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The Gini Is Out Of The Bottle: Did China "Outcapitalism" The US, Or Did America "Outcommunism" China?

Tyler Durden's picture


In several days, the ornate theatrical spectacle that is the Chinese Communist Party's 18th Congress (captioned here) will come to a triumphal end, with a new leader, Vice President Xi Jinping, carefully hand-picked after the Bo Xilai fiasco, from among the equal of equals, with just one thing on his mind. No, not how to transfer $5 billion from that Swiss bank account to Singapore without being noticed.

The patriotic thing preoccupying the lucky successor to President Hu Juntao will be a simple one: how to promote well-being and equality among the people. After all, caring about the people is the primary preoccupation of any good communist country. As such, key concern for the new leader and his government, at least as has been televised, will be the income distribution inequalities and corruption among the Chinese population, something outgoing leader Hu himself stressed. Indeed, as the most recent Chinese Gini coefficient (the measurement of inequality of income in a given society) reading shows, in China this has risen from 0.42 in 2007 to 0.48 in 2009.

It is this reason why the Chinese society will have to engage in far more effective wealth redistribution because the last thing the country with no real social safety net can afford is social unrest and upheaval in a time of declining economic growth.

So far so good.

Where there does arise some confusion, is when juxtaposing Chinese social inequality with that of the US. Recall that China is a de facto communist country, whose society is, at least on paper, equal. One wonders, then, how it happened that US society now has a Gini coefficient that is lower than that of China: did communist China "outcapitalism" the US, or has the US simply, and quite successfully, "outcommunism" China?

We expect to find out soon, just as we expect to see what happens if either China or the US fails to address this rather stunning divergence away from propaganda ("China is a communist country"; "The US is capitalist") and into reality.


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Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:41 | 2974262 CPL
CPL's picture

You got Marx in my Keynes...


No I got Keynes in your Marx.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:44 | 2974274 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Biden 2016 Born in the USA

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:49 | 2974294 IPsecurityinIT
IPsecurityinIT's picture

With questions like this the one in the title of this article who needs answers to what the real problem is?

(yes I am mad but it makes me so happy... hope I don't seem as strange as knulckles)


Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:15 | 2974386 Fredo Corleone
Fredo Corleone's picture

On a more attractive note ( Gini coefficients notwithstanding ), Mr. Jinping's wife is a celebrated recording artist and performer in their native land...

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:19 | 2974409 MillionDollarBogus_
MillionDollarBogus_'s picture

Gully, I gave you a down vote, just because....

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:23 | 2974424 economics9698
economics9698's picture

The simplest way to help the peasants is to pay them in silver, hard currency.  Getting paid in real money that cannot be stolen by theft through inflation would be the biggest wealth transfer from the rich to the poor that any country could do.

I think China realizes this and are on the world’s biggest gold buying spree ever.  I think the Chinese transfer to gold will “kill two birds with one stone:

1.  End the dollar dominance as a world currency.

2.  Eliminate inflation for the 1.3 billion peasants.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:44 | 2974475 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You mistakenly think that the people that run and do the planning in China give two shits about their cheap labor.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:43 | 2974599 economics9698
economics9698's picture

I don’t think you grasp the precarious position the Chinese leadership is in, communist, fascist, capitalist, socialist, when there are 1.3 billion peasants running around looking to survive.  The leadership is one bad month of inflation and food shortages away from revolution.  Imagine 500,000 pissed off starving peasants in Beijing looking for some food.  That is what the Chinese leadership deals with everyday.

Second China is a mercantile economy.  It only makes sense they would want gold for their labor and not paper.

Going to hard money eliminates two problems at the same time.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 21:32 | 2974719 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

well what are they waiting for. They should get on with it already.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 23:39 | 2975052 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Timing is everything.  

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 22:46 | 2974946 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

How much difference could it make?

Virtually every penny these folks are paid is back in the hands of the government and party wonks before morning, anyway.  Just like we do it in the US, except we have the "private market" perform the same function.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:25 | 2974568 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

Both examples of "growth" were mostly just credit bubbles pulling forward demand and wasting resources.  

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:03 | 2974344 SILVERGEDDON

 "Fuk Yu."

"No - I Fuk Yu last night. "

" I kill you - Fuk Yu my wife ! "

" Oh. I fuck up - so sorry. " 

Chinese version above, American version below.


" Honey, where are the popsicle sticks and tape ? Tonight's our special night, y'know. "

" I checked with the HMO again - they say this IS the only version of Viagra that they prescribe on the new medical plan. "


Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:13 | 2974381 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Please make an appointment with the nearest mental health professional asap.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:27 | 2974433 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Is it my eyesight, the two bars are almost identical in length?

So what's these -ism thinge? The 60-ish is rising, the 230-ish is falling. Both facing prospects of unrest, failing.

Does either have WHAT IT TAKES to make it through? I wonder...

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:29 | 2974576 El Tuco
El Tuco's picture

Chinese husband says to wife "I want 69"

Chinese wife says " why you want broccoli and beef"

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:20 | 2974560 I am more equal...
I am more equal than others's picture

Having just spent a couple of weeks in China - Canton Fair, etc. and far western country side... at the street level and everyday life - they are communist in name only.  Capitalism is alive and well in China.  So many little shops in the countless 12 to 30 story apartment buildings.  Some one posted that they live on less than $2 per day - bullshit.  Saw a Lamborgini dealership there and hundreds of upscale cars on the streets that would make Hollywood look cheap by comparison.  Rents at some of the apartments I visited are equal to the rents for similar space in the US. 

The hot and spicy girls and food in western China were amazing.  Smog is a problem in the big cities.  Dali was amazing.  Communist have put themselves in a bad position. To constrain the people will result in massive turmoil.  They are wise to let it go and make the masses consumers.  Its taking place in the countryside now.  watch out, when they really start consuming, the US will have to get its goods from someplace else.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:51 | 2974612 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Shortly after that we will be the cheap labor making goods for China.  

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:58 | 2974628 q99x2
q99x2's picture

They called off 2016 in this release of reality. It all ends when nuclear armed groups of humans are pushed to shove. They just want to know the outcome before finalizing the next version. All the photographs and videos of the UFOs that look like colored lights are the last patches to the existing code. Sorry no Biden in the next release.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:58 | 2974319 resurger
resurger's picture

2.5bn people make less than $2/day.

Why those Central Planers dont just STFU!


"Better Living through Lending"

How the World Bank is Fighting Poverty

At the heart of the Bank’s work is its focus on poverty reduction and improving opportunities for the poor. Poverty causes hunger and malnutrition, and makes people vulnerable to shocks, such as the global economic crisis, climate change and natural disasters. The World Bank contributes to reduce poverty by supporting the design and implementation of country poverty-reduction strategies through a variety of analytical and lending instruments. It aims to expand growth opportunities, reduce vulnerability to shocks, and improve poor people’s access to basic services.,,cont...


Are those analysis true?




Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:11 | 2974372 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I know many people who would lend, if they would get a reasonable return. What you are suggesting is that banks should be just banks again and not a den of casio thieves. How novel.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:59 | 2974631 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"2.5bn people make less than $2/day."

The US has much much higher standard planned for our future: 300 Million Americans making $2 Billion a Day, yet unable to afford a cup of Coffee.

 "Terrible Living through Printing!"

Lets not forget the plan to load up every young person with 6 figures in student loan debt.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:42 | 2974270 Inignort
Inignort's picture

To paraphrase Russell Ziskey, "The U.S. hasn't out communism China. But, we're willing to learn."

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:43 | 2974271 Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

They're just still bitter about the Opium Wars and shit.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:44 | 2974275 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


3 bowls a day.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:46 | 2974279 resurger
resurger's picture

It's all fucked up anyway, ill just go to Brazil!!

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:47 | 2974285 akak
akak's picture

Did China economically blob-up the US, or did the US outcitizenism China?

Make me laugh!

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:00 | 2974326 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

haha. we should move to China, they will have rampant capitalism soon.

usa will go Foward on the Long March in search of o-phones.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:43 | 2974469 centerline
centerline's picture

Where the hell is Anon when we need him most?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 07:51 | 2975510 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

He is working extra shifts at Foxconn since so many of his fellow workers have hit the ground unexpectedly.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:24 | 2974567 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Ha! Made me laugh, Chinese Ginism coefficients are eternal!!!

Now lets run one on indoor toilets per thousand ;-)

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 23:36 | 2975041 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

The mettle, the mettle is the primary factor here, the matteringest part, the crustiest bit.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:48 | 2974287 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Inaguration speech "We are floating the Yuan and dumping treasuries en masse, gold bitchez"

never happen right?



Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:58 | 2974321 ekm
ekm's picture

I replied to your question on that previous post.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:02 | 2974340 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Hey you mean from last night? I did see the answer, thanks. I was not too surprised. I could have phrased it a bit better. What I was wondering as well was...was there a contingent of people that had the ability to secure things like precious metals that made it (relatively speaking) easier to get through that time?

Basically what we see people on here doing in prep for a dollar devaluation, was there a similar group of people back then over there? If so how did it work out for them?

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:09 | 2974366 ekm
ekm's picture

Hm, good question.

I don't know about the rest of eastern europe, but in Albania holding gold was forbidden during communism, except for rings and necklaces. My grandfather had it under the ground in this backyard for 45 years, from 1945 until 1990 when communism fell.

Many family businesses started and became successful due to that quite large amount of gold. I know for a fact that real gold does not corrode, I have 3 of those coins with Napoleon's head.


Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:12 | 2974376 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Thanks for the info EKM. I really appreciate the insight.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:54 | 2974305 ekm
ekm's picture

I have a suspicion that you guys took my post yesterday about 25% working for the 75% and made it something bigger.


And yes, USA is out-communisming China, not by force, just by use of free will of the people.


I call it 'massive stupidity'. Whereas Nietzche formulates it differently:

"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs it is the rule" – Nietzsche


Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:57 | 2974315 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Schiff calls it the idiot vote.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:46 | 2974478 centerline
centerline's picture

A friend of mine part jokingly used to talk about writing a book about his Theory of Stupidity.  This of course would under the chapter related to group stupidity... multi-nodal stupidity.  lol.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:27 | 2974572 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"I have a suspicion that you guys took my post yesterday about 25% working for the 75% and made it something bigger."

Not all of us ekm...not all of us.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:29 | 2974575 ekm
ekm's picture

Point taken.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:09 | 2974308 BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

 What gave it away? Was it really the numbers? ...or The Great Wal Mart of China Suicide Vampire Squid Vote 2 Party 666 Sucker Suite on their dusty ass?

Most Favorite Nation status, rike a Citizen's United GMO Peanut Butter Cup, just because it's cheap, tastes good, it does not mean it's not addicting, deadly, and you have not been tempted. MMMMM Muppets...

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:59 | 2974320 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Too funny but it is true.  China is becoming Capitalist and America is becoming Communist.

Yet, what do you expect when all Chinese people work and only 50% of American people work.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 18:59 | 2974323 news printer
news printer's picture

People 'UnlikinG' Romney on Facebook

On Friday Mitt Romney page was losing 593 likes an hour.
By Saturday, the exodus was up to 847 likes an hour.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:00 | 2974329 Essential Nexus
Essential Nexus's picture

Debt in context: Halo 4 first day sales: $200 million dollars.  National deficit/day: 3.1 Billion dollars.  If microsoft gave every dollar of revenue it generated from Halo 4 on the first day, it would pay for 6.5% of the deficit for the day.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:01 | 2974330 Uskatex
Uskatex's picture

Long ginicologists, bitchez!

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:02 | 2974339 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

"Gini coefficient" is as valuable a figure for comparison as GDP.

In theory, the more capitalist the society, the higher the Gini coefficient should be, but since every single variable about how the country is run affects the calculation, pretending it's a useful comparison is disingenuous at best.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:09 | 2974365 rhinoblitzing
rhinoblitzing's picture

Gini????  WTF r u talkin about...

Barabra Eden over Mary Ann anyday...

as andrew dice clay said, " if you stood close enough to the tube, you could see bush "


Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:09 | 2974367 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

This has happened because small segments of China work that damn much harder than the rest. Just like execs of failed companies in the usa they earned every penny by working a bazillion times harder. Let the great kleptocracies roll!

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:10 | 2974371 stopcpdotcom
stopcpdotcom's picture

"Did China "Outcapitalism" The US, Or Did America "Outcommunism" China?"

Brilliant question.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:16 | 2974391 Anglo Hondo
Anglo Hondo's picture

I drink all my gini with my tonici.  What the hell?  I had to, I was all out of rumi.

All that was left in the bottle was the genie.


Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:19 | 2974406 chump666
chump666's picture

I think China still out-corrupts the whole world.  No Western business wants to deal with the Chinese, same with the Indians.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:21 | 2974413 archon
archon's picture

Somewhere along the way, China learned that having some producers is actually a good thing, since every good communist still needs to pay for bread and circuses for the proles.  Perhaps the USA needs to learn that lesson from the Chinese now?

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:21 | 2974414 AldoHux_IV
AldoHux_IV's picture

Ism's are for the sheep to ponder while the fox gets away with the spoils.

Policymakers can always rely upon a dumb gullible populace that will cheer them into office only to be betrayed, but hey, at least they were part of the winning team of [insert desired political ideology].

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:21 | 2974416 humblepie
humblepie's picture

"Did China "Outcapitalism" The US, Or Did America "Outcommunism" China?"

Who makes Apple I-gadgets? 

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:29 | 2974440 archon
archon's picture

I dunno who makes them, but I know who didn't make them....  YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT, APPLE!

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:21 | 2974418 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

Gini's and bottles?i thought they discontinued Jersey Shore?

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:29 | 2974437 Segestan
Segestan's picture

The new born baby named ...communist... was feed by mommy fiat banker, and now the baby has grown to think he's the NWO.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:45 | 2974477 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

More like the Chinese out Fascismed the US, and the US is trying to keep up with a smaller and far less adept popluation of cheap laborers.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:46 | 2974479 Hubbs
Hubbs's picture

Hmmm. I was alsways thinking, China was a communist ship sailing to US capitalistic country.  US was a capitalist ship sailing to communist country.


They bumped into each and sank.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:48 | 2974483 Der Wille Zur Macht
Der Wille Zur Macht's picture

Bad statistic is bad statistic. Gini coefficient is as useful as a cock-flavored lollipop.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 21:09 | 2974653 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you can buy the tit flavored ones with EBT cards now

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:58 | 2974512 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

Get ready for a real Fascist Fooking!

Fook Me!

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:03 | 2974528 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

If Obama were found to be a Marxist would any of you be surprised? Come on. Reallly.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:48 | 2974607 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Marxist turned fascist, it only took like six months in 2008 before he was even crowned...theres not much difference between them really, just levels of conyism.

A national socialist believes the state is superior to the individual...just like a commie.

Here ya go...the commies are wetting their pants over O'Barry's win...go figger ;-)

And someone...a tad saner...

"The whole gospel of Karl Marx can be summed up in a single sentence: Hate the man who is better off than you are. Never under any circumstances admit that his success may be due to his own efforts, to the productive contribution he has made to the whole community. Always attribute his success to the exploitation, the cheating, the more or less open robbery of others. Never under any circumstances admit that your own failure may be owing to your own weakness, or that the failure of anyone else may be due to his own defects - his laziness, incompetence, improvidence, or stupidity." - Henry Hazlitt

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:14 | 2974552 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Did China "Outcapitalism" The US, Or Did America "Outcommunism" China?


The latter end of your most honorable title. huí tóu jiàn, biao zi.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:38 | 2974590 surf0766
surf0766's picture

The U.S. has been socialist like for the past 40 + years. We are moving to communism because "it is easier to govern in China".

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 21:08 | 2974648 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Latest year available? was it 1928?

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 21:12 | 2974658 kindape
kindape's picture

the way GINI is calculated could mean Chinas high number is as much a byproduct of their high population as such a % of rich people. All it takes is one super rich to skew the GINI

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 21:39 | 2974745 Belteshazzar
Belteshazzar's picture

as with most numbers in China the gini there is most likely cooked- the actual number is over .5

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 22:01 | 2974803 Yardfarmer
Yardfarmer's picture

Ever since the strategic initiative culminating with Nixon's visit to in 1972, China has made steady and significant strides in economic and industrial development which has resulted in the remarkable emergence of the Middle Kingdom onto the world stage as a major power.Largely as a result of the outsourcing and exportation of American industry and technology over the past four decades, China has of late been accorded the mantle of newly crowned world economic sovereign. Its banks are now the largest in the world and it recently surpassed Germany as the world's largest exporter. Such financial eminences as Jim Sinclair and Jim Rogers, now a globetrotting American expatriate resident of Singapore, never tire of their endless promotion of the economic miracle of Chinese industrialization and development. The legendary "gold guru" Sinclair, Chairman and CEO of Tanzanian Royalty Exploration Corporation, owner of 121 prospecting licenses in an area comprising 2,154 sq. miles in Northern Tanzania, excoriates the corruption of Wall Street bankers and the COMEX as he waxes eloquent on the great virtues of the eminently wise and resourceful Mandarins as in the following, taken from his

1. China is going to build a major consumer based economy. About that there is no question.
2. China is going to lead the world in time in technology because of the cost thereof.
3. China invented money.

4. China has a millennium plan, and works that plan.

5. The Chinese do not just do something as a reaction to unforeseen circumstances like the West. China acts within the confines of long term planning.

6. Their long term plan is to be the most powerful nation on the planet.

7. That will require the strongest money on the planet.

8. As predicted in the book "Boom" in the early 90s, they will succeed.

9. This is why friends of China in Africa with world class leadership are investment opportunities in every category of business.

Of course Sinclair's fulsome hagiography conveniently omits some questionable steps on the path to greatness such as the Moaist genocidal purges of the 50's which resulted in the deaths of tens of millions, the draconian one child policy which through preferential abortions of females has left an entire generation of the country a lopsided male enclave. Add to this the brutal occupation of Tibet. And let's not forget the Tiannemen Square massacre, the most widely publicized among many other atrocities too numerous to mention. Mr. Sinclair like so many other 20th century entrepreneurs before him simply finds the domestic rigors of totalitarian regimes an irresistibly friendly climate for business, along with the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Schiffs, Warburgs et al. Needless to say, Mr. Sinclair's experiences in the gold mining industry in the Lake Victoria Greenstone Belt must have acquainted him with the need to "crack some eggs to make an omelet" as the saying goes. It is also certainly no coincidence that his friends in the PRC have established economic and military liaisons with the Tanzanian leadership which Sinclair expects to result in the creation of "one of the strongest armies in Africa". Sinclair, who is fond of quoting the poetic epigrams of ancient Chinese military strategist and general Sun-Tzu, author of "The Art of War", might benefit from a study of a work concerning more contemporary Sino stratagems, Mao-Tse-Tung's "Little Red Book", in which the author states in more prosaic terms, "Political power grows out of the end of the barrel of a gun"

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 22:56 | 2974968 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

    Of course <...> of a gun"

That sounds a bit nihilistic at first thought, but haven't the most tumultuous *and* most productive societial epochs generally occurred when the gummit and the biznesses and the criminals are all on the same side for a few decades?

There's work to be done by everyone!  Hand me that shovel, and I will dig your grave!

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 22:45 | 2974941 honestann
honestann's picture

At this point, both are certified slave farms.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 01:08 | 2975171 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture


I will tell you one important difference. There is no perception on the street that the little guy is being shut out of the capitalist free for all. Millions and millions of Chinese are constantly setting up street level businesses without worrying about being killed by Walmart style retailers or fast food chains. It is truly an economic Wild West. You can see the hunger for success in the eyes of all the young Chinese.

Many of these businesses fail and when they do, the Chinese simply attribute it to bad luck. Those that succeed often turn into the seeds of much more substantial enterprises because capital formation is culturally a family endeavor.

You obviously do not see this kind of bubble up capitalism flourishing in the US now. The startup costs for small businesses (and I dont mean Romneys idea of small) are prohibitive. And the situation is only exacerbated by Groupon style kleptocapitalism. We have also created a short term mindset that glorifies the get rich quick via an IPO meme, hence the proliferation of all kinds of online ventures that are designed to generate hoopla but not revenue.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 03:13 | 2975368 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Very well said, WB.

You may very well have nailed that one to the wall behind those standing folks in the Great Hall of The Spirit of Enterprise.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 04:48 | 2975425 MiniCooper
MiniCooper's picture

Has anyone noticed anything odd about that Gini chart?

The USA is surrounded on the chart by developing countries. The evidence of the political, moral and economic decline of the USA to the same status as a Developing country is right there. It has already happened and we didnt even notice.

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