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The 11 "Death Spiral" States

Tyler Durden's picture


Eleven states made Forbes' list of danger spots for investors including California, New York, Illinois, and Ohio. They warned (and with the cliff it is even more critical), if you have muni bonds in these states - clean up your portfolio; if your career takes you there - rent, don't buy! Two factors determine their list of 'fiscal hellholes'. The first is whether there are more takers (someone who draws money from the government) than makers (the gainfully employed). The second is a state credit-worthiness score (via Conning) based on large debts, uncompetitive business climates, weak home prices, and bad trends in employment. Conning rates North Dakota the safest state to lend money to, Connecticut the most hazardous. A state qualifies for the Forbes' death spiral list if its taker/maker ratio exceeds 1.0 and it resides in the bottom half of Conning’s ranking. See below for the 11 states to matter what Bob Toll, Larry Yun, Bob Pisani, or Alexandra Lebenthal tells you..


Number 11 - Ohio Taker ratio: 1.00
The battleground state has a fiscal standoff between takers (people collecting welfare, a government salary or a government pension) and makers (private sector employees).

Number 10 - Hawaii Taker ratio: 1.02
Dark clouds over Waikiki Beach: Hawaii has slightly more takers than makers.


Number 9 - Illinois Taker ratio: 1.03
Dubious ex-gov Rod Blagojevich personifies what's wrong with this state: Too many goodies promised to insiders. Unfunded pensions contribute to the balance of 103 takers to every 100 makers.

Number 8 - Kentucky Taker ratio:1.05
Twilight in Lexington. People drawing from government slightly outnumber people chipping in with private-sector jobs.

Number 7 - South Carolina Taker ratio:1.06
Riptides on Folly Beach.


Number 6 - New York Taker ratio: 1.07
Blackout in the Flatiron district after the hurricane. Manhattan still has a vibrant financial sector. Manufacturing there is extinguished. Causes: taxes, unions, regulations and cheap apparel workers abroad.


Number 5 - Maine Taker ratio: 1.07

Casco Bay, Portland. This is a state with a beautiful coastline and a ratio of 107 drawers from the public fisc to every 100 contributors.


Number 4 - Alabama Taker ratio: 1.10

Cityscape seen from the Vulcan statue in Birmingham.


Number 3 - California Taker ratio: 1.39

California is generous to a fault, at least to state employees and the needy. To private sector employees, who are outnumbered, it is not so hospitable.


Number 2 - Mississippi Taker ratio: 1.49

Flooding near Tunica in May 2011. The state ranks second to worst on the list of states burdened by a high ratio of takers (welfare recipients and state employees) to makers (private sector workers). 


And The Worst State to live in or lend to is...

Number 1 - New Mexico Taker ratio: 1.53

Wildfire near the Los Alamos Laboratory in June 2011. In our taker/maker ratio, federal employees are excluded from the taker count since their cost is not borne locally. That doesn't save this state from having the worst ratio in the nation.


As Forbes advises:

To lend money to California, Illinois or the other nine states perched on the precipice requires a leap of faith. So does buying a house in those locales. Don’t count on a property tax limit to protect your home’s value. If other taxes are high enough, there won’t be any buyers.


Source: Forbes


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Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:18 | 3033808 koaj
koaj's picture

im happy NJ for once didnt make the top 10 worst of something

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:21 | 3033818 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Arkansas is also mightly pleased...

A very dubious metric nonetheless...

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:38 | 3033857 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

As we say in arkansas, thank god for mississippi!  [meaning, mississippi is always worse than us on virtually every metric]

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:45 | 3033878 flacon
flacon's picture

Speaking of New Jersey... FREE JON CORZINE!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:09 | 3033908 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I honestly think Forbes underestimated the number of takers by a fairly significant degree. I am delving more deeply into their methodology.

And regarding this:  "...Bob Toll, Larry Yun, Bob Pisani*, or Alexandra Lebenthal..."

The carnival barking sell-siders of residential real estate, who declare that it's always, forever & wherever the best time to buy a home!  

*Bob Pisani, from failed real estate developer to wandering floor reporter for cnBSc, a network with approximately 1,800 daily viewers.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:23 | 3033996 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

I lived in NM 6 years. It is one step from a 3rd world nation. This is not surprising.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:14 | 3034155 old naughty
old naughty's picture

No wonder most of the other 40 wish to secede...

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 01:23 | 3034817 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

Where are the Mississippians crying foul that Alabama didn't make the list?  Oh, right, this is the internet.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:29 | 3034329 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

While I was there, New Mexico increased its resemblance to Old Mexico.  Not just talking about the demographics.  Gangs, evil cops, cronyism, poverty, drunk driving, and drug trafficing all got worse.

Really liked the place though (thanks, northern NM mountains and hippies).  The four main states I have lived in have all been in the top 6 as far as the welfare ratio goes, and NM was the least dysfunctional overall. 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:58 | 3034089 perchprism
perchprism's picture



The author didn't go into much detail.  One "taker" doesn't equal one "maker" in terms of income.  However, that parasite's vote is what counts.  When the takers outnumber the makers it's all downhill from there.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:57 | 3034519 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

A jughead from the jughandle state.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 04:43 | 3034918 Daily Bail
Daily Bail's picture

Check out the first photo - it's worth the click if you're a guy who likes chicks in bikinis while still clinging to the belief that it's all about finance.

You're welcome.

States Most Likely to Go Bankrupt

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 08:35 | 3035042 LedMizer
LedMizer's picture

I thought Charlie was as queer as a football bat?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 09:47 | 3035196 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Honey baked hams...Yum.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:47 | 3034668 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

I was thinking the same thing ... about Mississippi.


Wed, 12/05/2012 - 09:32 | 3035147 midtowng
midtowng's picture

It's interesting how many of these states are deep red.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 12:19 | 3035866 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

As we say in arkansas, thank god for mississippi!  [meaning, mississippi is always worse than us on virtually every metric]


As someone who was born and raised in Mississippi and whose best friend at work from Arkansas constantly reminds me of this refrain....all I can say is that as the state that always is ranked 49th in everything....Arkansas sucks so bad they can't even be NUMBER 1 in losing....unlike the Great State of Mississippi !!


LOL !   +1 MachoMan


Go, Mississippi
Words and Music by Houston Davis


States may sing their songs of praise
With waving flags and hip-hoo-rays,
Let cymbals crash and let bells ring
Cause here's one song I'm proud to sing.


Go, Mississippi, keep rolling along,
Go, Mississippi, you cannot go wrong,
Go, Mississippi, we're singing your song,

Go, Mississippi, you're on the right track,
Go, Mississippi, and this is a fact,
Go, Mississippi, you'll never look back,

Go, Mississippi, straight down the line,
Go, Mississippi, ev'rything's fine,
Go, MIssissippi, it's your state and mine,

Go, Mississippi, continue to roll,
Go, Mississippi, the top is the goal,
Go, Mississippi, you'll have and you'll hold,

Go, Mississippi, get up and go,
Go, Mississippi, let the world know,
That our Mississippi is leading the show,

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:33 | 3034229 Muddy1
Muddy1's picture

New Mexico is #1 for something besides alcohol related traffic accidents??????????  As a Native New Mexican, I think I'm offended.

Perhaps off topic but now reported via DRUDGE: NSA is watching you, and everyone else.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:58 | 3034524 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Were employees at Los Alamos counted among the makers, or the takers?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 11:04 | 3035528 aerojet
aerojet's picture

What difference does it make that the NSA is watching us?  The NSA has *always* been watching us.  And if they're so freaking good at it, why is there such a vibrant illicit drug trade going on in the US?  Does that mean basically underwrites illegal drugs.  Don't answer that, because I already know that they do.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:29 | 3033839 cossack55
cossack55's picture

I'm shocked Freedonia didn't make it.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:34 | 3034417 Fred Hayek
Fred Hayek's picture

Rufus T. Firefly straightened the place out.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:33 | 3033851 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Is New Jersey still a state? I thought it was turned into a swamp.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:37 | 3033858 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Sure they are still a state, just like Louisiana is.

Don't tell them I said that though, they'll cry.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:46 | 3034043 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

if NJ isnt on this list, then these 11 states are in BIG fucking trouble.......NJ is nothing but a corrupt cesspool of TAKERS

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:58 | 3034425 mark mchugh
mark mchugh's picture

Not so.  (And I can't believe I'm defending New Jersey)

In 2009 (the most recent data), New Jersey was one of the very,very few states that sent more to Washington than it took.

(Page 2 - NJ sent Washington $103.5B)

(NJ only got $80.6B from Washington)

Note: California sent $273B & got $346B


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:01 | 3034532 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

That is one of the best sites ever for raw historical fiscal data.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:15 | 3034577 Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture

That's only because they aren't including Tropical Storm Sandy Relief Dollars....if they did, you'd make the top five.  Never give up hope.  :)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:21 | 3033813 EuroInhabitant
EuroInhabitant's picture

According to Ambrose E-P, the US is recovering thanks to the shale gas revolution. Lots of manufacturing jobs are "homecoming" because of the cheap gas. So Americans, you are having a bright future.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:43 | 3033836 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

The government already accounted for that economic plus and spent it.  With interest.


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:49 | 3033887 surf0766
surf0766's picture

The epa will shut gas fracking down once the frackers are told they do not pay their and their neighbors fair share.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:04 | 3033922 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Those jobs will be gone when they have enough wells operational.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:10 | 3033949 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

All of your bright futures are belong to us

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:22 | 3033817 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture

You forgot to add CT and MA to the list.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:37 | 3033854 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

How the hell did RI not make the list???

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 11:07 | 3035548 aerojet
aerojet's picture

What about Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota?  Welfare state writ large...

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:22 | 3033819 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Who still buys this shit?  I mean really, what can they be smoking that they think they'll get paid?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:25 | 3033828 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Answer?  Dumb ass, lazy pension fund managers.  As for what each is smoking, I think that depends on what state said pension fund manager hails from.

As I wrote elsewhere, this market is absolutely flooded with idiots....aka America's "Best and Brightest."

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:32 | 3033848 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Same guys that couldn't get enough RMBS bonds.

Maybe DHS needs to up the ammo orders.

1,5 bn might not be enough ,when these pension funds, and

states blow up.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:03 | 3033918 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Their ammo sucks.


Frangible, low ricochet potential crap, and green 223 lead free fmj.


Russians arent messing around. 203 grain 7.62x54 Barnaul are cheap, and soft point for excellent terminal effects.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 11:10 | 3035558 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Because so many long guns are chambered in 7.62x54R these days.  Let's see--Mosin Nagant, various Dragunov clones, and if you can find one, the PKM GPMG. 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:23 | 3033822 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

More bread & circuses... NOW!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:24 | 3033825 macdec35
macdec35's picture

I am in Arizona only a few miles((9) from Calif, are we indanger of an influx on those folks?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:33 | 3033852 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Californians on the move head north, as a rule. LA could go broke and empty and you might see something then. Otherwise, you can relax.

Oh and you can make some coin here. If you really live that close then you are in good position to profit from all the confused and stupid LA fat people looking for a burger and Big Gulp while they try to find a place to lay down and die. Set up a fast food franchise or else a cemetary catering to the Big-n-Tall-but-mostly-Big, either could be a money maker.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:41 | 3033865 spinone
spinone's picture

I hear goliath caskets is looking for franchise owners

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:48 | 3033888 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

I wonder if Rome in 64 AD had these kinds of problems?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:06 | 3034330 hairball48
hairball48's picture


As long as they don't come to Montana!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:56 | 3033901 Strider52
Strider52's picture

Too freakin hot in Az.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:06 | 3034546 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Mogollon rim perhaps?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:28 | 3034008 tbd108
tbd108's picture

You've heard of "massholes" (in New Hampshire) or getting "Californicated" (for the rest of the West Coast). The answer is "yes" you are.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:24 | 3033826 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

It is interesting how much of the Gun Belt is in here.  And, there should be an alternate list that includes Federal workers cuz that would be interesting too.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:50 | 3033890 Umh
Umh's picture

WTF are you talking about people in NY, CA, ME, HA, OH, IL have to be connected to own guns.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:58 | 3033909 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

People in Maine have to be connected to own guns?? What? 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:40 | 3034111 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

Connected to Unclehenry'




Find the firearm you want, including picture thereof, call number listed to arrange        

meeting seller. Like it, buy it cash, a nice clean firearm. Neighboring state people

are listing in Unclehenry's as well. 


Lawn sales as well. Last one I saw this summer has an Remington 06,                   .

9 shot 22 revolver, .410 single shot and .22 rifle.

Nothing like drive through firearm purchases, although I do not believe they sold,            

as it was almost dark out. RUUuunnnn !!! - ARNOLD


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:51 | 3034060 American Dreams
American Dreams's picture

What you been smokin' OH is locked and loaded.  Walk in walk out 30 minutes for anything you want besides auto mag and you can do that on your own.

know your enemy

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:07 | 3034133 dhengineer
dhengineer's picture

In NY, that's only true in downstate and in the city.  Here in upstate, there are more guns than people.  Just the other day, I saw a baby carriage with a gun rack on the back, with a couple of nice Remingtons racked and loaded.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:16 | 3034164 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

You know, Frost Belt, Rust Belt, Corn Belt, Bible Belt, Sun Belt, Gun Belt?

Gun Belt's Boom Has Gone Bust   Defense Conversion Proves To Be A Painful Process For Many Laid-off Workers


So WTF are you not getting?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:06 | 3033933 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Include the feds and Virginia and Maryland go down the toilet.  Alaska too?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 11:13 | 3035576 aerojet
aerojet's picture

It's worse than than that Jim in MN--most of the private sector one way or another depends on for its profits.  Healthcare, higher education, farming, defense sector.  There are vanishingly few jobs that don't somehow require the federal machine to pay their way, subsidize, or favorably regulate in some form.  Many companies I have worked for had private sector customers, but also .gov customers and without those .gov customers, they would go belly up.  We are lying to ourselves about how far down the road to destruction we are because it is hidden from view.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:31 | 3033834 Insideher Trading
Insideher Trading's picture

Connecticut the most hazardous?

Bridgeport, Hartford, Stamford, and New Haven are where all the hardworking givers live. There is only a small enclave where the evil leachers of CT live: New Canaan, Darien, and Westport...and parts of Greenwich.

This make no sense to me.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:27 | 3033835 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

More like FAKERS, PARTAKERS, and MAKERS. Sadly, the latter is a schriveling, dying breed.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:30 | 3033842 drbill
drbill's picture

Not dying. Just going Galt.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:28 | 3033837 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

AMF to those states, bitchez!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:29 | 3033838 HCQ
HCQ's picture

This list is racist.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:30 | 3033840 Frastric
Frastric's picture

Alabama's taker ratio should be at least twice that stated; the locals inbreed you see...

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:30 | 3033843 Cursive
Cursive's picture

Wow, Alabama and Mississippi but no Louisiana.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:54 | 3033898 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Most of Louisiana's takers got washed out by Hurricane Katrina a few years ago.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:14 | 3034569 BeansBulletsBandaids
BeansBulletsBandaids's picture

I thought they just moved to Houston.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:30 | 3033844 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Does Washington D.C. count?  I understand that the ratio there is 1000:1.


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:11 | 3034340 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:31 | 3033847 GubbermintWorker
GubbermintWorker's picture

Holy Crap! I'm in Indiana and we're surrounded!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:43 | 3033875's picture

I thought that's what Fort Wayne was for.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:06 | 3033934 Esso
Esso's picture

I'm in Ft. Wayne. Like gold, forts are a "barbarous relic" and strongholds of terrorists. We must declare a war on forts.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:47 | 3034275's picture



ZAIUS: That mythical community you're supposed to come from -- Fort Wayne?

TAYLOR: What about it?

ZAIUS: A fort! Unconsciously, you chose a name that was belligerent.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:44 | 3034440 akak
akak's picture

Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty bankster!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:32 | 3033849 magpie
magpie's picture

I was always told California does not belong to flyover country

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:35 | 3033853 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

California belongs to China. There will be a new Ellis Island created in San Francisco if the ChiComs ever lose their slipping grip on reality.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:27 | 3034863 A Nanny Moose
Wed, 12/05/2012 - 11:15 | 3035586 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Two billion screaming Chinamen.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:02 | 3036594 darteaus
darteaus's picture

There already is one: Angel Island

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:36 | 3033855 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Who cares?  Bernanke will buy next round.  Bottoms up!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:40 | 3033862 Esso
Esso's picture


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:43 | 3033871 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I'm not sticking my bottom up nor anywhere near that man...  that's just asking for it.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:50 | 3033891 Esso
Esso's picture

Good point.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:09 | 3033945 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

You must be a maker.  Bernanke is looking for takers.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:41 | 3033863 PLove
PLove's picture

Aluminum prices down 17%.

What does that mean for Chemtrails?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:40 | 3033864 q99x2
q99x2's picture

That's right, banksters can leave all hope behind if they enter California. We sign all contracts on sight and laugh all the way to the bank.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:43 | 3033874 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

Just print the money. It's not like more than 3 people out of 100 produce anything anyways. The economy is all bullshit. And if you are going to produce so much, well someone has to consume it. Let's see you share your unearned "credit" with the other 6.7 billion on the planet and then we are getting somewhere.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:46 | 3033880 egoist
egoist's picture


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:47 | 3033883 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

If you cut off the takers today then a large number of makers would be cut off tomorrow. And the day after that more makers would lose their job. It's all inter-related BS. Good luck changing it.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:53 | 3033896 Getting Old Sucks
Getting Old Sucks's picture


Can we have an article on which states could prosper without being part of the USSA?  Would like to know.  Might help the breakup of the USSA before the entire nation goes down.  Only takes one with balls to start the process.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:56 | 3033900 10044
10044's picture

ND, SD and TX

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:59 | 3033911 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Texans always conviently forget that it was LBJ and his "Great Society" bullshit that sent us down the path we are on today. Let Mexico have TX back.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:08 | 3033940 10044
10044's picture

Until mexico decides, let tx sell oil to Barry and prosper

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:10 | 3034143 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

right because USA plays fair with oil bearing countries?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:44 | 3034041 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

I didn't vote for the SOB.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:14 | 3034115 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

("Let Mexico have TX back.")

Throw in New Mexico. Nobody will notice.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:08 | 3034128 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

that'll last for one quarter and then you'll get invaded...  why would you think otherwise?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 05:32 | 3034943 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Who the fuck in their right mind would try and invade Texas?

A rifle behind every blade of grass, pickup truck and steer.   (paraphrase of Yamamoto) 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 06:21 | 3034959 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

"Who...would...invade Texas?"

Perhaps the Zetas, looking for a new base...?  TexZetas.  :-)

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:36 | 3037238 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

I aint for it, but you do know drones > rifles

welcome to the DeathStar .. hope ye rebel force truely has the force

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 11:27 | 3035646 aerojet
aerojet's picture

None--by design.  The whole thing is wired to explode.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:52 | 3033905 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

G-Rod is a piker compared to the thieves in Springfield and DC. 13 F'ing years for what he did means most politicians should be serving life terms.  Jesse Jr was the the most corrupt SOB ever but he's black and his daddy is...

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:58 | 3033907 wcvarones
wcvarones's picture

Disagree on rent vs. own.

I bought a house in a desirable neighborhood in California.  It's a good way to get 4:1 leverage on a big asset before Zimbabwe Ben devalues the dollar.

Yes, California is a complete disaster, but do you really think Zimbabwe Ben will let California default?  That would drag the whole country into the debt deflation that ZB is so afraid of.  No, ZB keeps printing for years, until today's nominal house prices look tiny in the rear-view mirror.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:20 | 3033988 SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

"It's a good way to get 4:1 leverage on a big asset before Zimbabwe Ben devalues the dollar."

What about taxes?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:37 | 3034025 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

Property taxes will keep going up.

Interest rates will go up unless they can make them nominally negative.

Wages will keep going down.

On the plus side, Germans or Chinese might come in and buy with deflated dollars. Next 10 years probably wouldn't be a good time to invade, though. I see property values going way lower when they dump the shadow inventory after a global slowdown. In some states they should be running out of time to foreclose with state statutes of limitation on contracts.




Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:26 | 3034209 wcvarones
wcvarones's picture

Prop 13 protects us from tax increases.  If they gut Prop 13, I'm outta here.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:38 | 3034433 Being Free
Being Free's picture

Woops!  What's the left hand doing?

You're still paying for it.  Maybe not in property taxes, but it's comin outa your hide somehow.


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:30 | 3034014 JuicedGamma
JuicedGamma's picture

Uhm, leverage cuts both ways.  Don't way you weren't warned.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:28 | 3034212 wcvarones
wcvarones's picture

What in Zimbabwe Ben's record makes you think he'll do anything but keep printing?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:02 | 3033917 Hangfire
Hangfire's picture

California just sucks...I still can't believe I was here to watch it all happen, like a slow motion train wreck who's big nose is plowing it's way right into my city of San Diego.    

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:51 | 3034062 divide_by_zero
divide_by_zero's picture

Still can't believe that rat-fuck Filner got elected mayor, he'll bankrupt the city before 4 years up. Likewise the state as a whole gave Dems super majorities in both state houses, I expect to see an attack on Prop 13 "for the children". First order of business was apparently a bill tripling auto registration fees.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:02 | 3033919 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture

OT. What's going on with gold and silver? It's slightly down

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:35 | 3034020 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Slightly? WTF time did you wake up today?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:04 | 3033925 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

The takers are all on wall street and the ceos. This is one fucked up author.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:50 | 3034481 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

yet another Stockholm Syndrome tale. . .

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:10 | 3033955 Hohum
Hohum's picture

Does this little article imply that 39 states are NOT takers?  It takes quite a metric to get there.  Congrats!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:13 | 3033967 goodrich4bk
goodrich4bk's picture

This taker-maker meme is cool.  It is such a useful analytic, let's apply it elsehwere:

To the entire U.S. before 1940, when the percentage of employed Americans over the age of 16 (makers) was less than those who did not work outside the home (takers)

To Apple Computer, whose shareholders (takers) clearly outnumber its employees (makers)

To veterans (takers of war) who clearly outnumber the Chicken Hawks in Congress (makers of war)


Then again, it doesn't always seem to work.  For example, there are 70 million mortgages in America working to generate interest income (makers) but probably less than a few hundred thousand of "financial innovators" (takers) skimming unearned income of that flow.  The fact that the makers greatly outnumber the takers didn't seem to give them much power now, did it?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:15 | 3033972 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Alabama's problem in confined to Jefferson County. Jefferson County has already gone bankrupt. It's still in the process of deciding who gets what. The problem originated with the sewage system. Too many stole too much of the money and crashed the project. Sewage rates in areas served by the sewage system have become so expensive people have their sewage connection shut-off and have portable toilets placed beside their homes. The monthly cost for Port-a-potties is $75. The monthly cost for a connection to the sewage system is $300.


Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:25 | 3034000 SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

"The monthly cost for Port-a-potties is $75. The monthly cost for a connection to the sewage system is $300."

Wow, I guess that makes those middle of the night pee runs outside a little more bearable?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:53 | 3034287 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

That is what our ancestors used chamber pots for.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 11:44 | 3035718 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Now we don't even have a pot to piss in.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:58 | 3034094 blindman
blindman's picture

the county was sited for improper waste
discharges from their sewer system by the epa
or a state regulator, as a result of an attempt
to upgrade their system they were gang raped by
j.p. morgue. in a nut shell, the financial raping continues to this day. also, part of the raping
was accompanied by their local officials holding
the population down and gaging them. these people
went to jail is the way i heard it. the rapist
walks free as systemically important or indispensable.
we can only wonder why and to whom they are indispensable.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:18 | 3034366 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

I thought the problem started with JP Morgan & squid bond swaps.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:32 | 3034616 epwpixieq-1
epwpixieq-1's picture

They can buy a composting toilet  for $875 ( just google it ).

In addition to the savings they will save also money for any artificial fertilizers, for they will have their own (natural), and will be able to produce their natural home grown food. Win-win for them and loose for the county, at least till the moment when the bureaucrats decide that making own natural fertilizer is taxable, the more you shit the more you pay, sort of sloagan ( this may be a valid way of tackling the fiscal cliff, even the national debt).

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 07:53 | 3034998 Mr. Mandelbrot
Mr. Mandelbrot's picture

Hogwash.  You obviously don't live in Jefferson County.  The sewer rate is not $300.  It is based on water consumption.  The sewer rate currently runs 2.5x the water rate (so if you consume $100 in water, your sewer bill would be $250).  I've not seen or heard of any port-a-potties here.  People still have to bathe, do dishes, etc.  People are opting to get off sewer by installing septic tanks.  The local governments are proposing a $400 "nonuser" fee to discourage this since they say users and nonusers alike benefit from a sanitary sewer system . . .

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:34 | 3034015 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

Ohio is a balanced-budget state, but is about to make a Greece-like mistake to get around the annual requirement - a sale/lease deal for the Ohio Turnpike with private equity or a hedge fund.

Lease-backs of public property owned outright usually net solid, double-digit returns for the buyer. Other than the upfront cash infusion to the state, these deals are almost always long-term losers for taxpayers.

If there is 30-40% investment potential or more in these deals, it is often because of cost containment and limited liability clauses that leave much of the risks with the taxpayer.

It takes little business magic to raise tolls, cut worker pay and benefits, leverage new exits by buying up land with the insider knowledge, reworking state supplier contracts once restrictions are null and void, and exceed legal prudence knowing the taxpayer will liable for much of the damage if there is a loss in court. 

As in Greece, it's an excellent way for a current administration to get around budget restrictions while deferring the cost of a poor decision to a future governor and the citizens of the state.  

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:44 | 3034266 SmittyinLA
SmittyinLA's picture

"Ohio is a balanced-budget state"

LOL so is CA

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:36 | 3034024 blindman
blindman's picture

@" Number 6 - New York Taker ratio: 1.07
Blackout in the Flatiron district after the hurricane. Manhattan still has a vibrant financial sector. Manufacturing there is extinguished. Causes: taxes, unions, regulations and cheap apparel workers abroad. "
comment: priceless, for all other hogs there is master card and a mention of takers. for new york there
is only vibrancy. no mention of the d.c.-wall street
direct injection bailout to sustain said vibrancy
not to mention the aspect of the sector where no
theft or crime goes unrewarded. all vibrancy, unicorns
and a bucket of shite for the union and government
first responders and what not. u know, the welfare
crowd, water rats and whiners getting in the way of
further bailouts, "profit" taking and bonuses for the
i really enjoy the unbiased yet semi scientific
propaganda pieces, they're a gas.

forbes is incapable of perception of the unbiased
truth, incapable of investigating their glaring
bias and the lie that informs their every opinion,
judgement and analysis. it is propaganda displaying
raging ignorance
of the false assumptions concerning their particular
mistaken model of the way the structure of the
world works. h/t a.g..
Greenspan Admits Philisophical Error in "The Warning"
" i found a flaw but i have been very distressed
by that fact .. .a flaw in the model that i perceived is
the critical functioning structure that defines
how the world works, so to speak.." alan greenspan
ben will have the same realization and find the same flaw. it is pathetic and criminal that a 5 minute
conversation with nearly anyone on the street would
reveal the flaw if these people would just come out
of their offices and ivory towers and listen, look
around a little bit, climb a dumpster or two and
see what is in there. take a look in the basement
if you don't want to leave the building.
then again, it wouldn't do for forbes to reveal to
their readership that they too are all on the government
dole/doll (blow-up) and are the most useless parasites in the system.
maybe reveal is too strong, perhaps imply would be
when forbes sites the "cause" above they miss the
mark. (hint-debt based monetary induced speculative
inflation and fraud) resulting from the "vibrancy"
of the financial sector. sheesh, they are ridiculous
, stupid, blood thirsty deceptive and dangerous.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:40 | 3034030 Catullus
Catullus's picture

The People's Republic of Maryland might not be on this list as a ratio of the population. But the amount of money directed to those Takers should be. There's a reason the DC suburbs are some of the richest counties in the US. Hint: there's not a lot of industry around here besides the manufacturing of bullshit.

The call themselves "contractors", but they're really getting government contracts to sub them out.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:41 | 3034035 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Great minds think alike.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:39 | 3034031 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Maine? Alabama? Most of Maryland is employed by the local, state, or the Federal Government. It's why we've been captured by Democrats for 40 years.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:20 | 3034373 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

Wrong...most of Maryland is employed 'indirectly' by the .gov....think contractors and services. Same pot'o money, just different stats.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 01:11 | 3034806 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

??? That's what I said. I've lived here since 1964, I know this personally.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 12:30 | 3035917 aerojet
aerojet's picture

You should say:  "most of the country"--it's not just Maryland, not by a long shot.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:42 | 3034038 muppet_master
muppet_master's picture

meredith whitney


meredith called muni a stinking debt bomb.  I remember the stupid "REPORTERS" called her an idiot !!

NOW who is the IDIOT !!! stupid IDIOTIC "REPORTERS" !!!! ROFLMAO !!!!!!

i didn't need meredith to tell me the muni bond market or the entire market (ponzi scheme) is all a  madoff scheme.  i'm smarter than a 5th grader.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:39 | 3034874 bk1037
bk1037's picture

Well congrats to you with that pat on the back.

I have to wonder if in all reality our 401Ks are IRAs are indeed heading to government one way or the other. Bondholders have had to take a surprisingly small hit on haircuts so far, as the Ponzi scheme perpetuates. At some point, the musical chairs of the buying and selling of government debt instruments will end and it will be a matter of who is left holding the bag when they legislate out what they owe, through Chapter 9 or with legislation. I am very surprised that the Greek multi billion dollar haircut to bondholders has not been employed as a model for other debt refinancing so far, but I am sure it will over time. The party ends when they stop buying the debt, Tyler mentioned its mostly with the Fed now anyway. We all saw how fast the Great Recession began in 2008 with all the bullshit, the governmental obfuscation, and the lack of real solutions to what caused the damn thing in the first place. There are a lot of people living in la la fairy land of denial right now, including the GOP protecting the tax rates of the so-called job creators. What an outrageous crock of shit, the GOP should be held more responsible for what's about to happen, but I agree Obama is overplaying his hand also. What a useless 4 years we have coming up, if the gridlock stays as it is. Tell me what good government initiatives can be considered in this terrible and toxic environment. I am having a very difficult time right now considering the name United States of America, nothing could be further from the actual truth any more short of violence. Thank goodness we have avoided that (so far).

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:51 | 3034063 Tombstone
Tombstone's picture

Title should read:  11 states soon to be bailed out by taxpayers so the takers can keep on taking and remain on friendly terms with The Dictator.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 09:54 | 3035217 therearetoomany...
therearetoomanyidiots's picture

Isn't that kind of 'taking' what started the first civil war? 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:17 | 3034170 SmittyinLA
SmittyinLA's picture

California is much much worse, the speaker of the assembly is an anchorbaby and a gay Communist and cousin of LA's mayor, the governor senile and delusional with classic pre-alzheimer's conditons, the County Assessor from the biggest and highest revenue county in the state (LoS Angeles) is sitting in jail for bribery, cant get bail, and he's also a Mexican national and a flight risk (they're not saying if he's not a citizen).  

The Mexican mafia that runs the CA legislature has spent every dime of revenue they're gonna collect for the next 30 years 2 years ago. 

Any debt sold is pure fraud, we're waaay beyond Greece.

This state is a ponzi scheme, an ongoing criminal enterprise we are madoff.  O I forget our septagenarian treasurer Bill Lockyer, he has a 30s meth head wife, who was a county supervisor. 

Many of those bonds offered have the LA County Assessor's signature on the offering papers, what are the odds he cooked the books a lil?



Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:54 | 3034291 Tod E. Tosspot
Tod E. Tosspot's picture

The stuff about Lockyer's wife was so over the top I was tempted to write it off as the irresponsible ranting of a frustrated Angelino. But a quick web search shows it's true! LMFAO. 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:24 | 3034198 TruthBeforeAll
TruthBeforeAll's picture

Illinois only #9? I guess they aren't counting State Employee Pension recipients as takers.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:58 | 3034788 ejhickey
ejhickey's picture

i was surprised too by Illinois' rating.  i thought we would be near the top.   for the average cook county household, their share of the state's and the county's debt is about $50000.  y guess is taxes will rise in the near future

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:30 | 3034222 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

I have news for everyone............the US needs austerity for these worthless fucking public workers in every state.  Everythings gone to hell for the avg person who works for a living while these puke fucks are cramming huge property tax bills up everyone's ass so they keep driving around in their brand new cadillac and $125 turtleneck.  It's not fucking hard to have a full, vibrant lifestyle when you only work 2 out of 8 hours everday.  Get rid of these motherfuckers.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:33 | 3034230 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Of course then you'll be left with the greediness of the state who will shit like fire all the cops that they can't afford then hire 3x as many for 1/3 the pay.

There's just no fucking winning this until shit flys apart and is to the point no one can save it.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:59 | 3034311 ozziindaus
ozziindaus's picture

Whoohoo Michigan didn't make a list for a change

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:53 | 3034497 blindman
blindman's picture

"US debt is largely fictitious"

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 01:08 | 3034803 francis_the_won...
francis_the_wonder_hamster's picture

I've mentioned before, I live and don't own in SoCal.  If someone bothered to compile how bad the comparative states were for those in my situation, I'm sure Cali's suckitude would still rank high.

Is suckitude the right word?  Suckability?  Suckivity?  Suckulence?  Please help, as my ability to withstand the BS might be enhanced if there were proper wordspeak for it.

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