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Twinkies, Ding Dongs Maker Hostess Liquidates Following Failure To Resolve Labor Union Animosity

Tyler Durden's picture


Hostess Brands, the company better known as the maker of Butternut, Ding Dongs, Dolly Madison, Drake's, Home Pride, Ho Hos, Hostess, Merita, Nature's Pride, and of course Wonder Bread and Twinkies, and which previously survived one multi-year Chapter 11 bankruptcy process, when it operated as Interstate Bakeries, has just made a splash at the NY Southern Bankruptcy court, for the last time, with a liquidation filing. The reason: insurmountable (and unfundable) difference in the firm's collective bargaining agreements and pension obligations, which resulted in a crippling strike that basically shut down the company. In other words, Twinkies may well survive the nuclear apocalypse, but there was one weakest link: the company making them, was unable to survive empowered labor unions who thought they had all the negotiating leverage...  until they led their bankrupt employer right off liquidation cliff. Will attention now turn to that another broke government entity, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp (PBGC), which will have to step in to resuscitate some 18,000 pension plans which suddenly vaporized after labor unions took their "negotiating" freedom a step too far.

From the filing:

Beginning on October 21, 2012, the Debtors began implementing the modifications to the CBAs. On November 7, 2012, the Debtors began to receive strike notices from various local unions affiliated with the BCT. On November 8, 2012, the Debtors received a strike notice from the IUOE. Between November 9 and November 13, 2012, various local unions affiliated with the BCT commenced strikes at 12 of the Debtors' bakeries. At another 12 bakeries, picket lines were set up by striking BCT workers, and certain BCT and other unionized workers at those bakeries chose to honor the picket lines by not reporting for work. As a result, production was significantly disrupted at the 24 bakeries impacted by the Strikes; however, many of the impacted bakeries remained operational to varying degrees due to management filling in for production workers and, in some plants, high numbers of employees crossing picket lines.


Since the strikes (the "Strikes") were commenced, the Debtors have urged striking employees to return to work. Unfortunately, at this time, thousands of the Debtors' employees continue to participate in or honor the Strikes. As a result, a sufficient number of the Debtors' baking facilities have become inoperable, and the Debtors are no longer able to fulfill customer orders or sell product at their retail stores. Because of the material impairment of the Debtors' business operations, the Debtors will soon lose access to the funding necessary to operate their businesses, and the Debtors will have triggered certain remedial provisions of the final DIP Order. As a result, the Debtors are beginning to take steps to wind down their business  operations, including the relief requested in this Motion.

In other words, the labor unions representing 18,000 workers fought the company, and the unions won... A very pyrrhic victory. Sadly, they are all now out of a job as the unionized victory just happened to lead to the terminal winddown of their employer.

As to the future of the iconic brands, fear not: Hostess' numerous brands will be bought in a stalking horse auction by willing private buyers, however completely free and clear of all legacy labor and pension agreements which ultimately led to the company's liquidation.

Now if only Hostess had raised taxes... (because they tried cutting spending, and liquidation followed).

Finally, those 18,500 new initial jobless claims next week? Sandy's fault.

Full winddown motion:



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Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:23 | 2987067 Capitalist
Capitalist's picture

Who is John Galt?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:26 | 2987073 Mae Kadoodie
Mae Kadoodie's picture

Fuck you Yellen, taking away my Twinkies.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:29 | 2987078 gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

This may be the last we see of Janet Calmly 'Splainin.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:35 | 2987096 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Welcome to McDonald's. Here's your Big Mac. With sales tax and your Obamacare surcharge....that will be $50.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:45 | 2987129 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

Sucks for those who crossed the picket lines to work. I bet they a powerful lesson too

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:49 | 2987144 Atlas_shrugging
Atlas_shrugging's picture

Clearly this was a revenue problem.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:56 | 2987160 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

This only the beginning. The workers are rising up against the capitalists trying to sell us expensive goods and offer us low wage jobs. We’re going to SHUT THESE BASTARDS DOWN one by one until we get what we want. The people want RAISES and they don’t care where the money comes from. This is the start of the progressive revolution. Capitalism and entrepreneurship is dead, and the golden age of collective bargaining has begun.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:03 | 2987180 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

How about the age of 'collective shut the fuck up'? Works for me...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:53 | 2987376 Manthong
Manthong's picture

A collectivist union victory song:..

Ding Dong the Company’s Dead!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:03 | 2987419 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Ho ho, ho ho, I've got no job you know...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:25 | 2987509 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

We won..., WE WON..., I think...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:27 | 2987515 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



The good news is we won.


The bad news is......we won.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:39 | 2987562 The Limerick King
The Limerick King's picture



Twinkies have bitten the dust

Hostess is formally bust

No Ho Hos - a shame

So who is to blame?

The union demands were unjust...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:47 | 2987593 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

twinkies, ding dongs, ho-hos

is this a congressional piece?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:01 | 2987654 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

End the Fed, end the Counterfeiting. Buy Precious metals and use them as a means of exchange

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:05 | 2987677 Atlas_shrugging
Atlas_shrugging's picture

This is so simple.  Just raise the price of Twinkies on those who can afford to pay a little more.  Crisis averted.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:21 | 2987751 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Denny's has announced a 5% Obamacare surcharge will be added to your tab starting next year.  Today is support Papa Johns Day.  Friday is a good day for pizza, let them know you support freedom of speech.  In an era of lies, the truth becomes treason.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 13:12 | 2988410 fourchan
fourchan's picture

the creamy filling cliff?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 13:14 | 2988421 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

It has been scientifically demonstrated that a Twinkie has the same qualities as precious metals and we should look to using them as currency.  Everybody knows that a Twinkie from the 1960s is still edible:

As Ron Paul points out:

"Gold satisfies all the properties of money. It is durable, portable and easily divisible into bars and coins that share uniform properties. It is easily recognizable through visual, tactile, chemical and other means. Gold's value and purchasing power are stable over time, as its supply grows slowly and it cannot be created ad infinitum as paper or digital currency can be."

And now that the Twinkie factories are bust, they can't be duplicated ad infinitum like paper money!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:05 | 2987672 redpill
redpill's picture

Sounds like the last time I partied with the Secret Service guys in Columbia.

Great job, union! You really showed them. Striking because the company stopped contribution to your pension? YOUR PENSION? You make Twinkies and you want a fucking pension? Well guess what, you don't get shit now, great fuckin job Ding Dongs.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:13 | 2987694 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

you know, it occured to me that there is an inverse relationship to the number of twinkies you eat and your need for a pension

frosted perks   -  problem solved

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:04 | 2987426 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

If the employees in my company had to receive collective raises, the only ones that would be penalized would be those that are doing a superior job.  They would not receive the raises that are indiciative of their performance and all possible revnues available for raises would be socialized amongst their weaker peers.  I would be pissed if I were one of the top producers.  Too bad the union dues would eat up most of the raise that was now collectively available.  Some people are fucking stupid.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:26 | 2987484 Jay Gould Esq.
Jay Gould Esq.'s picture

Pity, truly. 

Now a chap cannot even get a decent Devil Dog any longer. Yet one more piece of the America that was, -- that we knew as a child -- is now passing into history.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:52 | 2987618 smithcreek
smithcreek's picture

Just like Hostess bought Drakes, someone will buy Hostess and Twinkies will live on.  Devil Dogs?  We'll see if they have staying power.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:14 | 2987692 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture overseas company, or a new corporation created from the old one that makes their product overseas, thereby side-stepping the US and their restrictive labor issues, leaving the 18,500 still out of work.....they did not win

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 12:02 | 2987828 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

The real fireworks will begin when Wisconsin-like showdowns occur across the country - when public 'servants' find out their Cadilac retirement plans will not be (and really are not now) funded and they will have to accept less. There may be safety in numbers to a degree, but not when those(75% who have no pension ) are forced to pay for the cadilac pensions for the (25%) by being increasingly taxed to pay for the priviledged class. It simply will not happen. Plan on working like my mom till 81 at least if you can keep your job. THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES IN LIFE.

BTW some states have laws that prevent the raising of taxes to keep public pension plans solvent.


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:04 | 2987182 Shocker
Shocker's picture

Totally sad to see either way. That is a lot of people now out of work, not including the mom/pop business that supplied them with inventory.

Really wow at this moment

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:15 | 2987228 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

KEY TAKE-HOME INFORMATION in this situation is the time elapsed:  Oct 21 - November 15...

25 DAYS!

For those like me, constantly wondering how long 'it' will take.  We now know that the answer is 'less than a month.'

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:21 | 2987261 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Oh crap, 25 days to lose the filing (eh, I mean fillings, I like them Twinkes, with 25 days shelf life).

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:38 | 2987310 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

The only Twinkies, Ho Ho's, and Ding Dongs that should be going extinct are in DC...and I think Barney Frank fits all three(ok, maybe four with lube...)

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:49 | 2987361 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

So now, as always, that we've reached the point that some money printing jews will buy all the assets for pennies on the worthless dollar, does this mean I'm going to have to eat 'kosher' ho-ho's & circumcized ding dongs?...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:17 | 2987472 Slewburger
Slewburger's picture

Barney Frank will go into terminal depression now that his favorite black dongs are no longer available.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:24 | 2987761 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

oh, you beat me to it. I hear Barney once had three twinkies at once 

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:45 | 2987342 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Somewhere, Mayor Bloomberg is smiling.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:50 | 2987365 L0nG-DoNg-SiLv3R
L0nG-DoNg-SiLv3R's picture

But I thought the only things tht would survive 'it' would be twinkies and roaches?!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:04 | 2987423 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Totally sad to see either way. That is a lot of people now out of work, not including the mom/pop business that supplied them with inventory

This is totally sad in the same way that it's sad that a guy died who put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. The unions and their presumably high-paid negotiators literally threw their members under the bus. They were told by Hostess management exactly what would happen if they continued on their current path, they said "fuck you, give us what we want", and the company liquidated. Way to go, union bosses. Bet your members are glad they've been paying you thousands of dollars in union dues every year.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:10 | 2987201 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yes, and now, just like the former soviet union, the "golden age of starvation and death shall begin" - fixed

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:12 | 2987208 zuuma
zuuma's picture




Builds strong bodies, 12 ways!

The newly-unemployed strikers sure got to eat it today, huh?

Too bad the recipe forgot about the mind thing. Stronger minds might have helped, here.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:13 | 2987211 Aghast in Midlothian
Aghast in Midlothian's picture

Are you a paid troll? Only reason I can see someone doubling down on stupid like this. 

Ah well, when the Progressives really get their head and begin eugenics, this sort of stupidity will be filtered out of the gene pool. 

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:26 | 2987277 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

I believe the consensus view is that M$B is not paid, but is doing this for fun.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:46 | 2987349 jayman21
jayman21's picture

I will second that.  Today was not one of his better works.  Normally, he is spot on with his sarcasm.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:30 | 2987525 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Still..., not a bad performance. He's got to newbies climbing up the walls.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:45 | 2987586 jayman21
jayman21's picture

It never gets old!!!!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:28 | 2987287 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

How'd that work out for you in Cuba, well maybe not Cuba.  How about Russia, well, maybe no ... not Russia.  How about China .... yeah China?  I think that fellow Mao had to "eliminate" a few folks along the way .... they kind of well, got in the way ..... How many was it?   What were the subsequent years like after he did that?  I'm pretty sure that they have moved away from Communism to Capitalism more then the US of A .... you might want to look into that?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:45 | 2987341 Sauk Leader
Sauk Leader's picture

MDB I was shocked to see no reference to the great work by Michelle Obama to get people to eat healthier. This is a great thing, she should attend the closing with a MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner over the factory as is auctions off the equipment.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:17 | 2987739 camaro68ss
camaro68ss's picture

Michelle Obama is taking the last shipment of Ho Ho's to the white house so she can stuff her fat face as shes shaking her finger at you and telling you to eat a saled

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:50 | 2987366 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

A progressive revolution? But 'American' endeavours are all progressive. 'Americanism' has been bringing progress to the whole humanity.

Funny how 'Americans' would like to escape the spot lights.

Dont worry though, it is an 'american' world and as much as you would want some others to star, 'americans' are the only stars. Stop the redistribution of the fame, glory and honours.

All that belong to 'americans' in the making of this current situation shall return to 'americans'.

And that is a damned lot.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:22 | 2987493 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

AnAnonymous isn't nearly as funny as MDB....  -1

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:58 | 2987399 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"and the golden age of poverty and starvation has begun" - fixed  (i.e. see the former soviet union)


This can't be said enough, go long black markets.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:44 | 2987583 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Enough with the trolling, it's too easy on here lately.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:49 | 2987602 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

You collectivist people are out of your mind, "We want raises we dont care where money comes from" lol

How much money could they possibly be making selling twinkies for 75 cents, thats hardly and overpriced product.


To these dumb-ass union workers who sat there and protested themselves out of a job... have fun on vacation.


Go-ahead destroy the few companies still standing!


PS: I vote for a bailout for the twinkie industry, they can use the money to ship jobs to china it will have the added benefit of making twinkes cheaper!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:54 | 2987628 L_Conquistador
L_Conquistador's picture

Here's an idea.  Why don't you reopen Hostess and pay generously?  Pay these high skilled twinkie technicians enough to raise a family, and revive their pensions so they can live well until the day they die for all of their contributions to society.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:13 | 2987718 juangrande
juangrande's picture

It's a cake. It's a candy. It's 2 great tastes in one!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 12:22 | 2988106 Matt
Matt's picture

How about you create a company that makes Twinkies knock-offs, and pay all your employees whatever amount of money they feel they are worth? Then, let me know how it goes.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 12:34 | 2988187 stant
stant's picture

or is it so lazy wouldnt work in a pie factory, old sothern saying

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:49 | 2987605 ejmoosa
ejmoosa's picture

No, this was a profit problem.

That involves both revenues AND expenses-like labor.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:52 | 2987146 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



My grandma is still without power in NY......she told me to send her regards to the union thugs. She thinks you're righteous dudes.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:55 | 2987158 Sofa King
Sofa King's picture

Oh fuck, so much for my Twinkie Inflation Indicator...shit, now I have to modify my trading system.  Anybody have any ideas? Sure as hell can't use the lies spewed by the BLS.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:01 | 2987169 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

Fitting banner at the top of my ZH page: "Chevy's Giving More"

("... to you, taxpayer, from behind, as you grab your ankles, thanks to an illegal bailout")

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:13 | 2987458 babkjl
babkjl's picture

Big Mac index.  They were introduced in 1969 for $0.49 and remain an identical product.  Has all inputs: labour, food, real estate, shipping etc.  

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:39 | 2987561 OpenEyes
OpenEyes's picture

wait, don't Twinkies last forever?  And they'll certainly become more scarce soon.  Gee, I think I've discovered the next great store of value play!  You can't eat gold but you can damn sure eat Twinkies!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:46 | 2987347 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Clearly: it's Bush's fault.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:21 | 2987265 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

Should have clarified.
They learn that working is for suckers in the USSA. Do the right thing (cross the picket line) and still get fucked. So the union people hate you, you still lose your job and all because you thought you could work hard and get ahead.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:17 | 2987471 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

I'm surprised brains are not exploding around here due to the conflicting positions taken.

You hate junk food and fat people and unions, but also hate a company closing it's doors, a company whos unions manufacture junk food.

Truly priceless to read this thread.

(Biden 2016 who's sorry now)

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:36 | 2987545 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

"You hate junk food"....   Not so much, why?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:27 | 2987596 fuu
fuu's picture

He's doing his Bob Ross impression.

"First we'll take our broad brush and paint some Happy Little Exaggerations."

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:51 | 2987614 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Wait ok

I hate fat people-Correct

I hate unions-Correct

I hate Junk-Food - WHAT? 


Junk food for responsible people who have self control is one of gods gifts to mankind.


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 12:43 | 2988234 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Hate fat people: No, I hate having money stolen to pay for anyone's healthcare, particularly those who show their gratefulness by doing just about everything in their power to ensure they will be in need of much healthcare.

Hate junk food: Yes, but it is none of my business what other people eat so long as they and not I are the ones who must face the consequences of their actions.

Hate unions: Yes, they are a barrier to entry into the labor market, a compulsory extortion rackets which cannibalize their own members - while having the gall to claim to be serving their interests. They attempt to create monopolies, price people out of jobs, forbid their workers from working how and when they please, and as demonstrated here, are so fucking petty that they'd rather their members have no job than give in to management's (in this case entirely reasonable) demands. Union members are victims who have been convinced to identify with and support their victimizers, just like middle class Obamney supporters.

Biden 2016 - "What've you got left to lose! (No really, what have you got? We need to know so we can tax the fuck out of it! FORWARD!)"

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:32 | 2987091 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

John was that quiet fellow over on line #7 the Dabney Taggert Ho-Ho line that they haven't been able to fix since Galt went on vacation.  They've had loads of maintenance and management folks over there for weeks, and it seems like the programmable logic controller just won't communicate.  They've replaced the controller and re-booted a dozen times and the darn thing just won't do a thing.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:49 | 2987141 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

"I will destroy the partially-hydrogenated animal-shortening-containing junk food that runs the world"

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:49 | 2987143 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

I think this could also be titled "Name the author - How the Capitalists try to Scare the people?"

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:00 | 2987163 bobnoxy
bobnoxy's picture

Who is John Galt? A character in a book of fiction widely ignored or ridiculed, written by someone who advocated self reliance but wound up taking advantage of social safety nets?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:14 | 2987221 PrintingPress
PrintingPress's picture

You can be opposed to social safety nets but only a moron would not take back at least what they put in. 

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:28 | 2987286 bobnoxy
bobnoxy's picture

So I guess you're only a little opposed to social safety nets? Maybe until you're eligible to cash in? Would you take food stamps and unemployment benefits too if it meant not starving, or is that going too far?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:56 | 2987387 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

I started collecting SS earlier this year. If they had offered me an option to get all the money 'contributed' on my behalf in return for never collecting another cent, I would have jumped at it. Of course, having been taxed on it once, I would have required that the lump sum be tax-free. I figure, in purely nominal terms, that it will take me at least 10 years to break even. How long it will take to recoup the 'contributions' in terms of purchasing power is another question.

Worse, I calculated that taking money out of my IRA will result, after the first several thousand dollars. in a marginal tax rate of around 25%. Not only do I get to pay tax on my tax-deferred IRA withdrawls, but after a certain low threshold the IRS starts counting some of my SS payments as taxable. That's a lot of BS: Taxed when I earn it, taxed when I get it back.

But that's okay, really. Medicare will take care of my healthcare needs until the death panels kick in.


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:43 | 2987576 HobbyFarmer
HobbyFarmer's picture

I hope the younger generation flees from roths/401k's.  Instead of paper promises, I hope they put their money into 1) developing skills, 2) land, 3) pm's, and 4) homes/materials to live independent and off-grid. 

It's been working out for me and I find I sleep way better knowing where my wealth is instead of trusting computers/papers to track it....

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:16 | 2987730 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

that money is taken out of your paycheck pre-tax...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 18:04 | 2989822 nufio
nufio's picture

What is ironic is that a lot of rand supporters are also very much against outsourcing.

I have read her books, and though she has expressed some ideas well. I dont support her ideas around private property and inheritance. 

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:07 | 2987437 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

So are you opposed to government taking money from your pay at gunpoint, so that you can keep it and build your own 'social safety net'? Or do you think a legion of nameless, faceless bureaurats is more capable of building that safety net for you, with money taken by force from you and the rest of your fellow citizens?

Or is that going too far?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:14 | 2987462 bobnoxy
bobnoxy's picture

Well, let's see how the average individualist saver is doing.

As it turns out, not so good. How long do you think that average of $200k will last someone in retirement, and that's only counting those who have any savings at all, which is about half of us.

It's looking like those bureaucrats may have saved millions from abject poverty. At least your Social Security fund didn't get wiped out in the two stock market crashes that wiped out so many ''rugged individualists'' savings.

Odd how some of you look at things that are good for you and object so strenuously. Well trained fools. Maybe you think Wall Street is giving you a better shake than the government? HA!!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:25 | 2987770 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

Hey buddy, atleast with the market someone has the choice to avoid the crash with their savings... You know free choice and free will? With social security, it's forced investment into a ponzi. Which, by the way, was incidently raided by politicians a long time ago. I but don't let facts and logic get in the way of your love for fascism. 

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:55 | 2987915 Overfed
Overfed's picture


I was just a kid in the '80s and I still remember getting 8.3% on a simple savings account. Before all of this New Deal and Great Society bullshit, one could actually collect greater than inflation rate interest virtually risk-free via CDs, MMs, and savings plans. They also knew that they were responsible for their own future, and if they had any brains, put money away.

Government policies have destroyed savers and have made saving virtually impossible. Now most people are going to be dependent on government largess because of government largesse, and you love them for it. Progressives are the stupidest motherfuckers on the planet.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:56 | 2987920 oddball
oddball's picture

The government IS wall street.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 13:07 | 2988374 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

They're wall street, big oil, big ag....  they're essentially the exact opposite of what they claim to be.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 13:59 | 2988662 oddball
oddball's picture

What, limited to the powers granted by the Constitution.?





Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:21 | 2987487 DOT
DOT's picture

Or not having a phone !  Get real dude this is a Right !

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:27 | 2987279 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

Hey Motherfucker I am John Galt. I do not consent to be goverened by the criminals. My labor is mine - the state does not own me.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:58 | 2987403 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

As long as they have more guns than you, the state can act as if they own you with impunity.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:14 | 2987461 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

More guns than 80-100 million ANGRY Americans, each (likely) with more than one gun? Even if they did have numerically higher quantities of guns, do they have the required 80-100 million willing jackboots to tote them?

Still, I get the drift of what you're saying. All I would add is that the state can and WILL act as they do.....until they are faced with physical repercussions for doing so. When that moment arrives is still TBD.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:27 | 2987280 Orly
Orly's picture

Hey, she earned those nets, mister.


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:59 | 2987408 jdelano
jdelano's picture

Widely ignored or ridiculed?  I'd call it one of the most enduring, widely read and discussed novels of the past two hundred years...  There are aspects of Rand's work that are just impossible to marginalize...especially when they are unfolding before your eyes in real time, and that is why your sort is so terrified of her.  Your whole world view is threatened by an idealogy of self-reliance because embracing it would force you to see yourself as the parasitic, teet-clinging permenant child that you are.  There's nothing else to be said about isn't sad news, this is fucking fantastic. Let the shrugging begin and maybe the Obama-nation will begin to wake up...   "Love goes out the window when there's no (wonder) bread on the table...."    

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:15 | 2987464 bobnoxy
bobnoxy's picture

So how's the movie doing? Not so enduring, widely seen or discussed. Weird, isn't it?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:38 | 2987558 jdelano
jdelano's picture

You know, all animosity aside, what exactly is your objection to Rand?  I find it incredibly difficult to understand why anybody would seriously want to be a proponent of byzantine bureaucracy/nanny government and deny the utility of self-interested industriousness.  How can you argue against self-interest as a motivator when it is clearly so effective?  Bet you love your iphone.  You think Apple would exist today and be producing the gadgets that elevate your quality of life if Steve Jobs wasn't a highly-motivated ego-maniac?  You can't help anyone else suceed until you've fought to accomplish it for yourself....that's rational egoism.  Build something, make money, reinvest all or part of it in the is your problem with that?   If you don't want to fight for it and you just want to do the same simple thing every day for a steady paycheck, you can do that too, but why should you be entitled to the same quality of life as the guy/girl who busted ass and risked everything to build a business and employ people like you?    

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:14 | 2987723 UGrev
UGrev's picture

Stupid people don't tend to put themselves into situations that they know will make them realize just how fucking dumb they are.  In other words, when you're eating a shit sammy from the gov't becuase you're either too lazy or too inept to make a meal for yourself, you don't want to be reminded of how bad it stinks when it's all you have to eat. 

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 13:54 | 2988622 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Wierd? No, I would say it is to be expected. Most people have no idea or concept of what points are being made in the book or movie and do not care to. Of those that could understand it, a large percentage resent the very idea that enforced equality and living off of others is ultimately self destructive.

Intelligent people inclined to self reliance are an increasingly diminishing group, the target audience on that is inherently limited.


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:50 | 2987609 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

if it were that widely read we wouldnt be having thia dicussion.....

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:57 | 2987631 jdelano
jdelano's picture

I don't get your point here.  Meaning if people actually read it the country would be enlightened and not moving towards an uncompetitive, socialist disaster of an economy and there'd be no ongoing polemic about Rand since everyone would just think her work as benign fictional narratives that stated the obvious....?  

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:12 | 2987450 Saro
Saro's picture

I don't know why I'm responding to a troll, but here goes: If the man who relieves you of your wallet at gunpoint offers you a small portion of your money back to pay for a cab ride home, you take it, and that doesn't mean being mugged worked out in your favor, or that you should support mugging in general.

(Also, I am against all "social safety nets", but I advocate private citizens taking as much money from the government as possible, at any time, and for any reason. The better to bankrupt the state, IMO, and the government would probably just spend it murdering brown people overseas anyway.)

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 15:42 | 2989161 WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot's picture

 I am against all "social safety nets", but I advocate private citizens taking as much money from the government as possible, at any time, and for any reason. The better to bankrupt the state, IMO, and the government would probably just spend it murdering brown people overseas anyway.

I wish I had more than 1 upvote! Starve the beast and bleed the beast simultaneously. 

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:21 | 2987489 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Oddly enough Sometimes a great Notion, with a similar and more believable story, never gets mentioned.

I assume because the majority here are illiterate, and have had someone smarter explain Rand to them.

(Biden 2016 shreddin)

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:02 | 2987660 In Vino Veritas
In Vino Veritas's picture

What you're no doubt referencing is the half-baked "discovery" that Rand used SS. Whoever wrote that original article was either ignorant or biased - or both.  The following is an excerpt from an article Rand wrote for the June 1966 issue of "The Objectivist" magazine. She wrote this years before she fell ill - so there's no revisionist philosophy at work:

“The same moral principles and considerat­ions apply to the issue of accepting social security, unemployme­nt insurance or other payments of that kind. It is obvious, in such cases, that a man receives his own money which was taken from him by force, directly and specifical­ly, without his consent, against his own choice. Those who advocated such laws are morally guilty, since they assumed the “right” to force employers and unwilling co-workers­. But the victims, who opposed such laws, have a clear right to any refund of their own money—and they would not advance the cause of freedom if they left their money, unclaimed, for the benefit of the welfare-st­ate administra­tion.”

IMO, if you don't use any legal means to minimize your mandatory contributions, and if you don't take the opportunities to claw back what you were forced to contribute, you're cheating no one but yourself.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:09 | 2987696 jdelano
jdelano's picture


age quod agis.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:59 | 2987937 oddball
oddball's picture

Great handle!   

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:01 | 2987172 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture

Lots of John Galts selected a toxic food for extinction. The crime was not doing it sooner.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:59 | 2987404 myptofvu
myptofvu's picture

I'm trying to call my union rep to see if I can get some of my dues money back, but he's not answering the phone!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:29 | 2987523 Monedas
Monedas's picture

Finally .... a relevant thread !    Tylers got gravitas !

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 12:37 | 2988199 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

It is my professional opinion that there is no political or peaceful way to liberate mankind in general and American citizens in particular.  The choice is clear:  submit to collectivism or wage war for your freedom. If you think the political process can successfully return us to our founding principles then I must assume you have been heavily indoctrinated in US public schools.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:26 | 2987069 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Bam Bam killed is that even possible?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:30 | 2987082 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

That's even worse than killing off Big Bird.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:32 | 2987089 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



They handed Bush a shotgun on the set of NPR.....what did they think was going to happen?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:09 | 2987199 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

I thought it was Cheney?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:14 | 2987219 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Naw, Cheney diesn't shoot sport in it.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:22 | 2987267 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

You do realize Big Bird is a guy in a chicken suit right? ;)

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:29 | 2987289 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Huh....never made the connection.


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:34 | 2987094 tickhound
tickhound's picture


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:14 | 2987149 peekcrackers
peekcrackers's picture

I cant say those  GMO chemical tasting cakes were good for much ..not sad to see them go .


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:38 | 2987107 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Meh, big bird and twinkies are part of a balanced diet.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:31 | 2987297 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

Biggest take-away?...



This should have been the fucking model for GM!

Fuck you Bernanke, Geithner and Obama.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:26 | 2987071 New England Patriot
New England Patriot's picture

Offering some price relief on corn and corn sweeteners...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:27 | 2987074 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

This all could have been averted if Hostess brands just raised everyone's real estate taxes.....sad.


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:01 | 2987414 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Or simply passed along an Obamacare surcharge to customers.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:28 | 2987075 KidHorn
KidHorn's picture

Maybe some of the strikers will get lucky and land a job with whoever buys the factories. At a lower wage and reduced benefits.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:33 | 2987090 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

I wouldn't hire'em.


Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:38 | 2987108 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Failure is a powerful lesson.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:46 | 2987130 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

Not to the proletariat.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:20 | 2987746 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The illusory war between capital and labor has been dead for decades, at best.  [the real war was won by capital before it started].

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:45 | 2987127 youngman
youngman's picture

That would be the first question I would have on the application

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:39 | 2987113 pepperspray
pepperspray's picture

Bain to the rescue!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:02 | 2987416 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Good thing Stalin stepped in and stopped them.....that was close.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:58 | 2987162 bigfire
bigfire's picture

Huh?  Whoever buys the brand will be just buying the brand.  The product will be made elsewhere.  Those precious contract and pension that Union won't yield on are gone.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 12:09 | 2987957 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Yep. And they'll open a new state of the art facility in a (probably Southern) right to work state.

In fact, find the right to work state closest to the biggest corn producer in the US, and that is probably where the new bakery will be.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 12:39 | 2988209 Matt
Matt's picture

 You Get Nothing! You LOSE! Good Day Sir! Gene Wilder:

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:22 | 2987268 slyhill
slyhill's picture

Not to mention those pesky pensioners...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:28 | 2987076 drumpoint
drumpoint's picture

Twinkie defense is gone! What now?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:28 | 2987077 JonNadler
JonNadler's picture

you can' eat.....twinkies?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:30 | 2987081 Silverhog
Silverhog's picture

What will Trolls eat now?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:36 | 2987098 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

Ever heard of Cannibalism?  Once they eat the Host(ess), and there is no more, then they have only thmselves to consume.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:30 | 2987083 gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

Important lesson to unions at the bridge to the second Obama term.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:43 | 2987124 three chord sloth
three chord sloth's picture

I want to support private sector unions... I really do. I think it is important to have some kind of way to push money from the C level of corporations out to the workers, but is this the best we can do? Do all of them need to be math illiterate..? Is that some kind of law or something..?

And worse, every time one of these labor actions blow up in the face of the private sector workers, it only increases the odds that the public sector will remain unionized... and that is a systemic poison.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:47 | 2987139 Nikao7
Nikao7's picture

As a Union Industrial Painter I couldn't agree more.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:50 | 2987147 New England Patriot
New England Patriot's picture

I don't have a problem with unions. If people want to bargain collectively, they should be free to do so. But if the company (or local/state/federal government) wants to hire workers for less, they should also be a liberty to do so.


Collective bargaining usually only works in the case of a rare or unique skillset, or through intimidation.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:18 | 2987248 Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

I agree with freedom of association.  If a group of people decide to voluntarily get together for a specific purpose, then they have the liberty to do so.  Go ahead and unionize if you like.  Similarly, the employer has the right to fire any and all for whatever reason he decides or no reason at all.  A respect for liberty and property rights would put a stop to these ridiculous coercive shakedowns.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:49 | 2987354 Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

This is for those who would negatively rate my comment regarding free association:


You have a right to a job. It's called SELF-EMPLOYMENT. If you VOLUNTARILY decide to work for somebody other than yourself and agree to the terms of their employment offer, that's the limit of what you should legally and morally expect from your employer - nothing more, nothing less.  Of course, you are free to attempt to renegotiate at any point in time, and similarly, your employer is free to replace you if he so chooses at any point in time.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:09 | 2987447 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Your attitude is so ninteenth century! The Federal government no longer believes in or defends those kinds of rights. Next thing I know, you'll be suggesting that businesses should be free to decide with whom they will do business. I guess you never read the Executive Order that changed the meaning of the Constitution's Commerce Clause (regulate interstate commerce) to this: "the government can micromanage all commercial and private behavior".

That said, I do agree with you. It's how things should be, not how they are.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:29 | 2987793 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

This is the inevitable conclusion to collective bargaining (and, oddly, the inevitable conclusion to virtually any control over employees...  or citizens for that matter).  It's the same cycle, over and over again.  Just bouncing between the poles like pinballs.

Oppressive medium of control>resentment>activism>collective bargaining>capitulation and mitigation of degree of oppressiveness>emboldenment>additional collective bargaining>crippling of desired return on capital>withdrawal or liquidation of capital>repeat.

This doesn't even account for "natural" causes of business destruction, e.g. resource constraints.  Which, oddly enough, track the same pattern...

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:16 | 2987467 Saro
Saro's picture

The perfect response. 

The position of the government on unions (like so many things) should be that it has no position on unions.  Let the chips fall where they may.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:22 | 2987269 PrintingPress
PrintingPress's picture

The unions don't have anything to worry about.  They are getting paid from other competitors to close down these guys so they can be bought on the cheap.  Then the union bosses will move to another shop.  It's all the suckers that actually do work and rely on hourly wages that get fucked... but you know we all need some "collective bargaining" I'm sure they all collectively came together and said let's blow up our jobs!  Maybe they were afraid the mexicans and illegals were going to take them away from them. 

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:30 | 2987293 Orly
Orly's picture

Exactly!  That'll teach them wetbacks coming in here to do my job for less!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:30 | 2987528 DOT
DOT's picture

A while back my company was preparing to move onto a job when the place blew-up. It was necessary to use dynamite to remove non-union labor from over the border (Wisconsin).Wonder if use of explosives was covered during apprenticeship.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 08:30 | 2987084 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

Jobs?  We don't need no stinkin jobs.  We've got Washington to provide us with spending money.  And ... besides ... everybody knows you don't have to pay your mortgage when you lose your job.

I'd like sprinkles on my cake and ice cream please.


And you want me to pay for this?

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