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Get It While You Can

Tyler Durden's picture


Via Mark J. Grant, author of Out of the Box,

“Get It While You Can”
                        -Janis Joplin
As we head towards December 31 and chaos I am reminded of the late Janis Joplin and her rather famous song. Investors are being hit from all sides now. We face the fiscal cliff and the quite real possibility that we will go over it, the debt ceiling and then we are assuaged by various tax and spending schemes, such as the possibility that Municipal Bonds will be Federally taxed and then we are likely to find that the Fed increases their buying program which will take their balance sheet up to about $4 trillion, right in-line with the ECB, as they buy $90 billion a month in Treasury and MBS securities. The stock market chugs along with their “What me worry” attitude first brought to us by Mad Magazine and we find ourselves in a world gone astray that is curtailed by ever increasing amounts of capital and the inability to invest off-world so that the available choices limit what can be obtained. As we head into 2013 the demand from the Fed, the expanded capital base and maturities and the payment of coupons and dividends will vastly exceed the available supply of bonds by somewhere around $1 trillion if the Fed acts as expected today. Treasury yields may go up on this day or that day but you can expect lower yields as the trend. Where all of this is having a dramatic impact is in risk securities or bonds with a credit consideration as part of the equation. There is massive compression taking place now and it has been going on since the Spring and I see no let-up in sight. The equation is buy long, buy at a discount if possible, sit, wait and Win. You will get the coupon and you will get appreciation and thank you very much Mr. Bernanke. Now there will come a time, an important moment, when you will have to turn on a dime with this play but it is not now, it is not yet and so we take the small advantages that we are given.
The Greek buyback went about as expected as Greece fell short, demanded the rest of the bonds from the Greek banks and came close to their goal. The deal will go through and then Greece will guarantee more of their bank bonds which will be pledged at the ECB and so the hoax continues but what else is new these days. It is not that Peter robs Paul; it is that Paul is a willing participant as long as the bread and honey keep flowing. For the time being the Germans, the French, the Dutch have no political issues with handing their citizen’s money over to Greece so the game will go on. It is not a forever game in my opinion but it is the game for now as Europe could not economically withstand a Greek default. It is a dangerous game, a tricky game but until there is a change in the political winds; it will continue.
Dangers Loom
Just because we are now in a world drowning in apathy do not think that this will go on forever. The problems have become magnified by the slush of capital thrown about by the world’s central banks so that when the bough breaks; it will be a systemic break. It will flash right across the world and we will have another “Oh My God” moment which, as I peer into the future, may come in the next year. Europe is now being dominated by the “have-nots” and the lone voice of the Bundesbank will be challenged as never before during the next twelve months. “More money” is the only thing keep the world’s economies afloat and the demand for “more money, more money” will be the hue and cry both in America and Europe. In the United States the re-distribution of wealth will be pressed by Mr. Obama and his minions as the socialization of America continues but we may find a backlash in the next elections with not an evangelized Tea Party but some new group demanding core fiscal and traditional American values where hard work and success are not derided and where “Rich” is no longer a dirty word. If the present course continues then not only will the rich be poorer but the poor will be poorer as those with money will no longer be able to afford the gimmickry of the country. The coordinated actions of the world’s central banks has caused our current dilemma and the same fiscal irresponsibility may one day end it. Yet it will not be today and it will not be tomorrow so the game goes on, the shirts get dirtier, the slop of newly minted capital keeps increasing and there is still nowhere to invest off-world and so we are constrained by the lack of choice. In the end probable revolt but for now; the rollercoaster plunge continues. Enjoy the ride.
“Well boys, we've got three engines out, we've got more holes in us than a horse trader's mule, the radio is gone and we're leaking fuel and if we was flying any lower why we'd need sleigh bells on this thing.”
              -Dr. Strangelove


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Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:33 | 3057564 flacon
flacon's picture

I got it dude. It's yellow and shiny and heavy. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:42 | 3057599 Michaelwiseguy
Michaelwiseguy's picture

There's not as much apathy in the country as people perceive. You perceive there is too much apathy because you don't see opposition to apathy on TV. The internet bloggers such as people on ZH are teaching massive numbers of people, informing them what is really going on in our country, and the message of Liberty is being spread far and wide. All my neighbors have guns now.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:46 | 3057613 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

No disrespect to the author and the Tyler who decided to post this, but only one thought comes to mind...

No Sh!t, Sherlock.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:01 | 3057635 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Ammo and gold sales certainly don't spell apathy. They spell recognition by the smarter than average man that nothing can stop what government addiction to baseless fiat has set in motion.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:05 | 3057666 Uncle Sugar
Uncle Sugar's picture

I'm guessing the ammo and gold sales are going to a relatively small percentage of the population.  The majority are too focused on DWTS and LILO to be bothered looking outside the matrix.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:35 | 3057736 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I believe the statistics show a mere three percent of the population is actively engaged in what they term "prepping". I suppose there is also a block of NRA types that make purchases based on fear of a gun grab. I shudder to think what this country would look like if even 20% of the population decided they need guns, gold, and grub immediately.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:52 | 3057780 Bad Attitude
Bad Attitude's picture

“Get It While You Can”

More people are waking up and starting to buy guns, precious metals, and emergency food - I see it with friends and coworkers. But, the numbers are still relatively small.I don't know what the trigger event will be. I thought the reelection of Dear Leader would trigger more interst in "prepping," but I haven't seen it yet.

Beans, bullets, and bandages, bitchez!

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:02 | 3057805 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Costco sells emergency freeze-dried foods. Costco doesn't stock anything that doesn't sell FAST.

Ammo is very frequently sold out at Walmart, and limitations on the quantity you can purchase have been seen.

NICS did more background checks for gun sales this past Black Friday than ever before.

Collapse or Balkanization or something else, but something is coming this way fast.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:15 | 3057843 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I hope it's something soft, fuzzy, pink, and fluffy..............

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:34 | 3057886 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Enjoy your new Owens-Corning fiberglass Snuggie!

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:05 | 3057964 trav777
trav777's picture

given the .fed's disconnect from the several states, some sort of constitutional crisis is inevitable.  Already, states are refusing to accept federal laws and federal policy.  Eventually, Texas will refuse to prosecute or Arizona will physically deport on their own or weed in CO, maybe it turns into a local arrest of a federal agent or something like this.  That's when things should get interesting.

the SCOTUS may have to sanction massive curtailment of federal power under the 10th or something like that just to avoid things' getting worse.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 09:21 | 3058833 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

@Supernova Ben

"...something is coming this way fast..."

Is it pussy? 'Cause I love that stuff.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:12 | 3057834 forwardho
forwardho's picture

I shudder to think what this country would look like if even 20% of the population decided they need guns, gold, and grub immediately. 

what it would look like? who knows.

It may look like people who wish to live in FREEDOM.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:35 | 3058037 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Goes without saying. My point is it would be a fucking free for all cluster-fuck of magnificent proportions.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 23:57 | 3058334 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Yea, they got FEMA camps for the survivor's kids too.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:01 | 3057661 ball-and-chain
ball-and-chain's picture

I wish I had big white teeth.

If I did, I would use them to bite the nipples off Ben Bernanke's ever-flowing man-tits.

But I'm just a loser.

Too bad.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 22:41 | 3058196 Bernankenstein
Bernankenstein's picture

Who cares about apathy?

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 22:45 | 3058204 akak
akak's picture

Probably the same 4 out of 3 who are bad in math.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 00:24 | 3058403 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

i might be one of those. oh, wait..

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:35 | 3057577 becky quick and...
becky quick and her beautiful mouth's picture

me too. only it's freeze dried, mylar sealed, and then put in plastic buckets.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:36 | 3057578 Vashta Nerada
Vashta Nerada's picture

It is time for a good old fashioned tax revolt.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:48 | 3057620 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

People are too frightened for a tax revolt. They are too frightened for anything. Some of that fear is manufactured propaganda, but some other of it is genuine; we really are in deep shit this time.

I don't see any organized action being possible for a long time in America because Americans no longer enjoy a public dialog about what matters to Americans. Any dialog permitted in the coportate media is limited to what is good for jobs, what is good for profits, what is good for the economy, etc. So long as we are limited to discussions of abstract things only we will never discover how badly tooled we have been as humans.

The early OWS movement, and it's ally the Tea Party movement at the start, were both little more than symptoms of America's lack of dialog. Anyone here who doesn't understand that needs to take a very deliberate step away from the kool-aid and have a real look at the landscape. Because folks, Americans have become mutes. Dumb mutes. Mutes who cannot hear, cannot speak, and cannot understand. Americans live in a fog of disconnect from reality, cannot find a way back to reality, and do not know they are not in touch with reality. Any movement that screams "you are not living in the real world" is a good thing for Americans to experience.

That Americans are not allowed, is all you need to know.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:55 | 3057632 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It's not that they are frightened. It's just they are tired of the pointless violence and honestly do not want to initiate it.  Most people ascribe to non-aggression naturally. This is why the concept makes more sense than to be a violent anxiety driven statist.


If more people understood this simple fact, things would be more clear to a larger number of the public. The idea and concept would spread further and faster than it already is. The problem is that the learning curve that it takes for people to understand Liberty is rather steep. Some people pick it up quick and naturally because they understand that most people are generally non-violent. Others on the other hand take a while as they have been anxiety driven into being statists for so long that they do not understand what non-aggression is about.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:20 | 3057694 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Taxes are nothing but a show and tell by .gov

Show the populace whose boss and tell the world our currency is based on something (which it isn't).

The could just print ALL of what they spend and allow the unavoidable "tax" of inflation to "collect" from the populace.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:37 | 3057746 Roosting Chicken
Roosting Chicken's picture

Right.  Didn't bernankie just promise to pay the deficit for the next year?  So, no need to raise taxes, problem solved.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:45 | 3057763 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Non Sequitur.


The taxes that the government tells you that you are responsible for, merely pay the interest on the debt that they run up. They have no interest in paying that debt. The whole thing is a sham.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 00:25 | 3058406 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

How 'bout those Bears?

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:42 | 3057754 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

If you look at the system properly it was designed to eventually have everyone working for the government and receiving everything from the Government. It's Socialism through incrementalism. Taxes are just another method of acclimating people to supporting others.


The system will never work, it's physically impossible, because if it could work it would have evolved naturally. Capitalism as understood by the Austrian School is natural, as there were no grand theories developed to create it. It was merely Economists doing what they are supposed to be doing, analyzing the situation and describing it to everyone else.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:55 | 3057783 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

I think I understand your point, but I'm not sure I see how it applies. Liberty in America is long dead, and died over a hundred years ago. What people will learn about liberty today is largely divorced from anything the "founding fathers" would have recognized in their time and is unlikely to nourish the roots of freedom and useful action. I don't see too many alternative narratives on the topic, either. Further I'm not sure how non-violence makes one automatically a non-State actor, anymore than laying in bed curled into a fetal position does. In many ways, that is what the State players want and are working very hard to establish.

Fear is the mind killer. Non-violence can be as much a product of fear as it can be of a deliberate decision not to play the game. Fear makes us think twice -- even, many times -- about everything we might try to do to improve our lot. This generates non-action, a larger set of outcomes that includes non-violence and non-participation as a subset.

It is easy for the State to deliver on the promise of fear. Humans are afterall fearful creatures by nature. One 15 second segment on TV showing an Occupy protest being broken up with tear gas will send almost everyone in the room scuttling like terrified mice back into the comfortable little prison cell they have created in their own mind.

It is an ugly game. They play it because it works so well. We are to be kept captive to inaction until the dogs of war are at our throats, but then I don't know what we will be able to do.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:07 | 3057816 forwardho
forwardho's picture

Fear, when action is needed  keeps one suspended in a useless negative feedback loop.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:48 | 3057915 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

True, and the longer inaction continues, the more fearful we become because there is no obvious way out. In fact the propaganda arm of the State machine is largely tasked to promote the doubt that further feeds inaction, as if inaction were some kind of parasite of the mind.

Which actually it is.

That is why it is always important to just do something, however trivial it might seem.

I become impatient with those who claim that "what you propose is a waste of time" because that attitude actual serves the aim of Statist propaganda, where the promotion of inaction at all levels (starting with our personal lives) is 100% of their business. They have built a vast social support framework at least in part to keep anyone from becoming uncomfortable enough to give a fuck about how things are being done. To put it in the simplest terms.

People are probably too comfortable. That might be about to change. We'll see if I'm right.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:12 | 3057837 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I think the main problem is that you assume that the founding fathers represented Liberty. They did not.

I do not want to be the one to do that to your mind, as many things you have been taught in the past were complete nonsense. I know what sort of mindstate I was in when I first started to understand this situation as it really is. I was an mental rollercoaster.I stopped reading the first book I picked up because I didn't want to believe or accept it.

Many people have been taught that Liberty is something that it is not these days. I can say honestly that you appear to be on the right path, and I would suggest finding some of Rothbard's work as a further guide.


I have taught a lot of people on my own path, and I know what you are about to go through if you read further into this. Even more so if you actually get free time to think about what you read and what it means. 


Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:25 | 3057861 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Heh. Well that's an interesting approach.

I'll give you this and then leave it alone: You are probably 30 years too soon to being the one to help me find my path.

But I do appreciate the sentimate.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:49 | 3057920 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

That may be true.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:38 | 3057876 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Liberty in America is long dead, and died over a hundred years ago. What people will learn about liberty today is largely divorced from anything the "founding fathers" would have recognized in their time and is unlikely to nourish the roots of freedom and useful action


While I agree in premise with you, there are many here that are hated Boomers, who KNOW what Liberty means we were raised under a Constitutional system, we were obliged to say the Pledge, and swear the oath every morning before school stated en masse.

The real Liberty you speak of may be dead, but Liberty is mainly in the MIND.

NO ONE who has known a life of live and let live, and was raised under WWII spec parents ,are ever going to let it go, and say oh, well.Taught REAL history, and the PC shit that has indoctrinated our kids and the other sheep,of the past 2 Gens can understand the concept.

Not until death, one way or the other.WE have not lost our moral compass and values and mores no matter how corrupt the system has become.

I will not sell a lot of them short, if they were raised like my kids, as to what WE were as far as Who we were, and what it cost us to have and be what we are, and where.

BUT, they are even more spoiled in having it their way(far more than we were),and when push comes to shove they will(I feel) come to the fore.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:12 | 3057977 trav777
trav777's picture

The founding fathers were white men.  And they owned slaves.

On EITHER basis, they are illegitimate.

Any company that lacks sufficient blacks is illegitimate.  Any endeavor without sufficient "diversity" is in crisis and illegitimate (NASA is).  These things must be cut.  Science classes in schools in Berzerkely were deemed too white.  Cystic Fibrosis was too nondiverse a disease to merit continued support.  so these things are illegitimate and must be eliminated.

This is the world you people have let occur because you have a mental 3rd rail on the subject.

I have no idea why you people keep appealing to the FOUNDERS as if somehow the rest of the nation is going to nod and GET IT.  They REJECT the founders, ok?  The founders are illegitimate and must be scrubbed from history.

The Constitution was written by them and it's just a piece of paper that frequently gets in the way of the fundamental transformation of society by people who WILL NOT STOP.  You just don't get what you're up against here.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 22:09 | 3058123 tickhound
tickhound's picture


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 09:19 | 3058828 ExhiledInMass
ExhiledInMass's picture

33% of the people were OK w/ a king, 33% didn't care one way or the other. The Founders represented 33% of the peoples' will/intent/desires.

Trav is can explain it, the masses could understand it, but like the original 66% who weren't fully in the Founders' camp, they will either ignore it or hate it and move with the current majority. We just got lucky as shit w/ the battle of Trenton and won.

We who are w/ the Founders are in a significant minority right now. The ride is over for awhile.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:05 | 3057815 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

I dunno. I think people are frightened. Most still have too much to lose to just roll the dice and stop paying taxes, at least I still do. Even though it's all a mirage and there's probably a 90% chance they wouldn't even catch it. That 10% chance of having wages garnished and accounts frozen looms large.

 We are bombarded with "better stay in line" propaganda 24/7. The threat the IRS is going to get ya, or the police or DHS. The constant barrage of "big brother's watching you" - even though the people that are awake know deep down, they can't watch everyone, they're just not that fucking good. Hollywood bombards us with T.V. shows where police "always get their man." Total B.S.

 The biggest thing is we are just not united enough. I watched the OWS and truthfully, I could only relate to maybe 10% of those people - the Ron Paul, Tea party types. The rest seemed to be begging for a nanny state.

I'd love to join a group of like minded individuals in my area and take some action. There's alot of people on the net like here at ZH, but how many actually connect personally? We're spread out all over the country.

I started a blog - - ultimately I'd like to see veterans connect personally with other vets in their area to protect eachothers family, property and liberty. It seems this has to start at the community level. I dunno.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:31 | 3057878 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

We voluntarily offer ourselves up to the slaughter by giving them the information they need in order to terrorize us with threats of violence for noncompliance.............

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:25 | 3058008 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Sometimes, it seems like the easier path. We all do it. Fill out the form, to get the candy. Or to avoid the expensive fine, or the court fees, or jail cell. All the same thing, eventually.

They have probably won that battle already. It makes it hard to go forward, but not impossible.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:21 | 3058007 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

I'd love to join a group of like minded individuals in my area and take some action.

The people are actually all about.  Uniting them is probably not as difficult as one would think.  I have put a lot of time into thinking about this particular problem for a very very long time now.  The problem is once a person becomes a bit of a celebrity, they are also a lighting rod for all kinds of sociopaths and do-gooders.  The only way to get through the storm is to be very well off financially before one stirs up all the muck. 


Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:55 | 3057646 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

Now imagine some could step forward. A visionary. Someone who could give the apathetic hope, and inspire them to greatness.

I always wondered how Hitler came to power. Now I understand.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:00 | 3057660 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I guess the plebian masses have to relearn the lessons their parents learned.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:41 | 3057753 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Sadly, that is exactly how it happens.

On the other paw, Genghis Khan is one of my favorite personalities. So perhaps there is an actual light at the end of this sad tunnel rather than an on-rushing locomotive.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:44 | 3057758 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

The only way I'm going to be inspired to greatness is if it's on somebody else's dime and time, bitchez.               -Joe Sixpack-

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:09 | 3057823 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

Yeah, and Hitler was a spawn of the Socialist Worker's movement, although you'd never hear that from the left in this country. They'd have you believe he was a right-wing fanatic.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:13 | 3057838 DosZap
DosZap's picture

They'd have you believe he was a right-wing fanatic.

Dead on, he was a Lefist to the core.They used a different name for what we do today.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:38 | 3057852 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Hilter was not a Socialist, and one of his first acts was to murder as many Socialist thinkers and leaders as he could.

Hitler understood the power of words, and in naming his movement the "National Socialists" he tapped into two very powerful themes working in the German zeitgiest at the time; German national pride, and socialist doctrines of fairness (both of which had been in short supply after WWI). This is why his party is now most commonly refered to as "the Nazis" because we would not carry forward his rather clever use of language.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:39 | 3057894 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

"The connection between socialism and nationalism in Germany was close from the beginning. It is significant that the most important ancestors of National Socialism—Fichte, Rodbertus, and Lassalle—are at the same time acknowledged fathers of socialism. …. From 1914 onward there arose from the ranks of Marxist socialism one teacher after another who led, not the conservatives and reactionaries, but the hard-working laborer and idealist youth into the National Socialist fold. It was only thereafter that the tide of nationalist socialism attained major importance and rapidly grew into the Hitlerian doctrine." - F.A. Hayek

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:43 | 3057904 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

"I am a Socialist, and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend, Count Reventlow. . . . What you understand by Socialism is nothing more than Marxism." - Adolph Hitler

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:46 | 3057911 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

"There are two patterns for the realization of socialism. The first pattern (we may call it the Lenin or Russian pattern) . . . . the second pattern (we may call it the Hindenburg or German Pattern) nominally and seemingly preserves private ownership of the means of production and keeps the appearance of ordinary markets, prices, wages, and interest rates. There are, however, no longer entrepreneurs, but only shop managers … bound to obey unconditionally the orders issued by government." - Von Mises

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:18 | 3057996 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"To be a socialist means to let the ego serve the neighbour, to sacrifice the self for the whole. In its deepest sense socialism equals service. The individual refrains and the commonwealth demands." - Joseph Goebbels

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:44 | 3057761 CH1
CH1's picture

I don't see any organized action being possible for a long time

Love your posts, cougar, but organized action is the old way.

Ten million people who simply stop obeying is the new way.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:11 | 3057832 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Thank you, I try.

Organized action: We may be talking about the same thing. I am a student of network effects and emergent system properties, and understand these mechanisms better than most. I could certainly see a spontaneous emergent revolt at some point, but not 10 millions. Honestly, I doubt there are that many people who understand even that they are in grave danger at this point. Okay, in 10 years that might change. If things really do get very very bad. Meaning, uncollected dead left in the streets. Then maybe 10 million will get it.

But think on this; the Statists are ahead of us. They are rapidly building out a control and intimidation infrastructure that could easily handle several millions at some point. This is assuming they do not in the interim create a tolerance in society such that it is okay to kill people out-of-hand on pretext of protecting The Sacred American Way of Life (TM). I don't see this being a distopian unlikelyhood at all, and can easily imagine this taking hold in some parts of the nation very easily.

With that as a backdrop, we can probably agree that time is not on the side of an organized uprising. Nor for that matter is technology (even though distributed technology might be the organizing matrix for an unorganized uprising in America just as it was in parts of the Arab world, network security is my current field and I am not confident in a repeat). The window to move many all at once -- via traditional centralized organizational apparatus or via novel self-organizing systems -- is in my estimate rapidly closing.

The far future may be a different picture. But it is a picture that will be painted by those who come after us for I suspect none of us now will live long enough to conceive that work.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:17 | 3057993 trav777
trav777's picture people are 20 years behind the curve.

They have already convinced most of you to accept savagery in lieu of your own culture.

Look around you...affirmative action, gay marriage...where the fuck do you think you are, folks?  This is what DEFEAT of all these highminded old ideals looks like.

But you're too scared to be a "bigot" and be ostracized.  You say you study emergent complexity and systems, this should be OBVIOUS to you.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:00 | 3057797 forwardho
forwardho's picture

Cougar, Not sure if Americans cannot find their way back to reality. It seems there is a collective denial of reality. If one is honest, and sees "what is" we find ourselves staring into the abyss, and what stares back at the clear eyed viewer is truly horrific. The koolaid of lies is so much easier to believe, for the "reality" of the truth is abject destruction of our cushy safe world.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:30 | 3057874 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Then imagine it is not so much a question of can or cannot. But of when.

Many here will agree to the same fear, that the window of dignified action of any kind is closing rapidly. We might have months, we might have a few years, but we do not have as long as we might like and we do not have forever.

What happens then, it is harder to say. But it might come to pass that after a long enough time, all the patriots you could muster might not be enough to dent the armor of the modern techno-dictatorial State.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:37 | 3057585 HANKREARDON

Is it actually a fact that you can't eat gold? Anyone?

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:42 | 3057598 flacon
flacon's picture

You can eat what ever you want but the Swiss drink gold:

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:06 | 3057667 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Better yet, you can eat whatever you want to buy with it.  Fiat won't buy you shiiiit.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:45 | 3057768 CH1
CH1's picture

Is it actually a fact that you can't eat gold? Anyone?

I've defnintely sucked down some in Goldschlagger!

No problems... aside from too much Goldschlagger. :)

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:50 | 3057777 lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

Is it actually a fact that you can't eat gold? Anyone?   i ate gold.   i was at the top of the Burj al Arab in Dubai last year with my daughter & she ordered one of their famous cappucinos with gold flakes on top of the foam.    the waiter said they were good for you & since i luv gold, i drank them.    YES, YOU CAN EAT GOLD & I DID IT !!   (vote me up, please?) 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:40 | 3057589 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Get it while you can, Banksta mafia, this lady now will be gunning for you!

Elizabeth Warren Gets Senate Banking Committee Nod

best news in DC town. 

If she shoots the wheels off shadow banking when the economy goes over the fiscal cliff; that will be some cliff hanger moment. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:43 | 3057602 flacon
flacon's picture

Is Elizabeth Warren a good guy or a bad guy? All I know is that she's a politician and I know only one good politician (Ron Paul) and he's about to retire. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:46 | 3057612 falak pema
falak pema's picture

well anybody gunning at the banks; if you have been at ZH for some time...needs no explanantion. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:49 | 3057624 flacon
flacon's picture

Alan Grayson was against the banks but was a flaming statist....

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:02 | 3057649 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Gunning at the Banks doesn't mean anything. It just means she is either trying to get paid by them, or she is auditioning to be the next fraudster like Bachmann was.


It takes more than a few comments to be an honest individual. It also takes quite a bit of honesty to not be a statist waiting to get paid off. It's a game for these people and some of them know how to get paid a little better than others. People like Maxine Waters are complete shills and go for real cheap. This lady you spoke about likely want's more money.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:10 | 3057664 falak pema
falak pema's picture

well someone has to be honest in the US or that country has no future.

And don't tell me its Von Mises's ghost! I don't believe in Ayn Randish and gold brandishing holy grailers. 

Besides, if the cake comes apart we will need those who aren't part of the PREVIOUS scam when the rats climb out of the wood work; and of that she wasn't, that is VERY CLEAR. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:17 | 3057687 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

See that ignorance you just displayed is part of the problem. You simply do not understand a thing you are trying to communicate well enough to properly be honest or access the situation.


This is not me attacking you , this is me being honest and pointing at the deficiencies in your understanding. Lest you accidentally confuse this reply. Text formats are hard enough to conveigh ideas properly. 


You can not compare Mises to anything without having actually read it. I have read almost every relevant Progressive, Socialist, and Communist writer. I understand the ideas to a reasonable extent. It's time for you to make the leap and start reading across the isle too. To note, I conside the Neo-Cons as Progressives, in case that point was missed somewhere in my commentary.


Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:47 | 3057739 falak pema
falak pema's picture

I've replied to you before I'll reprint it here again. I don't buy your  theory, here's why : 3053864

 on libertarian theory and no political roots to it in reality. 

debate aint about spouting libertarian dogma, like it was Godlike and evident truism bestowed on man by new Moses of Mises.

Just to give you an historical example of a truly sincere, intelligent but dogmatic man who got caught in his own spider's web of dogmatic thought : Thomas of Aquinas.

He decreed in the debate between Enquiry and Dogma that enraged the middle ages : that for those who believed in God no proof of his existence was required and for those who did not no proof was acceptable. Thus debate over.

The whole thread of humanity subsequently proved that thesis wrong. Dogma gave way to the process of rational enquiry based on empirical fact as the vital thread of human progress.

So CB when you say others "troll" 'cos they don't agree with your version of new libertarian dogma, you just repeat Saint Thomas of Aquinas. 

I prefer to adhere to the whole process of agnostic enquiry; where empiricism and fact and logic define what works and what doesn't work in society. 


So if that is the verdict of history, no witch doctor like Mises is going to solve humanity's problems. It'll take "belling the cat" in the name of people and democracy, AND THAT, is not on the libertarian page of values.

You guys ONLY knee jerk in terms of "ME FIRST". And that creates no social cohesion, just dissension. 



So that is the final destination of the libertarians : Caesar's rule.

No libertarian has ever here on ZH presented a political program that is viable as a social model and a grass roots based power construct. Its ALL theory and mumbo jumbo. Ron Paul worship. And look where that leads.

Second American revolution? It'll take more than words! 

Now you can call me troll! Brother fool. 

PS/HINT : you won't find the answer in economic BOOKS. Look and see the real history of the world of which economic theory is a very limited and imperfect image; at best. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:48 | 3057771 CH1
CH1's picture

Not worth the time.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:50 | 3057773 falak pema
falak pema's picture


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 06:04 | 3057785 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It doesn't matter what you buy. Reality is reality, I do not need platitudes to point out that your reply is nothing more than emotional sophistry. Mises didn't create a Theory, he merely described things how he saw them. Like I said, you have never read his work, so you can't be honest with your critique. If you can't be honest with yourself or the rest of us, how can you expect someone else to be honest? Isn't that what you would call a double-standard?

^^^^^See that right there, that is what Mises taught me. You should read his work, you would learn something.


"no social cohesion"-

See this the problem, you think that there is some sort of greater social fabric, but there isn't. It's just a bunch of individuals walking around commencing in exchanges on an individual basis. I've heard Socialists and Progressives call themselves pragmatic, and the irony of that never makes them understand that these social cohesion ideas are just that, IDEAS.  They never even catch the irony of it all.

All the ideas in the world will not save you when you can not afford to protect yourself from the starving masses.

Remember what I said about honesty, it's not just a singular event, honesty is total encompassing thing. It's how you live, how you speak, how you dress, and how you behave in every situation. It's not just telling the truth after raping and murdering an entire region. If you are going to be honest, you have to live honestly. You do not just one day decide to become a Saint and all is good, it's something you have to work at every single day. I will tell you it's not easy at first, but it get's easier the longer you do it. 


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 06:54 | 3058694 falak pema
falak pema's picture

It's just a bunch of individuals walking around commencing in exchanges on an individual basis....

It summarises your misconception of history and social construct. You really think that people can live in a "freedom from responsibility to others" vacuum. Its never worked. Its not human reality. 

There is a hidden hand behind the curtain and those people are manipulated in all societies. Fighting that collective manipulation is the eternal struggle in history. Don't make it a mundane thing. Social cohesion comes from collective vision of that manipulation in each age and in each social construct. 

Your libertarian meme, will inevitably make you chose the side of the manipulating oligarch, NEVER the side of the manipulated many. That's the verdict of history on those who piss in the wind singing "I'm free". You ain't, and you'll have to fight for it. And you'll need the others if you believe in collective freedom, or what's the best version of it in real world. 

It'll never be a bunch of individuals who run the world on an ad hoc basis like children in heaven. It'll ALWAYS be a power construct of people who have a hidden agenda. The light and the dark faces of public power, its always been social reality in history. Wake up. You are not living in an individual vacuum, and this impression is prevalent 'cos you live in a land that ostensibly says "you are free" but in fact manipulates you thru corporate pressure like nowhere else. Droneistan for others, soft peddling for US citizens, but pressure nevertheless. 

If the collective wealth of that land disappears you will become what the 1930s were in the USA. And you will pray for big government to step in. Thats the political cycle in current history<.

I didn't invent it. If you think we can invent another cycle, good for you, but it won't be based on Ron "WhO?", he is toast.

Find a new leader with a real program. It ain't the tea party either. Nothing there but hot air in the libertarian creed, all happy with USA, USA in reality...pull your nose out of the theory and look at reality in the face. 

PS  : not saying statism is the resolution; balance between state and civil society, open accountability and separation of powers without regulatory capture is nearer to it. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:06 | 3057788 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

He decreed in the debate between Enquiry and Dogma that enraged the middle ages : that for those who believed in God no proof of his existence was required and for those who did not no proof was acceptable.


Blatant lie. He offered up no less that five philosophical proofs (which stand unchallenged today) of God's existence.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:41 | 3058052 Umh
Umh's picture

He was so vague and abstract that rational people gave up on responding. Sort of like the meaning of is by Bill Clinton.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 22:01 | 3058101 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

That's the same reason the FED has total control of the global economy. There is nothing rational at all about a direct refusal to comprehend the intricacies of faith or finance............

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 05:56 | 3058668 falak pema
falak pema's picture

lol, now that takes the cake, PROOF of god's existence.

You truly belong in the LiBERTARIAN meme brigade.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:48 | 3057918 Pareto
Pareto's picture

You're a retard.  There is NOTHING anti-social about libertarianism because its economic construct requires that you be the exact opposite!  In order for me to become better off, I have to first help somebody else become better off, which if I read you correctly is in stark contrast to the welfare state which requires only that a majority of ass clowns such as yourself find it in the public interest to leach off of everybody else everywhere and always.  The former is predicated on accountability to one another through the market place, while the latter is predicated on coercion, outright theft and plunder of resources and a prevalent threat of force for those that do not comply with arbitrary ad hoc redistribution fantasies.  Humanity got screwed by the State, not by me jackass.  And finally, give one example where Ron Paul was/is SUBSTANTIVELY dead wrong, and I'll eat my hat.

The only thing I know is this.  Virtually every welfare state in the world is hemoraging because it can't even manage a two house paper route.  The collective machine is run by self interested individuals - should we have expected anything different?  Because, I also know that the state doesn't give a shit about my welfare and it never has.  It only cares about how much I provide it, and that's a fucking business model destined to fail.  Of course, you won't find that lesson in economics texts either.  There is a limit to which the state can continue fleecing everybody with impunity.  Sooner or later (preferably sooner) this design of perpetual confiscation of people's rights and property ends.  And I look forward to that day when the only thing that Marx got right was that eventually the state will just "whither away".  Libertarianism will be a consequence of and not a substitution for state capitalism - imperfect as libertariansim might be.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 22:41 | 3058191 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Not bad, I like where your head is. You could clean it up a bit as a single simple logic chain usually works better than the emotional content. That you are thinking is a good thing at the least though.


I may contend that Libertariansim may be imperfect, but then again so are humans. Perhaps the perfect system of anything is the one that doesn't aspire to be something human's are not, which is perfect. This is the way I think about it at least.


Rothbard was a damn genius. I honestly think people like him only come once every other generation. Let's hope we can find a new Rothbard out there sooner rather than later.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 05:59 | 3058671 falak pema
falak pema's picture

you are still counting the number of angels that can sit on a pin head...dream on Libertarian, like the orthodox clerics of Constantinople in 1453. 

Theory that never sees the light of day as its impractible and as evanescent as proof of God. 

If you want to see God just look at Caesar! Thats libertarianism in reality! 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 06:08 | 3058674 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

So you gave up replying to me and dodged me while I was on eh? That tell's me that you are a troll and you really have no argument.


If that is the case, I will make an effort to single you out from now on rather than ignoring your flacid arguments. I might be on vacation for a few weeks, so enjoy the peace while it lasts.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 06:22 | 3058680 falak pema
falak pema's picture

what reply do you want ? its all there for you to read. 

You have no basis in political history to bolster your case. Just look back at 200 years of US history and then tell me where you see your libertarian creed bearing fruit. I'll tell you where! 1929.

So go troll your country's real history, you inbred, dogmatic, navel gazing, head-up-your-know-what theoretician of freedom in irresponsibility clout and shout. Find yourself a real leg to stand on, not Von Mises's Talmud or Ron Paul's Gospel.

The real world is what it is and its libertarian greed all dressed up in purple robes of Caesar of DC; corporate USA.

That's the reality I see. Where's yours? In Shangrila? 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:06 | 3057817's picture



start reading across the isle too


Aisle. Just sayin'. Unless we're talking about catching up on Swift, Yeats and Joyce. Love your posts -- consistently clear and well reasoned.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:18 | 3057850 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Isle, because it's more like we are opposite sides of the Island. Haven't you read the Caruso metaphors?


Thanks for the compliments.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:19 | 3057697 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

This lady want's to be a cherokee chief in the NWO.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:43 | 3057900 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

If she was actually going to be gunning for the banks she wouldn't have been elected. She's from the land of Bahnee Fwank, they haven't put out a decent politician - ever.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:46 | 3057619 Aziz
Aziz's picture

I think she has good intentions but she's part of the Democratic machine.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:53 | 3057642 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

She's as good as a politician be "good". Unfortunately it may be analogous to being a Cy Young winner on the KC Royals.......its still not gonna win ya a World Series

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:39 | 3057749 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Is Elizabeth Warren a good guy or a bad guy? All I know is that she's a politician and I know only one good politician (Ron Paul) and he's about to retire.


Well she is another tard, claiming to be a Native American Cherokee blood, and had ancestors in the Trail of Tears, and has ZERO proof of any of it.So another fruitcake in that regard, I could claim to be 25% Cherokee and it would be truthful, she has had NO proof of a huge issue used against Scott Brown.

Minority Status, more like Minority Report.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:40 | 3057592 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

spook the herd already! lets get it on!

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:46 | 3057616 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The herd has been slaughtered like buffalo on the Great Plains.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:28 | 3057719 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Well Let's just leave their bloated carcasses for dead and get on with it then...............

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:38 | 3057741 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

I think the herd might be finally getting spooked. I was in Home Repo yesterday. As I walk up to the checkout there's an older woman behind the counter and she says, "Will you be putting your purchases on your Home Depot credit card today"?

I broke out into laughter and gave her a quick (but friendly) rant about what I thought about credit cards. She says, "I know, but I have to ask anyway". So I pay cash for my whopping $11 worth of hardware and then she says, "Cash is much more in fashion these days". I asked what she meant. She says, "I see a lot more people paying cash rather than using credit cards these days". And this in oil-soaked Alberta where every 18 year old oil worker drives a $70k 4x4.

I see a couple possible reasons for this:

1 - People are waking up about using credit cards and going into debt in general, or...

2 - They simply pissed away all their earnings and maxed out the cards/loans they already have and simply can't get anymore credit.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:04 | 3057808 Pareto
Pareto's picture

Door #2 Angus.  Nobody is waking up to fuck all.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:40 | 3057897 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Yeah, I just tossed in Door #1 cuz I was too fucking lazy to think of anything as unique as a Krugman alien attack.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:45 | 3057609 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The news from both sides of the sphere is making me drousy. 

We know the MSM has no fucking clue what is going on but all the charts and talk about debt and GDP and fiscal unsustainability is making me tired.  Economics is a sham and finance is a market of theft - what else needs to be said?

Everyone go home, grab a cold one or roll one, look into the eys of your loved ones, and remember what really matters.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:53 | 3057638 PlausibleDenial
PlausibleDenial's picture

Yes, a fair plan.  Cold brewski accompanied by a vape.... And, you are so right.  I cannot see the screen anymore due to graphs and charts and bs commentary.  However, it does come much more clear after my alteration.  Or, I just don't give a shit anymore.  Oh, and here is the funny part, people actually pay me to make money for them.  It will be hard, but  after 27 years I am quitting this game.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:46 | 3057614 jplotinus
jplotinus's picture

The article is useless drivel. I take it the main point is that health, education and welfare costs are to blame for the financial collapse.


Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:46 | 3057618 davinci7_gis
davinci7_gis's picture

You also need to think about lead and the firearms that can shoot it too - all these things are a good buy right now since they are only going to go up in value when the chickens come home to roost!

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:47 | 3057622 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

“Well boys, we've got three engines out, we've got more holes in us than a horse trader's mule, the radio is gone and we're leaking fuel and if we was flying any lower why we'd need sleigh bells on this thing.”
              -Dr. Strangelove

Actually that's Major Kong, in the film Dr. Strangelove.  Here's a sample Dr. Strangelove quote:

"Mein Fuhrer!  I can walk!"

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:33 | 3057730 SgtSchultz
SgtSchultz's picture

End of the world on a "single slip up"??  The lines could well be a transcript from Fed meeting:

This from Dr. Strangelove:

Turgidson: Uh, we're... still trying to figure out the meaning of that last phrase, sir.
Muffley: There's nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.
Turgidson: We-he-ell, uh, I'd like to hold off judgment on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.
Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you assured me there was no possibility of        such a thing ever occurring!
Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.
Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:52 | 3057627 Texas Ginslinger
Texas Ginslinger's picture

Anyone else worried about their 401k..??  IRA and 401k accounts have a combined 10 trillion dollars.

My fear; 

When a big crash occurs, these unhedged broad market positions get hammered the most. Don't worry though, your fund manager will still get a big fat bonus check, because his performance is irrelevant. 

This is when Congress will step in. Citing its desire to 'protect' the American people from future market shocks, the politicians will mandate that a portion of all managed retirement funds be invested in the 'safety and security' of US Treasury bonds. And, just to be on the safe side, let's park them in 30-year bonds that yield 4.35%.


Wed, 12/12/2012 - 18:57 | 3057637 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture


That article is off. Considering most people's retirement accounts already have a major portion allocated in some bond fund I'd say this plan has already been enacted. At 4.35% you actually cause a loss to existing bondholders at the expense of forcing new people in. It's a bad plan. A type of immediate annuity on the other hand.......

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:34 | 3057731 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

I don't have a 401k, but if I did I would cash out even if I took a hit.  It's going to disappear in the end.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:04 | 3057812 DosZap
DosZap's picture

In regards to IRA's, I strongly suggest taking ALL you can out this year, and regardless of what King Barahacccck says, HE is coming after the whole enchilda.( Min Clinton era for all)

If you take a for instance, you make under 200k, IF YOU think for one second that is not going to be changed(and made retro) when the calendar rolls over, got some swampland for ya in Phoenix.

Ex: A $50k IRA and after deducts your in a 15% bracket, this year, you get a hit of 15k in taxes.

Next year(we be in retro mode on the folks who make what,down to 50k), and you taxes then will be an additional MIN of 5k, ont that same 50k, for 2012.

Just make sure you do not get too much out it kicks you into the next barcket.

This is a GUARANTEE when we go over, Bama wants to go over..................he gets to finger the GOP w/ ALL the blame.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:37 | 3057740 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

The unedited version of Doctor Strangelove;“Well boys, we've got three engines out, we've got more holes in us than a horse trader's mule, the radio is gone and we're leaking fuel and if we was flying any lower why we'd need sleigh bells on this thing,"

"and the mice have nested in all the parachutes,  I've got a pending case of explosive diarrhea with flaring hemorrhoids, after eating six bowls of 5 alarm chili for breakfast, and our new president is a manchurian marxist with an IQ of 60 who is still looking for the launch codes.  What else could possibly go wrong?"


Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:42 | 3057751 Börjesson
Börjesson's picture

Bernanke pep talk:

"A day may come when the courage of central bankers fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of woes and shattered shields, when the age of ponzi comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we print!"

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:12 | 3057835 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture


Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:44 | 3057760 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture


Grant confuses debt with capital. A loan is not capital, crude oil is capital. Topsoil is capital, watersheds are capital, fisheries are capital, phosphates and potash are capital, iron ore and bauxite are capital ... crude oil is THE capital, the master resource, the Godhead from which all phony US-style 'prosperity' flows.


That capital-well is running dry ... it has been exhausted by 100 years of business 'success', too much of a good thing. What have we to show for this success? Anything that can pay the bills? Nothing!


What is flowing from the center are lies and more lies ... plus loans that nobody can pay, loans that few want.



Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:38 | 3057892 Hohum
Hohum's picture

Steve from Virginia is right.  While many of you will go to sleep tonight and have a wet dream about a society without taxes and consumption without end, your reality is where you going to get all of the capital you need to realize your dreams.  Answer, you're not.  So if you are a revolutionary, think of another way to live besides oil based agriculture.  I'm sure some of you have the skills.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:46 | 3057769 sbenard
sbenard's picture

Calamity is certainty! Plan and prepare accordingly!

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 19:57 | 3057786 Roosting Chicken
Roosting Chicken's picture

Mind if I ask a logistics question?  Good.

So I get that the system is going to crash, I heard all of your great pontifications on the bigger picture stuff.  However, I haven't heard anyone give any hypotheses on the mundane, everyday things that are going to be affected.

I have an $180000 mortgage.  I have direct deposit.  I have about $10000 in credit card debt.  All my bills, from utilities to cc's are taken out automatically out of my checking account.  I get no bills in the mail and don't even have to push a button.  So, if the currency crashes, then the system, what happens to that?  Does the function of pay stop?  Does the internet stop, which means my utility providers and creditors stop being paid and my paycheck can't even get to my account in the first place? If the government goes bankrupt (like their not already) does the post office go down?  How do I pay my bills?  How do people collect bills.  How do power companies provide power if they don't have a currency to pay workers?  Or any company that is relevant in my life for that matter?  How would anyone pay or collect debt is there is no power, no internet, no postal service, no gas stations up and running, etc?  I mean, would this be complete system failure?  OR do they just add a shit load of 00000000s to all that digital money and keep going?  Hoping I don't get laid off in the process, yeah right, how long does it take for companies to adjust to the new value of money and pay me the million dollars it will take to pay my monthly bills?  There are lots of logistical details that have yet to be worked out with this sort of speculation.

There must be a difference between currency crash and system failure.  How do we define system failure in the details of the logistics? 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:20 | 3057854 forwardho
forwardho's picture

Dude, You are logisticly screwed. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:22 | 3057856 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

2 years, 25 weeks at zh and still hard wired into the matrix.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:32 | 3057879 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Roosting: What the fuck do you do with all your spare time since the Matrix has been running your life? All you need now is a feeding tube and an automatic ass wiper and you're set.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:50 | 3057924 Roosting Chicken
Roosting Chicken's picture

Working, Angus, working.  So my kids can have food, clothing, water, and shelter.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:15 | 3057988 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Roosting: Okay, I hear ya bro. I was only poking some fun at ya.

Seriously, the main "logistics" of the entire world is the power grid. Just imagine many people (millions, billions??) worrying about paying mortgages, bills, etc for the first week or two without power... afraid that some bill collector will knock on their door during such a crisis. The sheeple these days will probably go thirsty and hungry until they finally figure out the power ain't coming back on for a while, and it will be too late for them, and they'll kick themsleves in the ass worrying about what the cops think if they do this or that and they get caught, only to realize the cops went home to their families when shit hit the fan.

There are too many other scenarios that could happen with the power grid still working, and those scenarios could be equally damaging. Just imagine yourself shipwrecked on an island with your family and no way to get off it, and no hope of rescue for 3 years. What would you do?

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:40 | 3057896 Roosting Chicken
Roosting Chicken's picture

Sure, but to be fair I've been gone for two years of that.  Seriously, I know I'm screwed, but at least I'm aware now.  I can't go off grid because I have  wife and kids in school and there is absolutely no way i could convince them to sell everything, move to the boonies and become self sufficient.  Most of my job time requires me to be alone int the woods though so I am very capable of survival and bugging out if that's what it comes down too.  Not to mention I know the state like the back of my hand, deep in the woods.  So, no one here has a mortgage?  Really?  That's amazing.  You rent I suppose.  Used to be that throwing money away.  Now that I'm aware that money means nothing, that really doesn't either.  It's hard to catch life up with reality.  So, besides pointing out things I'm already aware of, like how screwed I am, does anyone see how this goes down with the logistics.  Besides, if the credit/debt system fails, i'm not really screwed anyway am I, because that means nothing.  I can still stack and get ready to what needs to be done.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 23:11 | 3057999 tickhound
tickhound's picture

YOu know something Roosting... I like you.  I like your honesty.  There's no bullshit there.

You asked me a similar question a few days ago and I had a response that ended up being so fucking long I trashed it and figured someone else's opinion would be ponied-up.

I have a mortgage.  But I won't give a shit about it, push come to shove.  The money I have will never be used to pay it down, other than to satisfy the immediate terms of the loan.  The money I've saved and cash I've made from previous homes during the Greenspan Massage era is in the appropriate, very liquid, places.  I have a decent job that affords me alot of free time, and I carry a little debt.  It's all convenient.  That "credit" keeps one connected to the matrix, and that connection is necessary short of actually getting off the grid.  Ultimately though, I don't give a shit about that either.  Matter of fact, I'd love to have the foresight to run that credit line to MAX FULL BORE and oneday say the infamous, "Just like WellsFargo, I ain't payin' shit."  But for now, I play the game. 

No matter what you think, I believe most here play the game.  Few are actually "off the grid."  The trick is to be prepared to say fuck it, there are more important things than "WORRYING" about your place in a system that has fucked you, in one way or another.

I'm mentally "off the grid."  And absolutely nothing, and I MEAN NOTHING, will shock me.  I have a small and reliable set of friends who are equally there.  Some even work for our biggest banks, or have fine, fine government jobs.  That's all I need to sleep at night.

The rest of the time, or until then, I'm just like everyone else.  Trying to scalp dollars yo while staying one step ahead of the herd.

Success in this ENVIRUNMUNT, to me, isn't about the affordability of your mcmansion.... it's about awareness.  It's the awareness that keeps me content.  Fuck all else.

"It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"


Edit:  "If the credit/debit system fails, how do things go down"

Maybe, in a sense, nothing will happen and the next systemic fuck-job has already been laid out. 

But who the hell really knows.  All that said I can guarantee you this.  You'll be no more fucked than anyone else, and probably much less so... because you won't panic. 

I have cash around, gold/silver, not a huge wad sittin in the bank.  A gun.  A way to get in touch with those important.  And stuff in a bag in case I need to split... and that's if I can even split.  Other than that, inflation / deflation etc who cares.  Cuz if things really go baaaaaaaaad, one thing will be in very short supply... Get Rich Schemes. 

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 23:13 | 3058271 Roosting Chicken
Roosting Chicken's picture

OK.  Thanks Tick, and Angus.  That's pretty much what I thought.  I figure when the shit hits the fan I won't give a shit about my debt either.  I've debated whether it would be smarter to pay off all my cc's, which I could do by mid next year, or say fuck it and max them and buy more PM.  The prudence instilled in me tells me one thing.  The red pill tells me another.  Maybe I'll split the difference.  13% debt against how many 100's% profit almost seems like a no-brainer.  It's hard to predict what scale of failure we will have.  Sure, it will be outrageous, but will a system remain in place or be replaced by a pm backed standard.  Zimbabwe didn't melt into chaos, neither did Germany in the 20s.  theyh just pulled through with another system and those that had PM faired ok ( I assume).  There was depression sure, but not total anarchy.  At this point nothing will shock me either.  But i can't convince my wife of that.  Thanks for leveling with me.  Still can't figure the details but I suppose I'll find out soon enough. 

Now, about that automatic ass-wiping machine.  Any idea where I can get one of those?

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 23:40 | 3058325 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Zimbabwe isn't the US, they don't have the world's reserve currency to fuck around with and manipulate.

I can fabricate an automatic ass wiper for you. The fucker weighs about 1,500 lbs and we'll need the biggest mobile crane to help launch, er... install it for you in your preferred shitter location. We also have the optional "ball washer" attachment if you're interested. It comes in handy after a heavy night of drinking/explosive diarreah combo due to eating too much Mexican or Greek food.

Call 1-800-hly-shit for more info.

Good night and good luck to you Mr. Roosting Chicken.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 00:41 | 3058435 Roosting Chicken
Roosting Chicken's picture

buzz (and everyone that thumbed him up), no animosity here, but you are obviously wired to the matrix too, or you wouldn't have the capability to make this comment.  Some of you may know, and some may not, this is for those that do not know what it is to be unplugged.  If you have never spent a considerable amount of time (months and years, not weekends or weeks) off the grid, in the woods/desert, I would highly recommend you do so before you think you have it all figured out.  As a biologist, I have spent on average 8 months of every year, for the better part of 20 years living in wilderness areas (desert, boreal, and alpine) with nothing but a truck and a tent. That's why I have to have everything automatic. You don't know what's going on the world because there is no power, no internet, and no phone.  You can only guess.  I'm antisocial so the lack of company doesn't bother me.  If you are used to being around people, I feel for you.  The only company you have, besides the extremely annoying squirrels, are the occasional bears that come into camp at 1:00 a.m. and try to steal your food.  I can't count on both hands how many bears I've had to chase off or avoid (depending on the sex, which I hope you can tell the difference, cause that's life or death).  Do you even know how to confront a bear?  Mountain lion?  Squirrel even?  Sure, the squirrels make decent meal but can cause you to lose temporary sanity.  If you're lucky you will see deer or elk.  Do you know the life essential differences between the desert and the forest?  Do you know which plants are edible?  Do you know how to find water?  Do you think your lighter or matches will last forever?  Can you start a fire without them?  Ever sleep in a tent when it's -35?  What do you have?  Wall tent, pup tent, teepee?  Any source of heat in the winter?  Or do you plan on building a log cabin with your bare hands?  Know how?  What tools you need?  Know how to skin a critter and tan a hide?  Make sandals or clothes? Make anything? It's easy to talk about the matrix.  It's an entirely different thing to live outside the matrix.  There's nothing like a nice steak and glass of wine huh?  "Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger".  Best of luck to all of you, just don't kid yourself.  Put down the economics book and the laptop and spend some time learning how to live outside the matrix.  That's my advice.  Foxfire books will serve you better than finance books in the future.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:50 | 3057921 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

" when the bough breaks; it will be a systemic break"


We never should have put the baby in the treetops in the first place.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:54 | 3057937 JR
JR's picture

The Bernanke economy is headed toward an economic donnybrook. The proof is that Bernanke has stopped all pretense of acting for anything but the stock market, as Tyler said today. Why?

My premise is 1) the investment bankers are insolvent and are trying to reboot their wealth by taking money from the retail investors – until the bankers essentially are the only traders, and

2) Bernanke’s running out of time because the world’s politicians can no longer be enlisted to deliver. That the political pressure is building can be seen by how scared the powers that be get when they think there may be no “fiscal cliff” solution.

The Internet is starting to pull the curtain back. The era of wealth transfer is running to an end. The Left’s Marxist arguments of “tax the rich” are as old as socialism and are hurting more than helping the Democrats; the Republican Party’s only chip is to sell out its base and cut “entitlements.”

The cause for all the problems is the Fed and the offshoring of Americans’ jobs, jobs once the envy of the world; the manufacturing and middle management job base that over the past quarter of a century built up the present surplus of more than $2 trillion in Social Security (Medicare has begun running in the red), says Paul Craig Roberts. Low paying jobs simply can't deliver. Middle class jobs are scarce, writes Roberts:

[A]t the end of 2011 there were only 1 million more jobs than in 2002 (when to meet population growth the economy needed 14 million new jobs).

Only 426,000 of these jobs are in the private sector. The bulk of the net new jobs consist of waitresses and bartenders and health care and social assistance….

[Nicolas Stix adds: And the health care and social assistance workers who are employed by “private” organizations are “private” in name only. Most are overwhelmingly paid for by the taxpayer.]

As for manufacturing jobs, they not only did not grow with the population but declined absolutely. During these nine years, 3.5 million middle class manufacturing jobs were lost. Over the entire nine years, only 48,000 new jobs were created for architects and engineers.

In the 21st century the US economy has been able to create only a few new jobs and these are in lowly paid domestic services that cannot be offshored, such as waitresses and bartenders.

The lack of jobs, especially high value-added, high productivity jobs, is the reason real median household income has declined and the distribution of income has worsened. Without rising real household income, there cannot be a consumer economy….

Roberts then makes the case of why the Fed can no longer substitute a rise in consumer debt to drive the economy in place of the missing rise in consumer incomes.

“When debt and real estate prices reached unsustainable levels, the bubble popped and the ongoing financial crisis was upon us.”

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 20:56 | 3057943 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

"there is still nowhere to invest off-world"


Even if we had 'investors' in new Martian Habitats, the fukin HFT's would front-run the time-delay for info to get from here to there.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 21:36 | 3058027 dolph9
dolph9's picture

Let me tell you about my apathy.

Starting around 2003, or thereabouts, I could tell something was wrong.  I didn't know much about anything at the time, but still, it seemed that nobody cared, nobody wanted to hear what I had to say.  You are the "invisible man."  Not an uncommon experience in Amerika, no matter what your background.

Then 2008 happened and alot of time to read up on what was going on, and to my (lack of) suprise, still nobody cares, even though what I'm saying now is completely different than what I was saying before.

So, to sum doesn't matter what I say or do not say, it doesn't matter what I do or do not to....nobody GIVES A SHIT.

So my response is perfectly rational, perfectly thought up, and perfectly ethical:  ok, fuckers, I don't give a shit about you either. Either you have something to trade, or you don't.  If you don't, I don't care about you.  At all.

Payback's a bitch.

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 23:16 | 3058280 Tommy Gunner
Tommy Gunner's picture

So you are sayhing:


That the cocksuckers on Wall Street who got rich on criminal acts should continue paying 15% tax?

That many major corporations should continue to pay sweet fuck all in taxes enriching their management and shareholders - while some poor bastard who DOES work hard pays 30% or more?

The rich are gaming the system with their lobbyists and their bricbes - at the expense of the middle class.

Fuck the Rich - let's have a job creation program that involves building 50,000 guillotines!

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 00:08 | 3058379 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Front run the FED; the trade of 2012..all based on total bullshit.......who would have thought?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 04:14 | 3058610 Manic by Proxy
Manic by Proxy's picture

Would it be possible to touch the debt ceiling as we go over the fiscal cliff? Are there bonus points for that? Could I get corporate sponsorship?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 10:07 | 3058966 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

I'm getting it while I can... one gun a week, and ammo almost daily.

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