This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Ron Paul: "Why I Don't Run As An Independent"

Tyler Durden's picture


Many have wondered if Ron Paul would have run as an independent. Here is his answer: "[I didn't consider running as an independent because] it is absolutely not practical. This would have been a good year to have an alternative and you can't get much of a showing either on the libertarian side or the green side".... the Republican and Democratics "parties are going to linger because they are locked in by law. The laws are biased against us from competing." So how does one change the two-party system? "You go to the campuses. You rally the young people. You stir up a whole generation of people. Ideas do have consequences and that's where the good news is because the campuses are alive and well with these views and they know the system is bankrupt. And there is this illusion that you can spend endlessly and print endlessly and there will always be credit out there. And so far, so good, but credit can end quickly, the dollar can crash quickly and a new system will have to be developed."

And some parting words on one of Ron Paul's favorite topics: Freedom, or at least the myth thereof:

"The concern about freedom was lost because Freedom creates so much prosperity. People get complacent, then they become materialistic. They find the government: you can make more money by getting a contract from government, than being a genius and being productive. When I first came here in 1976 I was under the impression that if you talk about welfare you talk about those people who won't work and get foodstamps. But have a completely different opinion now: that exists and it's not healthy, but that's minor compared to the "foodstamps" the wealthy get. The wealthy get the contracts and the special deals and that's where the biggest turmoil is." On the future of the Republican and Democrat party: "the parties are going to linger because they are locked in by law. The laws are biased against us from competing.

Full clip:


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Sat, 12/01/2012 - 09:53 | 3026216 Aziz
Aziz's picture

Tree of liberty, bitchez.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 09:55 | 3026222 Mae Kadoodie
Mae Kadoodie's picture

Young people are Zombies.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:02 | 3026231 Atlas_shrugging
Atlas_shrugging's picture

Campuses are indeed alive and well with alternative views...they are also overridden by status quo ivory tower shmucks and debt zombie kids who have already been brainwashed in school before college how to think...correctly

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:40 | 3026271 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

OT: breaking the taboo on war on drugs:


Jones on JPM ads for the drugged on turkey sheeple holidays:


“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” -
Thomas Jefferson


I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing
power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

—Thomas Jefferson, 1802

“Paper is poverty,… it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself.” –Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1788.

“Experience has proved to us that a dollar of silver disappears for every dollar of paper emitted.” -Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1791.

“The trifling economy of paper, as a cheaper medium, or its convenience for transmission, weighs nothing in opposition to the advantages of the precious metals… it is liable to be abused, has been, is, and forever will be abused, in every country in which it is permitted.”–Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813.

“Scenes are now to take place as will open the eyes of credulity and of insanity itself, to the dangers of a paper medium abandoned to the discretion of avarice and of swindlers.” –Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814.

“It is a cruel thought, that, when we feel ourselves standing on the firmest ground in every respect, the cursed arts of our secret enemies, combining with other causes, should effect, by depreciating our money, what the open arms of a powerful enemy could not.” –Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, 1779.

“We should try whether the prodigal might not be restrained from taking on credit the gewgaw held out to him in one hand, by seeing the keys of a prison in the other.” –Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Pleasants, 1786.

“That we are overdone with banking institutions which have banished the precious metals and substituted a more fluctuating and unsafe medium, that these have withdrawn capital from useful improvements and employments to nourish idleness, that the wars of the world have swollen our commerce beyond the wholesome limits of exchanging our own productions for our own wants, and that, for the emolument of a small proportion of our society who prefer these demoralizing pursuits to labors useful to the whole,
the peace of the whole is endangered and all our present difficulties produced, are evils more easily to be deplored than remedied.” –Thomas Jefferson to Abbe Salimankis, 1810.

“The banks… have the regulation of the safety-valves of our fortunes, and…condense and explode them at their will.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1819.

“I sincerely believe… that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816.

“The incorporation of a bank and the powers assumed [by legislation doing so] have not, in my opinion, been delegated to the United States by the Constitution. They are not among the powers specially enumerated.” –Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Bank, 1791.

“It has always been denied by the republican party in this country, that the Constitution had given the power of incorporation to Congress. On the establishment of the Bank of the United States, this was the great ground on which that establishment was combated; and the party prevailing supported it only on the argument of its being an incident to the power given them for raising money.” –Thomas Jefferson
to Dr. Maese, 1809.

“[The] Bank of the United States… is one of the most deadly hostility existing, against the principles and form of our Constitution… An institution like this, penetrating by its branches every part of the Union, acting by command and in phalanx, may, in a critical moment, upset the government. I deem no government safe which is under the vassalage of any self-constituted authorities, or any other authority
than that of the nation, or its regular functionaries. What an obstruction could not this bank of the United States, with all its branch banks, be in time of war! It might dictate to us the peace we should accept, or withdraw its aids. Ought we then to give further growth to an institution so powerful, so hostile?” –Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1803.

“If the debt which the banking companies owe be a blessing to anybody, it is to themselves alone, who are realizing a solid interest of eight or ten per cent on it. As to the public, these companies have banished all our gold and silver medium, which, before their institution, we had without interest, which never could have perished in our hands, and would have been our salvation now in the hour of war; instead of which they have given us two hundred million of froth and bubble, on which we are to pay them heavy interest, until it shall vanish into air… We are warranted, then, in affirming that this parody on the principle of ‘a public debt being a public blessing,’ and its mutation into the blessing of private instead of public debts, is as ridiculous as the original principle itself. In both cases, the truth is, that capital may be produced by industry, and accumulated by economy; but jugglers only will propose to create it by legerdemain tricks with paper.” –Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813.

These international “banksters” finally succeeded in 1913 with the passage of the Federal Reserve Act. This bill, previously orchestrated by Nelson Aldrich, was soundly defeated under President Taft. In order to defeat Taft, the banking community backed Woodrow Wilson, and, to ensure his victory, encouraged ex- President Teddy Roosevelt to run again in order to siphon votes from the popular Taft. Wilson won by 42%, then slipped the Act through a bare quorum of Congress on December 23, 1913 after most of the opposition had gone home for the holidays.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:51 | 3026362 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

I junked you for the thread-jack.

Tho, it's prolly better to read your post than some inane blather about Ron Paul's credibility. Go to the campuses, indeed... what a laugh.

How many millions has Ron Paul collected for his own private use from people who want to believe? He sells his own brand of snake oil.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:36 | 3026420 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

I nuked you for being total nihilist and overall douchebag.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:07 | 3026447 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

Lol... 'nuked' - I like it. Good on you for at least owning it. :)

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:47 | 3026743 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"Campuses are indeed alive and well with alternative views...they are also overridden by status quo ivory tower shmucks and debt zombie kids who have already been brainwashed in school before college how to think...correctly"


I made it to Paul's Michigan State rally leading up to the primary.   My wife and I were among the older attendees.   The crowd, as you'd expect, were mostly students.

Although they obviously did NOT have opinions typical for their age group....they got it.   They know they're screwed.   And although they're racking up debt at the same rate as their peers (and will probably default on it at the same rate as their peers given the economic realities), there is a percentage of young people who want their country back.   Not the "I'm entitled to whatever I say I want" fantasy of America shared by most of their peers, as surveys show.   But a country that doesn't hand them an extra $1.5 trillion in new debt every year in exchange for the votes of the entitled.

It was both an interesting and a sad experience.   I wish them all the best of luck.   They will need it.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:48 | 3026858 ArsoN
ArsoN's picture

Recently spent a little time on couple of college campuses picking up 19 year old girls a grad degree.  Really felt like the mainstream doesn't quite appreciate how much support Ron Paul gets in that age group.  It's not just the legalize marry-j crowd either (although they're there too).  Saw plenty of type A personality worker bees types with plenty of interest in politics.

It seems that once someone really understands the libertarian point of view it tends to stick.  Will be interesting to see what happens 4, 8, 12 years from now.  

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:59 | 3027310 Transformer
Transformer's picture

New York times calls Jefferson


The Monster of Monticello

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:45 | 3026496 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

You are incorrect.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:21 | 3027436 SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

"Tho, it's prolly better to read your post than some inane blather about Ron Paul's credibility."

I'm sure you would have, and are doing so much better than Paul did and is going to do.../s 

Paul aint perfect.  But we can only play the hand we're dealt.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:15 | 3026527 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

Bill Clinton speaking against The war on drugs...Is that like Al Capone speaking against the Volstead act? Having the president of Coke in a film on drugs prohibition. Wow. Bill the shill, what a confidence man.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:39 | 3026552 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

...who "did not inhale." At least thats the line we were fed when he was campaigning. He's got an angle on this for sure.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:56 | 3026576 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

He's got an angle allright...He's also got more skeletons in the basement than the fucking Vatican. The (aledged) bodycount and kilos in transit from his days as the Gov. of Arkansas is pretty impressive.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:30 | 3026712 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

 @ vast dom

"The major fruit of the Norman [Gov. BOE _1918-28?; worked at Brown Brothers/Wall Street Firm// later to merge with Harriman,ie. #41 & #43 family ties?], and Strong [Gov. N.Y. Fed.: Ny Fed controls the Central Bank, period!; ~1913-1928;deceased/ J.P. Morgan puppeteer?] collaboration was Strong's being pressured to inflate money and credit [J.P.Morgan & Co. in 1914 had secured priority of being the sole fiscal agents' for the warring British and French Gov't., ...virtually monopolizing the underwriting for their war bonds in the United States- besides the central authority of organizing and channeling war purchases for the two Allied nations] in the U.S. throughout the 1920's in order to keep England from losing gold to the U.S. from its inflationary policies.  Briton's predicament came from its insistence on going back to the 'Gold Standard' after the war at the highly overvalued pre-war par for the pound, and then insisting on inflating rather than deflating to make its exports competitively priced in the world market. Hence, Britain needed to induce other countries, particularly the U.S., to inflate along with it.  The Strong-Norman connection did the job, setting the stage for the great financial collapse of 1929-31."

Note:  This current scenario is playing out in the world today... in particular the U.S. and U.K.! There's a tightly woven political collaboration today... since its inception, beginning in 1913 at Jekyll Island and including pre-WW1 too the present day [jmo].

Ps. I'd like to thank you Vast-Dom for all the labor you put in your comments :-))

Important: From "Wall Street, Banks, and American Foreign Policy" by Murray N. Rothbard... this quoted paragraph is from pg 16; Sect: 'The Fortuitous Fed'

thankyou Tyler 

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 02:03 | 3027582 piliage
piliage's picture

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” -
Thomas Jefferson

 I don't know where you found this quote, but it certainly isn't Jeffersonian. It doesn't sound like anything he would write, he is far more articulate than that. There are a lot of BS bumper sticker soundbites being ascribed to the founding fathers, duping people on the internet. Jefferson didn't write slogans, and this sounds like five or six of those strung together.

This is a quote by Jefferson from his letter to John Taylor. The letter is fantastic, as it also lays out Jefferson's reasoning behind a republic, and the impracticality of direct democracy in America.

"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale"




Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:05 | 3026382 Jayacts
Jayacts's picture

Not me.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:07 | 3026494 caconhma
caconhma's picture

You people are not very bright. There is no way the present political system/environment can be changed and/or modified by talking and talking and talking.

Look at Ron Paul. Did he achieve anything except some excitement on a few websites? No. He is gone and forgotten.

The political system that kept him feeding at the government trough for the last 30 years just got rid of him. All these primaries were bogus. The owners of this country just conducted another public show making people to believe that they have a choice. Well, they don’t. Ron Paul was another actor (even if he thought differently). This is all. He never had a prayer of being elected or for this matter being heard by millions.

The present political situation in America is simple: the political system is utterly corrupt and the economy is going down a toilet. We are just following Greece, Spain, Italy, etc.,  What will be next? More military adventures and more military & economic failures with economy started to disintegrate and collapse. Then there will be infightings inside the owners of this country and this will be the real thing. What will follow? Nobody knows but it will be brutal and bloody. Very bloody.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:10 | 3026586 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

I love people who have gotten so old they forgot what it was like to be young.


May I never become so crochety and amnesiac.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:35 | 3026724 Contemplate_
Contemplate_'s picture

I can't say your pessisism is undeserved. But hold out a little hope. I am a young college student and I am aware of the matrix my parents and most of my generation live in. But for every leader, there are legions of followers.

It is up to us young champions of liberty to wake up our fellow humans and articulate our cause properly. I am doing that, and I know others are too. The enlightened will rebuild a world that cherishes freedom, responsibility, and compassion. There will be great obstacles to overcome, and many minds to change, but I swear to you it will be accomplished.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:55 | 3027396 juangrande
juangrande's picture

"young people are zombies"... by design!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:55 | 3027397 juangrande
juangrande's picture

"young people are zombies"... by design!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 09:58 | 3026226 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

The republican party is done. The democrats are enjoying their time in the sun and will most likely be in power when everything comes crashing down. At that point either some semblance of a group of reasonable people will form a new party and we can start over or it's the dark ages again.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:11 | 3026246 machineh
machineh's picture

The democrats are enjoying their time in the sun and will most likely be in power when everything comes crashing down.

Hey, it worked for George W. Bush. He even got re-elected after everything came crashing down.

Worked for Clinton too [WTC round 1 and OKC].

What'll our imaginative leaders demolish this time?

So much infrastructure, so little time! ;-)

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:14 | 3026251 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The Grand Old Party was done a long time ago..."Read My Lips".

You cannot bargain in good faith with known thieves...this latest MSM driven tripe is an example. Why are we talking about a "fiscal cliff" in terms of a tax on "the rich" which will amount to 70-80 billion a year when the annual deficit ALONE is over a trillion?

Look!!!...over there!!!...its a shiny penny!!!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:17 | 3026255 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

You said a few weeks ago nmewn 'lets just call the whole thing off". I am in complete agreement. this mess is too big. I almost trust no one to come in and clean it up.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:36 | 3026283 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I trust no one currently in DC to clean up anything.

Let it burn...its very cleansing ;-)

And on that cheery note, I'm going to hang up Christmas lights.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:22 | 3026322 centerline
centerline's picture

Damn.  That reminds me I have to do the same thing tomorrow.

As far as RP is concerned, he never expected to win.  Not a chance.  He knows the system is going to break and wanted to leave a legacy of having pointed it out.

I am a RP fan, but I will probably get bashed for this...

If RP really challenged the status quo in a dangerous way, he would have been out... one way or the other.  So, he played within the boundaries.  His position is something that could give the Republicans credibility at some point depending on how the game goes down.  Following in this train of thought, RP has voiced his opinion quite strongly about "sound money" (whatever that is) and opposition to the FED.  Since I am a believer that the FED was built to be dismantled, RP's serves purposes for both himself and system.  The truth being stranger than fiction, nothing suprises me anymore.  "What a tangled web has been woven" is a analogy that comes to mind.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:03 | 3026376 koncaswatch
koncaswatch's picture

+1 centerline : "...he played within the bounderies".

Those that complain that RP "never did anyting" or "never accomplished anything" miss this entirely. He was  efficacious; we will see the results after the collapse in the form of a group of knowledgeable people driving the subsequent reform.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:45 | 3026639 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

RPaul did some of his work behind the scenes, on behalf of his party, whether acknowledged or not.

that he also spent a lot of time rallying the "youth vote" could be seen in many ways, including setting up the future voters to rally round the Rand when the time comes.  he was always in it for the long haul, baby steps along the way.

brand name, that's how the corporations work isn't it?  get 'em young.

if he "woke up" some people along the way, as many here say they feel he did, then great - just don't sit back and think you know the whole game - Paul shows clearly he's a team player, so keep thinking, keep your minds open, and keep learning - if you truly want to know what's up in this system, don't take sides within it!

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 02:31 | 3027601 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Although there is not a lot of legislation with his name on it I think he has had major influence on the platform and the debate withing the Republican party. He is the "outlier" in the Rebublican party but every other candidate feared his enthusiastic followers and the chastisement contained within his messages.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 18:13 | 3028488 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

as long as you include the caveat "within the Republican Party" then yes, I agree with you.

he's been excellent at keeping his flock inside the pens. . .

The Story of Your Enslavement


the final words should resonate.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:35 | 3026826 Charles Bishop ...
Charles Bishop Weyland's picture



Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:36 | 3026827 Charles Bishop ...
Charles Bishop Weyland's picture



Sun, 12/02/2012 - 02:18 | 3027593 piliage
piliage's picture

How soon people forget that bill clinton didn't win because of the republican's implosion, but because of the success of Ross Perot, who in the summer before the election was leading in the pols and took votes away from Bush the elder.

My feeling on this has always been that Ron Paul wanted to play spoiler similar to Ross Perot, and have an impact on the content of the election. Why did bill clinton cut welfare? Because Ross Perot forced fiscal restraint as a key part of the election debates.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 19:11 | 3028499 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

the Billy goat was a Rhodes Scholar, and handpicked by the burger-builders.

he had a script, as do all of those narcissists chosen to be the Face of the Przzydent

RPaul had his own part in the Play, and keeps to his script, even now - and his Son will do the same.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:00 | 3027404 juangrande
juangrande's picture say fiscal,

I say fiasco.

Fiscal, fiasco. Let's call the whole thing off!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:16 | 3026254 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Sadly, my fear is it will be the dark ages first, then maybe...just maybe, reasonable heads will prevail--and even that is a big damn maybe.

The system will need to be purged of the "me first" mindset that is stuck in the heads of so many sheeple, be it a change of attitude or "other". The fact it all comes crashing down with the dems behind the wheel would be the icing on the cake(if only for fucks like pewlosi, harry etc) but there are plenty of drones on the other side-goes without saying.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:13 | 3026388 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

If there is another dark age, reasonable heads will roll

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:35 | 3026480 11b40
11b40's picture

The problm is, once it all tumbles down, the forces who come out on top will probably not be very democratic. 

Now, once a strongman siezes control, and one will, the tools he will have to STAY in control are so much more immense than is the past, it will be almost impossible to maount a meaningful resistance.  Monitoring communications, GPS pin-pointing, Drones, etc., are things that tyrants of the past did not have.  George Orwell was right.  He just had the timing wrong.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:52 | 3026502 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

There is a flip side to that- the ease of organization and information dissemination.

Technology has reduced the operational overhead for both sides.

If we had to go back to a secret society communication model with today's unenlightened airhead masses, we would be screwed.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:16 | 3026591 11b40
11b40's picture

I agree that the Internet and other technologies have provided great tools for spreading information and resistance.  However, there is a kill switch for the Internet, and all electronic communications seem to be able to be monitored. 

My concerns are when a strongman does finally get control.  Never have the tools of control been more effecient than they are today.  The power of the state is long as those in control can keep the army and police on their side. 

To me, that is still a big question in America.  We may fuss and fight about the particulars, but there is still a huge amount of patriotism here.  We mostly still agree that men should be free and individual liberty does have meaning.  There is a Constitution whose fine points are arguable, but the main constructs are deeply ingrained.  Would you betray the Constitution and turn on your fellow citizen?  Of course, some will, and some won't.  The questions is, how many of each are there in the Military and Police forces?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:28 | 3026707 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

My impression is that by the time the current and recent despots have gotten around to throwing the kill switch, the shit has already hit the fan.  However, for places with existing and extremely active internet "filters" such as China and to a lesser degree Iran- the case is much more murky.

A strong man coming to power doesn't worry me so much, since there are too many people who know too many weak points of critical systems, and there is not enough State manpower to defend them all, much less simultaneously oppress to the masses, even without the expected significant defections.  My concern is what the human cost of that battle would actually be, since the under-engineered system that is critical to supporting life for 300 million people could never withstand a few good brains with a few thousand good bodies returning fire against tyranny, much less Civil War part 2.

Applying a historical population curve for the city of Rome to just the major urban population centers of the US would be horrific.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:01 | 3026770 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

Who says it hasn't already come down? Just because the cult of personality hasn't formed doesn't mean someone isn't there or being groomed for the position. You don't think the Fed's don't have a list of Ron Paul supporters being cross checked with a list of Gun Owners. A little project under the working title of "willing patsies". You don't think Ron Paul isn't smart enough to know that?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:29 | 3026709 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

"The system will need to be purged of the "me first" mindset that is stuck in the heads of so many sheeple, be it a change of attitude or "other". "

This is going to have to be some dark age.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:46 | 3026354 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

We need to vote more directly on issues instead of people represeting "us" that we don't know and don't know us. Eventually, that is sure to happen. If media wasn't so owned, they could try and promote polls on issues that would poll millions of people instead of 1000. Not registered voters wanting to vote themselves a raise but EVERYBODY that has a unique internet identification. It wouldn't be hard to prove the representatives don't represent the people at that point. Instead of a childish 100,000 signatures to secede maybe 100 million votes for a real issue. I don't take any prescription medication, but Canada pays about 1/3rd the price for prescription medications we do, even though the pharmaceutical companies live here and other countries pay less. There is nobody in congress to represent Americans on an issue like that because the congressmen are bribed and there is no lobbying group to represent Americans on that issue. Change social security to begin at 70? Why should they "represent" us on an issue like that? We aren't capable to vote on an issue like that? Just vote for a person we don't know to make the decision?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:17 | 3026394 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

You are suppose to be concerned on either gay rights or gun rights - stop over thinking it

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:48 | 3026433 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

I don't think it takes a congressional genius to decide those issues either, just bribes and campaign contributions that are all wasted funds. There could be a forced film on the pluses and minuses of gayness and gunness and a pop quiz prior to casting a vote to insure an informed electorate that we don't have now. I doubt congress can do any better at selecting the right aircraft or tank than a general vote if 10 million votes can be tabulated. The first country to do it using the internet will be the first democracy.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:41 | 3026841 Charles Bishop ...
Charles Bishop Weyland's picture

 What about GAY gun rights? CAN'T FORGET THOSE.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:19 | 3026526 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

Your comment exemplifies why direct democracy is malignant. Canadians pay just as much as anyone else for their perscriptions. The costs are merely abstracted and hidden. Taken from the perspective of a Canadian whom does not maintain a contstant pharmecutical perscription, the cost burdened is far higher than if they were a U.S. citizen.

No, a congressman is not competent of representing you on issues like Social Security for the same reasons you are not competent in representing me. People behave differently when they have access to other people's wealth--whether they are accountable or not. Voting within a compulsory system is legalized evil. The problem with Congress is not the occupancy, but merely that it exists.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:08 | 3026670 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

It's my understanding that millions of Canadians negotiate their prescription prices as one group instead of us Americans being fleeced individually and that's why Canadians can sell our own phamaceutical companies drugs back to us at half the price we would pay here. It was just an example. I don't think voting should be compulsory. It should be voting on issues and not a popularity or campaign fund contest. Voting on the age to start social security wouldn't be me representing you. It would be a democracy where the most votes decides, not bribes.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 12:01 | 3028053 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

Perscription price in the USA has far more to do with patent law, FDA regulations, and subsidy than anything else. Buyer/Seller negotiation couldn't be further from the equation. Furthermore, you claim collective Canadian negotiation makes pharmaceuticals less expensive, but every Canadian is still paying for the pharmaceuticals whether they use them or not. If that Canadian is employed and non-geriatric, they are paying full price for these drugs their entire lives. That's one reason why Yankees love to cross the border and buy pharmaceuticals in Canada--Canadians have already payed for them!

You misread my remarks on voting. Voting in a complusory system is legalized evil. If you can vote away my life, liberty, and wealth without my consent, then voting is legalized tyranny. Bribes do exist in direct democracy. All of society is the bribe. Your neighbor's income, a company's assets, a stranger's labor--ALL of these things are game for plunder when no person has any option to not participate.

Voting in a complusory system (See: Democracy) is not righteous, it is not moral, it is not fair, and it is not good for humanity.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:17 | 3026688 TrulyStupid
TrulyStupid's picture

Built into every health care cost in the US like pharmas is a 30% overhead for the insurance provider and a windfall profit for the patent holder. Such is not the case in a single payer system that can shop competitively for pharmas.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:44 | 3026736 Mad Muppet
Mad Muppet's picture

The republican party is done.


Perfectly correct IMHO. Who do the Republicans represent now? Conservatives of any flavor? No. Strongly religous? Hell no. Constitutionalists? Puh-leeze! To be a Republican now you only have to hate the Democrats, since it's not like you'll be offered anything different on the other side of the isle. 2016 platform for the R party:' We're just like them!' Ought to be a real success.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 06:19 | 3027709 Tsukato
Tsukato's picture

My vote of preference goes for a new Dark Age. I want to experience a land of no law, of might is right. Sounds like a blast. Sounds far better than commenting on a pussy's choice article like this. Fuck Ron Paul! Let's see some action for Christ's sake! Enough of this sham of a system!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:06 | 3026310 yrad
yrad's picture

I was a RP delegate from his Co in Texas. I was lucky enough to see him speak at the state convention in ft worth.

We all knew he would not become potus. TPTB would never let that happen. He was robbed at every point. Gary Johnson was my only choice.

RP should run for Gov of the most powerful State in the Union and begin class for the sheeple.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:51 | 3026363 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

He was "robbed" for 22 years and so were we. It'd be better to try and accomplish SOMETHING realistic rather than secede from the union or end the federal reserve. It is great to do the grand fight against windmills and shout the slogans, but in the end nothing changes. The idea was make things tough and bad now in order to make a brighter future. I have every confidence he could make things tough and bad now and none that he could make things better in the future.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:38 | 3026549 Renewable Life
Renewable Life's picture

I was a RP supporter to, but I think Ron never was interested in winning, because he sells himself short on his Independent analysis!! He COULD have got on the ballot in all 50 states as an (I) if he hadn't spent 22 months doing those pathetic GOP debates, and the GOP closed all primaries to non registered GOP voters this last cycle for the first time in history, so they could lock out Ron supporters by the millions from voting for him as registered independents! So I don't think it was impossible, but I just don't think RP was up for it, which BTW I'm not mad at him for. I'm glad he said what needed to be said, and was honest with himself and the public, it was refreshing to hear!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:29 | 3026413 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

Congress is the enemy of the American people and the United States government is the enemy of mankind. This government should be abolished, overthrown, thrown off, destroyed, however you want to phrase it, for the good of mankind.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:17 | 3026593 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

I remember a time in America when saying, much less writing, something like that wouldn't have been enough to put your name on a list.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:06 | 3026666 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

There's no doubt that the majority of people are already on a "list" which in turn, makes such list absolutely useless.  Absolutely useless, just like Government.   

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:46 | 3026853 Charles Bishop ...
Charles Bishop Weyland's picture

  IT still ISN'T.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 09:54 | 3026219 Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

tl;dr: "Because I'm a shill for The Man."

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:03 | 3026232 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

Good ol' Ron Paul. he went right up to the line, but never crossed it. Whatever the reason why is, it isn't good.

What if....

What if RP had gone to Tampa, if he had taken his folowers as close to the Convention floor as the police thugs woiuld let them get? What of they had stormed the barricades? What if? What if?

What if pigs could fly... I don't know. We could have been on the verge of a real life, actual political revolution, but RP couldnt go over the line. To bad for us.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:17 | 3026318's picture

Well then that job is still open, isn't it? But there you sit at your keyboard. Not much chance of crossing lines and storming barricades while huddled in your comfy chair.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:29 | 3026329 centerline
centerline's picture

Why not stick to the real subject he brought up?  That RP was careful to not cross the line?  We all saw it in the games of "patty cake" he played every time a tough subject came up.  He was a master of walking the line.



Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:43 | 3026347's picture

Ron Paul crossed the line every day of his congressional career simply by setting the Constitution as his standard. The line you want Ron Paul to cross where he mounts a mighty steed and storms the barricades of Tampa is really kind of crazy. Can't you see that?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:54 | 3026368 centerline
centerline's picture

That is a stretch to go from stateman to Rambo - lol.  Sort of binary don't you think?  And as such would be crazy for sure.  Would be entertaining though!  ha ha.

I get what you are saying and agree.  But, you and I both know that his eye-poking could have been bloody noses instead.  He could have outright skewered some.  There was always restraint though.  Whether it is publically created or imposed by a system, etc. it was there and we all felt it.  That was the line.  He was careful to mind it.   

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:05 | 3026381's picture

There are any number of lines which one can cross in any given situation. Either one of us could cross the line from polite disagreement to SHOUTING AND INSULTS. But what would be the point of that? I'll simply reiterate that Ron Paul did hold the line at the most defensible redoubt available and one that deserves a staunch defense -- support for the Constitution. He built his army (over a million, strong, young and hale) and sallied forth from that point while not engaging in any suicide assaults on the enemy stronghold. At minimum he's made first down, to mix metaphors. The game is still on.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:23 | 3026403 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Don't worry centerline, if things change for the good we'll leave you out so you can continue to complain in peace. No involvement needed

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:43 | 3026492 centerline
centerline's picture

if you are satisfied with surface level logic, that none of my business.  

  good luck with the hopey, changey stuff.  xxoo 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:43 | 3026349 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

RP as gatekeeper?! OMG, the ZH throng is gonna burn you at the stake.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:47 | 3026356's picture

A slight majority of the individuals who post at ZH think rationally. I like it.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:01 | 3026379 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

Lol... and you must be one of them.

I generally agree with the bulk of your posts, but this one is just douchebaggery... and I junked you for it.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:08 | 3026384's picture

I'd prefer a rational argument rather than a down vote and charge of "douchebaggery." Are you up to the task?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:56 | 3026505 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Even a primitive mind can rationalize the irrational

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:41 | 3026344 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

One of the pimary reasons teh intereweb chatrooms and facebooks exist: they keep people enthralled. 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:52 | 3026365's picture

One of the primary reasons colonial pubs existed was because they allowed people to interact in a way very similar to internet chatrooms do today. There were likely pubs that drew a crowd of Yahoos and pubs that drew a ZH type crowd. Out of the latter came the Committees of Correspondence and the Sons of Liberty. The Internet is still a tool of freedom for the most part despite the fact that it's heavily monitored and infiltrated to some degree. That's why the government wants a kill switch.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:55 | 3026369 centerline
centerline's picture


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:10 | 3026387's picture

Thanks. I always enjoy finding points of agreement with those whom I have had some disagreement elsewhere.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:31 | 3026416 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

As long as I'm sitting here typing a reply to you, I'm not out doing something else.  The real action (by definition) isn't in cyberspace and anyone stuck here is impotent in the most fundamental way. Conflating 18th century taverns with FB (or even ZH) is an error of equivocation, IMO.

I am likely a much less optimistic person than you. I am also brutally skeptical, which means I am completely comfortable acknowledging that my pessimism may prove to be completely misplaced. I hope it is. See no evidence as of yet.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:19 | 3026438 centerline
centerline's picture

is skepticism that forms my current opinion.  and I fully accept that I could be wrong.   I can only hope to rise above my own preconceptions and biases here.  ZH is great for challenging ones thinking.  my thanks to all here who openly debate without fear of getting flamed.  edit... "skepticism" inserted above is what I meant to say.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:04 | 3026445's picture



As long as I'm sitting here typing a reply to you, I'm not out doing something else.


On that note I'm off for a bite before band practice.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:32 | 3026477 centerline
centerline's picture

Let me step imto this cyber thing just for just a moment here.  Rex and you both know how public this place is.  Ever think about how many people are potentially reached and how thoughts can spread?  About how gaining perspective gives us an edge to help others?   A "social" network is not what this place is.  And if you equate education and debate to impotence or inaction, I suggest you are grossly mistaken. 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:41 | 3026556 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

"Debate" and "education" are only starting points. Left contained in electronic wombs, ideas are not even stillborn; they're not born at all. That's the impotence that I referred to, and the status quo is served by impotence.

Enthrall: to capture fascination and attention, to enslave.

We will all know when the fascination is ending, becasue we will see the effects of it in the real world. Some would argue that there is evidence all around that this happening. I would argue that there's little evidence where I live in my little corner of the physical Empire.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:11 | 3026676 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

Enthrall is such a great descriptive.

there was precious little debating and far too much backslapping & cheering "here" in this election year - IMO, acknowledged.  even now, only a few are poking at the smoking remains of the cycle, despite much evidence as to what's gone down.

I used to live in Britain, pre-internet saturation, and pubs were mighty for having great discussions, arguing points, and learning others views.  the problem with the internet chatrooms is folks gravitate to reinforce their opinions, not challenge them.

I came to ZH when there was still a lot of challenging of ideas/beliefs, in thread, no voting arrows to hide behind.  I don't "trade" or follow the "markets" (real? fake?), but the information shared went beyond the money-manipulations, and there was much to learn - I could have gone to a site that had a different demographic, but I was looking to be challenged in my thinking, not find a bunch of monkeys to throw shit with (this is not aimed at ZH'rs, it's meant as an example of where most folks not trolling end up - with pals, throwing shit, lulz)

the fascination is still in the world, the majority are still enthralled. . . some are feeling very jaded though, and that's a good sign - but waking up is incremental - it's not "waking up" to a new "side" chosen, it's absenting yourself from the game completely - that takes some thought, effort, and resolve.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:38 | 3026730 centerline
centerline's picture

I disagree somewhat.  Enthralled is a weak statement.

Many people know that something is wrong.  They actively REFUSE to look it in the face.  They have a million excuses to avoid responsibility.  The "enthralled" component comes into play as a perfect diversion.  The internet has served this so well.  A 24-7 additiction to avoiding one's own real life and greater responsibilities to family and community.

Idiots are easily enthralled.  And surely there are alot of them too.  I really don't think all people are idiots though.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:15 | 3026785 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

I agree that many folks feel "something is wrong" - I guess my point is, and has been, that as long as one feels comfortable in a group story - such as outsiders voting for a hero - then they're entertained and subdued.

it's when they truly see through ANY and ALL options to staying within the groupthink - when they re-cognise the head fake - that they begin to be FREE of what's being offered to them as "solutions"

one doesn't need to be an "idiot" to be frightened of letting go of all you've been told is "real" - and no one can adequately describe the feelings of being free of their cultural story, even while watching the inevitable train wreck in slow motion. . .

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:27 | 3026811 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

IMO,  leaders - "heroes" - are more often than not part of the problem, not the solution.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:39 | 3026835 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

for some, having a hero is substituting an absent "father figure" - whether the father was actually absent, or didn't play the role expected, or whatever - it's the cultural story to seek "fathers" as evidenced in the Founding Father, and Heavenly Father memes - a big Daddy to look over you so you can play safely.

all governments encourage this is some fashion, looking to the Leader for direction.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:34 | 3026821 centerline
centerline's picture

Excellent points.  None of us a really truly free in the grand sense of things I suppose.  That would fit well with a friend of mine's "theory of stupidity" - ha ha.  Always reminds me the scene from The Matrix (I know - cliche at this point) where the guy wishes to be put back in the machine.  I can certainly relate.  




Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:49 | 3026860 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

we need to rethink "freedom" as it has been defined by a capitalist/having culture, where we're taught to chase monies to buy things to be free.

it's true that the things you own, own you.  stuff weighs us down, and then there is the maintenance of stuff, more monies consumed, more work/effort needed, more life-time down the sinkhole.  always comparing our stuff to someone else, measuring up.

leaving the Matrix isn't easy, because it's in the mind - for the most part, one still lives with others in the same world, it's just the perspective has shifted.

and there's fewer folks to share that perspective than back in group-think-land. . . nostalgia.

still, better than being emotionally dragged from pillar to post by the media & the imbibers.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:23 | 3026800 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

I used to live in Britain, pre-internet saturation, and pubs were mighty for having great discussions, arguing points, and learning others views.  the problem with the internet chatrooms is folks gravitate to reinforce their opinions, not challenge them.

Man speaks the truth on the pubs of Britain. They are excellent sources for information and fresh debate. Atleast until the yuppies take over and fuck it all up with incredibly loud laughter and Scrabble.Sadly the anonyamity and the ability to gauge a sources credibility and social background are something that makes any real organization impossible on the internet. Too many trolls and shills.

On another side right now the U.K is breaking out into this massive Paedogeddon/savile scandal the establishment has been trying to wash for decades now. Walk into any pub with social workers, police or people who knew what was what in the British establishment and you would have heard the rumours the press have only been breaking now after many decades. Too much disinfo and Chinese whispers on the interwebs for anyone to really know whats what or put any trust in something they read here.

I'd also be wary of meeting anyone however seemingly like minded on the internet.



Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:25 | 3026806 knukles
knukles's picture

Here here.  Same experience late 60's early 70's

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:02 | 3026882 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

while I did my drinking 'n' arguing with a group of males, I am female (not that it matters, but yeah).

and I'm speaking pre-themed pubs, back when there was no music played, the only sounds were voices and the clink of glass. . . I do have some nostalgia for that time, the rage against the machine was palpable.

and then folks got co-opted again by the great money-machine, and off they went to make it BIG.

and here. . . we are. . .again.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:25 | 3026696 centerline
centerline's picture

Maybe it was in my interpretation.  I agree in with what you are saying here - for most, the coming "reality" is going to be rude wake-up call.  But, I would add that you are really making my pessimism look like optimism.  lol.  Ideas forged in places like ZH will matter, do matter and affect more people than we realize.  Your words here are alive - not dead (or less).  "The pen is mightier than the sword."

I would add that ZH is a different creature.  This is not FB.  The debate has become somewhat weak over the last year or so - but I believe some of it would be akin to "beating a dead horse" or an exercise in confirmation bias.  

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:42 | 3026842 centerline
centerline's picture

What do you play?

You might find it interesting that I have on the internet today because I am home for once - tuning the drum set we have here, reconfiguring our mixing board/computer/mic setup, and looking on craigslist for another kit that is to be set up differently (jazz/big band instead of rock like our current kit).

Both my kids are percussionists in school and take private lessons at home too.  I play drums for the fun of it - but really was a brass player long ago.  Neighbors of ours actually loaned us a marimba and I have couple of guitars from my uncle who passed away, plus some decent stage PA speakers.  I am thinking of really pissing off the wife and turning a large chunk of the living room into a stage.  (If I build it, it will get played - lol... "Field of Dreams" inspired).

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:28 | 3027093's picture

Well, I own a guitar. But I stopped torturing that a long time ago. I'm singing with a friend who has been playing in bands for decades. He's asked me to sing before but the idea of singing in front a crowd made me too nervous and I couldn't stand the sound of my own voice on tape. But now I'm older and I could use a little fun so we've been practicing. Today he suggested that the next time his band plays out that I come up and do a couple of songs.

His band plays mostly old blues but the idea is to incorporate some all time classics as that's what drunken people like to hear and besides they're fun to sing and play. We've been working on The Letter (Gimme a ticket for an aeroplane...), Garden Party, Ripple, Here Comes a Regular and some others.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 00:22 | 3027489 centerline
centerline's picture

If your friend thinks you are up to the task and wants to put you on stage, what better vote of confidence can you get!?  Have a pint or two and then get up and go for it!  Have fun.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:20 | 3026400 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Crockett - this is the real problem.  Many of us talk about how bad things are and how much we wish someone would do something. All the while, we don't do anything drastic because of the consequences. And by drastic, I don't mean violent. Yet, we all know that if many of us took that step at the same time, there wouldn't be direct consequences.

Are you all familiar with how wesites kickstarter or groupon works? In a nutshell, you agree to take an action so long as enough other people take the same action.  For example, you might agree to give some cause or project $100 so long as 499 other people give $100 because the cause or project needs $50,000 to get started and getting only $5,000 or even $25,000 isn't enough to get off the ground.

That's what we need: a tool to let us agree to take a certain action so long as enough other people agree to do it that it will have the effect needed.  For example, this could be very local - say in one town we can get enough people to pledge to not pay their property tax in protest of ever higher rates or union giveaways, etc.  Or in that case, simply get enough people to agree to go to a town budget meeting (if you have them like we do here in New England) that you can out vote the public employees who always show up to vote for their own raises and projects.

Or get people to pledge to vote for a third party candidate at the next election. That would then solve the wasted vote problem.

And getting the people to agree doesn't all have to happen in one day, it can take as long as it take.  But once the threshold is reached, then the plan goes into effect.

Let's suggest some efforts and work out how many people it would take to make it effective.

For me, I'd like to see enough people agree to vote for a petition / referendum in a state that called for a Constitutional Convention. Not every state allows the petition process and it would be a several step process in the states the did allow it.  But, if we got it passed (ratified) in one state, then we could move on to the next and then it would develop its own momentum. I understand that this may not be immediate enough for many, but we could be working on several projects at the same time.



Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:01 | 3026436's picture

I like it. I would note that you'll have the best chance of organizing people around specific financial issues. We had a dust up around here over an outrageous reassessment of Allegheny County property values. While I personally won my appeal I don't know that anything positive was accomplished specifically in regard to property taxes on a systemic level. But there was mass outrage and meetings of thousands of concerned citizens that included not only an elderly couple who cried about the possible loss of their home but also two separate octogenarians with whom I spoke that called for revolution.

Change will come and it will come locally not because the people will change the minds of the bureaucrats but because the people will see their neighbors' pain while also feeling the strength of those who chose the people they know over the tender mercies of the carpetbaggers.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:17 | 3026461 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Crockett - not only can you see the pain and consequences locally, but you'd also have the abaility to talk with people face to face and that credibility will translate to action in a way that will never happen with campaigns that rely on celebrities, TV ads and the like.

So, were should we start and on what issue?


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:25 | 3026468's picture

Not enough time to answer. Eating soup and got to run. But if you stick with issues that hit people in the pocketbook you're halfway to building an army. Don't bite off more than you can chew at first. Fight skirmishes which you can win. Nothing succeeds like success.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:55 | 3026575 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Why the fuck would you want to give TPTB a free swing at making legal the illegal acts they are committing against our constitution as it is????? For fucks sake! Wake up and see what it would mean to hold a ConCon! Did you see what the hell the REP Convention did to their rules when RonP was looking like he had enough delegates to win???

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:49 | 3026358 redpill
redpill's picture

I'll tell you what if.  If Ron Paul had done that the GOP establishment would have gone into full attack mode and smothered the message of liberty even more than it already has.  Ron Paul has been around a long time and is not an idiot.  He understands this cause is a marathon, and no matter what he did or said would have put the finish line in play this year. 

Gary Johnson tried the third party route and 99% of Americans don't even know who he is.  That's what 'crossing the line' gets you.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:58 | 3026373 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

What if he got all the foreign bases closed and ended the federal reserve and cut taxes in half and made dope legal? Millions unemployed, but all the factories from China would come running back? Did he really believe that he could get 534 congressmen and the president to agree to the 600 bills he sponsered? He knew he would win no battles that he took on, he was just making good money working for the government. Until the Chinese stop taking jobs at $2 an hour or less, there will continue to be less jobs and less freedom and more prisons in order to keep people employed with the government with no real plan.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:06 | 3026520 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

$18 an hour wouldn't even come close to covering the higher regulatory, tax, obamacare, energy costs in the US and the cost of transportation of goods from China to the US.

The labor arbitrage theory is for simpletons who don't look at the actual cost structures associated with operating a business profitably (or the whore politicians who need sheeple votes).

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:50 | 3026861 Charles Bishop ...
Charles Bishop Weyland's picture




Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:04 | 3026236 machineh
machineh's picture

How does one change the two-party system? 

The petrified Depublicrat duopoly has been around so long that people have forgotten how it started.

It started with government conducting primary votes on their behalf, instead of letting the parties do so at their own expense.

What 'progressives' called getting rid of candidate selection in smoke-filled rooms turned into a hidebound government-subsidized duopoly.

To end the Depublicrat duopoly, it must be starved of funding, not subsidized with free primaries and public campaign finance (i.e., stolen money).

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:18 | 3026258 i_call_you_my_base
i_call_you_my_base's picture

The parties spent two billion and your solution is to end subsidies for primaries?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:05 | 3026238 TrulyStupid
TrulyStupid's picture

Here's hoping that RP spends his golden years spreading the word at college campuses and high schools.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:06 | 3026242 TahoeBilly2012
TahoeBilly2012's picture

I believe in the cult of personality when it is warranted. The tatoo is coming.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:32 | 3026275 CH1
CH1's picture

The tatoo is coming.

Yes, it is coming... and those who are not actively fighting for freedom beforehand will take it.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:27 | 3026328 TahoeBilly2012
TahoeBilly2012's picture

Well I was suggesting a Ron Paul tattoo on my bicep.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:02 | 3026380 CH1
CH1's picture

hehe... God bless!


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:01 | 3026307 Hi Ho Silver
Hi Ho Silver's picture

Your SS# is tattooed on the inside of your forehead already.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:07 | 3026889 Charles Bishop ...
Charles Bishop Weyland's picture



Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:13 | 3026248 Reptil
Reptil's picture

pff weak sauce: the proof is in the pudding - his "strategy" failed, the GOP changed the "rules".
yeah what did you expect? they're crooks, all of em.

if the system is broken, he should've run as independent, now he was just a lightning rod, to channel the anger over the Obamney bullshit.


the problem is not the politicians, the problem is the american population. they don't vote, or vote for crooks, so they get what they chose for: depopulation

just got a video of a guy measuring 30.000 CPM gamma on a Seatle parking lot (rainout). Could've been a badly callibrated Geiger counter, but it IS possible.
no one seems to care, no one seems to notice

frog is already boiling

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:31 | 3026272 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

I'd be interested in seeing that video. Fukushima is still smoldering and leaking the most nasty cocktail known to man (not Jagermeister & Redbull) into the environment, and is likely to do so for a long time.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:59 | 3026508 Reptil
Reptil's picture

I'll upload it, once I get the opportunity. I've contacted the guy, to check if his geiger counter is not broken, and callibrated.

In the meantime... something's not fresh in europe
The CRIIRAD website posts graphs of alpha, beta, and gamma radiation as well as iodine-131, for selected cities in France near nuclear power plants. The readings in Rhône river water show a sudden increase in iodine-131 and gamma radiation levels beginning on November 27. This river originates in Geneva, Switzerland, and there was a rainstorm there starting on Nov. 26 with about an inch of rain. (source:

anyone still in doubt if that has any meaning:

just one piece of the puzzle, one vector of attack (on us).

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:33 | 3026540 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Unless you are talking about the 100 WATT research reactor at EPFL there are no nuclear power plants within the Rhône River basin in Switzerland.  The Swiss plants feed the German fetish for playing human fire plug.

However, I believe the French have banned the import of fish from Lac Leman since at least back when I lived in Geneve, so there are certainly SIGNIFICANT other known water quality issues with that lake.

Of course there is also that big black hole machine right near the lake...

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:20 | 3026319's picture



if the system is broken, he should've run as independent


What part of he had a better chance at winning not to mention getting his message out through the Republican Party primaries than through the broken system which stymies Independents at every turn did you not understand?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:13 | 3026524 Reptil
Reptil's picture

He got some traction, as a Republican, of course. But that's about it. His opponents controlled the final process of selection, so he ran into a dead end.
That's what I understand.

"It doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes" Joseph Stalin

Because he was/is really popular, running as 3rd party candidate would have exposed the extreme bias of the broken system (mainstreammedia&2parties), at the very least.

Right now many americans are still living in the delusion they have a political system that's a reflection of their collective choices. So, absolutely NOTHING changed.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" J.W. Goethe

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:26 | 3026702 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

controlled opposition, keeps people inside the system, where they're powerless to create any change - instead of leaving the system behind, and empowering themselves.

all one needs to do is observe the many ways the minds here contort themselves to keep playing on the edges of the rules someone else has written for them.

can't leave the matrix if you let the matrix define your game.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:21 | 3026798's picture

Don't discount the power of radicalization through the disappointment of trying to work within the system.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:11 | 3026897 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

I don't, but it appears to be a slow-footed thing, walking away from the whole circus.

but yes, disappointment is a step forward if one surrenders the hope proffered.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:18 | 3027132's picture

One must learn to be true on one's principles while modifying the policies one supports as one's knowledge grows and as situations change.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 20:24 | 3028599 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

yes, this is truth, we can agree.

the only constant, change.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:12 | 3026249 eigenvalue
eigenvalue's picture

Ron Paul wouldn't have won even if he had run as an independent. There are too many sheeple and parasites out there. Besides, he is too old and the USA is beyond repair. 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:33 | 3026276 CH1
CH1's picture

Ron Paul wouldn't have won even if he had run as an independent.

Quite true, but the education he provided to millions was priceless.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:59 | 3026301 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

There is nothing left to repair.

Complete destruction of the system is the only starting point from here.

What it is  the start of is the question.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:34 | 3026721 oddball
oddball's picture


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:18 | 3026256 Mark Wilson
Mark Wilson's picture



Here's Ron Paul on the Morton Downey Jr Show from 1988:

Ron Paul gives 'em hell!


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:55 | 3026343's picture

First time I watched that clip in its entirety. Downey is an asshole and the show has a lousy format. But it's great to see this younger Ron Paul switch back and forth from reasoned argument to taunting a room full of fascists. The crazy broad in the beret wants the military to go into the streets to fight the drug war. Funniest part is when Ron tells the guy at the end, "Maybe the government should put you on a diet, you're a little overweight" and both he and the fascist broad look hurt and shocked by the comment.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:54 | 3026367 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

i do not know how ron paul has maintained his composure all these years....maybe he will get in one of those texas towers one day and just release all that he has held in and endured for 30 some years....he is truly a role model for all...

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 13:14 | 3026456 koncaswatch
koncaswatch's picture

I guess the "Texas towers" part of your comment drew the down vote; not from me. I was hoping that PR's frustrations may be rewarded through his son, but, no chance of that, they're really not cut from the same cloth.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:32 | 3026717 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

you may think this now, but I guarantee you, if things were to last to another "election" cycle in 2016 (impossible), many would do the lazy voter thing of "choosing" Rand because they'll remember liking Ron, and that's how voting works - it'll be "well, he's not his father, but he's the best we have on offer/lesser of evils/blahblahblah" - and noses would be held just to STAY ON TEAM, 'cause you can't let the OTHER TEAM WIN.

there have been more than a few here posting "Rand in 2016"

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:18 | 3026257 CulturalEngineer
CulturalEngineer's picture

A viable one-click speech related microtransaction WILL weaken the duopoly... if not completely break it.

 A neutral network enabling especially but not only a political micro-contribution encourages greater participation in the political process, reduces the influence of concentrated and hidden money, offers greater transparency and on the local level facilitates local co-ordination for neighborhood betterment. Moreover, while apparently not yet recognized, it is  at root is a fundamental of political speech necessary where monetary lobbying is allowed at all.

(An ability for an interest group to make a solicitation to several million people with a one-click capability to give, for example, just 25 cents... over time entirely alters the basics of campaign fundraising.)

Wells Fargo left me homeless but I have some increasingly viable hopes for a pretty good revenge...

On Tools for Citizenship: the Neglected Essential


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:22 | 3026263 KennyW
KennyW's picture

He didn't want to run as an independent because he didn't want to take votes away from Romney. Paul was just a Trojan horse to gauge peoples thoughts. Never from the beginning did he run to win.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:24 | 3026266 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Anyone who was going to vote for RP did not vote for anyone else. Maybe Gary Johnson.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:35 | 3026281 W74
W74's picture

Romney lost because real conservatives want nothing to do with the shill.  I'd rather have Tovareesh Obamski in office than a sociopath who was more than willing to send other people's kids off to die in Iran so that contractors and his buddies in the Knesset would benefit.  Given the two horrible options we were 'given' I think the country made the right choice.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:35 | 3026336 centerline
centerline's picture

Come on W74.  Romney was selected to run for a reason.  He was supposed to fail - and did.  The illusion of choice.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:01 | 3026377 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

my view is they should all be shot for treason and other crimes, with the exception of a few...with that being said i think the difference between romney and obama is....obama will try and hold off war with iran, for no doubt all the wrong reasons were as for romney it  would have been his first order he followed from the little country in the middle east.... 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 14:38 | 3026547 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Obama IS a sociopath who IS more than willing to send other people's kids off to die in Iran so that contractors and his buddies/bosses in the Knesset will benefit.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:35 | 3026725 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

then "other people's kids" shouldn't be volunteering to fight corporate wars, nor should anyone be cheerleading this.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:12 | 3026900 Charles Bishop ...
Charles Bishop Weyland's picture


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 12:27 | 3026410 WallowaMountainMan
WallowaMountainMan's picture

"Never from the beginning did he run to win."

he won my vote.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:32 | 3026274 hustler etiquette
hustler etiquette's picture

I need a government contract.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 10:42 | 3026288 Miss Expectations
Miss Expectations's picture

"Ideas do have consequences and that's where the good news is because the campuses are alive and well with these views and they know the system is bankrupt."

Sorry, but no.  They may suspect that the system is bankrupt, but they don't even know that they are in the process of bankrupting themselves.   Their own sorry state of affairs will only become apparent when the partying ends, the job applications go unanswered, the loan payment is due, they can't afford to rent or own. 


Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!