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Visualizing The Gun-Control Flip-Flops Of Both Presidential Candidates

Tyler Durden's picture


Via Sam Jacobs of,

Americans are on pace to buy more firearms than ever before in 2012. Yet in the run-up to the 2012 election, both President Obama and Governor Romney have downplayed the topic of gun control. And given that neither one is an avid shooter, special interest groups such as the NRA and the Brady Campaign have dominated much of the campaign rhetoric.

But the winner of the 2012 race is likely to nominate at least one new Supreme Court justice - and with two high-profile Second Amendment cases being narrowly decided by split 5-4 Supreme Court decisions in the last four years, it's important to look at how each candidate's position on gun control has evolved over time since entering the political arena.

Scroll down for a historical look at how the position on guns of both Governor Romney and President Obama has "evolved" since both entered the political realm. You'll see that each of them started out more in favor of gun control than either campaign would like you to remember.

Shooting Straight: A Surprising Look At How Both Presidential Candidates Have Changed On Gun Control [INFOGRAPHIC]


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Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:14 | 2950146 yabyum
yabyum's picture

I just bought some Smith & Wesson stock today, Ruger has done very well the last four years. I wonder what other gun and ammo stocks are out ther to provide some chance at a few bucks. If we are going to be a paranoid divided country, might as well make a few bucks.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:17 | 2950355 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

They are both big government statists.  Either way we lose. 

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:02 | 2950752 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

Can't get a .38 bodyguard anywhere right now, might be a good investment. I bought some actual S&W's, as I feel they will be helpful after the election, and no clear winner is named. I think the return on my investment might be higher than yours, I suggest getting physical......

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:25 | 2950799 ACP
ACP's picture

But you can still get an HK MP5 A5, which is cheap practice. They're the darned cutest little things.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:53 | 2950849 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

pricey...  not sure there aren't better alternatives given the cost.  It certainly does a good job though and has a pretty exemplary combat record.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:55 | 2950855 ACP
ACP's picture

The A5 would be strictly for practice, plinking, since it's rimfire, so the gun & ammo are dirt cheap.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:56 | 2950860 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

bah, I was thinking about the good ol' mp5...  not sure what the craze is with rimfire now...  even out of the AR platform...  just seems...  strange.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 00:01 | 2950873 ACP
ACP's picture

Maybe a cost thing. You can shoot all day for only a few $$$. My excuse, anyway.


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 00:42 | 2950954 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Why not a bolt action rifle (sorry 10/22 fans, but they suck) or a pistol?  At least with a 22 rifle, you can practice up on your shooting fundamentals...  likewise with the handgun...  unless you're going to be running an mp5 for fun, I'm not sure of the practicality of a 22 version of it...

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 01:55 | 2951036 ACP
ACP's picture

If a 22 doesn't pack enough punch, there's always this...

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:51 | 2950842 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

There are a lot of great arms companies in the U.S., but I'm not sure how many are publicly traded...

You might have to move onto ammo companies... 

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:17 | 2951243 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

I always come directly to Zero Hedge to get the latest news on gun control and lying politicians. It really helps me sort out the financial questions that keep popping into my head.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 13:18 | 2952189 erschiessen
erschiessen's picture

Buy physical. 

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:10 | 2950148 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

That, sir, is a mindfuck. They can't take a stance with reason because they don't believe in anything. Flip-flops like this are the vestiges of a psychopathic mind.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:53 | 2950286 pods
pods's picture

I read through that list and I had to keep checking who was who.

Either they believe that the 2nd amendment to the US constitution acknowledges our right to keep and bear arms or they do not.

If any politcian starts to qualify their position by the intended use (sporting, defense, etc) they do not believe in our natural right to self defense, and merely see it as another bestowed government privilege.


Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:55 | 2950856 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

So long as the SCOTUS make-up stays the same, we've already got our answer regardless of who's elected.  We've also got an answer for when martial law is declared and they come to try and confiscate the weapons...  patently illegal and unconstitutional.  Might even want to keep a few copies of the court decisions by the door so you can hand them out to the authorities (you might have to read it to them).

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 09:17 | 2951363 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Either they believe that the 2nd amendment to the US constitution acknowledges our right to keep and bear arms or they do not.

Well put, and an important point.  The second amendment grants nothing; it recognizes and acknowledges a pre-existing right.  It says "we didn't give up this human right just to join your stupid government."  It is backed up by the tenth, my favorite and the one that was among the first to be brushed aside because it was the most limiting: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."  IOW, "this constitution-thing grants you effing statists specific and limited powers, and we retain everything else." 

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:15 | 2950166 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Both are gun control advocates.

And whoever is elected will choose at least ONE scotus judge, maybe as much as 3.

That would mean a supreme court with a big majority against guns... for at least 2 decades. And at some point, they gonna make a ruling that will cross the line in the sand of many people and then shiat will hit the fan.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:18 | 2950358 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

The term "gun control" is a classic Orwellian "newspeak" term. It is far more palatable than "anti-gun rights" and should never be used by anyone who supports the Second Amendment -- unless you're referring to breathing and grip techniques to keep your gun under control.

When you use "their" term, you are playing by their rules.  And sloppy use of language -- as Orwell reminded us -- leads to sloppiness in thought.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:28 | 2950806 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

For some reason, thinking is nowhere near epidemic levels today.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 00:06 | 2950892 Precious
Precious's picture

The first act of any competent tyrant is to disarm the populace.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:17 | 2951246 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Yeah, they'll come and take our illegal guns, our marijuana and our meth.


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 18:44 | 2953393 Precious
Precious's picture

Look it up, shit for brains.  History provides dozens of examples, on every continent, including yours.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:26 | 2950198 booboo
booboo's picture

Gun owners look to be hedging their bets but considering the violent past of Mormons trek to Utah, especially in Mo. You would think it would be mandatory fully Automatic weapons in every Mormon closet like the Swiss,
The squishy right will swallow more gun control from their guy though. So if any of you think Mitt ain't Going to tee up some good old gun control as a sop to the wingnut libtards I got news for you.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:55 | 2950295 pods
pods's picture

Mittens sees the right to bear arms as just another bestowed government privilege to be modified or taken away as needed.

Lifetime member of the NRA. Haha.  NRA is not on your side.


Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:24 | 2950363 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

NRA=Neocon Republicans Association

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:32 | 2950385 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

NRA is a pro gun control sucker organization.
Gun Owner's Action League, and NY favorite, Jews For the Preservation of Gun Owners.

The 2nd isn't about crime or hunting. It is about violence to organs and agents of state power.
And, the tree of liberty is thirsty.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:36 | 2950400 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Do not forget the GOA, they ,along with Larry Pratt , and the JFPO, are the only TWO NO bargains organizations nationally.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:36 | 2950399 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The NRA wasn't on Heller's side.

They're nothing but lobbyists concerned with maintaining their own power, and the broader perception by the public and the politicians of their power.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 11:12 | 2951699 Chump
Chump's picture

I was all set to send them a strongly-worded letter after they endorsed Romney in light of MA's permanent ban on assault weapons, until I read that they also endorsed that legislation at the time.  Apparently it's possible to "expand gun rights" in a bill that permanently bans certain kinds of scary-looking weapons.

No more NRA for me.  What a crock.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:24 | 2950199 walküre
walküre's picture

Word is that gun & ammo sales are to outperform even more under Obama's 2nd term.

I think they got that wrong. If Romney got elected, the shit will hit the fan and guns & ammo are your only friends. Maybe the customers of Rugers and Smith&Wesson used the last 4 years to not only buy the equipment, but actually practise the use of said weapons. Although I suspect many are still flipping through the manuals and trying to figure out how to load the gun. They woudn't want to ask anyone for fear of major embarrasment.

Seriously, what is a gun going to help you when Obama's communist marching soldiers are banging your door in. You can shoot yourself before they do. That's about it.

Now with Romney in power, you don't have to fear any communist armies coming after you. The down & out and newly more impoverished however will come to take what they want. Law enforcement will be reduced due to budget cuts and you're all on your very own defending the loot from the starving masses.

Freakin' gun & ammo advertisers got it all wrong.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:43 | 2950242's picture

The Iraqi insurgents didn't just shoot themselves when they were confronted by the military. And they didn't have the Oath Keepers as backup.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:48 | 2950275 walküre
walküre's picture

So Obama is now Saddam Hussein? LOL

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:54 | 2950292's picture

That wasn't the point. The point was that insurgencies can confront trained militaries in effective ways. What are you smoking, giggle boy?

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:39 | 2950407 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

And THAT, my friend, is what the gubmint is certainly concerned about, and will be as "delicate" as possible when handling any civil unrest if it breaks out.  There is a tipping point for most people (myself included, if I'm honest with myself) where the masses will finally become involved.  If you read about an injustice on the other side of the country (perhaps a blatantly unlawful breach and entry of a private citizen's home over trumped up charges), then you'll furiously type your oh-so-stern opinion on ZH.  If it happens again on the other side of town, you might start to seriously decide what to do...fight, flight, or surrender.  They know that you'll have a better chance of surrendering if you have a family to protect (i.e., you don't want to be killed or arrested long-term, and thereby affect your family's financial survival).

But if it happens several times close by, then you'll know it's time to become a Minuteman and literally fight for what you would *absolutely* know at that point to be freedom's survival, when you are more or less pushed against the wall and don't have much of a choice.  This can sometimes be known as the "Bandwagon Effect".  A lot of like-minded people will be waiting on the sidelines for the right moment when they sense their participation will make more of a difference, and when they see enough people in the first wave becoming involved, the true tipping point will have been reached, and everyone will rise up and fight.

Unfortunately, as we all know too well, TPTB have slowly...slowly...incrementally gained their foothold over the years, and they know that they only need to act beneath that tipping point to avoid a fullblown uprising.  For nearly all of us, "fighting for freedom" is a gloriously romantic notion that makes for good history-telling and online video games, but how many people would step up to be among those in the first wave to literally push TPTB back with guns and lead?  It's a very serious that has been answered by previous generations in one way or another.

In other words, the first person to fight back against an unjust attack by the police/SWAT and kill an officer will immediately become painted as a "domestic terrorist", and if he survives the first attack, he certainly won't survive the next onslaught when they radio for backup and bring down his house with hellfire.  And all the neighbors will be watching and shaking their heads, not wanting to take up the torch for freedom and join the unfair fight against TPTB.  That scene will be repeated over and over across the nation, probably broadcast on the nightly news as "examples" to all the sheeple to stay out of the fray and continue shopping at Walmart.

But this leads to my point (and perhaps Crockett's) will be at this point when insurgents and clandestine freedom fighters will pop up and do a little damage here, and a little mayhem there.  The beast won't get a spear to the heart, but it might eventually die the death of a thousand cuts.

I hate violence, and I sure hope to God this won't happen, but I think history (even recent world history) tells us otherwise.  At its core, mankind is always split into two groups.  One that wishes to live freely, and one that always wants more, and attempts to get what it wants by subjugating others.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 09:42 | 2951412 Chaos_Theory
Chaos_Theory's picture

Reading a decent book right now about the Apache tactics of the 1870-1886 Apache Wars.  They knew insurgency war long before Mao.  Little things like learn the enemy's patterns (and standing Armies and LE will always have SOPs, which lead to patterns), strike when they're at their weakest, pick the terrain, avoid pitched battle, etc. 

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:08 | 2950327 DosZap
DosZap's picture

So Obama is now Saddam Hussein? LOL


So, did you not learn ONE thing from Fast N Furious?.

Did you not get the COLLUSION between ObaMao, and Calderone stumping hand in hand as ONE?, even as WE(.goobers) supplied thousands of weapons to the cartels?.

And did you not notice the speeches, and calls for SOMETHING to be done, about the FLOW from the USA to Mehico?,from Hellary stumping, to the El Presidente of Mehico, allowing this travesty to go forward, and get 50,000+ of his citizens murdered?.

Some of us did notice.


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:13 | 2951237 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

Don't forget Herr Bloomberg, 5'2" hero of the Big Gulp, cigs, donuts, jogging Maxis while tens of thousands shivering amongst piles of sand and dead rats. Bloomberg who sent heal clicking cops to other states to break laws in his own domestic Fast'n Furious. Bloomberg with his own personal armed guards for him and his family but not some poor bodega owner who works 120 hrs a week. Bloomberg with mansions all over the world, private jets, constant running SUV, but for the cattle, Global Warming and walking when the streets aren't filled with unplowed snow.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:07 | 2950767 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

At least his middle name is........ maybe he'll hide in a spider hole too...

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:52 | 2950285 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

In the aftermath of New Orleans' Hurricane Katrina the authorities did a live American test of gun confiscation

Uniformed jackboots at the door, 'turn in your guns'

Americans gave up their guns ... no 'out of my cold dead hands', apparently ...

There were will be some resisters, but perhaps not many

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:01 | 2950308's picture

That sort of thing can only work until the folks in Concord hear about what happened in Lexington.


The first shots were fired just as the sun was rising at Lexington. The militia were outnumbered and fell back, and the regulars proceeded on to Concord, where they searched for the supplies. At the North Bridge in Concord, approximately 500 militiamen fought and defeated three companies of the King's troops. The outnumbered regulars fell back from the minutemen after a pitched battle in open territory.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:00 | 2950309 pods
pods's picture

The smart ones would have the old throwaway pump shotgun to hand over.  Not like you are going to outlast 6-12 jackboots with MP5's at the ready.  

The MBR would be tucked away out of sight.  

Of course, with everything being recorded now, they certainly could show up asking for all your specific firearms.  That is the usual MO and the reason why they have those lists to begin with.


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 00:23 | 2950887 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Actually, it's the other way around.  With inter-agency information cross referencing, it's only a matter of time before they have your entire registry...  your insured gun list...  everything.  You'll have to give them everything there is actually a record of when they come knocking...  presuming that the SCOTUS' decision has changed.  Otherwise, you have some fairly interesting legal options for illegal searches and seizures.  In other words, during katrina 2, you give them everything but the ol' beater shotgun that there is no record of you owning.  [the gun has to be registered, but the transaction (who you purchased from) does not when conducted via private sale from a person not in the business of selling guns]

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 10:33 | 2951538 pods
pods's picture

That has been my biggest issue with purchasing new arms.  I remember seeing stories years ago about how the ATF forms were not being destroyed but archived.  All my current arms are outside these lists.  

Even worse, in NY, your pistol permit must list all the sidearms which you are permitted (well it was like that when I lived there).  NC (think that is your homestate as well as mine IIRC) is much different, being a shall issue state.

Bottom line is that if they show up at your house with a list, you are done.  As I said before, a half dozen goons with MP5's are going to win.

If they are doing random searches, toss out the old 30-30 or .22.



Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:29 | 2950311 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

"There were will be some resisters, but perhaps not many."

Not many at all.  Probably a lot fewer than you think.

A great read on this topic is Col Jeff Cooper's, "To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth" (Survivor story).

Fortunately, it doesn't take many real resistance fighters to make a big difference (consider the Warsaw ghetto uprising, for example).

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:58 | 2950584 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

Agreed... human rodents armed with stolen small arms living in the sewers of Warsaw caused the most powerful modern army ever to roam a battlefield to suffer huge losses in men, time, and material.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:46 | 2951302 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

By then 90% of the petty, materialistic Jewish sheeple had willing gone to the deathcamps. Those that stayed and fought were politically active Communist. They had a cause to fight for and knew they would be liked anyway. A mere hick up in the program which mainly suffered from poor quality management and under resources.

Our state thugs are way more subtle. Like occasional fires, they know to manufacturing tire small critics, attaract leaders, fund and egg on...then kill them as messages to the sheeple.
Think of the constant 1984 of always enemies. Keeps the sheeples eyes off the regime.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 09:45 | 2951423 Random
Random's picture

Care to elaborate a bit regarding the death camps? Can you give the names of those death camps please? This is very new to me.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:32 | 2950383 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

New Orleans, are you kidding?  And where outside of the New Orleans city limits did they conduct these tests?

(Actually in that same vein, where inside the city limits did they not conduct the same tests?)


Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:23 | 2950360 Overfed
Overfed's picture

 All of the "Shock and Awe", drones, daisycutters, bunker-busters, thermobaric bombs and helicopter gunships the US military could dish out wasn't enough to make the Mujahideen cry uncle or shoot themselves. You don't think Americans who value their freedom could aquit themselves equally well?

Your second scenario is as likely as any, and you had better have the means and the wherewithal to defend your family and your property. Or just roll over and give it up. Your choice.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 09:50 | 2951442 Chaos_Theory
Chaos_Theory's picture

Lil' bit of a Strawman there...the Iraqi Hajis had REAL weapons coming in from Iran to the Shiites, and from Syria to the Sunnis.  Stuff like 107mm rockets to build indirect fire weapons, 82mm mortars to build IEDs, sniper rifles, and the training to use them all.  And that was before EFPs started flowing in allowing for punching through armor.  Snipers and IEDs were the killers/maimers there, not Johny Muhammad with an AK. 

So, with that background, will real weapons flow through Canada or Mexico to the Americanos?

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:24 | 2950361 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

After only managing to subdue and maintain urban centers, the US has lost in Iraq & Afghanistan, and at this point (or effective 2014) the US has not won a direct armed conflict of any significant size and duration since World War 2 (or the formation of the Department of "Defense" or the construction of the Pentagon).

The number of US veterans of Iraq & Afghanistan dwarfs the number of active duty US military personnel, and they have identical training and tactics (from M4s to M1-A2s).  Going all the way back to Vietnam (Veterans under 65) and those 1.4M active duty are outnumbered 10-1 (assuming a 20%+ a defection rate and a 25% disability rate roughly balance out).

The military could subdue the 5 boroughs of NY, it would probably get bogged down with gangs in the Windy City far worse than in Falujah.  And then it would be DECIMATED.


Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:41 | 2950544 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

Agreed on all points, and let's be honest, the U.S. entered both World Wars late and snatched victory from Germany both times... hardly legitimate victories.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 22:03 | 2950602 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

And then the US copied their "winning" high-price-low-volume MIC production model...

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 00:08 | 2950897 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

That view ignores the political gamesmanship employed.  Wars aren't only about boots on the ground, they're also fought at home, albeit with a bunch of pricks pontificating on how best to suit themselves.  I think it would be specious at best to claim that america's involvement wasn't destined from the start...  the time to enter was left to strategy.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:21 | 2951254 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture


...the U.S. entered both World Wars late and snatched victory from Germany both times... hardly legitimate victories.

You need to read more Sun Tzu.


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 02:48 | 2950983 Jam Akin
Jam Akin's picture

The limitations of the military go even much further than you state, I'd argue UR.  The estimate of what it takes to control an uncooperative population by pros who are in that line of work is approx. 1 to 20 ratio of troops to population.  The original Iraq invasion troop plan was something like a 1 to 66 ratio - for the population of the whole country!  

Total US active and reserve military personnel is under 3 million, National Guard is another < 500K and some significant portion of the total troop strength is "tail" rather than "tooth" - then subtract the number forward deployed.  Add in local police if you like (my town has a ratio of 1 police staff, including desk jocks, for 500 citizens) but if none of them are getting paid, many of them will be sympathetic to plight of family members,  attending to their families' needs etc. there will be even far less available for duty/willing to aggressively pursue any action against law abiding folks.  

The biggest problem most folks who live near major urban areas will have will be defending their properties and families against the angry hungry streaming out of the 'hood who cannot be fed efficiently in the city centers when the system collapses.  Then the vets will have an important role in mobilizing, training, equipping, and planning the defense of their communities with their like minded neighbors, in cooperation with local law enforcement.

Oh, and we will be called on to activate these plans regardless of who "wins" tomorrow.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:25 | 2950200 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

I'm a huge proponent of gun's important to breath properly, maintain a good, firm grip, and keep the sights on target using your natural point of aim.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:34 | 2950231 booboo
booboo's picture

Yes, and don't forget a little Kentucky Windage on windy days with iron sights.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:39 | 2950241 knukles
knukles's picture

A good round is a terrible thing to waste.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:55 | 2950293 SgtSchultz
SgtSchultz's picture

It's always all about shot placement.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:28 | 2950209 Chewybunny
Chewybunny's picture

Obama: Keeping Gun Manfucaturing at record profits.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:30 | 2950217 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

At least that's one industry he hasn't destroyed... or is that the plan? (to arm everybody then crash the economy so the country ends up into civil war for a few years... when the majority (the sheeple) is sick of it, they'll give up their children and whatever rights they got left for a hot meal)

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:34 | 2950230 Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

There should be no gun laws other than the 2a.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:47 | 2950269 Revert_Back_to_...
Revert_Back_to_1792_Act's picture

You have to take the preamble to the Bill of Rights into consideration..gun grabbers would prefer you didn't notice those words. order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declatory and restrictive clauses should be added...

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:10 | 2950334 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

"The People who founded this country expressly demonstrated in the Preamble to the Bill of Rights that the People, quite sensibly, didn’t trust the newly-created federal government as far as they could throw it.  They regarded the federal government as a necessary evil and, as George Washington had once warned, at best a “dangerous servant”.  Therefore, distrusting the newly-created federal government, the People insisted that the Constitution be amended to include additional protections for the People and against the federal government.

From this perspective, you can see that the 2nd Amendment’s guarantee of the right to keep and bear arms was intended to protect the People from federal government.  I.e., the 2nd Amendment was intended to empower the People to shoot federal politicians, officers and employees if they tried to use the Constitution as a device to subject the People to despotism rather than serve them.

(This implies that the fundamental purpose of the militia’s of the States of the Union (referenced in the 2nd Amendment) was to protect the States against the federal government.  This is particularly interesting insofar as modern “state militias” (National Guard) are now primarily under the control of the federal government rather than the governments of the Sates of the Union.  Thus, the  organized “militia” originally intended to protect the People against the federal government, has been captured by the feds and now primarily serves the federal government rather than the People of the States.)

The purpose for the 2nd Amendment was to guarantee that the People had enough weapons to intimidate (and, if need be, kill) federal officers or employees if they attempted to subject the People to despotism (absolute rule)."

More... much more, at:

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:16 | 2950352's picture

Now that's straight shootin'.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:32 | 2950384 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well stated Rocky.

There was never any trust in a far away centralized government...its why the Bill of Rights is part of the founding documents in the first place.

It is, Part One of Three.

It is our contract...with this thing called the federal government.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:55 | 2950446 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture



Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:47 | 2950558 DosZap
DosZap's picture


I agree w/some of your post, although the 2nd really did two things, it let the .goobers know their limitations, and it also let them know the RIGHT was there before the Const, or the BOR's,it was an ins policy of sorts.( the original was the military could not exceed 10% or the armed/total populace,at the time there were approx 1 million Americans/Colonists, and 100k would be the limit.PLUS, the military was never to have access to weapons BETTER than the general population.


That was all we know.

It is a Natural Law. NO man should ever be deprived the right to self defense,the defense of his family or persons under his control and persons who have given anyone the right to WATCH over their property,lives, etc.

Natural Law supersedes all mans law.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 22:08 | 2953866 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

It's a quote from the link supplied.  Not my words.  Wish I could be that eloquent.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:49 | 2950562 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

In addition to the Anti-Federalist Papers and Jonathan Elliot's The debates in the several State conventions on the adoption of the Federal Constitution, Stephen Halbrook's The Founders' Second Amendment and That Every Man Be Armed should be required reading.

But since books are expensive, and tomorrow is vote for FREE SHIT DAY, here's a couple scholarly articles from Halbrook's website-

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 22:40 | 2950701 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Damn! I have been using my rifle incorrectly for years! All those wasted shoot n c's...

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:35 | 2950232 Desert Irish
Desert Irish's picture

Went looking for a passage from Stienbeck's "The Moon is Down" on when the allies reluctantly arm the Norwegian civilians and in the meantime came across these crackers


"The Second Amendment isn't about hunting deer, it's about hunting politicians."
Congressman "B1" Bob Dornan

and this:

As John Steinbeck once said:

  • 1. Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
  • 2. If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics stink.
  • 3. I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.
  • 4. When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
  • 5. A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him 'Why do you carry a 45?' The Ranger responded, 'Because they don't make a 46.'
  • 6. An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity.
  • 7. The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. 'Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?' 'No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle.'
  • 8. Beware the man who only has one gun. HE PROBABLY KNOWS HOW TO USE IT!!!
Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:04 | 2950321 pods
pods's picture

Number 2 is THE rule.


Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:34 | 2950388 Overfed
Overfed's picture

My favorite.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:21 | 2950347 DosZap
DosZap's picture

A lady who set Schumer, and them straight...........bear with it till the very end.Worth the poor quality video.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:48 | 2950560 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

I now live by rule #1.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:37 | 2950233 Democratic koolaid
Democratic koolaid's picture

If the current president of the united states is given a second term more people are gona want and need guns.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:37 | 2950239 Revert_Back_to_...
Revert_Back_to_1792_Act's picture

Turns out that the current bunch have been some of the greatest gun salesmen in history. If you want people to go out and buy something, just tell them it might be banned. 

PS; Bill of Rights has a preamble... order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declatory and restrictive clauses should be added...


Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:52 | 2950240 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

I’ve found that a candidate’s position on gun control is an accurate litmus test for whether that person intends to represent the interests of the state or the people.  It saves a lot of time and effort otherwise needed to suss out what kind of person one’s dealing with.


On a slightly related note, I find it especially contemptible that "in February 2012, Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus announced that the fifth Independence-class littoral combat ship will be named USS Gabrielle Giffords. . . " WTF is with naming a combat vessel after a victim?  What, were "USS Beiruit Marine Barracks" and "USS Vietnam" already taken?

(I really like one wag's suggestion that the vessel might as well be named the USS Shameless Cynicism.)

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:01 | 2950312 knukles
knukles's picture

Hah ha ha ha ha ha
All the misfits, rotten section 8 fluknies, criminals, pedophiles, drunks and despicable louts of immoral character will be assigned thereto.

Who ever thinks this shit up these days?

That may have reached a new low.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:54 | 2950574 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

Amazing, just when you think it can't get any stupider...

I guess when the deck is rolling and the sailors can hardly stand up they will think of GG.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 00:53 | 2950965 knukles
knukles's picture

She's so fucking cute with that slightly misshapen head....
All the sailors'll be wankin' away thinkin' about slurred words, speech impediments and degenerated motor skills..

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 01:01 | 2950980 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

no quarter here. dayum...

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 22:16 | 2950635 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Why not just christen the next SSBN the USS Ted Kaczynski?  They could even engrave each of the Tridents with "Welcome to Primitive, Bitchez!"

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 10:37 | 2951552 pods
pods's picture

More fitting would be the USS Ted Kennedy for an SSBN.


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 10:08 | 2951464 Random
Random's picture

Wasn't that case exposed already to be fake and all the participants as actors? Naming a ship after a fake victim must rank high in the audacity scoreboard. Guess Golf of Tonkin was already booked...

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:42 | 2950249 stant
stant's picture

today was national buy ammo day. i did. might buy some more on the 6th

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:59 | 2950260 DosZap
DosZap's picture

If for no other reason  to vote Romulus, it's for the 2nd Amendment.......

Unlike the Communist's now in control, HE(no matter what his personal beliefs), will be controlled by the conservative base, and the RED state mentality towards weapons.

 He screws with this issue(he's not in Massachusetts any longer),he will be literally defanged before any legislation can pass.

OR ELSE, he risks not getting any of his legislation approved,or passed.

His/our current Pretender n Chief, will do whatever he wants, no matter what.He has NOTHING to lose.........nothing.

Romulus will have a lot to lose.............

The IRS flat out STATED , it  was NOT going to be the ObaMao Care penalty collectors, so they SAID.

Well, then why have they purchased 1,200,000,000.00 in pistols /shotguns, and ammo?.For their agents?.

And WHY will there be a NEW space on the 2012 IRS 1040's for Health Insurance disclosure?.

Easy no need to even comment.......

Every branch of the NEW goobers, has armed themselves to the teeth, and if ObaMao wins, get ready for either total servitude, or total chaos.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:56 | 2950299 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Heller sealed the they'll go after ammo...stock up.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:58 | 2950302 knukles
knukles's picture

Ain't no law against outlawin' ammo.
I been sayin' that for years............

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:34 | 2950394's picture

Rounds of ammunition are arms.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:35 | 2950395 SgtSchultz
SgtSchultz's picture

Get it before they ban online orders and UPS/FedEx shipping.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:26 | 2950511 knukles
knukles's picture

To paraphrase my best friend (God rest his soul) a MGySgt. "No need to check out a weapon.  There'll be plenty on the battlefield."

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:28 | 2951268 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Just keep your head down until it's quiet out there. Then tippy toe out and do some free shoppin'.

Remember to get as much ammo as you can find, since a lot of it will have already been expended to make the streets quiet.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 19:56 | 2950300 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Hello to all fellow global gun owners

When visiting the US I enjoyed that bumper sticker, 'Fight Crime - Shoot Back'

By the way, for you Americans: Surprise! We actually have lots of private civilian guns in Europe. ... Even shooting clubs here in Brussels ...

In our little Belgium: 2 million civilian privately owned handguns, shotguns, rifles
Germany: 25 million civilian privately owned handguns, shotguns, rifles
France: 19 million civilian privately owned handguns, shotguns, rifles

And so on. We do not carry them around, or have as high gun ownership rates as in the US, but there are probably 100 million plus private guns in Europe.

Yes, the crazy UK Brits confiscated all privately owned handguns in the 1990s - But they are extremists. It is not like that on the Continent. Here we know the Nazis can come back, they were here before.

Facts of gun ownership and policies in countries around the world:

For those who haven't seen it, GREAT song and video by Australian Steve Lee, 'I Like Guns' ... 4 million plus views

« I like guns, I like the way they look
I like the shiny steel and the polished wood

I don't care if they're big or small
If they're for sale, Hell, I want 'em all ...

I ain't gonna shoot anyone
And no one shoots at me, 'cuz I got a gun ...

God made the animals, God made the trees,
God made you, Hell, He even made me

God gave me this voice, so I could be a singer
So you tell me why I got a trigger finger! »

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:46 | 2950429 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"By the way, for you Americans: Surprise! We actually have lots of private civilian guns in Europe. ... Even shooting clubs here in Brussels"

How many and what types are you allowed to bring home from the shooting club?

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 23:14 | 2950780 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

.177 baby! pump and shoot.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:03 | 2950317 fuu
Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:33 | 2950386 DosZap
DosZap's picture

The term "gun control" is a classic Orwellian "new speak" term. It is far more palatable than "anti-gun rights" and should never be used by anyone who supports the Second Amendment -- unless you're referring to breathing and grip techniques to keep your gun under control.

When you use "their" term, you are playing by their rules.  And sloppy use of language -- as Orwell reminded us -- leads to sloppiness in thought.



Same with the term ASSAULT WEAPONS.

An Assault weapon, must be/have the following qualities to even be classified as an Assault Weapon.

One, it must be capable of both Semi automatic fire, and FULLY AUTOMATIC fire.

Two, It must use an intermediate rifle cartridge, not a FULL powered rifle round.

If it fails to meet BOTH abilities, it is not, never has been,never will be ONE.

More Orwellian Double Speak.( Even gun owners are guilty of being stupid when it comes to this).

The MSM is stupid,and devious, and every murder or shooting reported use's this term,or Automatic weapons,......when in reality, it /they are simply Semi Automatics.

One squeeze of the trigger, one shot per squeeze.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 20:41 | 2950413 DosZap
DosZap's picture

The NRA is a LONGSHOT from where they should be, BUT................they have the numbers(membership), and they have the clout, and the $$$$$$$$ to keep legislation to a minimum, and strike fear into many in DC's politcos hearts.

So, even though they are not my favorite, JOIN them as they are the strongest link we have at present.Best $35.00 a year you can spend.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:09 | 2950473 deerhunter
deerhunter's picture

Cook County just declined to implement a 5 cent per round ammunition tax.  They will however keep a 25.00 per firearm purchased tax to be implemented soon.  The tollway authority doubled tolls last year.  State income tax went from 3 to 5 percent.  I believe also they raised the businees tax by 33%.  There is no need to outlaw guns,  just make ammo too expensive or hard to get to be affordable through legislation.  I think the tax in the City of Chicago on a pack of cigarettes is now 5.25.  Imagine a 500 rd box of .22 ammo worth 22 dollars with a 25.00 tax on it.  We as citizens have already lost control of government.  They work for us right?  Average streets and san worker in City of Chicago makes over 100K a year.  We have met the enemy and it seems to be us. 

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:54 | 2950576 DosZap
DosZap's picture


I have long advocated a Con Con.

38 states are all that is needed to convene one.

They get to appoint their OWN delegates, and the state, and local, federal govt's have ZERO say in what they decide.

If WE had the balls, we could clean the slate, and get this train back on the tracks.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:18 | 2951247 GCT
GCT's picture

Dos the problem is the whole systems is now money and greed.  A con con will never be convened.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:29 | 2951274 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

The ultimate irony would be the need to go to an indian reservation to buy tax free ammo to take back the country.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 13:14 | 2952172 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

Collar counties are your friend.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:24 | 2950506 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture

not voting tomorrow and got my extra thousand rounds of 9mm ammo delivered the other day


feels good man

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:42 | 2950545 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Well you can always go vote for the issues. There's lots of stuff on the ballot aside from the scum in house/senate/president...

A bunch of states have votes on nullification of federal mandates...

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 21:57 | 2950582 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

And people wonder why I refuse to vote.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 22:24 | 2950630 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

Watch the movie "Red State" if you want to see how the "bad guys" would fare overall against millions of motivated, armed Americans. Granted the "good guys" in the movie were murderous religious nuts, but that's besides the point. The bad guys in the movie took heavy, unsustainable losses. The German army took heavy, unsustainable losses against poorly armed civilians in Warsaw. It took the extended, costly use of 15 inch howitzers to finally level the city.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 02:23 | 2951060 Augustus
Augustus's picture

Axelrod in 1995:  Cut Funding to Big Bird; NRA Responsible for OKC Bombing – and president responsible for all budget deficits.


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:02 | 2951227 Money 4 Nothing
Money 4 Nothing's picture

I heard a rumor that Obama is going to sign ATT on Wednesday. Has nothing to do with Congress or the Senate. Canada is already clearing the decks for implimentation of this Treaty. Just be advised.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 08:32 | 2951277 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Thanks for the rumor.

We'll take a look at the lies right after this commercial break.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 10:37 | 2951544 Money 4 Nothing
Money 4 Nothing's picture

Here's the story Dick. You better take this seriously.

(AP Reuters)

On Wednesday Obama Took the First Major Step in a Plan to Ban All Firearms in the United States .

The crooks can’t be controled and the government is a separate entity. Looks like our biggest fear is coming true. Only the crooks will have guns, government included and who will be the biggest crook?

> U.S.reverses stance on treaty to regulate arms trade
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The United States reversed policy on Wednesday and said it would back launching talks on a treaty to regulate arms sales as long as the talks operated by consensus, a stance critics said gave every nation a veto.
> The decision, announced in a statement released by the U.S. State Department, overturns the position of former President George W. Bush’s administration, which had opposed such a treaty on the grounds that national controls were better.
> On Wednesday Obama Took the First Major Step in a Plan to Ban All Firearms in the United States . The Obama administration intends to force gun control and a complete ban on all weapons for US citizens through the signing of international treaties with foreign nations. By signing international treaties on gun control, the Obama administration can use the US State Department to bypass the normal legislative process in Congress. Once the US Government signs these international treaties, all US citizens will be subject to those gun laws created by foreign governments. These are laws that have been developed and promoted by organizations such as the United Nations and individuals such as George Soros and Michael Bloomberg. The laws are designed and intended to lead to the complete ban and confiscation of all firearms.
> The Obama administration is attempting to use tactics and methods of gun control that will inflict major damage to our 2nd Amendment before US citizens even understand what has happened. Obama can appear before the public and tell them that he does not intend to pursue any legislation (in the United States) that will lead to new gun control laws, while cloaked in secrecy, his Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton is committing the US to international treaties and foreign gun control laws. Does that mean Obama is telling the truth? What it means is that there will be no publicized gun control debates in the media or votes in Congress. We will wake up one morning and find that the United States has signed a treaty that prohibits firearm and ammu nition manufacturers from selling to the public. We will wake up another morning and find that the US has signed a treaty that prohibits any transfer of firearm ownership. And then, we will wake up yet another morning and find that the US has signed a treaty that requires US citizens to deliver any firearm they own to the local government collection and destruction center or face imprisonment.
> This is not a joke nor a false warning. As sure as government health care will be forced on us by the Obama administration through whatever means necessary, so will gun control.
> Please forward this message to others who may be concerned about the direction in which our country is headed.
> We are being led like a lamb to the slaughter (Socialism/Dictatorship).
> The crooks can’t be controlled and the government is a separate entity. Looks like our biggest fear is coming true. Only the crooks will have guns, government included and who will be the biggest crook?


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 12:29 | 2951912 Jam Akin
Jam Akin's picture

Congratulations.  By posting this you've been successfully played on behalf of the Red Team.  Thank you for your active participation.

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 11:17 | 2951724 moneybots
moneybots's picture

"the US has not won a direct armed conflict of any significant size and duration since World War 2"


That depends on how one defines win.  The original stated objective in Korea was to reurn South Korea to its prewar government.  That objective was accomplished. 

The stated objective in Iraq, in 1991, was to remove Saddam from Kuait.  That objective was accomplished.

The second objective was to remove Saddam.  Saddam has been removed.

Since WW2, there has been no direct armed conflict the size and scope of WW2, so yes, the U.S. has not won that which  has not occiurrred.


Tue, 11/06/2012 - 13:00 | 2952118 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The battle of Kuwait lasted a whopping 4 days, and was a tactical victory in a pitched battle that was part of larger and still ongoing war.

To date there has been no peace treaty signed with North Korea, and the US troops still have not come home half a century later- achieving certain objectives is not the same as winning.

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