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Guest Post: Army, Navy Suicides At Record High

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Mike Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

We are now averaging more than one suicide per day for active duty military.  This is a topic I have covered before, most recently in my post Anti-Suicide Nasal Spray Coming to Keep Troops From Killing Themselves.  This is an absolute national disgrace.

From USA Today:

With six weeks left in the year, the Army and Navy are already reporting record numbers of suicides, with the Air Force and Marine Corps close to doing the same, making 2012 the worst year for military suicides since careful tracking began in 2001.


The deaths are now occurring at a rate faster than one per day.


When Army suicides among those on active duty and demobilized status are combined, the number exceeds the 207 soldiers who have died so far this year in Afghanistan, a difference further skewed because some of those combat zone deaths were also suicides.

We are living in a sick society that is getting sicker and sicker each day.  We must turn this around and the only way to do so is to get the facts to people and shake them out of their apathy.

Full article here.


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Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:21 | 2999539 Pooper Popper
Pooper Popper's picture

Everything I fought for was a LIE!

Your not getting my sons!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:26 | 2999557 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

When I stood on the flightline at Griffis for the first time and looked across the barbwire at the Tactical Nukes on the B52 alert pad I realized this was all wrong.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:34 | 2999582 optimator
optimator's picture

And all I could think of was all the wasted JP-4.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:48 | 2999604 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Mandatory military enlistment for the first born of every congressman or senator during the entire term of office with no age restrictions would be a great start.

Active combat duty only with no nasal spray.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:49 | 2999637 macholatte
macholatte's picture




People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:57 | 2999658 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Which people?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:02 | 2999675 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

The people sleeping peacefully in their beds, duh!

So your from a family of cowards and idiots too.

Nice combo. Please stop breeding.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:07 | 2999691 Michaelwiseguy
Michaelwiseguy's picture

We need to take over the Lying by Omission Mainstream Media and tell the American People the truth about what is really going on. We have to kill the Liars if necessary.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:19 | 2999742 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Better idea...

Tell the people the truth as we see it and DON'T kill the liars.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:56 | 2999882 saturn
saturn's picture

Suicides alone are sad. Suicide bombers would be much more efficient and heroic!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:20 | 2999944 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Lets hope the military eliminates the NWA in the WH. 

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:46 | 2999978 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

Soldiers fight and die willingly in the belief of true cause. In the belief of no cause, or worse, lie, Soldiers do not fight willingly and many die at their own hand...usually slowly and painfully over the years.

The problem here is that Soldiers occupy the Battlefield, Politicians occupy the Political sphere...a role reversal would eliminate much of the world's evil.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 19:58 | 3000381's picture

America has been committing suicide for a long time. These men are more blood gushing from the wound.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:26 | 3000448 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

Guy I knew came back from the bloodshed and shot himself in the head in the field besides my house.

I wish he would have shot a Banker instead.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:24 | 3001145 herewego...
herewego...'s picture

I wonder what the sucide rate is in the Israeli army?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:21 | 2999752 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

Amerika doesn't hate liars... they hate bad liars.

"I didn't inhale."

  Which is strange coming from a consumate liar like Bill Clinton.  I've thought for a long time that he was actually telling the truth because it was such a bad lie.  He was the guy who accepted the joint to look cool, but he always had an angle for higher political life and understood (he's not stupid) consequences.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:23 | 2999949 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Clinton raped women I think that makes him a sociopath but I am not a phyc major.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:00 | 3000388's picture



  I've thought for a long time that he was actually telling the truth because it was such a bad lie.  He was the guy who accepted the joint to look cool, but he always had an angle for higher political life and understood (he's not stupid) consequences.


My impression as well.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:45 | 3000721 The Heart
The Heart's picture

And china sits back and laughs....maurice strong grins.

America's greatest enemy is the main stream media and the zionist war machine that owns them.

Watch this revealing movie.

It is too bad that it takes a North Korean communist slat to get this truth to people so they with what intelligence they have left can watch this revealing and riveting movie...for free!




Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:09 | 2999701 Transformer
Transformer's picture

Which people?  Why....  bankers and high level beurocrats, of course.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:35 | 3000689 Larry Dallas
Larry Dallas's picture

“Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.”
? Henry Kissinger

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 18:14 | 3000109 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

What happened to that old adage, that the idea of war was not to sacrifice yourself for your country but to get the other side to sacrifice themselves?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:34 | 2999585 optimator
optimator's picture

And all I could think of was all the wasted JP-4.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:38 | 2999596 Rubicon
Rubicon's picture

Never, ever join the forces!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:48 | 2999634 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

RIP all those who couldn't carry on. :(

"You lie on your deathbed now,
But what did you bring to the table?
Brought us only holy sin;
Utter trust is a deadly thing"

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:53 | 2999646 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

I am proud to say I come from a long line of (long lived) cowards.

When my grandfather was asked in WW1 to fight for the Fatherland he simply replied that his father didn't own any land. His lack of skill in marksmanship proved to be more dangerous than the Germans. He was released on medical discharge for having flat feet.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:28 | 2999961 economics9698
economics9698's picture

The military was a exercise in the fact that white males are not equal to other males and females.  Affirmative action made my experience in the military about on par with cleaning a shit house out ever hour on the hour.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:03 | 2999680 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Never, ever join the forces!

Because living under the rule of our nation's enemies is sooo cooool!

Fucking moron.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:09 | 2999703 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

dear internet tough guy- when al queda is mounting a D-Day scale attack on our shores give me a call-until then STICK YOUR $500mil F22 FIGHTER UP YOUR ASS SIDEWAYS

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:18 | 2999735 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

otto the dumbfuck, the devastation of war in your home far exceeds $550 mil. Hell, Sandy's cost for devastation is over $50 billion, a hundred times the cost you quote.

Please go and get a brain, steal or borrow one so that you wont be such a drag on the people around you who probably do what they can to avoid your stupid ass.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:24 | 2999761 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Fighting hurricanes with F-22's...

Now there's a novel idea. You shore are smart... and yur mouth is soooo purdy!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:27 | 2999780 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

You are more stupid than I thought. The comment about Sandy was to compare to the cost of war which is far higher.

I wasnt suggesting anyone fight hurricanes with f22s you piece of shit inbred cretin.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:33 | 2999798 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

My ex-girlfriends have called me far worse Mr. Pussypants!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:35 | 2999811 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Bullshit. You cant be anything other than 100% gay butt catching limp-wristic bitch.

You never had a girlfriend and the guys that bend you over dont call you even a friend, I am sure.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:39 | 2999832 akak
akak's picture


What an erudite rebuttal.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:01 | 2999891 Michaelwiseguy
Michaelwiseguy's picture

With the money we spent and wasted on those two stupid undeclared wars, over $1 trillion, we could have built a carbon copy of Manhattan in New Jersey.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:38 | 3000002 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"we could have built a carbon copy of Manhattan in New Jersey."

Well then I, for one, am glad we wasted the money instead.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:53 | 3000051 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

You can spot the real cowards from a mile away; they bang the drums of war the loudest......from the sidelines!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:06 | 2999909 Frederic Bastiat
Frederic Bastiat's picture

Jim you've listened too much to the fear mongering talking points that keep our military industrial complex going.  We've been making ever better hammers (F-35, Drones,  etc. etc.) but we are becoming increasingly desperate for nails.  We are currently housing thousands of people on the most advanced ships in the world, so that super high-tech aircraft can drop million dollar laser guided bombs on groups of peasant farmers with AK's.  The odds that one is these peasant farmers could bring the 'devestation of war' to 'your home' is so microscopically small.  Yet you, and others like you, becuase of an out-sized fear, are willing to kill them.  It's not a very smart or ethical way to run things.   

Sat, 11/24/2012 - 15:23 | 3008605 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Hellfire miossiles only run about $50k, so it isnt million dollar missils, Fred. And it isnt the farmers anyone is worried about so much as it is the militants who have the capability to do more attacks like the one they did on 9/11.

And no one wants to kill those farmers either unless they take up arms against the US.

It is up to them. All Hussein had to do was show evidence of his WMD destruction and stop firing missils at a our jets and Iraq would not have been invaded. Yeah, I know a lot of self-declared geniuses think that it is 'obvious' we invaded Iraq for oil, but no, we have taken very little of it. Most of it goes to the far estern countries like China and Japan.

All the Taliban had to do was hand over OBL, but they refused to even let us send in SpecOps to get the bastard. So they got hammered fopr protecting a mass murderer who declared war on the US. Where we fucked up was staying in those fucking h ell holes to try and modernize those countries.

Fuck them. Both together are not worth one drop of American blood, IMO.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:07 | 2999910 Frederic Bastiat
Frederic Bastiat's picture


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:11 | 2999708 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

You believe a bunch of bearded primitives in the desert are going to RULE THE USA?

And you have the cojones to call someone ELSE a fucking moron?

Wowee zowee, bro!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:21 | 2999751 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

You believe a bunch of bearded primitives in the desert are going to rule the USA?

Yeah and the Roman urban slugs said the same thing about the Germans and the Huns, except for them the Germans were a bunch of bearded primitives who lived in dank cold forrests.

People as stupid as you are and as ignorant of history are what is killing our democracy, fuckface.


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:35 | 2999814 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

As far as I'm concerned, if the USA is so pathetically weak a nation that a few thousand religious zealots 6,000 miles away are going to take over, we *deserve* it.

Programming more mindless drones like you to go die in a foreign land would have its benefits, though.

Are you doing your part to fight for democracy?

Sat, 11/24/2012 - 15:27 | 3008616 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

It isnt just the US. The assymetric strategy of these Jihadists is very effective playing to their strengths and our weaknesses.

Winning conflicts today is not about having the most troops, tanks, planes, and artillery.

It is about having more hard-core MF's that are willing to go to the ends of the Earth to fight for their cause.

The US has had three centuries of freedom and never really had to worry about protecting the national infrustructure from enemy attack, and so ours is exposed in so many places it is almost impossible to defend. But going after the bastards that do the terrorism is what we are good at and have been doing well enough.


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:24 | 2999951 DMac
DMac's picture

Democracy is the lowest form of government. It is mob rule and stands diametrically opposed to the rule of law; a constitutional republic.

I hope it suffers a swift death globally. 

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:50 | 3000039 CharlesFilson
CharlesFilson's picture


I understand where you are coming from, and I honor the service of every man and woman who have ever fought for our country. 

However, there comes a point where the war isn't worth winning. Reagan defeated the Soviet union by getting them to overextend themselves. The USA could win all the battles, but lose the war economically. There is also the price we pay in human capital. Those who serve honorably to defend the rest of us, pay the price with their lives and with their mental stability. (PTSD rates are very high, and PTSD is devastating to suffers and their families.)

If the USA were ever invaded, you can count on me to pick up a rifle and act as a meat shield for the real soldiers, but until then, my voice is for not spending the precious blood of servicemen to try to fight an endless war to bring our brand of peace to a world that doesn't want it.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:11 | 2999711 Transformer
Transformer's picture

Uhhhh.... your're already living under the rule of our nation's enemies.  That's the part you don't get.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:22 | 2999758 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

You are a paranoid fuck.

Our leaders may be corrupt and a bit on the dumb ass side of the coin, but at least they are OUR dumbfuck crooks!


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:23 | 2999950 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I was willing cut you some slack, but you've managed to write several posts without connecting any dots whatsoever.

Time to wake up Jim.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:40 | 3000008 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

He has dis-connected the dots.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:23 | 2999755 akak
akak's picture

JimBowie, every fearmongering chickenhawk warmonger like you should be on the front lines of your beloved imperial US military --- you and every one of your kids both, if you believe that the imperialistic, interventionistic current US foreign policy of endless war is that important. 

Put up or shut up.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:23 | 2999765 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Shit-for-brains, I did five years in the infantry, and there is no requirement for people to be in the military before you can speak in the military's defense, you godam fucking crypto-communist fascist bastard.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:25 | 2999774 akak
akak's picture

You statist fearmongers are SO entertaining!

Now throw some more schoolyard names at me --- it makes you that much more of a man, you know.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:33 | 2999785 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Why should I throw names?

I was simply being descriptive in regard to your pathetic existance as a cowardly piece of shit.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:35 | 2999812 akak
akak's picture

Your spelling is on par with your intellectual development.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:59 | 2999856 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

you didn't use enough cuss words and don't you remember, like war, the more weapons you use, the more "right" you are. Your position reminds me a little bit of ex-prosecutors who become defense attorneys and still refuse to believe that authority can very well: lie, be a hypocrite and commit crimes.  

The Suicidal Recruiter

I had a client about five years ago who was a former soldier and now a recruiter for our current escapades. As things wore on, parents and family would come back to him after their son was killed. As this escalated and other information leaked out, he became suicidal and tried to kill himself. Unfortunately, he tried to burn himself and they charged him with attempted arson. After a long battle and some decent psychological input, I got the prosecutor to reduce to a misdemeanor but they wanted substantial jail. I was lucky enough to get an intelligent judge who was also a veteran (now retired). I had already given a lot of thought to the effect on the solider and his family but not enough to people in his position. Like my father who was in just after Korea, a hell of a lot has changed - both how we think of the world and how it thinks of us.        

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:25 | 2999767 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

JimBowie, that is an entirely different matter from volunteering to go and fight the banks' and the profiteers wars for gain and conquest, as you very well know.  

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:32 | 2999801 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Maybe, maybe not, since a lot of 'bankers wars' are as much to head off larger conflicts that might come if things get out of hand.

In such cases itis difficult to argue how many lives were saved in the long run.

I dont think Afghanistan was a bankers war, nor Iraq, though I favored the former and not the latter.

But we surely have had bankers wars before where we invaded countries to protect the interests of Wall Street, that is most certainly true.

And that is fucked up.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:42 | 2999844 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

And now who profits from the poppy harvest?  Who profits from the oil?  

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:08 | 2999913 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Who, pray tell, received the bulk of the $3 trillion+ that the US has spent in Afghanistan and Iraq and the rest of the MENA over the last 11 years? Who funded it?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:26 | 2999773 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

we already live under the bankers rule


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:37 | 2999822 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture


But the point is we can change that, if we just organize and represent our own interests in the system instead of bitching and whining about it with no follow up.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:53 | 3000049 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

We need a Navy, air defense, nukes (deterrent and punative offense) and the unorganized militia.  Anything else is unneeded and bullshit war expenses. 

We do not NEED to be in fucking Afghanistan or the Middle East.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:31 | 2999741 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

And start educating your kids early, teach them about how they try to manipulate the young.  If you don't, they are helpless against the goals of the government education system.  And haven't you seen those ads when you have gone to the movies?  They glorify the role of the military and show them doing the occasional good deed they use as a sop for their conscience.  There are TV shows and TV news about our "heros."  We didn't raise our kids for cannon fodder. They are too precious to throw away for reasons most don't even understand and are to the benefit of the few and to the detriment of the many.  Start thinking about what you are going to do when they start rounding them up.  And if you think you are safe because you are past the age where you have to worry about such things, or are married and have children, or some minor disability that will keep you out in case of a draft, think again.  My father was drafted in the Korean War though he was married with a pregnant wife.  He was in boot camp with a kid who had a club foot. When I was a teenager our next door neighbor got called up during the Vietnam War.  He was in his mid 30s, married, with 5 children and a 6th on the way.  He had to appeal to our senator to get out of it.  

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:24 | 2999952 Metalredneck
Metalredneck's picture

I did the most subversive act of all:  Raised two kids to think for themselve, and question everything.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:31 | 2999575 SMG
SMG's picture

Soldiers - don't give yourselves to brutes, men who despise you and enslave you - who regiment your lives, tell you what to do, what to think and what to feel, who drill you, diet you, treat you as cattle, as cannon fodder.

Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men, machine men, with machine minds and machine hearts. You are not machines. You are not cattle. You are men. You have the love of humanity in your hearts. You don't hate - only the unloved hate. Only the unloved and the unnatural. Soldiers - don't fight for slavery, fight for liberty.

In the seventeenth chapter of Saint Luke it is written " the kingdom of God is within man " - not one man, nor a group of men - but in all men - in you, the people.

-Charlie Chaplin

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:56 | 2999657 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

And thus the Western democracies were TOTALLY unprepared for the Nazi War Machine.

Fuck you Charlie Chaplin and all those who truck in your delusions; Chaplin should have stuck to making movies and not pretending to know a damned thing about military preparedness.

The strong survive while the weak die off.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:04 | 2999674 SMG
SMG's picture

There are no democracies/republics left.  All we have are banker Oligarchies, soon to be one big banker Oligarchy, that is what those with any love still in their hearts need to turn against.  Liberty is Love, and that is definetly worth being strong and fighting for.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:05 | 2999689 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

That is bullshit. We still have a democratic Republic here in the US and we are entirely capable of throwing the criminals out and cleaning the damned government up.

It is a duty prior generations did from time to time, but this generation is so far too weak, corrupt itself and distracted.

That is not the fault of the Republic, but of the people, who most often get the kind of government that they deserve.

And it doesnt matter how corrupt the government is anyway when we are talking about keeping the Huns from burning our homes to the ground, doofus.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:13 | 2999719 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

What business is it of ours if the Europeans want to continue butchering one another as they have for centuries? Why didn't we go into the African countries when they were slaughtering millions? Oh-we did the one time-and got our asses kicked-kind of like any "war" we have fought since WWII.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:14 | 2999723 Transformer
Transformer's picture

"That is bullshit. We still have a democratic Republic here in the US and we are entirely capable of throwing the criminals out and cleaning the damned government up."


The elective process is fixed.  The system doesn't work.  Other wise R Paul would have been the Republican candidate as he started of winning the first 2 out of 3 primaries.  Bankers run the country.   You are a fool.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:15 | 2999725 SMG
SMG's picture

We still have a democratic Republic here in the US and we are entirely capable of throwing the criminals out and cleaning the damned government up.

I think the last few "elections" have proven that not true so far.

And it doesnt matter how corrupt the government is anyway when we are talking about keeping the Huns from burning our homes to the ground, doofus.

Fine,  then let's bring all the troops home and have them guard our homes and borders.  Somehow I think the suicide rate would be much lower in that case.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:38 | 2999825 Jreb
Jreb's picture

What our friend fails to realize is that most that dwell here on ZH are not anti military or anti war or even anti government. Many are primarily anti imperialists. We need to return to the pricniples of free markets, individual libnerty and non interventionist foreign policy. If we could do this the rest of the world would be a lot less concerned about us and far less likely to want to blow buildings and people up in the name of their God or deceased loved ones.

The only just war is the one fought in self defense of one's property and life. If you have to get on a boat to go somewhere to kill someone and they can't return the favor then you are probably engaged in a war that you shouldn't be.

We have transformed ourselves in the west from a beacon of freedom and hope for the rest of the world to an imperialist juggernaught intent on bringing "democracy" through brute force to every backwater nation and people on the planet. Such a policy has crippled us economically and now socially. As ZH'ers often say "This will not end well".

Bring our troops home, clean up up our political and finacial system and start over.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:41 | 2999841 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

I agree mostly, but some wars are justified though not in strict terms 'self defense'.

A retributive strike after being sneak attacked is justified, as is fighting a war to prevent a much larger one, but these should be rare.

Good response.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:31 | 2999962 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

People like you are exactly why I avoid the DC area.


I bet you have a DOD job and have never made a dollar that didn't come from the government.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 19:02 | 3000064 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

How can it be known that a war is fought to prevent a much larger war?  Is it dowsed or do they skry the future in a crystal ball?  Perhaps it is seen in the Terot cards or read in the guts of chickens?  Did an angel of God appear unto them, or maybe God spoke unto them directly? Really, what methodology is used to discern the future in this fashion? Such justifications are spoon fed to the masses as many are not equipt with the necessary thought processes to spy out the logical error. Have you no discernment?  

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:21 | 2999946 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Democracy by force?  Ha!  This is a good old fashioned resource snatch, no matter how they try to dress it up.   Bringing them the benefits of modern central banking and debt enslavement is probably just a happy consequence.   

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:44 | 2999847 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

The last election proved that it will be harder than some thought, but first we must break the duopoly the two main parties have right now and offer America a real choice.

The second thing would be to have better suppervision and ID checking at the ballot box.

But I dont think anything will happen until the next MAJOR depression hits, which should be within the next few years.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 18:09 | 3000097 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

few years?  Try months.   

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 19:18 | 3000293 11b40
11b40's picture

JimBowie.....As a military brat, whose old man was a vet of WW2, Korea, and VN, and who grew up during the 50's & 60's on military bases with 3 tours in Europe, I have been watching this conversation with interest.  I, too, am a proud veteran and did my time in VN with the 101st ABN (1/506th), so feel free to call me a coward, moron, or whatever.  You are simply showing us all your shortcomings.

At first, I thought you were just a neo-con warmonger, but now your political agenda has exposed you as a Fox News Kool-aid chugger.  This bit about the ballot box is pure asinine distraction. We have virtually zero problems with the people who cast their votes. 

What we do have is a huge problem with politicians who rig the elections in advance with gerrymandered districts that give them lifetime tenure. 

What we do have is a huge problem with electronic voting machines that can be programmed to count in anyway the programer wants them to. 

What we do have is a huge problem with elected officials who try to keep people from voting by hook or crook.

"Jreb" did a good job in his post above.  Let me suggest that you read it again....and cut down on the profane language.  It makes you no friends here, and undercuts whatever worthy points you might actually make.

Thanks you for your service.  Welcome home.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:59 | 3000570 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Great post 11b40. Well thought out and to the point. I was reading this exchange myself and wondering what kind of guy we had on our hands here. Sounded like the same old Neocon BS. Maybe I was in the military too long ago, but I never remember all this insane warmongering BS. It was simply do your duty and get on with it. I was not impressed by the shrill tone of our infantry veteran. Now after reading your post, I too believe this is a FOX news junkie who is all hyped up the echo chamber of FOX.

Since I try to respect my fellow veterans, I will not call him all kinds of foul names, as if this proves anything. But being drunk on FOX cool aid surely blows a person's mind as his posts prove.

Fuck, I was too old for Iraq, but my son in law fought there in a security unit for convoys. i.e. He and his men cleared the bombs and fought the Sunni fighters when they ambushed convoys. His vehicle was blown up once and hit by an RPG once. He came out okay except for the brain injury from the blasts and the PTSD. He is now discharged on disability. Ask him what fighting in Iraq was all about. He can NOT answer, he has no idea what so many fought and died for. It should be a lesson to all who contemplate service. You may be called upon to fight, kill and die for nothing of particular importance other than some politician's desire to be a "War President". Even Bush is now in hiding over what he did.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:35 | 2999816 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

>>>we are entirely capable of throwing the criminals out and cleaning the damned government up.

Lead the way Jim BlowMie

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:39 | 2999835 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

I wouldnt get in front of you for a million bucks.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:48 | 2999858 Dr.Awkward
Dr.Awkward's picture

Who's the coward now?

Either you're a really big troll or a really big idiot.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:27 | 2999781 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

"And thus the Western democracies were TOTALLY unprepared for the Nazi War Machine." -- JimBowie1958

Learn some fucking real history (the stuff outside primary schooling).  You are living proof that schooling works.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:52 | 3000048 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Seems like we won that one along with a lot of Rooskies.  Quick learners I guess.  But in those days Detroit was humming.  Today not so much.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:19 | 2999744 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

How can you exist as an isolationist in a world containing tens of thousands of ICBMs pointed this way???

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:34 | 2999810 SMG
SMG's picture

Because thousands of our ICBMs are pointed right back the other way.  So unless the other side has a suicide wish, you need not worry.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:37 | 2999824 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

now that's just plain


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:42 | 2999843 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

Suicide bombers predate Drones.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:47 | 2999581 CPL
CPL's picture



Service folks and endless tours.  Poor bastards.  Couldn't begin to imagine.  One tour on the ground is enough for any person. 


If any of them are out here at ZH and trying to figure which way is up, I suggest Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintanance and go get a vision quest under your belt. Use any means to preserve yourself.  Use your training.  Use your family.  Use your community.  You aren't the first ones through a tour and you aren't going to be the last.  There are LOTS of old soldiers, come talk to us first.


The book is in any good used bookstore and public library.  lol

For a legion hall.  Urial pucks, quarts of beer and guys that have fought in WW2.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:06 | 2999694 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

This is because a sepecific clique of neocon bastards have taken over our DoD and State Dept.

Obama was supposed to fix that.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:21 | 3000827 CPL
CPL's picture

Let me clarify something about how it works:

Military takes orders, orders are followed. If in doubt, start at the beginning of this sentence again.  Repeat as necessary over opted contract.


Who is in the military?   Anyone that wants to join.

How do you stay in the military?  See beginning of this post.

What if you don't like the order?  See the sentence above.

What if you do the order and think about what you did?  See the sentence above.

Who gave the order?  Who cares, above your pay grade, see the sentence above.


Trickle up logic.



Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:25 | 2999771 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

+1000 CPL

One of the greatest books ever.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 19:32 | 3000330 11b40
11b40's picture

Amen, CPL.  No wonder the suicide rates are going through the roof.  Until you have lived it, you really cannot imagine the internal anger and rage of waking up wondering if you would see another after day.  Counting down those days to the end of the tour, with the anxiety building as you got shorter and shorter.  One tour was bad enough.  Endless tours that have now stretched out over 10 years would be absolutely maddening.

During my war, most of the grunts were draftees, and eventually, the contempt for the situation took care of itself.  We HAD to get out of VN.  The lack of discipline was about to get out of control, but instead of suicide, our rage and depression went outward.  The officer corp was no longer safe as fraggings became evermore commonplace.  It did not take very long after that conflict for the draft to be replaced by the new mercenary army.  Now, even that is not enough, as so much of our dirty work is being contracted out to "specialists".  If you think this is a good thing, you are wrong.

As the lead article said, this is a sick society we have made for ourselves.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:08 | 3000767 CPL
CPL's picture

Even those in a contracted situation to the esprit de corp still mentally snap like dry tinder without family and community behind them and I understand exactly why they contract out.  Money. 

The salary hasn't changed for 40 years but the price of everything else has.  Dirt bags in Gucci suits that wipe their asses with silk come and offer x6 the salary with similar benefits minus the pension.  To make that happen all that needs to happen is marriage then kids.  Most sign up once their contract is over to escape soul crushing debt.

If there is one thing that is over looked in all these stats is COLA adjustements to basic salaries.  The US forces are some of the deepest in debt on the planet.   I don't think I've been to a base in the last ten years where it's not surrounded by parasites like pay day loans, gold scalpers and credit card hockers.

The stress of combat is one thing, many that come to the Legions here are flat assed broke and digging deeper by the day.  That's what's killing them.  A young man that signs up hoping to provide for themselves is one thing.  One that gets married and expects to live a middle class lifestyle with kids/mortgage/cars.  That adds on to their respective shit piles. 

Sadly most of the options available at a Canadian Legion are for glueing the mind and soul back together, regardless of tour.  We have old soldiers from both sides of the fight of all wars that have similar opinions on what war is good for.  This new thing though.  The financial calamity management part for the organisation is non-existent. 


It is at a point that needs to be mentioned as a side to the general sense of stress.  Most NATO forces will fall apart the first pay cycle that fails and bounces.  Base economies would collapse the same day along with the localized boons that come with them.  These are economic situations that would, can and have in the past collapsed nations.  Russia is a great example.  Took a single paycheck missed and suddenly 4.5 million people spending 27% of a nations GDP turned the USSR into Russia and twenty renewed statehoods.

It's just starting to happen in the UK.  They are coming out with British placement in Canuck bases, I believe there is a similar arrangement in India from articles a few months back in Bloomberg.


Anycase, poor bastards.  They have the shakes from re-entering, their shields are up and up to their eyeballs in debt.  Shitty place to be.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 13:27 | 3002407 11b40
11b40's picture

Thanks for sharing these sober perspectives based on real experiences.

What we have done, and continue to do, to the military is criminal.  It has never been an easy life, especially when families are involved.  Now, it is far worse.

I am not an economist, and have seen the range of opinions between austerity on the one hand, and pedal-to-the-metal Kenseyian deficit blow-out on the other, offered up as solutions to waht ails us.  I don't know the answer, but I do know that we need jobs, we need infrastructure, we need investment in America, and we will need even more jobs as we wind down these wars (if we ever actually do).

Mostly, we need leadership that will put America ahead of party politics........but I am not optimistic.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:09 | 2999702 Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

But spelling and grammar wasn't a lie.  It's "you're".

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:23 | 2999762 I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

Death before more dishonor.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:50 | 2999864 hampsterwheel
hampsterwheel's picture

The last soldiers that died for any kind of fight for freedom fought between 1861- 1865; after that each and every war was fought to expand the empire - the vietnam war being the most onerous, yeah those Vietnamese sure are a threat to the world 40 years later.... what a joke - (and as a disclaimer, Im a USN vet of Gulf War I) already talking my kids out of any service whats so ever - I want to puke when I hear the MSM say so and so died protecting America.....really? He must have been killed then trying to shoot down a CIA operative in Afghanistan loading opium into a C5 bound for northern mexico -

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:27 | 2999956 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.   No reason to fight and no reason to be a god damned guineua pig for their drugs. 


  • Dad, died 2007 of an exotic cancer, govt said it was natural (if it was, it was the 27th case EVER recorded).   Vietnam Vet US Army (Agent Orange) 
  • Me, thought I was sterile for 10+ years, USMC Persian Gulf War I.  (nerve gas antitdote pills) 
  • They are NOT getting my son.  

Fuck the government.  And triple fuck the banksters and their bullshit economic wars. 

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 19:22 | 3000266 stant
stant's picture

1977 right out of high school wanted to join the marines. my dad talked me out of it.  a vet of ww2 and korea. he said if they really need ya they will come and get ya. either way you wont like it. now my son first year colledge. can shoot a bug off a fence post at 300 yards, he wants to go rotc. i told him bad idea fuck them. your to good for that and they just killed a bunch to good for that. and almost no one here deserves the sacrafice. ps still my greatest regret in life i didnt serve love my service men and women you bring me tears of pride and sadness. godspeed

Mon, 12/03/2012 - 06:41 | 3001280 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

The Pooper Popper view gets overwhelming support!

Zero Hedge readers tend to be aware of those LIES!

The first research done by the Father of Sociology, was a study of suicide by Emile Durkheim. Durkheim's seminal monograph, Suicide (1897), a study of suicide rates amongst Catholic and Protestant populations, pioneered modern social research. The main thing that was demonstrated was that there were PATTERNS OF SOCIAL FACTS.

Although individual cases of suicides appeared to be relatively idiosyncratic, the overall frequency, in a large enough population, was remarkably regular. When ALL the different factors were included, then the personal particularities, and triggering incidents, were replaced by a stunning set of patterns of facts, when ALL the conditions were included, in a large enough population. Therefore, although looking at each individual case of suicide would reveal widely different individual events, the overall patterns would be due to the overall set of conditions, that surrounded that total population. Therefore, there can be no doubt that the record breaking levels of suicides in the American military MUST have had some basic common conditions driving that to happen. My opinion, based on no first hand knowledge nor any research, is that the root cause is that the American military is being tragically misused and abused by the increasingly crazy and corrupt political system. Surely, since 2001, the runaway triumph of huge lies has been getting obviously worse and worse.

I have often wondered what it could possibly feel like to be in the armed forces when one woke up to that facts that the Fraud Kings controlled the country, through puppet politicians, and so, everything was tangled up lies, where the objectives that were supposed to be the missions were not the real objectives, but rather, there was an insane hidden agenda, which was amounting to the deliberate destruction of the American democratic republic, by a runaway fascist plutocracy, dominated by an international cartel. The modern American military personnel appear to me to be in predicaments like Smedley Butler, but amplified to astronomical levels. What happens if you begin to perceive that your commander in chief is probably both the biggest foreign and domestic enemy of the constitution of your country? What happens if you intuitively begin to believe that you are being deliberately misused and abused?

I find it impossible to imagine or understand the zig zag lines of awakening through the military, and to what degree those tangled tunnels of deceits go through and through the different ranks. I have zero first hand knowledge of any of those things. However, there is no doubt that anyone in the military who ever begins to do some independent research, and starts to think for themselves, is going to discover the FACT that everything they fought for was a LIE!

The oldest and best developed social science is warfare.

However, that was also the most tangled up with LIES!

Paradigm shifts in militarism are extremely imperative.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 13:32 | 3002423 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:22 | 2999543 john39
john39's picture

bring them home, end the bullshit banker wars.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:30 | 2999569 walküre
walküre's picture

The web of accomplices is much wider and reaches far beyond the parameters of the banking sector.

end the bullshit corporate wars for profit

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:43 | 2999605 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

good luck with that......the bankers will just pay them more to turn their guns on their own citizens.......and they WILL

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:10 | 2999706 Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

And where will they work.  In all the unicorn pooper-scooper jobs King Barry created?



Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:20 | 2999749 Induced Coma
Induced Coma's picture

Hi Ho, Oorah - Hail Captain America and the World Police!




Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:23 | 2999547 ReeferMac
ReeferMac's picture

Thanks for reporting this Tyler. Sad that you won't hear about it on the mainstream media, but at least someone is trying to help spread the word.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:25 | 2999550 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Well Tyler did pull it from USA Today right?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:35 | 2999588 ReeferMac
ReeferMac's picture

LOL, Touché. Sadly, I doubt much of the rest of the news-media will hop on this story. Wonder if the editor's would have allowed it ti surface prior to the election?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:37 | 2999593 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

ReeferMac I am glad you took the joke. It was a wiseass comment on my end. I am sure that was buried on page 87 of the Bangor Maine USA Today issue.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:45 | 2999616 ReeferMac
ReeferMac's picture

Bah, everyone knows nobody reads USA Today..... ;-)

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:47 | 2999625 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:43 | 3000023 Mary Wilbur
Mary Wilbur's picture

WSJ has reported it as has Fox News.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:25 | 2999551 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture


The sins of the Fathers will be visited on the sons...

Unjust weights and measures...

Unjust Wars...

It is only going to deepen the chasms of despair as long as we allow it...


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:24 | 2999552 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

Endless deployments to Hell zones are killing our guys.


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:34 | 2999772 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

In the long test of wills the self righteous fanatics think they have the advantage. They think they will break us by setting up their missle launchers next to their schools and firing them at our schools.

They drag the bodies of our soldiers through the streets and curry advantage by portraying faked deaths of their children for the sensationalist or gullible western media. They are most often the breaker of truces and treaties.

Volunteer or not that kind of evil shall not stand.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:27 | 2999561 RobD
RobD's picture

When I was in the Navy back in the late 80's and was ready to get out I had the opportunity to go to college on my own dime and had an excellent chance of landing a high paying job once I graduated. Today our boys and girls rotating out of military life have little hope of doing what I did. Also there was not a continuous state of war at that time, that had not really started yet. No wonder they are taking an alternate path.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 13:35 | 3002441 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

SORT OF BS - THEY HAVE THE GI BILL THAT WE DID NOT HAVE IN THE 80s.  I was in USMC from 1979 - 1983 and got absolutely nothing out of it.  Paid for my college by WORKING and about $5K in loans.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:27 | 2999564 I am a Man I am...
I am a Man I am Forty's picture

Dying for a bunch of lying scum politicians is not all what it is cracked up to be.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:32 | 2999567 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Mercinaries working for foreign banks why wouldn't they be committing suicide. Not long from now they'll be bombing the US. They should be in colleges or protesting the Government instead of killing people and themselves.

Tell me how many banksters have they thrown into jails. M'fers.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:53 | 2999875 I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

Long ago, I gave up the mantra of "Support the troops, but end the wars."  No more sympathy for them as they are past the point of not being able to realize the error of their ways and who they really serve.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:31 | 2999570 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Cuomo should start by firing every fatass cop with bad aim in NYC and replace them with a Vet.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:32 | 2999578 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

I don't know about that.  Haven't the police departments been militarized enough as it is?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:36 | 2999590 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I hear you. I am hanging my hat on these vets coming home with better sense of reality and the knowledge that they were just being used. Hopefully they use that knowledge to look out more for their fellow man.

I know...I'm nuts.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:39 | 2999597 walküre
walküre's picture

Disgruntled vets and pissed off union workers.

There's your breeding ground for the next American Revolution.

The Soviets had the same issues and their only solution was the collapse of the system. It could have gotten out of hand quickly with alot more blood spilled than already happened.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:46 | 2999621 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Walkure I don't think the collapse of the system is a solution, I think it is just where it all leads to. The only question is, what happens after it collapses.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:47 | 2999628 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Why not train the vets to work American factory jobs for when they return?


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:37 | 2999823 walküre
walküre's picture

You can probably imagine what will happen when this current paradigm finally collapses. Look at India and China for clues. That's where half the world population lives. Our corporate parasites have sold out America for their short term gain. In the process they elevated shitholes to empires. When we collapse here in the US, these newly created empires will emerge on the stage as the new imperialists.

Bringing the troops home, all of them is the best way to survive what is coming. Surrender the expensive and useless outposts in the desert. America should have created a much stronger allegiance with Canada and Mexico for example. Also beyond Mexico into Cental and South America. Instead we're half way around the globe dealing with fundamentalists and goat herders for a speck of desert sand. Why aren't we producing all our gadgets in Mexico? Instead we're supporting the Chinese who are in turn stealing our technologies. And Mexico is left to its own devices drowning in drug warfare.

It is all so senseless and uncoordinated. It never benefits the nation of America. It's benefiting the nationless elite who could give a rats ass if America sinks into the sewer. America is just a tool for their wealth creation and protection.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:04 | 2999900 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

>It is all so senseless and uncoordinated

i.e. the results of a hampered market


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:17 | 2999933 WTFx10
WTFx10's picture

Whos this "We" you speak of?

IT was the fucking MONEY MEN ,THE OWNERS ,THE BANKSTERS, THE ROYALS all the fucks who rule the planet because WE let them. FOLOW the Money.

THEY TELL us one thing and do what they want. Does not matter what happens along the way as long as they get to keep  doing what they work so hard for. Empires fall and rise but the money men always remain in control.


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:52 | 2999645 10mm
10mm's picture

Not so fast with the vet as a cop.Their just as fucked up from their shit tours.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:56 | 2999655 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I won't argue 10mm. I truly feel for the kids who get sucked into this. That statement was more out of empathy than reality

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:08 | 2999687 oddjob
oddjob's picture

so you are saying they are ideal supplicants?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:23 | 2999764 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

i am saying i have never been harrassed or even aggrevated by a vet. I'd rather they have a crack at protecting us.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:47 | 2999853 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

well the vets do have a lot of experience flying drones.  You can feel "protected" with drones overhead.  They are there for your safety.

These vets are killing themselves

because they have a guilty conscience.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 18:11 | 3000101 10mm
10mm's picture

Id rather see a vet get help,get a trade,schooling or whatever and get away from firefights and confrontations on a perpetual scale.When it's over it's over.Let them move on.OK,not all vets but grunts in the shit types need to move on and away.Then theirs the ones who are active law enforcement and serving tours overseas,only to come back and patrol the streets.Not good.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 13:52 | 3002506 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Yeah - let's use the people who have actually shot and kill people to police the streets. 

Nothing could go wrong there.....

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:30 | 2999975 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Personally, I think that prior military service should automatically disqualify one for the job of peace officer. Soldiers need to be soldiers, cops need to be cops, and we have an awful lot of trouble with cops acting like soldiers at war.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 18:14 | 3000114 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Most of the total fucktard cops playing at being soldiers have never actually been IN the military.
I have a lot more respect for a veteran than I do for some bullshit steroid abusing wannabe on the SWAT team.


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:31 | 2999571 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Well, that SHOULD BE THE END of all that nonsense.  When the suicide rate exceeds the casualty rate, it's probably time to try a new tack.

Have we tried outsourcing to Chinese mercenaries yet?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:32 | 2999572 Gimp
Gimp's picture


don't let your kids become cannon fodder,while a banker gets rich...

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:32 | 2999574 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

My neighbor, who came back from Iraq not too long ago, won't talk about his time there other than saying it was a waste on many different levels.  He is grateful to be able to go to school for radiology, but that is about it.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:37 | 2999591 walküre
walküre's picture

Hopefully to study up on the long term effects of depleted Uranium ammo.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:55 | 2999654 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture


Not in your out loud voice.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!