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Hostess Mediation Fails, Liquidation To Proceed; Furious Laid Off Workers Now Turn On Labor Union

Tyler Durden's picture


Last week, when discussing the next steps for the company, and specifically the hope that mediation may resolve the epic animosity between management and workers, we stated that "What makes a mediation improbable is that the antagonism between the feuding sides has certainly hit a level of no return: "Several unions also objected to the company's plans, saying they made "a mockery" of laws protecting collective bargaining agreements in bankruptcy. The Teamsters, which represents 7,900 Hostess workers, said the company's plan would improperly cut the ability of remaining workers to use sick days and vacation." Sure enough, moments ago we learned that mediation has now failed and the liquidation may proceed. And since in America nobody understands that proper sequence of events involved in a bankruptcy liquidation, where the valuable parts always end up being acquired by someone, in this case the Twinkie brand and recipe, let the pointless Ebay bidding wars over twinkies continue. As for what really happens next, if indeed Bimbo is prohibited from acquiring the assets in the Stalking Horse auction due to anti-trust limitations, then the buyer will almost certainly be a "financial", i.e., another PE firm, whose coming means the end of any hopes and dreams of preserving union status at fresh start Hostess, or whatever the new firm will be named.

From the WSJ:

Hostess Brands Inc. said Tuesday night it would proceed with liquidation plans after mediation fails.

Earlier Tuesday, the head of the bakers union whose strike precipitated Hostess liquidation plans didn't attend a last-ditch mediation session and wasn't hopeful about its prospects, he said.

"I'm not too optimistic about this mediation," Frank Hurt, president of the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union, said when reached earlier Tuesday afternoon in Columbus, Ohio. He said he couldn't get to New York, where the session was taking place; instead, he said, the union's secretary-treasurer was attending.


The mediation came at a judge's suggestion after the Twinkie maker said Friday that a week-long strike by the bakers left the company no choice but to seek a bankruptcy judge's approval for liquidation.


The judge, Robert Drain, urged mediation, citing among other things the hope for saving some 18,500 jobs. The company filed for bankruptcy protection for the second time in January.


The judge indicated Monday that if mediation wasn't successful, Hostess could return to court Wednesday to pursue its liquidation plan.


Doug Mansky, a Hostess driver in Detroit and a member of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, was in the process of moving to a cheaper condominium on Tuesday, after his union had agreed to an 8% pay cut that he said would shave $200 a week from his income. After Judge Drain cleared Hostess to impose the same new labor terms on the bakers union, they went on strike.


"I hope things work out. I'm going to be 49 and trying to find a job in a market that's terrible," Mr. Mansky said.

Sadly, the reality of learning just how bad the labor market truly is, all smoke and mirrors of a recovery aside, will now have to be experienced by not only Mr. Manksy but 18,499 of his fellow co-workers, who may have been duped into hoping by their union that by holding out a hardline stance, they would gain something.

They have now lost everything. And not too unexpectedly, the workers are now turning on the Union!

[S]ome Hostess workers in another union awaiting the
mediation results criticized Mr. Hurt, the 20-year president of the
bakers union, who defended his decisions and actions during the
company's bankruptcy process.


Scott Quenneville, a Hostess truck driver represented by the Teamsters, said he feels his colleagues were misled by Mr. Hurt into believing that a buyer would swoop in for the company. Mr. Hurt on Sunday said he thought there was a good chance a buyer would emerge who would give union members their jobs back.


"Frank misled a lot of people. He was not going to settle for anything less than closing the company down, because they didn't want that 8% pay cut," said Mr. Quenneville. "If you don't want the job, leave the job. Why ruin 18,000 jobs?"


"I didn't mislead anybody on anything," Mr. Hurt said. He said he didn't tell workers preparing to strike that a buyer for Hostess was definitely waiting in the wings.


Mr. Hurt said, "I don't want anybody to think that anybody is guaranteeing anyone anything, but we did know that there were people taking a look at this company."

This would be a truly fantastic drama, if people's lives were not at stake. And no, not one former Hostess worker will retain their job at the new company: that much is certain.

As we said, if only people had a basic understanding of how bankruptcy truly worked, and what the real state of the economy was, then Hostess' workers may have had a chance and some amicable comrpomise would have been possible.

Then again, if people in America actually understood economics and simple finance, then the "Ohio outcome", and many others, would have likely been quite different.

Now we can only hope we were not correct about the ultimate outcome too: namely that the US government will effectively hijack the bankruptcy process, and in doing so "bailout" a junk food maker, just so 18k votes can be preserved at the expense of creditors and making yet another mockery of the bankruptcy process, and property rights in the US.

Then again, this is precisely what the Union was likely hoping for all along, because once the government starts bailing everyone out, just where does it draw the line?


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Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:25 | 3000446 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:37 | 3000486 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Let's see, $200/0.08 equals $2400 per week. Add that up per year, it is 6 figures. A driver makes 6 figures? Time to walk the streets buddy.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:41 | 3000503 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

For want of a twinkie, his condo is lost.  Poetic justice.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:48 | 3000531 ACP
ACP's picture

That also means a bunch more subprime loans go belly-up, which of course, comes right back to screw the taxpayers. We never win, dammit!

Plus, who can fight zombies without twinkies?!?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:07 | 3000593 economics9698
economics9698's picture

"Then again, if people in America actually understood economics and simple finance, then the "Ohio outcome", and many others, would have likely been quite different."

The papers I read in economics are completely hilarious.  The Federal Reserve sets prices so people are protected, government gave us our living standard, if it wasn’t for government we would kill babies and push grandma over the cliff.  Capitalism bad, government is our savior.

Unions are responsible for the middle class. 

They are completely clueless and brainwashed.  It does give me a healthy respect for the power of indoctrination methods; it gets worse as the years go by.

The textbooks are economic gibberish bullshit fairy tales.

On the bright side I am old enough to where I do not give a shit and tell them the truth.  I force them to read ZH.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:23 | 3000644 Curt W
Curt W's picture

If people undertood economics we would not have such wild swings in growth and contraction.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:29 | 3000666 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

If people understood modern economics they'd kill economists and go back to barter.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:31 | 3000674 economics9698
economics9698's picture

lmao, I second that.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:52 | 3000744 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

People simply would not accept a piece of paper for payment unless it's value was specified as an exact quanity of animal, vegetable or mineral. Also, there would be no such thing as interest on a loan, That would again be punishable by death like it used to be

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:45 | 3000893 idea_hamster
Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:59 | 3000920 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

"Enslavethe child"

"Interest is necessary, prudent, and part of a healthy society".  If interest is zero (as it is now), what is the "time value of money"?   There is a giant moral hazard here, and it punishes savers.  If the dollar pay's no interest, and there's a shit ton of downside risk, (like today) why leave it in the bank?  Why not convert it to a commodity, which is at least a store of value?  Why would a bank ever make a loan if there was no usuary?  (The credit cards .... unsecured loans ... get between something like 16-20% .....)

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 12:21 | 3002166 Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

 "I didn't mislead anybody on anything," Mr. Hurt said. He said he didn't tell workers preparing to strike that a buyer for Hostess was definitely waiting in the wings.

Well, let's imagine potential buyers looking at Hostess. One look at the Labor Union encumberances that would be part of the deal was all they needed to say "eh... no thanks, let em' go under".

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 04:08 | 3001331 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Light Paul Krugman a fire, keep him warm for the night.....

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:49 | 3000829 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

If people understood modern economics they'd stop blindly paying dues into a union that doesn't have their best interests as priority #1.

Unions have LONG since become just another layer of control over workers.  So instead of one master to deal with (management), they have two.

For God's sake, the whole fucking country is running on the give-back program right now.  If you keep playing by the "usual rules of engagement" you're going to get results like these.  Management just voted themselves a "severance package" when they saw the end was nigh.  And, by the way, I will bet my ass the union leadership did as well.

If the rank and file wanted a REAL say in things I would recommend they tell the union to fuck themselves on their dues and instead use them to buy an equity position in the company, if not buy it outright and run it themselves.  Hell, they do all the work anyway, right?  So it shouldn't be a stretch to run a fucking Twinkie factory successfully on their own.

Couldn't have turned out any worse for them than it did this way.  Certain death or chance to live.  If my back is against the wall (AND BOTH SIDES GODDAM WELL KNEW THEIR BACKS WERE AGAINST THE WALL FOR A LONG TIME), I'll take that shot.  They chose to walk willfully into the slaughter house.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:44 | 3000891 SokPOTUS
SokPOTUS's picture

LOL! ZH Post-of-the-Year Candidate!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:30 | 3000671 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

...anybody here remember a little company named "Polaroid"???

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:30 | 3000853 msamour
msamour's picture

Thanks for sharing.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 01:37 | 3001256 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

My corp fin professor was hired by Polaroid to help them find value in their company.  

He told them point blank that the best thing they could do for shareholders was to sell the PP&E, distribute the cash to shareholders, and to shut down the company.

This was years and years ago.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 01:53 | 3001272 The Proletariat
The Proletariat's picture

They fucked up....they should've put high fructose corn syrup on their film.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:56 | 3000546 Michaelwiseguy
Michaelwiseguy's picture

The proliferation of Unions is a response to the shrinking US wage/job pie.  Unions are trying to put out a forest fire with a garden hose.  The USA will rot in hell before Americans figure out what the real problem is, and I will laugh my ass off watching it go to Hades.


You can't have job creation in the USA because factories that produce consumer products were removed from the country.

The Money Math for Job Creation doesn't work due to Globalization and the Federal Reserve Corporation.

Globalization = American Wage Arbitrage = Lower Worker Pay

Federal Reserve Corporation = Private Company that Manufactures Paper Money and Sets its Value

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:08 | 3000595 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

more and more fools are believing workers shouldn't get paid anything instead of wondering what the hell happen to this country..

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:13 | 3000612 Popo
Popo's picture

Who said workers shouldn't get paid? That's absurd. They should get paid exactly what the market should bear. Why do you believe they should be paid more than the market should bear? And who should cover that cost?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:29 | 3000665 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

and what the fuck controls management compensation?  unicorns?


"As the company was preparing to file for bankruptcy earlier this year, the then CEO of Hostess was awarded a 300 percent raise (from approximately $750,000 to $2,550,000) and at least nine other top executives of the company received massive pay raises. One such executive received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one taking his salary from $375,000 to $656,256."


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:36 | 3000688 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture


"and what the fuck controls management compensation? unicorns?"

Ostensibly Boards of directors but actually management.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:38 | 3000702 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

sounds like market forces in play there right??   right off a cliff

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:01 | 3000925 centerline
centerline's picture

+1.  Outstanding way of putting it.  The forces at this juncture are what they are.  Right or wrong.  And they lead us to next inevitable change.  Cause and effect.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 04:10 | 3001332 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

The management did such a poor job with this company - that should be the story.

Workers kept up their end of the bargain doing more work for substantially less pay over the years racking up some very profitable seasons. The useless management blew this.

Not focussing on poor management performance is actually worse for everyone. Articles like the stream of nonesense coming out of the WSJ over this particular case highlight the fact.

Management can simply bank on advantageous labour conditions to increase their profits but this weakens their brands. If instead management was expected to actually, oh I don't know, do their jobs (including innovation and responding to market demands) their companies wouldn't have to constantly declare bankruptcy / get gov loans / play financial games etc.

But much better to just blame the people least responsible! 

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 11:12 | 3001897 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

"much better to just blame the people least responsible!"

I STILL meet wingers who tout the "housing crash caused by government FORCING banks to give poor people home loans" line....the invisible hand of wall street propaganda...

"Who said workers shouldn't get paid? They should get paid exactly what the market should bear"

Apparently, the Market can bear Foxconn, Maquiladores and much worse.

No one on this board ever seems to imagine they or theirs pulling a rickshaw some day...."we'll all be dead", right? 

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 15:59 | 3003035 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

We know why you're a Banana American now; you're not paying attention to what actually happened, like 96% of Amerika ...

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 01:00 | 3001210 James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

Zounds, Scooby!

US implodes and we are playing with our Twinkies.

-- Shaggy


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:22 | 3000831 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Well stock holders and also the consmuers have a say and the consumer has the greatest say ultimately but good luck making them care about anything that matters.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:44 | 3000716 Augustus
Augustus's picture

Whatever management has for compensation is meaningless.

If a truckdriver delivering Twinkies gets $125,000, as reported in the article, then what should the person make who figures out how to pay the driver that much for dropping off junk food?

The union president didn't attend the arbitration meeting because he likely was at a job interview.  Wanted to get the jump on the suckers waiting around for news.  Surely this guy will be on the government payroll in a few weeks.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:20 | 3000972 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Where did you get the $125K figure? I don't think so.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:36 | 3001022 tricycle
tricycle's picture

He got it by using math.  The driver claimed that the 8% cut would cost him $200/week.  200/.08 means he makes $2500/week. Allowing for 2 weeks vacation that's $125k a year.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 04:02 | 3001328 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

"He got it by using math.  The driver claimed that the 8% cut would cost him $200/week.  200/.08 means he makes $2500/week. Allowing for 2 weeks vacation that's $125k a year."

Common sense tells me this $125,000 figure for a driver is unlikely, or at least rare.  

The truth of this story - not presented in the WSJ article - is that there was never much possibility in Hostess continuing as a company, from the beginning they wanted to sell it.

Not to mention Hostess has been HORRENDOUSLY managed for a long time. The union wages have been slashed a few times in the past decade.

But sure, blame the workers, not the moronic management (the latter group actually raising their pay exhorbitantly as the company collapsed).

"Hostess has been sold at least three times since the 1980s, racking up debt and shedding profitable assets along the way with each successive merger. The company filed for bankruptcy in 2004, and again in 2011. "

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 12:42 | 3002253 Abaco
Abaco's picture

Plenty of union truck drivers make $125K per year.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 14:42 | 3002754 redd_green
redd_green's picture

Unlikely or rare?   Rare, yes, but, man, you have to readup on the Teamsters.     They are experts at extortion. 

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:32 | 3001158 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Public skooled willy?

Fri, 11/23/2012 - 19:00 | 3007541 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Just scanned the article and yes public skooled. This bankruptcy is also taking down a friend that owns the industrial warehouse where their distribution center was. Totally anti-union until the devastation of the demographic was witnessed. The drivers did not make $125K in the midwest. I don't care what MurDICK's publication said.  

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:59 | 3000761 Umh
Umh's picture

Sounds like the management knew the company was likely to fold.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:57 | 3000916 centerline
centerline's picture

This is nothing short of a disaster and a slap in the face.  Same as every other corporate story.  The greater good is gone.  It is now a game to stick the system as quick and hard as one can.  Make your millions - fuck the rest - and get out.  Legal?  Who the hell cares.  Just a matter of reward versus risk.  Where was that learned?  lol.

This is straight up what everyone deserves in letting "finance and business" folks have control.  I have spent a career fighting this and continue to do so.  But, I have a license to do so... yet the fuckers come in the back door, the front door, the fucking cracks in the floorboards.  Public safety be damned.  We are being overrun.  I won't lose outright but will be driven from my career in time on our current course... and my job is to protect all of you.  Sign of the times... and that of a dying system.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 03:17 | 3001311 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



and what the fuck controls management compensation?  unicorns?

You better give up that "fairness" fantasy, fairness doesn't exist. 

Yea management is gonna pad their pockets, they're greedy just like you union folks are, and they have a lot more say-so over their compensation.

It's just the way it is.  They're greedy.  You're greedy.  No difference.  They'll loot the company for all they can just like you will.

Companies don't exist for workers.  Companies exist for management.  Workers are just "human resources", viewed the same way as a copier or fax machine, a cost of doing business manangement will try to keep low as they can.

Don't like it?   Go start your own company.  Then you're management.  And you'll do just like they do, loot your company for alll you can, pay yourself the most you can get away with.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 10:40 | 3001793 larz
larz's picture

well said COG the system looks good on paper and everyone is a hero in good times but we all have a part in sinking the ship with our greed and avarice, everyone is guilty - some more than others.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 04:12 | 3001333 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Competition controls it.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 07:40 | 3001436 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

What's the problem? The company's been a sinking ship, lost cause, a loser for decades. You think any manager worth salt is going to stick around for less money? You think that when your outpost is going to be overrun, mercenaries aren't going to hit you up, then and there for next years pay? You think Tom Brady is going to play for a loser team for less money?

That's what happens when you are in a bad state, you pay more for talent, by and large. Being a technology backwater, loser, a hundred union company it is hard to get or keep anyone who can think ahead.

Anyway, there's no shortage of bakeries, baked foods, so no problem. There is a shortage of jobs, but Obama, rules, taxes, regulations, fines, permits, licenses.and unicorns will have hordes of new business

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 11:20 | 3001928 ATM
ATM's picture

Seems low for a company that pays it's truck drivers $130,000 a year plus union benefits!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:13 | 3000728 Michaelwiseguy
Michaelwiseguy's picture

American Citizens should be paid the same wages as illegal aliens. That's why they're pushing for amnesty for 12 million of them now.

No, make that, Americans should be paid the same as Chinese people living in Fucking China.

best of walstreetpro2 (greatest fuckin hits) - 1 of 3

best of walstreetpro2 (greatest fuckin hits) - 2 of 3

best of walstreetpro2 (greatest fuckin hits) - 3 of 3

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:29 | 3000997 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

I see it now: Education via YouTube courtesy of MWG AKA "Michael"

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:29 | 3000999 Wannabee
Wannabee's picture

Same as Chinese? I'm all for it! Soon as someone quits making me comply with haz mat mandates, diversity / harassment training / safety training, workmens comp, EPA mandates, etc etc etc......

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 02:44 | 3001302 SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

I miss WSP2

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:45 | 3000894 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

When Detroit used the 2008 crash to cut starting workers' pay to $14/hr while continuing to pay existing workers double that rate, the die was cast.

What the unions saw as a huge victory was little more than a peek at the true market for labor in the U.S. today.

BLS says the average hourly rate is about $22. Easily filling auto jobs at $14 tells PE to rerun their buyout numbers using 36% cheaper labor, and even more with benefit concessions. 

Two earners at $14 who have health coverage can still raise a family above the living standard of most of the world. It's still a letdown from when auto jobs each were a $90K package.

So the unions get to delay big cuts to their dues stream a little longer. New workers get an OK job in a tough economy. PE gets to realise their expected investment payback. Established union workers get to hold most of their gains from the boom years (though screwing their fellow union brothers can't be good karma). The bleeding of jobs to other countries is slowed or reversed. Management gets the market reset they could not pull off on their own, and ...

the true market takes one more step toward revealing its point of equilibrium

What PE, workers who get paychecks from taxes, and management need to understand is that this process is also lowering the average income of the U.S. customer base. Zero % money is also lowering fixed incomes of retirees. Higher school loan totals are lowering the spending power of new college grads entering the workforce.

As a result, products and real estate will continue to see downward pressure as those higher-income union workers exit this world and the core customer becomes the couple each making $14/hr.

We are not Japan? Keep looking.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:31 | 3001007 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

"Two earners at $14 who have health coverage can still raise a family above the living standard of most of the world. It's still a letdown from when auto jobs each were a $90K package."


NOW you're catching on ...

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 02:46 | 3001303 SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

+1 and ask a Delphi (ex) employee how things went for them.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 06:59 | 3001409 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

$14 an hour to run computers running machines to make cars seems a little steep. Not sure why we need an auto industry in America, they are holding us back.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:13 | 3000950 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

You left out a layer. It's the CEO's that get paid what the market can bear, not the worker bee's.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:19 | 3000610 Popo
Popo's picture

Let the bankruptcy tsunami begin. Unions have destroyed American competition. We live in a world where scientists, engineers and programmers make half as much as union truck drivers and elementary school teachers. Of course we're losing. Lets see this joke of an economy fall apart already. True capitalists welcome the coming implosion, and anyone trying to stave it off (bankers, unions, politicians) is part of the problem.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:37 | 3000692 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

yes cause all USA companies are full of sound honest management teams making endless sacrifices and brilliant decisions... not a snake in the grass here..  none at all

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:40 | 3000878 dtwn
dtwn's picture

Scientist here, I can confirm the low pay for many scientists.  The starting salary for a life sciences postdoc (that is like a residency for new PhDs where they develop independent research over the next 2-6 years) is $39,264.  That's after another 5-7 years of training/school beyond a bachelor's degree.  If a truck driver delivering unhealthy food makes substantially more than people who generate knowledge that saves/improves lives, there is something wrong with this nation.  Although the science research market is distorted to begin with as half of it is funded by the government.  As such, imbalances occur for example where there are something like 100,000 excess or under-employed postdocs in the nation.  Let the unions and much government-funded education end and let the market figure out the true cost of labor.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:14 | 3001125 SpykerSpeed
SpykerSpeed's picture

Thanks for the insight, good post.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:41 | 3001173 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Great post dtwn. I still can't believe that wonder bread and twinkies generates so much money to afford a 6 figure income for a fucking truck driver. I doubt he/she even has a semi license., prob a step van.

Gotta have my DING DONGS.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 02:51 | 3001306 SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

fuck the brand.  Let's create our own and call it "Twin Keys"...Already have a logo in mind.

Then we can pay the truck drivers $75K and be rich!

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 01:58 | 3001276 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

You won't know the true cost of labor as long as government is around.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 09:18 | 3001581 ncdirtdigger
ncdirtdigger's picture

You should learn to spread spackling. Those guys make way more than you.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 10:33 | 3001773 Big Corked Boots
Big Corked Boots's picture

BTDT - that job taken over by Mexicans two decades ago. Fail.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:13 | 3000951 centerline
centerline's picture

While I believe in the neverending struggle between labor and employers (ebb and flow), the current system is built to implode and the unions are playing into it like fools.

I have a master's degree in engineering... am a licensed engineer who takes PERSONAL liability everyday... fighting idiots who execute my work and think thier 3rd grade education combined with years of doing things wrong makes them an expert too... fighting business folks who want to tell me I am wrong only because they can (with no basis, no legal or ass-kicking recourse, etc.)... am on call 24/7... etc and etc and etc to the point of frustration and anxiety.  Meanwhile, I know people who drive around everyday, getting full pension benefits (I know they won't see them - different story), no stress, no liability, etc. and make more than me.  I will tell you that "going Galt" is coming.  Us engineers, architects, doctors and the like are going to be the ones to say fuck this and leave... or just change careers.  

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:34 | 3001015 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

Real estate ... if the market ever picks up ... meanwhile work on your golf game ...

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:31 | 3001006 jcrockett870
jcrockett870's picture

Hold the phone Popo.  My husband is a high school Earth science and chemistry teacher and makes a third of that union truck driver's estimated income.  Where the hell do you get off thinking elementary school teachers make 125,000 a year?  What planet are you on?  We'd love to get the damn unions off our back and out of our paycheck, scarfing money out of our check so they can turn around and send us Obama propaganda in the mail every week. You could say, well get out of the public sector.  Sure, but that would open up a vacancy for a libtard moron to take over his classroom and indoctrinate those children with global warming, green energy, sustainablility crap. 

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:31 | 3001008 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

ur full of it. CEO's have destroyed the jobs. you can't compete on a wage slave scale. WTF do you not get?

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 07:03 | 3001410 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

You nailed it. Factory workers are a drag on our economy, sorry to be so blunt. The real value is from those who innovate and manage. People who fuck off in high school and never get beyond buying the next pack of cigarettes and Twinkies need to see their jobs shipped overseas.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 10:31 | 3001768 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

People who fuck off in high school and never get beyond buying the next pack of cigarettes and Twinkies need to see their jobs shipped overseas. "

Tough to find any argument against that ... Darwin's Law as applied to economics ("Survival of the willing-to-work ... extinction for those who aren't willing-to-work"?)


Wed, 11/21/2012 - 14:17 | 3002630 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Yeah - but those people are now being fed and housed by the government - what is the solution to that?

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 14:16 | 3002627 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

I agree bring it all down - let's start from scratch - I'm ready.

Also lawyers are a problem - they make considerably more than any productive person - what do they produce?  Pain and misery. 

Tort reform has to occur as part of any restructuring/solution.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:14 | 3000958 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

"Mike the wise guy"

Have you ever run a company, and paid the costs to all the parasites?  (Unemployment Insurance (exc. mod factor), Liability Insurance, Health Insurance, Workman's Compensation Insurance, Social Insecurity, Medicaid, (the employer pays 1/2 of the last two).  This is all insurance, yet they cannot insure against anything.  The whole game is a ruse.  Then there are the accounting rules, (absolute insanity), and fees like "franchise fees, and manditory training bullshit by the EPA (pick your state), or OSHA.  The assholes in government don't realize that when "private industry" has been finished off .... that they will have to regulate what?  Your Government and communist unions have duped the idiots into thinking that they can force an employer to take zero profit.  Good luck with that. 

My bet is that someone like China will walk over, and pick up the pieces.   All the rules will have been changed.  There will be NO health insurance, or any other type of insurance.  In the inbetween time, destroy all capital, and drive the ambition to work out of the american .... so he will be truely worthless.  Do yourself a favor, and leave the game .... quit playing and paying.  There game will be over when you quit playing it.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:47 | 3001020 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

Asking this of someone who has trouble running his own life? ... chases moonbeams and chemtrails to boot.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:29 | 3001151 Michaelwiseguy
Michaelwiseguy's picture

30 Years as an excellent CNC machinist. My last job, precision diamond tool insert maker, started me at $10/hr. I lasted 14 months there and got myself fired. I'm on my 5th John Galt sabbatical now. My previous sabbatical lasted 5 years. My $1/4 million home is paid off.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:43 | 3001180 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

you would get a job at $25+/hr in your first week in alberta.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 23:33 | 3003888 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

dogbreath: not sure why you got a couple down arrows for your comment. Our warehouse is right next door to a CNC shop in Alberta and that guy is working 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. He's married with 2 small kids and the kids probably can't remember what Daddy even looks like at this stage. I think he'd pay $35/hour just to get some personal down time and have a responsible person with some CNC experience to open up the shop and run things one or two days a week.

The only way you can even hire general labor here is to pay $15/hour CASH. Only recently graduated high school students and recovering crack-heads will work for that price.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 02:54 | 3001308 SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

+1 just for " John Galt sabbatical "...I'm gong to use that!

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 10:07 | 3001691 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

30 Years as an excellent CNC machinist. "

There is no way 30 years as 'excellent' ... 15 or 20 perhaps, since the initial balance of those years (10 or 15) was an apprentice learning the trade from a 'master'.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 23:20 | 3003866 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

As a business, where is the CONTRACT you signed with all the agencies you're bitching about? What do their CORPORATE ACTS, STATUTES AND BYLAWS have to do with YOUR CORPORATATION? And why can't you simply INVOICE any person or Corporation for your time when they try to forcefully demand your time? Why are you even asking government for PERMISSION to make a living? Are you fucking insane (apparently so due to your name)? Are you supposed to starve to death with great ideas in your head because you are afraid of government and think you have to follow their crazy bylaws?

Make stuff, build shit, create useful things with your imagination. Whatever you do, don't ever think you need PERMISSION from a corrupt CORPORATION to do so. I have personally told CRA and cops to fuck off unless they wish to play (and pay) by my rules and my CORPORATE contracts. So far it's working. Use their own rules against them.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 14:03 | 3002563 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

I don't understand - most people on ZH should have the mental power to see why Unions are bad and even unnecessary.  But the Unions just pulled off Obama getting elected.  That means at least 52% of the people still believe in the union bullshit.... WHY?


P.S.  There are still people on ZH supporting unions.... WHY?????

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 14:03 | 3002564 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

I don't understand - most people on ZH should have the mental power to see why Unions are bad and even unnecessary.  But the Unions just pulled off Obama getting elected.  That means at least 52% of the people still believe in the union bullshit.... WHY?


P.S.  There are still people on ZH supporting unions.... WHY?????

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:45 | 3000519 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Vampyroteuthis ...

Now subtract taxes and fees and dues.

For some reason people who bitch about the heavy hand of government in their own pocket forget it exists when discussing the wages of working men.

(Biden 2016, this is the trip, this is the trip itself)


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:49 | 3000535 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

How much do they take out of your Social Security Disability check?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:01 | 3000576 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

UP Forester

How much did they take from my paycheck is what you meant.

If I pay into it I deserve to get it back. If I pay into welfare I deserve to use it if I need it.

Don't attempt to demean Social Security as charity, that is  ignorant.

(Biden 2016, Hunk, hunk of burning love)

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:19 | 3000631 cosmyccowboy
cosmyccowboy's picture

as one who takes credit apps on a daily basis, you wouldn't believe the amount of fine healthy 20, 30 and 40 year old men and women drawing SSI!!!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:39 | 3000703 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Plenty of them come through the Emergency Room, most of them with roofing tar or engine oil all over their hands.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 10:32 | 3001058 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

How does that happen? Where are the 'shop rags' (or Gunk hand cleaner)?


Post does not pass the smell test ...

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:19 | 3000970 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

Vampy ...... the question is WHO LEVIES THE TAXES, FEES, AND DUES (don't forget all the other Bull crap ... like insurance (workman's comp, gen liability, health, .... then the retirement crap ... what a joke)?


Who?  an then for WHAT?  and then WHAT DO THEY DO WITH THE MONEY?   THEN ASK WHY?

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 06:07 | 3001381 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Now subtract taxes and fees and dues. Then add back all the cost components to calculate the fully loaded cost of the employee to the employer.

 for example-

Fully loaded cost per employee $175K

Employee Benefit Package $125K

Take home pay $75K

The cost of government and unions would be 100K per employee.  What the employee takes home of that is irrelevant to the corporation, but labor supporters are stupid when they think that that the actual costs born by the employer are irrelevant to their continued employment.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:36 | 3000695 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

What does a teamster earn where you are?

Has it dawned on anyone why these guys get so worked up about their jobs? They are high paying, non- green, little skilled jobs.

And's gone.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:13 | 3000955 Matt
Matt's picture

Last I heard, there are something like 75,000 open truck driving jobs in America. However, instead of nice little trips from the bakery to the grocery store, most of them will be long haul.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:49 | 3000904 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

I made the same calculation, except $200/0.08 = $2,500.   That's $130,000 per year.  The driver was worried about making $200 less per week ($2,300 per week = $119,600 per year).  I know alot of assholes who would kill to make that kind of dough ..... shit I'ld drive a tank or a Honey Wagon for that.  I feel bad for the driverbeing mislead by the union jerkoff into "no job" ..... never gonna make that kinda dough again ......

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:12 | 3000947 jballz
jballz's picture


If he was making that it is probably because he's been there for 20+ years. Most of the workers made $18 an hour. 

Your problem is you are brainwashed. You think what is totally normal is for all profits, no matter how obsecene, should be siphoned off by bankers and creditors, with the people who actually make the company work and PRODUCE something left perpetually impoverished.

You think this is 'normal'. This is the 'right way' of doing things.

It's a fucking disease.

If the company hadn't been raped 7 ways to sunday by equity extraction hitmen the company COULD pay the people who built the fucking brand 6 figures, satisfy their retirements, and have a decent quality of life for 20,000 people and their families.

Fuck them, they should work for 50 cents an hour. You could find someone would do that job for 50 cents an hour if it weren'f for unions so fuck them. Let them work RIGHT ALONGSIDE THEIR MOTHERFUCKING CHI COM KIDS AT FOXCONN. FUCK THE UNIONS. FUCK ABOLITION BRING BACK SLAVERY GODDAMIT!




Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:50 | 3001193 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Aren't we almost to a full moon by now?

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 10:33 | 3001776 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

Must be ... moonbats come out at dusk ...

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 07:35 | 3001432 Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture




That Hostess truck driver was not making 130k/year. I'll guarantee...


Here's what a Teamster UPS driver can do:


Averages are so misleading. The average UPS driver's pay at this time 09/01/2012 is about $78,000 cash, and benefits of about $30,000 ($31.78 Hr /$47.67 Hr OT)

But drivers with enough seniority can get more overtime by "bumping" junior employees and with 15 hours a week of OT can earn over $100,000. With 20 hours a week of OT can earn over $111,000 cash, over $30,000 in benefits.


That Hostess driver ain't making the UPS bucks. The UPS driver with 15 hours overtime can make over 100k per year. That's 55 hours a week in one of the most dangerous professions there is. They're earning their money.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 09:23 | 3001590 ncdirtdigger
ncdirtdigger's picture

Most dangerous professions?  When did UPS start picking up passangers in Detroit?

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 09:43 | 3001631 Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture



truck driving in general...anywhere.


also one of the most stressful.


#8 as of 2010(workplace fatalities) BLS:


8. Driver/Sales Workers and Truck Drivers: 21.8 per 100,000 -- Up from #17 in 2008.


Wed, 11/21/2012 - 10:35 | 3001782 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture


"  ... #8 ... "


7 categories in front of that ... 

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:51 | 3000906 jballz
jballz's picture

Strangely post bankruptcy there was enough money for 6 and 7 figure pay raises for management.

What is more obscene? A driver making 100k a year to drop off twinkies, or an executive whose only job is to oversee the dipshit driver, who drives the company into the fucking ground and expects a 2 mil salary to do it?

Fuck you union haters, you're don't know shit about anything.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:13 | 3000953 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Both are entirely ridiculous, and as such the company winds up in this very predictable liquidation.

Should have saved those Union dues for some English classes.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:15 | 3000961 centerline
centerline's picture

+1 LnB.  Nice to see you around these days.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:54 | 3001066 jballz
jballz's picture

Companies don't run without labor. Companies do run without debt service piled upon them by LBO artists. This idea that workers who produce are supposed to be held at the lowest common denominator with no consideration of the fact that THEY are the ones who actually build the equity is warped. Thank god we have unions.

As for my English, my phone is a little buggy with the spell checker. You'd be surprised how hard it is to just say

Fuck you !!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:51 | 3001059 Hi Ho Silver
Hi Ho Silver's picture

Unions contracts demanding different product lines be delivered by different drivers? You can't run a business that way! Not these days. Hostess was doomed from the time those agreements were made. It was all just a matter of time after that.

RIP Hostess

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 03:59 | 3001322 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



60 yrs ago when America was rockin thru the biggest boom in its history unions were raping companies up one side and down the other. 

Today the boom is over.  Manufacturing has been shipped overseas taking trillions of dollars of jobs with it.   What's left is burdened with upteen layers of taxes, regulations, and god knows what other expenses that never existed during the boom.

But unions still try to rape companies, demanding boom wages and benefits in a bust economy.

Hostess choosing bankruptcy rather than give in to union demands is an omen of things to come.  Unions are goin' down.

Nobody owes union leeches an upper middle class income for doing a job boatloads of other people would gladly do for half the pay.

Suck it up union leeches, your days of high rollin' are nearly over.  This bust economy is gonna catch up with you and overtake you just like it has everyone else.

Nobody gives a fuck if your dad and granddad were union.  They were lucky.  Your luck has run out.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 07:06 | 3001411 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Greatest Generation nothing but leeches.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 22:56 | 3003845 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Geezer: I wish I could have written that. Thanks for telling it like it really is. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I'm sure there's many 65 year old unemployed ex-union men living with their 90 year old mothers right now. And they're probably blaming the company rather than themselves for their current situation. Meanwhile they haven't worked in a decade or more and are living off our productive generosity.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 10:09 | 3001080 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture




" Strangely post bankruptcy there was enough money for 6 and 7 figure pay raises for management. "


A. It ain't YOUR fing money

B. So-called retention 'bonuses' are paid to keep said personnel on staff to HANDLE THE WIND-DOWN (it's in the court briefing posted on ZH previously)

C. This is a FREE COUNTRY (mostly, so far, subject to change going forward) ...


Wed, 11/21/2012 - 05:29 | 3001360 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

I was UMW and Trumka lied his ass off.

He was at a rally at Little Washington one time. The dude was very obviously living Large on my dime.

Miners have a dangerous job, but this guy only cared for his mafia inspired lifestyle.

He's just another bum who didn't get a silver spoon but realised he could still rip off everyone and live large with communism.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:15 | 3001128 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Damn Vamp, you're spot on. Shit I work my ass off for what? This guy needs to have a welcome to the real world party.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:37 | 3001163 dbomb12
dbomb12's picture

"Lee Iacocca met with union leaders and boldly told them he had thousands of jobs for $17 an hour, but none at $20"

I guess that works with the UAW but not with Bakers Union, I am sure Ol Frank hurt isn't worried with his $210,672 per year and lifetime pension 80% of salary!



Wed, 11/21/2012 - 05:34 | 3001369 mrdenis
mrdenis's picture

Ah Hell that would hardlt pay yer property taxes for a week in jersey !

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 09:29 | 3001600 Taterboy
Taterboy's picture

Go to college or become a Twinkie truck driver? Hmmm?

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 15:26 | 3002919 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

Let's see, $200/0.08 equals $2400 per week.

When you're the union, math is hard.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 21:59 | 3003776 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Are you certain it wasn't a typo of $200 per month instead of $200 per week?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:47 | 3000727 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

They thought it would work and it didn't, now they are running around trying to find a job that paid the same amount and they can't.  They essentially gave up their jobs.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:46 | 3001049 AAA21
AAA21's picture

If we have GOVERNMENT MOTORS why can't we have GOVERNMENT TWINKIE!??  Well, maybe not - 'cause Michelle would definitely not approve!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:26 | 3000447 ACP
ACP's picture

Looks like they all failed to "rise above," BITCHEZ!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:26 | 3000656 max2205
max2205's picture

The exec retainage bonuses will trickle down to those fired...not

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:13 | 3000802 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

But those union dues will still keep still keep on flowing from the taxpayer, to the union member, to the union leaders, tothe  local 'politicians', and will eventually end up in the DNC coffers.  Rinse and repeat.  Or should I say.. 'Strike, raise and repeat'?


Chicago PS teacher's just received a 17% raise... HS graduation rate in the CPS is 47%.


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:28 | 3000451 patb
patb's picture

The unions should buyup the remnant assets under a 363 bankruptcy

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:39 | 3000492 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

They could do it if a Bank would loan them money   -fat chance. Banks don't loan money anymore-too risky. Uncle Ben gives them free money for specualtion and for a nice profit.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:04 | 3000587 Matt
Matt's picture

49 years old, making $130,000 per year. If only there was some way for a person making that kind of money, to be able to make a large purchase, without having to borrow money from a bank ...

I wonder how many of these 18,500 workers have any significant savings, outside of, possibly, their homes?

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:28 | 3000455 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

Good job unions, proving irrelevancy yet again.

Corporations aren't that much better, either.


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:44 | 3000518 Ajas
Ajas's picture

Seriously.  8% is $200/wk.  With drivers bringing in $130k/yr no wonder they BK'ed

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:47 | 3000528 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Now subtract taxes fees and dues for that salary. Then subtract food, utilities, insurance and so forth.

Doesn't look so good in the end.

(Biden 2016 I am the GOD OF HELLFIRE and I bring you FIRE!)

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:50 | 3000738 Augustus
Augustus's picture


You might not think it looks too good.

With the average household income about $50,000 / yr., the fellow is probably in the top 25%.  With all the responsibilities of a Twinkie Delivery schedule.  I'm really tearing up.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:45 | 3000896 dtwn
dtwn's picture

Yeah, not gonna tear up either.  When a relative makes $40K in good years, and is going to lose money this year working her ass off as a small-business manufacturer, there isn't much sympathy to give to a gear jockey paid 6 figures.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:19 | 3000968 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Top 25%? Thats top 5% on individual income.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 06:15 | 3001387 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Try running a business some time.  The labor expense incurred by the employer is much higher that the employees see.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 08:09 | 3001472 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Do not forget to add in Workmans Compensation, Unemploymnet Insurance, Retirement Benefits.  Add in the cost of the Truck.  The capital to buy the Truck, the Insurance, the repairs, the tires, the Gas, oil changes.  The cost of the Truck staying idle if the Employee calls in sick.

These are things that the Employee never consider.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 22:48 | 3003831 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Gully: How come when I click your account I get a page saying "Access Denied"? I haven't seen that before with any other member here. And yes, I'm logged in, not just surfing.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:08 | 3000597 yabyum
yabyum's picture

They went BK because the make really shitty food.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:21 | 3001137 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

It's a big stretch to call Twinkies "food". More like "Filler". Or how about "Bloater"?


Wed, 11/21/2012 - 00:43 | 3001177 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Artificially flavored, artificially colored, partially hydrogenated, high fructose styrofoam, filled with a whipped, creamy emulsion of corn syrup and titanium dioxide.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 01:11 | 3001221 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

O yum. Funny how the discretionary income of many people afforded this company to make billions. Boggles the mind.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:29 | 3000457 runlevel
runlevel's picture

LOL morans

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:43 | 3000512 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

Moran? That's RAYCISS!

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:30 | 3000458 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

yeh......sure those dirty unions.....I guess after the bankers got the pensions from the hostess proles they need to bundle it up sans union for the next banker buy out.....hehehhehe ...heck this is a great racket.....AND ITS LEGAL....thats the best part

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:23 | 3000645 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Have you ever actually been in charge of supervising UNION workers? I have, going right back to the mid 80's. I can say this with utmost confidence: The unions fuck themselves. One of the union negotiators I dealt with who was a dye-in-the-wool socialist actually took the postition of HEAD COMPANY NEGOTIATOR for fucking NESTLE in Toronto shortly after doing Gods work for the union that he represented for the workers at our plant (totally unrelated to Nestle). Needless to say all the socialists at our plant were fucking STUNNED that their head union guy went company.

In 1985 we were paying forklift operators $14/hour. That's the same as they are making TODAY. Except for inflation, etc. Guess what happened to the DOLLAR since 1985? And guess what finally happened to our plant in 1989?

Shall I give you an example of how a guy I know who was unemployed for the longest time all of a sudden became a "business agent" for a union and was paid $600/week with a "union company car"?...

Here's the bottom line on this: Unions are a fucking BUSINESS and they operate EXACTLY LIKE any other business. People bitch about paying taxes to the government but they think nothing of paying their UNION DUES for the same ass-raping they get from the government.

I need a fucking beer!


Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:38 | 3000701 ironsky
ironsky's picture

My old man was both UMW and USW at different points in his life. He always hated the "grievance man" more than the foreman.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:05 | 3000778 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Yeah, I know where your old man is coming from. A fucking idiotic "grievance" could shut down production for a day. A fucking DAY! The workers sure know how to slit their own throats. Most of them were middle aged and making good money. They will never reclaim those glory days, or their pension money.

I'm guessing there's a bunch of 65 year old (union) men living with their 90 year old mothers right now.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 22:04 | 3003780 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

That's a good point - what happens to their Union pensions?  Were they fully funded?  Are they going to lost in bankruptcy and shipped off to PBGC?

I guess the union double-fucked it self - double plus good.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 21:53 | 3000745 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

Actually Angus I broke a union in my business.......I had over a hundred employees now was purely business...but that doesn't excuse stealing their pensions no more than it excuses their tactics. When you demonize working people and treat them like shit then you will reap the wind......whether its unions or non union the working guy is getting fucked in every orifice of his being and at the same time the small business man is getting it up his ass from the same banksters.........divide and conquer

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:30 | 3000852 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

"divide and conquer" and the gov will fix it

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 22:31 | 3000854 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

kliguy38: Thanks for another good opinion/example. We really need to be aware of the divide and conquer play. And it's always in play.

I'm a working guy and I have no intention of demonizing anyone except the corrupt banksters and politicians. I learned long ago not to be swayed by idiot union workers either. Talk to me straight and I'll be straight and honest with you. If I smell an agenda I will fucking demonize the shit out of you.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 01:16 | 3001225 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

+10 right on.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:33 | 3000463 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

This is the basic problem with the corporate system.   The top management walks away with millions, shareholders lose everything and workers lose everything, but the brand will continue because it has inherent value.  A new set of management at a new entity that buys the brand will make millions selling Twinkies in the future.  If old management stood to lose what they pulled out in bonuses and exhorbitant salary at hundreds of times workers salary (which obviously were not deserved -- see outcome), these outcomes would likely be quite different.  But the corporate system protects them and it is virtually impossible to claw back even clearly outrageous pay received while the company was tanking head first into oblivion.

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 20:37 | 3000481 john39
john39's picture

fights with the union may have been the straw that broke the camel's back... but you can probably safely assume that the managment loaded the company up with debt and probably made any number of stupid decisions running it into the ground.

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