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The Totally 'Normal' 2% Dump-And-Pump Silver Market

Tyler Durden's picture


Presented without comment - but plenty of incredulity...



Chart: Bloomberg


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Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:10 | 2975996 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

fucked up. die jpm.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:12 | 2976004 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



You should find your motion sickness bag in the pocket of the seat in front of you.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:19 | 2976042 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

I'll see if I can get the guy ahead of me to pull over.  It's in his back seat?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:25 | 2976063 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

SO this is how Citi manages a massive silver short position eh?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:53 | 2976161 Stackers
Stackers's picture

silver market = oxymoron

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:17 | 2976268 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture


"...and you can take THAT, to the bank" - Above the Law


Keep stacking my friends

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:34 | 2976359 HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

BTFD, bitchez!!!!!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:07 | 2976509's picture



SO this is how Citi manages a massive silver short position eh?


Thanks for that. I understood the downbeat but the upswing confused me. Your posts offers a reasonable explanation.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:36 | 2976599 strannick
strannick's picture

Meanwhile the corrupt incompetent CFTC Commisioners look on, conducting their 5 year ''silver investigation'' on COMEX silver trading which Ted Butler calls ''a crime in progress''

Bart Chilton

Jill Sommers

Gary Gensler

Scott Omalia

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 17:36 | 2977629 fourchan
fourchan's picture

and yet my rounds are unimpressed by papers historical dance of death, it shines in the face of fiat. knowingly perhaps.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:21 | 2976043 randocalrissian
randocalrissian's picture

Going to borrow one from a neighboring seat, as my prolapsed stomach occupies my bag.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:35 | 2976099 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

by this time, despite this bs, my face reflects the calm of a hindu cow.

but on the inside i'm knee-capping a few arrogant banksters and then taking a cheese grater to therir shins.   in the movies i'd be a hero, but this ain't the movies - so i'll setttle for this for now..  

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:45 | 2976129 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

I can't see through the rain of vomit coming off the ceiling.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:18 | 2976032 slaughterer
slaughterer's picture

I hope you all know that there is  a Bernanke speech soon.  

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:32 | 2976090 Alpo for Granny
Alpo for Granny's picture

That's it you motherfuckers. Keep that paper price nice and low until this bitch explodes.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:36 | 2976107 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Molly geez granny!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:43 | 2976122 Alpo for Granny
Alpo for Granny's picture

Sorry Sonny, bit too much geritol and catnip this morning.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:34 | 2976096 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

the playbook - 


up in Asia....

Down on the open in London....

Down again on the open at the Crimex in New York...

Down Again at the close in London....

Trade sideways until right before the close of the Crimex...

Down again at the close of the Crimex....

Trade up into the Globex...

Down again on no volume in the Globex....



Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:40 | 2976113 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

Hey the Gov. says "if you see something say something" Heres your chance vast-dom.........

Ps....Exchange Stabilizatuon Fund team,you's are traitors to the world...

...........................Fuck YOU's

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:50 | 2976150 johnnymustardseed
johnnymustardseed's picture

Apparently Blythe did not get washed out to sea by hurricane Sandy. Maybe next time

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:20 | 2976281 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

It will take far more than a hurricane, to wash out that twat.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:10 | 2976518's picture

She rides the waves of volatility blithely. So far.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:15 | 2976536 Wile-E-Coyote
Wile-E-Coyote's picture

Blythe wants a good f***g.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:11 | 2975997 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Looks like the Fiscal Cliff

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:25 | 2976062 mvsjcl
mvsjcl's picture

Galt's Gulch.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 17:38 | 2977637 fourchan
fourchan's picture

lol excellent

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:11 | 2975998 achmachat
achmachat's picture

imagine a move like this two years ago...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:31 | 2976082 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Bingo! Acclimation to, and the normalization of, increasingly bizarre and bipolar behavior is conditioning "We the people".

<No big deal. It does that all the time.>

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:33 | 2976093 achmachat
achmachat's picture

exactly what I meant!

we could have two or three sovereign defaults in the same week and nothing would happen.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:48 | 2976423 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Wait... now you're just talking crazy. As we all know, by definition, sovereign defaults are NOT possible.

Instead, they will be "repackaged" into the latest chapter of "muddle-through" economics.

Meanwhile, the IMF, et al. will be known as super-sovereigns.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:37 | 2976606 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture


Wed, 11/14/2012 - 00:22 | 2978790 Ctrl_P
Ctrl_P's picture

Super-sovereigns. Now you are just being mean. There is no need to bully everyone with wisdom.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:11 | 2976000 Stuart
Stuart's picture

Nothing to see here kiddies move along: Bart Chilton.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:35 | 2976101 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

There is nothing suspicious about entities dumping large amounts of silver on the markets in the space of minutes, thereby ensuring they receive the worst possible price, and under all circumstances, this should not be investigated.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:52 | 2976441 earnulf
earnulf's picture

"dumping large amounts of PAPER silver on the markets"

I'm sure that's what you meant.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:20 | 2976551's picture

The annual showing of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer would be far less endearing if Burl Ives had sung Paper and Paper. It's got no soul.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:52 | 2976160 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

We have a market run by criminals and "regulated" by criminals.  Don't be surprised if you are separated from your money.  

The CFTC silver probe, running for over 4 years now and costing taxpayers millions, will find the silver market beyond reproach

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:11 | 2976003 Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

Cowabunga dude! Surf's up!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:16 | 2976022 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Looks like at least a couple people can't swim.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:12 | 2976009 San Diego Gold Bug
San Diego Gold Bug's picture

You can set you clock by this "silver dump" in the morning.  If you are a trader,  this can be very profitable.  Understand the game that the "Boyz" are playing and profit!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:29 | 2976083 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture


it insane, but i play very nice with the stocks and the various ETFs. i mean, as long as we are going to have manipulation so blatant Ray Charles could see it........

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:13 | 2976012 tocointhephrase
tocointhephrase's picture

Did blythe get sacked?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:54 | 2976164 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

I would not scak that even while wearing a full body condom.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:10 | 2976233 tocointhephrase
tocointhephrase's picture

Ah but if it were laced in Silver?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:13 | 2976013 VonManstein
VonManstein's picture

XAG is a risk amplifier. It does that sometimes. Oh except for last week, when it was a safe haven.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:14 | 2976016 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

that's gonna be expensive, unless someone can just print themselves some more bankroll...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:14 | 2976017 youngman
youngman's picture

Just the big boys picking up the stop losses....

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:15 | 2976018 Newsboy
Newsboy's picture

2 groups of somebodies know something that I don't know.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:15 | 2976019 AL_SWEARENGEN

Have no doubt.  The cocksuckers over at the CFTC are thoroughly and diligently investigating this contemptuous and manipulative rise in the price of Silver.  

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:37 | 2976106 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Investigating? The only thing they investigate is pornhub's downtime (and that time Mrs Jones erroneously bought 2 silver contracts on excessive margin).

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:15 | 2976020 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." Quantam financing...say hello to money.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:16 | 2976023 toady
toady's picture

When I first got out of fiat & into gold and silver I was hyper-sensitive to this stuff, but now I just relax and KNOW I wouldn't sell mine for double the price these morons quote. And when it doubles I'll do the same.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:18 | 2976035 Neethgie
Neethgie's picture

Thats interesting because no one will offer you that price...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:29 | 2976080 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

why are you talking

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:47 | 2976136 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:34 | 2976098 toady
toady's picture

That's the best part. I won't need to sell, so eventually some deal will come.

Or not.

I'll just leave a tresure map for my boys.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:51 | 2976433 rqb1
rqb1's picture

nice, think about your legacy.  you would be remembered as a hero!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:29 | 2976331 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture



Bwah haaa haaa !

Some of us with foresight, are quadruple already, and laughing.

Possession; is 9/10ths of the law.


Keep stacking my friends

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:57 | 2976935 Neethgie
Neethgie's picture

I am not denying that this HAS happened, but saying "i would not sell for double the price these morons offer" is pretty retarded, no one is going to offer double the going rate..

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:16 | 2976024 Odin
Odin's picture

Blythe is PMS'ing again...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:17 | 2976029 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

This happens almost everyday in the gold and silver markets. And at the same time. It is all well documented.

What other commodities or currencies behave this way? Answer: None.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:29 | 2976075 adr
adr's picture

Nat Gas.

Take a look at the daily nat gas charts. There has been a 3% rip around 7AM many mornings in the past few months.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 19:35 | 2977960 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

big whoop, my nat gas ALWAYS rips around 7am..

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:39 | 2976108 ArrestBobRubin
ArrestBobRubin's picture

Bang on about the times.  But usually the move is in the other direction, no?

My only "incredulity" is how rises in paper PM prices are the exception instead of the rule.

Imagine this: paper gold and silver prices have been taken down to the point where they're lower now than they were when Bernank announced open-ended QE-ternity. Make sense???

Now THAT calls for incredulity.

The "markets" have been turned on their head. At this point the only question is how long the ptb will be able to keep them that way.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:11 | 2976735 DirkDiggler11
DirkDiggler11's picture

Hey, dont bitch about it, BOTH gold and silver are on "sale" at incredibly / artificially low prices. The best way to shove this manulipitive bullshit price action right up Jamie D's ass is to take advantage of the sale price JPM et Al are providing and fill your coffers with physical gold and silver during the sale.
When the physical market runs over Jamie and JPM like Hurricane Sandy on a Long Island waterfront house, I will be throwing a silver eagle in his grave and on top of his fucking coffin.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:40 | 2976114 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture let's recap.

The financial institutions manipulate Libor.

The energy sector manipulates gas pricing.

The oil sector is known for being heavily manipulated.

The Fed manipulates the FX, treasury, and bond markets, and props up equities.

But yet, you're a conspiracy theorist if you believe anything untoward is going on in the precious metals markets.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:49 | 2976145 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Oil is not manipulated...

it's being "subsidized" for the price of 523$ billion a year...

not counting the militairy expenses...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:52 | 2976158 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

You need to read this book. The oil markets are definitely manipulated. Referred to as "the asylum", in fact.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:00 | 2976186 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:50 | 2976660 crusty curmudgeon
crusty curmudgeon's picture

Your point is well taken but I feel I must, for the record, point out that long-time and continued manipulation of the PM markets is well documented for anyone who wishes to do a modicum of research.

This actually makes your point even stronger.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:41 | 2976115 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

Wrong, how about most of them. Do you even bother to look at the charts for anything besides silver? Similar thing happened in gold, plat, and palladium at the exact same time.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:45 | 2976127 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

and crude.... Crude was down 4% friday. Now up 2% in the last two days. Silver's a much smaller market but it's traded just the same.  Just because someone dumps a large position does not equal concerted manipulation.  

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 12:35 | 2980098 Au Shucks
Au Shucks's picture

uhhhh, what?  Are you serious or being tongue-in-cheek when you say that?  "WHO" is the "someone" dumping large positions (of what? naked paper silver contracts?) and why are they dumping them and where did they get them in the first place where they can now dump them? 

Once you spend even a minute of intelligent consideration to the above question(s) you can not possibly again state that this act is not a concerted manipulation. 

Very strange comment to make unless you're entirely oblivious, in which case why comment at all?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:18 | 2976031 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

Just don't lose sight of the December contracts; methinks the banksters and COMEX criminals are going to have their nuts smashed in the vise of a short squeeze.  Blythe just doesn't have enough money to pay off what looks to be a large group of investors that may stand for delivery.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:27 | 2976068 Karlus
Karlus's picture

See, I woulda guessed everyone will be liquidating to lock in the lower taxes before they are set to rise in 2013...


Is this not the case?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:48 | 2976142 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

realizing gains...and holding on to losses. 

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:46 | 2976643 toothpicker
toothpicker's picture

Have dipped my cold toes into the TSX market again. At some point these mofo juniors will move rapidly. Well, some of them have already started to move. 

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:18 | 2976036 Crtrvlt
Crtrvlt's picture

jpm construction team.  they screw ,they nut, they bolt


pump and dump suckers

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:18 | 2976037 Orly
Orly's picture

It is a mimic of the EURUSD chart from this morning.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:22 | 2976049 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Longer term, that is completely false.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:27 | 2976066 Orly
Orly's picture

Longer term?  What does that mean?  Same time-frame.  Overlap the chart and find out.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:28 | 2976073 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Make it at least a 10 year cherry picking allowed.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:35 | 2976095 Orly
Orly's picture

Boy, you people are tripping.





Remind me not to get in the way of a gold-bug and his fantasies.

In other words, it is a "risk-on trade" and you guys are about to get monkey-hammered into oblivion.  You heard it here first.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:38 | 2976110 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

The only thing "incredulous" around here is your stupidity when it comes to gold and silver.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:46 | 2976134 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

I have silver in my name and I'll still call YOU the fucking moron. Did you even bother looking at any other chart besides silver? Check out the gold chart, or any of the PM charts and you'll see the similar action at the same time. I know its easier just to yell rabble rabble blythe, rabble rabble manipulation, but the truth is these moves are never just limited to the silver market. 9 times out of ten a move like this is completely matched by moves in multiple other markets. You are just too stupid to look at any chart but the silver chart.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:53 | 2976162 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I was specifically speaking about gold and silver moving down everyday at the same time. Yes, Im looking at that chart (it is a silver thread after all).

Sorry you have comprehension issues. Gold and silver have moved nothing but up against the Euro, USD and every other currency longer term.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:01 | 2976189 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

I have comprehension issues? Read your own posts.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:56 | 2976173 Orly
Orly's picture

Hey, thanks, SilverDosed.  I did try to warn them and I appreciate your trying to open their eyes as well but it seems they have some strange fixation.  Nothing we can do about it, though.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:17 | 2976249 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Warn us? From what? Open our eyes? Seriously?

Thats pretty rich Orly. Especially here on Zero Hedge.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:20 | 2976620 akak
akak's picture

Orly, you DO realize that the euro, and the dollar, and every other fiat currency is constantly depreciating over time, yes?

It is specious to compare the values (I purposely am NOT stating "prices", although that works too) of the precious metals with the exchange rates of continually depreciating fiat currencies over a span of years --- the charts are NOT the same!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:38 | 2976111 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

"In other words, it is a "risk-on trade" and you guys are about to get monkey-hammered into oblivion.  You heard it here first..."


thanks for the sorry, what did Judas recieve in return for ratting out Jesus???? and how long ago was that???

yeah, paper has stood the test of time.....

bye, bye......

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:45 | 2976123 tocointhephrase
tocointhephrase's picture

30 pieces of Silver and you can bet your bottom dollar that they weighed less than 1oz

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:57 | 2976177 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

oh i dont know, maybe u were there to essay the pieces...

it dont matter though cause my pieces r .999...

and by the way, what r the orgins of the term dollar?????? 

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:54 | 2976165 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

What does this have to do with anything? You people are morons. Guess the gold chart for the exact same time doesnt matter because you're too poor to own any.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:42 | 2976626 akak
akak's picture

SilverDosed, your disingenuous "argument" is based on semantics and not on reality.

OK, so BayofPigs should have originally discussed the charts of the precious metals, not just silver, behaving unlike those of any other commodities.  Satisfied now?  (I suspect that you will not be, as your red herring mill requires grist of some sort.)

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:45 | 2976125 fuu
fuu's picture

The 10 year chart looks like the above chart?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:51 | 2976144 Orly
Orly's picture

Okay, boys, go on deluding yourselves.  I mean, you can't even be reasonable about a simple statement about a chart, so I wouldn't expect you to be honest with yourselves about how this is working out.

See yas!

Wouldn't wanna be yas!

Next stop, $1568/oz!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:51 | 2976155 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

They are pretty fucking stupid, its like none of these morons ever bother looking at anything besides the price of silver. Correlation between similar asset classes... thats just crazy talk... just blame it on Blythe. rabble rabble

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:04 | 2976197 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Okay, now you're showing your true colors. Similar asset classes? Pffft.

So there is no manipulation? Is that what you're saying? Crazy talk huh? JPM? COMEX? Scotia Mocatta? HSBC? LBMA? LIEbor? MF Global? etc...



Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:06 | 2976506 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Paper price will collapse as soon as physical takes over.

So you are right.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:05 | 2976204 fuu
fuu's picture

I see you failed to answer the question though which is your wont.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:16 | 2976262 ArrestBobRubin
ArrestBobRubin's picture

Next stop $1568/oz, eh? Keep reading those charts Dear. Garbage in, garbage out. So cute that you don't know the difference.

If you had built any credibility at all, you just flushed it there. And when we should expect this "next stop" to occur oh great knower of all things metal?  Or is it an open-ended call that you can never be called on? C'mon genius, give us a shelf life for 1568 to happen.

And hey Dose... I note that ishares silver trust has also has silver in its name too. Yet would anyone who knows their ass from a hole in the ground trust them either?

Call yourself what you will, but there's no way your comments are trustworthy. Smarmy and foul-moutherd yes, but definitely not trustworthy.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:19 | 2976278 Orly
Orly's picture

The Ides of March, 2013.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:39 | 2976390 ArrestBobRubin
ArrestBobRubin's picture

Riiiiight.... I'll hold my breath.... Not.

Get it together will you woman?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 19:40 | 2977973 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

wes dont take kindlay to yous paper trader folk around heyahr. T & A is for Fridays afters yous get paid!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:11 | 2976231 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture


It is a mimic of the EURUSD chart from this morning.

I'm a gold bug but I totally agree with You Too much complotism, even for a tin foil hat like me.

Maybe this paper from martin armstrong will put some water on hot gold bugs complotist heads.

A more interesting question: in Your opinion, given that every financiaL pundit says europe is toast, when euro gold correlation coefficient will turn from positive to negative? This would really spell doom for euro currency

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:36 | 2976375 Orly
Orly's picture

Now that is the silver dollar question, isn't it?  The giant banks are running games in the EURUSD credit markets and seem to have a very intense fear of the Euro trading below 1.28 to the dollar.  Why that is, I don't know but I think it has something to do with Rep. Alan Grayson's question to Dr. Bernanke way back in the day...

"What happend to the half-trillion dollars,Mr. Chairman?"

Of course, he never got an answer but it may be that the 1.28-level EURUSD is the break even point for the US and Europe in regards to 4X swaps carried out in the beginning of this mess.  If that value is disrupted, it could bring down all risk trades, including AUDUSD, EURUSD, EURJPY and PMs.  Obviously, they would prefer this not to happen.

Many things about it I don't understand but I'll keep trying to figure it out.

Thanks for the link!


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:55 | 2976461 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

tnx for the reply. I agree with You about the TPTB fear on the eurusd level but I think it is in the cards,P

102 103 on usd index imply  eur usd at 0.92, not tomorrow, but between now and the end of 2015. It agree for example with log periodic power low analisys by Ivars, a zh poster

and it agree with pi cycle analisys by Martin Armstrong


"What happend to the half-trillion dollars,Mr. Chairman?"

Bernanke should answer: Eur and usd are siamese twins since then...

What puzzle me is the dynamic of future events. It is not about winning or losing some trades. It's about life or death. For example, how to shelter in europe for an impending euro collapse? It is better buying metals or it is better an offshore usd account with a linked credit card? PM bugs oversimplify things. Silver will shoot to the moon in the near future, but at the moment people offers you 400 eur per kg, not quite a good deal. Being invested in PM is a wise move but perhaps it will not solve your liquidity issues in the event of a financial collapse.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:02 | 2976487 Orly
Orly's picture

It would be okay if there were a market to trade it.  You'll not be able to snap off a chunk of gold to buy a bicycle, like with a Piece-of-Eight.  The entire market and banks are not going to collapse completely.  There will always be a market to trade your currency but it will depend on whether you need more or less of it to survive.

Best thing to do, is save, save, save and make as much as you can and keep it in the bank or at home in a safe.  You'll be okay.  The doom and gloom will not be so horrible as people say here.

Best of luck to you!


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:09 | 2976516 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Save what? Devaluing fiat? 

Some of your comments on gold and silver are borderline delusional.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:18 | 2976546 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

my respect to the woman and to the 4x trader  ;-)

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:28 | 2976577 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Well, quoting ivars the Latvian man who knew nothing about the FED, the COMEX or gold and silver ownership when he came to TFMR wont gain you any credibility here.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:56 | 2976680 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

Dear Sir,

I'm not here in order to gain credibility, cause I haven't any need to sell anything to anyone, I'm only exposing my opinions. You seem to me a little too biased. I only hope You are not trading gold and instead You are buying physical. And before You say me that only morons trade paper gold or sell physical gold, think about Hank Paulson and Mike Maloney, in particular think about the fact they are waaay RICHER than You.

Not to mention, You have not my respect

Finally, I consider myself a goldbug, but I don't have ham on my eyes,

and pls don't be biased... vampire bankers out there use to eat biased herd...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:11 | 2976739 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

I have a profound sense of regret and sadness thinking about the times when giants posted on this blog...

Tyler, please give us CheekyBastard back.. I will give You Bayofpig in change...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:24 | 2976764 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Hey boogey,

I liked Cheeky Bastard a lot, and I believe he became a Tyler. He hammered me plenty of times. Whats your point?


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:24 | 2976753 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I know ivars and I also know his charts have been changed countless times.

I'm not selling anything. Just pointing out the USD is no store of value. 

And BTW, its John Paulson of gold trading fame, not Hank. And its GLD shares he owns, not physical gold. 


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:31 | 2976827 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

And its GLD shares he owns, not physical gold. 

This is the point, he owns GLD (not phisical) and I think he made a lot of bucks with that.

However in the long term I agree with You, Usd is no store of value.

I'm a gold bug but I'm not a conspiracy tin foil Are You able to grasp it?

Try to read this paper You Should Buy Gold 06-14-2012.pdf

and this

and make your arguments against those papers.

Read, learn and then argument; world is full of people that bark to the moon

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:48 | 2976900 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Your first link doesnt work. If it's Richard Russell from "inflate or die" fame I know him well. I subscribed to the Dow Theory Letters for years.

And yes, I am very familiar with Fekete too. Why are you preaching to the choir? I get it.

Denying manipulation? Sorry, it is all part of the bigger picture. Try "grasping" that. 

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 15:30 | 2977048 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

...and pls don't answer quickly, give your brain the time to work...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 17:03 | 2977482 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Very familiar with Martin Armstrong too via Jim Sinclairs site years and years ago.

I don't know who the fuck you're trying to kid here pal. Sure as hell doesn't apply to me.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:17 | 2976545 rqb1
rqb1's picture

boogy, i follow what you are saying, only so many years left for the euro as we know it.  the Germans will walk away, and when they do, it wont be pretty.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:38 | 2976614 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

rqb1 my 2 cents,

I've read Currency wars by Jim Rickards and it seems difficult to me that Germany will shoot in his own feet by starting a northern Euro killing its exports. At this moment I'm thinking about 2008 and about my fears of saver and trader at that time. I remember that I feared the collapse of global big zombie banks, but that didn't happen. Eur and Usd   are zombie currencies but for unknown reasons they stay afloat... In the mean time whealthy nation currencies like the aud are victim of a sudden death syndrome... euraud shots to 1.27 than it resumes its path a strange world strange things happen. Perhaps instead of leaving euro, germany will enjoy an eur devaluation and will try to tighten its relationship with Russia. Cheaper energy and cheaper euro. A northern euro would only mean a "swissification" of Germany.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:20 | 2976782 rqb1
rqb1's picture

you may be correct, i know Germany has enjoyed the benifits of the euro, but trying to explain that to their citizens is a tougher sell.  they are trying though, you have to give it to them.

my point is that sooner or later the Germans will get fed up and walk, and when they do, the US will also.  the curious thing is that i have the same time frame, ~3 more years for the euro as we know it and for a unified europe.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 15:20 | 2977024 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

One developement that I foresee is the start of cash4gold sovereign edition, with Germany trying to acquire CRF (counterparty risk free) assets. Italy is n° 1 target. In these days, from the spoils of PDL (partito delle libertà - Berlusconi) a new political subject is born, it's called moderati rivoluzionari.

I heard their leader, Samon, at news channel, they talk about mobilize gold that thay see idle wealth (i.e. selling italian crown jewels).What a bounch of bastards. Wealth is idle becouse thanks to central bankers mad hatters everything is priced to myth. In a small turist spot with horrible services and transports an humble 3room home is priced something like 46yr average joe salary... and they talk about green shots in RE.

I'm not a tinfoil, but I do believe in this scenario. What puzzle me is the long term effects on the price of gold

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 17:06 | 2977494 rqb1
rqb1's picture

in my opinion, Italy is done,  Berlusconi might have been able to save them, but no longer.  it is a question of when not if for me.  i see Germany holding the whole house of cards together for a few years longer,  again agreeing with your time frame.

as for gold, remember the old game by bankers involves inflation and deflation, everyone maybe looking for the inflation trade while the market is driven the oppisite

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:19 | 2976038 Mr_Wonderful
Mr_Wonderful's picture

Yet, the price of U.S. govt. debt just hit a new 200-year high again.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:19 | 2976040 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

One day soon, the silver tide will come back in and drown the shorts

and manipulators and their big backers, and silver will find it's true

value at a price which is multiples of where it is now.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:56 | 2976174 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

or the economy picks up pace, silver normalizes down to 15 or 20 and you're stuck holding a 30-50% loss for the next 10 years or until the next global meltdown. Thinking of future events as a certainty is dangerous.  

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:17 | 2976269 tocointhephrase
tocointhephrase's picture

I hope you are right (10 yrs til the next meltdown) as there will be more time for a bigger stack. I.e monster box on top of monster box

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:26 | 2976317 n8dawg84
n8dawg84's picture

if the price drops 30-50% then I can buy 30-50% more silver with my dollar. Lookin forward to that drop

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:47 | 2976646 samsara
samsara's picture

"... and you're stuck holding a 30-50% loss for the next 10 years or until the next global meltdown"

LMAO.  Thank you I needed a little pick me up.

So, you think "The party goes on forever and fun never ends"  huh?

10 years....  LOL  THAT was priceless

As martin armstrong would say....

'The value of PMs (Au/Ag)  is a measure of the trust in the Goverment."

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 14:06 | 2976668 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

so if silver drops to $15 and your cost basis is $30, what happens when you need the $ for a medical emergency? answer? you have $15 to pay your medical bill with. good luck. not saying it's going to happen nor are PM's going down forever but I honestly do not believe people here comprehend that they can lose a significant portion of their purchasing power for an extended period of time with no guarantee on timing when it will return. 


look at a chart from the early 80's through the early 2000's. Hope you werent holding gold for that 20 year period.  


and another thing...If you do indeed believe PM's are manipulated by the powers that be, then wow you're really hanging your hat on a future event that you have NO idea when or if it will happen. That event being the PM market gets blown open and the manipulation stops. If that doesnt happen what's to say they dont manipulate it back to $15 and hold it there for years??? or do you know the future?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 15:40 | 2977102 imbrbing
imbrbing's picture

So you think we are coming out of this economic situation intact then. I say when this particular economic situation unfolds it will be so bad there is no way the next economic meltdown (assuming we recover enough to have one) will be compared to this one. This is the mother of all meltdowns and what comes out the end of this one will forever change the way finances work. I havent a clue what that is, but this time IS DIFFERENT. The ammount of the population left when it is over with will make sure of that.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 16:02 | 2977198 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

no, I do not believe this is time is different. 

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 16:09 | 2977227 boogey_bank
boogey_bank's picture

my 2 cents,

silver will never be seen under 26 27, but it will not shoot to the moon, testing the 60 level would be a reasonable PO and a potential 100% gain. I don't think paper silver will burn at this moment so it's a viable investment. Phisical it's wiser in the long term but it has liquidity issues. Gold bugs extremists failure is that they in order to be prepared for the future don't live the present. People still invest in interest bearing certificates becouse it needs cash flow. The most astute investors are people like Maloney that build a cash flow generating machine on a top of a gold stash. I think that  miners that hedge production arent all sold to Gov and Central bankers. They simply try to build a cash flow machine on the top of the mine entry. I don't believe at this moment to silver at 1000, for that try a Vegas jackpot. I believe in a bull market like last decade.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 17:34 | 2977613 peekcrackers
peekcrackers's picture

All paper humpers think they are 1 ticket away from being a millionaire.

illusion is the first of all pleasures!

Most PhYs holders dont just buy for the gains of paper . Just want somthing that is real .



Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:21 | 2976044 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Increasing volatility with a downward bias as infinite paper fights physical demand for dominance.  Things are going according to plan, though they have certainly taken much longer than I had expected.

The next stage of my thesis calls for paper silver to approach zero while physical either decouples or disappears (or both), followed by an industrial panic that drives the price of physical into the stratosphere, at least to parity with gold (possibly as high as 10x parity at a blow-off top), as they scramble to maintain production and cash flow.  

Let's see if it really happens.  I kind of hope not, because I like having liquidity, and this scenario calls for some period of illiquidity.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:37 | 2976102 Newsboy
Newsboy's picture

I think there will be some kind of 9/11 event to shock us into embracing the new austerity soon.

Paper silver will drop, as did gold in 2nd half 2008.

I think that it won't be possible to find physical silver at paper prices.

This kind of local physical decoupling has happened transiently before, as those who buy locally know.

I'm not sure about the nature of the next event, but it should come soon, this winter, and it should be an unexpected shock, which puts a real fright into folks, so they'll follow-the-leader again.

Of course it worries me what-the-hell that could be.

They are rearranging the rats on the deck of the Titanic lately.

Have you noticed?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:08 | 2976221 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

In the period after silver hit $50... When it got down to $26, many coin dealers were unwilling to part with their inventory (even though they had inventory on hand)... I'm referring to coin shops here, not the online houses...

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 12:55 | 2976460 n8dawg84
n8dawg84's picture

If the price crashes in a sell off, finding inventory for sale at the EXACT paper price might be difficult, I agree. I would not say it would be impossible, though. My local dealer said he would have to raise his premiums to offset that kind of drop in price. Although, that may be a poor example since that's only one guy.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 13:36 | 2976605 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Francis: I recall JWR of survivalblog mentioning exactly the same thing many months ago. He was at a gun show (yes, PM dealers set up at gun shows) and none of the PM dealers prices reflected anything close to the current spot price at the time. They were not selling based on spot price.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:21 | 2976045 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Looks like the raids are getting harder to execute. No one wants to ~take profit~ at 32.5.


Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:59 | 2976182 Acet
Acet's picture

It used to be that this kind of dump would depress the price for days at end - now it doesn't last more than an hour.

Either that or this was not an attempt at dumping the price of Silver, it was an attempt at forcing a low for new Silver longs.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:22 | 2976046 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Bernanke, Yellen, Dudley, Evans and the rest of the "Print until you die" crowd have 4 more years to destroy the US dollar's value. 

Everyone knows they will not raise rates because it would kill US government borrowing because of the cost to acquire necessary money.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:21 | 2976047 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Efficient markets.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:22 | 2976050 fuu
fuu's picture

It's just so rediculous.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:23 | 2976055 billwilson
billwilson's picture

It's Tuesday. They have to cover their shorts for the COT report (as of Tues close). Happens pretty regularly.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:24 | 2976056 SIOP
SIOP's picture

Maybe it was Petraeus's lover girl dumping all the silver blingy jewelry he bought her over the years?

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:28 | 2976072 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

The lusty CIA is doing a porkadelic job!

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 11:23 | 2976058 alfred b.
alfred b.'s picture


     Really nice cleavage Mrs Silver!



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