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Meanwhile In Lansing, Michigan...

Tyler Durden's picture


Hours ago, the US labor union movement was dealt another crushing blow (the most recent being the recent liquidation of Hostess which left thousands of workers cold and unemployed just in time for Thanksgiving) when the Michigan legislature gave final approval to "right-to-work" restrictions on public sector unions in a state considered a stronghold of organized labor. In the meantime, over 10,000 protesters had gathered outside the legislature, chanted in the gallery, and generally expressed their displeasure quite vocally with this development that further set back labor in its endless fight against capital. As Reuters reports, "the House passed the measure making membership and payment of union dues voluntary for public sector employees such as teachers by a 58-51 vote.  The only government workers excluded would be police and fire unions. The Senate approved the same bill last week so it will now go to Republican Governor Rick Snyder, who has promised to sign it into law."

Incidentally, these same workers would be better advised to direct their anger at Chairman Bernanke who has done everything in his power in the past several years to shift the balance of power far more in benefit of capital courtesy of ZIRP and zero cost of capital, which allows companies to cut as many workers as needed in order to pursue the almight bottom line dollar, while extracting unprecedented productivity gains out of those still employed, as workers no longer can fall back on savings and are forced to accept any labor conditions in a New Normal world in which living paycheck to paycheck is becoming the norm for most, and thus giving employers all the leverage.

But that is a philosophical debate for a different place. But for now, here are two short clips to serve as a harbinger of what may and most likely will happen in the US as labor unions are stripped of even more power in the coming months and years, showcasing their reluctance to go gentle into that good night. This is how close the US is from violence at any one moment.

Luckily, nobody was seriously hurt this time.

Has the Syntagma riotcam finally crossed the Atlantic?


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Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:36 | 3052935 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

MDB please forward this to Hairy Ramiro.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:41 | 3052960 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

I honestly dont know whose side I would support on this. One side are the greedy execs who lives off bribery and wants to rape every dollar from the general public OR the lazy bums which the Unions are protecting who are all getting paid more for doing less and also raping the taxpayer's money. Tough call.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:43 | 3052978 ACP
ACP's picture

Not really a tough call. Unions never had a place in the puclic sector, ever.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:53 | 3053027 Texas Ginslinger
Texas Ginslinger's picture

The tent put-em-up-&-take-em-down union folks must have been rightly pissed off when that mob pulled the tent down in rapid fashion.

I guess they could file a grievance.?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:10 | 3053053 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

If the prerequisite for union membership was you had to climb 8 stairs in under 2 minutes, membership would drop drastically.  Taking their money away is asking for a problem - just institute the 8 stair rule.... lol.

As I've mentioned before, and as evidenced in that clip, 2 average human legs are not designed to support 200 lbs each leg, or 400 lbs total.  The engineering just ain't there.

So y'all fightin' over worker dues, money, days off, etc.... while slumbering around at 300 lbs plus, is simply indicative of a larger, more putrid human problem this society faces:  Laziness! 


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:20 | 3053104 redpill
redpill's picture

If people haven't seen it already, I recommend watching the entire video below, it's worth every minute of the hour running-time.  But in the context of this discussion, you can skip to the 20:18 mark and listen to perhaps the most succinct 5 minute dismantling of trade unions ever articulated.  And then some more on the topic around 33:00 minutes.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:21 | 3053150 Chief KnocAHoma
Chief KnocAHoma's picture

The main group this new regulation should apply to is government employees - local, state and federal. 

If a business unionizes, the business has choices. 1- They can negoiate with the workers or 2 - pack up and move to non-union confines.

But what option do governments have thussly - tax payers. If my local school teachers suck OUT LOUD, what is the county suposed to do? It is immobile and must deliver the service to its customers - tax payers - but may find itself captive of rediculous demands and hiring and firing restrictions. That is not fair to the end user the students.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:39 | 3053250 macholatte
macholatte's picture


Unions have simply failed to compete.  They offer nothing to the employer. [the only exception is public unions which offer votes to the politicians who support them] They do not train the workers, nor discipline them nor provide any benefits to the employer at all. They have become parasites. When a Union decides it needs to provide a pool of skilled workers and keep those people sober and functioning then management will probably desire to hire them and gladly pay the wages demanded. Untill then, they are adversaries. It's the same gerbal wheel.


The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
Alexis de Tocqueville


The unions say 'last hired - first fired,', we say hire and fire based on merit. We want the best and brightest in the classroom.
Scott Walker


I respect the state workers and I respect their unions, but we simply can't afford to pay benefits and pensions that are out of line with economic reality.
Andrew Cuomo


I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them.
Jimmy Hoffa


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:05 | 3053346 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

Detroit, and how it got that way.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 21:38 | 3054160 ACP
ACP's picture

There IS an upside however. Urban blight in Detroit makes for some really great photographic opportunities. Maybe they can host chaperoned (bodyguards) tours of the urban blight for amateur photographers?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 07:32 | 3058705 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Detroit is the perfect place to hold the FIghtclub can't do all that much harm to a place that is already demolished.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:21 | 3053400 kengland
kengland's picture

Competition? How do you "compete" in a mechantilist system? That's a fallacy. You've been had.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:02 | 3053504 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

Unions were originally formed to prevent the exploitation of workers. They have evolved into corrupt organizations that exploit any non union member for the benefit of the members.  Remind you of anything else?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:52 | 3053685 Bernank Sheeple
Bernank Sheeple's picture

Tony, the guy throwing the punches, is from the steel workers union

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 22:03 | 3054290 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Teamsters = Mafia  Just as bad as the other thugs running the economy at this point.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 05:35 | 3055032 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

I followed your link then googled the name and MI. The gentleman that shows up for the mugshot is an African American. On this video the guy I saw throwing heymakers was white.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:12 | 3053530 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

The game is and has been divide and the sheep collective bargaining cannot be tolerated just as a third party is a no no.......infiltrate and corrupt is a very simple technique then let the confused participants destroy themselves. Its a grand game and it has worked consistently. gl

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:22 | 3053401 ceilidh_trail
ceilidh_trail's picture

Boeing tried to do that with its move to South Carolina. Obammy put the screws to that... I have had to pay for private school for 10 years because of the crappy schools in my area. Sooo, I pay for public school employees and get zero and then pay again for an actual education. I watch a paid firefighter drive his tanker truck and/or ambulance by his house on duty. When zoning enforcement comes around to harrass homeowners about boats in driveways, his is always moved the day before... I call it the municipal mafia.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:57 | 3053498 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

He tried, but Boeing remains in SC along with BMW and many others.  There is alot of manufacturing in the upstate and more companies buying land on a regular basis as they flee the northern states.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:30 | 3053194 zuuma
zuuma's picture

I wouldn't be bothered a bit to hear that Mr. Chubby-mustache-punch-thrower got abducted and dragged a few miles over some nice, union-maintained Detroit potholes.

Wouldn't be bothered a bit.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:57 | 3053494 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

In my younger years I used to work at a moving company that delivered musical gear to stages in NYC.  All the stage hands were union.  The same work done by myself and my associate required 6 union guys and they got paid a full days work for 2 hours.  We got paid  $10/hour, they got at least $20, so the 2 hour job that cost my employer $60 including the truck, cost their employer $960 not including transport.

so, yeah, croccodile tears over here.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 20:17 | 3053767 thatthingcanfly
thatthingcanfly's picture

Redpill, Thanks for posting the youtube link of the speech by Yuri Bezmenov. I just watched the whole thing, and am blown away by this. In my four years at Annapolis, and 9 years as a Navy pilot, including numerous briefs from NCIS folks, I cannot remember once being exposed to a discussion of enemy demoralization and destabilization, when all it would have taken would have been one hour of playing this video. This should be REQUIRED viewing for all military officers.

This is why i read ZH.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 23:39 | 3054612 HL Shancken
HL Shancken's picture

Ask yourself why this information was withheld from you at Annapolis. Don't think of it as a rhetorical question. There is a concrete reason why. The collapse of the Soviet Union was staged. That is the truth, but you have been made never to consider that as a concept. You have been lied to, deceived by the military educational establishement, and it is as simple as that. Or, if you have at one time or another ruminated on the possiblity that the Soviet collapse was artificial, you either were persuaded by others or yourself that this was not the case. But it is a very important thing, this concept. It is reality.


Take five minutes and read this:



Tue, 12/11/2012 - 23:07 | 3054516 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Yuri!!! Almost 30 years have passed since his warnings. Detroit is a shit hole in the wake of union aftermath, and we still don't seem to get it.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:19 | 3053087 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

If I'm not mistaken, Right to Work doesn't outlaw unions, it just makes it VOLUNTARY to join a union.  Isn't this a FREE country?  "Although it is not explicitly protected in the First Amendment, the Supreme Court ruled, in NAACP v. Alabama,[169] freedom of association to be a fundamental right protected by it."  Freedom of association anyone?

These union thugs don't believe in freedom.  They want to control you even more than the company does.  Union mantra "Slow down!!!  You are making me look bad!!"

And these union pricks are the ones behind Obama and the socialization of this country.  Freedom and Liberty mean NOTHING to them.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:33 | 3053216 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Bingo.  If unions are so fucking wonderful, why would unions be so pissed about voluntary association?  Scratch that, I know the answer.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:35 | 3053230 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

They can't trust each other to pay their dues because they know they're all thieves. LOL

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:45 | 3053464 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

Yet you ignore the whole idea of contract law.  This prevents you from having an enforceable agreement.


Wed, 12/12/2012 - 09:41 | 3055336 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

Why can't someone bargan individually, and create a mutually beneficial contract between them and the employer?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:10 | 3053528 Daily Bail
Daily Bail's picture

Public Employee Unions Should Be Illegal.  When they strike, they are striking against taxpayers.  I care more about this photo than I do the fools in Michigan.

Hillary Clinton Checks Out Christina Aguilera's Boobs

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 23:12 | 3054546 Zymurguy
Zymurguy's picture

So much for being in "the party of choice" eh?

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 08:59 | 3055216 Zymurguy
Zymurguy's picture

Mrs. Zymurguy is a CPA and audits some unions around our brewery here... if the union workers only knew what their bosses and execs earned they would fucking shit their pants and leave the union faster than the stink could catch them.

I'm not even in a union and when I found out I pooped my pants, just a little... more like a shy turtle sticking its head out, but still, it was shocking.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:54 | 3053028 idea_hamster
idea_hamster's picture

AFP is a 100% astroturf movement.

Who do you root for in that confrontation?  

The only hope is that both sides run at each other, hit their heads together, and everyone gets some sense knocked into them.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:19 | 3053145 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture

Or they negate each other and simply disappear.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:35 | 3053224 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

I really am starting to fully understand the divide and conquer tactic.  let all of these tards duke it out while I watch it take place is much more fun than dealing with a wile haymaker from Fatty pants McGee.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:36 | 3053436 CH1
CH1's picture

I propose a new law:

Anyone who uses "astroturf" in any way but derisive jest should be beaten.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:26 | 3053174 curbyourrisk
curbyourrisk's picture

Just a note on that video.  It is not proof enough that they were actually drinking alcohol or actually smoking illegal substances.  So said an arbi"traitor" today.  Chrysler was dealt a blow when they were forced to re-hire such employees. 


Now I guess comes the lawsuits for defamation of character and back pay.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:40 | 3053191 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



United Auto Workers taking care of business, everyday!

From yesterday's Detroit News...

Chrysler Group LLC says it was forced to reinstate 13 workers who were fired from its Jefferson North Assembly Plant two years ago after being filmed by a local television station drinking and smoking what the network suggested was a controlled substance before and during work.


"After more than two years, an arbitrator decided in the workers' favor, citing insufficient conclusive evidence to uphold the dismissals.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:44 | 3053271 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Oh the HORROR!!  Who in their right mind would think ANYONE should be fired for NOT doing their job?

Once again, there's no moral hazard.  Why work if there is no risk of getting fired?

Funny how it took the arbitrator 2 years to make a decision too.  Can you say "milk the clock"?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 23:03 | 3054502 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

If you buy from GM, you deserve what you get.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:18 | 3053392 rpboxster
rpboxster's picture

I know of instances where theft, alcohol and drugs not only don't get you fired in a union, you get paid not to work while attending counseling.  Steal from the company, keep it, and take a vaction at counseling.  Sweet gig.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:05 | 3053518 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

NSW Health????

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 20:16 | 3053766 SlimJimDodger
SlimJimDodger's picture

Obligatory video of those same pukes getting their jobs back. Goddamn this shit angers me.


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:53 | 3053030 FL_Conservative
FL_Conservative's picture

You beat me to it, ACP.  Thanks!

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:26 | 3053161 ACP
ACP's picture

If you haven't heard of this one, here's an extreme example of how PUBLIC UNIONS LITERALLY KILL PEOPLE:

Alameda, CA police & firefighters watch a man for an hour in the water until he drowns, because of a contract dispute. Union scum. That's right, I said it, and I'll say it again. UNION SCUM.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:39 | 3053243 hourglass86
hourglass86's picture


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:52 | 3053297 ACP
ACP's picture

The spidey senses told me someone would say that.

Just because I dislike public unions doesn't mean I love bankers. That logic eludes me.

I don't know how many times I've stated quite clearly, that the BANKER SCUM who caused our current problems deserve to be HANGED.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:13 | 3053371 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

In both cases (union thugs and bankster criminals) you are talking about unchecked moral hazard and absolute power corrupting absolutely.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 08:30 | 3055165 mvsjcl
mvsjcl's picture

AFL-CIO head belonged to CFR. That's all that needs to be said. Just another tool for the bigger tools.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:47 | 3053470 CH1
CH1's picture

That logic eludes me.

Probably union trolls.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 23:37 | 3054606 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

It's called the Hegelian dialectic. Are you for the spotted owl or do you like trees? Etc.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:09 | 3053358 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

Easy now Union boy, I know it hurts but you know you are overpaid and lazy to boot, I have had to deal with your whiney asses several times you shall recieve what you got coming. just face it like a man..

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:44 | 3053461 GubbermintWorker
GubbermintWorker's picture

What? They won't get their gold plated retirements complete with health care ad infinatum? 


The horror.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 20:36 | 3053850 klockwerks
klockwerks's picture

HG, I think you might be the idiot. How do you go from unions to bankers. Sorry loser, no connection

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:44 | 3053269 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


Alameda firefighters could not even go into the water to get the body, so they waited until a woman in her 20s volunteered to bring the body back to the beach.

"The frustration is certainly understandable and I think the sensibility would be probably that we're going to evaluate our response protocols," Zombeck said.

and when you're done with that, evaluate your fucking humanity.

"Zombeck"  can't make this shit up. . .

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:17 | 3053139 lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

they're traitors.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:20 | 3053151 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Right.  But WTF does AFP have to do with that?  Why is AFP there with a tent?  I see Koch hoof prints.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:50 | 3053289 waterhorse
waterhorse's picture

hoof prints of the cloven variety?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:25 | 3053172 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

FORWARD, Soviets!

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:44 | 3052981 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

The problem is that they are the same side only different capitalization levels.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:47 | 3052999 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

deserving of each other

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:49 | 3053009 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

It's the easiest call in the world. Don't choose.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:56 | 3053047 Sauk Leader
Sauk Leader's picture

Union bosses are just as greedy as execs. Would this law allow non-union members to opt out of paying into an unfunded pension system that the union bosses take huge pensions without paying a nickel into?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:11 | 3053364 Dapper Dan
Dapper Dan's picture

Remember this?

No label on this hall / Non-union construction workers used to cut costs on new Teamsters building L.M. SIXEL Staff SAT 08/10/2002 Houston Chronicle, Section A, Page 01, 3 STAR Edition

Teamsters Union 988 is holding the grand opening this weekend for its new union hall, which is expected to feature Teamsters President James P. Hoffa.

But it has become a sour moment for other labor leaders because the Teamsters didn't use union construction workers. They were told by the Teamsters that union contractors cost too much.

"No one is happy about it," said Paul Dunnam, organizer of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 716.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:32 | 3053213 dbTX
dbTX's picture

Divided States: I don't consider this a close call, The union movement has hamstrung the states, it's now time to insure your job security and wage level by the work you are willing to individually perform.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:19 | 3053380 AldoHux_IV
AldoHux_IV's picture

That's the whole problem with America, we (read most Americans both left and right) don't know who or what to be mad about and effect change in, but we have every right to be mad about the system and want to effect change.  Where we will get stuck and fall along the way to truly fixing things are instances like this where both sides are wrong and there's no mechanism to move in the right direction because each side is steadfast onto things they feel entitled to.  Generally speaking most things are pretty fucked from the beginning when you look at it from a one side vs another.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 10:31 | 3055550 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

I usually lean toward the option that increases an individuals options.  In this case, it reinstates the ability of someone to NOT associate, which previoulsy had been a condition of employment.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:29 | 3053612 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

"I honestly dont know whose side I would support on this..."

I understand where you're coming from on this one. The corruption runs so deep through so many sectors of our society anymore that it's easy to give up on about all it.

However, I have to admit that the schmarmy fucker in the leather jacket got exactly what he deserved. Well, not quite as the puncher didn't know how to land a good one. I know, I know, free speech and all that crap, but I also know you union-hating conservativrs would say the same thing if a peace advocate got punched out at a pro-war rally for acting in the same manner as this arrogant ass. There's free speech and there's common sense it's usually best to use both.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:12 | 3053108 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

I see tha sacred cops and firefighters are left out of this muck like they were in WI. can't have the Praetorian guard pissed off- they might go on strike against writing speeding tickets and getting cats down out of trees.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:30 | 3053184 akak
akak's picture

Oh, but we have to do EVERYTHING possible for the "heroes"!


PS: It used to be that one was not automatically a "hero" just for doing the job that they were paid (extremely well) to do.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:55 | 3053307 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

thank the media(4th branch of govt) and 9/11

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:34 | 3053629 Esso
Esso's picture

God, I love ZH. It seems to be the last bastion of sanity in an insane world.

I suppose that means it will have to be destroyed.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:37 | 3053648 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

You noticed that 'little' detail too?  Don't firefighters and cops want the grand FREEDOM of being able to choose whether to be in a union or not?  The real meaning doesn't escape me but apparently is lost on many.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:43 | 3053264 LongBalls
LongBalls's picture

As we learned in Greece. If you work for the government and carry a gun/riot control arms, your pensions and rights will be stepped on last. Remember that policemen. What they use you to enforce, will be enforced on you in due time. I am not a fan of unions but I am a fan of low wages, crappy benefits, and poor work enviornments even less. The subject of unions is a tough one. If management would pay and care for their workforce instead of pocketing the collective profits and if labor would not hold management hostage for the same we would have balance. I guess the major issue when it comes to unions is their right to hold the tax payer hostage. That is B.S. But who cares.......we are circling the drain no matter what.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 21:03 | 3053976 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

it is so fitting....Fight Club is coming on on IFC....think I'll watch....and prepare.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 21:50 | 3054221 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

(288) 555-0153

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:36 | 3052936 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:36 | 3052937 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The fear of unions by the monied men were the reason that corporations were formed.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:48 | 3053006 Ineverslice
Ineverslice's picture


one step closer to the mattresses, Consigliare....and make sure they're clean.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:49 | 3053015 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

correct.  moreover, remind me, what percentage of America's workers are unionized today?  Less than 7% or something.  How many are working part-time or "under the table"?  Sorry, I just don't see those few remaining teachers unions getting too violent.  Fuck the monied men, they are destroying their own wealth by destroying reasonable unions leaving violence the only option as well as destroying the currency of their neighbors (who may actually know how to make shit), then the very "money" these "monied" men has becomes worthless.  Good plan morons.

I remain long black markets and any asset that can not be devalued by paper-pushers and their banking/corporate masters.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:27 | 3053183 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

I might agree with you, if we get rid of government unions.  They aren't working for "monied men" or corporations.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:47 | 3053280 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:07 | 3053349 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Again, get some facts about how many state and federal government workers are in fact unionized with a right to strike at any time realtive to the total population of state and federal workers or those working as a contractor.

Regarding your last comment, are you suggesting that federal employees (government workers) are not working for the "monied men"?!?!?

LMFAO!!!    The monied men own your representation dipshit.  They bought it via K-street quite some time ago.  Fucking halarious.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:07 | 3053350 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

"destroying reasonable unions"


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:14 | 3053381 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

Reasonable Unions? I have not had the pleasure to come across one..

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:51 | 3053479 CH1
CH1's picture

Reasonable Unions? I have not had the pleasure to come across one.

Nor have I, and I've known many.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:50 | 3053475 CH1
CH1's picture

The fear of unions by the monied men were the reason that corporations were formed.

That was really stupid, Hendrix. I KNOW you can do better than that.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:38 | 3052940 killallthefiat
killallthefiat's picture

Ammo bitchez

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:03 | 3053071 Vashta Nerada
Vashta Nerada's picture

Pinkerton must be rolling over in his grave to see union violence not responded to appropriately.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:39 | 3052942 JKearney3153
JKearney3153's picture

i miss the good ol' days where big corporations were balanced by big Unions and big gov't

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:39 | 3052943 bobthehorse
bobthehorse's picture

I believe in unions.

Does that make me a filthy communist?

Or am I a dirty socialist?

Unions protect workers. 

The last thing I want is to slave away for nothing like a China man.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:45 | 3052967 redpill
redpill's picture

Wrong, unions protect unions.  They protect their own infrastructure.  If you don't think they squash workers without a second thought along the way to meet their own long-term goals you have your head in the sand.

Conceptually there is nothing wrong with collective bargaining, for many industries it would be to the workers' advantage as long as that relationship is held in check by a very real possibility that their group could get busted if their demands become too unreasonable.  The problem is that when it becomes mandated, promoted and protected by federal law, it immediately yields corruption, not worker protection.  It destroys industries, it doesn't save them.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:57 | 3053046 Cursive
Cursive's picture


It's time everyone stop the in-fighting and focus the attention squarely where it belongs:  on the banking elite (the proverbial hand) and the political class (the proverbial glove).  Replace "unions" with "bankers" and then re-read what you wrote.  The root problem is not the unions, they are only a symptom of easy money policies.  The root problem is the Federal Reserve, allowing a private institutional to control our money supply, fractional reserve lending and the political class that promotes this. 

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:00 | 3053059 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Cursive the Bankers and the Unions are both infected. It does not matter how at this point. They both need to be amputated.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:05 | 3053082 JKearney3153
JKearney3153's picture

amputated? completely annihilated? revolution or evolution? They both piss me off like no other, but where would we be without Unions in the 1930's 40's and 50's? Bernankers, though? Different story. I suggest we go Big Brother on THEM and completely eliminate them from history

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:11 | 3053098 Cursive
Cursive's picture


The hard unions are and will be amputated.  There is a big difference between teamsters/UAW on one hand and SEIU on the other.  The government unions, the service unions, will be the last to go.  But, the social reset does not happen if the rent seeking bankers are allowed to continue to suck the life blood from the citizenry.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:08 | 3053094 samsara
samsara's picture

Cursive,  Big Up Vote

Yes,  Let's (bankers talking)  find a new divide and conquer to keep them fighting amongst themselves.

Gay/Straight is not being effective enough anymore,,,,    Let's go with Union/Non-Union.  We can keep'm fighting each other for another few years while we Continue to rob both of them. 

Joe,  Get some colorful news feed,  get some presstitutes to rev this one up.  Show them distroying property,  Then show them smoking pot before burning a building down....  Something like that there.



Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:13 | 3053117 redpill
redpill's picture

The merger of large unions and government is no less corrupt than the merger of large banks with government.  They extract their pound(s) of flesh in different ways, but they are variations of the same disease.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:26 | 3053176 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

All three are taxing authorities and exist only for that purpose.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:57 | 3053049 FL_Conservative
FL_Conservative's picture

Right on, Redpill.  Unions USED to protect the workers....until they got a taste of how it enriched those at the top of the union structure.  Then it became all about what in it for THEM.  Funny....I can say the exact same thing about the vast majority of our (criminal) political class.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:11 | 3053103 tbone654
tbone654's picture

unions are no different than "street gangs"...    Where is the mob anyway?  they have just gone legit and now put their own in high paying union jobs...   and the underlings support them and protect them with fists...  sheesh!

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:18 | 3053136 Matt
Matt's picture

What do we want?


When do we want it?


Unions are just another form of representative democracy. The primary objective of the incumbent, is to remain the incumbent. 

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:29 | 3053193 Sauk Leader
Sauk Leader's picture

Those at the top will do anything to prevent their own staff from organizing

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:17 | 3053548 Freddie
Freddie's picture

The union dues are a big slush fund for mobsters and politcians.  Unions ARE organized crime.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:16 | 3053118 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Unions protect blue state democrats as well. Especially the public unions. I personally have no problem with private company unions and in fact think they provide a great service in lots of situations.

However why do government workers need unions? I see that as a major problem of conflict with tax payers and the governing elite parties.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:28 | 3053175 Jugdish
Jugdish's picture

Unions=Collectivism. Collectivism not good for man like me. Man like me smarter and work harder'longer than fat dumb man like you. Man like me don't want to be equal with ladyboy like you. Man like me want more cause man like me produce more. Man like me no workie 12 hrs a day. Man like me rather rob crack dealers who drive around with shiny rims an have white man's dollars.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:43 | 3053671 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

don't you find it a little odd that the nation has had its manufacturing gutted and NOW this is being done when unions make up less the 10% of the workforce?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 22:17 | 3054344 Matt
Matt's picture

Nobody complains about having a smaler slice of the pie during times of plenty. It is only during a famine that people fight over crumbs.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:49 | 3052998 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Saying Unions protect workers at this point is the same thing as saying to me that Wall street ensures orderly markets. Both are wildy out of control. They each grab for more and more for themselves because they think the other one is the bad guy. The non union, non wall street worker is getting shred at the expense of both Unions and Wall street. Fuck that. Enough is enough. They both need to go.

Harry Ramiro's union boss and Jon Corzine should be fighing and clawing each other at some federal pound me in the ass prison to see who can avoid getting violated first, and it should be on pay per view.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:53 | 3053021 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

correct, reasonable unions have been intentionally destroyed.  At this point nothing changes without total reset.  the moral hazard is simply too large now.  These type of things do nothing but show how easily the sheep are divided and conquered.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:17 | 3053127 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Reasonable gangs? Surely you jest?

I'm all for the right of free association, but granting special privileges to collectives (that are not possessed by individuals) is the very recipie for the disaster that's resulted.

It seems that everyone wants special treatment, without understanding that it's impossible, on the whole.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:47 | 3053228 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

interesting, "granting special privileges to collectives (that are not possessed by individuals)"

wasn't Adam Smith warning about granting special privileges (like easy bankrupcy and limited liability) to collectives possessed by individuals?

also known as corporations?

the basic natural form for humans is bands. like monkeys, we do not thrive alone. I know, you might be brainwashed by endless special-snowflake wonderful-consumer individualism, but the individual as-such is an imaginary construct. solitary confinement is still one of the worst tortures

so it's always about my gang vs your gang and let's gang up on the others

except when you talk, discuss, argue and bargain - which is what makes us human and different from animals

so yes, reasonable gangs is good and I fully agree with LawsOfPhysics' "correct, reasonable unions have been intentionally destroyed"

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:17 | 3053384's picture

That no man is an island is not the issue. Consider that there are groups which one can join voluntarily and there are groups which one may be compelled to join. Legitimacy lies exclusively with the former as only the individual can rightly chose with whom he will associate.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:51 | 3053467 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

and the groups you were born to? family, sept, clan, tribe, gens, social group, economic/status class, caste, race, religion, state and nation?


in theory it's still about the "closed shop" issue, isn't it? where does it come from?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:59 | 3053500 CH1
CH1's picture

and the groups you were born to? family, sept, clan, tribe, gens, social group, economic/status class, caste, race, religion, state and nation?

Here ya go:

family: I like some of mine, others I avoid.

sept, clan, tribe, gens: Guess someone missed those boxes on the birth certificate. Not that I give a shit.

social group: I have at least five of those.

economic/status class: This year, last year or ten years ago? And who makes such stupid definitions anyway?

race: I like a lot of folks with my general tint. I don't like others.

religion: Any religion I ever had was a matter of choice.

state: Fuck those thugs. 

nation: You mean the people who live on the same continent as me? Most of 'em are pretty cool.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:20 | 3053561's picture


in theory it's still about the "closed shop" issue, isn't it? where does it come from?


It comes from the use of fear and hatred to control individuals within groups. Negative emotions cause individuals to forgo reason and individual choice and follow the leader for the benefit of the leader. The net effect is negative overall and sometimes leads to spectacular failures.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:40 | 3053657 Acet
Acet's picture

There is a big clash between Europe and the US when it comes to unions because the laws relating to unions are different. There is no such thing as a "closed shop" (a company where only union members are allowed to work in) in Europe. Apparently in the US, there are laws forcing people to belong to an union under certain conditons.

The point is that unions are not a bad thing - it's the way many unions and unionizing laws work in the US that's broken.

Originally unions were born during the Industrial Revolution, to fight practices like employing kids in factorys, 14h/day, tied to the machines so that they wouldn't fall from sleep or to correct the extremelly dangerous conditions under which miners used to work because the bosses wanted to save money.

At its most essential, unions are just people pooling resources together to be able to negotiate in a position of balance with a company (which, itself, is also a pooling of resources together). It's not a bad concept.

It's the centralisation of power in unions and the takeover of political power by unions which, just its counterparty (centralisation of capital and takeover of political power by corporations), is the problem. At the end of the day, the real problem is the broken voting system in the US (think electoral circles, gerrymandering, registered voter laws and the like).

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 07:22 | 3054944 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

excellent comment

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:13 | 3053115 tbone654
tbone654's picture

markets are as orderly as they can be, having gone from fractions to decimal...  the unintended consequences of change...

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:14 | 3053121 CVfriendship
CVfriendship's picture

Unions educate workers as much as FINRA tests educate investment "professionals".

Major difference is that FINRA isn't majorly responsible for such a un productive/over-paid/lazy work-force...or maybe they are, just not as good at it as unions... It's such a damn shame.  Once the gov steps in, a decent idea in theory, goes to shit.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:47 | 3053003 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

just be sure to wear the red armband when it starts, okay?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:21 | 3053159 astoriajoe
astoriajoe's picture

Perhaps the unions will go to China and work their magic there.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:38 | 3052945 Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

The boys at the top can do the labor if they want to keep all the money. The workers should go home and relax.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:43 | 3052974 fuu
fuu's picture

Maybe play some golf and expense the cost.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:15 | 3053126 toady
toady's picture

Put it all on the corporate AMEX, at least until they cancel the card.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:47 | 3052995 redpill
redpill's picture

Right, that should slow down outsourcing.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:55 | 3053039 Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

Another way we could stop the outsourcing is to simply go back to slavery. So ask yourself how many rights and benefits you are willing to erase and for which people? I mean, people died during the Haymarket Affair in Chicago just so the American worker could have an 8 hour workday. Should we just go back to 12 hour days for 10 cents a day? That would bring back all the jobs from China!

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:15 | 3053124 redpill
redpill's picture

I would think petty false dichotomies would be below someone who would take the time and effort to read and post on ZH.


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:17 | 3053140 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Well, obviously, you think wrong. ;)

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:52 | 3053299 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

*/sarc tag.

you forgot?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:49 | 3053473 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Redpill, you've forgotten your history, or were never taught it.  Less than 100 years ago, right up until the Gread Depression, children were working in the mines and mills and factories and sweatshops for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for next to nothing right along side their parents.  It was common practice to hire an entire family.  Children who were too small to work were mostly left at home and fended for themselves as best they could.  All the generations of a family of the working class worked and still they could barely keep a roof over their heads or food on their tables.  If someone hurt themselves at work it was their own lookout and their own loss.  If someone was killed in an accident they might drop the body off at the door.  My grandfather stood in the picket lines during the Minneapolis Teamsters' strike of '34.  My grandmother, with an infant on her hip, was among the women who cooked hot meals for those men and carried them to the picket lines. Our children and grandchildren will be fighting those battles again, God help them, because what was given wasn't given willingly, but only grudgingly and at great cost.  If your people came over from Europe in steerage around the turn of the 20th Century, chances are you have only achieved whatever your standing is because they banded together to wrest some sort of decent living from the man back then. 

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:02 | 3053510 redpill
redpill's picture


So we can't have child labor laws without federally sponsored labor unions?  Lovely non sequitur.


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 20:02 | 3053727 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

I notice you didn't address any of my other points, such as hours or pay or compensation for injury.  

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:27 | 3053178 toady
toady's picture

Most people have no idea what people went through before unions tamed the industrial age. Your one example is beyond their knowledge, let alone the centuries of abuse and deaths.

They just mindlessly accept longer hours and less benefits because 'at least I'm still working'

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:31 | 3053203 redpill
redpill's picture

If you continue to work when you think you are being overworked or under compensated, that's your own fault.  Demand more or quit.

People who have never quit a job and hung around waiting for things to come to them until they get laid off or until some union "saves" them are only robbing themselves.


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 17:42 | 3053263 kingslayer
kingslayer's picture

What an absolutely ridiculous statement. You probably don't have a family, or are a trust fund baby.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:13 | 3053314 redpill
redpill's picture

2 kids, no trust fund, sorry.  If anything having kids increases your PERSONAL responsibility to make sure you are being paid fairly for your labor.  Why in the world would you want to take something as valuable as the price of your own labor and hand it over to some overpaid union boss who doesn't give a shit about you or your family?  NOBODY will ever care more about your own labor or your own family more than you.  So abdicating that responsibility to someone that by definition cares less than you do is robbing yourself and your family.

It's really not that difficult a concept.  If you think you are getting the shaft, find someone that will pay you better.  If there is no such opportunity, perhaps your skills are not worth what you think they are.  Then you have the choice of doing something else that pays more, starting your own business if you have the resources, etc.  That's big boy world.  Sitting around and whining about not getting paid enough but not doing anything about it is about as juvenile as you can get.

Running to daddy government and asking them to point a gun at your employer and make them pay you more is simply thuggery.  Running to a union and asking them to take over your personal responsibility of negotating the value of your labor in hopes they can come up with clever ways of  blackmailing your employer to pay you more than the free market will is not only ultimately self-defeating but dishonest.  And the combination of the two wherein your blackmail is protected by federal law is the worst of both worlds.  That is way beyond collective bargaining, it is economic buccaneering.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:42 | 3053456 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Depends on what "job".

Minimum wage, McJobs are not what I think you are talking about. 

You can only quit and find a better job if you have skills, which many McJobs not only don't need, but don't want their workers to have skills.

I agree that if you don't like it, quit - but if your only skill is being unskilled, then you're just trading one shit job for another. 

Not that spending thousands on a college degree gurantees anything unless you pick a field that is actually hiring and not offshorable. 


Tue, 12/11/2012 - 18:52 | 3053477 redpill
redpill's picture

If people expect to be able to be well paid in an advanced economy while having no skills, then they are either extremely naive or mentally disabled.  Learn to be a plumber.  Learn to be a bartender.  Look for what is hiring in your area and learn to do that.  If you managed to get to the point where you need to support yourself and/or your family and you have no marketable job skills, then it's time to stop doing things your way (because that obviously hasn't worked) and start learning the skills to do the things that people are hiring for.  People are so complacent and so unwilling to learn something new or go in a different direction.  Life doesn't come to you, you have to go out and grab it by the scruff of the neck.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:41 | 3053656 Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

The best part of the economic collapse will be seeing you in the unemployment line next to all the "naive" people.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 20:02 | 3053726 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You do realize that is very unlikely with the amount ofknowledge and intelligence he displayed here.


With the civility he treated your commentary you felt justified to wish him bad tidings though. Who is really the aggressor here? Who is the anti-social actor in this conversation? Surprise, it's you.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 13:31 | 3059971 Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

Um, yeah I'm antisocial. Because this society is insane.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 20:20 | 3053781 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

or his kids burning up in a garment factory that some f'ing company so graciously brought back from bangalore after the last bastions of worker protections in this country have been eradicated.  But it will be the f'ing kids fault because they just didn't grab prosperity by the scruff of the neck and run off into the lsd colored sunset.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 19:23 | 3053579 toady
toady's picture

I was in a slightly different scenario. The company was downsizing, but I didn't play along.

As people were layed off everyone else had to work more hours. I wouldn't do it.

The froze wages and even asked some people to take pay cuts. I wouldn't do it.

They still have two guys doing 60-70 hour weeks doing my job. I do lunch with them once a month just to keep up with the gossip.

It would be very easy to accept your premise, but the world is not as simple as saying 'screw you' and walking out.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 20:03 | 3053731 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Actually, it is. You're just scared of standing up for yourself.

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 22:33 | 3054402 Matt
Matt's picture

So, were you fired or did you quit?

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:40 | 3052949 Renewable Life
Renewable Life's picture

Goodbye Detroit Auto Worker..... Hello Michigan Militia!!!!

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:48 | 3052993 Renewable Life
Renewable Life's picture

It will be quit a dilemma for Obama, when ex-union workers start killing fat cat billionaires and their stooge politicians!! Will that be a justified workers revolution or a terrorist act???? Now things have started to get complicated!!!! It's a whole new ball game Obama, when it's northern industrial union workers instead of unorganized southern labor, isn't it????

Tue, 12/11/2012 - 16:58 | 3053052 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Renewable Life

The snake, lacking any further prey, must eventually eat it's own tail.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!