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Meet Liz Fowler: Architect of ObamaCare Jumps Ship To Johnson & Johnson

Tyler Durden's picture


Via Mike Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

Following the passage of ObamaCare, several of the smartest people I know claimed that the bill was actually written by and for the drug and insurance companies rather than “the people” as Obama had claimed.  My friend and orthopedic surgeon Dave Janda wrote an excellent piece that I published titled: Thoughts on Obamacare from a Surgeon and Friend.

In recent days it has emerged that Liz Fowler, who is said to have been one of the key architects of ObamaCare, is doing what any good revolving door crony capitalist would do.  She is moving to the private sector to receive her payoff.  Trudy Lieberman of the Columbia Journal Review explains that:

Herewith is a brief Fowler curriculum vitae: In 2001 she had a plum job as chief counsel for the Senate Finance Committee, which deals with healthcare bills. As Greenwald’s old Salon post notes, her biography says she “played a key role” in the 2003 Medicare prescription drug law that created a new senior drug benefit—a benefit provided via private insurers, not the government, as is the case for other Medicare benefits. A few years later she landed a position at WellPoint as a vice president overseeing the giant insurer’s lobbying activities.


Fowler then returned to Senate Finance in 2008 to work for Sen. Max Baucus, who chaired the committee, which was becoming Action Central for health reform. Fowler and Baucus pretty much wrote the bill that became Obamacare—and which, we should note, did not include a proposed “public option,” which was popular with ordinary people but not the insurance companies that lobbied hard to make sure it was out of the mix.


Then this week Politico’s Dave Levinthal and Anna Palmer had a scoop: Fowler is returning to the private world, this time to a senior level position leading global health policy at Johnson & Johnson’s government affairs and policy group.

Revolving door on Wall Street.  Check.  Revolving door at the Pentagon.  Check.  Revolving door in Healthcare.  Check mate.  Welcome to America.  Check your freedom at the door.

Read the full article here.


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Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:05 | 3044207 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Worse yet, she is just one of thousands of replaceable cogs.

Like roaches, there's never just one.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:08 | 3044212 CH1
CH1's picture

She's one of an entire class of people trying to get inside the government beast: Sucking up to power, getting a nice slot somewhere in the power complex. Steering their children into allied carreers.

Call it fascism.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:09 | 3044229 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

Naw, I think she just likes one johnson after another.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:11 | 3044234 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

If Obamacare = socialism/fascism/communism

Then health insurance companies = government?

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:17 | 3044244 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Be kind people... I'm sure it 'looked' like a huge opportunity to her...


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:23 | 3044274 Earl of Chiswick
Earl of Chiswick's picture

And Chris Dodd is President of the Motion Picture Assoc for a cool 1.5m . yr


rumor has it he rented movies on occasion so therefore had the necessary qualifications

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:37 | 3044312 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

That org always chooses the biggest douche available it seems.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:31 | 3044438 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

folks, bills are always written by lobbysts.


politicians are just PR spokesperson for a group of lobbysts.


It is one lobbyst VS another lobbyst both represented by a politician who argues that one group has people's interest over another.


hospital lobbyst VS drug companies.  health insurance VS AMA. nurses union VS medical equipment manufactures....


"people" are the only ones left of the fight as they are only good for paying the taxes.


in every country, in every generation, that's always been the case. watch decade old movies like mr. smith goes to washington and voters have the same complaints because the game is the same.


this is like saying multimillion dollar baseball player saying he does it for the love of fans and the game.


take it as feel good bullshit, then things will make sense. better to see who is the likely winner and bet your money in their stock.


johnson and johnson wants to give welfare to the poor so they can jack up prices of bandaids to equal the welfare increase. poor never get ahead. J&J family get richer with tax payer subsidies.


True medical reform will introduce competition in medical services and get rid of tax incentives for medical products.


we see the same in college costs, housing, etc. Flood the market with goods and services and prices will drop.


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:43 | 3044612 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Exactly why legislation needs to be restricted to fraud and misrepresentation. 

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:22 | 3044838 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"And Chris Dodd is President of the Motion Picture Assoc for a cool 1.5m . yr

rumor has it he rented movies on occasion so therefore had the necessary qualifications"


He played a Senator for 30 years.  
As for the $1.5m per year....if that's what it took to hire him away consider it a small price to pay.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 01:03 | 3045004 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

She's not wealthy enough to survive a collapse.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 05:59 | 3045179 rajat_bhatia
rajat_bhatia's picture

Lets call Lobbying by its real name! CORRUPTION (legalized though :)))

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 11:52 | 3045430 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

The name is Puppet. Barry Puppet.


Sat, 12/08/2012 - 14:09 | 3045620 aint no fortuna...
aint no fortunate son's picture

Bill Moyers did a great piece on this bitch in 2009 on PBS.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 16:45 | 3045870 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

Thanks for that. Way cool, aint.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 00:43 | 3044986 macholatte
macholatte's picture


 Fowler and Baucus pretty much wrote the bill that became Obamacare


Obamacare was written by the Center for American Progress. Little happens in the O Admin without Podestra's finger prints on it.  Exactly who the people were who comprised the team that authored it is unkown. It's questionable Baucus even read the bill let alone wrote it. That claim is pure unadulterated nonsense. As for Fowler, probably just another front for CAP. 


Sat, 12/08/2012 - 12:46 | 3045512 machineh
machineh's picture

Baucus was also behind FATCA, which makes it near impossible for Americans to obtain financial services overseas.


Sat, 12/08/2012 - 14:02 | 3045611 Bob
Bob's picture

Wheeler similarly highlighted the revolving door aspects of who was behind the legislation at the time. Glenn Greenwald just wrote the piece “Obamacare Architect leaves White House for Pharmaceutical Industry Job,” noting “Few people embody the corporatist revolving door greasing Washington as purely as Elizabeth Fowler. … When the legislation that became known as ‘Obamacare’ was first drafted, the key legislator was the Democratic Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Max Baucus, whose committee took the lead in drafting the legislation. As Baucus himself repeatedly boasted, the architect of that legislation was Elizabeth Folwer, his chief health policy counsel; indeed, as Marcy Wheeler discovered, it was Fowler who actually drafted . . .

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 07:27 | 3045223 Cosimo de Medici
Cosimo de Medici's picture

The point is that with re-election always looming, the average Congressperson simply doesn't have the time to write bills or even know what laws to pass.  Lobbying, more appropriately called "outsourcing", increases efficiency, takes the burden off of House and Senate Staffers already overworked setting up international boondoggles, fund raisers, and baby-kissing photo-ops---not to mention discreet liaisons with paramours, interns and pages.  And come on, admit it:  who actually thinks Maxine Waters could write a complete paragraph?



Sat, 12/08/2012 - 16:50 | 3045874 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

Interesting. You're not busy today denying 911 truth or threatening to report other chatters to DHS? Must be a good day, then?

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 08:46 | 3045262 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

+100 Earl. LOL!!

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 14:26 | 3045656 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

And Chris Dodd is the descendant of the attorney, Dodd, who worked for Rockefeller establishing all those holding companies to shift their ownership over to after the "breakup" of their money/monopoly trusts.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 16:50 | 3045877 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

Not to mention CD got his come-uppance by helping JFK's killers stay out of the spotlight during the days of the HSCA.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:26 | 3044277 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

+1 Mr. Sawyer.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:10 | 3044546 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:15 | 3044245 JohnnyBriefcase
JohnnyBriefcase's picture

Health insurance? Really?! The whole idea of health Insurance is a fucking joke! On a long enough timeline...

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:45 | 3044488 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

it is spreading of individual risk to the group so that you can survive to do another day of work for the elites.


doctors know that they don't "save lives". they just delay the inevitable.

however, stupid people turned them into gods and over pay for services in US instead of putting money where it really counts...medical technology and drugs.




Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:44 | 3044617 economics9698
economics9698's picture

If we had a free market doctors would not be overpaid. 

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 07:39 | 3045228 Cosimo de Medici
Cosimo de Medici's picture

Unlike, say, Government Contractors, right?  Oh I know, I know.  It is the likes of YOU, and not physicians, who provide the real essential service.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 00:06 | 3044939 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

You can't spread risk to the group any more than you can socialize toxic loans. It just doesn't work, sounds great, just doesn't work. There is no such thing as "group insurance".

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 10:18 | 3045328 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

The whole idea of health Insurance is a fucking joke!

Really??! The whole idea??

There are uncommon illnesses and accidents which are curable/treatable, but would be too expensive for most individuals to pay for treatment.

What is a joke is the for-profit health insurance industry which functions along with big pharma only to profit by the misery created by nutritionless foods, polluted environments, debilitating jobs, and the disabilities resulting from the endless wars for control of resources, drugs, and finances.

just as for-profit prisons aim to increase incarceration rates

for-profit war merchants promote wars, etc.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 12:45 | 3045510 JohnnyBriefcase
JohnnyBriefcase's picture

Hmm if things were to expensive for people to pay for then I guess they would have to come down in price as to be affordable.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 16:19 | 3045832 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

 or not be offered except to the wealthy

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 16:40 | 3045864 JohnnyBriefcase
JohnnyBriefcase's picture

Which might expedite revolution.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 14:36 | 3045674 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

Am I to understand that you work for free, without pay, and only charge expenses for your time and service?

I've worked within medicine since I was 18 years old in both clinical, supervisory, and administrative roles. There are three problems to blame all of the industry's ills upon--regulation, subsidy, and barriers to entry. Concisely, Government.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 16:26 | 3045847 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture



 The regulations, subsidies, and barriers (monopolies) you decry are all based on regulations and laws written and lobbied for by the industries who benefit from them, and legislated by politicians promoted and rewarded by those same industries.  An unvirtuous self-serving alliance.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 05:58 | 3045176 daxtonbrown
daxtonbrown's picture

Why call her a crony capitalist when she is even worse, a crony socialist!

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 16:52 | 3045880 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

define fascism

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 14:25 | 3045651 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Health insurance has everything to do with the banksters, little to actually to do with the Wall Street-controlled gov't lackeys --- you will are uneducated, sonny?

An excellent breakdown by Nomi Prins here:

Great blog post, and so many of us kept calling out Liz Fowler and all those "waivers" she was writing over at HHS after the passage of that health insurance "reform" legislation --- the backdoor bailout for the health insurance companies, subsidiaries of the banksters, which will aid in the demise of small business and public education (yup, public education, read the details of that legislation, my brothers and sisters), while doing nothing to address the rising costs of healthcare, and establishing those gov't-paid for exchanges, which can then be "leveraged" for a further class of credit derivatives, mortality derivatives, JPMorgan Chase's q-Forwards, etc.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 17:01 | 3045893 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

Another great link, Sarge. You just keep rockin'.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:24 | 3044269 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:27 | 3044285 CH1
CH1's picture

My very real idea for 2013: shunning.

May I suggest that you start in your own back yard: Shunning the engineers who are building the electronic police state.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:41 | 3044608 Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

whaddaya mean?

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:50 | 3044498 e2thex
e2thex's picture

from WIKI Medicare Part D

"Former Congressman Billy Tauzin, R-La., who steered the bill through the House, retired soon after and took a $2 million a year job as president of Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA), the main industry lobbying group. Medicare boss Thomas Scully, who threatened to fire Medicare Chief Actuary Richard Foster if he reported how much the bill would actually cost, was negotiating for a new job as a pharmaceutical lobbyist as the bill was working through Congress.[29][30] A total of 14 congressional aides quit their jobs to work for the drug and medical lobbies immediately after the bill's passage."


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:10 | 3044547 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

in government jobs you get paid after you leave in pensions, tit-for-tat deals, etc.


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:48 | 3044218 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Me love you long time mr Pwezident!

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:08 | 3044225 AnonymousAnarchist
AnonymousAnarchist's picture

Also see Greenwald's analysis...

"This is precisely the behavior which, quite rationally, makes the citizenry so jaded about Washington. It's what ensures that the interests of the same permanent power factions are served regardless of election outcomes. It's what makes a complete mockery out claims of democracy. And it's what demonstrates that corporatism and oligarchy are the dominant forms of government in the US."


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:12 | 3044238 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Who became a big shareholder in JNJ over a year ago?  Warner Buffert. 

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:17 | 3044252 Crtrvlt
Crtrvlt's picture

Held jnj for way longer than a year and are almost out of the position anyway

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:47 | 3044494 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

we are to blame for a society that lets certain people get rich.


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:17 | 3044253 Crtrvlt
Crtrvlt's picture

Held jnj for way longer than a year and are almost out of the position anyway

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 22:25 | 3044730 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

You'd think a smart guy like Warren B., with a net worth of over $50,000,000,000.00, could get a job paying more than $100,000 a year.  




Sat, 12/08/2012 - 08:49 | 3045265 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

fartin Warren owns a chunk of lots of gubbermint/colluded mugwump......the bastard

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:14 | 3044242 Daily Bail
Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:51 | 3044356 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

WTF on the subtitles?

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:57 | 3044373 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Obummer care in 1 word---'CORPORATE WELFARE'



Foreign Aid=Corporate Welfare

War Department=Corporate Welfare

Energy Dept=Corporate Welfare

etc, etc, etc.........


Wash DC is one large transfer payment form the 99% to the 1%


Merry Fucking XMAS



Fri, 12/07/2012 - 22:42 | 3044769 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

+1000 Excellent

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:51 | 3044904 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Conservatives believe in welfare for the rich and the poor.

Liberals believe in welfare for the poor and the rich.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:50 | 3044503 jomama
jomama's picture

woulda shared it if it weren't for the fucking romney banner.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 13:52 | 3045601 myshadow
myshadow's picture

I agree, that is strike 3...


from the left, the same frustration..

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:33 | 3044452 philipat
philipat's picture

In the rest of the world, this is known as corruption, against which the US persisits in lecturing said other countries. The system is truly FUBAR.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 17:33 | 3045928 beachdude
beachdude's picture

We, this country, real people, are so fucked it's beyond belief.

I have a difficult time wrapping my head around this sometimes.

Is there no other solution but to leave?
Relocate? Emigrate to... God my head, and heart, aches.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:07 | 3044216 Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

Perfect, we're gonna need a lot of KY Jelly anyways.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:08 | 3044219 PSEUDOLOGOI

Rotten to the core.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:08 | 3044223 docmac324
docmac324's picture

The Federal Reserve of Healthcare has arrived.  Won't be long and you'll be billed for the air you breathe, with interest..

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:13 | 3044241 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

Dont be such an alarmist Docmac.  They arent going to tax the air you breath in, only the air you breath out (which is carbon dioxide and they want to tax it because, according to someone that stands to make a lot of money off the scam, carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas).

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:47 | 3044340 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Sometimes, all I need is the air that I breathe...

Wait, wut?

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:08 | 3044226 negative rates
negative rates's picture

No one proclaims their innocents so loudly, as the guilty!

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:10 | 3044230 Volaille de Bresse
Volaille de Bresse's picture

Hahaha and the Tea Party assholes called this reform "socialist"... It was crony capitalism at its "best".

What a brilliant "smoke and mirrors" op. Better than Bin Laden's "death"?

You tell me!

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:15 | 3044246 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

Which is worse? Socialism or crony capitalism?

I, for one, reject all forms of totalitarianism because they are antithetical to freedom.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:44 | 3044334 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Oh, I get it. You're biased against false dichotomies, aren't ya?

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:30 | 3044447 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Actually ~ It's my impression that [S]HE's more antithetical to people who could never spell ANTIDISESTABLISHMENTARIANISM correctly in a spelling bee...

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 23:18 | 3046376 RichardP
RichardP's picture

That word means "White Power".  It has arianism in it.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:17 | 3044254 nmewn
nmewn's picture

There is nothing capitalistic about crony capitalism.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:19 | 3044566 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Plus one my friend/ Make that 10 likes ;-)

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:42 | 3044330 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I realize that the socialism involved in crony capitalism isn't readily apparent, but if you think it isn't there... well, you really don't understand the revolving doors that obscure what amounts to government ownership.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:10 | 3044232 bigrooster
bigrooster's picture

FUCK YOU LIZ...let me know how hot it is in HELL.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:12 | 3044239 JohnnyBriefcase
JohnnyBriefcase's picture

Unfortunately Hell is just another illusion to get the serfs to do what the fuck they are told. It doesn't really exist and the only justice people like her will ever see is the justice that we show them.



Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:24 | 3044279 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Great boy scout edicate their, Einstien.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:36 | 3044308 JohnnyBriefcase
JohnnyBriefcase's picture

I'm sorry, I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say.


Was there a point or even a counter-argument there?

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:12 | 3044817 Ballin D
Ballin D's picture

"etiquette there, Einstein."


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:25 | 3044280 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

FYI - I up arrowed both of you.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:01 | 3044313 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I can't wait until 'Obamacare' is challenged to be against 'Sharia Law' in this country (meaning: Insurance is a form of gambling)...

The fun starts there...

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:50 | 3044502 nmewn
nmewn's picture

We're all Amish now!!! ;-)

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:13 | 3044553 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It wouldn't be a bad direction to go [as long as the chicks were still hot ~ that's ALWAYS the key]...

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:29 | 3044583 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

f_S do we have a problem?

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:31 | 3044868 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

f_s... & 'problem' seldom collide in the same sentence...

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:31 | 3044585 nmewn
nmewn's picture

With all the money we would save on ObamaCare & Social Security we could always a bachelor pad ;-)

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 22:18 | 3044712 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

I can't imagine your feelings. I know mine/  My last name was changed during WWII

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:36 | 3044875 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

previously ~ it was CRISS... Right?... [cuz itz wiggidy wiggidy wiggidy WACK]... & all dat...


Sat, 12/08/2012 - 00:11 | 3044946 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

The amish are going to be so fucked before this is over. Unprotected assets free for the taking by the Feds.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:15 | 3044247 fadgadget
fadgadget's picture

i like this article the first time when it was written by glenn greenwald.  seriously, mike krieger and john aziz just need to stop riding his jock.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:50 | 3044352 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Aziz should spend less time on Reddit as well ;)

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:15 | 3044248 WallowaMountainMan
WallowaMountainMan's picture

why should health care be any different than defense than financial than oil than than than than...

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:28 | 3044287 11b40
11b40's picture

....than, than, well, politics.

Jim DeMint just resigned form the Senate, not even half way through his term, to cash in as the new head of the Heritage Club.  New salary $1,000,000 Plus.

The Citizens United case unleashed vast sums of money for the political 'consultants', 'advisors', PACS (& their armies of 'employees), advertising agencies, and on and on.  I bet Karl Rove raked in generational wealth for himself in this past election cycle & no telling how much his cronies siphoned off.

Revolving door, indeed.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:09 | 3044395 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Nothing less should have been expected, future big spenders plan their carrer's accordingly. Now he becomes what he legislated, it's as easy and simple as that. But who now breaks the tie should joe be the 50 th vote and only a cliff to enjoy the view? 

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 00:42 | 3044985 mvsjcl
mvsjcl's picture

And, on a similar note:

"Rep. Jo Ann Emerson (R-Mo.), freshly reelected to her ninth term in Congress, announced Monday that she would resign in February and become the president and chief executive of the National Rural Electric Cooperative Assn., the top donor to her campaigns during her congressional career."

No snarky comment needed.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:15 | 3044249 Frank N. Beans
Frank N. Beans's picture

America -- the best goddam crony capitalist nation on earth

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:16 | 3044250 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

My life has not changed one bit since passage...I have had friends who have watched as their premiums have surged recently. I cannot judge the program until I see something that says it even exists. Amazingly we've been going on a year and...well... "no progress on that either." so I will withhold judgement until then. The idea that everyone should have health insurance certainly does NOT bother me.'I think anyone who says otherwise is a nut. This is 'merica tho!

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:25 | 3044282 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

You must be one of those who sticks around when the water goes back out into the ocean.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:10 | 3044366's picture


The idea that everyone should have health insurance certainly does NOT bother me.


Fining young, healthy people for not purchasing a service made up mostly of air is a great idea! Especially since Obama adviser Robert Reich said that the young who don't use much medical care should be forced to pay more but when they get old and need care they'll be left to die. He really said that. And the Berkley crowd cheered.


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:56 | 3044515 nmewn
nmewn's picture

All these young idealistic folks make me want to retire early, take up smoking, drinking, drugs, partake in unprotected group sex with complete strangers, eat unlimited amounts of Twinkies washed down with Big Gulps and then have them support me.

They're such good people ;-)

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:53 | 3044911's picture



All these young idealistic folks make me want to retire early, take up smoking, drinking,


What took you so long? Slacker.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 08:19 | 3045252 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

I'm lovin' it.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 09:04 | 3045275 nmewn
nmewn's picture

In their zeal for fairness and equality, they bind themselves to the only things that can take fairness & equality away from them...the alliance of corporations & government.

Its remarkable really.

At some point you would think they would approach the universities and ask for their money back or at least toilet paper their fascist professors homes ;-)

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 09:15 | 3045284 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

as someone in this area for many decades: if you like waiting in ER's for hours before treatment you will love your new  obuma care. we are having more and more shortages of medications as generic co's cut each others throats until cost of production = cost of product. all pushed by .gov, India loves making shit drugs for Americans, but that's all we can afford.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:54 | 3044913 goodrich4bk
goodrich4bk's picture

And you either think people won't actually watch your linked video or are too stupid to understand that is NOT what Reich said.

He said that IF any presidential candidate was honest, that candidate would tell the public that affordable healthcare for everybody is possible only if three things occur: 1) younger people pay more into the system; 2) old people are not given every available life extending treatment but at some point are allowed to die; and 3) we accept that we probably won't live longer than our parents did.

This is exactly what every thinking ZHer here knows and understands is the truth.  I guess you can't handle the truth, but that's your problem, not ours.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 01:28 | 3044987's picture

So Obamacare can only be affordable if it costs young healthy people more and if bureaucrats determine when an old person's time is up? Funny, but that's what I thought I said. Why the attitude?

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 14:39 | 3045684 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

"..what Reich said."

WTF????  Anyone even remotely educated and not falling into the category of hopelessly ignorant and illiterate won't pay any attention whatsoever to that moronic stooge, Robert Reich, who doesn't understand arithmetic nor large data sets.

I mean, just recently that clown prattled on about the 70% consumption factor of the economy, and STILL DOESN'T FRIGGIN UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S THE TOP 15% WHICH ACCOUNTS FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF THAT CONSUMPTION RATE!!!!!!

(Due to the extraordinary concentration of wealth today, thanks to the Klepto-Plutocracy.)

I mean, any sane human who read Reich's pile of mindless drivel, The Work of Nations, has to have long concluded he's a complete idiot --- and his mindless comments when he was with the Clinton Administration, saying "I don't know why there are so few jobs being created...."  during a previous "jobless recovery"  --- very well should know Reich publicly announces to all that he's a bloody idiot!

[Disclaimer:  I have nothing personal against the idiot, Reich, just wish he would declare himself either a republicon --- or STFU!]

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:46 | 3044251 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Welcome aboard Liz... Now you can recruit all those GOP lobbyists...?  /s

  You're all the same Animal, with a different colored name tag/ Color blind maggots!

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:19 | 3044261 Crtrvlt
Crtrvlt's picture

Heritage was architect in 1989
Romney was godfather
Fowler is the pawn who wrote down what the private health companies told her to write

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:31 | 3044297 11b40
11b40's picture

Bingo!  You are pretty smart for a bag head ;-)

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 11:20 | 3045389 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Heritage is, among other things, a think tank. They dropped the idea after they thought it through more carefully. They found that it would infringe on the peoples liberty & freedom, which it does.

If we're going to be totally honest here, it actually came from Alain Enthoven of Stanford, yet another tenured professor (who coulda knowed). It's very easy to promote tinkering with other peoples lives and incomes when yours (sitting on corporate boards & tenured faculty) will not be seriously impacted by the results.

A decent Forbes article on the subject:

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 11:25 | 3045399 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

fee for service was killed by .gov...too bad it had it's own reward for good service and good medicine.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:21 | 3044263 NuYawkFrankie
NuYawkFrankie's picture

Liz Fowler

Liz FOULer - fixed

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:49 | 3044350 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Liz FoulAIR - fixed better

LIES Foulair - fixed best

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:23 | 3044268 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

Obamacare will be the death blow to the head...

Meanwhile, the locust plague (AKA Washington DC), squabbles over who should put a band-aid on the gaping hole in the chest cavity (AKA the federal deficit).

Sleep well while you can.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:30 | 3044295 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

I will sleep better when this shit blows up.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:51 | 3044361 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Which is why it won't happen.

Like the rise of the Dark Ages, it takes a long time to play out.

Remember, every second the can is kicked, is a second they spend looting wealth. Only once the majority of all of the wealth is gone, will it break down.

By then, it'll be FEMA-camp nation.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 08:22 | 3045253 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

I'm okay with that.

My old cellmate told me I look sexy in a jumpsuit.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:30 | 3044293 mc_LDN
mc_LDN's picture

If anyones interested on how common this approach is becoming please read this book by Janine Wedel called "Shadow Elite". This book is instrumental in documenting how the government and private sectors are morphing into each other in myriad ways. Pretty soon we wont know the difference.

Governments and administrations come and go, but not so a new breed of power brokers, who always seem to pop up just where the action is. Wearing different hats, they press their agendas in venue after venue. According to award-winning public policy scholar and anthropologist Janine Wedel, these are the 'shadow elite', the prime movers in a vexing new system of power and influence. In "Shadow Elite", Wedel charts how these players make public decisions without public input - in realms from domestic to foreign and financial policy. Maneuvering through their many spheres of influence, they challenge both governments' rules of accountability and businesses' codes of competition, ultimately answering only to each other. From the Harvard economists who helped privatise post-Soviet Russia and the neoconservatives who helped privatize American foreign policy for thirty years (culminating with the debacle that is Iraq) to many lesser-known global operators, these players flout once-sacrosanct boundaries between state and private, bureaucracy and market. This new breed, unseen by most, is steadily gaining power. Original and eye-opening, "Shadow Elite" gives us the tools we need to recognize these players and understand the new system - which we ignore at our peril.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 14:53 | 3045699 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Oh, for crissakes, you of the most highly undeducated, mc_LDN:

".....Janine Wedel called "Shadow Elite".

She is just another pay-for-play C. Wright Mills lackey type, meant to redirect and obfuscate, next you'll be recommending Kevin Phillips, Barry Lynn and other stooges of the bank cartel.  (You think it's just a "coincidence" that Ariana Huffington gushed and gushed on about Wedel?????)

By misdirecting everything to the lower level of the political theater of the absurd, she works for the Wall Streeters who wish to forever absolve themselves of their crimes (heard any speeches from Noam Chomsky lately?  Where he claims the Wall Streeters are all decent guys, and it's the system!!!??!??!).

The Chaos Primer
We use the word "chaos" in the title as that is the way in which the financiers, those senior capital holders, increase their wealth in the usual manner, e.g., corner the chocolate market, then finance violence and turmoil in the major chocolate producing country, massive concentrated speculation in the oil/energy markets, fomenting wars, etc.
The Breakdown, Bitchez
I may have been the first commenter on the Web to cite the example of the comparison of obvious fire insurance fraud to their economic weapons of mass destruction:  a criminal covertly purchases numerous insurance policies against his neighbor's home, then burns it to the ground, and collects many times over for his act of arson.
Many attacked those of us who presented this example, and yet recent history has proven us 100% correct --- dead center on the bull's eye of the target.
The prime example:  John Paulson and his hedge fund, Goldman Sachs et al.
Paulson and Goldman Sachs met and devised a CDO, the Abacus CDO, made up of the crappiest loans possible (guaranteed to default), then they purchased a boatload of credit default swaps (CDS, called naked swaps when the purchaser has no immediate connection to the investment, as was the case with Paulson), and then made a fortune --- as in $3.4 billion for Paulson and billions for Goldman Sachs.
You see, for each CDS purchased at $1.4 million Paulson had purchased, the payout was $100 million, and he purchased oodles and oodles of them.
So AIG's Financial Products group sold $460 billion of those unregulated insurance policies , or CDSes, with no capital on hand to back up a potential payout of between $20 trillion to over $40 trillion (note, the currency amount was in the trillions --- hence the bailouts from the US Treasury along with over $23 trillion pumped out worldwide by the Federal Reserve Bank (we know it was over $23 trillion, but not how much over as there's never been a forensic audit of the Federal Reserve).
Magnetar Capital followed the same financial fraud process --- 96% of their deals went bad, yet they walked away with billions.  Ever wonder how those private equity guys make so much money while destroying companies (and employment) all the time?  Well, now you know!
Now, since the US Treasury is adamant that the naked swap continues to exist and thrive, this situation will occur again and again and again, only far worse, as debt has accumulated --- their debt that is, the stuff they keep shoveling onto the rest of us while screaming for austerity for the rest of us!  (Not surprising, given that the Treasury is comprised of so many Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase alumni.)
Torpedoes of Trust
I usually don't quote Charlie Sheen, but this is an apt phrase.
Around 2004, the Mortgage Bankers Association and the FBI announced an epidemic of mortgage fraud --- no, not the banksters, who were actually and actively behind it, but individuals who they claimed purchased houses which they couldn't afford and then flipped them or purchased houses they couldn't afford and lived there until evicted --- thus artificially setting the stage for the future disinformation campaign on the causes of that meltdown (see previous paragraph for that).
A bizarre bit of news that was, especially given that the FBI has been orchestrating all those phony "terrorist events" over the past decade; the most recent one written about in a most outstanding and succinct fashion by Arun Gupta.
The FBI typically goes into the poorest of neighborhoods and, using various snitches, etc., supplies some wayward and needy youth with money, and keeps pointing them towards some terrorist act or other, then makes their "newsworthy" bust for all to see.
Of course, all during this time their director has been Robert Mueller III.  Raised in a wealthy family --- on the Truesdale side, connected to the Rockefeller Railroad Trust, William Truesdale was one of those involved with the Rockefeller South Improvement Company, which rigged transportation prices and either would ship only Rockefeller products, or give special preference and discounts to Rockefeller products, thus removing any and all competition from the market.  (The organization still exists to this very day, only it's now officially a government agency, the Surface Transportation Board.)
[There was an attorney, George Truesdale, who was involved in defending the Rockefeller people responsible for blowing up the refineries of competitors, but it's unclear if he's related to the Mueller-Truesdale family.]
Robert Mueller III was first appointed to the DOJ at the time of Iran-Contra proceedings; later he was promoted during President George H.W. Bush time to be chief of DOJ's criminal division when the BCCI investigation began getting closer to the White House, but fortunately for them Mueller managed to quash it.
One week prior to 9/11, Robert Mueller III would become the director of the FBI; another auspiciously timed appointment.
A number of books have recently been published, all promoting Robert Mueller III as a pristine, stalwart shining knight of the justice system --- contrary to the reality of his background.
Should the powers-that-be happen to be positioning the FBI director for a 2016 presidential candidacy, the FBI has at least succeeded in removing one possible competitor, Gen. Petraeus, the former director of the CIA.
(Interesting to note that Mueller is the grandnephew of Richard Bissell, one of the three top CIA people President Kennedy fired before he was assassinated, and Mueller's wife is the granddaughter of Gen. Cabell, another of those top three!)
From 1960 to 1970, the richest families in America were the Rockefellers, Morgans, Mellons and du Ponts.  David Rockefeller, in 1960, was estimated to be worth approximately $30 billion, yet today he is "officially" worth only $2 billion?
In 1970, the Mellon family was estimated to be the third richest family on the planet --- yet today we are supposed to believe they are also-rans in the wealth department?
Ditto for the du Ponts, Guggenheims, etc.
Simon Johnson, former IMF stooge, now a professor of "economics" at MIT, would have us believe that Rockefeller gave away all his money; this is called philanthropy, as in the case when the super-rich purchases a piece of art for $100,000, then values it at $1 million, and donates it to a museum, deducting $700,000 on their tax returns --- a cool profit of $600,000 --- philanthropy?
The Mellons were called philanthropists when they first established their foundations, yet these foundations took in more monies from tax exemptions than they ever paid out in donations (assuming those were real charitable donations and not more financial scams), but their foundations and trusts were ideal tax-exempt structures to hide wealth and ownership of other companies, more trusts, securities, and other investments, etc.
How many foundations and trusts does the Rockefeller family have?  No one truly knows, but certainly over 35 in number.
Since 1970, it has been almost impossible to track the wealth of the uber-rich, with offshore trusts, unregistered trusts, endless holding companies obscuring ownership.
The American public is led to believe the richest Americans are named Gates and Buffett --- and while they certainly enjoy gargantuan wealth --- their fortunes are reported using public sources by Forbes magazine, and the super-rich primarily list their wealth in private places (and if you believe a Forbes or a Rockefeller, you are one gullible rube!).
The super-rich can afford the most extensive and subtle propaganda networks and conduits.  Kevin Phillips is supposed to be a former conservative who writes critically of conservatives, yet an article of his in the ostensibly "leftist" or "progressive" Harper's magazine, blamed the economic meltdown on the CPI (Consumer Price Index) --- a patently absurd pronouncement!
Barry Lynn also has written confusing drivel for Harper's --- plus a number of murky, confusing books of drivel:  Lynn is a fellow at the New America Foundation, financed by the oil people, that is, the Pew Charitable Trusts, and Rockefeller protégé, Peter G. Peterson.
Notice anything suspicious about the aforementioned?
The present consists of magical fiction and magical beliefs, where no one knows who owns the oil corporations, the banks, the pharmaceutical corporations, the weapons makers, etc., nor do we really know who the super-rich are today.  We are told the Koch brothers' combined wealth makes them the richest at $80 billion, but estimating the wealth of those four richest in the decade from 1960 to 1970, each an estimated worth of between $30 billion to $50 billion back then, one might guestimate they are worth at least hundreds of billions today.
Sources and suggested reading:

Wealth, Power and the Crisis of Laissez Faire Capitalism, by Donald Gibson
The Fine Print, by David Cay Johnston
Extreme Money, by Satyajit Das
Retirement Heist, by Ellen Schultz
The Rich and the Super-Rich, by Ferdinand Lundberg
Wall Street Capitalism:  the Theory of the Bondholding Class, by E. Ray Canterbery

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 17:49 | 3045947 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

Okay, your comments are great. Please, please tell me that you are not a believer of the official story of 911. I have never thought that you are, but I had to ask. :)

Sun, 12/09/2012 - 09:59 | 3046697 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

when abdication to personal responsibility can be bought and profited from (through insurance), then all shit seems to flow down from there.   is it a coincidence that it is called the FIRE economy?

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:31 | 3044298 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

I am starting to see more slant eyes in higher positions

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:32 | 3044299 lunaticfringe
lunaticfringe's picture

When they drag out the guillotine and get Hank Paulson, Angelo Mozilo, and Jon Corzine let this selfish bitch not be left...too far behind.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:32 | 3044300 falak pema
falak pema's picture

circular logic of the crony world of Oligarchs.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 22:23 | 3044326 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

falak pema   That was the best comment!  I've heard in ages!   You made my week/ What happened to common sense ?

 1+1=2   cents- perhaps  ¢


  pieces of eight?

  i underestimated you/ Fakek palma lost some special people in his life!

  His name sake represents "Dobermins"

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:32 | 3044303 jomama
jomama's picture

Liz Fowler - Destroyer of the public option. 

And Obummer worshippers still defend the PPACA, saying it's a step in the right direction.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:38 | 3044309 Bawneee Fwank
Bawneee Fwank's picture
The Sebelius Coverup Obamacare’s insurance exchanges need scrutiny.


posted this in another thread the other day...goes right along with this article...funny how all this shit is coming out AFTER the election.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:38 | 3044315 slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

In the French revolution they killed entire families, I'm starting to understand why...

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 14:56 | 3045709 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture


You got it, my brother (or sister).

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:47 | 3044344 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

Let me guess. This bitch is an Ivy League grad. The best sociopaths come from the Ivy League.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:34 | 3044874 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

PhD in Biomedical Engineering from MIT.

Sorry.....just kidding.

Law degree from U Minnesota.    Was there any doubt....

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 02:58 | 3045114 e-recep
e-recep's picture

sociopath or selfish? i think rage is blinding everybody.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 10:15 | 3045326 Cosimo de Medici
Cosimo de Medici's picture

I'm feeling kind of picked on here.  Anti-Ivy, anti-physician.....perhaps you or your loved one will read my new book on DIY bypass, valve replacement and transplants.  And after all, who doesn't know that old song, "the hip bone's connected to the leg bone, the leg bone's connected to........".  Can't be too hard.  In fact, it's so easy, anyone from DeVry or ITT Tech could do it.  Sure.

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 18:05 | 3045963 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

I wouldn't wipe my ass with anything you wrote. I'd be afraid to burn it.


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:54 | 3044365 Abraham Snake
Abraham Snake's picture

As I recall, over 2000 years ago, the Republic of Rome strictly forbade revolving door activity. It's really no secret that these egregious conflicts of interest are corrosive to good public policy.

So anyway, our family has employer sponsored health insurance. We are lucky yes? Well the problem is that the premiums put a massive wallop on our paycheck, about 16%. Ouch! That's almost our rent! And when we get sick, well, tough luck, because doctor visits require high copays, several days worth of groceries for a few minutes. Then there will be one or more high cost prescriptions to save for. Usually the doctor does a pretty good job of milking several visits for any ailment. Have a cough, a rash, a pain? Begin extreme saving! Better yet, just tough it out. Do the kids need immunizations for school? Go to the county health department but lie to them, say you don't have insurance, the immunizations there cost about 1/3 of a copay.

This health insurance is sucking our paycheck dry and we are effectively blocked from generally seeking treatment because additional costs are prohibitively high.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:57 | 3044371 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Excellent post

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:54 | 3044891 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Just give all your money to JEWS... [bankers, lawyers, doctors, insurance agents, political lobbyists, MIC lobbyists... HELL ~ even go to their movies, read their preponderent journalism, watch their slave franchise sports team leagues, and listen to their MK Ultra spawned music]... & you'll soon feel better...

There should be ZERO down arrows to my 'justified' instruction... You will... TRULY... Have better lives if you live by the words of francis_sawyer...



- NBA & NFL niggers don't understand the dynamic because they're too goddanmed fucking stupid...

- MLB 'spics' mostly don't understand &/or all their owners are in on the gig...

- NHL UNDERSTANDS [which is why you have not had a hockey season in 2 out of the last 3 years]...

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:16 | 3044410 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

Great post except you forgot to mention the $2000 deductible, so if you actually need a procedure they don't pay for shit.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:38 | 3044467 Divine Wind
Divine Wind's picture


I have spent at least a 1/3rd of my adult life living in 3rd world shitholes around the world.

Places where there is no robo surgery, MRIs, dialysis machines or CPAP machines.

Places where phrases like 'elective surgery' makes people scratch their heads.

Places where children are not given names until age 2 because the mortality rate is >40%.


I consider our healthcare system in the U.S. an enormous blessing.

Few countries compare.

Yes, it is imperfect.

Yes, it is expensive.

But it is the best.

I have ZERO problem paying well for excellent healthcare.


Fri, 12/07/2012 - 22:38 | 3044756 newengland
newengland's picture

I sympathise. I also know that horrible state of medicine abroad.

However, this is the United States of America, and it is wrong that international drug companies who make massive profit everywhere, due to their gift of living in the USA, cheat everyone with their overpriced drugs.

And cheat the citizens of the USA most where drugs and treatments are grotesquely a big part of gdp, and the enslavement of the ordinary person - contrary to the wish of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence which intended to make community, NOT corporatism...that sick way of Britain, Europe and most of the world.

Gold, silver, guns and the 10th Amendment - good.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 23:17 | 3044825 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

That's bs.  The US has the most expensive health care in the world, not the best.  People with no insurance and cash, travel to various Medical Tourism destinations.  Calcutta, Singapore, Thailand, S Korea, and many others. 

You ask why rich foreigners come to America for care?  They come to hospitals like John Hopkins, Mass Gen, or Mayo Clinic.  But the hospitals you and i go to are on par, or below par with MT destinations. 


Sat, 12/08/2012 - 17:03 | 3045898 SilverSavant
SilverSavant's picture

Thank goodness our health care system will kill you fast.   You deserved every bit of it. 

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 21:42 | 3044609 Catullus
Catullus's picture

Here's what the actual prices of some of these procedures are.  What you'll find is that by buying the put option called "health insurance" every month, you end up paying what you would have for the actual procedure in premiums alone.

You'd rather just have $20k in cash and negotiate a price when you need to get a procedure done.

Sun, 12/09/2012 - 01:12 | 3046497 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Usually the doctor does a pretty good job of milking several visits for any ailment.

Insurance companies will not pay for more than one major complaint per visit.  So, while the doctor could efficiently patch up all 6 of your major compaints in one visit, he won't because he will only get paid for the work involved with one of your complaints.  For the doctor to get paid for his work from the the insurance company, he has to make you come back on successive days.  The doctor is not causing this problem; the insurance companies are.

You'd rather just have $20k in cash and negotiate a price when you need to get a procedure done.

If you have PPO insurance, and your doctor is a participating provider, he cannot charge you any more than what the insurance company says he can.  If you have no insurance, and want to pay cash, the doctor can and will charge you whatever he wants.  Therefore, it pays to have some insurance, even if you have to pay out of pocket because all the insurance money goes to your deductible.  The amount the doctor can charge you will be much less (because your insurance company limits that) than it would be if you had no insurance and were paying cash.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 19:58 | 3044375 booboo
booboo's picture

Hey, the leaky tramp has to work somewhere

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:02 | 3044381 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

Stop buying Tylenol. 

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 20:07 | 3044392 Divine Wind
Divine Wind's picture



In my book she is far more evil, at the core, than most of the other turds inside the beltway.

We all have aging parents, family members who are sick or handicapped, etc...

How people can intentionally screw the masses at this level can only be described as evil.

How anyone, even J&J, could trust having her in their organization is beyond me.  Is her next jump to a J&J competitor?

It will be interesting to see if any of the supposed RIGHT-leaning shows like Rush, Hannity, Huck or Beck work this story.


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