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The One Time When More Is Certainly Not Better

Tyler Durden's picture


Presented with little comment - except to say, maybe those Mayans were on to something?



Source: Goldman Sachs


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Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:26 | 3024782 realtick
realtick's picture

Nice chart

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:33 | 3024803 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Could we also get an overlay of money creation from each of the central?  Correlation might not be causation, but I bet the charts would be pretty similiar across the board.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:34 | 3024814 ZippyBananaPants
ZippyBananaPants's picture

Is the 'others category' when you Shart your pants?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:36 | 3024830 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

Mathew 24 "Wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes in diverse places"


Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:49 | 3024893 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Looks like the ten year gold chart, just sayin....

We live in interesting times.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:21 | 3025021 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

It's a chart on how easily people panic over what we used to call "the weather"

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:40 | 3025265's picture

Whose numbers are they using? Was the definition of what is considered to be a flood, storm, etc consistent through the time period shown on the graph? Is this worldwide data? Were disasters in remote areas reflected in the old data (before satellites, fewer meteorological stations, thinner population) as opposed to newer data?

Does this graph show a greater awareness of natural disasters rather than an increase in disasters themselves.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:42 | 3025285 Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

Trend peaked in 2005.  What a relief, cuz I was thinking this boob Obama was *really* going to fuck everything up.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:45 | 3025292 Oquities
Oquities's picture

it's clearly a natural disasters head and shoulders formation portending an upcoming crash in floods, storms, and volcanos.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:04 | 3025342 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

And ... just as rational

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:15 | 3025373 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Please don't be so quick to dismiss the Fibonacci Sequence, as it is the math behind EVERYTHING! Or was that the quants and algos?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:30 | 3025408 FoxMulder
FoxMulder's picture


Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:41 | 3025546 hustler etiquette
hustler etiquette's picture

Now that's class

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:48 | 3025678 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

People live in places they didn't before. In the past, if no one is hit by a natural disaster, is it still a disaster? It is all probability.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 23:00 | 3025791 alesarte
alesarte's picture

overlay global population and you'll have your correlation.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:16 | 3026032 old naughty
old naughty's picture

"...trend peaked in 2005..."

until we see another peak, hockey stick !

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:23 | 3026038 UncleFurker
UncleFurker's picture


Looks like the worst years were 2000-2008. Maybe god was sending a message?



Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:45 | 3026051 TIMBEEER
TIMBEEER's picture

Yes, he was telling us to get ready for the Prophet. And he came.


While Jesus only needed a few bread and fish to feed his followers, this Prophet is serious. He throws around FunnyMoney and ObamaPhones, food stamps and iCrap.


Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:45 | 3025291 Sauk Leader
Sauk Leader's picture

I think this should be a footnote in the chart. Federal Money for "disasters" starting in 1974. 

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:21 | 3025626 knukles
knukles's picture

Not only awareness but as more people populate the place more stuff gets reported, more folks live in dumb ass locales like flood plains where they get flood insurance....
Like when the Venerable Fearless British Explorers on Expedition arrived somewhere in what to be Burma in the 1899's they found areas along the ocean which seemed pristine, unpopulated, etc... which winds up having been decimated years earlier by a tsunami. (From ancient lore of the locals)
None of the dead locals who'd ever even heard of the Brits had the courtesy to report it to the London Times
Plus, all sorts of shit is now considered a disaster which used to be just another day in paradise.

Looks a bit like the IPCC hockey-stick shit to me....

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 09:39 | 3026206 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Like when the Venerable Fearless British Explorers on Expedition arrived somewhere in what to be Burma in the 1899's they found areas along the ocean which seemed pristine, unpopulated, etc... which winds up having been decimated years earlier by a tsunami. (From ancient lore of the locals)"

Same with New Orleans...a real head scratcher for the local injuns. The fact that its sinking into the muck will someday be promoted as localized "sea level rise" no

Tipping points ;-)

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:02 | 3025338 Glass Seagull
Glass Seagull's picture

Or a chart showing the increase in info and reporting technologies (along with more people in the world to witness/tweet these things).

GS is just trying to scare the S&P to their 1250 target during these last 20-odd days of 2012 trade.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:29 | 3025521 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

its a graph showing the increase in documenting natural disaters using graphs

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:52 | 3025571 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

I will see you all Dec 22, 2012.  Screw the Myans.  If they were so badass, why arent they still here?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:11 | 3025612 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

They are still here.

They just got tired of paying taxes and drifted off into the jungle.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:10 | 3025885 Hangfire
Hangfire's picture

I'd disappear into the jungle to if I had to play a game that's a cross between soccer and basketball without using your hands or feet.   

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:01 | 3026007 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

If you had to use your hands or feet, they had a special league for that. They had nerds too. That penis-piercing thing with the tailbone of a sting ray is what I couldn't handle.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 23:59 | 3025879 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

If you go to eastern/southern Mexico or Belize, you will find plenty of Mayans. They speak Nhuatl. I heard one their priests say the Western world has completely misunderstood the Mayan calender. Dec 21 does not mark the end of the world (he said), it marks the end of an age. It is not a day of disasters and nothing particularly unusual is expected to happen. However, it is a demarcation between a corrupt age that is dying and a new age that is coming to birth. He said the current powers that be will mightily resist the dying of the old age, and kill many people in an attempt to stave off the inevitable. They resist the necessary birth of the new era because it will mean the end of their power and wealth. When asked who these people are, he said "They are those who stand behind the great financials and corporations that wish to twist humanity to their own ends. The transition will be full of turbulence and peril. There is no guarantee that the forces for good will succeed in birthing the new era. If they fail, the world will enter a darker age."

I don't know much about it, but he didn't sound at all crazy to me. All I can tell you for sure is, the Mayans make a fantastic Cochinita Pibil. Those dudes know how to do slow roasted pork.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:50 | 3025996 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

The Mayans were reasonably decent astronomers and worked out the period of the wandering of the galactic center about the end of the world, just a decent watch.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:13 | 3026026 old naughty
old naughty's picture

They may very well be...

You said it, galactic...What's outside of the galaxy?

I often wonder how one reads from outside of the known confines of our galaxy, local universe, larger universes?

Imagine a stream of thoughts (signals) sent from somewhere far far far faraway, and yet landed in no 'time'?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:03 | 3026012 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

+10 Funny how people forget the Mayans knew solar & sun spot activity but entered into their own dark age.How did they know that?? In a word: Impossible. but they did. They question might not be what kind of age we will be entering but how they knew we were to enter an age such as this many years ago.

 Perhaps knowledge does not equate into morality over time. Perhaps their love of pork made them world connoisseurs of pork and suffered massive heart attacks from all the fat intake?

All I know is..something's up. Sup?



Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:57 | 3024930 MeanReversion
MeanReversion's picture

Except that the bible is steaming pile of horse manure.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:18 | 3025012 in4mayshun
in4mayshun's picture

"Whenever they are saying, 'Peace and Security,' then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them..." 1 Thessalonians 5:3 (refer the the UNited Nations website and look at the top left tab)

Matthew 24:1-51

2 Timothy 3:1-5

1 Timothy 6:6-10

If you would actually read the Bible you would find that it is much wiser than you are.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:32 | 3025751 pipelayer
pipelayer's picture

You are spot on in4, but you know 2 Corinthians 4:4 and on this site 2 Peter 3:3....but keep on preaching brother

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:21 | 3025968 ServingMyKing
ServingMyKing's picture

God was kicked out of government schools in 1962.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:53 | 3026003 MeanReversion
MeanReversion's picture

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

-Thomas Jefferson

Keep deluding yourself with fairy tales, you are only wasting valuable time in your ever ephemeral life...

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 06:01 | 3026126 thecoloredsky
thecoloredsky's picture

I tried fact checking your quote by TJ and could not confirm it.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:33 | 3025072 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

hahahahahahaha +100

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:54 | 3025137 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

Concidering the down votes you got, it's disturbing that still a very large percentage, even on ZH, believes in fairytales.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:02 | 3025157 imaginalis
imaginalis's picture

RNA World is a nice fairy tale

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:09 | 3025173 in4mayshun
in4mayshun's picture

I hate to tell you this, but the wealthy elites of the world believe in those so-called "fairy tales" as well; in fact they guide much of ther lives by the Occult and Satanic worship. It matters to no one that you don't believe it.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:11 | 3025363 Ballin D
Ballin D's picture

I blame the Masons

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:22 | 3025629 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

I blame the Assassins

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 23:24 | 3025830 magpie
magpie's picture

Nach Alamout gehen wir nicht

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 05:29 | 3026122 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

I blame the Hassassins

Eddie Izzard

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:40 | 3025431 fourchan
fourchan's picture

those with the mental affliction of religion will be the last to recognize they are fucked.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 23:10 | 3025806 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture



"Those" are distracted with arguments in regards to who cornholed them when they learned their affliction. 

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:37 | 3025757 pipelayer
pipelayer's picture

1 John 5:19

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:23 | 3026039 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

@in4...yup. Seems to be working for them too. Which logically means the opposite is also true. Funny how that works.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:49 | 3025294's picture

Although I don't believe in the Bible as literal truth there's still a lot of good stuff in that book. And why the slight against fairy tales? Children's stories remain a great way to see the folly of the world around us. Just consider the Emperor's New Clothes, The Goose That Laid the Golden Egg, The Ant and the Grasshopper and Henny Penny. That's really all you need to know to recognize the causes of the current crisis and to plot a solution as well.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:23 | 3025630 knukles
knukles's picture

Here here!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:12 | 3025886 Hangfire
Hangfire's picture

Don't forget the one about the 7 Chinese Brothers!  

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:13 | 3025888 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

I like The Little Red Hen: "Now, who will help me eat this bread?"

"I will! said the UAW. "I will!" said the SEIU. "I will!" said Jamie Dimon. "I will!" said Lloyd Blankfein. "I will!" said the Congressional Black Caucus.

"Like hell," said the Little Red Hen. "Alla you done sat around on yo asses an collected welfare while I did all the work.  All this bread are belong to me."

"I'm going to have to seize that bread under the National Defense Resources Preparedness Act," said Lord Obama.


"Okay, never mind", said His Highness.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:31 | 3025891 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

dup post

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:59 | 3026656 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

This is true, although I would suspect the great majority of people who downvoted the 'bible-as-horsedung' comment would likewise take great offense at being conflated with fairy tale stories. Because the problem with modern religion isn't the texts and stories; it's the fact that the pious take the texts so literally (especially with regard to 'chosen people' and 'one true gid' mumbo-jumbo). Which is why a comparative mythologist such as Joseph Campbell is so reviled in some religious circles.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:57 | 3025584 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

In the 2010 census:

90% of Americans believe in a God.

77% align themselves with some Christian belief.

Ask yourself where ALL the "good behaviors" come from.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:24 | 3025633 knukles
knukles's picture

The Muzzies?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:05 | 3026018 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Genuine Christianity is a hard road to walk, and takes a lifetime of effort to master if ever.  Don't judge those too harshly who are failing, they may still yet claim the prize.  

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:07 | 3026020 MeanReversion
MeanReversion's picture

Classic fallacious reasoning I.e., the fallacy of appeal to popularity. At one point in time people believed the world was flat as well, but that didn't make it any more true.

If you really believe good behaviours come from religion then you are really delusional. Although I will say religion does a good job of controlling the behaviour of those who can't think for themselves. As napoleon said 'Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich'

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:11 | 3025182 Whiner
Whiner's picture

"The fool hath said in his heart,'There is no God'".

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:57 | 3025480 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Fools despise wisdom and the folly of fools is deceit.  Forward!

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:01 | 3025485 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

The fool hath said in his heart "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no god'.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 23:13 | 3025814 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture


Keep whining; Whiner.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:10 | 3026022 MeanReversion
MeanReversion's picture

"Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool." - Mark Twain.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:24 | 3026040 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Excellent quote.

The con and the fool are irrelevant, its the "invented" that is worth exploring.

Who invented? For what purpose?

Until new invention cometh...

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:59 | 3025463 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

I wouldn't go that far, it does show us some history and some wise ideas (unfortunately also a lot of stupidity). It's not completely useless, just very overrated.


I too am somewhat surprised by the religiousity of the ZH visitor/member. I expected at least 75% to be non-religious. People are not truly free unless they are independent from both government AND religion.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:39 | 3025541 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

I don't think it means there is religiousity on ZH. If he had said (which he wouldn't) that any other religious book was a steaming pile of horse manure, in some places in the West he could be charged with a hate crime.  So his dig on the Bible was seen as just another cowardly stab at Christianity.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:44 | 3025927 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

In the West? Not in America. You can call any book of scripture whatever you want to.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:58 | 3026009 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

"In the West? Not in America. You can call any book of scripture whatever you want to."

Really?  I thought in America they just arrested and held without bail, the producer of that movie that didn't have anything to do with the "protests" in Bengazhi? 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:33 | 3025975 MeanReversion
MeanReversion's picture

Actually, the same applies to the Quran or any other major religious text. There is zero evidence that ANY fictitious deity exists. Consequently, said religious tomes are nothing more than a collection of fairy tales like Aesops fables or the Grimm fairy tales. Religious text have some value, as they provide us with some historical context of the time they were written, but the number of redactions, excisions, forgeries and insertions made over generations into the bible makes it wholly untrustworthy as a source, and especially a source to be taken literally.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:16 | 3026030 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

I'm guessing you're not laying on your deathbed as you write?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 06:40 | 3026133 knowless
knowless's picture

The human mind functions in predictable ways, because we are animals. Physiological emotional responses hold true across all humanity, a society can be developed by exploiting these responses Religion is no different than any other political, hierarchical structure. To believe otherwise is self delusion. On my deathbed the only afterlife i will retain is the memory of my actions to those that knew and witnessed me, that is better in my mind than a fallacious eternity of "pleasure" or "pain", as the two are so intertwined in the necessity for each other that they become a synonymous symbiosis.

Under torture i might recant my non faith but it would be nullified by The Truth.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:08 | 3027211 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

But you don't know the Truth about the afterlife.  No one does.  The Christian doesn't know.  We are all guessing. That's the part you guys seem to forget.  Some of us prefer to play it safe.  Others are more brave, i suppose. 


As far as exploitation, yes adherents are manipulated, and so are atheists.  I am devoted, but live outside of society's herd. 

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:43 | 3025766 pipelayer
pipelayer's picture

John 8:32

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 23:15 | 3025820 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture


8/32 is only a quarter of an inch. Kinda short john isn't it?

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 14:40 | 3028228 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pot, Hitler, Kim Un...all have been freed from religion. They promised to free everyone from government, too.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:17 | 3025504 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

One way to get rid of irrational nut jobs is to say something like "god is a cunt" and they will run from the room like a Ned Flanders waving their arms above their heads and screaming "it's the devil, it's satan himself". Fucking irrational nut jobs. The truly ironic thing is that every Christian should covet the armageddon because it's what their bible has prophesised. So, let me ask, are you looking forward to the distruction of the earth or not? Surely, you must be thrilled because it means you meet your god. I swear to fuck, if there is eternal life after death and I end up in the same place as my mother and sister law FOREVER then please god banish me to hell because it would be far more pleasant.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:24 | 3025513 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

. . . . . . oh and a truly ironic thing is that these suicide bomber crack pots are probably the most pious a human being can ever get in a sort of twisted and truly fucked up way because they really do believe they are going instantly to heaven. I mean, credit where credit is due, that is one ballsy conviction to make. Christians claim this bullshit of life after death but are quivering in their boots at the mere thought of death.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 20:53 | 3025572 Dr.Vannostrand
Dr.Vannostrand's picture

Brav-fuck-o to you sir! Great flow of consciousness in those couple of comments.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:08 | 3025711 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Actually BOA, most everything you said is incredibly shallow. I am presuming you think the irrational nut jobs are anyone who has any theology, except the theology of atheism.

What you expose more of is yourself and frankly your thinking is boring, typical, shallow, juvenile and dime-a-dozen thoughts.

I categorize atheists into two types. The first and most common type are what I call "typical atheists". They are actively anti-religious and hostile. They are universally shallow, hostile and generally egotistical. Their method is simple derision while assuming the superior. These types are easily recruited to totalitarianism for reasons I will not elucidate, by the way.

The second type with which I do not mind conversing are what I call "non-theists". They are similar to agnostics but have decided there is probably no god but do respect religions, religious people, theology and aspects of these that have contributed to the betterment of humanity. They are not insulting and are often rather thoughtful. Many have actually come out of in-depth studies of theology. I find that many of these may be libertarian atheists. I can even ally with them for the good of the temporal world.

Not sure which type is more common here at ZH, but the hostile type seem to make more comments, at least.

Fortunately, in my theology the Judeo-Christian God loves both which is good news. Don't think Allah is so charitable and Eastern gods seem rather neutral as enlightenment is pursued. Perhaps some ZH'ers of Eastern religions might add to this.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:46 | 3025774 alesarte
alesarte's picture

most obnoxious post I've read on zh. and in 4 years I've read a lot.




Fri, 11/30/2012 - 23:12 | 3025808 magpie
magpie's picture

Really ? It boils down the whole argument quite nicely.

I'll make it even shorter: Atheists by default assume religious people are stupid, while religious people assume Atheists are generally immoral. Both convictions can be easily disproven - how many in the natural sciences before the last century were out and out atheists ? And why do so many different religions and cultures strangely have similar social mores ?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:48 | 3025934 alesarte
alesarte's picture

You made it even more ignorant.  Generalizations are for lazy thinkers.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:52 | 3025990 magpie
magpie's picture

Ignorant...for not lauding a Ned Flanders reference ?

Oh to what has effete intellectualism come to. After reading Asteroids comment, i fail to see the differences to a tenpenny selfhelp pamphlet - deconstruct the ego already, 1980 called and wants its postmodernism back.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 04:39 | 3026100 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

That is really funny when you actually don't get it. There is truth to what he says and it goes back to human nature. Most people will conform their theology and belief systems to fit their actions. It you believe that then you would tend to assume atheists are at best amoral at worst immoral. That is logical once you remove any higher theological beliefs. There is no particular anchor against human nature. It is not a fair assumption to make when you meet a particular atheist as many will still carry much of the morality they have learned.

What history shows is there is some evidence for the immoral atheist. The most murderous and repressive regimes of all times are atheist, Soviet Union, Maoist China, Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and so on. They have two interesting distinctions. The fearless leader becomes a god so you have to read their little red books, listen to three hour speeches, salute the fuhrer, pay homage to "great leader' (NK) and see their statues on every corner. The second is they kill their own people en masse. That is very rare for classical monarchs. They usually kill and enslave the other "tribe". All the religiously based atrocities you can name pale in comparison, although muslims seem to be trying to catch up.

Once an atheist rejects all religions he presumes some superior knowledge. Therefore all people who believe in things the atheist cannot seem to detect must be fools. This also would be a bad assumption. Very often the religious person will have equal reasoning abilities if you give them any number of tests or match degrees or ask one to repair your car. The religioius person will tend to want overlook flaws and explain away bad behavior in their own religion, but it is actually much easier, at least for Western religions. I believe truth holds up over time so testing one's religion is a virtue, not a vice.

Generalizations, well thought out are not lazy. They are efficient and offer a starting point. Some may call them stereotypes. They save time but are often misapplied.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 05:23 | 3026119 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

Gawd, FreedomGuy, have you ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition (also known as the Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition). This has to be truly one of the darkest periods of human history and committed by none other than . . . . . wait for it . . . . . . drum roll please . . . . . . . CHRISTIANS. Not just the the dumb peasant christians but the holy office, the highest, the most moral, the closest to god.

Funny how christians always harp on about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot but happily overlook some of the greatest and truly horrific atrocities committed by those with a hotline to god. If bloody cathloic priests sodomizing children isn't bad enough then I don't know what adjectives to use when good, decent, respectable cardinals who would never lay a hand on a child, cover up the crimes and send the perpetrators away to commit more acts on more innocent children. Fuck the way human beings rationalise their fucking beliefs, it makes me sick to the stomach.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 07:42 | 3026159 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

"bring on" and others, who attack those who have faith: an old sufi saying.."do not cut down a tree that is giving shade."

as someone with a health and science backround..i find it sad that so many use science or systems that claim to be science (economics & psycology as examples) to attack faith.

if one looks at DNA for is clear DNA is information. the accepted science class says the DNA of simple bacteria was a result of chance : some form of energy (radiation) plus organic chemicals..and you get DNA or RNA ..

to understand the complexity: the old saw applies..put 1000 monkeys in a room with a 1000 type writers (ok mac pros) with unlimited time..and they will write war and peace. but my friends for it to apply to the creation of DNA you might want to add a factor of x to 50th or more..

the universe and life the very planet earth is proof of some design..where you take it from there is up to you.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:27 | 3026613 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Seriously BOA, I have heard of the Spanish Inquisition and many more religious oppressions. How many died? About 400 would be the high estimate. Was it oppressive? You bet. You give religious people power and it corrupts them, as well. How many countries did the same?  In Christianity we deal with the fallibility of all men, including clergy. Does atheism prevent dictatorships, sodomy and any other crime? It does not. So in what practical way is it superior? Does it een have a moral code to balance those? When sodomy is recongnized in the Catholic church does the Church defend it? Does it quote a Christian doctirne to justify it? It does not. It condemns it. Did everyone participate? No. Do you think these things occur in all societies everywhere? Yes. Which societies have doctrines and morals that prevail against it?

I will remind you that Spain was on the front line against Islamic conquests, as well. There were terrible bloody battles with the most violent and oppressive religion of modern times. Convert or lose your head was the basic deal. These were not times of bearded college professors in tweed coats sipping Earl Grey and arguing finer theological points. This was a time of swords, seiges, pestilence and death on every corner. This was a collision of two powerful religions deciding the fate of the West. What you and your sycophantic puerile atheists see is actually a romantic self serving view of the times. You claim to decry the abuses of the times yet your ideas bring more of the same measured in megatons. 

When I look at your beliefs and the Left in general, I will admit to a particular fault in myself. It is that I passionately despise your beliefs to the core of my being. I despise the foolish lies you tell yourself and the ridiculous constructs you make out of history. The way you analyze history is so self serving and arrogant that your are fools or truly motivated by something dark. You always bring darkness with you pretending to be prophets of enlightenment. Your ideas enslave and kill tens of millions...and then you call it "good". No one says that about any of the abuses you mention in Christianity, Judaism or even Western thought based upon those. I should probably be more charitable to the misguided souls like you, but I find myself more intolerant as I get older.

You can do the math any way you want. You cannot even get remotely close to the numbers killed within and the oppression of atheist societies. Compare the KGB, the political inquisitors of communism to anything in Spain. All communist countries are prisons with political inquisitors everywhere. Stalin authorized anyone to kill, rob and rape priests in the 1930's because he hated religious people, probably similar to you. Religion was a drug so priests were drug dealers. You could do what you liked to them. Stalin particularly hated Roman Catholics because they still held a Pope in higher esteem than him. I listened to a lecture by a Soviet defector and it was morbidly fascinating.

I do not know what we gain by trying to prove "Your bad is worse than my bad." But stand back and look at where people want to live and where people prosper and are happiest on this fallible planet. No one with an ounce of sense goes to an atheist country, not even you atheists. American Communists and leftists are all liars and charlatans because not a one of them gives up their wealth and moves to any communist country. In Western countries at least we prosecute bad priests, bad atheists and bad people in general because we have a moral code derived from the places you despise.

As a libertarian, I argue that there are bad people everywhere and you don't give them power over you. Even good people get corrupted by power. Power corrupts the Catholic church and only their doctrine puts any balance to it. It is insanity to believe that only good people get into government. Frankly, narcissists, sociopaths and egomaniacs are primarily the ones drawn to it like rats to cheese. That is in fact who generally works their way to the top.  I can ally policitally with a libertarian atheist but they are few and far between. They generally seem to put the State into that God-shaped void in their soul...and then the trouble begins.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:17 | 3026031 MeanReversion
MeanReversion's picture

Actually, I prefer to think of religious people as delusional. I too was at one time deluded. I had 12 years of religious instruction, was heavily involved in organised religion until I started doing the relevant research into how the major religious texts came to be (ironically, via university level theology courses about 15 years ago), mainly the bible. And if you are familiar with that history you come to realise, the bible cannot be trusted as a source.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:47 | 3026053 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Actually, I prefer to think of socialists as delusional.  And very religious in their beliefs.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 04:44 | 3026102 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Well said, Harbanger. Their promised utopia never quite arrives does it? Funny, it is similar to the atheists talking about the heaven, hell or Armageddon the religious person will never see in their beliefs.

Modern collectivisim is every bit as ferverent as any religion on earth with more evidence against it. They are damned mean when they take power in the extreme, as well.

Thanks for the wit and a good chuckle.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:04 | 3026017 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

Thank you

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:55 | 3025943 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

"My theology",My god", "My beliefs". EGOTISM in the purest form. The concept of god, I hate to say it, is nothing more than the ultimate extension of the human ego. We are so self centred, so full of fucking shit that we presume with all the self righteous entitlement that the so called creator of the universe gives a flying fuck what we do in our day to day lives and has an open line of communication with believers for their most trivial daily events. A christian living the high life in our privileged western democracy thinks god interacts and intervenes in their already perfect lives (by comparison) while a child is torn limb from limb in the jungles of the Congo or a child is forced at gun point to slaughter his own family (Maybe god hates black people while he can't spend enough time ensuring Suzie passes her HSC or Janes wedding goes oh so smoothly). Christian. Jewish and Muslim beliefs have to be called for what they are, a self indulgent fantasy where there is no bounds beyond which the ego can extend, even trascending space and time itself to communicate with the so called creator.

It is the "beliefs" that an atheist like myself attacks not the individual but a christian cannot see the diffrerence such is the infusion of ego at the expense of all logic, common sense, reflection on history and any ability at self deprecation. The ego cannot flinch, cannot admit flaws and cannot accept that it IS POSIIBLE that we are all dumb mother fuckers who have along way to go. The majority have at most 1 to 2 years extending their knowledge beyond the absolute basics and that is for the relative few who complete high school. Beyond which the majority never read another book, never absorb another fact and never even make any effort to extend their vocabulary. As Russell Bertand so presciently stated "Why is it that fools so sure of themselves and wise people so full of doubt". Ego is but one small part of the answer. It takes countless thousands of hours of reading before one begins to realise just how full of shit one is, how little one knows and how absolutely flawed ones mind is. Humans barely know how to think let alone what to think. Your gods exist, that is a fact, but only within the confines of the mind, the internal universe, which has the luxury of indulging thoughts and ideas that are not bound by the laws of physics, chemistry, mathematics or biology. The external universe, the one our brains find so difficult to interpret as reality does not pander to fantasy, whims, fairytales or superstition. It is indiffrerent to you, indifferent to me and will go on being for eons after humans have long gone.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:03 | 3026015 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Well done.

Permit me to add one point: we are in a gigantic lab, designed and created (yes, created, but not by the God most believed) for us humans to learn, to be ONE.

We are not learning very well, repeat...repeat...repeat...

How old Earth is...


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:28 | 3026042 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Bring on, you believe the world is an accident, and that also takes faith. 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 06:58 | 3026107 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

Oh no you don't Raymond Reason, don't tar me with the same affliction of "faith" as possibly you may/or may not suffer.

I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANYTHING because the very words "I believe" are utterly meaningless. I pursue information/knowledge in a process called learning but we are forever confined to the process, there is no arrival, no destination. Unless you're an arrogant cunt of course and think you're endowed with knoweledge via revelation.

Faith is a cop out buddy. It is for the intellectually lazy. The gullible. I would like the words "I believe" to be banished from the English language because those two seeming harmless words are nothing more than fodder for the dumb masses.  

What combination of words after the term "I believe" forms an invalid statement. THERE ARE NONE. As long as the sentence abides by the rules of the English language then any combination of words presumably forms a construct that cannot be criticised. Unless if you're a christian and the sentence is "I believe in Mohommed" or you are a Muslim and the sentence is "I believe jesus is the son of god".

I'd hate also to be the bearer of bad news but faith is an utterly invalid concept and can be proved so by simple deductive reasoning as you will understand and as your name suggests. Follow me with this it's very simple:

If "faith" is used to validate one belief

Then "faith" can be used to validate any belief.

Some beliefs contradict others, therefore some beliefs must be wrong.

With invalidates the first statement.


FAITH cannot be used to validate a belief, sorry you've had to learn this at such a late age but hell, we all had to eventually learn Santa doesn't exist. One day, maybe, the human race will mature and we will accept that we're on our own, that moral codes and conduct is something we use our cerebral cortex to define for the betterment of the human race. Fanciful bullshit on my part though I admit - we're just too fucking stupid.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:43 | 3026635 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

we're just too fucking stupid

You make a point that defeats your own arguement.  We are stupid, because we don't know everything...we simply do not know what follows phsical life.  Therefore noone can claim to have no faith.  You fool yourself to say you believe in nothing, it is impossible.  There is light or darkness, or vaying degrees of each.  If you claim light does not exist, you cannot claim that darkness does not exist also.  Sorry, but you do have faith.  You believe the soul does not exist.  You form your opinion with incomplete knowledge, as i form my opinion with incomplete knowledge.  We both practice faith. 

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 04:47 | 3027658 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

"we simply do not know what follows phsical life.  Therefore noone can claim to have no faith."

Utterly fallacious logic, I mean, it's not even logic. You're trying to combine two completely disconnected concepts. How do you jump from "not knowing what comes after physical life" to "therefore everyone must have faith". Faith in what?

What is this obsession with eternal life. Jeez, we humans are greedy mother fuckers.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 05:10 | 3026108 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

Oh no you don't Raymond Reason, don't tar me with the same affliction of "faith" as possibly you may/or may not suffer.

I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANYTHING because the very words "I believe" are utterly meaningless. I pursue information/knowledge in a process called learning but we are forever confined to the process, there is no arrival, no destination. Unless you're an arrogant cunt of course and think you're endowed with knoweledge via revelation.

Faith is a cop out buddy. It is for the intellectually lazy. The gullible. I would like the words "I believe" to be banished from the English language because those two seeming harmless words are nothing more than fodder for the dumb masses.  

What combination of words after the term "I believe" forms an invalid statement. THERE ARE NONE. As long as the sentence abides by the rules of the English language then any combination of words presumably forms a construct that cannot be criticised. Unless if you're a christian and the sentence is "I believe in Mohommed" or you are a Muslim and the sentence is "I believe jesus is the son of god".

I'd hate also to be the bearer of bad news but faith is an utterly invalid concept and can be proved so by simple deductive reasoning as you will understand as your name suggests. Follow me with this it's very simple:

If "faith" is used to validate one belief

Then "faith" can be used to validate any belief.

Some beliefs contradict others, therefore some beliefs must be wrong.

With invalidates the first statement.


FAITH cannot be used to validate a belief, sorry you've had to learn this at such a late age but hell, we all had to eventually learn Santa doesn't exist. One day, maybe, the human race will mature and we will accept that we're on our own, that moral codes and conduct is something we use our cerebral cortex to define for the betterment of the human race. Fanciful bullshit on my part though I admit - we're just too fucking stupid.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 04:47 | 3026104 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

You sound pretty sure of yourself, Asteroid.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 05:48 | 3026124 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

I'm not quivering in my boots, if that's what you mean, at the thought of god printing out these posts and reading them to me at the pearly gates, with that expression "Yeh right, you think you're coming in here after this".

It's a fantasy Freedom, one of the many periods in human history where the belief of the day was "the only" belief. It has been going on for millenia.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 07:58 | 3026157 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



A christian living the high life in our privileged western democracy thinks god interacts and intervenes in their already perfect lives ...

... and this "god" of theirs automatically forgives any sort of disobedient behavior because they've been "saved", they have their "get-in-heaven" pass safely tucked away.

They believe their "savior" just waved his hand and did away with every single rule their "god" ever made, they're free to do as they wish under some universal pardon called "grace".

Yep, they have the perfect "god", right there to help when they want it while ignoring everything he says.  

Yep, the perfect pocket "god".

Who wouldn't want a "god" like that?

Of course the bible they love thumping and throwing in everyone else's face plainly says they all screwed, not one of them will ever see "heaven".

Funny thing, they actually pride themselves on not knowing what's in that bible ...except a verse here and there they love throwing in other people's faces.

Christianity has got to be the most fraudulent religion on the planet.  No other religion on earlth has a diety who is completely ignored, doesn't have one single rule anyone has to obey, they've all been "done away".

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:40 | 3026627 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Have you even ever spent any time in any church or synagogue? What you say is so puerile. You have the understanding of an angry five year old. There is no such doctrine in Christianity that works the way you say. You don't even know a whit about the nature of God. Again, I say...with all that "fraud", the lies, fantasies and deceit, where do you choose to live? Where has science, art, and diversity of opinon flourished the most?

You are sooooo...typical! You are what I call the "typical atheist".

You are a know-nothing and you suppose yourself wise. Ask yourself in an accidental moment of self reflection where your ideas lead to looking at both history and the natural endpoint of your reasoning.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:38 | 3025982 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

Just to add,


The first group are loud mouths who not only run down god and religion but do not have a moral code above themselves.  They are their own god.


The second group think too much

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:07 | 3026021 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

<<Except that the bible is steaming pile of horse manure.>>

You've never been around livestock, have you?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:03 | 3024960 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

Arabdha Karma - Reaping what we sow.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:28 | 3025249 max2205
max2205's picture

Head and shoulders for all categories.... Go long property insurers

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:19 | 3025015 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

Book of Rev is 100 percent legit. Perhaps Not because god told em anything. But because its logical. The ancients knew humanity was going to wipe itself out, seeing people beating each other with clubs and what not.They also saw how powerful things like Eartquakes and tsunami's are, how disease could destroy cities firestorms could burn out forests and how men always figured out a way of using this shit against eachother. But to pull it off good and proper there would need to be lots of people and fancy technology and utter moral decay, so we could really cut loose unleash the worst shit imaginable. I don't buy that its 2012 though. still time to to go until the end..........Not with a bang but a whimper.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:51 | 3025303's picture

As an atheist I find the Biblical description of the mark of the beast to be astounding. A mark required to buy or sell located on the hand or forehead comes almost too close to biometric ID by fingerprint and retinal scan.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:52 | 3025458 css1971
css1971's picture

The bible is allegorical you'd probably have to have lived at the time to understand the references, even if they were well translated. Maybe some historians could work out who exactly the beast refers to. It's likely many years ago some dictator branded those who were loyal (or owned) as a form of identity managment. Only the owned being allowed to trade.

Human nature (the psychos at the top) doesn't change only the technology does. The question many are likely to face in the future is identical to the question faced by the ordinary people in the bible. Be free and possibly die or choose to live and be owned.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:54 | 3025466's picture

Yes, of course. Nevertheless...

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:54 | 3025781 pipelayer
pipelayer's picture

Amos 3:7, Matthew13:14-15

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:06 | 3025346 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Not that anyone here cares, nor do I about said carelessness, but a few points for you to ponder. The Book of Rev as legit - consider that the Apostle John wrote his Apocalypse as a ripe old man, outliving the other apostles because TPTB were unable to martyr him. Apocryphal stories have him surviving an attempted boiling, whereby the freaked out politicos had him exiled to the island of Patmos. If you can't kill 'em, disappear 'em. Didn't stop the vision from being recorded and disseminated though. Following that same thought, since Revelation describes a seven year period, whos to say the Mayans weren't maybe indicatiing the beginning of the end? I think Apocalypto was an incredible piece of film making, and Mel Gibson did not receive nearly enough credit for bringing that demonic society and its occult knowledge to light. Their accomplishments certainly were nothing like the inspiration of the Renaissance.   

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:13 | 3025372 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Oil peaked when?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:26 | 3025636 knukles
knukles's picture

abiotic peak oil?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:57 | 3025475's picture




John of Patmos is the name given by some modern scholars to the author of the Book of Revelation, the apocalyptic text forming part of the New Testament. The text of Revelation states that the author is called John and that he lives on the Greek island of Patmos, where by some, he is considered to be in exile as a result of anti-Christian persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian.[1][2] Traditionally, the John who is the author of Revelation is considered to be John the Apostle, author of all the Johanine works, that is the Gospel of John, the first, second, and third epistles of John, as well as Revelation. However, in the case of Revelation, many modern scholars agree that it was written by a separate, otherwise unknown, author, to whom they have given the name John of Patmos.[3][4]

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:41 | 3025732 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Actually, Magreb, what you say is correct even with the dose of dark humor you use. I like to go farther back in origins and call it the Judeo-Christian tradition in that mankind has a fallen nature and struggles against it mightily.

For me, it is why libertarianism with occasional gusts of classic anarchism makes sense to me. Man has a fallen nature. Power brings out the worst of the fallen nature. Therefore, do not give men, any men any more power than you have to. When you do, try to balance it against other men with power. This is the basis for the American government and Western governments, in general.

For you non-theists (see my definition above) this is why leftist-collectivist-socialist governments can seem to be "of the devil" to many Christians. It is the antithesis of the aforementioned beliefs and is a system where individuals conspire to make a god out of government and men. You might notice how virtually all dictators throughout all of time make themselves into some sort of god, particuarly the atheists like Mao, Stalin, Fidel, Kim Un, as well as ancient pharoahs and emperors.

Armageddon has complex meanings and I have studied it as much as most but it is certainly a final reckoning and the dawning of a new age of sorts. Whether it is more literal or more metaphorical, I am not sure but it does make sense on many levels. As for timing, Jesus said even he does not know the time, but when it does happen it will take everyone by surprise except for the astute observer.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:55 | 3025467 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

Human beings propensity to quote from books many hundreds of years old is truly fascinating. If it was possible to bring back to life all the people who had a part in writing these texts you would find that they would not even have the intellectual capability of a twelve year old. Mmmmm, maybe this has sonething to do with peoples need to provide links to songs."


"While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in 'tongues' may be all the evidence you need to 'prove' Christianity"

"You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old".

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:25 | 3025737 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

You could be correct, BOA. I am going to assume you are over 12. So, how about you write something more astounding than the combined religious works of Judaism, Christianity as well as great theologians like Augustine. Try to do it without a single insult, as well as that is rather classless.

Go for it, sir.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:49 | 3025776 freedogger
freedogger's picture

I'd be surprised if he came up with one paragraph.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:17 | 3025962 Divine Wind
Divine Wind's picture



2 Peter 3:3

"Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, ..."

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 23:53 | 3025873 magpie
magpie's picture

That should stop you from quoting Epicurus, Voltaire and the Marquis de Sade for instance.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 00:30 | 3025909 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

Interesting how BringOnTheAss has this intense distaste and contempt for books simply because they've been around a long time. Keith Richards has been around a long time, but that doesn't seem to spoil anything but his looks.

BOTA reminds me of an old quotation: "There are two kinds of fools. One says, This is old, therefore it is good. The other says, This is new, therefore it is better."

All of the ancient wisdom literature, whether Egyptian or Persian or Buddhist or whatever, says much the same things: Speak the truth. Material things do not make a life. Don't take what belongs to others. Treat your neighbor as you would be treated. And do not sit in the seat of the scornful, or walk in the ways of the ungodly.

None of that is popular today, hence Congress, banksters, and a nation of directionless fools without a firm conviction to stand on. Periscope down, prepare to submerge.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 01:39 | 3025985 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

FreedomGuy, freedogger, ImminentCrucible, I detect at least one of three things:

    1. Your beliefs lie in the abrahamic faiths

    2. Your ego's lie at the heart of your beliefs

    3. You are Americans

Funny thing is that America has one of the highest rates of religious belief in the western world and also export more weapons and arms than any other nation on earth. You couldn't make this shit up. I'd like to point out that your ancient texts are doing jack shit to improve the moral direction of the nation. JACK FUCKING SHIT. They don't work. If they did, I'd be all for it. They don't, now get on with life. You may as well quote Mark Twain, Bob Hope, Thomas Jefferson or Oscar Wilde. In fact if you are Americans you'd be better served trying to get the teachings of your founding fathers out there and the teachings of the great men who wrote your constitution, because Jesus is on the nose. Let's face it, moral direction is a lost cause but at least you guys should fight for your liberty.

There are many interesting religious thinkers such as Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Erasmus, William Law, Martin Luther just as there are many great philosophical thinkers, many great political thinkers, many great authors of history, science, anthropology, natural history and atheism.

But of all these disciplines why do people keep pulling these biblical quotes out of their ass and seem to think  . . . . . . . well I don't know what the fuck they are thinking. Enlighten me please. Why the hell are people obsessed with the bible, a book, a text that has been revised so many times that any bearing on true historical happenstance has been so far diluted as to render it at best an incoherent tiatribe that makes a few good points.

Why the obsession with the bible, why Jesus. Why not be obsessed by Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Aristotle, Ghandi. I'll tell you why, you've been indoctrinated from birth. You have no choice.





Sat, 12/01/2012 - 02:48 | 3026054 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Enlighten me please. Why the hell are people obsessed with the bible,

Well that's the point.  It is not the Christian's duty to sell you or anyone else on Christianity. You've heard the gospel, rejected it, and that is freewill....we all have it, slaves and masters. 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:11 | 3026672 smiler03
smiler03's picture

 "It is not the Christian's duty to sell you or anyone else on Christianity.


You could have fooled me. What do you call brainwashing children from birth with your beliefs? And missionaries, just giving away free beads to natives, on condition they listen to your twaddle?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:52 | 3027191 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Parents obviously teach children their personal values.

Evangelism is for the most part, an American protestant phenomenon, ostensibly to "present the gospel to the four corners of the earth", but actually just a money grab.   Tammy Fay, Jim Baker, Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, etc. are revolting characters who fleece a few pockets, but ultimately turn people away from Christ.

Would you have the world judge your life as an American based on the actions of the US military?   Don't judge Christians based on the actions of Christianity-American-style, or the atrocious history of the Catholic Church.    

Christ promised that corruption would not prevail against the church, and it hasn't.  But you are not looking at the real church.  The original church still exists, it is called Orthodoxy.  It doesn't evangelize, it doesn't judge.  But it does teach its ways to its children. 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 05:17 | 3026110 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I like Twain, Bastiat, Hayek, Friedman and recently sampling Mencken. There is wisdom to be found in many places.

If you think the moral compass of the nation is degrading would you say that America is more or less ferverent in their Christian beliefs than a few generations ago? Evangelical Christians tend to believe that with a different view of the cure.

I find it amusing that you assume a person named "FreedomGuy" might not be fighting for liberty. If I chose the moniker, MarxistGuy or something similar you might have a point. The founding fathers were geniuses and I place their works second only to scriptures themselves. In fact, you might find there are connections between the two. I think the founding of America was probably an act of God. I do not think it can happen again, not that liberty cannot arise somewhere else.

The truth is that none of us has time to study and read everything. We make choices. I chose my religion as my family was rather irreligious when I was young. I like Western religions because I find them rational, open to scrutiny/criticism and they paved the way for our civilization. I agree with Jesus in that you can tell a tree by it's fruit. Judeo-Christian teachings infused with Greek rationalism give us our current Western civilization. Atheism gave us communist societies. Hinduism with some Western influence gives us India and a caste system and so on. Those annoying Christians have created innumerable hospitals, orphanages, shelters and tolerance of a degree never before seen and still being perfected. Yes, there are ugly points as real people practice the religion but it is a net good. I see no such things from atheists, just verbal claims that they are morally equal and just as virtuous and don't need invisible spacemen or fairies or something else insulting to be so.

I also believe in an absolute external truth that is discoverable in the main. Like the empiricists such as Hume, Locke and others I believe that whlile men may not know all truth they can recognize it when it is presented. As a libertarian, this gives me great hope even as I watch the world flush down the collectivist toilet.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 07:45 | 3026160 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

Well then maybe FreedomGuy you aren't too far from the mark. The founding fathers of your once great nation were men so far ahead of their time, whose forethought was so astounding that by even todays standards they would wipe the floor with the combined membership of your congress. But I point out, to put the "scriptures" ahead of the teachings of these polymaths is terribly misplaced. The scriptures as you call them are a hotch-potch of the most horrible evil, the ramblings of uneducated tribesmen but does, occasionally, have worthwhile lessons for the then savages of humanity. Point out to me the parts of the US constitution, for example, that are evil, that are the ramblings of fools . . . . . . . . you'd be hard pressed sir.

To accept the bible as your guiding rule book, you can't cherry pick the good bits my friend, you either accept it as it is, all 62 books or you abandon it as a bookmark in history.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

I expect you FreedomGuy and any and all other christians who profess the bible as their moral compass to kill me - your god demands it. Do not shirk, do not change the subject, do not cheery pick, the bible is the word of god.

YOU SEE - UTTER BULLSHIT. You would no sooner harm a fly as a person, is your character as I judge from your writing. You need courage at first to be able to utter the words "the bible is bullshit" because you as many other people have been trained to fear god - mind you the above quotes put the willies in me, I might sleep with teddy tonight.

It is a wonderfully liberating experience not to fear.

It is a wonderfully liberating experience to be able to perform a charitable act knowing that there's absolutely nothing in it for you. No fast track to heaven, no browny points with jehovah, no 72 virgins, not even a pubic hair from a fleas dick.

It is wonderfully liberating to be able to feel equananomous about life, about consiousness, about love knowing that it eventually ends forever.

It is wonderfully liberating to stand apart from the crowd as they fight each other to death over who's god is the right god and feel at peace in the knowledge that I haven't got a fucking clue what any of this means.

Try it, if you change your mind I think a christian god will forgive you. Muslims, maybe not, allah is one grumpy SOB. Not sure about the jews, you better seek the advice of a rabbi.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:44 | 3026348 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

"you can't cherry pick the good bits my friend"

No, indeed. You have to take the whole pudding. But you'll get nothing from reading the Egyptian Book of the Dead if you don't take the time to understand the root culture and the context. I notice that all your "Bible is Atrocious" quotes come from the Old Testament. A testament is a will, and an old will is voided by a new will.

For example: Exodus 31:15 commands that a Sabbath-breaker must be put to death. (Note that this law applied only among the Hebrew nation; they were not enjoined to enforce the Sabbath against the gentiles around and among them.) Yet, Colossians 2:16 says flatly, "Don't allow anyone to judge you over whether you even keep a Sabbath or a holy day".

In the New Testament (covenant) the old law was set aside, thusly: "If you wish to enforce the death penalty for capital sins, go ahead. But it must be done by one who is without sin." Which excluded everyone.

Actually, I'm not religious and don't care much for religion and its trappings. The formal, organized churches have failed. They took the lazy route of settling for the letter, instead of the hard task of seeking the spirit of their faith.

However, I do value liberty. Fight for it? Liberty is not something you fight for. That route only exchanges one tyrant for another. The key is in the lock. You need only turn the key, swing open your cell door and walk free.  But it's high, and cold and often lonely out here. You have to be prepared for that. And don't deceive yourself; there can be no liberty without morality. The immoral person is always--always--a slave to his appetites and his fears. It must begin with integrity. There is no other way.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:33 | 3026653 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I will also add that the Old Testament with it's myriad laws including rituals was in general to prove the impossibility of man living up to the "law" In essence, man cannot perfect himself and the Old Testament laws were the essential full-penalty versions of what sin (right and wrong)would earn. The New Testament was in essence the solution to the Old Testament where God fully reconciles man to himself. Man and God become partners in the journey on this earth...if the individual man chooses to do so.

I think the most beautiful scripture in the new testament is when Jesus said (I will paraphrase) that all Judeo-Christian theology hung upon two tenants: Love God with all that you are and love your neighbor as yourself.

God is the source.  Our neighbor...even the unbelieving one is our brother in the creation. Practicing this truth would transform the entire world. You cannot do evil to those whom you love and 99% of all pain in this world is caused by people to people.

Frankly, these ideas are like fingernails on a chalkboard to the average atheist as they see themselves and Man as the measure of all things. They also do not realize that God sees both death and life very differently than we do as temporal beings. I say look at the fruits of varioius beliefs around the world. If you could be a neutral observerer where would you choose to live and where do people choose to live? Do not muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists, and even ardent atheists choose to live in the West (sometimes dieing to get here) countries with Christian heritage? They do and they do not fear any oppression in the least.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:24 | 3026695 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

I'm not much of a theist. When any one looks at the at the brutality in the Old Testament and the Quran it is hard not to be appalled. At the same time though having been to places that are on the edge of civillization you start to understand where these rules come from. There is no room for error. Do you think they had the resources to put people in prison? Do you think if that concept existed someone wouldn't decide to just put everyone in prison? Do you think if disputes broke out and were not ended quickly blood feuds wouldn't emerge? You think those rules of that God are harsh, so do I but I've seen how harsh men can be to each other and the misery that comes with it. There are worse things than someone being put to death. That god that created those rules, dictatorial, violent and harsh laws seems to know an awful lot about humanity at its lowest.

Middle class westerners don't seem to see in some places there would not be the energy to enforce modern laws. Shariah is far far more effective for running a tribe in the Hindu Kush. Centuries ago most the whole world was like this.What worries me most is I don't think we are passed this. Sure we don't put people to death for adultery and homosexuality. But you've heard the stories about our millitary and our financial system, without which we would not be able to keep our way of life going. The man made diseases, the nuclear weapons, the drugs being fed to masses, the lies being told. We'll fire missiles at milk factory just to distract the public from a sex scandal. King David did something similar so he could carry on doing someones wife. General Petraeus with his CIA drone army was brought down by some Delilah type last month. The worlds still Old Testament your just choosing not to notice.

Look at the Israeli's fighting Sargon/Saddam,the Philistines and the Persians no less. Same shit different millenia

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:53 | 3026752 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Well reasoned, Magreb. I like your first line, "I'm not much of a theist.". This shows some humility and honesty as we reason through these things. When I am balanced I like to use phrases such as "It appears to me..." or "As I understand it". You are the kind of person I could have an interesting discussion with over coffee or adult beverages. Thanks for your posts.

Here is my theory on the brutality of the Old Testament. It was written in brutal times for brutal men where death and pain were common unlike today. Your Hindu Kush statement seems to be a similar observation to me. Note the headlines this very day about a 14 year old girl beheaded for refusing to marry a guy in Afghanistan. Similarly a young girl had her throat cut for refusing to go into prostitution (also punisheable by death under Islam). Let's say you were a wandering Jewish tribe even this very day in 2012 and you tried to move into this area. Do you suppose reasoning over tea will get you anywhere with these people? Seriously. If they behead their own daughters what would they do to an evil Jew? Let's ask Daniel Perl.

So God was dealing with peoples who were about 5 years old in reasoning ability and spiritual development. They also happened to be vicious, brutal and homicidal. They were also a very "randy" lot. So, we look at it with a long long long line of theological development including more revelation. I actually think it is good that we are taken aback by some of it. Do you think the average stone age Imam in the Middle East is horrified if they read the Old Testament? I think they are not and would still approve those methods.

This is my theory and perhaps someone more theologically astute or better trained might answer.

I will add that what I really love about Christian scripture and in particular the Old Testament is that virtually all the main characters are real men and women. They have serious flaws and weaknesses and are not particuarly supernatural or superhuman. They have virtues mixed with flaws. David was a man "after God's own heart" who wrote psalms and yet committed murder and adultery even though he alread had ten wives. His children even got worse.  These were real people with real lessons for us.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:16 | 3026789 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I also forgot to mention, that I view the Koran as an attempt to simply copy parts of the Old Testament and parts of the New to the new religion Mohammed was starting. Mohammed started his life heavily influenced by Jews and Christians and actually seemed to like them. He was even protected by the Christian king of Ethiopea when driven out of Arabia. When the Jews and Christians failed to support his uprisings and military conquests he turned on them...violently but he copied portions or maybe some of the style of those religions and made himself a prophet. He converted the pagan center at Mecca to his new religion.

I do not view Mohammed as prophet nor do I follow Islam. I think it is bad facsimile of Old Testament type religion by a very worldly guy. I mean, 72 virgins...really?!? There is nothing like this nor the prophets of Islam anywhere in Judaism or Christianity. There are no warrior prophets who marry kids, rape, pillage and focus heavily on "worldly" things. The disciples of Jesus never went out to advocate military conquest and earthly kingdoms bent on subjugation. Even the Jews who had a few kings did not do this. 

What is even more fascinating is that Arabs and Jews both descend from Abraham and their never ending conflict was predicted. Half brothers showing the bitterness of a family feud.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:53 | 3027083 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

Have to agree, Magreb. Old Testament Law is harsh. I don't much like it.  But....

I went down to Haiti with a group of volunteers to work on a clinic for poor Haitians (almost all of them are poor). I was sitting in the back of a van in Port-au-Prince while the driver told us to keep our wallets in our front pockets to avoid the "razor boys". Lepers were sticking their fingerless palms in the windows, begging.

I heard a tapping noise on the back of the van. Turning my head, I saw a tiny, frail, ancient Haitian grandmother tapping with her cane, trying to get our attention. A Haitian guy about 40 walked up to the woman. Looking annoyed at her, he seized the cane from her hand and struck her a powerful blow across the chest. She doubled over in pain, agony across her face, weeping silently. I know he broke several of those thin, fragile ribs. He threw her cane down by her and walked away.

I'd never seen anything so casually brutal or disrespectful of age. "Unbelievable," I thought. "We are definitely not in Kansas anymore."

If you go to Haiti or northwest Pakistan or the worst parts of Milwaukee, you will hear and see things that will sicken you. These places are not nearly as bad as, say, the Canaanites who had a habit of throwing their babies into a furnace to curry favor with Moloch. When you find out about the brutality, the routine rapes and murders and torture, suddenly the harshness of OT law takes on a different aspect.

Like I said, I don't much like it, but.....

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:17 | 3025205 zapdude
zapdude's picture

Is the 'others category' when you Shart your pants?

I believe that actually falls into the "Gamble & LOSE" category.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:29 | 3025639 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

When it happens, and it will, you will be glad you are strapped in to your man-diaper.  Think of it:  The bad news hits.  Everyone around you soils themselves, literally.  But not you!  You are protected!  You are walking around like the King of Siam!  People think you have inside information.  That's when the fun starts...


Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:46 | 3024875 CH1
CH1's picture

And we're defining "natural disaster" how?

Floods, hurricanes and earthquakes continue as they always have. What changes is how we freak out because of them.

Try not to over-respond to fear.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 16:56 | 3024925 CClarity
CClarity's picture

The Fed and DC Pols and EU finmins would like to categorize the financial crisis as "natural" though we all know how MANufactured it was/is by TPTB.  

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:00 | 3024943 mdtrader
mdtrader's picture

And humans have built a bunch of houses along coasts and on flood plains.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:53 | 3025312's picture


Look out for Mother Nature. She can be a bit testy.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:10 | 3025358 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

"They" ... people ... didn't used to do that.  They knew not to build where floods were.  They knew nobody was going to bail them out if they built it and it got leveled.

Bring back moral hazard

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:14 | 3024993 rodocostarica
rodocostarica's picture

Having experienced 20 or more earthquakes and actually enjoying the thrill of them and then experiencing the 7.6 we had Sep 5th here I can certainly  tell you that freaking out was a a normal reaction. Why not try on of those for size before advising not over respond to fear.

Not that I believe this Mayan scare shit but I can say I will be a bit worried around the end of the December.


Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:33 | 3025069 tbd108
tbd108's picture

Don't blame the Mayans for the scary nonsense. They never said any such thing.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:07 | 3025341 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

The Mayan calendar is off by only 2 days.  December 23, 2012 is the end of the 99 year contract between the Fed and the US.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 21:27 | 3025638 knukles
knukles's picture

Fiscal Cliff!

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 17:20 | 3025019 Mister Ponzi
Mister Ponzi's picture

By "flood" they mean extraordinary central bank actions?

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:17 | 3025210 Random_Robert
Random_Robert's picture

"Try not to over-respond to fear."

Absolutely.  I'm floored when people call "natural disaster" what I simply call "nature"


Human hubris is the ultimate tool of social destruction.


And yet, so many refute the ancient books for their rationalization that evil is simply hubris on steroids.



Long sanity , Short intellectual retardation.

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 22:27 | 3025742 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Are you kidding? This is a political opportunity. It is all due to global warming. Sending more taxes and granting more power to your government will directly correlate with lower surface temperatures. Nothing to fear. Just elect a leftist and all will be well.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 07:50 | 3026164 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

I think everyone is off the mark. There's too many god damned people on the face of the earth so every time mother nature so much as farts, there's another 100,000 people to push up daisies.

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