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Mas Trouble In Little Spain As Country Layers Constitutional Crisis Onto Economic Depression

Tyler Durden's picture


Catalonia's exit polls confirm over two-thirds of votes will go to pro-independence parties that will likely push for a referendum to break away from Spain, which the central government will challenge as unconstitutional. The more-populous-than-Denmark region is home to car factories and banks that generate one-fifth of Spain's economic wealth (larger than Portugal's). The incumbent, Artur Mas, has converted to a more radical separatist bias since huge street demonstrations in September showed the will of the people. As Reuters notes, growing Catalan separatism is a huge challenge for Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who is trying to bring down painfully high borrowing costs by persuading investors of Spain's fiscal and political stability. Critically, the exit polls suggest the dominance of separatist parties will mean a referendum for secession within two years - leaving us asking the simple question: who will buy any Spanish debt, even fully backstopped by the ECB, if there is a real risk that in under two years, 20% of Spanish GDP will simply pick up and leave.



  • *ERC HAS 20-23 SEATS IN EXIT POLL BY TV3 (Separatist)
  • *ICV, which backs referendum, wins 10-12
  • *CUP, which backs independence, wins 5-6



Via Reuters:

Spain's Catalonia region, fed up with the tax demands of cash-strapped Madrid, was expected to elect on Sunday a separatist government that will try to hold a referendum on independence.



"It's time for Catalans to pursue their own nation. When you're in a relationship and you're not getting along you work for mutual respect. We've tried, but Spain hasn't," said Jose Manuel Victoria, 67, who voted for the main pro-independence party.



With more people than Denmark and an economy almost as big as Portugal's, Catalonia has its own language. Like Basques, Catalans see themselves as distinct from the rest of Spain.


Growing Catalan separatism is a huge challenge for Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who is trying to bring down painfully high borrowing costs by persuading investors of Spain's fiscal and political stability.



Up until recently Mas was a moderate nationalist who had pushed Spain to give Catalonia more self-governing powers. He has followed the popular mood in converting to a more radical separatism, but it is not clear he can hold a referendum legally.


Many Catalans are angry that Rajoy has refused to negotiate a new tax deal with their largely self-governing region. Annually, an estimated 16 billion euros ($21 billion) in taxes paid in Catalonia, about 8 percent of its economic output, is not returned to the region.


Home to car factories and banks that generate one fifth of Spain's economic wealth, ...




After a decade of overspending, Catalonia's debt has been downgraded to junk. Blocked from the bond markets, Mas has had to seek billions of euros in rescue funds from the central government in Madrid, itself fighting to prevent financial meltdown.


But, on the campaign trail, Mas focused on the region's gripes with Madrid. He told supporters he wanted to be the last president of Catalonia within Spain.


Wary that separatism could spread to the Basque Country and beyond, Rajoy said this week that the Catalan election is more important than general elections.



"Don't stay at home (on election day) if you don't want them to kick us out of Spain and out of Europe," she said at a campaign rally this week.





Enthusiasm for independence could ebb if voters think the price is having to leave the European Union, leaving Mas high and dry.


"I have no interest in independence. It's totally irresponsible," said 45-year-old Luis, a Peruvian immigrant and salesman who voted for the PP.


"It means exiting the EU and a drop in Gross National Product... Mas is an economist. He knows this but he isn't saying it. Why?" said Luis, who declined to give his last name.


After the vote Mas will struggle to push conflicting agendas: his promised referendum on independence and his drive to cut Catalonia's high deficit.

The only possible spin by the statists is that there is a possibility that the CIU and ERC will not come to an agreement over a referendum, and that the wealth redistribution from Europe's solvent to its insolvent can continue under the guise of a common currency:

Mas - who converted to separatism after huge street demonstrations in September - is unlikely to win the 68 seats needed for an absolute majority.


He will have to team up with smaller pro-independence groups such as the Republican Left, or ERC, to push ahead with the plebiscite that he promised to voters.

Follow the results live here:


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Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:09 | 3010041 InfinityZero
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Civil War bitchez!

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:27 | 3010055 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

-1 keyboard warmonger
do your own one instead of cheering one of strangers

that is highly unlikely anyway for Catalunia, Flanders and Scotland

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:29 | 3010076 flacon
flacon's picture

Let the people decide. Looks like they have. Good - and a great big middle finger to Madrid and Brussels. 

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:35 | 3010088 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Perhaps Madrid but Brussels?

All european separatists want a seat in the Council.

All want their independent countries to be part of the EU.

Scotland might even want to join the EURozone, F and C do not want to leave it.

Those are* results* of the EU project.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:09 | 3010128 Kitler
Kitler's picture

All european separatists want a seat in the Council.

Don't forget paychecks through Council connections, and jobs for their kids and friends through the Council and business deals and kickbacks through selling influence on the Council...

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:20 | 3010139 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

The Spoils of Politics have many forms...

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:22 | 3010147 magpie
magpie's picture

So...where will Scotland and Catalonia be in the ECB...hard or soft Euro

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:27 | 3010154 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Heck, Catalonia is not Spain !!!

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:08 | 3010220 saturn
saturn's picture

Who will NATO bomb next? Spain or Catalunia?

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:11 | 3010224 magpie
magpie's picture

Depends on the size of the Dollar short squeeze needed ?

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 21:51 | 3010565 Looney
Looney's picture

Who will NATO bomb next? Spain or Catalunia?

saTURN, you almost got it right, almooost! I'll give you an ATTABOY (or an ATTAGIRL, if you wish). It is actually CATALUNYA.

(I've just ran my own post through the Google-Translate and the translation reads, "You are an Asshole!").  ;-)

asshoLOONEY   ;-)

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:57 | 3010265 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

To consider what is or is not 'Spain' - or even 'Catalonia' - is even more complicated. This has been going on for centuries.

With this big wrinkle for Catalan-speaker independence:

Catalan is also the main language in two other big provinces of Spain - Valencia, and the Balearic Islands including Majorca and Ibiza - and oddly enough, the people in those provinces DON'T WANT to be run by their fellow Catalan-speakers in Barcelona, whom they consider to be a bigger pain in the arse than far-away Madrid.

Furthermore, Catalonia has a group of people speaking a different language altogether, in the Val D'Aran, they speak Aranese, a version of the 'Occitan' language spoken in several countries (including Provençal in France) ... Should they have a referendum to split from Catalonia now?

Catalan is already the official language of the adjacent small tax-haven independent nation of Andorra ... no income tax there, like in Monaco ... Instead of 'independence' why not  just transfer-merge with Andorra?

Spain has a number of official languages aside from its main Castilian Spanish. Basque in the Basque region, and they have a big separatist movement too.

Galicia north of Portugal has their language, which is a dialect of Portuguese, and the Galicians aren't so much separatists from Spain as much as some of them think it just makes more sense to merge with Portugal.

So the whole Iberian peninsula has a whole bunch of different languages ... and at one point the whole stew was even one country, when marriage dynasties merged Spain and Portugal hundreds of years ago.

Economics writer Martin Hutchinson has raised an interesting possibility ... The Spanish and Portuguese economies are pretty well matched, so they can both default and leave the euro and have a new 'Ibero' ...

Obviously they need to dump the euro ... and once they have that accomplished, they can just accept they have half a dozen languages in the region and it won't really matter so much whether it's nation or province.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:36 | 3010169 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"One to rule them all?" /deep voice
"There can be only one?" /loud
"...just right!" /blond with locks

Pick yours

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:06 | 3010214 midtowng
midtowng's picture

this is a good thing. Democracy doesn't work on a massive scale (one big reason it has failed in America).

It works best on a small scale. Spain should break up, as should the EU.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:23 | 3010239 SmallerGovNow2
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As should the states of the USA....  Screw the Kings in DC...


Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:10 | 3010223 Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture

The problem flacon, as you know.."the people" do not get to decide anything in our fascist world.   Governmental and Corporate parasites who feed off the productivity of "the people" have the power, and will not let "the people" go, as it would end the parasites financial supply chain.

Most of the worlds problems could be resolved with a reversion to smaller more locally operated governments.  But the parasites are too hungry and will not let this happen.   Certainly not by "vote".  No need to give any history lessons on ZH.  We know there's only one path.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 19:10 | 3010366 rsi1
rsi1's picture

the people have decided, ZH has got it wrong, pro separatist parties have even lost power vs 2010 elections  so its not a win in any case for the pro-separatist movement.

ZH is becoming worse than FOX news when reporting some news that do not go with its motto.. 


Read other sources too! (yes a pro Spain/ Anti independence source) (And a catalan Source, more pro independence)



Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:17 | 3010056 slaughterer
slaughterer's picture

Has Texas left the USA yet?  

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:25 | 3010067 Conman
Conman's picture

Read texas v white 1869 supreme court ruling. already ruled on basically.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:53 | 3010113 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

But the constitution is dead now. So let's rule again.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:56 | 3010205 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Yeah.  Best 2 of 3.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:40 | 3010093 EuroInhabitant
EuroInhabitant's picture

Hell no. Mas will not get an absolute majority, so there will be no referendum. Catalonia is a non-problem. What have we got more? Greece, surprise, surprise. Tomorrow they will reach a deal on Greece. So two "problems" being tackled in 24 hours. Bye bye crisis.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:01 | 3010121 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

LOl yes because ever rising unpayable debt levels are no problem whatsoever. Smoked any good Keynesian moonweed recently?

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:16 | 3010132 Matt
Matt's picture

They will reach a deal on Greece to get the debt to 120% of GDP by 2025. This deal will "fix" things for the next 6 months. Rally On!

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:03 | 3010210 EuroInhabitant
EuroInhabitant's picture

The nationalists lose seats. No referendum. Bye bye Catalonian "crisis".

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:15 | 3010230 Joe A
Joe A's picture

A coalition would have absolute majority so don't get your hopium up high yet.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:37 | 3010248 EuroInhabitant
EuroInhabitant's picture

A coalition is a hell of a job. Look at Syriza in Greece: kept out of government, no default of Greece, no leaving the euro. Same now for Catalonia.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:46 | 3010257 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Catalunya is not Greece. And the pro-independence vote is now stronger. MAS will now have to negociate with other pro-independence parties and where there is a will, there is a way. Don't underestimate people's will to selfdetermination. Keep believing in your utopian EU dream. Only 30% of EU citizens trusts the EU according to a EU study.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 18:49 | 3010325 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

EuroInhabitant said:

Look at Syriza in Greece: kept out of government, no default of Greece, no leaving the euro. Same now for Catalonia.

...boring world we live in. </LookingWithAmazement>

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 04:14 | 3010775 Madrid2020
Madrid2020's picture

Please facts are not appreciated here.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:18 | 3010233 negative rates
negative rates's picture

No, but that Panama Red made me want to get down your shirt.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 19:03 | 3010348 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture


Smoked any good Keynesian moonweed recently?

Keynesian moonweed?! Good Ghodd, keep away from that shit! It distorts reality worse than angel dust, resulting in a random and unpredictable reversal of perceived cause and effect. It also causes an arrogant sense of omniscience, turning users into bigger assholes than cokeheads. Worst of all, its effects don't wear off; the only known remedy is a massive number of bonghits of Austrian gold.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 19:11 | 3010368 rsi1
rsi1's picture

yes! so get ready to sell the news as soon as they announce greece! 

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 21:09 | 3010510 tango
tango's picture

Not exactly sure what planet you are on but the pro-separatists had 87-88 (out of 135).  Mas's party did not win an outright majority but anti-Spain parties won huge.  In fact, the voters deserted Mas for more radical parties because they distrusted him.  It's not as if they are ecstatic over union with Spain.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:14 | 3010042 knukles
knukles's picture

The whole thing's coming unglued.
Hooray for the NWO
Order from Chaos (or whatever)

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:03 | 3010125 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

"We're starving and can't afford the newest iPad. Please give us the ultimate centralized response. We're ready for eugenics, however you want it.

People of the world"

(sent from my iPhone)

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 18:15 | 3010285 blabam
blabam's picture

This is one of those rare instances where democracy and freedom do not apply.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 21:16 | 3010528 CH1
CH1's picture

This is one of those rare instances where democracy and freedom do not apply.

Rare??? RARE!!!!?????

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:10 | 3010046 DavidC
DavidC's picture

Things aren't getting any better, are they?


Sun, 11/25/2012 - 18:12 | 3010282 hawk nation
hawk nation's picture

It depends how long you are in physical gold and silver

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:14 | 3010051 resurger
resurger's picture


Okay, and once they get separated, from where will they get the money!

Oh wait,

Borrow, Rinse , Repeat!

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:19 | 3010062 cossack55
cossack55's picture


Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:51 | 3010107 Incubus
Incubus's picture

the worst scum always sinks to the top.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:17 | 3010057 Conman
Conman's picture

The worse the news, the higher the EUR goes which drags the ES with it. Fun ride isnt it?

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:18 | 3010061 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

I suspect that China would be happy to lend an independent Catalonia many many billions in exchange for being able to build a port complex in Barcelona from which they could stalk the markets of Europe.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:20 | 3010063 Debeachesand Je...
Debeachesand Jerseyshores's picture

They must be taking a cue from Texas.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:26 | 3010071 magpie
magpie's picture

Last time i checked, they too are a Lone Star Republic

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:21 | 3010066 JeremyWS
JeremyWS's picture


Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:28 | 3010068 magpie
magpie's picture

The irony of it is the EU was also conceived as the 'Europe of the regions', which means weakened nation states and even the tolerance of separatism.
One might think that this would be the perfect opportunity for the EU to exert its primacy over 'obsolete' Spain - indeed a fine one were the EU solely a political construct, without a single currency and messy questions of debt and default.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:55 | 3010109 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

The EU?

No, what you are describing is older than that, and for a while it was called The Concert Of Europe.

This resulted long ago in the neutrality of Switzerland, the BeNeLux split and many other adjustments.

The EU as such it's only a kind of "Treaty Mill", an Agreement Office with a small budget.

Stop thinking the AngloAmerican power structures and it's models are applicable to the Continent. The UK does it all the time, expecting others to look for it's guidance instead of offering partnership.

Remember that the EU (27) is not the EZ (17). Two separate clubs..

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:01 | 3010118 magpie
magpie's picture

I was pointing out that it was not exactly outside the EUs interest that these kind of movements gain traction (probably more so in the case of Scotland).

As has been mentioned by other posters the main problem after constitutional niceties have been settled would be the (temporary) fiscal exit and the financial re-integration into the Eurozone, against massive resistance by the mother country.

The conflation of both zones has been a staple for the past years, I was never fooled.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:22 | 3010144 hawk nation
hawk nation's picture

Looking forward to this movement in the states since we wont need a new constitution but simply going back to the original intent

Anyone who states the lost revenue from the government i say bull shit since with the fed gov out of the states affairs everything they do and every service the state provides ill get cheaper with federal regulation

The added advantage is if local politicians dont follow the constitution they ill be readily available for the consequences

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:30 | 3010157 magpie
magpie's picture

Yes, but these people are mostly going for a conditional independence and would love to stay in the Euro.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:25 | 3010150 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Fiscal exit, yes. But in all three cases the mother countries are preparing paths for quite amicable divorces. It's not as if they would move away, after all.

Change country, not residence?

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:33 | 3010162 magpie
magpie's picture

Amicable ? Not so sure, when they are threatening their sucessor states with vetoes. As i said, to a degree it fits the EU game plan very well, but exposes it to extra negotiations of haircuts and stealth defaults on the way out and back in.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:41 | 3010174 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Yes, but it's still a family affair.

OK, OK, the War of Roses (movie and historical) was one, too, but an extreme one nevertheless.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:46 | 3010179 magpie
magpie's picture

Then off to the BB ticker to find the Catalunyan 10 year

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:28 | 3010074 Frastric
Frastric's picture

"who will buy any Spanish debt, even fully backstopped by the ECB, if there is a real risk that in under two years, 20% of Spanish GDP will simply pick up and leave."

No problem, when Catalonia leaves the Spanish government will just revise all their GDP with Catalonia stricken off.

Catalonia they will say? Never heard of it!

Course Tyler may have a point if Catalonia is the only region stopping Spain descend into a second-world country...

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:33 | 3010084 djsmps
djsmps's picture

They have the coolest cathedral in Europe, La Sagrada Familia. I say, go for it. After staying in Barcelona for a bit, I thought it was the only city in Europe that I wouldn't mind living in.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:39 | 3010092 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Oh just stop selling us on the failed socialists European Union experiment.


  • Raise the retirement eligibility to 110 years
  • Bring back the theory on hosting century bonds


Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:44 | 3010097 markar
markar's picture

Rajoy is a fool if he can't see the handwriting on the wall. The boys in Brussels, London, & NY want him out. His only move to save himself and Spain at this point is to default and leave the EU.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:44 | 3010099 DavyRoySixPack
DavyRoySixPack's picture

Separatism in terms of governance and entire "entitled mathematics"/propaganda of socialism. Will Chicago style thuggery in the US embolden the dominant minority to force feed us dead food and dead talk about "cities on a hill?". Buck Rodgers -digital currencies that produce fountains of death - not youth. Yes, a remnant will escape this madness; this is my hope. People want freedom from these germs of generational treachery!    

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:18 | 3010105 michael_engineer
michael_engineer's picture

Are there any studies or analyses available that indicate secessionary moves may be bad for both the secessionistas and their splinter?

I would think the cross commerce between the two groups would almost completely shut down which could easily lead to both groups ending up worse off than before.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:55 | 3010115 10044
10044's picture

coming to a state near you.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:55 | 3010116 drdj4425
drdj4425's picture

Whether it is Catalonia or Texas; no one gets to leave without taking a proportionate share of the sovereign debt with them.  Eventually, the whole debt problem, be it individual, corporate, or sovereign, will end badly with all parties trying to walk away from what they owe.  

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:02 | 3010122 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture


So much for EU "integration".

Sure everyone wants in when there is a trough of cheap money to stick the snout in.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:22 | 3010146 DeliciousSteak
DeliciousSteak's picture

I don't see the problem. The European nation state is obsolete. It's a great thing that distinct regions might get the chance to be part of an integrated European structure outside of their traditional central governments. There is no need for European nation states anymore. That structure is obsolete and it's time to move on to the next stage of European social evolution.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:33 | 3010163 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

You're on drugs pal.

No region wants to pay for another regions debt.

Yeah, one big centralized black hole.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:18 | 3010137 vinayjha
vinayjha's picture

Bad news Euro will rally to 1.50

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 06:06 | 3010799 Orly
Orly's picture

It would be more helpful if you would explain your ideas as to why that would be instead of sticking a link to a live chat on the board.

Are you taking into account all the debt the ECB is going to have to absorb over the next eight months?  Probably not...


Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:20 | 3010140 Haus-Targaryen
Haus-Targaryen's picture

I FUCKING HATE THE EMU/EU.  The quicker this dies, the better it will be.  Bar none.  


Down with these fascist bastards.  

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:24 | 3010148 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture


Common sense tells you that if you are smaller entity by about 10 million people your voice is

a lot smaller when compare to Germay, France or even British.  If you spending a lot of effort and money to keep it

together than it makes sense to let it go.  Look at large corporation vs smaller one: who has the advantage. Basic managment

theory says that a large corporation can smooth out it earning when some unit is not performing so well.  But that's under

"old" accounting technique. Today those rules don't apply.


Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:33 | 3010245 michael_engineer
michael_engineer's picture

Economies of scale favor not fragmenting.

Plus a pissing match over it could escalate to a shit storm. Shit storms are notoriously bad for local economies in a zero sum game. The proverb "don't shit in your own backyard" would be applicable. That would make it hard to smell the roses.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 18:16 | 3010287 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Or feed the carbonator for that matter.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:39 | 3010171 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

"who will buy any spanish debt" Answer.....= "The Bernanke"

He eats that stuff for breakfast.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:42 | 3010175 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

And as the economy becomes worse in Spain because of separatists movements, the secession movement will become even bigger... the beast will feast on itself... which is good. Bring on the chaos, bring on the end of the EU and the euro!

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 16:47 | 3010181 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

And there are those who still claim that nationalism will never return and the Euro will never fail.

The same who say the Greek debt is payable, and that austerity will work.


Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:11 | 3010216 falak pema
falak pema's picture

finally the regions get it : if the centre does not have the cojones to plug the plug, lets all go regional like ICeland and THEN pull the plug. 

Having said that I would not confuse current regional independence with the demise of Euro prject; just the demise of current financial system. What will come out if something does, could be more regional autonomy but more euro cooperation as well. 

The current system is in gridlock because the financial system is IMPORTED not home grown; the only home grown element is the banks who bought into global US finance model; and politicians who had no guts at the center. We need a profound overall which also includes an new paradigm of society. 

Tipping point first world. Copernician revolution. 

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 17:11 | 3010225 chistletoe
chistletoe's picture

maybe Catalonia can form a new union .... with Texas .....

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 18:14 | 3010284 Volaille de Bresse
Volaille de Bresse's picture

"They have the coolest cathedral in Europe, La Sagrada Familia"


It's an ugly piece of baroque shit (imo).

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 18:33 | 3010300 Bastiat009
Bastiat009's picture

Catalonia will leave the EU? Says who?

Catalonia is broke and its main asset is from Argentina. Without Messi, Catalonia is nothing.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 18:35 | 3010302 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

A major difference between Catalonia and Texas is that in Catalonia the people can hold a referendum and vote to secede - in Texas the people have no direct say in state decisions through referendums. And by the way, Texas doesn't have any legal or treaty-based right to secede - that is a pipe dream. I live in Texas and wish that there was some basis for secession - I would vote for it in a heartbeat - but it just isn't there. It's possible that someone can come up with a brilliant plan, but so far it hasn't happened. Advocating for secession is just a way to express hatred for the Feds - which I share. Now if some evil terrorist group managed to vaporize DC with a nuke, god forbid with congress in session, then things might change. But gosh, that would be such an awful event I'm sure that no true American would ever want such a thing to happen.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 19:26 | 3010388 Isotope
Isotope's picture

1. Sounds a bit like a Tom Clancy novel.

2. Awful event: destroy DC suddenly vs. DC slowly destroying the rest of the country? I think I would have to give a thumbs down to DC.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 20:23 | 3010468 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

The Spain constitution forbids such referendums that's why it is unclear whether Mas can actually change anything.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 19:09 | 3010360 gould's fisker
gould&#039;s fisker's picture

They'll double up on the Euro can-kicking meetings and no one will know what the hell is going on for another year--if the broke appear not to need immediate fixing double down.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 19:24 | 3010382 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Global Secession Against Banker Occupation.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 19:36 | 3010401 dolly madison
dolly madison's picture

Catalonia has people still alive who lived under participatory democracy for a time, and some there have been calling for it again.  It is a place to watch.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 20:20 | 3010464 ShortTheUS
ShortTheUS's picture

The latest dispatches by Reuters and AP say the results HURT the independence movement but Bloomberg and AFP say it boosts chances of independence. WTF??

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 21:18 | 3010531 CH1
CH1's picture

The goons from Foggy Bottom were whispering in ears. American news is now The Voice of The Elite.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 21:54 | 3010562 sunnyside
sunnyside's picture

I think that as someone said earlier, much of the secession talk here in the US is just frustration.  A return to our Constitution could quiet that.  I have often wondered what would happen if a state really tried. 

Though not from there, I love Texas and most Texans I have met are nice people, but I think Alaska would be the better choice to leave first.  Geographically or physically separate and with the shortest length of time in the US, and with a fairly independent people, I could see it happening if the shit gets deeper.  DC may control the IRS and TSA types, but no way do I see our military getting involved to stop Alaska from telling DC to fuck off.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 22:26 | 3010599 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

"Just walk away." Renounce all your debts. It's the New Paradigm.

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 04:08 | 3010774 Madrid2020
Madrid2020's picture

The only thing the two Catalan Nationalist party dislike more than Spain is each other! Catalans don't want an independent state,they just want to pay less taxes and that Barcelona should beat Madrid. Everyone Chill,this ain't Bosnia or Northern Ireland. 


Mon, 11/26/2012 - 06:35 | 3010808 Satan
Satan's picture

Un altre estranger que sap el que vol...

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 06:19 | 3010789 falak pema
falak pema's picture

The ongoing implosion in the Houses of Atreus of First World :

After the debacle of USA GOP in recent elections, the tearing assunder of one huge segment of the political process in the greatest democracy in the world; or what was supposed to be; we now have the perspective in this country of Oligarchy filling in the political vacuum created, by OVERTLY dictating to both left and right wings the way to run the country and the world. 

The implosion of the GOP into a populist far right "tea party" wing and an effete and corrupted "moderate" wing has spreadeagled the right aisle of political America. And this in NOT OVER.

Witness now the tearing assunder of right wing populist Spain into regional divides of historical nature : Castillian MAdrid vs Catalonian Barcelona; shades of the Franquist civil war now approach the Spanish people caught up in an economic turmoil imposed by the Oligarchs on their country. And its NOT OVER; ITS JUST BEGINNING.

Witness now also the incredible implosion of the right wing Gaullist party that has now occured over the last week in France. Where two factions are each other's throats like during the Saint-Barthelemy of sad remembrance. At this point in time it looks like the Right wing party will implode totally leaving no Gaullist opposition to current Socialist government. Its an incredible situation as the GAullists have created the current Vth Republic structure.

What have these three events got in commun as they shatter the democratic consensus in three major nation states?

The age of Oligarchy now runs de facto these countries and the political parties are feeling the pain, of having to assume insurmountable debts in government's name and having to assume in the context of mounting public discontent the public blame personally.

We are truly in the House of Atreus and when THIEVES FALL OUT in the storm clouds of their own visible impotence, the knives come out and democracy's blood will flow in gushes as these shills rush out blindly to protect their own personal interests. 

Why has the Pope of ZH's Euro bashing not written something on this trend in "Stupeeed France"; I refer to our good friend Wolfy of Testospit.

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