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Guest Post: Thought Experiment: Why Obama Wants The Fiscal Cliff

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Submitted by Lance Roberts of Street Talk Live,

 


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Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:04 | Link to Comment becky quick and...
becky quick and her beautiful mouth's picture

and the problem is that that 80% turns out to vote in huge numbers. we should go back to only land owners being allowed to vote.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:09 | Link to Comment PersonalRespons...
PersonalResponsibility's picture

OT: WTF is with this liftathon taking place?

Did BB just fat-finger cntrl-p?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:24 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Don't just mention tax increases; if you're going to throw grandma off the cliff, do it more thusly with lots of thust-ly...

...to wit, there is a movement to revise the CPI again, because....and I swear on all that is holy that this is accurate and there's a serious proposal on the table....

....the current BLS  methodology OVERSTATES INFLATION.

New Inflation Gauge Would Cut Benefits, Hike Taxes : NPR

The inflation measure under consideration is called the Chained Consumer Price Index. On average, the measure shows a lower level of inflation than the more widely used Consumer Price Index.

 

The chained CPI assumes that as prices rise, consumers turn to lower-cost alternatives, reducing the amount of inflation they experience. For example, if the price of beef increases while the price of pork does not, people will buy more pork.

I have a better idea: If you're cold, just sleep outside in the snow, and you'll fall into a warm lull harkening death. That'll cut expenses. Substitute that. If you're hungry, forget substituting pork for beef or tomato paste for tomatoes, and instead of buying and eating those food subsitutions, don't. You'll really save some money that way. Screw medical coverage/treatment and driving. You don't really need to see the doctor & you can walk to wherever you're going - cha-ching, money in the bank. 

Who needs to purchase food or energy, highly volatile & highly discretionary "things" that they are, anyways, am I right?

This tells me (this being this noisy announcement via National Propaganda Radio) that they are floating this to see how much backlash there will be and to prepare the sheeples' minds, B.F. Skinner style, for more, bigger lies and bullshit.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:28 | Link to Comment pemdas
pemdas's picture

Romney said, "When I'm elected, I will put Americans back to work," and 51% said, "Fuck That!!"  

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:49 | Link to Comment Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

And you believed him?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:21 | Link to Comment economics9698
economics9698's picture

The fiscal cliff is a public relations battle to see which party will get the blame for the recession that is happening now.

Obama does not want an agreement so he can blame Republicans for the recession.

The press will blame Republicans no matter what happens.

It’s another bull shit show, not even interesting.

If the Republicans had a pair they would tell Obama to shove it up his skinny black ass and take an early Christmas break. Meanwhile the real fall out is already happening in Europe and will reach the USA, say, September 2013 or so give or take a few months.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:37 | Link to Comment economics9698
economics9698's picture

"The negative impacts of rising taxes and sharply reduced government spending will seriously erode economic prosperity.

Lance Roberts another clueless idiot who thinks he understands economics.

Y = C + I – G + NX.

The sooner we get less government the better the economy will be.

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 16:17 | Link to Comment Snoopy the Economist
Snoopy the Economist's picture

Gov't spending is the only thing keeping this crappy economy afloat. So what is Lance's error then? Of course I agree with the theory of smaller gov't must that is only a fantasy at this point.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 16:37 | Link to Comment economics9698
economics9698's picture

The idea that government spending “helps” the economy is propaganda.  Government borrows (moving money from the left pocket to the right pocket), taxes (moving money from the left pocket to the right pocket), or prints (moving money from the left pocket to the right pocket via inflation).

This involves removing money from the private sector to the public sector where, on average, 55 cents on the dollar disappears.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 23:55 | Link to Comment audiorbit
audiorbit's picture

Agreed. The private sector just cannot compete with central bank fiat in the age on infinite sovereign debt issues. As more money is printed, more govt bonds are purchased by the central banks, so more and more sectors of the economy will be zombified into inefficient, broken, useless government supported quasi businesses. People will wake up one day once the economy is totally fucked, but by then it will be way too late. Competing with the state will be basically impossible if not illegal.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 05:27 | Link to Comment Snoopy the Economist
Snoopy the Economist's picture

OK - I think we all agree on that. I'm sure Lance understands this simple concept as well - so why do you bah Lance.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:03 | Link to Comment marathonman
marathonman's picture

Lance is not a clueless idiot, but he is not a typical ZeroHedge type.  He's a conservative asset advisor with an investing talk radio show on AM in Houston.  His website is streettalklive.com.  He's got good stuff, but he discounts the capacity for economic collapse that is embraced (even welcomed) here on ZeroHedge. 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:36 | Link to Comment Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

We're all dead by December 22 anyway, so BUCK FARACK.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:18 | Link to Comment James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

Man-up Republicans, just say,  "We were wrong about the Bush Tax cuts and we will remove them for everyone.   But to combat the impact, a Volt in every garage and an EBT card for every household!"

Stupid is as Stupid does, the rules have changed.

 

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:00 | Link to Comment Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

7 down arrows at this point.  Hmm....  Caliing out Romney as a liar does not mean Obummer is a truth teller.  I thought the general ZH community understood this without allucidation.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:24 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Logic was never a strong suit of some of the denizens here...

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 23:58 | Link to Comment audiorbit
audiorbit's picture

The in-group out-group evolutionary bias has a powerful effect on all members of the species.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:52 | Link to Comment yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Actually, 51% said, "I don't believe you."

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:57 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

maybe 51% of the people who bothered to vote...

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:17 | Link to Comment NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

Well, they're the only ones that count.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:19 | Link to Comment economics9698
economics9698's picture

 

NWA in the WH.

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:26 | Link to Comment caconhma
caconhma's picture

This article is POS trying to continue an old con game of Republicans vs Democrats.

I thought we have already settled this issue: the both main political Parties in America are no much different from each other  and serve as a smoke screen for imbecile-citizens.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:33 | Link to Comment aheady
aheady's picture

Bingo.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:08 | Link to Comment robobbob
robobbob's picture

True, but there are still factions on both sides who haven't gotten the memo. They still insist on offering legitimate solutions to problems that don't involve enslaving the american people. their idealism will impede the all powerful central state, so at some point they, or at least TPTB created strawman caricatures, must be tarred, feathered, ridiculed, and discredited, and driven out so the people will turn their masters for help instead of seeking alternatives.

Hegalian dialectic needs opposing views to function.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 21:08 | Link to Comment AvoidingTaxation
AvoidingTaxation's picture

Is not who votes that count, is who count the votes.

Stalin

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 21:54 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

The only one that count are those who count the votes. Diebold.

....bytchez!

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:13 | Link to Comment jwoop66
jwoop66's picture

Said, "I don't believe you, but I DO trust that blatant fraud."

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:30 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I'm for sure not an expert on American politics, but isn't it all political theather? honest question

There is no advantage at all for the Dems & the Prez in changing anything and "avoiding the fiscal cliff" that I can see, but of course they have to appear as if willing to compromise - perhaps to a face-saving cosmetic Christmas present

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:51 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

“the path towards completing Obama's long term objectives”

Any ass-clown that would advocate for electricity rates to “skyrocket” at any time.. for reasons of social planning.. is contemptuous to American freedom and is intent on “fundamentally transforming” America into a collectivist hell.

But then, that’s only my personal and obviously unenlightened opinion.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:29 | Link to Comment Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

Obama doesn't have long term objectives for the U.S., let's all keep in mind he is merely a puppet.  The real problem with this article is that it doesn't ask what interests are served by "going over the cliff", ie., who stands to benefit from the provisions set to automatically take place, particularly keeping in mind that one false flag invalidates the defense spending cut.  

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:37 | Link to Comment Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Obama = community activist = ward heeler. He knows as much about running the US government as the janitor knows about running a nuclear power plant.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 16:12 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

Interestingly enough, there probably are at least a couple of people who used to work at running a nuclear power plant that are now janitors in this economy.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:40 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Yes. Theater of the highest order, as ordered by those highest, even if the acting truly sucks, the plot is epicly horrendous, and anyone with an IQ above 90 would demand a refund and break some shit on their way out of the theater for being cheated out of time that they could have used to do something else...like take a dump.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:45 | Link to Comment Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

"The use of economic pain to expand governmental control of a nation is not a new concept."

Neither are false flags and wars.  War is/has been a way to control the domestic agenda.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:53 | Link to Comment Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Theater indeed.  Increasing INCOME taxes won't do squat.  They wealthy don't pay much INCOME tax at all.  Insn't Uncle Warren Buffets salary like $100k/year?  He gets the rest of his "income" from other means.......dividends, stocks, etc.  Taxing couples who make $250k/year is a joke.  And you have to earn $325k/year just to have the same earning power that $250k/year had when the so called Bush tax cuts were enacted.  They don't live like Uncle Warren does.  All you are doing is putting a lid on any upward mobility.  Those wealthy already have the wealth, raising the INCOME tax won't cut into that at all.

And any so called tax increase will just be another excuse to spend EVEN MOAR money!!

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:08 | Link to Comment Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

50,000+/-  pages of tax code is the key and it's not about fairness.

The whole system has been taken over by those who can buy it.  Nothing new here.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:16 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

The "Bush tax cuts" expiry would dramatically increase Capital Gains and Dividend Income rates, though.  The income tax increase isn't nearly as dramatic.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:33 | Link to Comment Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

"would dramatically increase Capital Gains and Dividend Income rates, though."

For those stupid enough to still have onshore assets, sure.  How does that affect the tens of trillions held safely offshore?

Additionally consider whether cap gains would even apply if everyone ends up eating a shit sandwich vis a vie a market drop due to "going over the cliff". 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:29 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Um.  Huh?

Yeah, I realize shit is fucked up and bullshit, I was just pointing out for Scotty that the real impact of the tax-changes from failing to reach a compromise has a far bigger impact on those other tax-rates, not income tax.

He sounded misinformed on that.  We have a massive entertainment industry dedicated to misinformation, though, so it's not like it's entirely his fault.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:40 | Link to Comment glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

It's all BS anyway, it really doesn't measure the cost of maintaining a certain standard of living. The dilutions, adjustments and substitutions really just make it a worthless measure IMO. I think John Williams has done a good job of proving that already.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:00 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Please don't talk with your mouth full of iPad2 (or iPad mini).

Thank you.

 

-William Dudley

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 20:37 | Link to Comment rayduh4life
rayduh4life's picture

Ah, yes but, all governments rule by two things - Fraud and Force.  If you completely unveil the fraud, that only leaves them the Force.  Hence the sheeple always opting for the Big Lie.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:12 | Link to Comment Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

Land owners?  Well, that's only about 200.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:46 | Link to Comment holdingontomypants
holdingontomypants's picture

Good timing for me as I just made my last payment on a piece of property I bought last year up in the mountains 1,000 yards from a lake and plenty of elk and deer. Now for the next phase and start my building.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:45 | Link to Comment Bad Attitude
Bad Attitude's picture

Don't forget defenses. In the middle of nowhere, no one can hear you scream.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 16:15 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

Last payment?  No property taxes?  Are you SURE that was your LAST payment?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 00:06 | Link to Comment Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

Land owners in the USA?  There are none.  If you dont pay property tax (erhm I mean rent) what happens to that land you "own"?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:46 | Link to Comment Hippocratic Oaf
Hippocratic Oaf's picture

go back to only land owners being allowed to vote.

 

How bout just those who've paid taxes since the last election WITH an ID?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:54 | Link to Comment yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

That would rule me out, so no.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:37 | Link to Comment Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

And why is that a problem?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:02 | Link to Comment MFLTucson
MFLTucson's picture

Lets go all the way back and only allow men to vote.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:19 | Link to Comment Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

Sorry for asking but... does anyone here knows a woman who understands gold, except for jewelry purposes?

Truly, from what I know, I am amazed by the gap of interest about finance and economics between males and females. And not surprisingly, lefties get the women's vote in every instance, no matter the country.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:27 | Link to Comment aheady
aheady's picture

Sorry for answering but... go fuck yourself.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:38 | Link to Comment Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

You first.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:59 | Link to Comment aheady
aheady's picture

No, after you. I insist.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 16:16 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

Ann Barnhardt (a female) appears to understand gold the best I can tell.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:13 | Link to Comment Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Too many people with a dick use it as their major cognitive organ.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:09 | Link to Comment Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

Becky Quick said:

and the problem is that that 80% turns out to vote in huge numbers. we should go back to only land owners being allowed to vote.

 

Well...why stop there?  Let's bring back the 3/5 Compromise and juice that landowner vote up a bit.

 

Go back to sucking Buffett's dick Becky.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:11 | Link to Comment Confundido
Confundido's picture

"...Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?

When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept. Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. Yet Brutus says he was ambitious, And Brutus is an honorable man. You all did see that on the Lupercal I thrice presented him a kingly crown, Which he did thrice refuse. Was this ambition?...:
Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:31 | Link to Comment WezTheJuic
WezTheJuic's picture

Running an experiment Becky?

Pens,

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:06 | Link to Comment SmoothCoolSmoke
SmoothCoolSmoke's picture

and low taxes on the 1% creates jobs .....right?  Tired of that disproven lie.

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:22 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

Smooth,
Morally, it doesn't matter if any jobs are created or not.  Theft is theft.  Your moral compass is more than slightly askew if you think your decision on from whom to steal being made based upon the wealth of your mark somehow makes it virtuous.  You're no different than a petty criminal in that respect (petty criminals know there's more loot to be had from richer people), except that you don't even have the cajones to do it yourself.  You prefer to hide anonymously in a mob like a gutless coward and then preach to us about how virtuous you are after having robbed other people of the fruits of their labor.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:33 | Link to Comment yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Taxation is not theft.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:04 | Link to Comment Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

Hey I think you just wrote the sequel to 1984.

War is peace. Slavery is freedom. Ignorance is strenght...

...and Taxation is not Theft.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:35 | Link to Comment Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

If taxation is not theft

And inflation is not taxation

Then inflation is not theft.

Do I get a job at the Fed now?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:40 | Link to Comment Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

 

If I'm not able to refuse payment, then yes, it is theft.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:29 | Link to Comment Bwahaha WAGFDSMB
Bwahaha WAGFDSMB's picture

I'll grant that taxation is theft, if you'll grant that all income derived from ownership is theft.  Rent, interest, profits, and dividends are all theft.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:43 | Link to Comment Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

Fail.  One can choose to not rent, not buy a product and not contribute to profits.  But I am forced to pay taxes on pain of forfeiture and/or prison.  Again, if I can't refuse to pay taxes just like I refuse to pay for a defective product, than it is theft.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:25 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Do you consider inflation theft?  Debasing the very currency in which the value of your labor is stored without your consent or knowledge seems a bit more like a real fucking criminal form of theft.  Pull your head out of your ass.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:16 | Link to Comment Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Fiat currency itself is theft. That is its major purpose. When government creates the money, it gets to set the financial stage.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:35 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

You can do what rich people and dirt poor people do and have no taxable income.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:49 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

You'll "grant" that taxation (coerced confiscation) is theft, if I'll "grant" that rent, interest, et al (voluntary payment upon voluntarily agreed upon terms) is theft?  How logically ridiculous of you!  LOL

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:11 | Link to Comment MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

You don't have to go there per se...  that's overstretching a bit...  all income derived from ownership is not theft, however a substantial portion of it is given the public/private marriage/bailout system, inside information, exchange protected trading, etc.  It is necessary to differentiate between sources and types of income to ensure you do not fall prey to the mob mentality.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:40 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

With an individual's just property, it is nobody's business as to what the income is or isn't as it pertains to his property, unless the owner voluntarily agrees to share the information, so differentiation is not necessary unless the property owner wishes to do so for economic accounting, or in the case that some non-owning entity is coercing the information from the property owner against his will, which in that case it is unethical, and should be illegal.

 

See if you can read that sentence out loud without taking a breath?  ;-)  LOL

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:10 | Link to Comment MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Nice slight of hand.  

"With an individual's just property..."

So...  begs the question...  how do we determine whether the property is "justly" obtained if disclosure is impossible?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 18:56 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

Rothbard outlines just property in Ethics of Liberty and why it is important that this question be answered properly.  I'll refer you to his work for a rigorous treatment of just property rights.  As to your butchery of basic logic, why do you assume that disclosure is impossible?  Regarding ownership, if there is nobody who disputes a person's ownership of property, then that should be sufficient until such time as another's claim on said property is presented.  If there is a dispute regarding ownership, then there are legal means to resolve the question of just ownership.  See, that wasn't that hard now, was it?

 

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:15 | Link to Comment MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The problem with your thesis is that it ignores the present situation of the legal and enforcement system.  As it stands, there is no legal mechanism in which to enforce the legal framework and, thus, it is patently impossible to determine whether property obtained is "justly" obtained.  In other words, if there is no mechanism of forced disclosure (e.g. getting hauled to court), then it's an inherent non-starter...  the system cannot recoup any illicit gains or curtail any illicit practices.

I'll also ask what planet you're living on to think that there is no one that claims virtually all the property of another?  It's a zero sum game...  actually, it's worse than a zero sum game because the pie is shrinking.  Think how the phrase getting "corzined" was developed...  or south park's "and it's gone..."  It's disingenuous for you to ignore...

Effectively, your thesis simply boils down to might makes right...  which has been thoroughly discredited ages ago.  This academic bubble from which you pontificate is completely and totally not fit for the real world.  Maybe if we were creating a new system with all the constraints (all else equal) implemented for your thesis to hold water, then and only then would it be practical to discuss...  until that day, welcome to the party...  and, given your thesis, welcome to the consequences of enticing the mob...  it will behave in reckless and arbitrary fashion to enforce "social justice".

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 22:50 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

"Effectively, your thesis simply boils down to might makes right... "

 

Sigh, your reading comprehension skills are lower than your critical thinking skills.  The basic axiom of Libertarianism is the non-aggression principle.  Get back to me when you can square that with what you said above.  Until then, no more casting pearls before swine for me.

GLTY

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 11:16 | Link to Comment MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

First, you can speak in vaguaries and generalities all you want...  you're not backing up your original thesis nor have you addressed any of my criticisms of your thesis.  The only thing you've managed to post is an ad hominem.

Second, presuming that your views somehow coincide perfectly with libertarianism, there are still incredibly large issues with the concept (some of which were stated in my post).  The implementation of less control, at this juncture, does nothing to cure past or present wrongs.  The market simply has no answer.  (neither does the textbook; it's time to apply theories to the real world).

Third, libertarianism is nearest anarchy on the spectrum between anarchy and socialism.  Inherently, some type of collective control (government) is necessary to ensure that might does not make right [albeit a bit of a conundrum since government is vested with the right to make might].  While libertarianism might protect physical ills associated with disparate social powers, we certainly can't say the same for socio economic status and the fair treatment of labor.  Coercion through economic control is the kissing cousin of slavery.  I'm not sure this is even capable of reasonable dispute at this juncture...  [hint: you have better arguments in the toolbox]. 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:42 | Link to Comment Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

"I'll grant that taxation is theft, if you'll grant that all income derived from ownership is theft.  Rent, interest, profits, and dividends are all theft."

A fair exchange is no robbery. If you receive value for money in a voluntary exchange how is that theft?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:14 | Link to Comment MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

If all economic actions were simply a meeting of the minds between voluntary participants, then we would not even need to have the discussion...  the economy would be humming like an old sewing machine.  [hint: necessities; propaganda; education; etc.]

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:04 | Link to Comment Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Turin,

Let's make sure we differentiate between legit wealth and this wealth. That is those who actually did something of value to earn vs. wall street/DC cronyism.

 

Cause I will fucking rob steal and murder the latter once this facade finally falls away along with my mob.

 

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:34 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

Almost,

Implicit in my position is just property rights.  Rothbard explicity makes the important case for just property rights in his excellent book Ethics of Liberty.  I'll be more aware of including "just" in the future so as to tighten up my position.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:41 | Link to Comment Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

I thought so. Just checking.

:)

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:42 | Link to Comment yabyum
yabyum's picture

Smooth, The 1% have had these tax breaks for years.....where are the fucking jobs?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:25 | Link to Comment Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

Sorry that in your mind, things should be as so simple as to work under a function like (tax rate) -> (employment).

Once upon a time there was a guy who wanted to start a business in a low-tax state. Then he looked at the quadrillion pages of contradictory regulations which he would have had to comply with under the federal, state, municipal and regolatory levels. Then he changed his plan.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:36 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

India?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 16:25 | Link to Comment Snoopy the Economist
Snoopy the Economist's picture

Smooth,

Please show me the last job created by a poor person. Don't even bring up gov't jobs.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:06 | Link to Comment Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Yep. Obama is a marxist. Any questions?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:08 | Link to Comment SmoothCoolSmoke
SmoothCoolSmoke's picture

and who do you think gave Marx his start?

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:20 | Link to Comment Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-spying-e-mail-citizens-178/ ... you did by not saying anything was wrong.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:14 | Link to Comment NooooB
NooooB's picture

I am a Groucho Marxist... That is all...

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:43 | Link to Comment yabyum
yabyum's picture

I am a John Lennonist myself.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:51 | Link to Comment hidingfromhelis
hidingfromhelis's picture

Imagine that!

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:45 | Link to Comment Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Yeah, a Marxist whose family has worked for the CIA for 3 generations. A Marxist who sucks up to the biggest banks, corporations, unions and government agencies at the expense of the common people. Some Marxist.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:06 | Link to Comment NEOSERF
NEOSERF's picture

Well the market right now is pretty clear that because two guys are talking and Obama goes to Hawaii on vacation starting Dec 17, this is getting done today..

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:19 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

Meanwhile patriot missles being installed in Turkey, U.S. aircraft carrier group arrives off the coast of syria...  the House of Reps passes the NDAA yesterday that includes instructions that the administration put together intervention plans....  nothing to see here... 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:18 | Link to Comment caconhma
caconhma's picture

The US Congress is a bunch of clowns. It is another Kabuki show. They decide close to nothing.  They are paid servants to the Banking Mafia.

Somebody writes for them all the legislations and tells them how to vote and in what sequence. There is a certain amount of money provided to the Congress members (they fight for between each other) to reward themselves for their performance and to assure their next reelection.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:07 | Link to Comment surf0766
surf0766's picture

Why? So the transformation can be completed !

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:11 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

"Never let a good crisis go to waste."

 

I know, I know.  The term "fiscal cliff" is absurdly hyperbolic.  Still, it won't be good for the economy, Then again, sometimes you've got to break a few eggs to make an omelette.  Right Barry?

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:12 | Link to Comment Lewshine
Lewshine's picture

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....Anyone seeing the indexes?? So, are we to understand that HUSSEIN'S speech to business leaders was so promising that the market could nothing but rocket??? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...This country is in shambles.

I wasn't a racist before Obama.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:17 | Link to Comment NooooB
NooooB's picture

Just got to make that third little hump.. Then  WOOSH!!!!

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:58 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

re: being racist...   I call Bullshit....  in spades (pun intended)....

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:19 | Link to Comment BraveSirRobin
BraveSirRobin's picture

I hate to say it, but Republicans should give Obama what he wants, thus giving him full and complete ownership of the results.

The base will be furious, but, their anger will shift back to Obama and the Democrats quickly, especially if they can blame it on the leadership and not rank and file members.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:01 | Link to Comment Mercury
Mercury's picture

The system will implode (a good thing at this point) before the Left blames themselves or Obama for anything. 

If it's not Batista's I'm sure Cuba's sorry condition it's still someone else's fualt in Castro's eyes but nonetheless he has been successfully swapping GDP for government domination for over 60 years now.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:19 | Link to Comment tooriskytoinvest
tooriskytoinvest's picture

Deflation In An Age of Fiat Currency: US Equities Will Have To Fall By More Than 60%. Now Is The Time To Own Cash. Everyone Will Worry About “Default”, Unfunded Liabilities, Tax Hikes and Austerity, Currency Wars in 2013.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/deflation-in-an-age-of-fiat-currency-us-equities-will-have-to-fall-by-more-than-60-now-is-the-time-to-own-cash-everyone-will-worry-about-default-unfunded-liabilities-tax-hikes-and-austerity/

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:31 | Link to Comment JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

If equities fall by 10%, Uncle Ben will be buying equities - say, $40 to $50 billion a month.

Never short a manipulated market.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:19 | Link to Comment dcj98gst
dcj98gst's picture

I say we let him have what ever he wants.  Say we are against it but let him own what is comming.  We are looking at a recession either way.  If Obama owns the downturn hopefully it will wake people up to the real issues.

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

What part of the eCONomy takes the biggest hit if the "Fiscal Cliff" is fallen off of?

Honest question.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:24 | Link to Comment youngman
youngman's picture

Retail sales...the consumer will have less money...and fewer jobs....tax revenues too....but the deficit will do very well..hitting new highs

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:24 | Link to Comment Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

defense industry

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:41 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I'd argue that the self defense industry will (and is) do quite well.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 16:24 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

entitlement payments to the masses

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:35 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Womyn and Chidrenz, of course.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:22 | Link to Comment youngman
youngman's picture

The problem if the Republicans do that..the press will bury them....it will all be the Republicans fault....don´t you think the Press will lie for the Obama....

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:21 | Link to Comment Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

The 'Press' will lie for the status quo. That is their new role. Obama is currently the status quo.

"If you want to work in this newsroom, you'll bark when the other dogs bark."

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:23 | Link to Comment Bear
Bear's picture

For all you who said it didn't matter who we elected as President ... You were WRONG

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:11 | Link to Comment Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Because it hasn't crashed yet or that Romney would've fixed it by now? 

 

Patience my son, patience

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:24 | Link to Comment lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Why? So he can be BO I, Dictator for Life, and get one of those cool Idi Amin kinda uniforms to impress fellow hood rats.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:50 | Link to Comment moonman
moonman's picture

Those Ugandans did have some nice threads

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:24 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

If the republicans were smart( I know a funny statement ) they would say" yep you won Mr. President, here you go everything you asked for" then let it all crash and burn around him. Of course being republicans they will still continue to let this guy run circles around them.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:49 | Link to Comment goodrich4bk
goodrich4bk's picture

I like the comment but think it wouldn't work out so well for them.  They would be blamed for a recession that would have probably happended anyway.

No, I think our politicians are very close to arriving at the point where there are no good choices and the can cannot be kicked further.  The evidence for this is the hilarious schizophrenia concerning the deficit and the fiscal cliff.  One day the deficit is the most dangerous problem that needs to be addressed, otherwise growth will stall and we'll go into a recession.  The next day the cure for the deficit --- increasing taxes and decreasing expenses --- is the most dangerous problem that needs to be addressed, otherwise growth will stall and we'll go into a recession.

The net difference between deficit reduction from the cliff ($600 billion in 2013) and deficit reduction under Obama or Boehner ($180 - 200 billion) is about $400 billion in a $15 trillion economy.  That's a 3% clip and it reduces the deficit by half.  If, as our masters are telling us, a 3% clip and a 50% cut in the deficit is too much to bear, they are admitting we are in much worse shape than is widely believed.

Then again, when I look at the rising market, all appears well.  And THAT is why people are simply not buying the masters' fear mongering.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:12 | Link to Comment Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

We also have to place ourselves into the mind of a RINO such as those leading the GOP. They think that there must always be some compromise made against freedom because unlike Ron Paul, they don't see the free market as a workable system on its own. Thus for lefties, it's not a matter of convincing the GOP to go their way, but merely a matter of degree or of how far they can have them go.

And most of all, they want to be a part of the grand annoucement that will fix this crisis.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:26 | Link to Comment Inthemix96
Inthemix96's picture

The bamster is a cunt.

A mouth piece, telepromted by other nefarious fuckers from elsewhere.  Thats all this skiny waste of a human skin is.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:49 | Link to Comment Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Obama = community organizer = ward heeler. He knows as much about running the USA as the janitor knows about running a nuclear reactor.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:00 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

What, did you lose a bet with Homer?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:27 | Link to Comment LucasATX
LucasATX's picture

Classic -

"For the bulk of America it still remains "Bush's" fault that their current situation is not as good as it was once, regardless of their personal irresponsibility, and the Democratic media machine will effectively point the finger of blame squarely at the Republicans." 

The bulk of America is not responsible for the mess we are in.

Fraud - primarily banker driven fraud is responsible for crashing the financial system.

The housing crisis was a symptom not the cause of the financial crisis. Stop banging that Fox News drum.

Republicans are no different than Democrats. The bulk of Americans are starting to get this fact.

And rich banker, if you are not going to spend some time in jail, at least pay some higher taxes.

 

  

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:41 | Link to Comment irie1029
irie1029's picture

Agree with all but "bulk of Americans are starting to get this fact."  If that was the case the 3rd party vote would have been greater.  Bulk of Americans are pathetic sheeple.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:08 | Link to Comment hidingfromhelis
hidingfromhelis's picture

Look at how many people voted for Obamney in order to keep Rombama out of office.  Few people I know were enthusiastic about either one, but virtually all of them had a reason to vote to keep the other one from winning, as if it matters who our puppet in chief is.  The success of the "anybody but...." meme just goes to show how well the programming is working.  

Now the decline continues with approximately half the population saying, "Phew, what a relief that the other guy wasn't elected." while the other half gets to keep its undies in a perpetual bundle...exactly as it would be if the other puppet was elected. 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:35 | Link to Comment Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Do Americans remember as far back as Bush II? I find it doubtful.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

How sad. The author is clearly a republican. Rebublicans suck every bit as hard as democrats. There is, in reality, virtually no difference since they both answer to the same masters - which are not the voters by the way. As long as we play along with their "repubs vs dems" game of divide and conquer, we lose and they win. The republican's mantra of small gov and personal freedom is bullshit. They have repeatedly done exactly the opposite at nearly every opportunity. And the dems crap about "we are for the middle class" is just as big a pile of nonsensical tripe as they continue to absolutely destroy said middle class, as they have done in the past. Our government is bought and paid for by TPTB. Period. End of story.

I am long guns, ammo, and PMs.

If the s truly hits the f, I can obtain whatever else I need with the above.

Personally, I feel the most likely outcome is a global war initiated by China. Only time will tell............

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:38 | Link to Comment Zer0head
Zer0head's picture

instead of assigning a political label to the author, why not just respond to his thesis? 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/04/us-constitution-and-...

Laptop seizures are far from the only tactic employed by the US government to put government opponents in a state of fear and thus deter others from engaging in similar dissident conduct. That is also the aim of measures such as the unprecedented persecution of whistleblowers;

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:10 | Link to Comment Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

I did not "apply" the label, I merely stated the obvious. He applied the label to himself by writing clearly biased gibberish.

And as far as his thesis goes.......well, I am pretty sure my Magic 8 Ball would provide an every bit as accurate prediction. His thesis is based entirely on unconfirmable conjecture. Does Obama want to go over the fiscal cliff? I do not know. You do not know. The author does not know. Does Boehner want to go over the fiscal cliff? Same answers. Pretending to know the unknowable should be left to religious zealots - not journalists.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:26 | Link to Comment Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Whenever a 'journalist' jumps into "Asshole A believes this, but Asshole B thinks that," we have entered 'The Bullshit Zone.' Unless, of course, said 'journalist' has established itself as a reliable mindreader.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:09 | Link to Comment ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

When will Jon Corzine be persecuted?  I mean...Obama is now a lame duck...so it really wouldn't matter if he hosed Corzine.  Corzine can't do him any more good.  Unless of course Obama - like Clinton - wants to amend the Constitution so that he can be president to eternity.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 17:27 | Link to Comment Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Corzine is already being persecuted mercilessly right here on ZH.

Prosecution, however, will be delayed until Jesus returns to personally usher Jon to the bowels of Hell.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:07 | Link to Comment ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

Good planning.

I think that the Pub's card is to cave to Obama.  Give him TWICE the tax hikes on the rich that he wanted - and then demand a 15% cut in social/welfare payments.  You know - make Obama keep the promise of his 2008 campaign - to cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term.

In general, Pubs and Dems are the same.  There is one difference: the Dems will shamelessly engage in character assination and truth distortion, while Pubs always behave like the kid who gets the s&^t kicked out of him by the bullies in the school yard.  Ann Coulter writes about this - the Pubs having no nuts. Not that I am a big Coulter fan, but she has a sharp wit.  Gingrich was a little pit bull.  He had traction.  I also despised him.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 21:26 | Link to Comment Sparkey
Sparkey's picture

Congratulations CHANCELS, For many their emotional expression is confined to loving or hating the characters the media presents them with, this is a good thing, it diffuses energy which could be problematic if exposed in real interpersonal exchanges, that is why, I, of many love Snooki with a wild abandon, Who do you love? or do you confine yourself to despising?

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:31 | Link to Comment lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

At least, before we are all shot by the DHS, we'll know exactly how the  Russians felt when the communists came for them way back in 1917.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:59 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Forget the meds again?

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 16:34 | Link to Comment PoliticalRefuge...
PoliticalRefugeefromCalif.'s picture

You know flacko you seem to have a problem with reality.. what will it take to get your attention?

Seems like you are running short of aluminum foil yourself.

fuckin shill.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 00:58 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Some simple questions:

Is Obama to the right or left of Nixon? Eisenhower? Carter? Bush I?

How many Marxist states currently exist? How many can you name?

Can you name three Fascist states?

Define Social Democracy.

Have taxes been raised or cut since Obama took office?

If you can reply to the above questions, I may start paying attention to you. Otherwise STFU...

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:26 | Link to Comment Tirpitz
Tirpitz's picture

Did you ever visit a revolutionary museum, comrade? The enslaved Russian peasants were freed by our Bolshevik friends and gladly joined their freedom movement.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:35 | Link to Comment Pairadimes
Pairadimes's picture

"Hit something hard. I don't want to limp away from this piece of shit." - Ron White

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRJpRu2RsSs

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:40 | Link to Comment Zola
Zola's picture

To all the pro Romney conservatives reading this :  THANK YOU BUNCH OF MORONS for nominating such an idiotic, useless candidate to go against the WEAKEST incumbent since CARTER. You can look yourselves in the mirror and KNOW you are the ones responsible for this state of affairs. TWICE in 2008 and 2012 there was an opportunity to turn this thing around and TWICE the sheeps like you have voted for a DEMOCRAT as a republican candidate. May God have mercy on your souls.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:45 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I agree with the bulk of your post , I do have a minor disagreement though. I don't think we could have turned this pig around. I think there was too much damage done. We could have had a better steward with Ron Paul to help pick up the pieces though.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:01 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Quit with the RP pity party...

He would be saddled with two dysfunctional legislative houses.....

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:24 | Link to Comment Tirpitz
Tirpitz's picture

Couldn't RPEOs save the day, and the entire nation? Ron Paul's Executive Orders - the favorite way to govern for GWB and even more so BHO.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:27 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I'd rather have a person with some integrity at the helm when tis ship goes down rather than this POS,but I suppose you are happy with our current selection.

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