
10mm's picture

Except this time(it's gonna be spectacular).NWO 

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:36 | 2891202 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture



Why worry? Let it all collapse – it will be a good thing and everything always reverts to its natural state of equilibrium, no? Water finds its own level etc., etc. The laws of nature and the laws of physics always win – yes?

If you are relying on government handouts or relying on someone else then you wouldn’t be here under the laws of nature. Now I am not talking about “grandma” mind you (even wild dogs in Africa care for the older ones in the pack that can’t hunt). And, Hyenas well …. That is just disgusting -Damn!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:37 | 2891269 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

I've scoped out foreign property in NJ.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:26 | 2891473 PKF
PKF's picture

Damn, that was funny.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:38 | 2891842 Coldsun
Coldsun's picture

Beware of the roaming bands of douche bags. Pomade, Jagermeister and protein powder will be valuable trade items.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:39 | 2891322 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Until a critical number of people find themselves without food and shelter, the system will hobble along. At that point the state's apparatus will kick in full time to ensure that fear will overcome the hunger pangs in your stomach. Is a North Korean scenario so impossible for the rest of us or our children one day?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:45 | 2891350 odatruf
odatruf's picture

It won't be North Korea. There won't be starvation. The system will be replaced with another one.  Probably better in some ways and worse in others.

Food will be more expensive relative to other things, but not impossible for most people. Other than fear and anxiety, life won't be too much different for the vast majority of us. For a very few, it will.


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:52 | 2891373 Chump
Chump's picture

Wake up.  You have no clue what's coming, and neither does anyone else.  There won't be starvation?  How the hell do you know?  Another system will just spring up?  How the hell do you know?

You don't.  And if you don't prepare for the possibility that you're wrong then you will be the evidence against your own assertions.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:32 | 2891827 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Why won't there be starvation?  Because the fucking farmers, cattlemen and grocery production companies will still want to perform their specialized service in exchange - either directly or through some other store of value - for the specialized service of someone who does something that they don't do.  To wit: I own a medial practice.  Do you think there will still be demand for my service later?  Do you think the farm up the road, and there is one, might want to swap services?  Might the office supply company across the street, and there is one, might also want to do the same?

Don't be a fucking panic. There will be hardship, but it won't be the end of the world.

As for me, I've just spent the time in between my two posts putting up apple sauce. 10 quarts.  Sure, I can't survive on that.  But I did something.  And I've already canned tomatoes and cukes this fall.  How about you?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 19:15 | 2892464 Chump
Chump's picture

So just to summarize, there won't be starvation during a financial collapse, because farmers will still exist.

Fair enough, are they still getting their regular diesel, fertilizer, and feed deliveries?  Since they apparently value some sort of vague specialized service, are they still going to produce on a massive scale such that our JIT supply chain can continue unabated?  Grocery store shelves all stocked up and such?  I'm trying to spark some thought experiments here for you: what happens if, say, the supply chain is interrupted for 3 days?  Does the average city dweller have both the supplies and wherewithall to endure the ensuing chaos?  If you think so, kudos for you, but that sort of hope goes beyond optimism and enters the realm of fantasy.

Before you make more assumptions about me, of course I'm prepared, so of course I'm not "a fucking panic."  A fucking panic is what comes for those who aren't prepared (sort of tautology there ya know).

Congrats on the canning.  It's very rewarding to grow your own food and store it yourself isn't it?  In that sense, you're part of the's the 99% who have no clue and are completely unprepared that worry me.  And yes, you will be very much in demand for medical services.  Congrats as well on already having one of the most valuable skills that will soon be in short supply and high demand (because of all that ensuing chaos and such).

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:55 | 2891382 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

+1  I do not agree, but on a Monday I need the optimism

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:52 | 2891372 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Of course not. Also, all of those redneck gun owners? They will mostly side with the state, as they know no better earthly religion. The idea that the masses of them will take on the state in a civil war is fantasy, as they're too busy tearing up during the daily rendition of "God Bless America" brought to you by the 7th inning stretch (and 9/11).

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:58 | 2891398 thomasincincy
thomasincincy's picture

I have to hold my hand over my mouth and laugh

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:41 | 2891324 stiler
stiler's picture

it's already happening. we're in it and you can't see something when you're in it.

this is the time to ready yourself for whatever comes. hey, good times could be worse than bad (ultimately) or good times with the sudden slam.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:45 | 2891347 DowTheorist
DowTheorist's picture

Such macro economic analysis is not ignored by the gold market. Thus, it is in a primary bull market, all recent weakness notwithstanding. Eventually the last man standing will be gold.


As to the entrails of gold's primary bull market and what to expect:


Current gold weakness may be a second, and probably last opportunity to get aboard.

Here you can find more details as to how "to buy the dip", with explanation as to the technically effective stops and more:

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:47 | 2891353 squexx
squexx's picture

I found an 8+ year old grocery store recipt on the weekend. Wow...

1st thing I noticed, my wife and I have hardly changed anything about our buying and eating habits.

The 2nd thing I noticed was the crazy incrases we have had in prices.

1 can Campbells Vegetable soup was listed as $0.89. We now pay $2.19 for the same can.

Fresh Haddock Fillets were $3.99lb. Now $7.99lb.

4 litres of Skim Milk was $ $7.59.

1 loaf of whole wheat bread was $ $2.99.

Fresh Green Pepper was $ $3.99lb.

Canned tomato juice was $0.99 a $2.29 a can.

Obviously there was waaaaay more on the recipt, but I just can't believe the inflation. I'm sure many people have had to stop buying items the are used to buying, and change their life styles a great deal. I have not gotten to that point yet, but I'm feeling the pinch. It sucks.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:59 | 2891399 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Yet today's prices will seem dirt cheap in no time.

Right now I'm in the midst of harvesting our bumper crop of sumac seeds for jelly. Never done it before, (and with Fukushima still spewing, maybe never again (thanks for a cesium-free year, drought!)) but I'm trying to get as much of all types of food put up that I can.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:10 | 2891435 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Dude, that food's expired!  Don't eat it!!!


Send it to Greece so THEY can eat it.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:27 | 2891474 resurger
resurger's picture

i eat one meal/day now ... getting healthy, saving money!

Everything is getting expensive!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:31 | 2891490 obejoyful
obejoyful's picture

And the FED says with a straight face there is moderate inflation. 

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:04 | 2891600 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

After many years i still pay the same for my deodorant. But my wife left me, i'm fired and dogs come after me when i'm out.....

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:49 | 2891359 Chump
Chump's picture

"All of these steps make sense no matter what happens. Yet, should the thesis hold, and we indeed find ourselves on the precipice, then you and your family will be in the best possible position. And that too is a fact."

No, almost none of these steps make sense if we are truly facing the collapse of our society.

Have savings in a foreign bank?  Store PMs abroad?  Own agricultural property overseas?  Sure, since I can obviously don my jet pack and just shoot all over the world at my leisure when all western economies are imploding.  Yes, I'll just make sure entire continents separate me from my stored wealth and labor, because of my jet pack.  And is this written from a US-centric POV?  Should Canadians consider a foreign bank account in the US while Americans consider one in France while the French look to Canada?

The only suggestions that make sense are learning valuable skills and developing relationships with like minded people.  These are also things that most people do naturally, although the "valuable skills" part maybe not so much.

Not a single mention of having even a few days worth of water on hand, or the ability to filter more.  Or food.  Or weapons to protect yourself.  Or any number of things that are way, way higher on the list than opening a foreign bank account or sending PMs off to a "vault" in another country.

I would love to know about some businesses I can buy in various Eastern European countries though!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:03 | 2891415 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Wait... you mean you still read Simon Says?

I just come to these threads for the "New & Improved! (now with pre-release!)" nonsense. Something about these people who resist the state by sucking up to it that just tickles my funny bone.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:20 | 2891453 Chump
Chump's picture

Sometimes he tops himself, as you've parodied before very well.  "Today, Luxembourg, thence off to check on some new Swiss vaults, thence off to purchase a few local businesses in Ukraine, thence off to the mountains of Chile, and thence next week..."

Reads like a metes and bounds description of bullshit.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 17:43 | 2892265 CPL
CPL's picture

"So I rolled over this morning off my gold bed, with a snap of my fingers my 11/10 wife concubine blew me.  Shit was so cash.  Arm wrestled my pet gorilla and rode Brighteyes, my thoroughbred sparkles Unicorn (sup /b/ronies), over the skittles and diamond ranch to my jetpack maintained by my fleet of PhD's.  The Jetpack ride was bumpy being so heavily burdened with money it was hard to stay aloft while raining my newsletter on captial managers all over the world.  All 19000 of them, we tight like gan'sta an'shit."



Mon, 10/15/2012 - 21:22 | 2892435 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Fleet seems the wrong collective noun; how about "Consensus" (OK not likely!), or "Quorum"? How about "Society" (since Ph.D. holders rather like to form, or be associated with, Learned Societies??

Specially for those with a Major University Economics Ph.D. - "a Disagreement", or maybe "a Myopia" might be quite the title . . . .

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 10:00 | 2894458 CPL
CPL's picture

Flock of ducks

Pod of PhD's?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:09 | 2891431 zapdude
zapdude's picture

These steps don't make sense for a lot of people who are awake and aware, but of more modest means.

When the doors get chained and padlocked from the outside, you're going to have a difficult time getting to your international stash of wealth.  You better have one awesome escape pod that can get you out once the exits get blocked.  And if the US is globally renounced due to the inevitable currency collapse, why would the foreign lands honor your property rights?  Goodbye gold, real estate, businesses.  All your goodies are belong to us.

The rest of us will have to gut it out one way another, and the preparations made now will be extremely important when its time.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 17:40 | 2892263 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

How much for the jet pack. Does that come in size M?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 19:00 | 2892439 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Time to learn to sail?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:49 | 2891363 MFLTucson
MFLTucson's picture

I bet Biden would laugh his balls off if he read this!!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:55 | 2891381 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

If Biden could resd...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:29 | 2891478 eduard khil
eduard khil's picture

Or if he still had balls.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:59 | 2891390 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture




I like this idea of gaining at great cost some sort of 'property' and keeping it a long way away from yourself, or you from it ... property you cannot see, where you hope nobody steals or destroys or squats on it ... all this while the world economy unravels.


 - Presumably the caretake of the properties in question is reliable/trustworthy (not),


 - Presumably the government is not bent on expropriation of the property of foreigners (as has happened thousands of times before),


 - Presumably the Americans can get transportation out of the country when needed! This is a big 'if'. Remember the movie 'Casablanca'? Rick needed those letters of transit to get out of Morocco.


Add a fuel shortage and bankrupt airlines, panicked governments and anti-American fury ... getting overseas or being allowed to leave the country might become very difficult.


Best to start thinking outside the 'stuff' box and looking instead for what can be carried inside the mind. Leave the poisoned dog food for the Chinese.



Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:10 | 2891429 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

You're going to hurt yourself if you keep applying logic to Simon's... (whatever you want to call it).

It's almost like he wants to trick you into losing all of your assets, no?

It reminds me of the fraud Keiser with his "bust JPM crusade." All it did was to help JPM when people like Mr. Gerald Celente tried to execute the strategy. Instead of busting JPM, they fucking Corzined Celente, stealing both his PMs as well as all the cash in his trading account.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:58 | 2891392 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

The six causes are good laugthers.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 01:10 | 2892997 prains
prains's picture


where will you be in three tanks of gas once the lights go out????


i suspect as far as you'll get is bingbongpow province, goog fwucking wuck     hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

chop suey 4 uuuuuuuuuu

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:58 | 2891395 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture



If we are REALLY going to talk facts and not fear then people should realize they are and will continue to be debt slaves for years to come. Why? Simple we can't DEFAULT unless the politicians do so willingly which they won't because of the power that money brings.  If people really riot like some have been threatening they will be squashed they didn't buy all those hollow points for nothing. The best you could do for the time being is vote against the people who will continue the spending which no one really wants to do they talk a good game but then still feel entitled to things like obamacare. You can't have your cake and eat it too and I can't tell you how many times on site people uphold having obamacare whining how other nations have so called free healthcare. That itself is a joke since nothing is free someone pays for it. I know this will not be a popular truth but it is a truth none the less. 

It Is Impossible For The US To Default

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:14 | 2891442 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

The funny thing about this is all of the people who've made comments along the way, ala "Greece should just default," without realizing the only individuals capable of making those decisions are already fully owned by the creditors. Instead, they equate the state with the commoner who holds zero power.

For example, countless times I've repudiated my share of the national debt, but it has yet to make the slightest impact.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:31 | 2891488 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture



Indeed people have not yet awakened to that truth. The Middle East uprisings were touted as a sign of change and what happened to them? They are even worse off now under military dictatorships and the people in Greece those riots did nothing. The power of the state is much stronger then many choose to believe.

When I think of being prepared I am not so much preparing to fight our government that won't come for many years if at all. Instead I am preparing for the consequences of our government's actions. I am preparing for food inflation, protection from people whose entitlements may be cut along with police forces being cut. 

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:41 | 2891519 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

> "For example, countless times I've repudiated my share of the national debt, but it has yet to make the slightest impact."

Just because something is unseen does not mean it is unimportant.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:43 | 2891525 PKF
PKF's picture

Iceland put the Creditors/Banksters in jail.  And the country is doing very well.  Of course Iceland has only 300,000 people and no hollow points. 

Maybe this is the place to move. 

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:44 | 2891499 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

I put the chance of a US default at roughly 100%.

Consider Gary North's response to the Forbes article you (LMAOLORI) cite:

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:00 | 2891593 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture



I read Gary North all the time but we are not ruled by rational people as he points out our nation is ruled by people who share the Forbes author's views so I live with reality. As I said I am preparing for the consequences those he names as a matter of fact. The politicians will take us into mass inflation, depression or even hyperinflation rather then give up their power. A total collapse then since our nation is ruled by people who share those views will take several years if ever Japan is a good example of how a system can cling to life.


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:22 | 2891618 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

This is an important point that Gary North points out--which very few understand:  Default is not an option - it is "a mathematical certainty" (to borrow the phrase from the Titanic's engineer). 

The US cannot prevent default.  To put it another way, the US cannot avoid default with hyperinflation.  Default is coming.


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 16:15 | 2891790 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture



Gary is missing the fly's in the ointment he talks about creditors no longer buying our debt the Fed has that covered they have already monetized our debt. The Social Security program the politico's will either fix that by raising the FICA taxes (Obama's plan) or allowing the younger generation to opt out (Romney/Ryan plan). The R/R plan will kill the rest of the program because the Social Security program by law cannot tax or deficit spend so the benefits would be cut as it runs out of money until it was gone or those over 55 died off whichever came first. The main point Gary himself alluded to our leaders govern by the notion that we can't default which is technically true since we control the printing press. Anyone who believes that the politicians would give up that power and control is as crazy as those running our country. They would see us suffer through inflation, depression and hyper inflation first all consequencess Gary himself pointed out.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 20:23 | 2892591 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

Assuming politicians can actually fix our debt problem as you suggest (which I seriously doubt), consider this:

1.  The Fed is in charge of the printing press;

2.  The Fed's raison d'etre is to protect big banks;

3.  Congress is spineless when it comes to controlling the Fed;

4.  Hyperinflation would not be good for big banks.

Accordingly, the Fed will not hyperinflate.  Congress will default.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 21:55 | 2892837 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture



I am not saying they can fix our debt problem especially since people are so divided as to what they consider good or bad spending i.e, look at all the posters who think obamacare is a right not an entitlement even though it will cost us an arm and leg. I am just saying they can hold on for a lot longer then people may think (years and years) by taking certain actions one huge one is just taxing you more.  Witness what the Fed did with QEternity people be damned. Politicians won't give up the power or the money either. The Fed's member banks btw would be hurt by default as would all these holders of our debt. Never forget if it came right down to it Congress could abolish the Fed tomorrow and would if push came to shove. 

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 19:15 | 2892463 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Whilst there is no such thing as "Free" Healthcare, there is "free at the point of use" healthcare, and it seems most civilised Countries have recognised that this model provides the best possible dollar outcomes per dollar spent.

Or do you actually prefer to give your Health Insurance money to the Executive Board of whichever HMO deigns to "offer" you (capped, gapped, "provider-restricted") pretend insurance?

There's a VERY GOOD REASON why America WASTES dollars on poor healthcare outcomes. Privatised systems are driven by PROFIT ONLY. Your Clinicians's DON'T go into Medicne with any altruistic ideals - they go there at the beckoning of astronomically high potential rewards (and the Universities KNOW this, which is why they too happily "skim the system").

You want a more efficient system? Design the system to attract those who are not solely motivated by massive wealth. And in today's "Profit before everything else" mindset USA I'm not seeing this happening any time soon.


Mon, 10/15/2012 - 20:20 | 2892583 Chump
Chump's picture

There are so many things wrong with this comment it's hard to choose where to begin.

The woes of America's healthcare system are due primarily to government-enforced monopolies alongside cost-shifting that is illegal in every other industry.  That's trying to sum up way too much in a single sentence, but there are real, fundamental problems with the way healthcare is delivered and billed that have not a single damned thing to do with "profit before everything else" and "altruism."  Have you ever considered that perhaps, just perhaps, some doctors have laudable ideals and would also like to make quite a bit of money for performing a highly demanded service?  Would you render them slaves and dictate what a "reasonable wage" is for them?  Or maybe just weed out who can become a doctor based on who shows the most "altruism?"  Sounds like putting an infected band-aid on arterial bleeding and calling it a day if you ask me.

 Our insurance model is also asinine and it's "our" fault.  Why do we demand insurance pay for every routine little thing as if all health care costs are some big surprise?  My car insurance doesn't cover oil changes; why on earth would it?  What would happen to the cost of oil changes if they were delivered in such a fashion and billed to a third party insurance company?  I'm just guessing here, but I think prices would skyrocket unnecessarily.

Post prices conspicuously, charge the same to every customer, and treat health insurance like actual insurance and you would eliminate most of the bullshit plaguing the medical industry in one fell swoop.  Much easier than trying to patch up the current system and enforce some vague ideals of altruism and everything else before profit.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 00:20 | 2892800 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

OK so YOU are happy to pay over the odds for a cost-ineffective service in comparison with other service providers.

If your profit-only-led system's so very great, then why do countries you mock (such as Cuba) have so much better health outcomes, lower costs (interventional and pharmaceutical) per head of population, and surprise, surprise, an overall healthier population?

If your system is so great, then why did the UK NHS have such a steady flow of  American "health tourists" - "Patch me up Doc, and keep me going just until I get into the UK" mindset?? Why would I have been obliged to have a MINIMUM of $2million in healthcare insurance shuold I have chosen to even holiday in the USA?

Many of my former colleagues in the UK (and in the Netherlands, and in France, and in Italy, now in Australia) were, and are, NOT financially motivated - they actually DID THE JOB OUT OF A SENSE OF COMMUNITY. They were paid quite well - they were NOT "Slaves" as you put it, but their primary motivation was to provide a GOOD SERVICE. No-one was "forced" to do medicine or whatever (apart from maybe Parental pressure), Clinicians are hardly slaves, with a broad choice of alternative professional routes before them on graduation (Medicine, Pharma Research, Teaching, Overseas / International aid employment (Red Cross / Red Crescent / Medecins sans Frontieres etc.), all of which offer quite comfortable salaries.

Your implication seems that "promise of High financial reward" ensures a "better quality" of operator: How's that working out with Wall Street right now? Correspondence and articles throughout this (and other Financial / Macroeconomic blogs) might just indicate that the opposite is the case - you've been forced (Bailouts, anyone??) to pay them, and pay them WELL for incompetence and deliberate misappropriation of resources - but by your model, that must be OK, "becasue you got the best graduates, because they would be paid the highest amount". Working out just fine for 99% of the population, isn't it . . . . .

That's why despite all your American whitewash, YOUR system is the one that provides consistently POOR value for money.

Incidentally you might want to check just how many Medical  Graduates do NOT enter your "High Demand Service" - and with escalating healthcare costs (matched with an escalation of "inability to pay") it'll be VERY interesting to see just what happens on the US side of the pond in due course, with all the "smart people" having decided that Medicine might be a better revenue generator than Finance / Banking post 2008 (so graduating MD in 2013). You already have quite the "Oversupply" situation with Nursing - and Medicine will be the next cab off that particular rank.

Nothing quite like greed-based misallocation of resources is there - and in your Healthcare model, it seems greed (individual and Corporate) calls all the shots.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 08:56 | 2893895 Chump
Chump's picture

Go back and re-read my comment and respond to something that's actually in it.  Thanks.  I'd hate to get off on a tangent mocking you for holding up Cuba's and the UK's health care models as some sort of ideal.

And when you do respond, appropriately, remember that when you use quotation marks it should be for the purpose of, you know, quoting me.  Here's an example:

You said:  "That's why despite all your American whitewash..."

Whereas in my previous comment I said: "The woes of America's healthcare system are due primarily to government-enforced monopolies alongside cost-shifting that is illegal in every other industry.  That's trying to sum up way too much in a single sentence, but there are real, fundamental problems with the way healthcare is delivered and billed that have not a single damned thing to do with 'profit before everything else' and 'altruism.'"

Notice a few things here.  I do not whitewash a single thing.  When I quote you it's your actual words that I'm quoting.  I also respond to specific points that you make and counter with my own arguments.  If you can do the same we might have the basis for a discussion!

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 13:59 | 2891400 savagegoose
savagegoose's picture

fact usa is at %15 of rev to service debt means to me we have quite a few more wars to go before its panick time,. shit theyr're healthy compared to all the other exmples

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:00 | 2891401 Black Markets
Black Markets's picture

This is ridiculous.


As ZH subscribes to the belief that gold is THE base currency...


Why doesn't ZH post a chart showing the US Decifit in oz of Gold?


Why? Because it would show that the US deficit is plummeting. Which it is. It's successfully being inflated away.


But not even a website dedicated to that monotary mechanism can understand what is actually happening!!



Go on, publish the chart showing the historical US deficit priced in oz of gold. Go on.


You guys can't handle the truth. Can't even see it.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:16 | 2891448 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Ah, ah, best comment I'll read today.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:45 | 2891533 blu
blu's picture

Why the value of gold and not silver? Or copper? Or even lead?

For that matter why not chart it against the value of bagels?

These are all illusory things. Deficits and wealth and inflation and deflation -- when money itself isn't even real.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 14:50 | 2891545 squexx
squexx's picture

Were your parents related by any chance?!?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 15:25 | 2891658 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

After ther divorce they were still first cousins...

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 17:45 | 2892271 CPL
CPL's picture

LOL!  I like that.  Trade you some.


They both go fishing in a boat and the entire family is present.

The family tree is a stick.

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