This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Argentina Ignores US Court Decision, Will Not Pay Elliott And Holdouts
Several weeks ago we summarized the highly entertaining (if largely futile) fight between naval commodore second class Paul Singer of Her Majesty's Elliott Capital Navy, and the defaulted and soon to be re-defaulted state of Argentina. The punchline, much to the chagrin of all those other "sophisticated" bloggers who read so very much into the recent decision of the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals, was the following: "What this really means is that Western courts have decided that Elliott has not been stripped of pre-petition rights despite, or rather in spite of, holding out, and is entitled to collecting up to par recovery. There is one problem: there is absolutely no enforcement mechanism! And therein lies the rub: because how does a court located on Pearl Street in New York order the Argentina State Treasurer located in Buenos Aires to wire a payment on bonds, via intermediary banks, that Argentina effectively has disowned? It can't." Today, Argentina just made it very clear that once again those desperate for page views by analyzing and overanalyzing an utterly meaningless court decision's implications for rogue sovereign debtor will have to try even harder, following Reuters' report confirming precisely what we said would happen - that Argentina would completely ignore the appeals court decision, and not pay holdout, read Elliott, bondholders.
Now comes the realization that in a broke sovereign world, pretty much anything goes, unless enforced by trade (or naval) blockades, and/or, well, war. And as long as the impaired party is simply a uber-prosperous hedge fund, the probability of either happening is negligible. Said party, however, may continue confiscating Argentinian ships at will: hopefully it is capable of creating an efficient clearing market for three-mast frigates.
From Reuters:
Argentina will not pay creditors who own defaulted bonds despite a U.S. federal appeals court ruling in favor of the holdout creditors, the economy minister was quoted as saying in an interview published on Sunday.
The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York last month ruled that Argentina discriminated against bondholders who refused to take part in two debt restructurings as the nation tried to recover from a $100 billion default a decade ago. The decision upheld a ruling by U.S. District Judge Thomas Griesa.
The South American country appealed that ruling, and on Friday told Griesa that sovereign debt repayments made outside the United States are immune to U.S. law and seizures by holdout bondholders.
"Argentina is responsible and will fulfill all commitment it has made to its creditors. ... Our creditors are all those who participated in the two restructuring proposals in 2005 and 2010," economy minister Hernan Lorenzino told newspaper Pagina 12.
"We're going to continue to oppose any alternative that goes beyond that. We're going to continue presenting and defending our position to each legal entity."
The judge is expected to give a speedy response, given that Argentina is due to start making $3.3 billion worth of payments to exchange bondholders starting Dec. 2.
We, for one, can't wait until this tragicomedy hits the ridiculously politicized US Supreme Court... and CNN's reporting on the decision:
"Argentina reiterated to judge Griesa that the decision taken about pari passu (equal treatment) cannot prejudice creditors who entered the debt swaps," Lorenzino was quoted as saying.
"We're going to continue our legal defense in all areas possible, including in the United States' Supreme Court," Lorenzino added.
We conclude this post with what we said last month, as this response from Argentina merely confirms our expectations:
As for the Argentina vs Elliott bare-knuckled match, enjoy it while you can: very soon the Latin American country will likely proceed with yet another round of creeping selective defaults, exchange offers, consent solicitations, and other debt reorganizations, which will make the current free-for-all into a total and epic labyrinth of creditors, interests, bondholder classes, general unsecured claims, and other total confusion which we are confident, will soon lead Elliott to give up in disgust and just walk away.
Those curious what really happens next are urged to take a quick glance at the chart from "Meanwhile in Argentina..."
Finally, we can only hope that other "financial bloggers" who tend to opine on these, and other topics of importance, can at least read the first chapter of "Sovereign defaults for dummies" because endlessly writing on the issue from a presumed position of "expertise" while being wrong constantly and without remorse, does little to augment their credibility.
»
- 14664 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
Fact of the matter is argentina never intended to pay out anyone including elliot suspecting otherwise is an idiot..
breaking news: argentina courts rule that no foreign court can tell their courts how to govern.
no no no....new phrase coming out.... "debt forgiveness". /sarc
Debt forgiveness isnt a new word...
New Word: Consequences
Jubilee.
They're using the term Jubilee.
As in Hourrah! It's gone! Fucking Amazing! Just refill the EBT cards, save Hostess so the Ho Hos keep coming and the masses won't burn down somebody other than their own underwater homes in the city center owned by Fannie, Freddie, FHA, et al (as in peasantry taxpayers who carry the fucking boat for everybody else, as in being a fucking minority with No Special Privileges, Cocksuckers!)
Who is using the term "Jubilee"?
IMF working paper, recent promulgations from Another One of the Endless Fucking Acronym Entities in the EU ("AOEFAEEU") ....
Were discussing default, forgiveness, abrogation, moratoriums and simply inserted a New and Improved Politically Correct Appealing Name of "Jubilee"
All the one and the same walk the debt solution to the symptom of too much debt rather than addressing the unsustainable nature of the financial condition.
(and there, to get the Birkenstock crowd interested, used the term "sustainable')
Oh yeah, those guys. Forgive me, I missunderstood (About the use of the "Jubilee" term, I mean).
We can learn a few things from Argentina.
1) A default is not necessarily the End.
2) When Central Planning doesn’t work, they do it again and they do it bigger.
How very keynesian of them.
nTrepid.com
Sock puppet software.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/14/us/trapwire-antiterrorist-software-lea...
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/08/trapwire-strafor-biz/all/
Abraxas
http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/2007/03/12/story9.html?pag...
Reis is the former president of the U.S. subsidiary of i2, a U.K. maker of software that law enforcement and intelligence agencies use to identify links between suspects. Publicly traded ChoicePoint acquired i2 in January 2005 for $90 million.
Research firm Frost & Sullivan last year estimated sales of that type of software would reach $415 million by 2012
nTrepid
Mark Arehart
mark.arehart@ntrepidcorp.com
www.virtustranslator.com
Ntrepid Corporation
Bot Maker of this Annoyance on the web.
Contact your brokerages and sell all your equity in them
Then get into a short position.
Cubic Corporation - NYSE:CUB
Cubic Corporation is a US Military/Defence contractor, with subsidiaries including Cubic Defense Applications Inc, and Cubic Cyber Solutions, Inc. As revealed in tax filings from 2010, Cubic also wholly owns cyber security firms Abraxas and Ntrepid. The latter provides Persona Management services to the U.S. and unspecified "multinational forces" in conjunction with CENTCOM information operations program Operation Earnest Voice, as provided for in a 2010 contract.
Amongst the Security Services offered by the firm we learn that "Cubic subsidiaries are working individually and in concert to develop a wide range of security solutions" that include: "C4ISR data links for homeland security intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions;" a Cubic Virtual Analysis Center which promises to deliver "superior situational awareness to decision makers in government, industry and nonprofit organizations," human behavior pattern analysis, and other areas lusted after by securocrats.
The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York last month ruled that Argentina discriminated against bondholders who refused to take part in two debt restructurings as the nation tried to recover from a $100 billion default a decade ago. The decision upheld a ruling by U.S. District Judge Thomas Griesa.
Deja vu or Kopy Kat?
see: Greece, General Motors (and probably several others)
total confusion which we are confident, will soon lead Elliott to give up in disgust and just walk away.
Be sure to pull the plug on that Frigate when walking away.
For some reason American courts think they have global jurisdiction. I've noticed this phenomenon many times through the years. I think it's a symptom of a bigger problem with America; bizarre arrogance ingrained in the national psyche - which is pretty pathetic for a failed (soon to be) third world state run by a gang of crooks.
Actually Argentina a signatory to both the Washington Convention and the New York Convention. Why a hedge fund is running to a US court for a ruling which may or may not be enforceable against Argentina is a another matter. International investment protection and dispute resolution are a rather specialized area with private international law.
https://icsid.worldbank.org/ICSID/FrontServlet?requestType=ICSIDDataRH&r...
http://www.uncitral.org/uncitral/en/uncitral_texts/arbitration/NYConvent...
Maradona for president!
you did not get seven arrows for that,,, ! the guys iq is like in the80s,
So how much in derivatives that will never pay out is riding on that paper?
That don't matter at all -- they are fully hedged through other shaky bets.
All the the problems stem from bondholders refusing to take a haircut. More importantly it's time for some Formula 1
Take a drink of that soda with a lime in it, Felix.
Counterparty risk at its finest.
A Latin American country says it all.
Everything is hunky dory till it isn't, and then no one is gonna get paid, but the government keeps right on going...........
Now...
Wonder how that effort by Spain to borrow from Argentina is gonna work out?
You think the US sovereign debt is gonna be paid? The Eurozone's countries sovereign debt is gonna be paid? The UK sovereign debt is gonna be paid? How? I believe party is coming to an end.
The US debts will be paid. The Federal Reserve can buy all the bonds the Treasury issues if needed, and the Treasury can pay off those it owes. Or the Federal Reserve can buy the bonds from those that no longer want them. In effect, the United States can simply print money.
Technically it could because of the Kennedy's silver dollar act 1110 ("Executive Order 1110 gave the US the ability to create its own money backed by silver.")
But the US government doesn't do that. US GVT sticks to the Federal Reserve Act. The Fed isn't a government institution. "The Fed basically works like this: The government granted its power to create money to the Fed banks. They create money, then loan it back to the government charging interest. The government levies income taxes to pay the interest on the debt."
We all know how it works. These guys don't want to be paid. They want to own countries (+ interests) and... In many cases they actually do.
The profits after operational costs of the Federal Reserve are paid back into the next year's Treasury as income. As the Federal Reserve owns more and more of the debt, the amount of money lost as interest to investors declines.
The bigger problem with fiat money created through debt, is that paying down your gross debt is bad, since it reduces the money supply. Which is why western nations, instead of paying down their gross debt, spend any surpluses on acquiring the debts of other countries. That way they have lower net debt, without reducing the amount of money+bonds in the system.
The problems with this include that some countries have to run deficits while others run surpluses, and the system has to grow (more GDP) to keep gross debt-to-GDP levels under control.
Just discount the judgement to the professional money lenders put out of work by WS loansharks. They'll get the money, Elliot won't be responsible for how it gets done, and the Argentine people won't have to suffer for the stupidity of their ruling class.
This is a far reaching case. This deals with the ability of governments to "declare bankruptcy", even though there is no international bankruptcy court.
Tyler is going too far in his conclusion that Argentina can just refuse to pay and that constitutes what we might call successful default. It does not. Argentine assets outside Argentina will always be vulnerable to court confiscation to enforce court decree.
Argentina can indeed try to hold assets only within its borders, but the consequences can amplify -- like perhaps confiscating any prepayment of office space lease for trade missions. If they make a prepayment, the property owner will just be told to find another customer and the money will be grabbed by the court and awarded to the plaintiff (bond holder).
This largely is as it must be. You cannot allow countries to borrow money and then "declare bankruptcy" by defaulting on all payments, without the creditor having the ability to split up sovereign assets. That would not be bankruptcy. That would be theft.
Payment not received upon contractual due date is an event of default, period, end of conversation.
Anything after that is a cure, remedy, workout, solution, refinancing, whatever... but it's post no payee the coupon holder, Default.
Well, we get into definitions. Default has very specific swap triggering ramification. Bankruptcy derives from default. Governments have started watering that down as of February of this year in Greece.
The point is default is not "successful" default. It is not adjudicated bankruptcy. Refusing to pay doesn't mean the debt is expunged.
Ah, well then that's a whole different kettle of rotten fish...
How it applies to swaps, etc., associated contracts.
Used to be way back in the good olde days, default for swaps, etc., was held to be same condition as indenture of reference debt obligations. Made it easy, clean and neat. One for all and all for one.
As time passed, volume of outstanding notional grew (and thus somebody's P"or"L) ISDA et al took over the designation responsibility and as we all know, a default is not a default unless the default interested parties adjudging the event of default decide that the default has been realized as separate from any other contractual event of default, by default, that being who gets or pays.
Example.... AIG swaps... paid out in full without auction, main beneficiary being Goldman's Snatch... and guess who just happens to have representation and indirectly great influence upon which ISDA committee....
Oh, come on, venture a guess.
Shy?
Goldman?
Great guess!!!!!!!!!!!
Yorp.
For anything other than an event of default, there might or might not be an event of default, profit related thereto depending upon the eye of the beholder.
Geez.... you'd think it was a rigged deal....
Greece in Feb was precisely this.
Bottom line: Countries may not be permitted to unilaterally declare bankruptcy with creditors having no recourse. The result of that would kill people.
You borrow the money. You pay it back. It's not a rocket science thing. You borrow too much money to pay back, you lose your toys.
That might be only fair if what they borrowed had some intrinsic value and was not fiat created out of thin air, which I have been told is the case with debt. Did they indeed borrow something with intrinsic value? Or did they borrow paper or computer digits that didn't exist until it was borrowed, or was it leveraged nonexistant fiat that was lent to them.
It was precisely what you know it was, and they can pay it back in the same form, on time, as they agreed.
In fairy farts and leprechaun gold.
One word, BULLSHIT.
I'm tired of explaining it to you over and over.
You lend money to those who can't pay you back, you lose your money......and they get to keep their toys. It's happened that way in many sovereign defaults before, it will happen this way many times again.
Paul Slinger went and bought that shit paper for pennies to the dollar thinking he is going to uleash his army of lawyers and he would be paid at par. Argentina just told him to go fuck himself and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.
Tyler is also delusional and ignorant of Argentina's economy if he thinks they are about to default again.
i like your post until the end. Argentina will default before year end.
Too linear way of thinking. Doesn't apply to reality.
You need some better bullshit to baffle them with.
dood what part of the theft did you not understand, "You cannot allow countries......" well they did, i got 32% back 5 years later....
If they don´t pay they´ll lose their B rating. Maybe they´ll get a D for default. Not nice.
Great story line downsteam: Some really rich asshole buys that 3-masted frigate, goes sailing on the bounding main, and gets intercepted on the high seas and boarded by...
The Argentine Navy.
Who arrest the 'owners' and return all to Argentina, to the huzzahs of the crowds...
I want 10% of the movie rights, unless Segal is involved, in which case - 20%.
Much too simple a premise. The proper scenario is the Argentine Navy attempts to seize the ship and the court orders confiscation of the Argentine Navy to satisfy creditors.
The police ask for US Navy help in doing so.
We like our historical and traditional boats but we don't eat glass anymore. Elliot can keep it, as far as I'm concerned. But you know? I think the Fragata is gonna be back soon under the International Law (as relative as it is). Immagine a judge ruling over some US Navy boat.
Two questions: Who are the idiots who've been lending money to Argentina for the last ten years, and how can I get them to lend me money?
The debt mechanism. You should read about it. About the "idiots" they're the same who have been lending money to the Eurozone countries. They own the Federal Reserve as well, so they're the same who have been lending money to the US government.
(They won't lend you any money unless you have something they want).
Elliott Capital Navy
I get it! :groan:
One can only hazard a guess to which "sophisticated blogger(s)" this piece alludes. lulz
Paul Singer should pilot that very vessel from his cayman island monetary love nest right on down to Argentina and pick up the check personally. I'm sure he would receive a warm south american welcome. [/sarc.]
Of course if poor little me sued argentina i'm sure the scumbag uk and usa courts would afford me the same protection and collection privilidges they extend to a billionaire hedge fund maggot. [/sarc. again]
Collection services, tax shelters, all free. Sweet deal. Suck it Singer you swine.
It is truly amazing how history does repeat/rhyme/who cares what it's called.
Lesser developed/emerging market nations (however those names even apply anymore for that matter) are notorious for serial defaults.
As in perpetually repetitive events from the same nations, over and over again.
And whose currencies are endemically weak.
Put those two situations together and one really has to wonder why people would "invest" in bonds of such entities....
Seriously.
Why the fuck bother.
less greater fools.. but you only need one to cash a profit
This reminds me of a line from Martin Scorsese's "Mean Streets" --- "We don't pay fucking mooks". Elliot the mooks. Seems to fit.
Yeah. Please, don't.
The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York
===
Are we not all trembling at this moment in fear?
jb
Coming soon to a pension fund near you. Bitchez...
Yo Rocky...Why didn't you break that guy's thumbs like I told you?
Globalism Gone WILD
Sovereignty Bitches.
well..."if the past is prologue": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy
so of course, yes "there is an enforcement mechanism." if the President would rather see the States of Illinois, New York, New Jersey and Connecticut go bankrupt...he can do that too. "They won't be calling it the Carrier Obama" if he goes that route however. (the one next in line is the Aircraft Carrier Ford i believe. As in PRESIDENT Ford...not that the cars or the trucks are all that bad of course. I own two of them. Ford didn't need 100's of billions in America's time of need either. GM and Chrysler are "just in time for a massive tax increase" as well! And when resource prices INCLUDING GOLD are getting MONKEY HAMMERED no less! I hope for the country's sake GM and Chrysler are run as well as Ford as a consequence.) Ah, yes. "Resource prices will soar once the World War breaks out" play. Here's one of the greatest airplanes ever built...one that decimated Nazi airpower "to nothing": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito "the wooden wonder" they called it. "it was a wonder" all right. easily the best aircraft built for that war. even after the Germans invented the jet engine they still had no answer for her. singlehandedly obliterated the German U-boat fleet...and provided air domination for the Allies upon their landing in Normandy. and "since it barely ever rains in France" probably kept the Germans from getting any bad ideas when it came to Paris. I think you will hear much of "missile power" in the coming days and weeks folks. Turkey has moved up their ground to ground launchers to the border of Syria. I expect Egypt and (a nuclear powered) Iran to do much the same. i'm not expecting a full on "nuclear shooting gallery"...but clearly "hat tip to missile command." I expect "deep thrusts" into the Sinai, the Golan and the Beirut....after which comes "the drone wars." you can hide a lot in a desert...and hiding will be much of what the "war after the war" will be. let us pray that this does not become the first chemical weapons war since Iran/Iraq. We shall see. But if the call ups are any indication "this thing is not designed to be an incursion." And yes..."the Fed is monetizing Israeli debt in support." still not good enough to keep the (hyper)inflation down tho. for that "they will need victories on the battlefield." i would not underestimate them. The war aim is the same for all (Arab, Israeli, Islamic, Christian) folks: DAMASCUS. "visions of the Americans taking Baghdad" abounds in all their heads and Syria's conquest...and her defense...will not be denied. I still think China has made a diplomatic blunder "of biblical proportions" by supporting Assad "to the last." Insofar as "the Americans" are concerned i'm long "Airship Command." The only US ground forces will be in Benghazi and Salonika...and i expect that number to be significant (125,000...each)...unless of course there are "setbacks."
And so which side is the Carrier wannabe Obama* gonna support?
His, theirs or the others?
(*USS Mooch?)
Hey, WTF, he already siad that he wanted us to use less oil....
Here is a fantastic article, which I believe could provide some benefit if you read it:
http://www.indiana.edu/~wts/pamphlets/paragraphs.shtml
Sounds like the vessel is actually part of the Argentine navy. Imagine how the US would react if one of its destroyers was impounded in a foreign nation at the request of a private citizen.
I don't expect that Argentina will act against Ghana but if I were Mr. Singer I would not be answering any knocks on my front door.
Argentina won't act against Ghana. The vassel IS part of the Argentine Navy.
Let the Queen eat pooh. That last Bond movie had a sick plot too. Oedipus and Hamlet were much better. English filth Argentina says screw you. Heathens!
I'm laughing my ass of ----- is that LMAO or something. Fuck the stupid asshole courts & stupid asshole hfs.
When they say "Argentina owes its creditors" what do they mean by "Argentina?" The government? The people? The indigenous people? The Argentine Central Bank? The politicians? The people who voted for thos politicians?
Until the lenders can verify what "Argentina" is they should not loan them any more money.
Where do you ZHers get that Argentina is getting loans?
Fuck , Christina is years ahead of Bernanke, why borrow when you can print?
Judge Thomas "The Palm" Griesa
I believe that is the ex-Kriegsmarine training vessel "Leo Schlageter". There were three German Navy sailing ships captured at the end of WW2 . The "Gorch Fock" went to USSR, and the "Horst Wessel" became the USCG ship "Eagle". You can still see the Nazi eagle hanging from the bow of the "Eagle", although they have worked hard over the years to grind off the swastika.
Actually, I may be wrong. The "Albert Leo Schlageter" went to Portugal. This is probably one of several similar ships built by the Astilleros Celaya S.A. shipyard in Bilbao
Fuck the bloodsucking bondholders!
Sheeeeit. If I had the spare coin I would buy that vessel in a heartbeat.
This is where Blackwater er Xe, er Academi freelancers are useful.
If they can't sail, grab some ex-SBS personell who can.
It's a billion dollar industry now ~ come on, Gibson was right about everything out, start getting the merc side actualised!
[p.s. Forum bods! Strike-through isn't working!]
I think they write their name in wingdings now.
This is only one shoe. They still need to get the ship out of port and back home. That is where we'll see what is real and what is not.
I said it once. Bears repeating:
"The idea that Argentina [or 'the defaulted and soon to be re-defaulted state of Argentina'] will "default again in what the market now deems is inevitable to occur in the next few weeks" is preposterous. Shows (at best) an absolute ignorance of Argentina's true economic and financial situation. In fact, the whole frigate (cum griesa) thing is just a media coup timed up to prevent the Argentine example from spreading (to Greece, Spain, France, et al)".
Now, we just have to wait "a few weeks" ... and see.
Oh, of course I should have started this post with "IMHO" as all we have here are opinions. Charts ... went to hell long time ago, no?
Tyler why do you have to make a fool of yourself when it comes to Argentina?
Yes Argentina will face a primary deficit by the end of the year for the first time in a decade... but with a national debt at 30% of GDP there is still much leeway before an eventual default.
What Argentina needs is a new generation of political leaders.
i agree, zh usually gets it wrong on Argentina.
That pretty ship is actually a hole in the water you pour money into.
What do you expect from a country that fines their economists over $100,000 each for releasing reports detailing the real inflation rate?
Hint : It's been 30%+ for a couple of years now, Weimar here we come!
like you get true inflation reports in the UsA?
Wow. Thanks. Needed that laugh :D
I really don't understand how all of the geniuses commenting on here can simply think they don't owe the money or it's the lenders fault..... The debt was purchased so the country would have a chance at progress instead of hitting a brick wall. They agree to pay 93% of the current debt but not 70% of this debt. Buying votes is what got her the big job and saying screw the investors and spending is what has, along with slow and no payment on their other issues, gotten the country where it is today. Just like with America, it's not going to matter that Obama screwed everything up to the tune of 10 trillion and we can't pay, we are still liable for the debt and will still have to pay it. It would have been foolish to think you would get an Argentinian court to rule in favor of the lenders, point proven now that the President of the country has said they wont pay, hence the lender picks possible litigation courts and the borrower agrees to that venue and to abide by that courts ruling. We hold them to the standard of a Nation not an immoral corrupt government or bunk corporate merger. The same way we will be regarded if that time comes for the USA. You mentioned our current state of business....these loans are funded by American money and we can't stand to lose another penny. All goods or gold regained by the courts for bond purchasers will be worth far more than their value in hundred dollar bills in 2 more years. Everyone is trying to prepare for what may come. Today we can still pay our debt but taking and redistributing this cash to a government that hasn't had a budget in 4 years, is plagued with this mentality that "taking the riches'" extra will create for them some perfect plentiful society, and a feeling of knowing whats right for a country when millions can't manage to live within their own financial means.....is very foolish. Along with that thought is the feeling that it's okay, especially on regards to a sovereign nation, to just say FU no matter who caused the debt our lent the money. We hold these courts because millions of Americans do still hold to the Constitution and what it stands for. Many of these men and women are official government representatives who, along with the belief that right is right, believe that if we set aside the law or common morality, that it will one day set us aside. Do you propose noone holds them responsible to pay at all? That 70% of the money loaned just be lost? Why not. Ask of their debt so like the President has said there"it puts us in a much better position to pay back loans we are now taking out" thats crap!!! Do you propose that we simply default on our debt and say "get it how you live" to the many who have given us the ten Trillion plus the 6 Trillion Obama signed our names to so far? We had a bump in the road coming when Obama took over the Office and now, not even 4 years later, increasing that debt over 60%. With millions of Americans pushing an agenda against the working Americans who, while fighting tooth and nail, are now watching their own meager retirements plunging towards the shitter. Shall we just say screw the foreigner and save ourselves? WTF are you people even thinking!