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Santelli Sums It Up In 10 Words: "Debt Ceiling Is Not The Problem. Debt Is The Problem"

Tyler Durden's picture


Since the 2nd Liberty Act of 1917 birthed the debt ceiling, due to issues financing USA's entry into World War I, CNBC's Rick Santelli notes that there has been many documented 'violations'. However, as Rick so vociferously points out President Obama's comment yesterday on the debt limit and highlights the fact that "to have an unlimited amount of money to call upon is too much power power for one person. It's always in our country been about checks and balances but I think this administration just wants more checks and no balancing of the checkbook." Rick is right, of course, and the current diatribe from Geithner and Obama yesterday on the possible 'removal' of the debt limit beggars belief - and yet has become a negotiating point to be 'traded'. While some argue the premise of the debt limit for a reserve currency nation is nonsense, Santelli sums it perfectly in ten little words: "Debt Ceiling Is Not The Problem. Debt Is The Problem," adding the debt ceiling, as we have pointed out regularly, is an important (perhaps the most important) issue facing us currently (and inseparable from the supposed 'austerity' of the fiscal cliff - lower spending growth not lower spending).




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Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:05 | 3039719 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



The law is not the problem, the lawmakers are the problem.


You first, Mr. President.

Start with a 50% tax on all bribes campaign contributions.

I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you wanna make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself and then make a change.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:06 | 3039731 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

The morons in Washington CAN'T think for themselves, but in this case they don't need to. All they need to do is look at Greece.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:21 | 3039802 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

The debt and the lawmakers are both our problem, different sides of the same coin.  Debt IS a huge problem, I thank Rick Santelli and Tyler Durden for rubbing our faces in this.  If debt is such a huge, yet intractable, problem, then what is the solution?  Hint: it ain´t from Washington.

The solution is physical gold.  Look out for No. 1!


Quality bearings outside of the USA run a close second!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:10 | 3040035 TruthInSunshine
Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:44 | 3040162 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Hopelessly Deranged


Thu, 12/06/2012 - 19:05 | 3040860 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

Whatever happened to the pledge of no lobbyists in his adminstration?  How about transparency?  And then what about not accepting any SUper Pac campaign money?  And how about no earmarks?. Yadayadayadayada...habullshit!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:22 | 3040318 SheepHerder
SheepHerder's picture

How is physical gold or silver a solution?  

The majority holder of physical gold is banks and soverign banking institutions which last time I checked are greedy, corrupt and self-serving.  Even if we went back to a gold backed currency, the banks will largely control the currency and the accounting of the currency to gold ratio.  Not to mention the amount of gold you and I can amass compared to bankers who can pretty much print money to buy physical gold, pales in comparison in gold ownership.  Surely no one thinks normal everyday American citizens own more gold and silver than the banks, right?

If you and I woke up tomorrow and gold was the currency, would the banks and politicians be weaker or stronger in terms of power?  If it's stronger, then the same headaches we are currently dealing with will exist.

I imagine Blankfein, Diamond, Bernanke and friends would still be in control of the currency.  Such honorable men they've proved to be in recent years.  It seems the problem is an ethical one.  Too much corruption, selfishness, deceit, etc. and few with the means to stop the most powerful of the corrupt, selfisn and deceitful from running the country into the ground.  Until those people are "replaced" it doesn't matter what you use for a and silver included.

In fact it seems like switching to a gold/silver backed currency would cause more problems.  The rich and powerful would be unscathed.  However you and I would have to sit out the window with assault rifles to ward off everyone who wasn't in the know in purchasing gold and silver and is now using any means necessary to feed little Johnny and Sara for dinner.  Sounds like an amazing society.  

However if you and I "replace" the bankers and friends, steal their wealth, redistribute it (yes I sound like a commie) to the masses, you come out with less of a "assault rifle in the window to pick off neighbors" scenario.  

The gold and silver dream is a farce because it doesn't address the root problem, which in my opinion is that the political and banking system represent their own interests rather than that of the people.  Switching to a gold and silver backed currency does not diminish their power, but likely strengthens it due to who owns a majority of gold and silver.  Unless the root problem is addressed, it doesn't matter if toilet paper is the new currency.   

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:31 | 3040366 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

To each his own, SheepHerder.  It's not a matter of being on top of the heap, it's just about being able to crawl out from under the pile... and survive.   I'll never have enough PM to battle anyone or anything, but hopefully I can accumulate enough to save my wealth throught the coming turmoil.  I rarely agree with Gartman, but he says that gold is a currency and one can do better trading it with that concept in mind.  If it's a good trading strategy, why is it not a good wealth preservation strategy as well?

BTW: Your use of the circle and triangle is a bit unsettling.   (FOB 22 years.)

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:47 | 3040432 SheepHerder
SheepHerder's picture

Perhaps it is a good wealth preservation strategy, but it fails to address the root problem or offer much hope to society as a whole.  Nor does it dress society's main problem, which IMO is a spiritual malady as a result of selfishness and self-centeredness.  Almost seems like most of our problems are an addiciton of sorts to materialism and money that have replaced our ability to connec to each other and something bigger than ourselves.  But that's just my opinion based on experience...

BTW: I just thought my icon looked cool being closely related to Solomon's Seal and all.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 21:42 | 3041320 monogratis
monogratis's picture

Sheepherder. Fractional reserve banking can only be safely limited if money is backed by some sort of real asset, not paper.  Gold, silver, and precious metals fulfilled an important function that most people don't belive matters anymore, which is that currencies should be valuable in and of themselves, not because the government points a gun at our head and says so.


 A ponzi scheme is a ponzi scheme and it doesn't matter if you put Jesus Christ in charge of running it, it will still collapse... you can rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic and its' not going to make a difference.  You don't drive your car down a hill without brakes...I could go on with this for a while...

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:49 | 3040441 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

FOB 67 days, Rocky...

at SheepHolder, I was talking about each of us as individuals owning gold to get us through this.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 22:55 | 3046349 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Well now, that's great.  Really.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:35 | 3040376 johnnynaps
johnnynaps's picture

Agreed! The same idiots that are causing all of our problems will maintain control with the mad max gold scenario. Call it kicking the can down a different road.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:45 | 3040427 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

The difference would be that they couldn't print gold to fund all their wars and crazy, wasteful programs.  They would be shackled to the ground.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:22 | 3040090 redpill
redpill's picture

And make sure Guam doesn't tip over.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:05 | 3040251 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Kenya...I mean can ya.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:09 | 3039741 prains
prains's picture

laws are being swiss cheesed by the corptocracy lobbyists to the point they are unenforcable even if there was somebody with the stones to use them, everything has a back door aka the "WTF Global" clause

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:10 | 3039756 pods
pods's picture

"Shit, she's gonna know I'm stoned. Do my eyes look red to you?  Do you have some Visine?"

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:08 | 3040155 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture
 Choom Gang

Unlike Bill Clinton, Barack Obama never tried to say he didn’t inhale.

In his 1995 memoir “Dreams from My Father,” Obama writes about smoking pot almost like Dr. Seuss wrote about eating green eggs and ham. As a high school kid, Obama wrote, he would smoke “in a white classmate’s sparkling new van,” he would smoke “in the dorm room of some brother” and he would smoke “on the beach with a couple of Hawaiian kids.”

He would smoke it here and there. He would smoke it anywhere.


Say would you, could you, with a mouse?

Yes, in a house

With a mouse

In a box

With a fox

On a train

In the rain

In a tree

You will see

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:12 | 3039766 Seer
Seer's picture

LOL!  The same guy who ran around saying that he wasn't going to accept PAC money?`(initial campaign)

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:16 | 3039783 ratso
ratso's picture

Leave it to Santelli to dramatise a truism.  

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:47 | 3039936 smoot27
smoot27's picture

It might be a truism if greater than 50% of the country thought logically.  As made evident by the election, this certainly isn't the case.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:43 | 3040157 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture


Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:46 | 3040170 Seer
Seer's picture

Truth cares not whether even a single person believe it, truth is self-supporting.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 17:39 | 3040603 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Or if the President did. "the debt ceiling is only good for ruining our credit rating".

No, the debt will ruin your credit rating. The debt ceiling was supposed to stop you ruining your credit rating.

How can anything change when this kind of Bizarro World thinking is in charge?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:28 | 3040347 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Is it just me or is Santelli becoming a bit irrelevant?  Can't put my finger on it, but all his "solutions" are pie-in-the-sky stuff that will never happen unless there is a total reset.   Sure, that could be his goal, but he comes off as a shrill theorist, not the practical guy he used to be.   I can agree with nearly all of what he says but I see no way to actually get there without a lot of blood in the streets.   On second thought....  Sounds good.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:18 | 3039791 chubbar
chubbar's picture

This is OT, kind of. Antal Fekete has an article out explaining the death of the Silver standard. He believes that over 100 years ago an "international banking cartel" deliberately sabotaged the silver standard, clearing the path for the current debt system. Very interesting read as he isn't a tin foil guy at all.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:48 | 3040182 Seer
Seer's picture

Humans being deceptive, scheming to obtain more power?  No, say it ain't so!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:36 | 3039879 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

I couldn't remember if it was spooks or vampires that you couldn't see in a mirror-this answers it

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:15 | 3040299 LongBalls
LongBalls's picture

Let's get this party started.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 21:58 | 3041352 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

50% tax rate on all lawyers with income above $100,000. 60% on all lawyer income in Washington.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:02 | 3039722 game theory
game theory's picture

Fraud and crony capitalism are problems too.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:04 | 3039725 pods
pods's picture

Debt is not only the problem, it backs our currency!


Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:16 | 3039764 El Hosel
El Hosel's picture

No shite, we went over the fiscal cliff and off the fiscal reservation many Trillions of Dollars ago....

Now  suddenly the dusty old debt problem is just one "deadline or headline away from disaster"!....  Its made for TV propaganda played out to perfection  so they can "avoid the disaster" and rally the markets to new highs for the Holidaze!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:46 | 3039922 johnnymustardseed
johnnymustardseed's picture

"Reagan," Vice President Dick Cheney famously declared in 2002, "proved deficits don't matter." Unless, that is, a Democrat is in the White House. After all, while Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt and George W. Bush doubled it again, each Republican was rewarded with a second term in office. But as the Gallup polling data show, concern over the federal deficit hasn't been this high since Democratic budget balancer Bill Clinton was in office. All of which suggest the Republicans' born-again disdain for deficits ranks among the greatest - and most successful - political double-standards in recent memory.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:01 | 3039996 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

Republicans increased the debt, but no one over the past 200+ years has come anywhere close to the BHO record on debt creation.   It is not the percentage increase that matters, it is the absolute dollar amount of increase.  

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:32 | 3040130 johnnymustardseed
johnnymustardseed's picture

Because BHO told the truth about the costs of the wars he is bad? Bush hid the cost of two wars off budget.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:45 | 3040163 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

Demopublicans and Republicrats....

Now I know the meaning of the phrase, "Who gives two shits?" 

As in, "Hey, johnnymustardseed.  Who gives two shits about who did what when?  We're fucked equally."

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:56 | 3040207 Seer
Seer's picture

It's all explainable via an understanding of the exponential function.  The better way of measuring all of this is by looking at time speeding up: everything is coming faster and faster.

During Clinton's rule the bubble that Greenspan was brewing allowed the budget deficit problem to be masked.  While things could have been made worse, things certainly could have been made MUCH better by operating as though the windfalls brought in by the big financial churns weren't going to last forever.  Sigh, no one wants to pull away the punch bowl when the party's going strong.

The "parties" all cater to the same powers.  As demonstrated, talk is one thing, actions another: and the actions by BOTH clearly indicate that their talk is meaningless (the talk is just the storyline handed to them by TPTB).

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:32 | 3040365 pods
pods's picture

Precisely Seer.  The function's slope is increasing so every "last administration" looks better and better.
When in reality, it has little to do with policy or politics.

If the debt needs increasing, the federal gov is the borrower of last resort.


Thu, 12/06/2012 - 17:43 | 3040613 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

You mean some day Obama will look good, compared to what comes after him?

Scary thought but I'm afraid you are right. Who ever thought we would miss Clinton, or Reagan?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:14 | 3040280 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

... I lived through the Clinton administration and if not for the contract with America and Newt Gingrich insistence on a budget a lot of if not all of Clinton's economic success would be nil. He was brought kicking and screaming to the table of balancing the budget as well as welfare reform.

The reality is that both sides need to compromise. Clinton was not a demagogue and Obama is the opposite of Clinton in so many ways.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:17 | 3039788 Seer
Seer's picture

Not only does it back the USD, but debt IS money!

Santelli is right, but someone needs to point out to him that DEBT IS MONEY!  It's the fucking System!

One cannot cast rocks at only the public sector.  After all, the public sector is mopping up the private sector's debt in order to keep loan defaults from wiping out DEBT, which would wipe out the System.

"Fractional banking," perpetual growth on a finite planet.  This is the stuff of pure insanity.  When folks struggle to figure out what's wrong it's because the PREMISE is WRONG!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:02 | 3040003 pods
pods's picture

It has been the way of things for so long that not 1 in 100k people understand the concept.

Henry Ford had it right:

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."


Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:04 | 3040254 Seer
Seer's picture

And, sadly, as revolutions always end up, the lesson of growth never is learned. The reason being is that those leading the "revolution" only want to insert themselves into power, and supposed changes to "the system" are no more than elements of selling in order to get a buy-in for recognizing the "new" PTB as THE-PTB.

"Do people demand a really just system? Well, we'll arrange it so that they'll be satisfied with one that's a little less unjust ... They want a revolution, and we'll give them reforms -- lots of reforms; we'll drown them in reforms. Or rather, we'll drown them in promises of reforms, because we'll never give them real ones either!!"

- DARIO FO, Accidental Death of an Anarchist

"As to the history of the Revolution, my ideas may be peculiar, perhaps singular. What do We Mean by the Revolution? The War? That was no part of the Revolution. It was only an Effect and Consequence of it. The Revolution was in the minds of the People..."

- John Adams

"La Revolucion is like a great love affair. In the beginning, she is a goddess. A holy cause. But... every love affair has a terrible enemy: time. We see her as she is. La Revolucion is not a goddess but a whore. She was never pure, never saintly, never perfect."

- Jack Palance, as 'Jesus Raza', in, 'The Professionals' (1966)

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 18:45 | 3040682 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yes! The comments by pods and Seer are RIGHT!

THE Problem is the money-as-debt system! A deeper problem is that the reason that system exists is that it is basically the result of the triumph of organized crime taking control of the government, by reducing almost all politicians to puppets. The history was bribery and intimidation, and assassination when those were not enough to control the political processes. Therefore, bit by bit, more and more, faster and faster, the current system was developed as the runaway triumph of organized crime taking control of the government.

I like the part when Santelli demonstrated that checks and balances have been reduced to all checks, with no balances. That has been the result of the public political processes gradually being taken over by a shadow government through triumphant organized crime. However, on a deeper philosophical level, the problem is that virtually all of the controlled opposition likes to present nice sounding theoretical solutions which deliberately ignore the central role of the real problem, namely, money is backed by murder.  The only way to sufficiently understand the real problem is to face the fact that any politicians that could not be controlled by being bribed or intimidated were then discredited or destroyed instead. Furthermore, any attempts to actually fix the real problems run into a head-on collision with those basic facts still being the problem, except now on an astronomically amplified scale than they were when those problems first started to become runaways ...

Unless the public was willing and able to go through enough of the political science paradigm shifts necessary, then they could not understand the monetary system, and could not effectively change it in revolutionary ways, which are the only ways which would be sufficient. As people like President Jackson also stated, as Ford later did, IF the people understood the monetary system, there would be a revolution. However, actually UNDERSTANDING the monetary system is something way more profound than to merely understand the superficial structure of that! Furthermore, the necessary revolution is way, way more profound than to change that superficial structure, and especially far more profound than ideas about changing that superficial structure of the monetary system back to being something like it was supposed to be in the past.

In fact, the most probable future is NOT an adequate enlightenment of enough of the American people to cause a Second American Revolution to take back power over the monetary system ... The most probable future is for the established runaway debt insanity to result in psychotic breakdowns that destroy America, and reduces it to something which we can not yet imagine, since it is the result of an uncontrollable collapse into chaos.

The basic rule of law, and checks and balances, are all breaking down before us, at an exponentially accelerating rate, while those in power only respond by causing that to happen even more, as their "solutions" to those problems. However, the destruction of the rule of law, and the destruction of checks and balances, will reach a point where the whole system will fly apart, and become ungovernable any more ...  Nobody now knows when and how that will happen, nor what will be the result of that happening ... However, there are no good reasons to disbelieve that this runaway debt insanity situation could have any other outcome.

The problem with the collapse into chaos is that the return of reality, within the context of the runaway triumph of frauds, backed by force, having made and maintained the current systems, then means that the implicit death controls behind the debt controls will become much more manifested, as those are the real checks and balances, which will emerge from the bogus systems of frauds finally going through their necessary corrections via psychotic breakdowns of their runaway triumphant frauds.

America has become a country totally controlled by huge lies, backed up with violence, which can never make those lies become true, but which could only make the established systems of runaway triumphant frauds grow to astronomically amplified sizes. The "market corrections" we are talking about here are NOT within the established systems, but rather are the psychotic breakdowns of those systems.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:07 | 3039732 Timmay
Timmay's picture

Our Republic is in perpetual crisis.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:15 | 3039739 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



"Oceania has always been at war with England, Injuns, France, Spain, Mexico, Ourselves, Spain, Italy, Germany, Russia, Japan, USSR, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Libya, Iraq, Islam."

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:27 | 3039840 Seer
Seer's picture

Oceania has always been at war FOR RESOURCES.  All wars are about resources.  Countries and ideologies are just part of the marketing campaign to hide this underlying animal response.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 18:17 | 3040719 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yes, but control over resources comes from control over money. Control over resources primarily became control over the power to make money out of nothing, as the symbolic way to rob resources. Control over the supply of resources became control over the money supply.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:08 | 3039746 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

Wait, we live in a Republic?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:49 | 3040183 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

It was supposed to be a constitutional republic but now the US is a democratic republic, but yeah, we live in a republic.

A republic is a political model. What kind of republic is like asking in what industry is a business operating in.  Democratic republics almost always lead to dictatorships. 

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:55 | 3040206 SMG
SMG's picture

The US is an Oligarchy, period, and that needs to change.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:26 | 3040335 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

You know there's a difference between understanding politics and practicing politics, right?

Anyway, you're thinking of a plutocracy.

Not as a snarky comment, you should consider expanding your knowledge.  Also, to make yourself less angry, try reading the Stoics. 

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 18:29 | 3040742 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yes!  It is PLUTOCRACY. In particular, a privatized, fiat, money-as-debt system enabling the plutocrats to establish a state religion that everyone else is forced to accept. It is plutocracy, where those who control the money supply thereby control everything else! They controlled the money supply by corrupting the government to give them the power to make money out of nothing, as legalized counterfeiting, which fraud they also controlled the government to force everyone else to accept. The fundamental nature of government is organized lies operating organized robbery, and plutocracy is the process whereby control of that system is taken over by the best organized gang of criminals, operating a shadow government that controls the public politicians as puppets. It works because the vast majority of people do not understand that, and do not want to understand that, because they have been forced for many generations to adapt to accept that, because they must live inside of that system.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:06 | 3039735 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

But the ChiComs LOVE buying our worthless dollars! Just ask Little Timmy!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:07 | 3039736 Martdin
Martdin's picture

Why bother with calling it a ceiling when it's already through the roof?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:29 | 3039849 Seer
Seer's picture

What goes up MUST come down.  Eventually there'll be an opportunity to get in on the ground floor! </sarc>

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:51 | 3040189 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture




Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:09 | 3039754 USS Bernanke
USS Bernanke's picture

Where is the meme that says...

"Proposed Tax Plan 'Generates' 1.6Trillion Over Decade"

(Insert Any Political Picture Here)

"US Annual Deficit 1.6Trillion"

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:14 | 3039773 James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

I weep for our children.  We don't have the balls to fix this.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:42 | 3040416 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I don't worry about the coming generations too much.  A bit, yes, but not to the state of despair.  Every generation has its heroes and villains.  The "fix" would involve some extreme austerity and I'm not saying that's a bad thing or unnecessary.  Would burdening the next generation(s) with that be good or bad?  Who says that every generation must live a softer and easier life than the preceding one?  After some time has passed you get a completely fat, useless, sofa-ridden, pampered, iCrap gazing, dumbed-down populace.  Oops.  Looks like it's time for a reset!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:32 | 3039862 Seer
Seer's picture

The more important question is: Who does it generate for?

Social-Military complex...

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:10 | 3039757 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

The problem is that no one in Government runs the Country like they would their own finances.  After all it is someone elses Money. 

Any individual that would run the kind of Debt the Country is running would be cut off by the Banks.  More than likely they would end up having to declare Bankruptcy as there was no way to increase their production to work 24 hours a day.

But, somehow the Government seems to see all Americans as a big Piggie Bank to keep breaking and taking all of the money out and then asking for more.  Just so they can keep spending like there is no tomorrow.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:37 | 3039885 Seer
Seer's picture

Maybe having a printing press makes things different?  OK, maybe having a printing press and "legally" being able to print money makes things different...  The PREMISE is bad; the behavior was/is sanctioned by the premise.

Eventually the issue of finite resources will stall it all out.  The System was set in motion a LONG time ago and the "program" has yet to complete/exhaust.  Anyone thinking that it can be stopped prematurely has to believe that we can collectively recognize that perpetual growth on a finite planet isn't possible- I'm not thinking that this is going to happen (instead we'll continue to set the stage for wars so that power-mongers can pick back up the reigns of power).

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:10 | 3039759 tongue.stan
tongue.stan's picture

Phony derivative debt that was fraudulently taken on by corrupt politicians is not the people's problem, it is the bankers' problem.

Fuck the bankers and their offspring, Bernank and Geitnard.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:11 | 3039761 Darth Mul
Darth Mul's picture

Even 'debt' per se isn't the problem - it's the transfer of wealth from labor to capital - from people who work and produce to banks lending what are otherwise worthless pieces of paper.



Supposedly 94 cents of every dollar of tax revenue in 2010 went to military/defense.  Roughly half of federal outlays, though, were medicare + social security.


Liberals take it as an article of faith that the Laffer Curve is nothing more than a right wing fiction, and seem to focus all their efforts on increasing the income tax, while the right wingers don't want to touch military/defense spending.


Orwell once wrote something like it's often a struggle to see what is right in front of one's nose.  Watching Dems and Republicans talk about everything but what common sense would dictate - address the spending problem the federal government plainly has - combined with the extent to which the government has been bought by powerful lobbies from AIPAC to the AARP to Big Oil and Big Pharma makes me look forward to seeing it all crash and burn.


It's tough to know which party is more particularly retarded here.


I read Krugman's article/blog comments every day and it's plain that the Right Thinking People absolutely, fundamentally refuse to accept that spending more than you have is what creates deficits.


What can men do against such blind stupidity>?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:10 | 3039762 UndergroundPost
UndergroundPost's picture

Debt is the problem. National Collapse is the consequence. Here's what DEBT did to GREECE:

GREECE HAS AN EFFECTIVE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE OF 61% (as opposed to the just released 26% official unicorn number)! This is not the unemployment % of the young, sun-kissed youth population, but for the FULL FORCE of WORK-ABLE ADULTS

Here are the numbers:
Unemployed (those not working who are trying to find work): 1.3M
Inactive Unemployed (as defined by the most trusted Helenic Statistical Authority: "persons that neither worked, neither looked for a job"): 3.4M
Total number of REAL UNEMPLOYED in Socrates homeland: ~4.7M
Total number of Greeks employed (this includes GOVERNMENT WORKERS which of course means secretaries working for secretaries who type meaningless memos for bureaucrats who write reports on why Greece needs more German money): 3.7M
Total Labor Force: 5.3M (Another farce number - see below)
Total Population of Greece: 11.2M
Total Adult Population (15-65, i.e. WORKING AGE): 7.2M

So the BuLS*T (Bureau of Labor Stats) of Greece is saying that there are nearly 2 million of its citizens (Total Adult Population - Total Labor Force) that for some reason shouldn't be included in the Labor Force. So we don't seem totally heartless, let's acknowledge that there are some physically, mentally and politically challenged adults that CAN'T work. The UN estimates that around 10% of the world's population is disabled and slightly higher in 3rd world countries. Its probably less in Greece (unless you consider someone who is over-tanned to be disabled) but let's say 10% of Greeks really can't work. That's about 720K of working age adults that really need charity. That leaves - again generously - 6.4M total work-able adults. And for those EU bureaucrats who are insisting on robbing the rest of Europe's producers for the non-producers, we'll even deduct that full 720K from the Inactive Employed number.


Here's why Zeus is curled up in a corner sucking his thumb: 3.9M non-working but able adult Greeks / 6.4M total work-ready adults = 60.9% REAL UNEMPLOYMENT.

Socratic wisdom for Prime Minister Antonis Samaras: Take the Hemlock.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:47 | 3039933 Seer
Seer's picture

Wasn't it Dick Cheney who said that debts didn't matter?

There's a huge difference between Greece and the US given that the world's economy authorizes the US to print the world's reserve currency.  If Greece were in this position then things would be reversed.  That said, that which cannot continue forever won't: a BAD premise is a BAD premise AND WILL FAIL.

Perpetual growth is a disease that doesn't care what "nation/state," "government" or "ideology" is pushing it.  We all recognize that we've been living WAY beyond sustainable levels and "adjust" accordingly, "adjust" "voluntarily," or we unleash the hounds of war, which, if anyone remembers WWII they'll KNOW that "austerity" was a way of life, found acceptable by the distraction of war...  Unlike the era following WWII, future wars are likely to be unending:

“This is the kind of fight we’re in for the rest of our lives and probably our kids’ lives,” - General Petraeus

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:11 | 3039765 sickofthepunx
sickofthepunx's picture

debt problem is a hoax

as soon as the boomers die off, demographics will fix the problem

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:16 | 3039778 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

The boomers may die off but the bankers will make sure that their children will inherit their debt.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:49 | 3039941 Seer
Seer's picture

Well played!

There's also the issue of LESS resources available to those future generations, not to mention ramifications of environmental impacts to-date.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:18 | 3039794 CommunityStandard
CommunityStandard's picture

long Logan's Run

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:57 | 3040212 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

Once your marginal tax rate reachs 28 please report to Carousel.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:14 | 3039771 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Debt is the symptom and not the cause of a society that has lost its way and fallen into the trap of believing that the day of reckoning can forever be put off by a printing press and military might.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:24 | 3039827 James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

It would make a helluva story arc:  FROM: hard work, sacrifice  and saving ->  TO: sloth, entitlement and debt

Of course the story ends tragically.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:57 | 3039972 Seer
Seer's picture

It's an energy equation.  "Hard work" etc. means energy consumption.  Nature doesn't DO "hard work," it does what's necessary.

As energy declines there's less ability to "do work."  Sure, people will eventually find themselves doing more manual labor (I do it on a regular basis), but that will require more energy in the form of food: and most of today's food is made available thanks to all the stored energy found in fossil fuels.

Clearly the tide has to reverse.  I don't, however, think that it's going to be a world where "hard workers" are going to be toiling in Apple factories.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 14:01 | 3043269 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yes, the beginning of the end for the American monetary system was de-monetizing silver.

To quote the article you linked:

There is no doubt that the U.S. Congress grossly exceeded its authority when it passed the Coinage Act of 1873.

The way that was done was blatantly unconstitutional! That was the beginning of the destruction of the constitutional, rule of law, basis for the financial system of the USA. That destruction has been picking up speed at an exponentially accelerating rate ever since. It is now a terminally fatal social sickness. Americans have slowly gotten used to organized crime controlling their government, getting away with more and more blatantly unconstitutional actions.

Also for a few more details of how the political processes were corrupted, and taken over through bribery, etc., I believe that the following facts are true, although I take them second-hand:

1872: Ernest Seyd is sent to America on a mission from the Rothschild owned Bank of England. He is given $100,000 which he is to use to bribe as many Congressmen as necessary, for the purposes of getting silver de-monetized, as it had been found in huge quantities in the American West, which would eat into Rothschild's profits.

1873: Ernest Seyd obviously spent his money wisely, as Congress pass the, "Coinage Act," which results in the minting of silver dollars being abruptly stopped. Furthermore, Representative Samuel Hooper, who introduced the bill in the house, even admitted that Ernest Seyd had actually drafted the legislation.

1874: Ernest Seyd himself admitted who was behind the demonetizing of silver in America, when he makes the following statement, "I went to America in the winter of 1872 - 1873, authorized to secure, if I could, the passage of a bill de-monetizing silver. It was in the interests of those I represented, the governors of the Bank Of England, to have it done. By 1873, gold coins were the only form of coin money."

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:16 | 3039777 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"Debt Ceiling Is Not The Problem. Debt Is The Problem"

Actually it's the corrupt socioeconomic system all that debt is supporting that's the problem. But why quibble?


Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:01 | 3039992 Seer
Seer's picture

Not sure if a bad premise can be corrupted...  The socioeconomic system is predicated on a bad premise.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:15 | 3039779 Karlus
Karlus's picture

Its a debt problem caused by politics. Polls say people want free stuff and they want it now. They dont care what you do to get them the stuff, just get it and keep getting it.

The Blues are getting ready to blame the Reds for the fiscal cliff. The people will howl while the Blues say give us the power to push past the Reds to get you more stuff. The Reds are favoring the rich and not you.

The Reds spend almost as much as the Blues and are trying to reduce spending. That goes directly against the public wanting more more more.

The Blues laugh because they are happy to have the debt ceiling and cliff and whatever made up shit shut off the tap so the people can rage at the Reds.


Bottom line: This is not about fixing the problem, its about rats fighting on a sinking ship and no one wants to fix the leak.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:00 | 3039988 pods
pods's picture

No, politics is merely a symptom.

The debt problem is caused by compound interest on a fractional reserve lended into existence currency.

The aggregate debt must increase in this system for it to continue to function.  When the debt (total) goes up, it functions well.

When it starts to go down, you risk a deflationary implosion.

Look at any debt chart from circa 2008. The debt curve was rolling over, as private debt was starting to fall.  The federal government stepped in to avoid the implosion.

Watch "Money as Debt" or the "Money Masters" series and think about our system of currency.  It is not a full fiat currency, it is a debt backed currency.

And that debt is issued with interest.  In order for current debt to be repaid, future debt must increase to allow for the interest to be paid back.

The system is the culprit, no matter how much fun it is to hate group x,y,z, etc.


Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:05 | 3040012 Seer
Seer's picture

Thank you for providing light on sanity!

It all maps to the exponential function.  It is imperative that we understand the exponential function.  Dr. Albert Bartlett summed it all up very succinctly when he said that "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:16 | 3039781 PaperBear
PaperBear's picture

Another limit supersedes the debt limit and that is the limit of patience prospective buyers of Treasury debt have when they are losing purchasing power.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:59 | 3039982 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Except Bernanke and the Fed is buying 60-70% of all new Treasury debt issuance, and the Fed doesn't give a shit about losing purchasing power of the dollar because they can just print more to buy literally whatever asset they want. How much of the current housing stock in the U.S. does the Fed currently own?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:12 | 3040046 Seer
Seer's picture

Not in defense of the Fed, but the enablers of their printing is the US Treasury.

Said it years ago, and I think that it's worth entertaining the hypothesis: perhaps the Fed is the black hole that's being staged to slurp up all the crap and then implode, allowing the govt to point and say "it's NOT the US govt!"  People WAY underestimate TPTB: which is why they're STILL TPTB after ALL these years.  The "assets" are meaningless to the Fed: and, really, they're holding a bunch of toxic crap, crap that is in no way worth the demands on labor that they'd been on the books for.

We really don't OWN anything other than a sense of responsibility.  And this is pretty good in and of itself (gives us a sense of being).  BUT, everything has some sort of claims on it- things are vastly intertwined.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:49 | 3040442 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

The Fed is providing the function of the "bad bank" model?  I can go with that. 

Can't wait to see how that works out.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:17 | 3039784 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

Here is goldman calling the top in gold in 2007.  LOLZ



Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:17 | 3039786 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Debt is not the problem, the FED and corrupt congress are the problem.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:21 | 3039804 TheMayor
TheMayor's picture

"Nothing to see here, look away, move along..."

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:44 | 3039806 BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

I rise in full agreement with Rick's perfect offer. Great job Rick. You have both eyes open, unlike the Sirius Joker's credibility reflected in the dark pool through the White House Window at Zero Hour Zero Interest. That apple in Babylon is fallen fallen. The counterweight in the cup of fornication is 666 and the price of the harvest is risen do to the ''want'' of the King's portion. You got that right, Ricky, don't lose that number, you do not want to call 911 2012 in Benghazi with 666 behind you, that is a no brainer. 

P.S. George Washington's graven image inside the Capitol, on the ceiling, is in contempt of Christ. There is no doubt about that fact. Having some asshole point to George Washington's Monument during his own speech, from inside the White House, another graven image, is a reflection of the same contempt that is Antichrist.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:23 | 3039811 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

What do the banksters want?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:20 | 3040072 BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

The ''want'' of Babylon is defining the prophetic false peace of the Antichrist. 

P.S. Duh!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:43 | 3040160 Seer
Seer's picture

Excellent question!  And I mean it!

It's one of those way-to-obvious things that people just miss.

We should view it as a hostage-taking and ask just what the hostage-takers are demanding!

Sadly, I'm not thinking that they know.  They're likely just doing the only thing they know to do (push money around, making sure that they get their slices).  The "model" is based on growth, so confronting our notion of growth ain't going to be discussed.  Music keeps playing, there's a few more chairs that remain to be pulled from the game...

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:55 | 3040464 BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

That was not a question in doubt. Do you need to give me another down arrow? 

P.S. I know I have given you the down arrow before.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:24 | 3039822 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture
Greenspan Says Painless Solution to U.S. Debt is Fantasy

"Reducing U.S. long-term deficits will inevitably cause economic pain, former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said. “The presumption that we’re going to have a painless solution to this, I think, is fantasy,” Greenspan said today during a “Bloomberg Surveillance” television interview with Tom Keene and Sara Eisen. “There are a lot of risks out there but the one thing I can be reasonably certain of is we won’t get through this whole issue without some pain.”"

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:35 | 3039875 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Now he says it! 

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:11 | 3040281 Seer
Seer's picture

Greenspan: "I was only CLEANING the gun (the nuclear arsenal battery)!"

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:53 | 3040458 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

So says Greenspan, the chief architect of the problem.  I guess he would know.  Waiting for his full apology, not the limp-wristed statement he made before Congress.  I'm looking for a mea culpa goddam book!  Where are all the skeletons hidden?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:29 | 3039850 Clesthenes
Clesthenes's picture

Santelli, “Debt ceiling is not the problem.  Debt is the problem.”


So, true; but he uses such a gentle term.


Government debt is the mechanism by which one generation of people financially cannibalizes following generations.


And "they" want unlimited authority to perform such cannibalization?


There is currently enough governmental debt on the books now to cannibalize following generations of Americans to the end of time.  As I’ve said elsewhere, ‘Don’t take my word for it.  A former comptroller of the US and a few financial advisers are telling the same story.’


By describing it as a ‘debt’ problem instead of a policy of cannibalizing our children and grandchildren to the end of time, one glosses over its heinous nature, and almost give “aid and comfort” to its perpetrators.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:54 | 3040468 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Rick's fatal flaw is assuming that what Washington does can fix the very problem they created.  Aren't there some catchy, famous aphorisms to the contrary?

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:38 | 3039886 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Harry Reid:  Mr. President it's not flying that is the problem it is gravity.  Without gravity we could fly.

Obama: I believe we can fly.  Have congress give me the power to ignore gravity.  Forward!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:52 | 3039954 Element
Element's picture

The MSM alternate false argument to debt growth does not work, namely, austerity.  Either politically, economically or socially.

Whereas the true alternative argument is default and bankruptcy, which would work politically, financially and socially.

Well, it would, if you had a real political leadership.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:13 | 3040293 Seer
Seer's picture

I agree, but somewhere along the line we've got to learn THE lesson.  Also, I don't believe that the "political leadership," which is really only the mouthpiece of TPTB, wish to self-inflict gunshots (once the rug is pulled their positions aren't all that stable- there goes generations of inherited power).

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 14:58 | 3039975 Bear
Bear's picture

The Debt may be a problem, but it is really the people who control the debt that is the problem.

This generation has grown up and grown old knowing nothing but increasing money supply, and ever ballooning debt. They have also, ever so skillfully, indoctrinated the next generation that 'debt doesn't matter' and as long as the iPhones, XBoxes, free contraceptives, and a few bucks for McDonalds continue all is well. We have also chosen to keep them ignorant of economics and history, thus we have doomed our society to repeat it.

Debt does matter, but the pullers of the levers of power matter more. We have now descended to a depth of moral nihilism that makes celebrity the paramount virtue and adoration of it the highest calling. Where hard work, innovation,  and upright dealings are replaced by the welfare state and a slavish  pursuit of the next hedonist handout, it is only a matter of time (as history would indicate) that we will collapse, so just as the debt will collapse, so will the people who have led us down this hellish path.

Both George Washington and J.M. Keynes would be shocked and saddened at where we have arrived from where they started.    

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:40 | 3040410 Seer
Seer's picture

Inability to grow, inability to keep raising the levels of imports and exports due to increasing costs of resources will ALWAYS result in a cliff moment.

All the nasty behaviors that you're noting are merely colors in the painting.  One can change the colors, but the elements of the painting are still the same.  We've got to stop believing that simple mind games are all that's necessary for altering our perception (when it's our basic perception that perpetual growth is possible).

I don't believe that the Prime Mover of all of this is still around.  Those who take up the mantle of power only know how to operate things based on a growth model.  Kind of hard to challenge them when no one can present an alternate model (such that it wouldn't result in a major shake-up that would continue to recognize the same people as getting a larger-than-average cut in any new model- as Einstein put things: "The significant problems we face can not be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them.")

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:05 | 3040014 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

They keep putting out this lie that not raising the debt ceiling will cause the US to default on its debt.  There is nothing further from the truth - but the MSM loves to beat the default drum. 

The federal government has PLENTY of revenues to cover debt service (interest).  Any maturing debt can just be refinanced (producing no new net debt). 

The US is not going to default on its debt if it does not raise the debt ceiling.  Don't believe alarms to the contrary.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:13 | 3040044 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

All of you are assuming Obama does not want to hit the iceberg

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:46 | 3040428 Seer
Seer's picture

You'd have to then attribute far more intelligence in the man as that would mean he's got a full understanding of EXACTLY what would transpire during and after total chaos.  The Status Quo (whom Obama is but a mouthpiece for) maintain their power by keeping things the same, not by massive shocks to the very systems that's responsible for holding them aloft.  It would be the same logic as stating that in order to stay perched one would select a course of action that meant cutting the tree's trunk, while sitting above in the very tree!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:57 | 3040476 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Of course.  Why attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by plain stupidity.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 17:49 | 3040631 Seer
Seer's picture

Sigh, it's NOT stupidity.  I'm not saying this because I like the guy (not at all), but until people get off this name-calling, popularity mindset kick we're most definitely going to shield ourselves from seeing what the actual problems are.

TPTB, as noted, cannot maintain their positions by being dumb.  If we were to make this claim then we'd have to acknowledge that the rest of us are dumber: and it becomes the scenario of not having to out-run the bear but, rather, outrunning the other person.

POTUS is a puppet position, a figurehead.  Words coming from it are meaningless- it's actions that should be measured.  And by all accounting, action-speaking, TPTB have managed to not only stay ABOVE, but they've risen even higher.  I suppose that one could view this as stupidity if scrutinized by the phrase "the bigger they are the harder they fall," but I'm not thinking that many people equate it as such.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:18 | 3040073 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Infinite debt and infinite printing by Bernanke and the fed. How does the future play out with that?

Sure Moody's and Fitch will go along with it. They fostered the housing bubble by rate garbage debt at triple A.

The smart people and countries are already dumping the US dollar and debt.


Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:48 | 3040434 Seer
Seer's picture

"Infinite debt and infinite printing by Bernanke and the fed. How does the future play out with that?"

Infinite growth on a finite planet.  How does the future play out with That?

It's all the same insanity.  Question the premise!

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 17:26 | 3040569 Seer
Seer's picture

"The smart people and countries are already dumping the US dollar and debt."

Sadly, I'm afraid, it's not all so much as a matter of choice...  But as they say, necessity is the mother of invention :-)

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 15:51 | 3040195 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

That's SIR Alan Greenspan, thank you......

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:02 | 3040240 Gamma735
Gamma735's picture

All this paper debt always leads to the same ruin, War.  World War.  From the bankers' perspective it is all these excess people that are the problem.  Imagine that, greenies and bankers agree that excess people are the problem.  I say draft every hippie and banker to fight on the front lines of the next war.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 16:53 | 3040461 Seer
Seer's picture

"I say draft every hippie and banker to fight on the front lines of the next war."

Yeah, because we KNOW that the hippies and the banksters have the exact same belief system!

Meanwhile food needs to be grown.  Lot's of "hippies" out in the countryside producing food.  Don't see many banksters producing food.

Always, people should shut the fuck up about "solutions" unless they can properly identify the "problems."  No problem with people engaging in the attempts to understand the "problems," but to toss out ill-conceived "solutions" only detracts from any credible presentations on what the problems are.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 17:39 | 3040601 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

jeebus , but most on here are without clue.........

Ask Saint Santelli to have Master Saint Greenspan on someday , any old day will do, and have him reply to one question.......


Why did you not only not wish but warn against paydown of "da debt" back in those glory years of prosperity we here about from WmClinton and the fellows?


Ask him ..go aaahead bitchezz!


You been had doesn't begin to cover it and yet the "media" including the hedge sadly huffs and puffs over this feature and endless silliness ensuses. The deer should be a  fixture when these nutty debt postings show up.



Thu, 12/06/2012 - 18:03 | 3040674 dscott8186
dscott8186's picture

Too late Santelli, it's all the problem only if you insist that Dollars have value. Your problem Santelli is that Obama does not believe the Dollar has any value, that is why he deficit spends a $1 trillion a year and growing.  

With the Fed openly buying Treasuries with imaginary money the debt means nothing because the dollar means nothing.  This is Obama's Transformational change.  All you dupes need to be re-educated into Obamanomics.

You are all worked up over nothing, let the genius Obama run the country and you tend to your ignorance.  The wealth is going to be redistributed because a millionaire will have exactly the same as the homeless person, zero dollars in wealth.  We will all be equally poor.


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 02:39 | 3041821 ltsgt1
ltsgt1's picture

Maybe we will be equally poor, but I would still have a lot more toilet paper than the homeless.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 21:26 | 3041278 Tom Green Swedish
Tom Green Swedish's picture

Here's the problem.  The government is spending more of our GDP each year while our wages decrease.  These two not only don't go together well, its not fair to future generations who did not have the same opportunities that previous ones had.  That being sad Taxes should be progressive.  The older you are the more you pay.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 04:34 | 3041890 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

The infantile logic of liberals is quite profound indeed, but the dimwitted american people are in agreement with their fallacious argument that the answer to the debt is not to curb the spending that got us there, but to tax those that did nothing to contribute to the debt problem. The utter lack of understanding of what should be common logic is maddening. It is true as one wise Ben Franklin said, "common sense is quite uncommon." If this was true in his day, then how much worse has it gotten now.


    The only way to ensure one has sound logical thinking capacity is to exercise ones conscience on a daily basis. But how can we expect 'boobus-americanus' to properly exercize their conscience(the unseen), when they don't even know how to properly exercise their physical bodies which they see on a constant daily basis.


 That is not to say that one who is overweight can not have common logic. Of course you can. When Governor Chris Christie was asked about his health issue, he said that he did not have enough time to exercise his body because he spent all his spare time exercizing his conscience. That does not either imply that those who do exercise their bodies spend time exercising their conscience.


   It is the lack of wisdom that is the cause for all the problems we have today. Governor Christie's practice of ignoring his health makes him a threat to only himself, but for all those that ignore their conscience, THEY are a threat to EVERYONE.

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