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Obama To Demand $1.6 Trillion In Tax Hikes Over Ten Years, Double Previously Expected

Tyler Durden's picture


If the Fiscal Cliff negotiations are supposed to result in a bipartisan compromise, it is safe that the initial shots fired so far are about as extreme as can possibly be. As per our previous assessment of the status quo, with the GOP firmly against any tax hike, many were expecting the first olive branch to come from the generous victor - Barack Obama. Yet on the contrary, the WSJ reports, Obama's gambit will be to ask for double what the preliminary negotiations from the "debt deficit" summer of 2011 indicated would be the Democrats demand for tax revenue increase. To wit: "President Barack Obama will begin budget negotiations with congressional leaders Friday by calling for $1.6 trillion in additional tax revenue over the next decade, far more than Republicans are likely to accept and double the $800 billion discussed in talks with GOP leaders during the summer of 2011. Mr. Obama, in a meeting Tuesday with union leaders and other liberal activists, also pledged to hang tough in seeking tax increases on wealthy Americans." Granted, there was a tiny conciliation loophole still open, after he made no specific commitment to leave unscathed domestic programs such as Medicare, yet this is one program that the GOP will likely not find much solace in cutting. In other words, all the preliminary talk of one party being open to this or that, was, naturally, just that, with a whole lot of theatrics, politics and teleprompting thrown into the mix. The one hope is that the initial demands are so ludicrous on both sides, that some leeway may be seen as a victory by a given party's constituents. Yet that is unlikely: as we have noted on many occasions in the past, any compromise will result in swift condemnation in a congress that has never been as more polarized in history.

From the WSJ:

Kevin Smith, a spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner (R., Ohio), dismissed the president's opening position for the negotiations. He said Mr. Boehner's proposal to revamp the tax code and entitlement programs is "consistent with the president's call for a 'balanced' approach."


Mr. Boehner hasn't specified a revenue target that would be his opening bid. He has said he would be willing to accept new tax revenues—not higher tax rates—if Democrats accept structural changes to entitlement programs, the ultimate source of the U.S.'s long-term budget woes.


The president's opening gambit, based on his 2013 budget proposal, signals Mr. Obama's intent to press his advantage on the heels of his re-election last week. However, before gathering at the White House with lawmakers on Friday, he will meet with chief executives of a dozen companies Wednesday. Many executives have aired concerns about the economic consequences of the looming "fiscal cliff"—and the risk of another standoff.




Speaking to reporters about Mr. Obama's plans for Friday's talks, White House spokesman Jay Carney said, "the president has put forward a very specific plan that will be what he brings to the table when he sits down with congressional leaders."


"We know what a truly balanced approach to our fiscal challenges looks like," said Mr. Carney, using Democrats' language to mean spending cuts combined with tax increases.


Republicans already have appeared willing to cut a deal that results in Americans paying more taxes if it averts the scheduled spending cuts and tax increases due to take effect at year-end.


"New revenue must be tied to genuine entitlement changes," Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R., Ky.) said Tuesday. "Republicans are offering bipartisan solutions and now it's the president's turn. He needs to bring his party to the table."

More here, but we can summarize it as follows: the lame duck congress will posture, prance and pout. And it is a certainty that in the 15 (see calendar below) remaining days it is expected to be session it will get nothing done. Which means, that once again, it will be up to the market, just like last August, just like October of 2008, to implode and to shock Congress into awakening and coming up with a compromise of sorts. Only this time, now that Bernanke has shown he will "get to work" at a moment's notice, the impetus to do anything as a result of even a market plunge will be far less. After all why lose face, and put your career in jeopardy when there is the Fed which, supposedly, can offset a market crash, courtesy of the shining example set by Chuck Schumer.

It is thus quite possible that this December, for the first time in history, we may get to a point where not even a 20% market drop will be sufficient to get a Congress, now habituated with the Fed bailing it, and by it we mean the market, out, to cross bitter party lines. The problem then becomes one of what we saw happen at 3:30 pm today, when the Fed's Chairman-in-waiting, Janet Yellen hinted at an even longer ZIRP, and... nothing.

To summarize: think the economy is doomed if the Congress doesn't get its act together? You ain't seen nothing yet.


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Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:35 | 2978676 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Like I have been saying, there will be no grand bargain. He wants us to drive off the's in hs best interest.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:36 | 2978682 ACP
Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:41 | 2978696 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Just cut the defense budget by 40% and we'll save 12 trillion over three decades (in real, 2012 dollars).

Cutting the incredible largesse that is the federal budget (especially laying off 1/4 to 1/2 the federal workers who do little to nothing for 2x the salary their private sector counterparts make, not to mention the incredible federal worker retirement benefits) could easily save another 5 to 7 trillion over a similar period.

Anyone who actually believes the Department of Education, as just one example, is a success, let alone that it's not an incredible failure, is DELUSIONAL.

Anyone who actually believes that ANY taxes should be raised to feed the beast of inefficient, damaging government, that rips civil liberties to shreds and acts as a drag on the resourcefulness and motivation of private economic entities and forces, is similarly DELUSIONAL.

Let's cut the silliness and just CUT THE BUDGET, TAXES & GOVERNMENT.

I'd doubt that nary 1 in 1,000 people, aside from government employees, will detect a scintilla of degradation in their standard of living, if the government budget was slashed by 40% across the board (quite the opposite, actually).

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:43 | 2978705 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Make it 50% cut and I am in also.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:55 | 2978737 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture



make it $160T and *then* come talk to me. we've got way more bets than that to be covered.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 06:21 | 2979107 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

Not a snow ball's chance in hell.

The US economy is now heavily comprised of govt jobs, defence jobs, and services such as finance, education and health thru which liquidity is released and circulated to ensure consumption (The US economy's role in global trade is to be irrepressible consumers.).

So just STFU and do your part. Consume recklessly.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 06:42 | 2979117 economics9698
economics9698's picture

58% is entitlements.  Cutting defense will do nothing.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:25 | 2979224 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

It needs to be 1.6T a YEAR. 160 billion? What good is that, if you overspend by 1.5T? 

We probably should seek an amount whereby the people are willing to revolt. What is THAT amount? Death by a thousand cuts- the code of fascism.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:12 | 2979321 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

So Obamas grand plan is to raise taxes by 160billion a year. And how much will he raise spending? I say give him everything he asks for so when the ship sinks there is no question who is to blame.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 13:04 | 2980242 ZackAttack3
ZackAttack3's picture

Exactly.  160 billion a year, that is soon to be our monthly budget deficit.  In 5 years that could be our bi-monthly budget deficit.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:24 | 2979349 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

I never understood why people called bush and now obama 'hitler' as history shows these guys are both far closer to mussolini's policies than hitler's.

Private enterprise and the military in bed together never ends well.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 11:10 | 2979683 Joe Davola
Joe Davola's picture

Private enterprise and the military in bed together never ends well.


Jeez, does everything have to reference Petraeus these days.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:56 | 2978739 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

... And Obama is still an order of magnitude short ...




Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:18 | 2978780 IllusionOfChoice
IllusionOfChoice's picture

Exactly what I was thinking looking at $1.6T over 10 years. Our budget hole is more like $1.6 trillion per YEAR. These guys just don't seem to be very good with big numbers.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:33 | 2978810 MiguelitoRaton
MiguelitoRaton's picture

Boehner's response "Refund all tax payments for people making $250K+ for the last 10 years"...and the negotiations begin

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 02:52 | 2978991 hmmtellmemore
hmmtellmemore's picture

The budget will not bebalanced because it cannot be balanced.

That leaves 2 methods: inflating away debt and defaulting on debt.  Since the vast majority of US debt is owned by US citizens, this is a double whammy against Americans.  I think this has to end in one way:  a US state tries to secede and martial law is declared.  The US will use emergency powers to try to prolong the game.  That will include seizing gold/silver ETFs.  


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 04:23 | 2979049 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Oh I'm so happy I get to pay more of my income to fling bombs around the world, to pay bankers back for their gambling losses, and to make sure struggling companies like Exxon don't have to pay any taxes

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 06:19 | 2979110 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

I am wondering if we include the export of the commodity countries (in USD), wouldn't our financials look less dire? 

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:12 | 2979195 j0nx
j0nx's picture

Add in your list pay for Tyrone Jackson to sit on his ass in his 2000 sq ft section 8 townhouse eating his doritos paid for by food stamps and then yeah I concur with your sentiment.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 04:49 | 2979065 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

@ Hmm  -  the US Govt grabbing Gold and Silver ETF's? grasping at straws, there's nothing material/metallic in them!

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:08 | 2979076 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

we're getting what we deserve...getting what we deserve - OK! Get it over with already!

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:14 | 2979498 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Not just what we deserve, but what we have been asking and voting for, too.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:38 | 2979586 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"Govt grabbing Gold and Silver ETF's? .like grasping at straws..."

Not Really. They probably do it by raising the capital gains taxes on PMs and PM ETFs to 90%. Consider that there is a 28% capital gain tax on PMs already. Putting a significant tax increase is not very far fetched in my opinion. Its is not if the Sheeple will complain since the majority of them already cashed out there PMS (aka "Cash for Gold") during the 2008-2009 crisis.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 11:29 | 2979766 zdk45
zdk45's picture

As long as they stick to that "tax the rich" thing, that should balance it all out...

-sent from my Obamaphone

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:48 | 2978720 ACP
ACP's picture

I'm all for it...'s I can cut my personal defense budget, which has been rising the last several years...

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:40 | 2978822 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

instead of buying your own low-end personal defense itemalia, you could buy a share of a tranche of a pool of high-end defense systems.

q: what's a terse and catchy name for the military-industrial-financial-media-twoParty-education-incarceration-sports-sickCare-regulatory-porn complex? so much to say! so many moving parts!

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 07:37 | 2979163 max2205
max2205's picture

Hear that? It's the sound of money leaving the country.....

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 07:47 | 2979170 max2205
max2205's picture

Why would I want to give more tax money to a govt that can't manage their costs. Fuck em. I ain't and won't pay. Drop out!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:54 | 2978727 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Dude: Vietnam was explicitly orchestrated to uberspend so they could take us off the gold standard. It worked, but it took a long time. The feed trough of corporate war profiteering was just a bonus.

Fast forward: 12 years of constant war in the middle east. They are trying to crash the dollar, but it's taking a lot longer than expected. It's harder because in effect our fiat dollars are securitized debt on everything, everywhere. So it's taking some time. So what so do? Hire some whacko to occupy the white house who will propose a spending binge that would blow your mind. Check! Done.

Dude they are trying to crash the dollar. Trying as hard as they can.

Why? So they can replace it with a one world fully digital currency.

Notice that they will need Europe to crash simultaneously, so the "one world" thing is necessary.

Nobody is interested in cutting spending; they've all been promised fiefdoms in the new regime.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:11 | 2978742 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

There's no doubt in my mind that the elite who meet to beat want to reset the global commerce system around a global currency, whether that be SDRs or whatever other currency that's implemented. I must be a conspiracy theorist to buy into such a whacky concept that they've so poorly kept hidden.

But we went off the gold standard practically speaking a long, long time prior to 1971 or the inception of the Vietnam War. I realize that we, as a de facto matter, "went off the gold standard" in 1971.*

The technical crashing of the USD or any other currency can be done in an instant. The practical issues surrounding this are the complicating factors that make the task far more difficult; it's much easier to institute a smooth yet deep change with a simmer rather than a boil. A boil poses bringing about the types of reactions that threaten the establishment's grip on power.


*On August 15, 1971, the United States unilaterally terminated convertibility of the dollar to gold. As a result, "[t]he Bretton Woods system officially ended and the dollar became fully fiat currency, backed by nothing but the promise of the federal government." This action, referred to as the Nixon shock, created the situation in which the United States dollar became the sole backing of currencies and a reserve currency for the member states. At the same time, many fixed currencies also became free floating.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:01 | 2978751 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Never attribute to malice that which can be sufficiently explained by stupidity

Don't know who originally said that but I became much less paranoid after hearing it.



Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:48 | 2978840 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

you haven't met my shift supervisor

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 03:37 | 2979020 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Yogi Bera, maybe? Perhaps Sandanista? Jim Morrison?

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 03:39 | 2979024 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Robert J. Hanlon - "Heinlein's Razor"

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 15:10 | 2980905 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

The quote can be explained sufficiently as naivete. Malice is everywhere, especially when there's money involved.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:20 | 2978786 IllusionOfChoice
IllusionOfChoice's picture

That explaination does explain why the central banks are concerned about BitCoin. If they go all digital, they sure can't suffer competing currencies, or the game's up!

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:45 | 2978835 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

a fiefdom *and* a delicious steak!

You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy, and delicious --


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:47 | 2979619 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"Vietnam was explicitly orchestrated to uberspend so they could take us off the gold standard."

The costs for the Vietnam war was one of the reason why the US was forced off the gold standard.  The other reason was that the CIA and other gov't institutions used large amounts of gold to fund black ops mostly to fund anti-communist gov't and rebels around the world during the cold war.

"Notice that they will need Europe to crash simultaneously,"

I don't think the finacial crisis leads to a one-world-gov't. Its causing the opposite as the people around the world are revolting and are pressing for a breakup (consider all of the spanish provinces that wish to become independant. Financial crises lead to destabilization and revolution. Something that TPBT wish to completely avoid. The bottom line is that gov'ts over promised and are heading for a collapse that will result in anarchy, and war. History has identified this consistant pattern: Debt Crisis - Financial Crisis - Trade Wars - Currency Wars - Political crisis - World War.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 02:46 | 2978982 you enjoy myself
you enjoy myself's picture

or, to sum up what you just said in a pithy slogan that's been making the rounds, if you want the clinton tax rates then adopt the clinton spending.  christ, even 2005 spending would be a massive, gigantic reduction (and we had 2 wars going to boot) - which is a point that needs to get made more often.   absolutely no one remembers 2005 as a period of austerity (or even for a want of anything), but yet suggesting we pare down to 2005 spending levels is equated to lining the middle class up and shooting them all in the head.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:31 | 2979241 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

No representation without taxation!

- Ned

{not my original, still good}

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 03:36 | 2979018 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

Look at the debt clock. Saving 400 bn a year won't make a dent in stuff. We are accumulating further obligations at the rate of 11 Trillion a year. Your 30 years of cuts would hardly cover more than one year of future obligations.


First we had the Raw Deal

Then we had the Grate Society

Then we had "compassionate conservatism' run amuch.


Bottom line, though, is that it will be money (fungible time) that is removed from those who work and delivered to the retirees. That is true no matter if the government does it in taxes, or the individual does it by selling assets. The estimate is 85% of the GDP to take care of boomers like me when we officially retire. That, my friend, is truly scarey. The population Ponzi has run out of new suckers.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 07:28 | 2979151 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

That's why I'm thinking of emigrating. To make me pay the same for Social Security while slashing the benefits by raising the retirement age to 70 (five years before the average male's life expectancy) is in effect raising my taxes. As was seen on previous articles, I am in my mid 30's and I am lucky to have a job. My employer is trying to pay me as little as possible, so I'm making less than the Boomers when they were my age. To raise our taxes will probably be the straw that breaks the camel's back. My generation is fucked.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:20 | 2979209 j0nx
j0nx's picture

You're making FAR less if you factor in cost of living and inflation into the mix and it's been that way pretty much since the late 80's and getting exponentially worse every decade.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:20 | 2979252 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Do it. Do it now. Never look back. (Except to post your dissidence on ZH)

I did it more than a decade ago, and though the USSA disgusts me, it cannot destroy me.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:35 | 2979088 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Never happen, even RP didnt have the balls to take on the MIC,

War is peace and ignorance is strength.

MIC dont give a fuck who you put in charge as long as they pays for protection.

Capone should of been a general.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:51 | 2979275 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

TruthinSunshine is absolutely correct. Except that so much electoral money and power is invested in those government slugs that the leeches cannot let them go lest they lose their cushy jobs. Nope, it has to all go down the drain to shed the parasites and get the attention of the electorate, if they are still allowed to vote.  Obama may just declare himself emperor ala Napoleon and crown his'sef.

Side benefit, the parasites will reduce their own numbers in the quest for resources after the EBT cards go TILT.  Well armed, they will succeed in the short run, the long run is dicier. We'll see after that....


Got Glock?



Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:47 | 2978700 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

There isn't much that government does well, but the empire is very efficient at propoganda and distraction.....oh yeah and spend money.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:16 | 2979334 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Obama ad buy was $1.83 per vote recieved Romney spent $6.35.

American Crossroads spent $105 million on its campaigns nationally.

Restore Our Future, the pro-Romney super PAC, spent $143 million.

Just those two groups, combined, spent more than the 2000 Rove-led presidential campaign of George W. Bush.

Karl Rove has now redistributed more money from billionaires than Barack Obama has.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:43 | 2978706 Orly
Orly's picture

Cut and paste.  Cut and paste.  Gee, Mr. Olson, this reporting thing is kinda easy!


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:49 | 2978722 Orly
Orly's picture

These thread-jumpers are getting a little out of hand.  Hard to have a coherent conversation when everyone's trying to be at the top of the board...

Jus' sayin'.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:59 | 2978745 jballz
jballz's picture


You not the sheeple are distracted and link to post to put this fucking shit here too?

Kill  yourself.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:01 | 2978753 Orly
Orly's picture

Ok. man.

I'm out.

See ya!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:39 | 2978695 surf0766
surf0766's picture

I agree doc. Either way he wins and the cliff still happens. One is just faster than the other.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:52 | 2978728 Silver Bug
Silver Bug's picture

Hey let's just get it over with. The Dollar is going to zero anyway. QE to infinity is here to stay.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:01 | 2978749 The Master
The Master's picture

Absolutely right. If we go off the cliff, the Republican congress will take the blame and this will ensure the extinction of the Republican party. To borrow a Star Wars analogy, Obama is Palpatine.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:19 | 2978782 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I don't know that I agree the republican party will go extinct, they are definitely relegated to the minority, after all TPTB need us to have the illusion of choice. And they also need somebody to point a finger at. Otherwise  your Star wars analogy is accurate.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 02:11 | 2978954 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

One of the most timeless lessons of politics is that much can be accomplished for a particular party by allowing the other party to proceed with its agenda.

In this case, the GOP can step back and ask to see the tax proposals pass in the Senate first.  They won't.  The Democrats themselves will never vote for this.  It's just like Obamacare.  An overwhelmingly Democrat Congress could not get a single payer healthcare system passed.  They just barely got Obamacare passed and it is a very much watered down version of what they wanted.

The GOP can just sit back and watch as the Democrat Senate, again and again, fails to pass these tax increases.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 02:53 | 2978996 you enjoy myself
you enjoy myself's picture


this is exactly what the 2013 House should use as their gameplan.  we saw the same thing with O's two absurdly irresponsible budget proposals - they were voted down 98-0 when push came to shove.  the House should sit back and play truth or dare with the Senate.  dare them to own their demagoguery.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 04:55 | 2979070 Herodotus
Herodotus's picture

A tax bill cannot originate in the Senate.  Per the constitution, it must originate in the House.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:49 | 2979097 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

A revenue bill must originate in the House, a bill addressing spending cuts, however, can originate in either house.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:21 | 2979522 odatruf
odatruf's picture

The Senate can pass a tax bill and then the House can take it up by introducing a House bill that mirrors the Senate language and pass it. The Senate will have to rubber stamp it one more time, but this happens all the time.

The idea that the House must go first is fine as far as the academics go, but in practice it is mostly meaningless.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 07:36 | 2979162 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

The Democrats wouldn't need to do anything to raise taxes when the Bush tax cuts expire. They are just going to go up by that amount. Any new taxes Obama wants to add in are fantasy.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:10 | 2979314 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

We all know that eliminating the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy will not make much of a difference in the deficit ($42 billion a year) and if raising taxes on the rich is redistributionist socialism, someone should should have told Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan, whose rates on the rich were 91, 70, and 50 percent.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:36 | 2979381 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Again, no one ever paid those rates either because there were all kinds of tax loopholes.  Who would ever work if their effective tax rate was 91%?  Would you work 10 days to give 9 days of it to the government?

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:24 | 2979530 odatruf
odatruf's picture

They weren't just loopholes. Before the 1986 tax reforms, deducting every dime of interest paid on credit cards, auto loans, etc. was as much a part of end of year tax work as deducting mortgage interest still is today.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:01 | 2979453 northerngirl
northerngirl's picture

I am no fan of the Republican party in general, but I think you are correct.  Elections have consequences and to the, "Victor goes the spoils".  Let Obama and company run with their agenda, because it will all end the same.  There will be a lot of talk, but no action.

On the passage of Obamacare, I think it was, "Deemed", passed because the Senate seat held by Ted Kennedy flipped to Republican Scott Brown. 

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:21 | 2978787 zuuma
zuuma's picture


I guess Mr. Obama will just have to find my assets to tax them.

Very best of luck!!

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 01:27 | 2978904 ReactionToClose...
ReactionToClosedMinds's picture

eliminate the Army, Navy Air Force, Marines & Coast Guard ... they are all part of Eisenhower's military -industrial complex.  And the veterans benefits are a scam anyways.    We need to save the entitlements.  Let MoveOn .org defend us ... but we don't need defending as the USA has already made the world safe so get rid of the entire war-mongering Dept of Defense!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:35 | 2978681 JustPrintMoreDuh
JustPrintMoreDuh's picture

WooHoo!!  Tastes like freedom.  

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 04:52 | 2979068 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

the President just can't stop picking others pockets ...must be the Chicago upbringing, or training as a lawyer

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:38 | 2978686 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

here's your chart of the day: and let's see how it was doing while everyone here was calling the end of the world: wow..."looks like a total retard is in charge"...OF THE ECONOMY. what's next? "land redistribution"? how about wooden nickels? plastic pennies? can't even afford that can we....

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:38 | 2978689 jal
jal's picture

Ask for more than "the cliff"

Settle for "the cliff"


Everyone is happy!


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:38 | 2978690 surf0766
surf0766's picture

All your taxes are belong to us..

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:39 | 2978691 fuu
fuu's picture

That is only about $5,073.56 every second for 10 years.

Ben is printing $30,864.20 every second starting in January right?


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:39 | 2978692 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Cut Obamacare. Presto, bitchez.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:14 | 2978773 1eyedman
1eyedman's picture

o'care is a tax hike....very regressive even....


at some point things need to be paid for, we have to decide what we want, b/c we cant pay for it all w/out massive tax hikes...

i'd like to move the military back out of every country on the planet, eliminate medicare, and welfare, that would make a dent


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:29 | 2979084 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Dont forget farm subsidies and tarp.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:33 | 2979244 three chord sloth
three chord sloth's picture

Q. Obamacare = regressive?

A. True!

The only way the numbers work is if we get the low demand folks -- the healthy with a job -- to subsidize everyone else... and that means the young and employed must pay MORE than they would've paid before. Yet every young working person I know thinks they are one of the ones who will be on the "getting" side of this program.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:41 | 2979393 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

"Yet every young working person I know thinks they are one of the ones who will be on the "getting" side of this program."

The young are dupes.  Many of them have no idea what they are doing.  They don't have a dollar in their pocket, they think their plastic will work everywhere Visa is accepted.  They have no clue about debt or slavery.  Those that read ZH are probably the only ones that have a clue.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:39 | 2978693 rockface
rockface's picture

None of this matters.  Check out Michael Campbell's opening monologue Nov 10,

Bear Market Trend in government confirmed:

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:44 | 2978710 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

Tax hikes are just in time to tank these markets even faster.


More job losses pending.


Who voted this guy in?  Nicely done.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:45 | 2978714 adr
adr's picture

Good luck with that. There won't be any workers left to raise taxes on and no corporations either.

Sherwin Williams is just about dead, guess nobody is painting homes aymore.

Even massive reruns of The Big Lebowski couldn't save AMF, bowling is bankrupt.

And with a big FU to Obama another crproate welfare favorite, New Energy Ethanol just went bankrupt. How the fuck did that happen?

But Cisco beat by a couple pennies using mark to fantasy, BACK THE FUCKING TRUCK UP and buy stocks full tilt, BET THE FARM!!!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:52 | 2978729 Agent P
Agent P's picture

"Sherwin Williams is just about dead, guess nobody is painting homes aymore."

I highly recommend checking the stock chart before repeating this statement in public.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:47 | 2978717 Agent P
Agent P's picture

By my calculations, that takes care of 1 year of deficit.  Now, if we can just figure out the other 9 we'll be all set.  I'm sure he'll cut spending to take care of those.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:52 | 2978732 bart12
bart12's picture

I am all for going over the fiscal cliff. The media is fear mongering about the "fiscal cliff". People need to understand that this fiscal cliff is the best gift to USA to finally tackle its 17 trillion $ debt and increasing. The fiscal cliff will be the first step to resolve US debt problem immediately...Automatic Tax increase and spending cut is the only option for USA if anyone know how to do the math of addition and subtraction. If the US govt decide to kick the can down the road, the empire will definitely collapse worse than anything we have witness in history.. As for stupid Congress & Obama, the best they can do is to do nothing (when did they ever fix anything??)..

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:27 | 2979546 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Totally agree. If only their inaction would also trigger the right outcome in other cases.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:57 | 2978735 SillySalesmanQu...
SillySalesmanQuestion's picture

For Ultimate Do-Nothing Championship of the World!

In the Red Corner: The Crying Tan Man, Mitch the Bitch, & Grover the Groveler.

In the Blue Corner: Nancy Nazi, Scarey Harry, and two-time defending champion of the teleprompter, TOTUS.

Each round will consist of 86% fillibustering and the remaining 14% for verbal jousting.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 02:14 | 2978956 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

As I said above, the House doesn't have to act.

The Senate, with a Dem majority, will never pass these tax increases.  The GOP House doesn't have to obstruct.  The Democrats won't get this through their own caucus.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:56 | 2978738 ilovefreedom
ilovefreedom's picture

How does 160B a year solve anything without complementary spending cuts?

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:43 | 2979401 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Thats the 16 trillion dollar question.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 23:57 | 2978740 Essential Nexus
Essential Nexus's picture

Is this bullish, or double bullish?

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 02:42 | 2978977 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

So ZH thinks that the repubs and Obama will not neg anything ?

This isn't the National Hockey League...

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:01 | 2978747 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

For all you still confused, let me sum up how it will really go down: The can will be kicked until TEOTWAWKI.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:24 | 2978795 Tenshin Headache
Tenshin Headache's picture

The can will be kicked until the kickers are swept away by the debt tsunami. There are a number of ways that can happen, but happen it will.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:03 | 2978754 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

Taxes are good citizen. Taxes are like vitamins.

Government spends your money efficiently.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:24 | 2978794 Curt W
Curt W's picture

It took us 219 years to add our first 10 Trillion of debt.

Obama thinks he can beat that in under 8

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:43 | 2978829 FleaMarketPete
FleaMarketPete's picture

No, Obama doesn't give a fuck about the debt or you.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:33 | 2978809 FleaMarketPete
FleaMarketPete's picture

$1.6 billion in taxes < $1 trillion per year vote buying. Can the Obama mongrel parasites be, I mean new minority superpac, really that stupid?  Yes they are. But what’s a couple trillion in healthcare for white trash bitches, free 40ozers for blacks, and free education for mexicans among friends.   I'm moving to leach off Germany.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:38 | 2978819 Big Ben
Big Ben's picture

Best time for a recession is just after an election. You have four years to recover.

If Obama is determined to drive over the cliff, Repubs should make sure they are not blamed. They could pass a bill that kicks the can for another 3 years but also requires the Fed to be audited and requires the House or Representatives to approve all Fed members every 2 years. This will never make it through Obama and the Senate. So Repubs can claim Obama sent us over the cliff because he didn't want to diminish the powers of the Fed.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:43 | 2978831 FleaMarketPete
FleaMarketPete's picture

I blame Bama.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:41 | 2978826 FleaMarketPete
FleaMarketPete's picture

No because there are plenty of black led superpowers throughout history.  I mean look at all the success they've had in Africa.  No wait.  Err.....guns, gold, and more guns.  The US, and world (sorry German fascists), are done for.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:26 | 2979083 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Toussaint L'Overture?

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:45 | 2979268 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

hahaha. Haiti is not a superpower.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 07:11 | 2979135 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Richest man ever in history, the only man to be declared richer than today's Rothschild family with their current US $350 billion, is said to be a black man, King Mansa Musa I of Mali (1280 - 1331 CE), who ruled the Malian Empire in Africa.

The net worth in gold of King Mansa Musa, is calculated in today's fiatsco money as US $400 billion.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:52 | 2979282 Kobe Beef
Wed, 11/14/2012 - 01:00 | 2978858 jtz5
jtz5's picture

I think the Dems look at this Fiscal Cliff as a means to completely destroy the Republican Party. I see no bargaining by the Dems in an attempt to portray the Repubs as USA haters.

With the House and Executive branch on the side of tax increases, they will just make it appear the Repubs are more for the rich. I think they don't care if the economy crashes. It will just reinforce the big gov mantra.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:22 | 2979080 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

50 cents of every tax dollar will still go to the military regardless of who has the presidency but you keep harping on about how your sides shit dont stink if it makes you feel better.

Given the repubs have been in a sulk since 2008 its pretty easy to paint them as negative.

The MSM line is that republicans value profit more than people, dems are the opposite.

Neither side plays fair, if any president of the last 50 years had been honest there would never have existed a class of people dependant on welfare which a rogue dem leader could use to win a class war.

Unless you forgot, the deal was, bush clinton bush clinton bush,etc etc

Obammy threw a spanner in the works by beating hilary, dont worry once obama goes there will be another rich white guy in the white house, the new sherrif wont last long, personally i'm amazed nobody has killed him yet.

But then again when romneys own campaign team photoshops his audience to look three times bigger when they had the choice to not release a photo of the event its beyond stupid.

Dont even get me started on the Orca thing, 37,000 repub volunteers sat on their ass looking at an error screen, they could have tipped the balance, the repub party paid the media to tell them what they wanted to hear.

Articles like this are just tylers way of giving repub voters a reacharound so they dont feel sad about the election result.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 11:18 | 2979575 odatruf
odatruf's picture

"50 cents of every tax dollar"

I don't think you understand numbers the same way most of us do. If by 50, you really mean 18.7, then you'd be correct.

In FY2012, defense spending was $677 billion of the total $3.6 trillion in federal spending. That's 18.7%.

But in case you are looking for more reality, all the mandatory spending (SS, Medicare, Medicaid and debt interest) combined claimed 61.9% of that $3.6 trillion.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 01:07 | 2978873 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

No matter which way the US shuffles its deck of cards, the reality is that the deck no longer has any aces and the dealer has one arm tied behind his back.

Society and systems need such a fundamental overhaul in the USA that it seems almost impossible to achieve.

In the meantime we will alll be subjected to grand statements of intent from all sides and even more posturing but the unpleasant truth is that the downward spiral still has some way to go.

Mind you, the rest of the world is not much better off.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 01:12 | 2978881 Number 156
Number 156's picture

Dont worry, the Dow will cross 14000 again.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 03:00 | 2979000 xtop23
xtop23's picture

Ahhh, chasing Alpha. Can't blame 'em, what with ZIRP through 2014.....ummm I mean 2015...... uhhhh wait ... I meant 2016....

Of course a gallon of gas will cost 8 bucks.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 03:35 | 2979014 Number 156
Number 156's picture

Exactly. Inflation will drive up share prices just as it would gasoline, or anything else priced in dollars, and one will find that chasing alpha is like chasing wind.

People seem to forget that sometimes and rely on stock prices too heavily as a barometer for the economy.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 03:27 | 2979015 SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

I don't think there are any more rabbits in that hat.  Even if it does cross 14K, the volume will be shit - a circle jerk of 3-5 algos.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:40 | 2978910 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

But of course he is.

Where else will the money come from to keep the Wall Street Mammon Sucking Machine going?

Bend over everyone!  Bend over because here it comes!  The Republicrats will of course go along to protect the Kleptoligarchy; the banks and corporations must be saved!!!

Bleed every last cent, every possible asset from the plebians!  Capital gains taxes, estate taxes, VAT tax, less medicare and S.S. and higher insurance premiums and banking fees!

That's right!  You pay them to hold your money!  You pay them to fuck you in the ass!

Welcome to the Pyramid Scheme of the Kleptoligarchy!

Kneel!  Kneel slaves! 


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 01:55 | 2978931 Zgangsta
Zgangsta's picture

This is news?

Obama is just following the first rule of negotiation:  always start out by asking for much more than you want.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 02:17 | 2978958 archon
archon's picture

Don't let a good crisis go to waste...  he'll crash the country, pick up the pieces, and declare himself Emperor for life....

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 06:52 | 2979123 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Bush tried that and he still lost, obama is just a black bush.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:29 | 2979234 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

I love black bush!

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:34 | 2979573 falak pema
falak pema's picture

on a woman.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 02:24 | 2978964 sitenine
sitenine's picture

All else has failed, so now he's just using the martingale system.

Double down, bitchez!

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 04:00 | 2979035 Manic by Proxy
Manic by Proxy's picture

Do you suppose that in the future, when after people have realigned as small groups and communities, living agrarian-based lives, that future historians will debate what happened to make people of our age so stupid? Was it a plague? Polluted water supply? Toxins in the food chain? Why, they would query, would a people enforce poverty and strip wealth from the populace and in the process create severe deprivation and a consequence-enriched environment known as "The Great Undoing". Why did they follow leaders who were so manifestly evil, incompetent and devoid of imagination?

Oh wait, everyone was just naturally stupid. Never mind.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 04:41 | 2979058 UGrev
UGrev's picture

Let me see..  16T now..  and then 1.6T in hikes over 10 years...  add the 1, carry the 3.. divide by stupid.. YUP!!! WE'RE STILL FUCKED BY 30T!!

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:10 | 2979071 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

so Senate and Congress can't do maths, all the way up to Mr President trying to balance the budget trying to shakedown taxpayers for more

is Bumma's advise really so piss-poor-stupid he doesn't understand he needs major spending cuts as Boehner is suggesting?

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 06:49 | 2979119 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

We dont need no roads, police or fireservice, nor the army just stop wasting my money on that shit and give my taxes to those millionaire job creators, i'll just wait for the golden stuff to trickle back down on me......

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 07:54 | 2979174 UGrev
UGrev's picture

Hey shit for brains.. there was a time when there was no income tax and this country did just fine. In fact it was quite prosperous.  You do also realize that the income tax was employed as a means to help pay for wars.. right?  

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:30 | 2979240 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

50 cents out of every dollar you pay in taxes goes to MIC.

If that dont tell you who's in charge you are dumber than year zero govt above.

"Its the gubbermint thats evil and the MIC is my friend, it keeps me safe from all those evil freedom hating people who dont live in america...."

I love ZH, twice as many morons per sq foot as free republic and yet just as stupid.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:41 | 2979382 UGrev
UGrev's picture

It's actually 53 cents.. but I wont' be pedantic. We don't need to be spending 50%+ for this shit. I'm sick of it. It doesn't do anything. The ancient way of conquest is over.. this muscle flexing shit is legacy bones. The world is now too small for it. It needs to be reeled back in significantly. 

How is it that we have all this technology but we can't build roads that last a single, fucking, winter..  You know, NASA developed a composite material that would (as they say) last 100 years and endure the harshest weather with minimal maintenance. You want to know what happend to that tech?  BURIED!!! becuase it would make paving roads an obsolete effort. Too much is spent lining the pockets of politicians and their associated businesses.

My money going to actually making this country better would be better than it being ripped from my pockets without so much as a reach-around.  

Kindly go fuck yourself. 

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:03 | 2979459 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

But that tech is long term stuff for the good of people, the current system both govt and business demand short term profit at all costs while bombarding muppets with propaganda about entitlements(obama/reagan phone), instant fixes and consumption (AAPL).

America is at that awkward stage, It's too late to work within the system to change it, but too early to shoot the bastards in charge.

TPTB will always try to reflate the bubble one more time and it will always work until it dont.

Wake me when that happens.


You can reduce your defence spending but then the USD crashes as it loses the only backing it had, the US military.

catch 22, good luck with that.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:38 | 2979587 maximin thrax
maximin thrax's picture

On the other side of the coin, the wealthiest 1% pay 38% of income taxes, which is about 20% of federal revenue. Corporations pay around 12% of federal revenue. And business gets credited for half of our FICA taxes. So in the eyes of our government the rich and the corporations are responsible almost half of all federal revenue. Thus, they are a priviledged class. So they get what they need to increase income and profits because that's the quickest and easiest way to significantly increase tax revenue.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:49 | 2979276 youngman
youngman's picture

Now the income tax code is HOW POLITICIANS make money.....every interest group now has to donate to their politicians to get a meeting on an issue...its a revenue generator for them...


What is funny to that Obama is all for cutting the military...but when his economy tanks..and it will and 30% are unemployed...that is when he will need a strong military to protect him....maybe he thinks he is going to use the unions....but any communist or dictator will tell you pay and feed your military they have your back....this guy spits on them

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:59 | 2979292 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

At this point, I'd welcome a coup. Come on Colonels, we know you're watching...


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:22 | 2979345 UGrev
UGrev's picture

we know you really didn't mean [sarc].. so do the suits..

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:26 | 2979352 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

You're right. The best thing that could ever happen is DC burning to the ground. A coup would just try to prop the whole empire back up again. You got me, UGrev.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:40 | 2979386 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Impotence and ignorance in a single statement, salutations.

Never happen, the US military only does coup in foren cuntryz.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:53 | 2979434 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

I would say JFK, McKinley, and Lincoln, but that was a different group of plotters. Not the US Military. They only do it for the benefit of the same plotters who've already taken over the USA.

Shit. now I'm gonna get extra-judiciarily expedited for sure. But before I get droned, I'd just once like to the see "the defend the Constitution from all enemies, ... domestic" part in action.


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:24 | 2979531 Chaos_Theory
Chaos_Theory's picture

Probably safer to just sacrifice a goat so Odin directs an asteroid the size of Manhattan right at the center of the Mall.  Anything else gets the fisting from TSA (if you're lucky...if you're not, those 40 S&W HPs fit perfectly in the skull of domestic "terrorists"). 

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:32 | 2979564 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Praise Odin!

Yep. Which is why I left the USSA a long time ago and don't come back. Now, the Kommissars could still twist my local government's arm, but I'm neither a "terrorist" nor "domestic". Funny how far you have to go for a little Freedom of Speech these days..

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:38 | 2979388 UGrev
UGrev's picture

Is see what you did there :D

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 09:40 | 2979391 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:53 | 2979641 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Taxation isn't about what you need, the Govt doesn't work out what they need to spend and then think how to raise the money, they pitch for as much as they think they can get away with and then think what to spend it on.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 04:51 | 2979066 zilverreiger
zilverreiger's picture

Payback time for you american freeloaders! the world sighs with relief now the north american leech is going to pay back, too bad he needs 10 times more to make any form of actual progress.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:07 | 2979075 Floodmaster
Floodmaster's picture

Housing capital gains should be taxed. Boomers must pay their bills.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:43 | 2979253 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:44 | 2979265 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

if you convince enough people that what you are doing is hopeless and the end is always a month away..why you can do anything and the people will say things are so bad that the .gov people need to do it..

create a crisis then use it to move your plan foreward has been used time and time again and damn it it works,

Just to let everyone on ZH know: the answers to our worlds economic problems are simple, but add in the one item most important to bought pols: how do we do it and keep the 1% wealthy and in power..that requires the madness we see today for it is not solved by simple honest means, but only thru crime and lies.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:42 | 2979262 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

What capital gains?

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 05:25 | 2979082 BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

Mark of the Beast ...bitchez.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:33 | 2979245 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

when they come for your IRA and 401k mr buffett and munger will cry I am not taxed enough!!

when they come for buffett and mungers wealth and not the sheltered income ,,what will they say then?

in the end somebody has to go to jail the best outcome for the elite's much better than the rope.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 06:11 | 2979103 falak pema
falak pema's picture

FDR, FDR, FDR....replaces USA, USA, USA.

Seriously, if USA produces 11 MMBPD oil/liquids and all that frack gas  like a nation gone abiotic in 2020, Potus's problems are over! By 2030 he is exporting to China! 

We can now plan the great ecological revolution fellas, and peak oil is no longer OUR concern. When it comes we'll be on solar forever! Yippee...So cough up now and I'll build your future! 

Who can argue with that? Ten years down the road people will want to buy more n more USD, and so whatever the debt level, it'll only be to fund the world's participation in the greatest innovative nation on earth.

Ain't that a purty dream? Lets  dream on! Can we call this the NEW new deal?

If reality fits that picture...then life is good from 2020 onwards. Fasten seat belts! 

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 07:32 | 2979157 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Yes, but if that scenario is deluded, which I can prove that it is, you are back to drowning in the river of denile.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 10:46 | 2979446 falak pema
falak pema's picture

that is the crux of the matter; no real growth means no way out of this maze. Simple as that. 

That is not a sustainable propostion if we continue not only to import energy but also export manufacture. Done deal, we explode economically around 2015-2017.

More on the enegy perspective : look at this recent chart : Saudi Bakken - Business Insider

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