This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Guest Post: Secession Fever Sweeping Europe Meaningless Without Debt Repudiation

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Ron Holland via The Daily Bell blog,

While regional independence is superior to both the failing European Union and the façade of special interest controlled democracy, one further action should taken by any jurisdictions that choose secession: Newly restored sovereign nations should repudiate their share of the illegitimate sovereign debt when they exit existing unions and nation-states. Created by distant banking elites buying national politicians and parliaments to load up on sovereign debts that can never be paid off, this massive national debt load is illegitimate and destructive to existing and new national economies.

Governments have three ways to deal with debt loads of this magnitude: The first is hyperinflation designed to destroy the payoff value of the debt, second is the official repudiation of the debt or third, a combination of both options.

Attempting to hold the bankers accountable is not an option. The investment banks like Goldman Sachs and a few others have already made their money packaging and selling the debt and derivatives so they are now out of the deal. At this point, the world waits for eventual sovereign debt repudiation.

The first nations to repudiate sovereign debt will have the advantage; this is why restored nations should repudiate these debts and not burden their new national economy and citizens with this junk debt. In addition, these nations should repudiate their existing politicians and representatives, controlled by the financial elites who supported the debt accumulation; because once independence is restored there is nothing to stop politicians on the take from doing the same thing again.

European Style Secession Fever

Now, there is no question that regional secession has a bad reputation, primarily due to the bloodbath that took place in the United States from 1861 to 1865. Today, most national governments strongly oppose independence and secession because this legal and legitimate action reduces tax revenues. However, few governments would consider the deplorable Lincoln alternative of military conquest that killed almost 600,000 Americans, North and South.

Although the establishment press issues many negative news accounts about secession fever sweeping Europe, I believe this is actually a positive political development and possibly the only solution to the sovereign debt crisis. For instance:

The Return of the Venetian Republic?

Catalonia Secession From Spain

Bavaria Interested in Secession

Europe's Richer Regions Want Out

Secessionist Wave Sweeps Belgium

Flanders Wants Out of Belgium

Scotland Seals Terms of Historic Independence Vote

Some Want Out of the USA

Vermont Independence

It is time for the restoration of formerly independent countries, each with their own unique cultural and ethnic heritage, that were forced at gunpoint into larger empire states. My recommendation is to leave most of the illegitimate sovereign debt behind when they go.

Venice wants out of Italy, Catalonia out of Spain, Bavaria out of Germany, Scotland and Wales want to leave the United Kingdom, the Flemish want out of Belgium. Even Vermont and some in the South want to regain their former status as sovereign republics separate from the most debt-ridden empire in world history, the United States.

Just as important, Greece, Italy, Ireland, Spain and Portugal – and there are even demands in Germany itself – want to leave the EU and euro witches' brew created by their leaders. After all, the EU is a failure and these member nations may have to leave the European Union and restore their national currencies in order to grow their economies once again.

The Necessity of Sovereign Debt Repudiation

Once austerity measures and tax increases have bankrupted most of the private sector and the current sovereign debt crisis reaches critical mass, then every nation will repudiate most of its debts as well as renege on promised health and social benefits. Newly sovereign nations can act now to position themselves with a distinct advantage when this occurs. These nations will have been able to limit austerity measures, reduce confiscatory tax increases and safeguard their citizens' private wealth by repudiating sovereign debt. If these steps are taken immediately upon independence, they should be able to avoid the majority of economic collapse caused by the coming Western sovereign debt repudiation.

Citizens are deservedly outraged at their politicians, bankers and governments and new governments, taxing jurisdictions or political lines drawn on a map may provide some nationalist, cultural or historical benefits. But independence without repudiation will do nothing to solve the collapsing standards of living and crippling austerity measures I see in our collective future.

Most of the countries in the West will eventually default on their sovereign debts using a war or financial crisis as the excuse. Like the Reichstag fire under Hitler, the excuse can be either a manufactured black-flag event or a policy readied in advance and implemented when the right excuse comes along.

This will not happen until most middle-class wealth and benefits, including retirement and health benefits, are stolen using the twin theft traps of austerity or hyperinflation caused by the sovereign debt crisis. For once, even most government employees will be raped and pillaged, as their promised benefits will evaporate because in the future their make-work jobs alone will be enough to guarantee their votes. It isn't like most will or can work in the private sector after a lifetime of government employment.

History Shows All National Boundaries and Structures Change Over Time

All government boundaries and structures change over time. Comparing a map of early 20th century Europe, Asia or Africa with one outlining national boundaries or tax jurisdictions today makes that clear.

The same is true for governments, Russia being a case in point. It began the 20th century under a monarchy czarist government, became communist in 1917 and later returned to a similar centralized government under Putin, following the collapse of communism and the Soviet Union.

The United States fought for independence and was governed for over a decade under a confederation form of government like Switzerland until the Constitution was instituted. Then it was a decentralized republic until the Civil War when it shifted to an increasingly powerful Washington government until the early 20th century when it became an empire.

Early forms of governments began under tribal associations where chieftains led and the people followed. This was then often either supplanted or combined with religious institutional leadership to better control and manipulate the population and take their crops, wealth etc.

Later with the rise of the Roman republic and its transition under Caesar into a worldwide empire in the West, government ruled with some degree of benefit for the populations. Following the fall of the Roman Empire in the West, once again chieftains, who eventually became royalty and monarchs, ruled alongside the Church for centuries until the Protestant Reformation developed with help from the Gutenberg printing press. Then the Catholic and Protestant churches ruled in conjunction with monarchy and the divine right of kings. The Protestant movement split into many Churches and religious institutions, some in support of government and others in opposition.

At first, wealthy and educated people began to rightly clamor for a parliament and for a say in their government. This citizen input really improved government and for the first time made it accountable to the people – at least those educated and with property. This was probably a time of the best government in the West.

Parliamentary democracy grew in popularity along with the growth of money, trading and banking. Central banking actually began in Venice and broader forms of democracy were added so that wealthy banking families could rule behind the scenes under the cover of mob-rule styled democracy. As the power of monarchy and the Church weakened, democracy evolved into mob rule of the masses and politicians were forced to borrow and go into massive debt in order to stay in power by promising more than the government could provide. This in turn has led to the sovereign debt crisis the West is facing today.

This has now turned into an austerity and sovereign debt crisis, and people rightly long for a return to local accountability and leadership under their smaller and culturally distinct governments. The result is a growing secession movement toward regional, independent governments and away from the new but distant supranational governments like the European Union. This is good news for liberty and prosperity but bad news for the power elites wanting to control wealth and people across the Western world.

Following are a few thoughts on home rule, secession and the restoration of independent nations:

Follow the New Guard Rather Than the Old Elites

 

New nations today are usually the return to nation status of a country or region forced by previous military force or non-elective actions to join a union such as the EU. Supporters and advocates should follow the real independence leaders and parties rather than any "Johnny-come-lately," old-guard political hacks or existing parties who see their power and control challenged. Beware existing political elites who often will do anything to maintain their power base and financial incentives, even for a time becoming "patriots."

 

Repudiate Much of the Existing Sovereign Debt

 

Remember, all sovereign debt principal and interest/debt servicing accumulated over the last couple of decades are just a giant Ponzi scheme, run for the benefit of the banks selling the debt and the politicians using borrowed funds to buy votes and temporary political support. This is a most cruel and illegitimate type of generational theft and debt whereby politicians, banks and voters of one generation actually work together to better their situation at the expense of future generations.

 

Sadly, majorities in the West have chosen to steal from their children and grandchildren in order to live it up today. Instead of creating a legacy of wealth for their posterity, too many of this generation have stolen and squandered the economic future and prosperity of the next generations.

 

Create An Independent Currency

 

Why should a shadowy, central banking cartel have the sole, very lucrative franchise in each nation to create the fiat paper money supply out of nothing, thus enriching themselves and their backers at the expense of each nation and citizens? Central banks, if they exist at all, should be loyal and accountable to the nation in which they are domiciled and operate under close audit and supervision by the government and the people in each national jurisdiction. Of course, each nation should decide whether to offer fiat currency, a commodity-backed currency or currency competition including private alternatives.  

Learn From Switzerland, the Only Successful Political Structure in the 20th Century

Each new and restored nation must, of course, meet the unique needs and demands of its population but why duplicate failure with the same politicians that earlier led that nation to ruin and bankruptcy? Although there are exceptions, the replacement of national government politicians with local or regional government politicians who formerly supported the federal structure – or in the case of the EU, supra-national government structure – accomplishes little of substance.

I consider Switzerland, with its decentralized confederation form of government held in check by its citizens through the political rights of referendum and initiative, to be the best government solution for prosperity and liberty. This is ultimately the reason Switzerland did not join the EU and why this nation with few natural resources is the economic success story of the world.

Therefore, to the coming restored nations of Europe, I wish you well in your attempt to break away from powerful interests and foreign central governments that have forced their control and authority over you. May you succeed in the restoration of a legitimate local and historical government that hopefully will avoid the mismanagement of your economy, exploitation of your resources and destruction of your heritage, culture and prosperity.

As you undertake this endeavor, keep this in mind: All government bureaucracies grow until contained, taxes rise until curtailed and politicians borrow and seek power until thrown out of office. A limited confederation style of government is the best way to ensure that power and authority remain with the citizens instead of the powerful interests that always seek to corrupt and take over government to benefit themselves over the citizenry.

Hopefully, all formerly independent nations and free people are able to peacefully withdraw from the larger nation-states with restored sovereignty, increased freedom and a limited, confederation form of government. They can thereby set a political and economic example for other nations in the EU and elsewhere that smaller, regionalized government is far superior to large, inefficient nation-states.

Remember, smaller is always better when talking about the size and extent of government.

 

- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Wed, 10/24/2012 - 22:55 | 2917654 Alpo for Granny
Alpo for Granny's picture

I guess the only thing left to do is decide who is gonna get the spiderman towels.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 08:27 | 2918042 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Free Germany.......take a clue from Bob Seger. Get out of the EU....baby go go.

 

You look just like a commie and you might be a member.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WWHdBuOC6Q

 

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 13:33 | 2919024 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Free Texas!

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 22:55 | 2917656 JoeSexPack
JoeSexPack's picture

Catalonia, Flanders or Venezia...who's first?

 

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:06 | 2917682 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Catalonia is deep in debt, so my guess is that they are not first.

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:47 | 2917712 alstry
alstry's picture

It doesn't matter....few really understand how systemically interconnected the global industrial economy is presently with the proliferation of credit default swaps. 

Absent Fraudulent Lending To Support Cash Flow, Systemically Integrated Jobs Dependent Industrial Economies Fail Globally


WHAT WILL PEOPLE DO WITHOUT FINANCIAL FRAUD TO DRIVE CASH FLOW TO JOBS?
Who Will Wall Street Milk For Investments?
Who Will Business Milk For Customers?
Who Will Universities Milk For Tuition?
Who Will Politicians Milk For Taxes ?
Who Will Doctors Milk For Patients?
Who Will Bankers Milk For Loans?

The Answer:  Technology @ http://www.udderworld.com

If technology can produce the things we need money for.....we really don't need money and cloud based functioning will make the functionality of soverign nations obsolete.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:11 | 2918013 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Technology is incapable of producing the things we need, merely the things we want or things we are told we need. 

Technology is a two edged sword, with one side producing wonderful new tools to manage our environment while the other side is kept in ignorance, so that the masses never see the damage it yields- protected by calls of "a lack of scientific proof' for all the horror it sows. The same science so diligent in the production of economic goods, yet surprisingly lazy when considering the ramifications.

The answer lies in liberty, cooperation, voluntaryism and vigilance. It's a looooong way back from fascism and banking tyranny.

 

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:02 | 2917664 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

To the extent that one skims through such a bullshit diatribe, about the only required response is to point out that there is no international bankruptcy court.  Repudiation of debt means nothing.

You borrow.  You owe.  You don't want to pay?  Tough.  If you import oil, and the vast majority of Europe does, then it can be surcharged to get the debt paid.

Ask Argentina about all this.  They "defaulted", and now they still owe and are essentially cut off from credit markets unless they pay enormous premiums over bunds.  Even the Greek PSI of March retained debt on the books, just in different form and agreed to with governmental guns to the private creditor heads.

There is no "repudiation".  There is no default.  There is no judge to declare your debt expunged.  You borrow.  You repay.

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:03 | 2917672 NorthenSoul
NorthenSoul's picture

"Ask Argentina about all this."

 

Why don't you ask Iceland? They're criminally suing their bankers, they told creditors to go to hell and bailed out their people first.

BTW, rating agencies put them back on investment grade sovereign debt not even a month ago.

 

"You owe, you pay." WTF? Who can FORCE a country to pay up? Hedge funds? Mbwahahaha!!

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:05 | 2917817 AUD
AUD's picture

Who can FORCE a country to pay up?

In the case of Iceland it is the people, since the Icelandic Krona lost something like half its value v the USD & Euro.

I doubt the government there is promoting a gold standard, so the people pay. Most of them likely have no idea though.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:19 | 2917824 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

They will get their oil imports surcharged via blockade.

Or simply refuse to lend to them further, in which case they have to have a balanced budget instantly, no delays, and no targets of 3% of GDP.

BALANCE.  OVERNIGHT.

They'll pay.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:53 | 2917851 taraxias
taraxias's picture

Stick to posting cheap oil is gone......FOREVER, it has a certain ring to it.

But stop posting nonsense about having to pay. They don't have to and they never have except what they are forced to pay to play by the criminal English courts owned by the Rothchilde clan for debt issued under British law.

Most sovereign bonds are issued in their own currency and law. Even a serial defaulter like Greece issued most bonds under Greek law. Those have been defaulted on by many countries in the past and they surely wil be defaulted on again in the future. And there's shit any creditor can do about it.

So stop spewing shit like "they'll pay".

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:57 | 2917853 taraxias
taraxias's picture

I forgot to mention that you also need to research and understand how the Greek PSI worked because what you posted is just plain WRONG.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 05:23 | 2917936 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Currently example of how Argentina is still being extorted for old defaulted sovereign debt from years ago, quite in line with ZH's past articles on this topic:

Vulture fund in Cayman Islands, NML Capital Ltd, owning old defaulted Argentine bonds, have just convinced judges in Ghana to seize a beautiful sailing ship from Argentina when it was docked there in Africa

« The Ghanaian judge acted on a claim by NML Capital Limited, which is based in the Cayman Islands. ... Its owner, billionaire investor Paul Singer, leads a group demanding payment in full, plus interest, for dollar-based Argentine bonds bought at fire sale prices after the country's economy collapsed a decade ago, forcing a sharp devaluation of its currency. »

Nice looking ship

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/10/201210215038328399.html

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:10 | 2917965 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

I, and a large percensge, didn't borrow but we pay.
Further, what we pay for is against our interest.
And the agencies we oppose, yet demand wealth, obstruct us in our labors.
And it is worce every year since Nixon.

Now I pay only what I contract. I've divorced the state. She still calls, saying she loves me, she's clean and sober andhas changed and gotten her act together, but I 'm done.
Best of luck to you with her.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:56 | 2918053 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

What part does risk assessment play in your little bankster world?  Is not the creditor responsible for the quality of their loans, for measuring risk against the possibility of default? Or does the police power of the State allow them the luxury of being guaranteed payment through violent coercion and confiscation via taxes? 

Your attitude is one of ignorance of historical debt and the arrogance of criminal bankers. It is hard to determine which is more disgusting. "We gave you these entitlements to guarantee your votes and now you complain about the debt burden". The State has a responsibilty to rule with wisdom and to PROTECT the ruled. When they choose to protect bankers and hang their citizens out to dry- they lose the ethical highground and deserve every noose tied around their necks. 

ALL debt is at risk and that includes sovereign debt.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 11:32 | 2918593 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

none of that is true - when you do an LBO and knowing going in you are overleveraging - you plan to take "at some point" the disaster that is intentionally created to buy back the bonds at a discount - the LBO fund sets aside capital upfront for this eventuality - whatever you cant buy you give them new funny paper and move on and you own in the end a greater % of the enterprise with debt instead of at 75% your at 25% - therefore paid the debt earlier - no fuss no muss -

sovereign nations can do the same - is this propaganda or do you believe this  - please give evidence where you are right - there are multiple ways to pay for oil without any surcharges or visibility ask Marc Rich in Zug - blockcades dont work  - ask the crew of the USS Cole in Yemen what can happen

what you havent taken into consideration is when you have one borrower you can control him - 1 million borrowers all saying FU -  you dont control - 5-10-30 countries all default the banks and bond holders are toast - a new commonwealth will form with Russia and China as the banks for these countries in europe, africa etc and they will control systems and raw materials within the AXIS commonwealth and destroy the western banking cartel

so it is written !

 

 

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:03 | 2917670 knukles
knukles's picture

I dunno.
Seems to me somebody says f-u up yours, say like Catalonia for example, they jungle mail the keys, walk their "share" of the national debt and either decide to be good on their own state debts or say it's sayanara too, as it was incurred under duress of Madrid.

In any case, it's not a debt repudiation, holiday, jubilee or anything other than a bloody default.

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:05 | 2917675 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

That was beautiful.............

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:07 | 2917685 NeedtoSecede
NeedtoSecede's picture

"I love the smell of Secession in the morning! It smells like freedom..."

Where do I sign up?

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:11 | 2917690 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Watch out for that secession talk. Some states in the U.S. tried to secede in 1860

only to be met with the Union Army and the death of millions of innocent people

who thought they were in some voluntary union. The United States and the Euro Zone

may have come together voluntarily but once you join, it's like the Mafia, you join

for life.(Or death, if you try to leave). Good luck to any country or region that tries

to become autonomous. It won't be without a fight. 

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 00:10 | 2917766 NeedtoSecede
NeedtoSecede's picture

I guess you are right Zorba. That secession thing will be some hard work, so we might as well just give up, and go back to getting fucked by our goobermint (and the banksters) and watching Honey Boo Boo.

What the fuck? Life is hard every damn day. About 2500 years ago you Greeks used to fight a little. What the fuck happened? Gone fucking libtard Eurotrash soft on us and haven't contributed a damn thing to the world since Aristotle.

"It wont be without a fight." No shit!

Almost forgot: Oopa!

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:30 | 2918027 j0nx
j0nx's picture

Sadfully yes. America needs to split into liberal and conservative states. Neither group wants fuck all to do with the other and both think the other is destroying everything. I give the liberal states 10 years before they implode and end up like warlord ravaged African nations.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 11:53 | 2918702 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

I'm all for the "conservative" states seceding, but I doubt most of them can afford to do it.  Texas and N. Dakota have a reasonable chance, but most of them are way too dependent on Federal money to maintain their governments without Uncle Sam's largesse.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 13:41 | 2919051 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

"to become autonomous. It won't be without a fight."

Great. Let's fight.

To do less is to be unworthy of our ancestors--who understood the need for effective violence to secure liberty.

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:13 | 2917694 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

Thread Jack:

 

I have been staying in a hotel for the last two days and I've been attacked by bedbugs for the second time this year.

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:50 | 2917745 john39
john39's picture

pile some DE around the bed post legs...  under the mattress, whereever.  it shreds them.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 00:52 | 2917809 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

Days Inn,  wots DE??

Regards  Dogbreath

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 04:00 | 2917908 TPTB_r_TBTF
Thu, 10/25/2012 - 08:10 | 2918074 Zadok
Zadok's picture

Diatomaceous earth. Good stuff. Whole foods, etc. useful in other ways too.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 00:11 | 2917726 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

"I consider Switzerland, with its decentralized confederation form of government held in check by its citizens through the political rights of referendum and initiative, to be the best government solution for prosperity and liberty."

Yes I've heard this same utter bullshit before from Gerald Celente. 

The most openly available proxy for a nations enlightenment and freedom is its roads. I was in Geneva last week over two days and both days I was driven insane by the abject ignorance and rule-based morons of the Swiss State (the worst in Europe, and that's saying something)

The efficiency of the roads has been clogged and jammed to a near standstill by the rule based retards, traffic lights (ie. road blocks) every 20 yards, more Govt graffetti (signage, paint on road, zebras, cycle lanes) than any person could possibly take in, cars driven to complete inefficiency and roads destroyed of their carrying ability in stop-star-stop 2mph traffic-light fucking madness

the anti-car attitude of these putridly stupid Govt fuckers extends to no parking areas pushed out deliberatly by massively wide empty pavements for non-exitstent pedestrians and parking for non-paying cyclists. The usual dumb-fuck Govt malinvestment of biggotry to people/motorists that pay their way many times over and subsidising the worthless who pay nothing (pedestrians and cyclists) not to mention the social mis-fits and worthless human scum of Govt traffic (mis)management

then there's the insane economic stupidity of trams and trains none of which pay their way or have done in a hundred miserable years, again subsidised by the productive car drivers crowded out on the roads they pay for by these bankrupt antiquated dinosaurs

if you want to see the madness caused by rules, the insane inefficiency Govt meddling causes in any organisation or system and how Govt drags society down and backward, pisses on the productive, props up the worthless, wastes societies time and always makes it form mind-numbing time wasting cues, mal-investment, mis-direction, complete and utter fucking ignorance to run any system profeciently, turning systems into clown-circus politcal ffotballs, total incompetence and deaf, dumb and blind Govt biggotry to respond to society then go to Switzerland

the Swiss roads are a Govt meddled shambles of epic proportions

there's only one good form of Govt: zero Govt

all Swiss Statists go drive a car around Geneva for 6 hours, you'll soon wise up and stop talking out your arses

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 00:34 | 2917792 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

+1 for the great rant.  I do believe that you attempted to address too many issues at the same time however.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:26 | 2917828 piliage
piliage's picture

Yes. Traffic in Geneva is awful. Has something to do with the city being squeezed between a big fucking lake, a big fucking river, and big fucking mountains. Last time I had client meetings in Switzerland, this was my commute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHMTVMfROgo&feature=related

I've got an idea for you, take the tram next time...

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 02:58 | 2917879 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"all Swiss Statists go drive a car" LOL, good rant, but you miss a little detail: Swiss Statists walk or take the tram, in Geneva. Switzerland is famous for it's heads of government riding bikes to work, for example

this anti-car attitude is strongest in Switzerland but it's spreading fast in all europe - and the new generations in the US are also becoming car-skeptical. even european rednecks like me take the public transport system when visiting the cities. why not? most of those european cities were anyway not built with cars in mind

and the whole article misses another little detail: all this talk about secessions is part and parcel of the "european project". it's because some of the needs of the polities are being satisfied by the greater confederation that those regions aspire now for independence from their nation states

have a better look at it, none of them is currently talking about repudiating debt, and all of them talk about wanting to be part of the EU. and those who use the EUR want to keep it using

they have just realized that they wish to have a seat in the Council, too

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 04:32 | 2917919 Acet
Acet's picture

+1 This

It simply is not practical to use the car in any large city in Europe.

Here are two examples from Lisbon:

- This is an avenue that was built in the 18th century, after an Earthquake and Fire destroyed most of the area: http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=38.710284,-9.136639&spn=0.00342,0.008256&t=...

- This is a street in an area that survived the quake and fire. The topology dates back to the Middle Ages: http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=38.71089,-9.13376&spn=0.00171,0.004128&t=m&...

Notice the miniscule amounts of car parking space. That second area is actually mostly a living area. Even the "Avenue" on the first example is miniscule compared with US or western Canada standards.

 

Also +1 on the other point: all this talk of secession comes because amongst other things, thanks also to the EU, the would-be-new-nations feel safe from military attack by other European states or in fact, by the very own nation they want to seceede from.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 02:59 | 2917881 Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

LOL

 

if you idea on Switzerland is based only on the trip you made to geneva, better if you shut the fuck up.

 

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 03:00 | 2917882 Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

pretty much as me saying the USA are shit because NY is a shit............ completely false and stupid

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 05:09 | 2917933 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Every Thanksgiving gathering invites the crazy uncle, aunt, or canton, even if they are against building bridges to nowhere to solve a well known problem.

The problem is worse for outsiders, but there are solutions- by car you can take the E25 and loop through Verneir & Plan-les-Ouates, or you can park and hop on a mouette between Pâquis and Eaux-Vives. Even when I lived by the jet d'eau, if I needed to go to the north side of town I would take a boat and then hop in a cab or walk to my car (which was garaged at a hotel on the other side as my flat).

You should be thankful you got stuck in traffic, as the alternative is the network of lakeside speed cameras and police, and if you are an outsider (without a Swiss drivers license) you better have a large pile of cash on hand to pay the officer if you are stopped, or you would have definitely missed your appointments.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:16 | 2917972 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

LOL - and Geneva fits the "crazy Aunt Canton" image perfectly, IMHO. A city that holds it's haughty collective (aristocratic and Calvinist) nose and conscendently allows the others to consider it part of the Swiss Confederation... and the Geneva Police has an unrivalled reputation, in Switzerland. Remember when they arrested Hannibal Ghaddafi? Lybia was livid and immediately started to arrest Swiss businessmen there...

That discussion about the bridge in Geneva is so old that it's in the vintage Asterix & the Swiss cartoon book

last time I had a discussion about "freedom to use the car" was in Istambul. My crazy relative was appalled by my suggestion of hopping on a ferry boat to the other side instead of a taxi over the bridge. At the end she liked it so much that we had to go up and down the Bosphorus, sipping Apple Tea and looking at the scenery...

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:59 | 2918055 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Asterix- the barbaric pain-in-the-ass to international students stuck in French classes everywhere... But he's useful for demonstrating that Geneva and its damn bridge bottleneck has been an issue for well over 2000 years now, since Julius Cesar's first act in Geneva was to destroy the the bridge to prevent the Helvetii from entering Gaul, as the previous strategy of fortifying the Rhône bridges was such a stunning failure against Hannibal a century and half earlier in the Second Punic War.

(the English version for those who don't care to suffer through Astérix chez les Helvètes)

http://freecomics.000a.biz/Asterix%20in%20Switzerland.htm

Istanbul is another one of those strategically situated cities with a long bridge history...

 

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 11:48 | 2918689 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

GREAT link, thanks

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 08:44 | 2918122 Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

Visit Roswell GA next time. It makes Geneva seem like a model of libertarian traffic heaven.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 11:36 | 2918647 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

the tram and trains are great ! always to the second on time and clean and reasonable -

there is nowhere you cant get to in Zurich in reasonable time - forget the car

 

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 02:21 | 2920778 the tower
the tower's picture

Only the heavily overpaid do-nothing UN diplomats in Geneva drive around aimlessly in their CD branded cars...

Since they have so much time on their hands they sit there behind the wheel complaining about everything while making 350 an hour, paid for by their respective governments.

 

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:46 | 2917737 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Great success...

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1233325/1/.html

North Korea preparing for third nuclear test, says South Korea

North Korea has kept up preparations for a new nuclear test after having carried out previous launches in 2006 and 2009, South Korea's Defense Minister Kim Kwan-Jin told a news conference on Wednesday.

"In fact, North Korea has been preparing for this for quite a long time," Kim told a news conference with Pentagon chief Leon Panetta.

"And when the time comes for a political decision, it may in fact resort to this third nuclear test," he said.

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:51 | 2917746 dunce
dunce's picture

Maybe this has somrthing to do with the gold physical position changes. Large amounts may have been shifted to China and India plus a few other countries hedging their assets. Cards are pieces of stiff paper and the structure of these papers of no real intrinsic value when no one will trade them for hard assets will simply be chaos that no theory can reorder. demand for delivery might turn into an MF global debacle, with a Sargeant Schultz defense.

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 23:57 | 2917754 TahoeBilly2012
TahoeBilly2012's picture

I just seceded from dumbshit Facebook friends voting for Obamney. I declare myself FREE!

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 00:14 | 2917770 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

I am sorry to inform you that you are still inside the matrix.  As am I.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:35 | 2917838 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Stick that debt up a globalist bankster's ass and be done with it.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:42 | 2917842 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Sometimes I think the greatest lie in the history of mankind is that we need "government" at all. Once someone takes coercive power over another, the trouble begins. What the citizens of Europe will find out is that they have all been subjugated by impossible debt. If some do secede peacefully taking their share of the debt, the lie and the subjugation become visible and measurable. Even when we quote stats like debt per person it just does not register to the average person. It is because there is no visible bill in their mailbox demanding a payment but in fact it is just as real.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:58 | 2917855 Joseph Jones
Joseph Jones's picture

Rabbi Spielberg made a new movie about Lincoln.  Gee, I wonder if it will glofiry war? 

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 02:26 | 2917866 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

All these sovereign debts are odious; they were created not for the benefit of the people of those nations, but for the benefit of those who corrupted legislatures with systemic bribery. Those who invested in this pure evil subjugation of mankind deserve to lose every last penny they put into it.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 02:54 | 2917874 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Impressive display of 'american' history.

As usual, with 'americans', it is all about submission. There is always a big lie to swallow in order to get anything from their pseudo rebelling rants.

Venicce wants out of Italy.
Catalunia wants out of Spain.

So states the 'american' article.

A few lines down,

Italy wants out of EU.
Spain wants out of EU.

Same with Germany and Bavaria etc

Shamelessly, the 'american' as his nature dictates, puts two secession movements on the same foot, even when they are antagonists.

Venicce wants out of Italy and rejoin the EU as a member state. Which contradicts the impulse at the national level, Italy.
But dont bother with that, 'americanism' is all about submission and 'americans' congregate around lies.
So this 'american' fishes for like minded peers who would subscribe to his 'american' pack of lies and will obligate by defending them.

This is how 'americanism' works.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 03:07 | 2917891 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

this is where your "americanism" does not hold water. yes, you are correct, the two secession movements are antagonists, the smaller is real and the bigger is only in the heads of some Britons and US Americans. but we continental europeans don't have this "thing" about dominance and submission being the only natural and historic political order and prefer to aim for cooperation between equal peers. another reason why the UK does not fit in the EU

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 04:46 | 2917924 Acet
Acet's picture

Even the cooperation between equal peers thing is not all the same across Europe.

In my experience of having lived in Portugal, Holland and England, it's the Dutch who are heavy on the cooperation between equal peers, maybe because they are the ones where awareness of the impact of one's own actions on society is considered most important. The Portuguese are heavy on family, and by that I mean extended familiy (i.e. including uncles, cousins and the like), and respect for other people as individuals (so a bit more skewed towards the dominance-submission) though not society at large. The English are mostly focused on individual success at any cost, with little concern for society or family outside the close family.

My impression is that you can extrapolate from the Dutch to most Germanic and Nordic people and from the Portuguese to other Latin and Romance people (Spanish, Italians, a bit the French). No idea if it covers the Greeks, they seem a bit extreme.

Can't really extrapolate from the English: I don't really know any other society in Europe that has gone quite so far into the naked individualistic greed side of things.

 

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:12 | 2918012 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

among the Latins and the "Latinized" the family (and the extended family) is still the "building block" of society, yes.

note how the planned (conservative) harmonization of divorce laws in the EU (reason: more and more international marriages) has led to a north-south split with Sweden, Ireland and the UK who opted out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Divorce_Law_Pact because they favour the fully-free "no-fault" (liberal) divorce that is now the norm in all 50 US States, too.

compared to the Latins (who nevertheless can show a very strong attachment to their villages and cities) the Dutch are of course strongly society-oriented, yes, as all Germanic and Germanized peoples.

In this, the English are peculiar insofar as they have those very civilized attitudes like queing two hours longer than everybody else while in part following a very individualistic way of life. but look at how "tribal-german" they can become when it comes to shaming a group or a person. Or their famous jingoistics attitudes, including "right or wrong, my country". Note how often a typical British newspaper uses the word "must" instead of "ought to", for example.

IMHO the key to understand the English mentality is the strong influence on a basically German People (the Anglo-Saxons) by a particular (smallish and little understood) tribe: the Normans. I'm myself of this origin and I can tell you that it's still one aspect that makes the UK such a special place, from a sociological point of view.

The Greeks? They have, like the Portuguese, a unique culture. Similar to the Latins but they have a strong "foreign occupation mentality" that is visible in this strenght only in Southern Italy and a few other places in europe (and in part in the UK).

of course I'm generalizing, here

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:50 | 2918048 Acet
Acet's picture

The English do seem to be heavy on the judgemental side while, for example, the Dutch are very heavy on the toleration ("gedogen") side of things. I don't really think there is a specific point in the judgemental <-> perceptive axis which is more germanic or more latin.

Also the judgementalism in England seems to be more of a populist bent: it's inconsistent and far more akin to a Roman Circus ("throw them to the lions") meant to entertain and distract the riff-raff than justice or fairness. It feels a lot like the newspapers in the UK are all part of a big pan et circusen play by a previledged minority to distract the majority (which is quite consistent given the cozy relationship between the press and politicians that recently came to light with the "hacking scandal")

More in general the greatest differences between the English and other peoples with a Germanic origin that I found are that:

  • The English have a much deeper and calcified class structure, mostly based on inheritance of position and with low social mobility. It goes to the point of people from the same city having very distinctly different accents depending on their class. They have an amazing nose to spot each other's class origins (though they can't really tell with foreigners, so all foreigners are like a class apart)
  • The English are (at least in in a professional context) much less structured and organised. In fact, at least in London, they're almost as bad as the Latins.
  • The English are for more concerned with appearences. Open criticism is not accepted, unfelt compliments and excuses are the norm and in fact in some social circles giving insufficient compliment is felt as insulting (to the point that, to someone like me which is in a way very Dutch, it all sounds very hypocritical). Open displays of wealth and status are the norm (while, for example, in Holland overt displays of wealth are considered distastefull)

As for the Portuguese, me being one, I can tell you they're A LOT like the Spanish. In fact, except for the language difference (which boils down mostly to accent, since the vast majority of words are the same) any other behavioural differences between the Portuguese and the average Spaniard are not much bigger than the differences between people from different regions in Spain.

 

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:05 | 2917957 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Han citizen's 'Han Citizenism' blinds him/her/it to reality - that exploitative human nature is eternal, not 'American'.

viz Empires Roman, Babylonian, Assyrian, English... or were they all 'American' too?

God you are a crashing bore.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 03:01 | 2917883 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

'American' economics is based on Smithian economics, so at the core, it is all about transfering from an exterior to an interior.

Therefore the importance of borders, which is the only thing an interior and an exterior share in common.

Redrawing of borders is inherent to 'American' economics as time passes by.

While globalization is much older than what 'americans' trivially claim, what 'americans' trivially call globalization, that is the last three decades or so, corresponds with globalization no longer being that unambiguously favourable to 'americans' phenomenum.

Due to the massive increase in the 'american' middle class wants, wishes and needs, and the end of the physical expansion age, any resources not being consumed in 'american' nations is considered as a vital loss.
Quick example: outsourcing. Even if outsourcing has tremendously increased 'american' consumption in 'american' nations, the very necessity of resources to be consumed on locations of outsourced jobs, has got under the skin of 'americans'.
Big divide between 'americans' who benefit from the outsourcing as it empowers them so much in terms of consumption and 'americans' who would want the consumption associated with work to be made in 'american' nations.

So the redrawing of borders has to be here: 'americans' trying desperately to maximize in the inflow of wealth by redrawing the borders of the interior/exterior and claiming new inborn rights to consumption of wealth.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:05 | 2917956 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Han citizen's 'Han Citizenism' blinds him/her/it to reality - that exploitative human nature is eternal, not 'American'.

viz Empires Roman, Babylonian, Assyrian, English... or were they all 'American' too?

God you are a crashing bore.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 09:52 | 2918273 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

AnAnonymous, spinning his crackpotter's wheel, said:

'American' economics is based on Smithian economics, so at the core, it is all about transfering from an exterior to an interior.

Therefore the importance of borders, which is the only thing an interior and an exterior share in common.

Very much the inducement to laughing with heartiness when does the comparison making of speechings AnAnonymous in other article being:

Woooo, 'americans' know no boundaries, and it takes an 'american' to outdo another 'american'.

Indicatings of much magnitude the contradictatorship of Chinese Citizenism Communautst Party Ministry of Truth propagandation exhibited herewith. Eternal nature displayings thusly.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 03:05 | 2917889 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Good 'american' article as it piles on 'americanism' with the newly additional dimension added to humanity heritage, courtesy of 'americanism'

Extortion of the weak, farming of the poor business is benefitial to the weak, the poor even before it is to the strong and the rich.

Unsurprisingly though, when on the wrong side of the deal, 'americans' suddenly no longer consider this rule as marbled in stone, calling how debilitating on them this kind of business is.

'Americanism' is as 'american' does.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:05 | 2917954 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Han citizen's 'Han Citizenism' blinds him/her/it to reality - that exploitative human nature is eternal, not 'American'.

viz Empires Roman, Babylonian, Assyrian, English... or were they all 'American' too?

God you are a crashing bore. 

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:33 | 2917990 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

You seem to make some interesting points, but you're command of English is not good enough.  Can you point to a reference in English that can explain your point of view?

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 16:48 | 2922654 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Apparently he wishes to remain inscrutable.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 05:45 | 2917944 kalum
kalum's picture

I live in New Mexico, which is essentially now returned to Mexico. I tell my child and grandchild to move to Texas znd join the movement to secede.We must be free of the rapidly spreading cancer that is Washington, D. C in order to survive

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:21 | 2917978 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

The writer has forgotten the potentional for a seccesionist movement in Australia which may well happen when resource rich/revenue producing states have had enough of supporting the poor cousins for decade after decade.

The best seccessionist movement begins with all of us handing in our fiat rubbish in exchange for real gold and silver. If you do not secede from the crappy financial system to begin with, then a breakaway nation is bound to flounder sooner rather than later.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:52 | 2917999 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

Monetary secession (attempting to withdraw from the petro-dollar) will get you shot and bombed quicker than political secession.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 06:58 | 2918004 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

this essay is the most intelligent and thoughtful i have read on zh in ages.....it is past time to repudiate the shackles of slavery and declare independence in the day of jubilee.....fuck the banksters all to hell and fuck the people who want to live under such a regime...

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:05 | 2918008 news printer
Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:19 | 2918019 j0nx
j0nx's picture

As long as I get to repudiate my own individual debt then I'm all for it.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 07:35 | 2918033 samsara
samsara's picture

Amazing, that whole article and not a mention of Iceland

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 08:00 | 2918058 eckart
eckart's picture

complete nonsense

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 12:05 | 2918751 covert
covert's picture

switzerland actually did join the eu and that's a proven fact.

http://covert.ias3.com/expose/

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 21:16 | 2920360 SilverMoneyBags
SilverMoneyBags's picture

You don't need debt repudiation. Each country can walk away from the Eurozone and say, "F U" to the creditors. If you're going to start over, it might as well all be fresh.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!