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Americans Aged 18-29 Have A More Favorable Response To Socialism Than To Capitalism
In the prior post, we showed a presentation that looked at America from the perspective of a corporation and how it would be completely unsustainable. Luckily, there is little probability that America will ever have anything to do with S-Corp status, and far more likely end up as an agrarian Kolhoz. The reason: based on a Pew survey of America's youth, or those aged 18-29, more have a positive view response toward Socialism than they do toward Capitalism. We will leave it at that.
Socialism: 49% Positive / 43% Negative:
And Capitalism: 46% Positive / 47% Negative:
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There should be another graph describing which age groups have been and will ostensibly be paying for the ponzi social security, medicare and medicaid programs that the supposed "capitalist" eldsters are now receiving and definitely using.
Here's what I don't get about this whole thing: If "socialism" is such a terrible thing, then why are Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark at or near the top of nearly every single indicator of quality of life currently measured?
I lived through the cold war, I know what a disaster Soviet communism was, and the horrors that followed in the wake of Stalin, not to mention the Chinese version under Mao. I get how awful that is and was, I've worked with people who escaped from those places and listened to their stories.
But when I look at Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark I don't see the horrors of Stalin and Mao. I see functioning societies that appear to enjoy a lot of popular support and provide a generally high standard of living to their citizens. So honestly, I'm perplexed, maybe someone here would be nice enough to explain why this so?
massive oil revenues
Subtract that out and Scandanavian socialism doesn't add up to well
I think europeans in general know who they are and their spot on the timeline of history. Their education system does not hobble them as badly as us. Europeans do not criminalize jaywalkers, graffiti artists, people who drink beer in public places, fast drivers. We accept our criminalization through indoctrination/shit education.
It's the Ant Law.
The Law of Jante (Danish and Norwegian: Janteloven (Danish pronunciation: [?ja?nd???lo????n]); Swedish: Jantelagen) is a pattern of group behaviour towards individuals within Scandinavian communities, which negatively portrays and criticises individual success and achievement as unworthy and inappropriate.
Generally used colloquially as a sociological term to negatively describe an attitude towards individuality and success common in Scandinavia, the term refers to a mentality which de-emphasizes individual effort and places all emphasis on the collective, while discouraging those who stand out as achievers.
The ten rules state:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
Interesting post Crockett. Thank You.
You're welcome. Picked it up from a Scandinavian guy in a Ron Paul forum.
The truth is that very few people in American could give a definition of Socialism that isn't the skewed, vague, propagandized nonsense that has been bandied about for decades by the corporations and Oligarchs (yes America, you have Oligarchs) that really run the country. All the while, most fail to see that the warnings promoted by these groups serve only one purpose: To keep them in power. To maintain the status quo.
If TPTB dont like it then it must be socialist, muslim or gay.
Because they don't have socialism. They are welfare states. They're social democracies.
Can you still own property in these countries? Then not socialism.
Do you know what really makes Nordic societies wealthy? It's Nordic Capitalism:
Denmark (pop: 5.5M hab): Mærsk, Carlsberg, Tuborg, Lego, Bang & Olufsen, Ecco.
Sweden (pop: 9.5M hab): IKEA, Volvo, Scania, Ericsson, H&M, Metro, AstraZeneca, Eletrolux, Tetrapak, Saab
Finland (pop: 5.2M hab): Nokia, Rovio (Angry Birds)
Norway (pop: 4.9M hab): Ok, this is the Oil
This is why they are rich. The socialist part just drags them down. If they get ride of it, they would been even better.
Pew pew pew pew
Lots of people I know under 30 are for Ron Paul. I think there is actually more entitlement mentality in the 30-40 year olds.
it's not their fault... they haven't had a chance to experience true capitalism.
perhaps the question should be: "do you prefer fascism or socialism ?" ..they have lots of experience with both of those.
Need ZH island. Suspect there's a few closet billionaires hanging around. Cough up and buy a big ass island?
yes...and on that big ass island the billionaires are gonna buy...they'll need lots and lots of gardeners....so there should be plenty of work for those who aren't footing the bill for the island. I have no doubt that they will voluntarily pay you a fair and equitable wage for your services. After all...why should we doubt it?
Ah, so you think we should all be equal in money, social stratus and job sort. I'll be so completely fascinated how you make that happen. How you force that to happen. How you regulate and limit to make that happen. How you eliminate choice and liberty to make that happen. How you subjugate and displace to make that happen. How you enslave to make that happen. How you imprison to make that happen. How you kill to make that happen.
the devil is in the details!
How much of this is skewed as a result of young age and attendent stupidity that comes with it? Anyone who never dabbles in socialist ideologies as a young person is as thoughtless as the average douchebag becomes in middle age. Once a person gets into the real world and starts earning a living they soon realize just what the word actually means... Massive theft of property with no discernible return.
In other words, we're doomed! Socialism has ultimately destroyed every civilization it has ever touched! It's coveting and stealing on a societal scale!
Plan and prepare accordingly!
Sixty years of constant propaganda from media, academia, Hollywood and the abuses of Wall Street ... what do you expect
American youth has had it easy growing up. Microwave ovens, cell phones, plentiful cheap gas.......the list goes on. But the low-hanging fruit of America's past is gone. As each new year comes and goes, the struggles to survive will only increase. When Mom and Dad are dead, and they're out of work, and the belly's grumbling and the kid's crying, they'll get creative.
It's what generations of people have done for centuries. You either toughen up, get your ass to work, or you die.
I'm just glad I won't be around to see the sorry state that our world is going to be in in another hundred years or so.
This is what happens when children are handed everything from their parents. Fucking spoiled idiots!
Take this group and ship them to the Ukraine, Russia or Venezuela to live for 2 months and they would kiss the earth below them when they come whining home to mommy and daddy!
And most 18-29 year olds still live with their parents. The next logical step for welfare recipients (being provided for by mommy and daddy) is to advocate socialism so they can move out of the house and still have their welfare at the expense of more than just a few people. Your better off screwing people through others rather than picking up the gun yourself and pointing it at people to get what you want. That is what the government is there for!
How interesting. Those collecting or about to collect Social Security have a negative response to the "word" socialism....And I'll leave it at that.
Using Pavlovian techniques you can make ducks bark at the moon ! Thanks for your "collective" anecdote which doesn't prove anything .... just muddies the water ! Socialism needs brute force and ignorance in order to exist !
How awful for us your grandparents survived meeting Mr. Zyklon B.
Your kind has bankrupted this, once, great, nation and when you have stolen the last shekel from our retirement accounts with your ponzi schemes we will be unable to finance your defense. I pray I live to see the day of your annilation. No third temple for you spawn of Ialdabaoth, scourge of this planet.
Thats the problem, the next time its tried there will be less sympathy for israelis because of the way the survivors kids abused their parents suffering as a way to get special treatment for themselves and their land grab.
Those who manage to get some measure of restitution from a thief who stole their money will likely still have a negative response to the word "robbery."
Keep government hands offa my medicare!
--sign held by an elderly TEA Party protestor
When the Soviets went down .... the Socialists went beserk .... they are now more hateful, destructive and dangerous than ever !
Those shitheads came to the U.S. If it hadn't been for Reagan they'd have stayed penned up over there in the far east instead.
Always new my generation was f&@ked, as a 28yr old, I'm not only a capitalist but a realist, we truly are screwed
You cant be both, capitalism is an ideology and reality is real.
Which one requires my participation?
The other one can go fuck itself.
Let's see now.... the choice is corporate socialism, welfare statism,or monopoly capitalism but nowhere is there a liberal free enterprise button. I'll press the red corporate welfare state button... no the blue one, no the red......
Don't you just love "armchair socialists" who have no idea of the suffering caused by socialism ?
Nothing new here. Kids are all for free shit until you take their candy away and give it to someone else.
My 47 yr old response is neutral because I think it's all bullshit. So - what does that make me?
The Spastic King of Spatula City ?
OK!
I was expecting much worse.
I was kind because I like your handle .... even though I'm not sure what it means ? Is it some kind of disease ?
It's poor Latin.
tired?
King Twitchy the Cynic
If socialism were represented by a human body .... it would be a 90 lb weakling who couldn't lift his 50 lb, freak, diseased, hydro cephalic head off the ground !
My professional friends in France get health care, 6 weeks of vacation, retirment benefits. I can't emigrate to France.
The robber barons have a death grip to work us to death, with no vacation, and no health benefits.
Do you think either candidate gives a minutes concern weather you live or die in agony?
THIS SYSTEM SUCKS.
You sheeple just haven't been overseas to see how others live a life IN PEACE.
In Haiti, former French slave colony, you get 52 weeks of idleness per year ! When is the French government going to come up with some fresh socialist ideas to save Haiti ?
Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to France (or Greece) recently-
Tell me, has housing bottomed in america yet, coz if the yuropaens ever convince the ratings companies they have fixed their lil problem that 17 trillion gap will fuck you over good and proper.
Everyone on ZH needs to stfu and repeat the wall st holy mantra.
"one more bubble, please great bernanke/greenspan just one more bubble then i can retire......"
Biggest bunch a spoiled losers. ever.
Bush Govt underwrote Fannie and freddie for pepple with no deposits.
Y'know why they had no deposit - Coz they were broke!
Houses are for living in not for speculatory investment, gold is an insurance not a speculatory investment, etc etc etc.
Edit,
Damn, just remembered you're that swiss expat arent you!
Doh!
Yes, I am an expat it Switzerland, where, unfortunately, the evil & artificial housing bubble is still alive and (relatively) well, and the SNB printing presses still run day and night (which might be useful in light of the re-insurance exposure to Sandy). At least that insanity is somewhat offset by the largest per-capita concentration of physical gold in the world and refining almost half the world's annual new gold production (access to both stock & flow of gold in one place did factor into my decision to relocate here).
Anyone who can't pass a rigorous Ludwig Von Mises exam at age 21 should be eliminated from the gene pool before they reproduce ! You can't make a Capitalist Silk Hat out of sows ears !
By age 21, a big chunk of those who can't pass the written part of a drivers license test will have already spawned a couple of times.
Whoa there israeli boy, a jew calling for people to be culled from the gene pool, do you know the meaning of irony?
(Clue:its not a metal)
gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh
Is really all I can say about this thread.
The choice is really between the freedom to do it yourself and those that will force choices on you.
Socialists will force decisions on you in an effort to eliminate failure, and in doing so will guarantee it. A group of people will never come to a solution faster than a single individual.
Should I be forced to pay a union contractor to put in a hot water heater and pay for a permit, or should I be allowed to put it in myself if I am smart enough to do so. Regardless of the socialist regulation, I will put it in myself since I can buy it without the aid of a contractor.
Socialism can only flourish in a society where the population can no longer take care of itself and individuals can't provide even base neccesities for themselves.
Seriously, if you can't figure out how to use a $10 plumbing snake to cear a clogged drain, and need to call a $100 an hour plumbing service, you are of no benefit to society.
This hurricane is showing how well socialism works for its supporters.
Crap.
Sure, if you have some minor plumbing skills (and I had more than just minor) you can instal a hot water heater which anyone can buy from a supplier, BUT there is no way that you could make a heater from scratch, nor anything else you can only buy in finished form, e.g. including all piping, all timber you might use.
There is NO way you, or anyone, can take care of yourself in this modern world.
Have a go at this: use copper (or lead, or iron, or plastic) tubing and fittings by all means; but first go mine your copper ore, smelt it, cast into ingots and then extrude into piping and so on.
You are delusional and/or ignorance is bliss.
Dude, you take cognitive dissonance to a whole new level
"Socialism can only flourish in a society where the population can no longer take care of itself and individuals can't provide even base neccesities for themselves. Seriously, if you can't figure out how to use a $10 plumbing snake to cear a clogged drain, and need to call a $100 an hour plumbing service, you are of no benefit to society."
Under capitalism, you no longer need to know those skills, leave that to the working class, you're better than them anyway, you're smart trading forex at your desk, while those idiots are doing manual labour, fucking proles are dumb.
Capitalism compartmented and specialised those roles not socialism.
You really need to read a book or two and get a clue.
Their education systems are working. All is lost.
Can't we have one island in the world where socialism isn't allowed .... kind of an experimental control group .... the "scientific" socialists wouldn't be afraid of that would they ?
Like a Kibbutz?
The designers of Socialism/Marxism/Bolshevikism know how to be patient. They've perfectly molded the lethargically, docile minds of todays youth through all the mind control venues that kids plug their brains into. These kids are now totally under the designers control. The world as we know it will never be the same. The older generations will die off and those being groomed to "do as they are told" will perform flawlessly.
Eat organic. Exercise. Meditate. get plenty of rest. Uplift yourself and your friends. And stay away from the masses (of youth), their infection is contagious.
The world as we know it will never be the same.
This statement shows just how out of touch with reality you are. Everything is always changing.
Eat organic. Exercise. Meditate. get plenty of rest. Uplift yourself and your friends. And stay away from the masses (of youth), their infection is contagious.
Afraid of new ideas are you? Afraid your ideals won't hold their own against a younger more open minded minds? Afraid you may realize your way of thinking may just not be as grand as you thought? What is it about the "infectious youth" that you despise so much? Of course, it will be the youth that push for new change, as the old geezers that profited so well from the golden age of cronyism continue to through more money than sense towards maintaning the political and social landscape. And then there will be revolution.
It is the point of the children to bring new life to the world, in more ways than one.
I dont personally see how telling people to run away in fear is "uplifting" to anyone. If you think you're not afraid, spend some more time meditating, the self reflection will eventually reveal the truth.
The designers of Crony/Corrupt Capitalism know how to be patient. They've perfectly molded the lethargically, docile minds of todays youth through all the mind control venues that kids plug their brains into. These kids are now totally under the designers control. The world as we know it will never be the same. The older generations will die off and those being groomed to "do as they are told" will perform flawlessly.
Eat organic. Exercise. Meditate. get plenty of rest. Uplift yourself and your friends. And get involved in your local youth community their enthusiasm is contagious.
Fixed it:-)
Can any of you guys roll over to the house and wipe my ass? I hate doing things for myself. Bring a couple 20s too as I gotta run to the liquor store. One for all and all for me.
Sounds like shovel ready.
Sorry, under socialism, you have to work, lazy and fat is no longer a valid excuse.
that's cause they don't know noth'n; ans don't has noth'n.
What an erudite, literate and intelligent response ... yes I am being sarcastic and for good reason.
The trouble with you Usans is that you got brain-washed with the "Communist Scare" and were never allowed to think for yourselves about moderate forms of socialism/mixed economies.
I do not know how old you are (I am 69), but it seems that you are stuck in the Cold War era and saddled with propaganda spoon-fed to you in order for you to believe in something superior about the "American Way", though in fact the Washington Empire has been going down the tube since the 1970s, whilst countries which are more socialistic have been on the up ... which Libya was, for instance, until those you agree with in high places, destroyed everything.
Of course, as a misinformed Usan, you would not know anything of the history that led to your Empire failing ... well not really YOUR Empire, just that of the PTB in Washington who tell you what to believe from cradle to grave.
Maybe there is some hope that 18-29 year-olds are more awake than you are.
69 and still that stupid and uninformed.
What an intelligent response.
i'm talking human beings... when you young; you want things, ands pussy, maybe some weed too. when you olds, you want to be free of all that material bullshit and retarded responsibility; the responsibility of supporting the state/culture/empire.
young dudes, like socialism cause they needs a job, and shit, when you got nothing, anything free sounds good. and as long as you can get some pussy and weed on the side; it ain't bad.
Resorting to "name calling" is a sign that you are losing the argument, just saying......
Makes perfect sense. Far more lies being told on behalf of fake capitalism about a mythical socialism these days.
As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
So if I say fuck banksterism and fuck Bernanke does that make me a socialist? I think this binary choice is masking the real issue. Another MSM outlet finishing off the banksters rusty trambone.
As a person in that age group, I'm sorry for my misguided peers.
The main argument used is that socialism is ethically better than capitalism. In fact almost every attempt at argument for socialism usually ends up as an appeal to either ethos or pathos, while skimping quite a bit on the logos.
A little Aristotle with my coffee this morning........ lol
So you say socialism appeals to ethics and emotion but lacks logical reasoning..... I think should take some time to read Carl Marx, you might find his arguments regarding the flaws or lack of logic for "unregulated capitalism" enlightening....
" Marx stressed that capitalism was unstable, and prone to periodic crises.[5] He suggested that over time, capitalists would invest more and more in new technologies, and less and less in labour.[4] Since Marx believed that surplus value appropriated from labour is the source of profits, he concluded that the rate of profit would fall even as the economy grew.[101] Marx believed that increasingly severe crises would punctuate this cycle of growth, collapse, and more growth.[101] Moreover, he believed that in the long-term this process would necessarily enrich and empower the capitalist class." (yes I know wiki, I need another cup of coffee if you want me to start quoting Marx directly...)
Some "food for thought", The Communist Manifesto was written circa 1848, way before Stalin and the USSR hijacked it. Kinda reminds me of the current "Republicans" hijacking the Constitution and founding fathers "intent"....
It is wise to remember that the "iron curtain" death strip that divided freedom in the West from slavery in the East -- manned by guns and search lights, watchdogs and rolled barbed wire and cement -- was put there to keep people in, not out.
An idealist named Whitaker Chambers, the U.S. go between spy stealing documents in Washington to be delivered to the Soviets in the 1930s, went so far as to begin selling out his government for the Bolshevik future; but dramatically he saw the error of his ways and repented. His confession identifies this poisonous Socialism that leads to tyranny in the clearest terms that it has ever been described:
“Experience and the record had finally convinced me that communism is a form of totalitarianism, that its triumph means slavery to men whenever they fall under its sway and spiritual night to the human mind and soul. I resolved to break with the Communist Party at whatever risk to my life or other tragedy to myself or my family.”
And defining the process, who better for the description that the expert:
The goal of socialism is communism. -- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
As for socialism, young voters preferred Obama over John McCain in the 2008 presidential election by 68 percent to 30 percent — the highest share of the youth vote obtained by any candidate since exit polls began reporting results by age in 1976, according to CIRCLE, a non-partisan organization that promotes research on the political engagement of Americans between ages 15 and 25.
CIRCLE’s youth demographics for the 2012 election show that 21.3% of ALL eligible voters are 18-to-29 years old; since the 08 Election, 17 million young people are newly eligible to vote; 19% have a parent born outside the US; 5% are born outside of the US themselves; 1% are Native American, 3% More than one race, 4% Asian American, 14% African American, 17% Latino, and 62% White.
http://www.civicyouth.org/quick-facts/youth-demographics/
"manned by guns and search lights, watchdogs and rolled barbed wire and cement"
So when is the last time you have crossed the US/Canada boarder??? In the past if you were going to Canada you would just drive up to the Canadian Boarder Crossing, and chat with the Canadian Boarder Patrol. Now, quite often you have to "check out" with the US Boarder agents (they divert traffic to the US Agents) PRiOR to leaving the country and crossing to the Canadian Boarder...
Now why would they want to do that?????
Oh right they are looking for middle east terrorists trying to come into the US <snark>.
Who cares what they want give them what they are asking for.
Regardless of socialism or capitalism, this is a sign that whatever happens will be a lot worse.
The people surveyed most likely don't even know the true meanings of either anyways.
Personally, I am not sure that socialism or capitalism are anything more than words which are increasingly twisted by both sides to whatever meaning they wish to ascribe to them.
Inequality, inefficiencies and injustices abound under both systems.
As resources become scarcer either due to consumption or rising populations, it will no longer be about socialism v capitalism but survival v extinction.
If we can afford trillions of dollars to keep banker executives in their cushy offices and pretend that is capitalism, then a few crumbs for the cake-eating masses under the moniker of 'socialism' is no big deal.
All pointless.
The kids have never seen capitalism.
All they see is John Corzine and Cronies everywhere and so don't know any beteer.
They generally wont figure it out till they're in their late 20's or read...
What they are witnessing is the endgame of capitalism, a corporate kleptocracy. They can see where its heading and realize its much worse than "socialism".
"While in major capitalist economies the minimum wage is legislatively imposed by the state, there is no maximum wage limit, which is supposedly determined by the forces of the free market. They further argue that the minimum wage measure does not serve to set a lower limit in a worker's earnings; it actually functions as an upper limit on the earnings of a person that just enters the workforce. The existence of minimum wage, coupled with the absence of maximum, permits rapid wealth accumulation and leads to a phenomenon termed "plutonomy" by Citigroup. In effect, wages are kept low for almost all of the population while the remaining minute percentage is allowed to meet overwhelming profits."
http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/6284-philip-davis/484021-capitalism-s-end-game
Wisdom comes with age. There is a saying: if you are 20 and not a socialist, you don't have a heart. If you are 40 and are still a socialist, you don't have a brain.
Alternatively:
If you are 40 and have lost your heart, empathy, conscience, consideration for others and have become purely self-interested; then you are a sociopath and well-suited to crony-capitalism and the politics/ideologies which go with it.
Considering that we are fundamentally a SOCIAL species and more inter-dependent than ANY other, it is obscene that the likes of you have come to dominate ... from the top who actually have raw power, to plebs who believe the nonsense that's purveyed.
Be proud, if you like, that you have cognitive dissonance.
"The psychopath does not merely repress feelings of anxiety and guilt or fail to experience them appropriately; instead, he or she lacks a fundamental understanding of what these things are."
http://www.damninteresting.com/the-unburdened-mind/
Wow, some comment. I never said you should give up your humanity. You can leave it up to a mad raving socialist like yourself to immediately go into a reflex and start insulting people. I guess if you could you would send 'people like me' to a gulag.
Well, I guess according to the figures presented by zerohedge in this article then apparently everybody over 30 in your view has become a sociopath. It are the Gütmensch socialists who are the sociopaths because they talk the leftist 'do good' talk while they fill their pockets on the right. If you are a socialist, then give up all your money and work like a worker (just like christians need to live like Christ and give up wealth and live with the poor and the leppers). People need people, it is true what you say. Altruism is good but altruism is also done for selfish reasons: it gives you a warm feeling when you help somebody (it gives you a warm feeling when you donate money to poor Africans to ease your conscious before going on your business of buying clothes and cellphones made in sweatshops) and it is used for later times, when it is you who needs help. But eventually people do things out of selfinterest. It is a survival instinct.
You looked at the numbers above and concluded that "everyone over 30" hates socialism?
They really don't seem to indicate that. I mean, if you look at them with normal eyes, instead of crazy eyes.
The words capitalism and socialism have been newspeaked by the Orwellian elite. Capitalism used to mean the freedom to own stuff and keep what you voluntarily obtained from your labor, it has now become synonymous with the opposite,
Bravo Tyler, well done, damage limitation and misinformation at its finest.
So 18-29 year olds believe people to be worth more than profit, i cannot imagine why ZH thinks that to be bad, global capitalism works so well by using greed and fear to motivate its subjects why would anyone change a winning formula, I cannot explain the value of human decency to the people at ZH who only value money, it would be like describing color to a blind man.
Shouldnt you be telling us all to hold our noses and vote for Romney sometime soon?
Colonial Intent
I have lived half of my life under Socialism which you describe as 'human decency' , and I was making 25 USD per month (5 USD above national average) in these times.
I hope you get to live under Socialism and understand what it is like.
My heart is just breaking when I read things like what you just wrote
Not belittling your experience, but in my own experience the 'socialists' who ran your country were probably just as corrupt as the 'capitalists' who now run america.
Thats the bit the older generation cant get, they impose their own irrational pavlovian response prejudices onto the 18-29 yr olds.
18-29 yr olds see that capitalism has failed in the same way communism did, they might not know what works, but they know what doesnt.
Their choice is to join the current system and become corrupted by it or take their own path and stay out of it.
I see why the oldies here are pissed, if the youth dont sign up to capitalism, who will pay their pensions?
IMHO, 10/20 years from now no one will care about ism's anymore food and energy will rule everything.
Survival rules.
I think I could classify myself as one of the "oldies" and I agree with your statement, my generation and the one before it will be viewed as the ones who pissed it all away.
good that you are putting '' '' around the word 'capitalism' in one place
bad that in other place you do not put them
Capitalism did not fail. Capitalism made America the Land of the Free. In the last century the capitalism has fallen in the US.
And this is why the system is failing
Explain to me how capitalism continues its infinite growth in a finite world.
It cant, all that is left is for the strong to prey on the weak until we reach a natural balance of savagery or as its known 'american capitalism'
'american capitalism' is parasitical in nature and can therefore never sustain itself without destroying other cultures and system to satisfy its growth addiction.
I.E.
The last 50 years or so has been terrible, just ask anyonefrom one of the 50 or so countries america has interfered with in the name of 'capitalism'
P.S.
I know i'm sounding like anonnynonny and i do feel slightly icky about it.
who talks about infinite growth? just about basic honesty. People have a right to decide about their own lives , they are NOT cows who are given grass and water.
People have a right to decide about their own lives ,
How does this figure into the "capitalism/socialism" debate?
It just looks like an argument for anarchy to me. Which I wholeheartedly support. But anarchism itself REQUIRES that either "socialist" OR "capitalist" options are acceptable choices for people to make.
People have a right to decide about their own lives ,
<<How does this figure into the "capitalism/socialism" debate?>>
This is CRUCIAL , fundamental in this debate.
In socialism, people do not have the right to fruits to their labor. Everyone has rights to other people's labor, so an individual is not deciding about his own life (hard work does not pay any more that laying on the couch).
In capitalism, an individual makes choices for himself.
I am amazed to find that you are using terms 'socialism' and 'capitalism' as they are fed to american people by main stream manipulative media corporations. go back to their real meanings and I hope to find we do not actually differ much
Well, "capitalism" as an "economic system" was a word invented by Marx. Before he started talking about it, "capitalism" just meant "owning capital."
Setting aside the notion that a human language is a shared understanding of words, how would YOU define capitalism?
>>all that is left is for the strong to prey on the weak <<
The ultimate , most efficient watchdog who makes sure that the strong prey on the weak is the GOVERNMENT.
As of now , it violates the Constitution and robs people of their liberties.
Before, under Capitalism , the strong simply were not able to rob the weak on such a mass , genoicidal scale.
Transfer of trillions of dollars via 'bailouts' , ZIRP and NIRP , from middle class savers to 0,1% bankers who gamble with our life's savings was possible ONLY because of the GOVERNMENT which violated CAPITALIST Constitution.
Before, under Capitalism , the strong simply were not able to rob the weak on such a mass , genoicidal scale.
Never read any history, have ya?
Colonial Intent: You're muddled. The objective is to generate national wealth by fair means and for that mostly to be shared amongst those who create it, whilst taking care of those who are unable to play their part. There is zero evidence that socialism has ever done any of this. Quite the opposite in fact; it presides over progressive destruction of the economy and society which then leads to police state totalitarianism to maintain order and to enforce the Leaders' policies.
The objective is to generate national wealth by fair means and for that mostly to be shared amongst those who create it, whilst taking care of those who are unable to play their part.
Why?
How do you enforce fairness?
(What is Fair?)
How many of those who are unable to take part can you allow in the lifeboat before it capsizes?
No model of society is perfect...there will always be winners and losers -- that is part of society's incentive to work and be productive. One person's view of what's "fair" differs from another, so you have democracy to sort that out. In theory. But it has failed because socialist elites (many of them deny being socialists) have peddled policies which they claim can give some sections of society a free lunch (aka the "welfare state"). We are now reaping what we sowed. Welfare State costs in UK/Europe are out of control and draining wealth from the productive sectors of society.
You enforce a widely accepted model of fairness through regulatory oversight -- something which has been inadequate or seriously lacking in America and UK/Europe for decades, because many of the political elites are in bed with the corporate sector and enrich themselves by a revolving door. Corporatism. Such that we do not have free market capitalism any longer. We have crony capitalism where markets are manipulated by govts/central banks and the banks themselves. None of these groups believe in free market capitalism. Power and control is their gameplan.
YMMV :-)
Do you think there will ever be a way to have a free market economy that is compatible with social democracy?
Plus regulation can be corrupted and abused, which social system is strong enough to balance and not overpower the economic system.
Why cant we have capitalism for everything except energy, food, shelter, clothing and transport.
YMMV?
Yo Momma Makes Volts?
:-)
Dunno what "social democracy" really means. In Europe it's a label meaning intellectual socialism, apparently that's different from mindless socialism. Labels hide a lot...socialism has a long history of re-inventing itself and changing its slogans.
I should have added that regulatory oversight needs to be backed by very strong enforcement to deter and punish violation. Thus, at this time there should be a long queue of banksters outside the courts waiting their turn for being dealt with for running their economies and societies into the ground, rigging LIBOR and many other criminal actions. Add quite a few political elites to that queue...
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary :-)
I would love to see what the percentage of 18-29 year olds who are in the U.S. military would be.
18-29 - pretty much says it all. The closer to 18, the more socialist after 12 years of training in the school system - no data to back that one though.
Socialists like socialism until they find out what socialism is all about. Remember the National Socialist Party of 1932 in Germany?
Hmmm.... first the National Socialist Party was a fascist regime... a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
So just because it's called a "socialist party" or a "Democracy" doesn't make it so.
You socialists are all the same. Locusts. Rebranding and reselling a centralized system. Don't think about it too much - the state can do that for you.
Ever heard of liberal? Of course. You socialists own the brand. But liberal was derived from the word liberty - something you socialists have no understanding of.
So along came the socialist locusts such as yourself and rebranded liberal to mean something different. The true liberals are now liberatarian.
In the end, go fuck your political ideologies. They are meaningless crap. The government has created this economic nightmare and the worst has yet to come. Enjoy the ride asshole.
Nah, TRUE liberals are anarchists. Libertarians need the big papi centralized state to protect their wealth for them.
The foundational principle of organizing a government is to preserve and protect wealth inequality. It's ALWAYS been that way.
A small portion of 1500 people out of 350 million ... nuff said ...
I have had the "adventure" of running intern programs and recruiting young people for a number of companies. The attitudes in the past 10-15 years just grab you. I will admit that since 2008 the world has hammered their expectations, but before that it was like the world owed them a job.
There's always XBox and food stamps, and they don't mind.
.
"There's always XBox and food stamps, and they don't mind."
They can be taught new skills, perhaps at our collective re-education camp.
It'd be interesting to know how many of those favoring socialism know whether to spell the word with s or z .... point is, they don't have a fking clue what socialism or capitalism even is. pointless survey.
I can't say I blame the younger people. The current system is failing many of us, and the young in particular. They feel disenfranchised, and they are quite right. I can't entirely embrace any political system anymore, and I am almost 60.
Praise Bob.
Well, it'd be interesting to try Capitalism and find out what people think of it then.
I think there was a country which used to have capitalism , it all started around 1776 . This country was quite successful when it sticked to its Constitution
It will require government, unfortunately.
have we run out of communist countries from which right wingers might be "saved"?
an anonymous junk...how silly of rational adults to ignore that given the choice between crony capitalism that preys upon them and nearly any other "ism" regular folk WILL choose...
fear not...your bankster and political overlords stand at the ready with fear oppression and fascism(hyper faux-capitalism) to save you.
It's to be expected from people in that age group. People with little or nothing invariably want to share the nation's wealth instead of earning it themselves. And capitalism has been blamed for the economic catastrophe that we're going through, whereas it's actually caused by crony capitalism practiced by socialist governments (eg in Britain under Jonah Brown).
Faced with the economic and social destruction caused by socialist policies, True Believers always call for more socialism; as in "...if only we could control X, Y & Z".
Young Americans need to look at the consequences of socialism across Europe to see it leads to impoverishment and ultimately: totalitarian government when it all comes crashing down.
To paraphrase Maggie Thatcher
"Socialism is wonderful until you run out of other people's money"
In Canada here, if you are a deadbeat you live like a king, if you are an entrepreneur you are vilified and taxed to death..
I too live in Canada, if you are a "dead beat" you get a roof over your head, food, health care and some cast off clothing, to say they "live like a king" is bullshit!
"entrepreneur you are vilified and taxed to death.." Oh pleeaaase.... sounds you failed at being an entrepreneur and had to blame someone other than yourself!
Whoa to the parasite who proclaims the host a failure for dying.
Money has nothing to do with it. As we all know, money can be printed by those in control. The phrase should be amended to:
"Socialism is wonderful until the productive people realize it's futile to be productive."
"Capitalism is wonderful until the productive people realize it's futile to be productive."
Why sit on your ass moving numbers around a screen when you could be doing something productive, oh yeah "greed is good"
Thatcher had it wrong. She should have said, "Capitalism is wonderful, until you run out of other people's money."
SPOILED ROTTEN LITTLE FUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They may be spoiled but my bet is thet their understanding/definition of socialism is flawed. My kids were schooled in private-nonunion schools and are hardcore capitalist. I believe that the problem is if you dumb down the herd they are easier to move in one direction or another.
When you run government like a business, you get the Soviet Union.
18-29 is pretty much just after leaving public education system.
Also, capitalism gets all the bad rep from cronyism. It would be educational if a few countries went full socialism just to show how it goes. 50% fascist economy is awful, but hardcore socialism is even worse. People might add 2 to 2 and see which factor in current Western countries is responsible for what. Maybe France will try it?
It would be even better if a few countries tried capitalism... but this won't even get a chance before financial cliff.
You had capitalism - this is what it eventually becomes!!!
Are you dim or something?
Free market capitalism has NEVER prevented monopolies forming. This is why regulation was devised - which distorted the market - which created the state we're in today.
Now tell me 'brains' - how would you prevent any corporation becoming a monopoly and abusing it's position without regulation?
...and don't feed me any crap about 'consumer choice' - the 'consumer choice' only works when the consumer is well informed - and it's clear from advertising that the truth (which is required) is at a premium.
I wouldn't have bought a starbucks coffee if I had known they haven't paid any UK tax for 3 years - now how the hell am I supposed to find that out when standing at the counter?
This idea we can 'go back to captialism' is unbelievable stuipid and lacks a total understading of how we got here in the first place.
Only dimwits can blame the Government for this mess - dimwits and people with vested interests.
You don't have a problem with government monopoly power: why do you have such a problem with corporate monopoly power?
Things that corporate monopolies haven't done:
I'm bored but the list goes on. The only regulation needed is the rule of law and that is more than enough to circumscribe the powers of any corporate entity.
I do have a problem with Government power - but a truly democratic Government is controlled by the people - therefore it's a monopoly power 'owned' by all.
You do not vote for corporations - and you do not have much choice in which ones are successful - despite the claims of the free marketeers. I mean if that were even remotely true then Goldman would not exist today. However it's backed by enough highly wealthy and powerful people - it does not need 'popularity' to abuse it's monopoly.
Lets look at your examples.
Seriously - when I started this post I thought you were intelligent - as I near the bottom I realise you're either not - or you're a four year old.
Your list of 'crimes of communism' isn't even accurate and is totally hypocritical. Surely you are not so blinded you think you're right??
I blame leni, he was sat in switzerland for years waiting as his interpretation of marx stated that communism would be born in the most advanced industrial society of its age, that at the time was switzerland!
He then took an ideology based on a premise of an industrial society and attempted to implement it on the least industrial country in europe.
Just sayin:-)
I completely agree - as Marx said "capitalism will fall and from the ashes will come communism" - I think Marx knew communism couldn't be 'forced' - but he let them get on with it anyway.
I believe Marx thought Germany would be the birth of communism.
However even teh failed attempt by the Bolshevieks did demonstrate the sheer power of central planning - the USSR went from an agarian monarchy - which was relatively poor - to world supoerpower and 'space explorers' - in less than half a lifetime
The reason the USA feared this so much is the oligarths who control it - were afraid people might turn their back on capitlaism. Hence the cold war was started by the US - first they bombed japan in a show of strength - which prompted the nuclear arms race.
I must say it's refeshing to debate with someone who knows a bit about captialism and communism - rather than the loud and very stupid "kill the Gubbermint" brigade who seem to have polluted this website.
My real fear is communism only comes from absolute desperation - which is not the best way to change systems in my book.
It used to be about seizing control of the banks, train stations and post office now its the bank, oil and internets.
Most here decry taxes while claiming Govt aid, thats because they are not taught critical thinking, they are so emotionally wedded to their nostalgic ideal of capitualism that they are unable to consider an alternative, plus they would lose all their pension/benefits from Govt if they did so.
I dont mind debating people with a point of view different to mine;), its when they deliberately misrepresent an argument with the hope that if enough people misrepresent it they redefine it
Case in point:obama phones (reagan authorised the benefit system under which that woman got her phone, yet both sides misrepresented the argument in order to look good to their base.)
ZH'ers frustration at the corruption in Govt and of free market capitalism is exactly the same as the frustration at the corruption felt by OWS people yet the media keeps reinforcing the left/right paradigm to keep them divided while the oligarchs conquer.
Perhaps if they were more involved in their govt they would help to keep it honest.
If thats not a viable option America has a historical precedent for removing the 1% who rule them, in fact its how the country was born.
Fear and greed, twas ever so.
I'm more of a kropotkin guy than marx.
I completely agree (again) - the problem here is not 'left or right' - but 'powerful and powerless.
I do not seek a socialist utopia which is merely another centrally run mess - and I certainly don't want to see the merger of corporation and state (aka fascism)
I completely agree that OWS is being misrepresented by the media - because the media ia controlled by the corporations which are happy for the system to continue - developing into the corporate controlled system they would be happy with (slavery for the rest of us)
...but wjhat makes me mad is the foolish people who interpret simple concepts like "gold is money" and "government is bad" - who ultimately play into the corporations hands - whilst thinking that they are doing the opposite.
Return to the Gold standard - sure - good idea - now tell us how you will control the population with the 'bad news' that their 'wealth' will be reduced by two thirds and their future is more like Africa than America - and don't impose draconian authority.
This is the problem the soviets had - the transition is messy and chaotic and force is often used to manage it - the problem is those in power do not wishto give up the power once it's over.
See Tunisia - See Algeria - both living under 'states of emergency' simply because it's easier to govern with an iron fist than with diplomacy.
97% Media in USA is owned by 7 companies, theres a speech by the tv exec in network that expained it best.
"government is bad" these people are mostly the ones who can survive off their own eforts rather than rely on outside help, that said there are more tha a few who actually cannot yet claim they can.
Gold standard? well i actually bought some gold due to MDB's posts on ZH!
(its an insurance, just enough to bribe my way out of the city, then i can take care of myself)
The only thing to invest in now is skills and knowledge, there is no magic bullet or tool that will save you, being part of a community will help you the most.
(long after your gold/food /ammo has ran out)
'TPTB' have a choice, either blow a new financial bubble and retain power or lose power.
Global government is inevitable, the only question is whether it will be imposed from the top down or the bottom up.
I favor the latter:-)
They have a favorable opinion of Socialism because to them it sounds like "government". What they really want is for the predators out there to be subject to real, effective government - government that protects the deserving from the predation of the undeserving. We do not currently have such a government.
As the greek journo said
"We live in a country where, on the one hand, tax evasion is rampant and, on the other, people are eating out of rubbish trucks because of salary cuts, because they can't make ends meet."
Who among us can say that they live in a different country.
consider the source, it's pure propoganda
People age 18-29 live under the impression that THIS is capitalism, and they have never been exposed to socialism in their lifetime. It is no wonder they are a bit confused.
No - you are the confused one.
'This' is the inevitable result of capitalism - as the system fails and splutters the only way to save it is to control it centrally.
Had you read your Marx then you would know that capitalism will always develop into 'this' - it's totally predictable.
Alternatively you can sign up to the Austiran school and simply let capitalism collapse every so often - but try telling people who want stability and security that their life savings may disappear once a lifetime due to the inconsistencies in capitalism.
The idea that 'this' is anything but capitalism demonstrates a lack of understanding of it.
Marxists are totally unsurprised by 'this' as it was clearly projected as the outcome over 100 years ago.
It is a great idea when you get Magic Money from your parents and live in their basement, and Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.......
Well done - you remembered 'your line'.
Actually socialism cannot run out of 'other peoples money' as the concept is based on SHARED resources. I realise you must believe that God bequeathed you ownership of his land - but actually we SHARE it.
Therefore you cannot 'run out of other peoples money / resources' - simply because they are not theirs to begin with!
...but don't let reason and logic get in the way of you getting your lines right. I guess the most important thing is to spout a simple meaningless catchphrase - which will engage your intended audience - rather than actually bothering to thin about what you are saying.
America has already been conquered - by the 'one liner' - you can get Americans to do anything you want - so long as the instructions are less than 20 words long!
How about 'socialism works until the complete lack of incentives to produce and the huge (normal) incentives to consume ensure that demand completely outstrips supply and the resulting scarcity causes people to seek answers through an increasingly repressive and murderous regime.'?
Would you prefer that you complete idiot?