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Gold Tumbles As Same Dedicated Seller Reemerges

Tyler Durden's picture


For the third day in a row, gold and silver are being monkey-hammered at the open of the US equity market day session. Whether this is margin calls mounting or a dedicated 'hedger of client portfolios' is unclear, but fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me, fool me thrice - ask Janet Yellen...



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Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:56 | 2983914 adamas
adamas's picture

fucking twats


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:57 | 2983923 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Still shiny.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:59 | 2983928 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:01 | 2983939 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

sold to me

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:05 | 2983954 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Thanks for the blue light special Ben Shalom!


The boys in China are absolutely going to be giddy!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:07 | 2983975 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

This article is typical of the goldbug and silverbug conspiracy theorists. Whenever the lose money betting on gold futures or crazy doomer gold stocks, they invent a conspiracy theory to explain their consistently shocking trading performance. It is both amusing and sad to see immature goldbug conspiracists obsess over 'manipulation', when in reality they are simply pathetic amateurs with no real economic or financial knowledge or experience.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:08 | 2983978 fuu
fuu's picture

You should just schtick to posting comments that consist entirely of punctuation.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:15 | 2984008 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:39 | 2984130 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

Ancient relic, tradition, bla bla bla...

Gold took the number one position in our perfect monetary system before it was taken away from us by Franklin D Roosevelt in 1934

Fuck you MDB

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:41 | 2984152 imaginalis
imaginalis's picture

Gold not being sold here - just more Ponzi paper printed. CTRL-PPP

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:09 | 2984284 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Is there a "Control Ponzi" key on the keyboard at the Fed?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:30 | 2984359 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Hehehe Shalom Shalom Shalom from Tel Aviv Central command...

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 17:54 | 2985796 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

"Good doing business with you", from China

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 15:07 | 2985070 TomJoad
TomJoad's picture

I nominate this as "post of the month."


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:11 | 2984287 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

MDB sounds exactly like Robot Trader today. Duel sock puppets?

Got to mix it Tyler(s). Haha...

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:09 | 2983982 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Whats even more sad then a goldbug, is a goldbug troll!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:24 | 2984072 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



They should keep their open opulence in the closet.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:12 | 2984293 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

Or those that don't get MDB's humor.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:12 | 2984804 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

If being a dumbshit troll is funny you guys must be high. Anybody with a 3rd grade education can see the intended humor. Intended being the key word.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 15:57 | 2985291 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

We are high.  Well,most of us.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:13 | 2984002 newworldorder
newworldorder's picture

thought you were the best sarcastic comedian on this site MDB, but you are getting way over the top with your daily stich. How about a dose of reality sometime.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:14 | 2984304 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

He's so far from home he lost his identity.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:16 | 2984021 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture


I'd love to do this sort of work too for the Cartel....can you tell me how to get in touch with the guys who pay you to monitor the message boards and post the counter attack and dis the gold/silver bugs? 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:19 | 2984041 caimen garou
caimen garou's picture

about like the  fools trying to hold the dow up on shitty economic news,after that unemployment report the dow should be tanking! million dollar asshole!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:21 | 2984051 deKevelioc
deKevelioc's picture

I've been trying to warn others of Bill Gross' amateurish strategy of wealth preservation, but no one will listen.  He's become a gold chump, too.  Who would have thought that?  And that Jim Rogers, he hasn't made a plug nickel with his gold holdings.  Please, someone tell the Europeans that there are millions of suckers looking to buy some gold, but these central bankers won't sell their 10,000 tons.  Those Germans are sure stupid to insist on an audit of their gold at the NY Fed.  Why bother?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:06 | 2984516 TheCanadianAustrian
TheCanadianAustrian's picture

I generally appreciate your schtick, but you need to be more funny than this.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:58 | 2984735 The Continental
The Continental's picture

Before this economic crisis is over, you will prostrate yourself before gold and beg for forgiveness. So it is written. So it will be done.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 16:14 | 2985391 Catflappo
Catflappo's picture

What part of gold rallying six-fold over the past decade is a "consistently shocking trading performance"?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 23:04 | 2986635 Mareka
Mareka's picture

MDB, Your ability to bait others on this site into responding to your drivel is unmatched.  You are indeed the master-baiter.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:08 | 2983976 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Say, "Thank you, may I have another." and stackem' bitches!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:06 | 2983961 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture

hey let's not look a gift stocks now selling for less than 1 P/B -- AUQ, CGR, GSS, HMY JAG, KBX, KGC, KGJI, LSG, TLR. Silver --- CDE. 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:07 | 2983969 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture
gold stocks with Divy's over 3% --- GFI, GORO< NEM.  GORO is now close to 5% divy. 
Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:45 | 2984174 Titus Flavius C...
Titus Flavius Caesar Vespasianus Augustus's picture

Fret not.


In the Hope Camps, people will gladly trade their gold and silver for a pouch of protein-gel.  You can collect it by the barrelful!


Until the screws find out and send your gold to Fed Island, and turn off your chip.


Then you'll be fucked.


In the shorter term, I'm just going to invest in Twizzlers.   I adore Twizzlers, mate.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 15:58 | 2985298 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

Twizzlers for all! (Not those fucking Redvines, either.)

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:54 | 2984220 monkeyboy
monkeyboy's picture

Who's Janet Yellen and what should I ask her?


Will she answer?!?!?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:46 | 2984966 Bohm Squad
Bohm Squad's picture

Here you go.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:16 | 2984819 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

something about gold, Larry Summers and Gibson's paradox...haven't quite figured it out yet but the smoke is clearing slowly

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:56 | 2983915 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



Buy the dips!

 Oh... and:  GOLD BITCHEZ!!!


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:59 | 2983930 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Actually that's usually the explicit purpose of beating down the price.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:14 | 2984011 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Question out of true ignorance here: Is is actually possible to shank the price with naked shorts or whatever, then actually buy back in a coordinated way quick enough that your buys for a higher volume all go through on the same lowered price? If you could actually do this, it seems like a perpetual motion machine.

My understanding is that if you want to flood back in to buy that you can't do it quick enough to make money. This is why the HFT issue is such a sore point, because it allows one to tinker with the tiny changes, second by second, to parasitically steal a bit of profit on the instantaneous arb you create by putting up all the bids that you don't act on.

Flame away if I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm due for a schooling from some of you guys who day trade.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:34 | 2984098 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

short quickly, cover slowly

you need "time" for bids & offers to re-enter the market and absorb your volume without creating the price volatility

but since my experience is pre-HFT who knows what "time" is these days


edit: that's agnostic as to intention- a FED lackey trying to surpress PMs would behave exactly the same as a whale trying to acquire PMs, the only difference would be the net of short and long trades.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:35 | 2984122 tmosley
tmosley's picture

The secret is to not care about your company or clients, and use their money (OPM) to do the shorting, then buy with your own money, or that of your REAL clients.

Works even better if you have a Fed backstop and/or mandate.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:48 | 2984186 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

BP: yes, it's possible.  Jim Sinclair covered this recently.  If you have two massive entities coordinating buys and sells, you have a price control cartel that profits at any price at the expense of all those other entities participating in the market not in like cartel.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:57 | 2984461 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

That's why I have a hard time with "our media." Same seller? You mean same MANIPULATOR. Why would Government want a low price of anything? Certainly not gold. Certainly not Wall Street. Sure "and all equities plunge to zero" and "ashes ashes, we all fall down." But unless we have a gold standard it's all the same game: manipulation for the purpose of this case the usual inanity. PRICES. What is forgotten in all this is "what if the item no longer exists?" Gold...sure love fest here. But how about 5 gallons of gasoline? Or a taxpayer?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:28 | 2984874 prodigious_idea
prodigious_idea's picture

Hard to imagine the capital and orchestration necessary to manipulate the spread such that your "round trip" transaction is profitable in anything but a very thin market, which isn't likely the case when the price moves by any material amount.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:47 | 2984967 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

The purpose is to short enough to force selling (drop the price) from hfts and stop orders which increase the momentum and then they can buy back in at a price below their own (older) targets.


As an analogy, they initiate the snowball rolling down hill and get out of the way as it gathers mass only to reverse course once they are in the clear (the clear being their dated shorts and the initial push being new naked shorts).

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:35 | 2984120 Marigold
Marigold's picture


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:56 | 2983917 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

If first you don't succeed...

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:57 | 2983921 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Paper casio being run by a desparate house that has become accustom to always winning.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:16 | 2984019 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Accustomed? They've deliberately designed a system where it's mutually assured destruction if Benny the Bailout Boy doesn't make good on their failed bets.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:21 | 2984054 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

These plunges are most likely driven by algos. However, it's a great opportunity to cover shorts for the commercials ahead of the coming leg up.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 15:59 | 2985303 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

"Paper Casio"?    Interesting concept.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:59 | 2983925 BBullionaire
BBullionaire's picture

double post pour me another drink

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:58 | 2983926 BBullionaire
BBullionaire's picture

shit yeah .blew my 1717 up- re entered  and doubled up $1706 (not your missus) Here's for another outside day reversal

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:58 | 2983927 adamas
adamas's picture

just after initial jobless spiked ? WTF just get yer coins , bury them and leave these markets for the fkin robots to trade with each other

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:22 | 2983993 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Seriously - if the daily ups and downs are too much to watch: don't.

Sure, you might miss a small dip to buy if you tune it out, but trust me that you'll know about it if it all really goes to hell.

If you have decided that all the other shit sucks and is make believe and you are interested in gold because it is real, then get some when you can and stop worrying about the theater. After all, if the theater is what helped convince you the system is rigged in the first place, why then allow the same theater to get so antsy?


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:13 | 2984003 toady
toady's picture

I'm starting to see a pattern ;)

The last couple of weeks would have been great decoupling time, so TPTB have put their hammer on display early each day.

Nobody better get any bright ideas, or... BAM!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:32 | 2984101 Jolly.Roger
Jolly.Roger's picture

You are very gukllible and stupid. 


Remind me to sell you some silver. 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:36 | 2984129 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You don't own any silver.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:48 | 2984175 Jolly.Roger
Jolly.Roger's picture

I have only around 40 oz left. 

Been getting rid of of it steadily - after realising that it's all bullshit. The price of silver is going nowhere. There is no scarcity. There is no big smack-down conspiracy.


Silver is the poor man's gold, in that it ensures silverbugs remain poor.  

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:23 | 2984331 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Listen as I play a sad song for Jolly on the world's smallest violin.....

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:28 | 2984342 Jolly.Roger
Jolly.Roger's picture

Not looking for sympathy. I did very okay selling my silver.

Am grateful and lucky to have understood in time - am all-in gold. 

I expect the GSR to go way over 500

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:04 | 2984488's picture

So you did well with silver despite the fact that you say that silver makes people poor. That one time it was different. You're a lucky man.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:04 | 2984497 Jolly.Roger
Jolly.Roger's picture

That's exactly what I'm saying. 

10 out of 10 for reading comprehension. Well done!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:31 | 2984609 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

did VERY okay huh? WTF is that? VERY ok? Sounds like you bought in at $40 and havent been able to sit down since.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:51 | 2984696 Jolly.Roger
Jolly.Roger's picture

Bought shitloads between 19 and 24. Some more in the high 20s. 

Your name is more apt than you realise. 


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:26 | 2984859 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture


in 2011  did OK with silver. I thought it was a monetary metal and that it was indicating weakness in the dollar. Fortunately I panicked early in the May take down and got out ahead. I now see silver is NOT a monetary metal (thank you fofoa) and that central banks only hold gold. All are warned....silver will rise and fall on it's industrial use and on will never again have a place as a store of value that gold will have. It will behave like copper in the long run.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:59 | 2983929 Sweet Chicken
Sweet Chicken's picture

I Love Gold Bitchez! 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:59 | 2983931 holgerdanske
holgerdanske's picture


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 10:59 | 2983932 Stuart
Stuart's picture

Bart Chilton: nothing to see here kiddies, move along.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:12 | 2984001 ziggy59
ziggy59's picture

Fart Chilton... He stinks..

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:19 | 2984039 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

Bart's hairstyle is revealing him as the clown he truely is.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:50 | 2984194 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Is it me or did his most recent interview expose him as some sort of Nordic alien puppet in a square suit?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:32 | 2984368 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

That's funny.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:11 | 2984509's picture

Compelled me to find a graphic.

Here it is:


Is it possible that Lothos is back on the prowl?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 15:36 | 2985205 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Look at him recently.  Looks about fifty years older than the suave yacht-blond playboy in the KWN pics:

(sorry to pump silver doctors and their unapologetic half-assery, and I speak as a stacker)

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 16:22 | 2985417's picture

Maybe he got a little too much sun that day. Daylight can play havoc with the complexion of the undead.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:17 | 2984035 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

The silence is frankly deafening.

In practically all other cases, they at attempt to justify their deliberate incompetence. In this, however, through consistent silence, they expect to sweep it under the rug.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:36 | 2984128 XitSam
XitSam's picture


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:00 | 2983933 _underscore
_underscore's picture

Just noise. Let them trade & feel good for now,

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:00 | 2983935 paddy0761
paddy0761's picture

I quickly rushed out and checked my stash. I still have the same number of ounces, Phew!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:00 | 2983937 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Thank you whoever you are at the Fed.

Just bought more, sure the PBOC did as well.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:51 | 2984438 Boxed Merlot
Boxed Merlot's picture

sure the PBOC did as well...


I only hope Tejas did too.  Lead on.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:01 | 2983940 fuu
fuu's picture

Orly please sell more.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:04 | 2983955 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Orly = Blythe???

Get right out of town!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:09 | 2983986 fuu
fuu's picture

"Next stop $1568."

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:15 | 2984013 fuu
fuu's picture


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:19 | 2984045 Orly
Orly's picture

You're right.  I would like to change my prediction...

$1530/0z. by Valentine's Day.


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:26 | 2984083 fuu
fuu's picture

I just knew you were lurking.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:39 | 2984143 Orly
Orly's picture

You mis-spelled that word.  It is, "l-a-u-g-h-i-n-g."


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:03 | 2984253 fuu
fuu's picture

Well your sense of humor has always been healthy. ;D

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 16:01 | 2985308 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

Which year? 2010?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 16:46 | 2985517 fuu
fuu's picture



Pretty sure at that point in the conversation Orly was just fucking with people. Or not, who really knows anymore.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:02 | 2983942 mvsjcl
mvsjcl's picture


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:02 | 2983943 LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

This is the way Obozo sells gold to his Communist/Marxist/Fascist allies around the world.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:05 | 2983960 semperfi
semperfi's picture

Dead on LoneStar !!  This should be a "Gross" tweet.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:15 | 2984014 mvsjcl
mvsjcl's picture

Hollywood or sand fleas?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:07 | 2983970 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Gordon Brown is running around shaking down COINSTAR machines hoping to get something back...

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:35 | 2984613's picture


This is the way Obozo sells gold to his Communist/Marxist/Fascist allies around the world.


Sounds like a job for Ragnar Danneskjöld. Hey, maybe it's Ragnar inserting tungsten in ingots as a way to stealthily recapture the lost wealth of the productive. It could all be there waiting at the Gulch.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:05 | 2983945 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

They always attack the miners before they attack gold.  Yesterday, miners were down 5%.  Today they are down 2% more.  The junior miners ETF, GDXJ,  is down 9% in 2 days.

Now that elections are over, manipulations are back in full swing.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:03 | 2983946 moraymint
moraymint's picture

Buy gold it is then.  I've been drip-feeding coins in to my safe for the past 5 years ... still looking like the right strategy

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:06 | 2983956 BBullionaire
BBullionaire's picture

The message is clear: dont buy the HUI GDX SLV or any of the miners Buy AAPL buy NFLX buy the SPX and you will be richly rewarded. Yeah we got the memo, now fuck you!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:06 | 2983968 semperfi
semperfi's picture

you forgot JPM & GSAX

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:43 | 2984108 BBullionaire
BBullionaire's picture

fuck them too and the spider (SPDR) bullshit ETF paper monkeys. it's gotta be physical physical baby yeah yeah physical uhh ahh..oooh..yeah

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:06 | 2983958 Freegolder
Freegolder's picture

Will anyone at ZeroHedge comment on this article that appeared yesterday?


The post mentions a Bloomberg article and quotes from that article.

The Bloomberg post was purported to come from an article in the China Securities Journal.


Despite extensive searches, neither the Bloomberg article nor the China Securities article can be located. These seaches were performed within an hour of the post appearing on ZH.

What is the story here?

Why no link, why no articles.

The post has been picked up across the web (of course), but more and more people seem to be asking if the whole thing is fictitious.

Zerohedge, please could you offer an explanation?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:48 | 2984191 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Here's a thought- Mayor Doucheberg's company doesn't make its coin from it's website, it makes it from renting terminals (so an http:// wouldn't even exist).  But since I don't have a deep pocketed bank willing to rent one for me anymore I can't confirm anything...

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:39 | 2984670's picture

Those reports were in the stack which Winston Smith processed yesterday.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:14 | 2984811 Freegolder
Freegolder's picture

Are ZH using WInston's services too?

That would be a sad day.

But no comment from ZH.

Very strange.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:41 | 2984935's picture

The Tylers rarely comment. Not that I'm recommending it, mind you, but they seem more prone to reply to snarky criticism rather than simple inquiries such as yours. At least on the board. Never tried to email them.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:06 | 2983959 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Oil can go down but gold? NEVER! Gold bitchez.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:06 | 2983962 Watauga
Watauga's picture

Selling off before taxes rocket higher and higher in coming years.  Get out in 2012, I suppose, because to take profits in 2013 and beyond WILL RESULT IN much higher taxes on those profits.  It will be true for all asset classes, so there will be a massive sell-off in the next six weeks. 

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:21 | 2984052 toady
toady's picture

That was the Romney-won strategy.

Either some folks are going with it anyway, or they didn't get the news.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:52 | 2984209 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Capital gains are only charged if you hold for 12 months or more.  This means that the capital gains tax averters - i.e. smart people - are on a sub-12 month trough-to-peak sell cycle. 

You shinier apples out there, please correct me if I'm wrong.  this is my lonely read into it.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:02 | 2984248 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Capital Gains are taxed even if the position is only held for miliseconds.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:52 | 2984441 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Thanks for the kick.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:44 | 2984681's picture

The capital gains rate is different for investments held less than a year as opposed to those held for more of year if I recall correctly. I haven't had any capital for a long time and memory fades. There's also something about a wash sale when you buy and sell over a short period, correct?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:03 | 2984750 akak
akak's picture

There is no difference in short-term vs. long-term capital gains taxes when it comes to (ostensible) profits on "collectibles" and the precious metals; the tax rate is the same regardless of the time that collectible is held.

But let me point out, once again, and debunk a widely quoted but incorrect internet "fact": the capital gains tax rate on precious metals profits is NOT automatically or always 28% --- it can be less than that, depending on one's income.  For those of more modest incomes (i.e., who are not already in a tax bracket above the 28% level), the gains on their PMs will merely be taxed at the same rate as their ordinary income

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:09 | 2984794's picture

I did not know that. Helpful as always, akak.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:31 | 2984887 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The IRS is NOT your friend, but they do provide extensive official documentation of their profligate pilfering procedures-


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 14:43 | 2984946's picture

Thanks for the documentation.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 16:18 | 2985405 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

OK, so that's answered.

The tax thing is really crucial to my understanding, even outside of capital gains.

Now let me wrap my head around this:

If the Fed can pull strings in commodities markets as most attest, can they not calculate expected tax returns on profits of x-contracts priced at x-dollars, be they satisfied shorts or what have you (I'll just call it won deals), and thus if the requirement is for greater tax returns, by their calculations, they can avoid the natural and intuitive (or, messy and revealing) precondition of higher prices for higher profits feeding higher returns?

Are the gains that market manipulators make being taxed, is my next question?

Assuming that, the handful of hedgies holding and swinging the ropes in the gigantic game of price double-dutch (and alternately clothes-lining or tripping up would-be dutchers at will) are actually bleeding off non-cartel members i.e. the would-be dutchers, profiting from each and every turn in the market by actually turning the market, and then essentially paying the govt. via returns on their own profits, so, by having such a large concentration, Uncle Sam still gets his cut on just a handful of hedgie profits, one-stop shopping for the profits of an entire market, which is easier than chasing lots of profiting parties, all while real price discovery remains elusive. 

No wonder Chilton looks like he's having the blood drained from him when the market seeks to become a market with many players, when it seems like concentration and position limits are on the table.  As he is on the govt. payroll, he eats our taxes.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 17:00 | 2985589 Ballin D
Ballin D's picture

IIRC it has something to do with ST and LT gains and losses being netted.  I think it only makes a difference with deductions in very limited circumstances. Something along the lines of you get a better deduction on one or the other up to the first couple thousand $ in net losses.  

I could be totally making this up, i kind of threw that class because fuck individual income tax.  Welcome to the 21st century, I use TurboTax to do mine.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:07 | 2983974 youngman
youngman's picture

Gold can not go down if they keep printing....and they the HFT´s computers can take it down..or are they Chinese???????

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:09 | 2983981 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Hedge Funds

Redemption Notices hit 2 weeks ago.

AAPL and GLD some of the HF's largest holdings.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:09 | 2983984 SilverMoneyBags
SilverMoneyBags's picture

You can't smash silver forever. Fundamentally and technically, gold and silver are screaming buys.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:12 | 2984294 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

I would not say that pm's are "buys". What I would say is, that they will retain some inherent value, whenever and whatever that ends up being. Paper assets, on the other hand, are just that paper.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:10 | 2983994 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

Nothing like a massive miss on intial claims and Philly Fed to gets these markets in rally mode.  Nice job today Kevin - go buy yourself a coke.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:13 | 2984004 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

Go buy yourself some coke.


p.s. BTFD!

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:12 | 2984000 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

They don't even pretend anymore.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:14 | 2984010 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Physical shortage coming in at 3, 2, 1... Please please! Let this freakshow burn.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:18 | 2984040 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Looking forward to December Comex Si deliveries.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:16 | 2984012 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

"and in a shocking development, Gold and Silver phony paper price futures were sold off massively on news that mother fuckers are losing their jobs at a alarming rate in the broke ass US of A..."

back to you Bernanke.....




Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:18 | 2984022 slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

Maybe it was that dumb media bitch who said 'gold is backed by nothing'

Maybe she's sleeping with Ben when not writing his bio!


Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:17 | 2984026 q99x2
q99x2's picture

FEDs selling our gold to pay for Israel to kill arab children and pregnant mothers..

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:17 | 2984032 123dobryden
123dobryden's picture

Italians do it better ...

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:26 | 2984082 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

Meh.  It is going up.  Like everything else.  Bankers like to pretend they can outsmart the market.  There hasn't been a trade since they changed the rules in 2009.  There is nothing to outsmart but yourself trying to time the Zimbabwe markets.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:28 | 2984090 BBullionaire
BBullionaire's picture

inverted right shoulder forming on gold if your gonna buy, buy now,  this bullshit is nearly over

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:29 | 2984095 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

So what's the problem? Gold and Silver decline. Buy some. We all know this economic story ends in tears. Buy your protection and bless the guys bringing you cheap protection. We will need it.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:32 | 2984102 fijisailor
fijisailor's picture

Face it ZHers.  If the fed can QE and ZIRP to eternity then gold and silver can be smashed for just as long as that eternity goes on.  It's not even paper.  It's numbers on computer screens.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 12:05 | 2984263 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

Good luck with that theory. I will buy the pm dips and be thankful for them.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 15:08 | 2985074 Bohm Squad
Bohm Squad's picture

*Eternity - ends when physical silver can't be delivered.  

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:32 | 2984103 luckylongshot
luckylongshot's picture

...and the Chinese happily bought more gold and silver at artificially low prices thanks to the Rothschild zionists ....

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:33 | 2984112 billwilson
billwilson's picture

25000 gold contracts dumped on the market = 77 tons. Just regular trading, right?

Where the hell are the regulators?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:38 | 2984137 BBullionaire
BBullionaire's picture

suring the porn channels. it's hot hot hot baby

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:37 | 2984134 alfred b.
alfred b.'s picture


    This movie is so old that it ought to be on the Silver Screen network!



Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:42 | 2984163 edmondantes
edmondantes's picture

why don't we all buy 1 future every time this happens... then it will blow up in their face ... just watch the screen between the NY open and an hour later... maybe ZH could tweet 'gold attack' ... wait for $10-15 takedown to be complete...  :)

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:45 | 2984173 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

Most older ZH posters will tell you if that bothers you, you got a problem.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:52 | 2984210 Coach McGuirk
Coach McGuirk's picture

Seriously, are you just noticing the spikes at the NY open? It's been going on almost every day for months now.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 11:52 | 2984212 FubarNation
FubarNation's picture

I like GW Bush's 'Fool me' quote the best.  Enjoy

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