Bundesbank's Official Statement On Where It's Gold Is (And Isn't)

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Three days ago, as a result of recent discoveries relating to Germany's official sovereign gold inventory, we asked a rhetorical question: "Why Did The Bundesbank Secretly Withdraw Two-Thirds Of Its London Gold?" There we presented the chonology of official disclosure regarding the whereabouts of German gold over the past decade, with an emphasis on its reclamation from London-based official vaults to the safety of the motherland, and left off with another open-ended statement that: "what is left unsaid in all of the above is that Germany has done nothing wrong! It simply demanded a reclamation of what is rightfully Germany's to demand." Nonetheless, the fact that Germany did this has opened a Pandora's box of unanswered questions, and even demands that Germany promptly demand delivery all of its gold - the second largest such hoard in the world only after the US - held abroad. Below is the official response by the Bundesbank.

Here is the gist::

We do not have the slightest doubt that our holdings in New York and Paris are also made up of the purest fine gold. We have at our disposal fully documented lists of the bars, and our partner central banks send us every year confirmation not only of the bars’ existence but also of their quality.

 

We had nothing but the best of experiences with our partners in New York, London and Paris. There was never any doubt about the security of Germany’s gold. In future, we wish to continue to keep gold at international gold trading centres so that, when push comes to shove, we can have it available as a reserve asset as soon as possible. Gold stored in your home safe is not immediately available as collateral in case you need foreign currency.

How about if you need collateral in your own currency, such as the de facto reserve currency of Europe, the DEM? Crickets?

The punchline:

Take, for instance, the key role that the US dollar plays as a reserve currency in the global financial system. The gold held with the New York Fed can, in a crisis, be pledged with the Federal Reserve Bank as collateral against US dollar-denominated liquidity. Similar pound sterling liquidity could be obtained by pledging the gold that is held with the Bank of England.

And what otherwise would pass as Saturday Humor:

But, please: for years, our gold has been stored by the highly esteemed central banks of the United States, Great Britain and France without provoking any complaints whatsoever – not by just any fly-by-night operators. Part of the debate in Germany has veered somewhat towards the absurd.

In other words, German gold is being held hostage by the "highly esteemed central banks" of the US and the UK, due to the reserve currency status of the US Dollar, and apparently the British Pound. And the only way a central bank - read the Fed or the BOE - can extend a loan against gold-based collateral, is if said gold is already on location in the US or the UK.

Which of course, does not explain why Germany decided to withdraw two-thirds of its gold from London, as opposed to withdrawing none... or all, if indeed the logic above made sense.

But fear not: Buba has has nothing but the best experiences with its partners in New York, London and Paris, and as a result will gladly continue to allow them sole physical custody of Germany's gold.

Good luck, however, if Germany ever needs to repatriate said gold...

From the Bundesbank:

Gold reserves stored securely

Questions posed by DPA to Carl-Ludwig Thiele, Member of the Executive Board of the Deutsche Bundesbank

How much German gold is stored in the United States, how much in Frankfurt and how much in Great Britain?

The Deutsche Bundesbank keeps part of its gold holdings in its own vaults in Ger-many, while other stocks of gold are stored at the central banks located in major gold trading centres. Specifically, these are

  • Deutsche Bundesbank, Frankfurt am Main: 1,036 tonnes (= 31%)
  • Federal Reserve Bank of New York (Fed): 1,536 tonnes (= 45%)
  • Bank of England, London: 450 tonnes (= 13%)
  • Banque de France, Paris: 374 tonnes (= 11%)

Isn’t storing gold abroad an expensive anachronism?

The New York Fed and the Banque de France also offer to store gold holdings for other central banks free of charge. The Bank of England charges warehousing fees amount-ing to roughly €500,000 per year. Storage in the Bundesbank’s own vaults, too, involves costs. Matters of cost, however, are not the sole consideration in determining the choice of storage facility. The usability of gold as a reserve asset and storage security are much more important. During repeated visits to New York, London and Paris, our internal auditors have satisfied themselves that the security precautions in place there meet the same high standards as those in Frankfurt.

What makes the Bundesbank so certain that German gold holdings are being stored securely abroad – even though, according to the German Federal Court of Auditors, these reserves have never been “physically inventoried and checked for authenticity and weight” by the Bundesbank itself or by independ-ent auditors?

At the beginning of the last decade, we brought 930 tonnes of gold to Frankfurt from London and subjected it to a painstaking inspection. Part of the gold was melted down in order to create new bars which conform with the “Good Delivery Standard” which is customary nowadays in gold trading. Of the 930 tonnes of gold, not one gram was missing. We do not have the slightest doubt that our holdings in New York and Paris are also made up of the purest fine gold. We have at our disposal fully documented lists of the bars, and our partner central banks send us every year confirmation not only of the bars’ existence but also of their quality. We receive confirmation of our gold reserves, measured in troy ounces. The Bundesbank has been drawing up its accounts on this basis since it came into existence. All external auditors have confirmed our accounting practices outright since then.

Why doesn’t the Bundesbank bring the gold back to Germany?

The reasons for storing gold reserves with foreign partner central banks are historical since, at the time, gold at these trading centres was transferred to the Bundesbank. To be more specific: in October 1951 the Bank deutscher Länder, the Bundesbank’s predecessor, purchased its first gold for DM 2.5 million; that was 529 kilograms at the time. By 1956, the gold reserves had risen to DM 6.2 billion, or 1,328 tonnes; upon its foundation in 1957, the Bundesbank took over these reserves. No further gold was added until the 1970s. During that entire period, we had nothing but the best of experiences with our partners in New York, London and Paris. There was never any doubt about the security of Germany’s gold. In future, we wish to continue to keep gold at international gold trading centres so that, when push comes to shove, we can have it available as a reserve asset as soon as possible. Gold stored in your home safe is not immediately available as collateral in case you need foreign currency. Take, for instance, the key role that the US dollar plays as a reserve currency in the global financial system. The gold held with the New York Fed can, in a crisis, be pledged with the Federal Reserve Bank as collateral against US dollar-denominated liquidity. Similar pound sterling liquidity could be obtained by pledging the gold that is held with the Bank of England.

In the statement it issued on Tuesday, the Bundesbank said that it would “take up suggestions by the FCA wherever possible.” What does that mean specifically? When, and at what intervals, will Bundesbank auditors physically view the gold being held abroad?

The Bundesbank has decided to strive for a more balanced distribution of gold re-serve holdings at home and broad, thereby taking increased account of gold’s function of preserving trust and confidence. After all, reserve assets have psychological significance, so to speak. In the next three years, we will repatriate 50 tonnes of gold annually from New York to Germany. That will give us the opportunity to inspect these bars, melt them down and convert them into “Good Delivery Standard” bars. That will therefore be a sort of spot check. Moreover, we are currently in the middle of discussions about a further expansion of our rights to conduct audits in New York, London and Paris. But, please: for years, our gold has been stored by the highly esteemed central banks of the United States, Great Britain and France without provoking any complaints whatsoever – not by just any fly-by-night operators. Part of the debate in Germany has veered somewhat towards the absurd.

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Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:13 | 2924242 yabyum
yabyum's picture

And I have a tungsten bridge I want to sell you!

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:16 | 2924248 jaap
jaap's picture

This is a towards the absurd reaction...

Just audit it, don't whine...

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:21 | 2924264 flacon
flacon's picture

Can somone please give me Carl-Ludwig Thiele's phone number? I want to give that motherfucker a phone call!

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:26 | 2924279 JoeSexPack
JoeSexPack's picture

Translation: The FED won't let us see, test or take it.

 

Said shipping German gold, if they have it, to Deutscheland would leave nearly nothing in NYC, if they have it.

 

Worse, since German gold has been mostly leased out & rehypothecated, a waterfall of defaults would start.

 

Then they mentioned 1945, nukes, Libya & Kaddaffi.

 

That press release is a lie to pacify our citizens.

 

Prost.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:31 | 2924290 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Germans: "We do not have the slightest doubt that our holdings in New York and Paris are also made up of the purest fine gold"

Germans: "Our cultural history unequivocally" proves that we have implicit TRUST in Jew bankers"...

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 17:01 | 2924346 macholatte
macholatte's picture

 

 

 

Trust, but verify.
Ronald Reagan

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 17:20 | 2924365 Popo
Popo's picture

I think we have our answer, and we can surmise what happened:

 

1)  The gold is not there.

2)  Germany was notified in private meetings that the gold had been lent out to 3rd party institutions, but those institutions had guarantees by which the gold could and would be returned upon demand.

3)  It was explained to Germany that the "truth" could result in panic because people would not understand.

4)  Germany agreed and offered up the above, "It's all okay.  No you can't see it." press release.

 

How do we know this is true?

1)  Most obviously:  Show us.   Where are the photos?  Where is the evidence?  Germany went to New York to verify and take inventory.  Well?  Where is the inventory?  How much gold is there?   The lack of photos may also suggest pooling of accounts.

2)  Also obvious:  The "proximity to trading centers" argument is a nonsensical argument.   Germany has dozens of high security banks in Manhattan, all of whom are capable of storing gold.   It is important to note that physically it does not take up that much space.  If proximity to trading centers was in fact the rationale,  it does nothing to explain it's location at the New York Federal Reserve.

3)  More fundamentally:  The physical gold rarely trades.  Trades are placed "against" gold via paper swaps and derivatives.  The physical location of the gold is of tertiary importance to (a) Having a verifiable inventory and (b) having physical possesion of it in a secure, inviolable location.

The gold is gone.  It isn't there.  And Germany's panicked press-release tells the likely story.

 

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 17:55 | 2924437 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

Life in general today has veered somewhat towards the absurd.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 18:24 | 2924480 Kick_the_Kan
Kick_the_Kan's picture

This is like a farcical version of the cat in the box paradox (Schroedinger's cat)....the only way we can know for certain whether the cat is dead or alive is by opening the box...in this case Germany wants to keep alive the possibility that the gold is still there by not opening the vault.....however the dogs on the street know that the gold is not really there. 

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 18:48 | 2924493 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I would bet a large sum that this a forgery, and the product of a prankster or hacker.

 

"But, please: for years, our gold has been stored by the highly esteemed central banks of the United States, Great Britain and France without provoking any complaints whatsoever – not by just any fly-by-night operators. Part of the debate in Germany has veered somewhat towards the absurd."

 

There is about a snowball's chances in hell that any German in any material, significant position in the Bundesbank would possibly think this, let alone put it into writing. It literally reads like a very bad joke told at a dive comedy club.

Maybe it's an inside joke by a low ranking intern or such who is working at the Bundesbank, though.

 

p.s. - I found what I believe to be the original german article that this was translated into english from, and according to Google Translate and Babelfish, it reads more closely to:

"Has somevunn godten zeeee gold? Where is zeeee gold??  Hurry up!!! Scheiß!!!  Scheiße!!!! Git zeeeee gold vrum that der abschaum der menschlichen gesellschaft Bank of England & Federal Rezerve now!!! Ben S. Bernank, that  Mieser Stricher, can Lutsch' meine Eier!!!

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 19:42 | 2924561 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

We have at our disposal fully documented lists of the bars

Well now, didn't those poor schlubs who had silver "stored" for them at morgan stanley have bar lists, too?

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 20:06 | 2924596 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

The NY FED's response to Germany, just substitute "gold" for the word "money" during the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GSXbgfKFWg

And someone has to do a new "Hitler finds out about German gold" video.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 20:31 | 2924630 Manthong
Manthong's picture

.. and the Greeks will pay us back on time and in full.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 20:59 | 2924666 malikai
malikai's picture

So, what I got from this aricle is that Buba has about 1Kt of gold in posession, therefore, Buba has 1Kt of gold.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 00:10 | 2924828 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

all of the above is interesting speculation by observers with varying periods of attention to this matter.  here is a bit more by one on this particular case for over a decade:

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/10/25_J...

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 01:40 | 2924856 zhandax
zhandax's picture

Read all of Bubba's press release and then take it at face value, given the knowledge that you already had, or have gained here.  Bubba didn't pull a Chavez and demand all their gold by Christmas.  They asked for 50 tonnes a year for the next three years until almost all of it was back in their possession.  They will leave enough to say that they have some with the fed, just as they did with the BOE. 

They fuckin well know it has been re-hypothecated to hell, and they gave berskanky and timmay three years to replace it with the real deal delivered to their custody.  Gold is fungible, and they don't give a rat's ass if they get back the bar numbers they deposited, as long as they get back the real thing.  They added that some or all would be assayed and re-cast to insure none of the tungsten bullshit comes their way.  Any of you fail to get what the need for 50 tonnes of physical by the fed will do to spot regardless of JPM's interference?  My first guess is that the easiest source are the holdings of GLD and any of you holding their paper are about to experience a major dilution, but, of course, the proof of this concept is the spread between spot and GLD.  Even that can be subject to other factors (and will be subject to obfuscation).  There may even be a few choice spread trades here, but Saturday night party hour is the time to hatch concepts, not test probabilities. 

In order to maintain the petrodollar ponzi, brothers ben and jamie now have an unavoidable demand for 50 tonnes of real gold for each of the next three years.  Think this will change the dynamics of the market?

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 01:59 | 2924872 perchprism
perchprism's picture

 

Fifty tons for 3 years is 150 tons out of 1500 tons of German golod currently held by the NY Fed, or about 10%--not "nearly all of it" as you have suggested.  And, unfortunately, it's not really enough to force a squeeze on the market price.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 05:07 | 2924888 zhandax
zhandax's picture

Touché, and so much for Saturday night optimism.  I saw imaginary synchronicity with BOE; Bubba withdrew all but a token, and I dropped a decimal to create the same scenario with the fed.  It is still a cold face-slap of reality for ben and timmah, and it should be interesting to see what type shenanigans are required to satisfy an absolute demand for 50 tonnes/year of physical from the nexus of re-hypothecation.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 11:10 | 2925176 CH1
CH1's picture

They need time to segregate a "German" pile of non-tungsten bars. Then they'll have a video crew in, and assure the world that central bankers are saints.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 08:28 | 2925016 TerraHertz
TerraHertz's picture

"And someone has to do a new "Hitler finds out about German gold" video."

Oh yes, please, please!

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 01:38 | 2924862 putaipan
putaipan's picture

poooof! it's bitches!

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 17:16 | 2924366 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

This is no big deal, they probably just want to buy some oil from Iran.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 18:48 | 2924505 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

...& they're "sweatin'" that, pretty soon, JOOBUX won't be be accepted at the pay window... Hell ~ I'd be worried too... [So now ALL the faggoty junkers can come out of their Saturday slumber here and inform fs, IN DETAIL, how I'm incorrect]... 5...4...3...2...

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 09:36 | 2925062 augustusgloop
augustusgloop's picture

Trust in Allah, but tie your camel's leg (cameltoe?). 

 

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 10:02 | 2925074 Shibumi2
Shibumi2's picture

I thought the fed chairman declared gold to be a barbarous RELIC.

Now the germans call it their reserve currency. Can't borrow ANY fiat without gold backing, and not only that...the fed won't wait to have the gold in their possession PRIOR to advancing fiat, which costs nothing to create and therefore has no loss of risk. Where's the trust in that biotch.

The analogy would be that one would give the local banks money to hold IN CASE one ever needed to borrow money. That doesn't sound like good german logic to me.

Another thing...whatever happened to all the gold deposits which would have been needed when the fed LENT 16 trillion to the world in 2008. zerohedge sniffed this one out...and it smells rotten. Methinks the bundesbank doth protest too much

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 17:31 | 2924395 jmcadg
jmcadg's picture

Normalcy bias

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 18:59 | 2924522 old.frt
old.frt's picture

Yah, sure.

You betcha.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 01:36 | 2924861 putaipan
putaipan's picture

two tungsten bars an'a michrophone baby........ - beck. a member of the first church of appliantology.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 03:27 | 2924914 Don Diego
Don Diego's picture

The Jews at the Fed would never ever cheat Germans :D

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:32 | 2924296 SHEEPFUKKER
SHEEPFUKKER's picture

Let's be real here....it is not Germany's gold. So if all of these international banksters are all caught up in the same ponzi scheme.....errrrrr, scam, seems like the shell game can continue a little longer. just sayin

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:46 | 2924324 jaap
jaap's picture

The question is, who owns the Bundes Bank?

If it is the Germans, then audit it. They have the right to know

If it are the same banks who own almost all the central banks, then just tell that and enjoy your paper gold (you stole)

PS, by owning I do not mean where the shares are but who the puppetmaster is (controling influence).

 

 

 

 

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 19:54 | 2924577 Captain Planet
Captain Planet's picture

you raise an interesting point jaap. but i must say, as a citizen of that country, the power structure is significantly more fragmented than in the US and the UK. Bavaria has its own values, much like the American South, but holds a much greater economic status than any southern US region. Then there is the still present division between East and West. Berliners, at least those not blinded by Europhoria, know way more of what the fuck is up than the average urban Amerkan (sic). Look at the Pirate party, which last year was the clear winner in the local Berlin elections, gaining seats for the first time, on their first try. 

As to the Buba, sure, Germany's wealthy elites control many of thet important roles at the top of the ladder, but I would argue that the Germanic ethic (Switzerland and Austria included) for sound money is driving policy more than anything. The German people still hold immense shame for what happened during the Hitler years, and it is probably the single most important, unspoken edict across the society: let us never again be drawn unnecessarily into international conflict that could create a nasty situation at home. Most educated Germans do acknowledge how the economic crises of the 1920's and 30's led to the atrocities that followed, and agree on the psychological effect of monetary insecurity. 

In a nutshell, I wouldn't be too worried about Buba being coopted by interests aligned with the NdubyaO

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 21:22 | 2924687 JR
JR's picture

Buba already has been compromised and it doesn’t take a German to know it. The world knows it. The investment banking cartel is an international cartel and I would be surprised if your sentiment represents the average German and not the German financial sector.

As to your “never again” comment, unfortunately, it’s hard to look past the catastrophe that the Zionists have wreaked not only upon the American nation but upon the once proud, independent Teutonic peoples.

As for “not being too worried about Buba being co-opted by…the NWO," we all know that train has left the station.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 23:05 | 2924787 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

It's long past time for Germans to stop feeling "shame" for the 1930s Judeo-Communist massacre of 10,000 Ukrainians and Zionist-stooge Churchill's 1942-44 E. India Terror Famine that killed 7,000,000.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 23:27 | 2924802 eaglefalcon
eaglefalcon's picture

Translation: The FED won't let us see, test or take it.

 

  True, but the FED couldn't prevent Germany from taking out Dollar Loans using the gold as collateral (or the Fed's credibility would be lost).  Using the loan, Germany could buy gold from comex or London and take delivery.  When that happens, the fed is forced to sell gold to defend the dollar, or forced to naked short gold.  To keep the crap from hitting the fan, either the fed or the future market has to lose gold.  That's exactly what the Chinese and Russians are doing.  Either you give me your gold, copper, iron, farmland, oil, and other hard assorted hard assets and be broke in 5 years, or we dump the treasuries tonight and you are broke tomorrow.  Between Eisenhower and Nixon, the Fed sold 12,000 tons of gold to defend the dollar, after Nixon, the fed secretly sold 8,000 tons in the London bullion pool the defend the dollar. (that's why fort Knox is just a depository of air and dust).  It's obvious they will sell NYFED gold just to keep afloat for a few more months (After all, most of it is someone else' gold

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 11:45 | 2925246 sandhillexit
sandhillexit's picture

If I were an investigative reporter I would put on my galoshes and macinac and take my video camera downtown tomorrow and stake out the FED.  The media is tracking Sandy, but there may be a line of Brinks trucks lined up before heading out to JFK.  It would be hard to move truckfuls with all those Jerseyites walking around buying coffee and lunch and walking to the PATH.  Not tomorrow.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 16:15 | 2925775 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

If I remember correctly, there was a bunch of FED stored gold under the World Trade Center in deep underground vaults.  Wonder how much of that "survived" the demolition?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080724172940AAVQqtx

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:22 | 2924265 SGS
SGS's picture

"when push comes to shove, we can have it available as a reserve asset as soon as possible"

 

Why mention this if the shit isnt ready to splat everywhere soon?  What Germany going to march to the NY Fed and bring it back when Ben says we dont have shit...?

 

I urn for a collapse asap.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:36 | 2924305 flacon
flacon's picture

"yearn", not "urn" but the gold is no doubt paper IOU dust in a basement urn. 

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:53 | 2924333 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Must be great storage fees on large, heavily guarded, empty vaults.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 05:25 | 2924952 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

these empty vaults are only heavily-guarded during visiting hours.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 17:33 | 2924377 sunaJ
sunaJ's picture

"And the only way a central bank - read the Fed or the BOE - can extend a loan against gold-based collateral, is if said gold is already on location in the US or the UK."

 

In other words, Germany rightfully asserts that the U.S/U.K. do not recognize Germany's "ownership" of the gold unless the U.S./U.K. have physical possession of it. 

Germany is speaking out of both sides of her mouth.  One side for the banksters, sovereigns and the German public: "Don't worry!"

And on the other side of her mouth: by repatriating 2/3 of their gold from London and auditing the gold in NY, implicitly stating that they either do not trust that it is there and/or they are not interested in using it as collateral for FRNs.  Now why would that be?

 

Which side of her mouth speaks most loudly to you?

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 23:10 | 2924791 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

They got back what they could. The rest they couldn't, because it's not there. Just like America's 30-years-w/o-an-audit "gold" in Ft. Knox. THAT gold is in Israel, stored in close proximity to nuclear weapons stockpiles.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 21:20 | 2924689 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

We may all wind up in an urn.   Is that air I hear seeping out of the bubble?

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 02:50 | 2924903 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

Ahhhh
I love the smell of printer ink in the morning...

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:30 | 2924289 Dr Benway
Dr Benway's picture

They doth protest too much

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 20:22 | 2924619 Jam Akin
Jam Akin's picture

It looks that they hired MDB as their copy writer for this protest.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 18:41 | 2924500 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

Blah, blah, blah.....
WHERES YOUR GOLD U BITCH ASS GERMANS....
Fucked once again by those sheisty Americans....
Ha, ha!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 18:47 | 2924510 john39
john39's picture

Americans?  they will be looking for their gold too...  

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 23:01 | 2924785 FreeSlave
FreeSlave's picture
CNBC Exec’s Children Murdered, 1 Day After CNBC Reports $43 Trillion Bankster Lawsuit

  http://www.thedailysheeple.com/cnbc-execs-children-murdered-1-day-after-...

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