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Gold-to-Silver Ratio Soars By Most In 2012

Tyler Durden's picture


From the open of the US equity market day-session, gold and silver have diverged aggressively. Gold is notably outperforming silver - in fact today is the biggest jump in the Gold/Silver ratio of the year. The Gold/Silver ratio has also retraced upwards to its 50DMA. It seems there is overall pressure on precious metals post-Bernanke but the relative preference is for Gold so far.


From the start of the US equity day-session, gold and silver have diverged...


Gold/Silver ratio jumps by most in 2012 to catch up to its 50DMA...


Charts: Bloomberg


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Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:33 | 3060157 becky quick and...
becky quick and her beautiful mouth's picture

silver can destroy jpm. gold, not so much.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:39 | 3060188 Canadian Dirtlump
Canadian Dirtlump's picture

gold can destroy the US dollar, which is more dangerous.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:53 | 3060260 Mad Mohel
Mad Mohel's picture

JPM is a pissant in the grand scheme of things. Gold can make or break nations.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:07 | 3060590 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

You mean JPM is not the goverment...?

It must be Goldman Sachs I know it's one of the two,or maybe a mix of both.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:34 | 3060158 MassDecep
MassDecep's picture

Do I take that vacation in Cancun , or stack more silver.......BOTH!!!

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 22:38 | 3061702 delacroix
delacroix's picture

check out nicaragua. cheap and beautiful. see how much people can do with little. stack with what you save.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:33 | 3060161 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture

1990 - Present = giant technical bull flag in this ratio.  To the chagrin of the silver stackers, the ratio is getting started on its way to new all-time highs above 100

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:36 | 3060170 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Perfect ~ Can't... It's not like I'm an IDIOT and trade paper prices on it or anything...

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:45 | 3060220 fuu
fuu's picture

"giant technical bull flag"



Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:54 | 3060265 Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ's picture

The Fed just agreed to monetize 1 trillion a year, and silver is dropping like a rock? The only reliable "giant technical bull flag" appears on a graph where insanity is charted on the x-axis, and greed is charted on the y-axis. Boy, do I hate evil.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:33 | 3060162 It is a bargin ...
It is a bargin my friend's picture

I sense a bit of straw grabbing here, i for one am fucked off gold did not break out, not least yesterday and feel as though i',m being slowly but increasingly strangled by CB's here

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:43 | 3060212 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

Exactly, When inflation hits hard, People are going to need the gold and silver price (and mining stocks) to go up so they can buy gas and reasonably good food, assuming salaries doesn't increase, and I don't think there's any danger in that happening.  

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:30 | 3060439 PiratePawpaw
PiratePawpaw's picture

If someone GAVE me a share of mining stock, I would walk in the nearest coin dealer and trade it for whatever I could get.

I would consider anything over a new issue zinc penny to be a fair price.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:33 | 3060455 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

new QE announcements don't have the pop on commodity prices like it used to. The comex game is still rigged and futures traders dont want to get their PP slapped again with one of those dirty little margin hikes. Not with silver at $33 range. Burned too many times have they been.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:34 | 3060164 Texas Ginslinger
Texas Ginslinger's picture

Good time to buy physical silver.

The price is getting brutalized downward right now.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:39 | 3060194 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

The Phyz price? Have you called around? Like I said above I don't think the actual phyz prices are down that much.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:01 | 3060304 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

The physical market spot is determined by the paper markets which supposedly reflect the underlying physical supply and demand.  When the $1,500,000,000,000,000.00 in derivatives finally unwind the prices of most everything will tank.  This includes the "metals" in nominal terms, but NOT the metals purchasing power.


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:09 | 3060332 DosZap
DosZap's picture

The Phyz price? Have you called around? Like I said above I don't think the actual phyz prices are down that much.


 No need for me to call, I deal with same folks 95% of the time since '98.

I can buy 1oz Rounds  @ $33.54 right now and Am Eagles for under $36.00.

Wainting for it to go to $31.00 or below.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:13 | 3060358 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I was referring to eagles and your price sounds right.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:34 | 3060166 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Be careful about buying in. The silver price is highly affected by industrial production and a coming recession could force it down. The risk with gold is twofold: all profits are taxed as "income" and the very real risk of it becoming contraband, as it was when I was in my 20's. Due to changes in the tax structure, I would sell a good portion of stocks and park it in (physical) cash. The dollar looks like the least ugly girl in the room right now.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:39 | 3060191 metastar
metastar's picture

I understand what you're saying, but...

I don't think there is enough alcohol on the planet to make the dollar look good!

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:46 | 3060224 fuu
fuu's picture

"a coming recession"



Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:52 | 3060258 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Recession is a direction, not a level. Hence our present "recovery" off the horrible 2008 trouncing. We are still well below the levels of 2007, and still in recovery. When I say recession, I mean a downdraft from where we are now, that is, a negative DIRECTION.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:03 | 3060316 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

The USD is trading where it was in the fall of 2008 (around 80) while gold has risen from 700 to 1700. Silver 9 to 32.

UE is much higher. Food stamps are at record highs. Debt levels are extreme. What "direction" are you talking about?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:10 | 3060351 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Some people have no sense of perspective.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:50 | 3060958 rqb1
rqb1's picture

some perspective have no sense of people

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 18:27 | 3061036 akak
akak's picture

Some perspective people have no sense.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 19:59 | 3061249 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

No sense of perspective some people have.

Jedi Master

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 18:44 | 3061057 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

The USD is trading where it was in the fall of 2008 (around 80) while gold has risen from 700 to 1700.


Hey bay..i can juice it up even more--

The dollar is trading at 2005 levels--gold was at 450 then-any asshole that says it hasn't been a profitable trade- has shit for brains-

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 20:07 | 3061271 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture


Dont tell that to the Doelarr bulls who seem to have no ability to discern the facts on currency debasement and purchasing power.

The wailing and knashing of teeth by these buffoonish clowns gets louder and louder as the gold price rises year after year.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:55 | 3060277 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

I think gold profits are taxed as "capital gains" hence some people I know are cashing out of physical by year end before obama higher capital gains tax takes effect.  Then when gold bottoms at $1400 in the first quarter they will buy back in with the full realization that capital gains taxes are going up under our globalist controlled hijacked government.


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:57 | 3060290 DosZap
DosZap's picture


We will not see Gold @ 1400.00 again for a long time if your right 1.2 trillion Chinese bennybux will be coming home.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:00 | 3060301 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

Yeah. Like the tax man has any idea of the cost basis of my gold eagles. And I sure as hell am not going to tell them where they are, and how much they cost. That's the beauty.

Of course all of my stuff trades at a loss. I suck at this stuff.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:01 | 3060309 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Sorry, incorrect. They are income. Check out the IRS info. Your friends cashing out are mistaken, and will pay the piper this coming April. As for $1,400 I would also disagree, and would sell now if I agreed. I think until something unexpected happens, we will be stable for months. The new normal is priced in.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:19 | 3060361 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Whoever is feeding you this line of BS should be slapped. Buying gold with cash is an exchange of like items and is not taxable by the IRS code. There is no normal in these markets, they are algo driven and generated.


If only half of the people understood the laws as they were written spreading the truth would be easier.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:49 | 3060770 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Paying TAXES on gold? (or any physical item for that matter). There's a shitload of villages missing their idiots.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:49 | 3060774 Orly
Orly's picture

Short-term capital gains...

38% if I am not mistaken...

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:54 | 3060795 DosZap
DosZap's picture


28% on gains................12 mos or less.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:57 | 3060817 akak
akak's picture

NO, that is WRONG!  Well, only half-right, anyway.

One is only liable to pay the 28% rate if one's income tax bracket reaches or exceeds that level --- for those of more modest income, one's precious metals profits are only subject to their regular income tax rate.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 18:14 | 3061004 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

If you do it right, you don't even pay income taxes.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 18:33 | 3061045 akak
akak's picture

That goes without saying.


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:55 | 3060803 Ulf Murphy
Ulf Murphy's picture


Look 60% down under "Collectibles gain or loss".  Both "metal (such as gold, silver or platinum bullion)" and "coins" are taxed at the 28% collectible rate.


Or look under IRC 408(m)(3)(b).

1031 won't help you in tax court.


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:51 | 3060914 akak
akak's picture

Please learn to read and stop with this "always 28%" bullshit already!  GOD, I am tired of endlessly reading that misleading and incorrect crap!

One's precious metal profits are taxed at 28% ONLY if their total income puts them at or above that same income tax rate --- for those of more modest (normal) incomes, one's precious metal profits are only taxed at their prevailing income tax rate, as normal income.

From the IRS link above:


All of your net capital gain is from selling collectibles, so the capital gain rate would be 28%. Because you are single and your taxable income is $25,000, none of your taxable income will be taxed above the 15% rate. The 28% rate does not apply.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:37 | 3060926 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

By the time I actually expect to SELL gold and silver there wont BE a US Dollar around to try and tax me on. 


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 18:16 | 3061007 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Helps me just fine every time I get audited... It's all about how you keep your paperwork and records. I swear some of you need better accountants.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:23 | 3060641 I Am Not a Copp...
I Am Not a Copper Top's picture

I lost my train of thought

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:35 | 3060169 The Axe
The Axe's picture

beware the Central bank attack on GOLD....3 times they have bitch slapped gold down hard in asia....they hate that people are buying metals....great ready for a down hard...weak hands out.....coming     gold    down 75 bucks before Christmas....



Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:52 | 3060262 DosZap
DosZap's picture

beware the Central bank attack on GOLD....3 times they have bitch slapped gold down hard in asia....they hate that people are buying metals....great ready for a down hard...weak hands out.....coming gold down 75 bucks before Christmas....


And watch how FAST the Asians buy it up, especially the Chinese, and the Indians.

All headed EAST,never to return.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 21:36 | 3061514 Xanadu_doo
Xanadu_doo's picture

fuck all I hope you're right



Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:36 | 3060171 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

I simply don't know where they're getting the silver to keep this up.  I know the gold is flowing out of the vaults.  Where the fuck are they getting it?  Is it coming from industrial sources?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:37 | 3060180 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

no phyzz... Just contracts settled in joobux...

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:48 | 3060232 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

If it's being settled in FRNs, why doesn't the comex go to cash settlement/blow up when Sprott and Central Fund, and phys buyers keep taking it off the market?  Annual production is constrained, and there's only so many oz above ground.  Again, where is the physical coming from?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:30 | 3060427 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Same reason as everything else...

Despite the rhetoric... Nobody is interested in BLOWING UP the system... You continue to scrape off what you can for as long as the MSM & propaganda artists can keep the 'Snookie' & 'Honey Boo-Boo' crowd believing that the Emperor actually DOES have clothes...

It'll continue this way until it doesn't (&/or until the last penny has been plucked from the last steamroller)... End of story...

Spend your joobux while you got 'em... It's just a freaking currency for Chrissakes... Tho some still think they mean something... Better for you that they do...

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:25 | 3060660 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Again, where is the physical coming from?

It's PAPER dudes.................keep a hard hand on what you have,unless you have no choice.

Stop and think about where can you put fiat, and make sure it retains any buying power or protection( dont say TIPS Treasuries), because we know who controls the TOTAL fake stats(CPI).

Part of their GANG.

I know I am paying a min of 25% on average more for food across the spread than last yr,many items I have gone to store brands because I refuse to get screwed over name brand(when blindfolded for a taste test) damn hard to tell the difference.

Case in point, wife eats Quaker 1min Oatmeal,LARGE size was $3.50, 6mos ago, now it $4.80,beef and chicken,pork, are so high I stopped even buying it.

( bought 40+#'s ground chuck last year),damn glad.

3# Ground Chuck 80/20, was $12.00 a year ago, now it's $21.00.

Same large chain store.

Seafood???, FERgidaboutit.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:06 | 3060842 Ulf Murphy
Ulf Murphy's picture

Where are you at? I am outside a large metropolitan area (4mm+). I bought the large generic minute oats at Aldi for $1.99 two weeks ago.  I paid .79/lb for chicken leg quarters, on sale, at my local chain.  I consistently get a whole pork loin for $2.29/lb (10 lb minimum) that I cut into chops, roasts and cubes at either Aldi, Costco or local butcher.  Use coupons, Watch for sales. Eat in season veggies, or better yet, grow your own.

In other words, BTFD.  You do it for PM's, why would you not do it for everything?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:55 | 3060968 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Sounds to me like he's getting it blessed by a rabbi...

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 20:04 | 3061258 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

Buy a chest freezer and a quarter beef/half hog, etc.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:48 | 3060233 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I simply don't know where they're getting the silver to keep this up.

That's the point, they DON'T have it!!!!!!!!!!!

The supply is damned near extinct in real world supply.WHY do you think they are attacking it constantly?.

If someone came in and orderd 2 million ounces THEY COULD NOT deliver it!.And if the longs demanded physical delivery, they would have to pay them in fiat.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:52 | 3060254 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

The question above by the Sgt is a good one, and Sprott is a good example.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:25 | 3060416 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

When physical is continually taken into strong hands, you can't have a market consisting only of paper.  It would blow up.  They can only use manipulation tactics to amplify the effects of dumping their stockpile into the market, so as to use it as efficiently as possible.  However, when they run out of physical to dump, paper manipulation will cease to work very rapidly, the system will simply explode.  

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:30 | 3060447 Bohm Squad
Bohm Squad's picture

We'll find out soon - Sprott has contracted for delivery of 7.127 million ounces.


The Link.



Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:39 | 3060485 AgShaman
AgShaman's picture

The "longs" can't force themselves to shat in their beds....or burn down the casino that provides the "fix" to their addictions...

depending on how you look at it.

When the Investment Bank vaults run dry....they will position themselves as the new "longs" and the "remoras" that have toughed it out rolling contracts may be able to ride their waves/wakes and cash in on their fiat dreams.

It doesn't guarantee any of them will be left holding any physical when the music stops and the search for chairs commences.

Not that it matters anyway. Fiat whores are "confirmed" in their respective religion....

Just like us PM bugs

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:52 | 3060253 SILVERGEDDON

It is called paper silver. Re - hypothecarted toilet paper bullshit one hundred times over actual metals backing the poo paper. Leverage plus robo trading equals disproportionate leveraged trading equals manipulation equals jail time some day for some folks. After the fall. Not before.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:20 | 3060394 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

I know, but people are still taking the physical off the market.  Regardless of what the paper markets do, at some point, the ponzi blows up when the manipulators deliver the last oz from the vault.  Annual mine production is constrained, and it appears that more physical is being taken into strong hands than actual mine production.  The US Gov used to keep silver stockpiles in West Point, and the Denver Mint, how much, nobody knows.  

When physical demand is greater than annual mine production, at some point the ponzi ends.  It just depends how much stockpiled silver was in the vault.  US government holdings of silver are secret, but it appears they're probably shoveling it out the door.  What they can shovel is finite, and once they run out, even with paper manipulation, the physical market will eventually freak the fuck out. 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 22:57 | 3061746 delacroix
delacroix's picture

the us mint sold something like 12% more last year than the entire U.S. yearly production. canada was something like 14%. china and russia keep all of theirs in country. the remaining suppliers have got to be stretched pretty thin.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:36 | 3060176 youngman
youngman's picture

I bought gold today....silver yesterday....oh me the fundimentals still look good for PM´s.....way good.....this is the casino players playing and the long term we will win the game and the casino will close

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:37 | 3060179 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

Hedgie liquidation going on

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:37 | 3060183 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Too soon?  Shit     113

$1,771.99 $200,234.87 Subtotal: $200,234.87 S, H, & I: $0.00 Taxes: $0.00 Discount: $0.00     Total: $200,234.87
Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:32 | 3060692 Richard Head
Richard Head's picture

You bought 113 ozs of gold?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:06 | 3060845 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

That is how much fell out of me canoe.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 20:11 | 3061279 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

Pics or it never happened.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:38 | 3060185 Slewburger
Slewburger's picture

Like how QE4 double bonus plus good is announced and Ag gets hammered.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:40 | 3060192 Platinum_Investor
Platinum_Investor's picture

Silver is easier to manipulate.  Smaller market.  This is just plain illegal crap!

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:40 | 3060193 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

Yesterday it was the other way arround: gold unch, silver up 1.5%.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:41 | 3060198 Platinum_Investor
Platinum_Investor's picture

It's a good thing the Fed announced they will be expanding their balance sheet by $1 trillion a year otherwise Gold and Silver would be down double today.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:43 | 3060202 muppet_master
muppet_master's picture

PMS down today

specially down from yesterday's QEorganizer's QE4 announcement.  I'll PATIENTLY (year 2016??) wait for gold @ sub $350 and silver @ sub $3.75 they won't go straight down

gold might be "outperforming silver", meaning that silver will be down -90% from current levels and gold "only" down -85%

 today Au = -1.% Ag = -3.5% or so

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:22 | 3060405 s2man
s2man's picture

If something goes down a negative percentage, doesn't that mean it went up?  ;-)

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:43 | 3060208 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

bearish for gold imo

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:44 | 3060216 MFLTucson
MFLTucson's picture

The clowns are at it again.  More money printing, more confsetti, more debt means higher dollar lower Gold and Silver?  ahahahahahahah!! 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:50 | 3060244 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

I just calculated before coming across this post.  For the day silver down 4.1%.  Gold down 1.25%.  A few days ago I looked at spot prices from many years back.  Platinum prices were twice as high as those of gold.  The perception of silver and platinum being industrial metals is killing them "for the moment".


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:57 | 3060285 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Unfortunatly I think this may all be priced in already. It will take another financial accident to force gold up again (and MAYBE silver). But don't forget the patteren: accident-drop in PMs-dramatic rise in PMs.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:08 | 3060599 DosZap
DosZap's picture

 It will take another financial accident to force gold up again (and MAYBE silver).

Well we wont have long to wait, because Europe is about as close to the edge as it can get.'

And Obummers already said ANY gain from tax increases 75%+ will be spent on NEW spending, not deficit reduction.

Face it, the entire global cartel of fiat printers are sitting on a cliff they will never get up from, w/out a re-do.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:48 | 3060229 A. Magnus
A. Magnus's picture

Does anyone consider the obvious - that the Fed is taking those extra monthly QE payments to monkey hammer PMs so the elites can stack with impunity? That would be my first guess...

Gold, bitchez!

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:48 | 3060236 fuu
fuu's picture

Where the silver bitchez at?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:56 | 3060269 SILVERGEDDON

In your face, monkey boy. Live by the paper, burn with the paper. your time is gonna come.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:57 | 3060289 fuu
fuu's picture

You think I like silver paper? You are an idiot.

Stack it up or get the fuck out.

Fri, 12/14/2012 - 18:27 | 3064751 SILVERGEDDON

I am all about stacking, dipshit. Thought you were calling us out a la MDB, laughing about a temporary downward ripple in metals.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:55 | 3060276 caimen garou
caimen garou's picture dont see any problem here with gold/silver other than paper chasing  fools getting knocked out buy the paper creating fools!

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 14:55 | 3060278 DosZap
DosZap's picture

At this point ANY substantial drop is a Xmas present, so if you get the chance load up the wagons.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:06 | 3060323 pimpmysteel
pimpmysteel's picture

just in time for my bonus to hit. was hoping for some kind of a smack down before it hit. looks like my wish is coming true.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:02 | 3060310 Bastiat009
Bastiat009's picture

Congrats to ZH for finding a way to print "gold outperforms something" today. To what will it be compared next? 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:03 | 3060317 fuu
fuu's picture

Your IQ?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:58 | 3060386 Bastiat009
Bastiat009's picture

:-) ok, I like your answer and I guess you think I am extremely intelligent so that gold can be compared to a huge number. Or you may think I am stupid in which case gold will outperform a very small number. 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:07 | 3060592 fuu
fuu's picture


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:18 | 3060644 Orly
Orly's picture

When gold gets compared to tulip bulbs and Beanie Babies, that's when I'll just completely ignore it.

(As opposed to just kind of ignoring it and snickering to myself as I do now...)

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:32 | 3060697 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

"When gold gets compared to tulip bulbs and Beanie Babies."

You mean like 10 year treasuries that are 240 year highs!??

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:08 | 3060340 jmcadg
jmcadg's picture

This is a dream come true. Keep smashing it please, I can't buy yet.

And making silver cheaper in relation to gold.

I think I just came in my pants. Good job Blythe.

By the way I came in my pants because of silver not you Blythe, you big footed whore.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:09 | 3060344 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

Working according to plan.  My Priceline short is coming along nicely as well as Apple.  When they take the huge 100 point dump it will be time to cash in and flip it to Phyz silver.  Like taking candy from a baby :-)

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:10 | 3060348 krugergate
krugergate's picture

Maybe I should take the chart to the Bank of Nova Scotia - our Cdn bullion bank - and ask the grumpy lady at the counter whether I should buy more gold or silver today. I take great pleasure exchanging pieces of paper with numbers and pretty pictures on them for oz of gold and silver. Just sayin!

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:11 | 3060350 edwardo1
edwardo1's picture

All you folks looking for " a huge drop" in the price of gold, in particular, need to understand something:

1.) Just as the monetary authorities don't want physical to go up too much too quickly, neither do they want it to go down too much lest physical go into hiding.

With that in mind, if you are waiting for prices to go below the lows of earlier this year, don't hold your breath.


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:15 | 3060372 devo
devo's picture

Crazy that a metal in backwardation can go down 4% in one day.

I see silver as the buy of the decade so I'm hoping it dips into the 20s.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:17 | 3060378 AgShaman
AgShaman's picture

Dear Keynesian Shylocks,

A sale tomorrow would work out nicely for my schedule.


"Joe Bag-of-elements"

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:25 | 3060419 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

Silver down over 3%....
Lucky it's a natural move and not manipulation by the USA Gov.&friends.
Fucking terrorist.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:33 | 3060462 ozzz169
ozzz169's picture

I hate this technical analysis crap, some please tell me why a 50 dma is more important then a 51 day or 55 day, and same with 100 day and 98 day, its always crossing some moving average, and picking some arbitrary day because its a nice round number is just pure random and stupidity.  and because you get 100,000's of morons using the same round number it somehow makes it significant?   And now we have computers programed to arb these idiots.  they analyze the data faster then these "technical" analisist can and beat them to the punch then get out before they can see a change.  so what you should do is use a 51 day and 49 day, and a so on so you can see it before the guy looking at the 50 and beat him to the punch, and make sure you dont miss your classic "head and shoulders" pattern. 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:42 | 3060503 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

For someone who hates technical analysis, you've sure done plenty of it in that post. :D

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:29 | 3060674 Orly
Orly's picture

"...why a 50 dma is more important then a 51 day..."

Because everyone uses that number and the 100 and the 200.

But unless you're using an MA in conjunction with another MA, either shorter or longer, then MAs by themselves are pretty useless.  All it shows is a general trend in the chart and if you can't see that, you shouldn't be looking at charts anyway.  They come in handy for MA crosses to signal when the market may change trend.

The algos that are running also seem to be designed to keep the MAs nice and uniform so that there is no massive break in continuinity...until there is.

Also, the classic head and shoulders pattern is very rare in charts and I will again take this opportunity to get on my soapbox and state that head and shoulders patterns are a form of "mesa;" a table.  Flat, with a bump on one shoulder, a flatline, a head, a flatline and a bump for the other shoulder; keyword there being, "flatline."  From one shoulder to the next, they are nearly identical in price level.  I now stand down.


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:29 | 3060681 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture


Today's losses in the metals markets have been caused by the 47.572-day cycle exponentially-smoothed RSI crossover ratio stochastic variable Bollinger-band flow-channel indicator reaching a second-derivative Fibonacci inflection point.





Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:36 | 3060468 ejmoosa
ejmoosa's picture

I am happy to get rid of my paper currency for silver and gold.....the paper will be worthless when the shit hits the fan. 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:48 | 3060521 Freddie
Freddie's picture

SkyNet will find you.  People voted for this in 2008 and 2012. 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 15:56 | 3060556 Bastiat009
Bastiat009's picture

And in 2004, 2000, 1996, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, 1976 .... you get the picture.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:03 | 3060579 DosZap
DosZap's picture

 Sure, gold is a good preserver of wealth, but you'll need someone verify/assay it in order to sell or trade it.

Where did u get that crazy idea?, stick w/coins of the realms, and no worries mate.Eags/Mapes/Roos/Krugs.

Now Silver unless it's Mapes or Eagles,and Kookaburras,Libertads, etc, are another ball game.

Now bars,is a whole nuther ballgame.For both.

I think folks paying a lot more in prems for Eagles(Gld) are missing a double play, odds are better n even the dollar sites out before the Canadian,or Aud currencies do.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:16 | 3060634 A. Magnus
A. Magnus's picture

"Where did u get that crazy idea?, stick w/coins of the realms, and no worries mate.Eags/Mapes/Roos/Krugs."

You do know there is a Chinese company that makes Tungsten filled, gold plated 'replica' rounds, right?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:40 | 3060721 DosZap
DosZap's picture

A. Magnus

Yep, so they say, and my dealer is huge,and the MAN say's that there is so little of that out there it is not worth even thinking of.

You can tell by sound what is real and what is not.When I go in to sell it they look at it, and don't even think of weighing it.

Have you tried to order any of that site?, if not pls post a link I want to order some, just for testing(the site Chinese I saw that advertised them, when I asked about pricing, they backed off real quick, and tole me any coin with raised lettering/faces etc, they could not duplicate.(after their site said Krugs were the easiest to make).

Basically I called em on it, OK I wanna buy some........3 weeks to respond, and told me no can do.

I have heard/seen not one instance of coins of the realm,filled w/ tungsten.They Tungsten blanks will shatter if subjected to the tonnage required to properly mint them.

Bars, another game.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:22 | 3060649 AgShaman
AgShaman's picture

Sunshine is now using a hologram anti-counterfeit feature on their gold and silver bars.

It's pretty "trick" actually.

Anybody that understands gold and silver will not be bothered by the scare tactics that are floating around.

so yeah, agreed Dos Zap....the usual suspects are the "preferred" offerings

but when people force themselves to get educated about all that's offered in the realm and shuck their fear....

There's lots of options to be had

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:25 | 3060666 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Buybacks for one ounce gold american eagles are much higher than for GMLs or GKRs.  That must be taken into consideration.  Spread (difference between customer buy and sell price) for GAEs is reasonable.

Oh, fake one ounce krugerrands pop up every now and then.


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:57 | 3060807 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Tuco, as there should be,since the prems are double.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:35 | 3060712 devo
devo's picture

Any opinion on the 1.20oz Mexican Pesos?

To me they're the "junk silver" of the gold world. Also beautiful to look at.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:50 | 3060753 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Any opinion on the 1.20oz Mexican Pesos?

To me they're the "junk silver" of the gold world. Also beautiful to look at


Yep sure are,just like old style silver libertads, the 50 Pesos are 90% pure.

Only issue w/them is MOST folks of the world want min of 22k, and 90% doesn't make it.

But for premiums, and best buys, the 50 Peso restrikes are GTG(IMHO)

One of the best deals on the NET is running at the top of the page(mine anyway), $39.90 over spot for Mapes.( I pay less than that when I buy, but not much less)

There is a shortage of them, as the Canadian Mint has had sales like we have on them, compared to the Eagles.

I refuse to pay a $70+ prem on an Eagle.(not when I can get 24k for half or less that.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:10 | 3060837 devo
devo's picture

GTG meaning good to go?

I believe the pesos were the best selling gold coins before Krugerrands hit the market. I have a bunch of them, just wondering if it's worth trading them for finer gold or not. (I'm thinking not worth it, but would like to hear some other opinions on it).

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:14 | 3060623 dragoneyes74
dragoneyes74's picture

The action in gold and silver is troubling.  Long-term I think there's huge upside, but that isn't going to happen until big money abandons bonds and the dollar to chase hard assets, thereby driving the physical price upward because supply will be running out.  But that's an end game move. 

In the meantime, it seems the buying capacity of the longs is running lower and lower.  The 2011 high in silver was a short-covering rally because it was the first time we went that high in 30 years and it was driven by QE2 (and going back further QE1), but also the Middle East uprising and the Japan tsunami/nuclear meltdown.  That kept forcing shorts to cover and momentum longs to jump on, making a crazy run that is probably not going to happen again (until the end game).  When it was flirting with $50 I'm sure there was some kind of collusion to raise margins like they did to crush the market.  After bottoming at $32, silver then retracted to $44 then got crushed again with the Twist announcement of Sept 11'.  I bet a lot of those heavily long started losing money in this volatility.  Silver then bounced off $26 and retraced to $37 then got crushed again down to $26.  Each time the longs must get less confident and many take losses, I'm sure, some of that buying capacity never to return.  Now we retraced back up to $35 in anticipation of QE3 but it was overbought and sold off deeper than it should have.  That was a red flag.  Then it retraced up to mid $34's and got crushed again.  Every dip got bought except last week there was one day silver got crushed with no dip buying.  That was another red flag.  Yesterday was a big red flag.  We are nowhere near overbought and Bernanke announced the most bullish-for-the-metals policy ever and we had a weak burst, a crush, another burst, and selling ever since.  

So, the question is: where does the buying capacity and catalyst come from now?  I'm not saying it's over for the metals by any stretch.  But I don't see how we make any sizable move if no one is buying right now following that announcement.  What's the catalyst that will drive the buying if QE4 didn't?  I wouldn't be surprised to see the selling drive us down to $30 where we better find support, and if we do and the bottom is well-timed with some kind of resolution to the f-cliff (by pushing the pain out) as well as raising the debt ceiling, the dollar should finally start trending down, which will allow the metals to slowly trend up.  But I don't think silver will have the legs to get past $37 by the time everything falls apart.  Then it will get smoked with everything else.  THEN, I hope, when all hits the fan, we will get the exponential rise in silver that we expect because the end game will be upon us and there will be a flight away from paper.  But I believe there has to be a 2008-like trouncing first.   We'll see how this plays out, but this isn't promising action in the metals right now.  

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:21 | 3060651 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Good analysis Dragoneyes.  Thank you. 


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:27 | 3060669 A. Magnus
A. Magnus's picture

"But I believe there has to be a 2008-like trouncing first. We'll see how this plays out, but this isn't promising action in the metals right now. "

Patience grasshopper - in the late 70s gold was hammered down by nearly 50% a year or two before it kicked into parabolic mode. Remember the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent...

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:27 | 3060670 A. Magnus
A. Magnus's picture

"But I believe there has to be a 2008-like trouncing first. We'll see how this plays out, but this isn't promising action in the metals right now. "

Patience grasshopper - in the late 70s gold was hammered down by nearly 50% a year or two before it kicked into parabolic mode. Remember the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent...

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:27 | 3060675 Mi Naem
Mi Naem's picture

"What's the catalyst that will drive the buying if QE4 didn't?"

Some, like myself, are expecting/hoping precious mets to go significatly lower again, at least one more time. 

It looks like the metals market hasn't completely disconnected from equities yet.

I'm double shorting the S&P, and when equities move down, again, I'll be buying more metal on profits from the shorted equities market.  

I hope to catch more silver around $28 or less, and gold around $1300's.  However, whenever the next S&P correction seems to bottom out, I'll buy more metal and probably other commodities.  

That's the plan anyhow. 

And, I think I'm not alone: There's a pretty good amount of money in the shorted ETF's. 

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:44 | 3060722 devo
devo's picture

Supply/demand dynamics, investment demand, adversion to counter-party risk, and uncovering manipulation. I don't know if inflation will drive prices higher since the FED removes anything that shows inflation from the CPI. For inflation to drive prices the public will have to distrust the FED, and sadly most still trust their numbers.

All I know is I'd rather have silver than dollars, and nothing will change that moving forward. If they're giving me more silver for dollars I will take it. Bank error in my favor.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 18:41 | 3061053 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Silver's hecka lot trickier than gold, 'cause it's still mostly an industrial metal, and industrial output is taking a beating.  Global depression and tanking BDI should mean reduced silver demand as a material, but teetering financials should mean increased respect for silver as a PM.

I'd suggest better to put as much as you can stand into gold and play with silver opportunistically.  It's like a cork atop a wave--VERY unpredictable price action.  Gold's more like a heavily ballasted ship.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 21:49 | 3061537 Xanadu_doo
Xanadu_doo's picture

..."But I don't see how we make any sizable move if no one is buying right now following that announcement."...


Umm, I think I know where you can find lots of people who are buying right now.

Without going too far even...


Thu, 12/13/2012 - 23:57 | 3061872 tmorris
tmorris's picture

The only ones selling are the US specilators and manipulators.  The rest of the world is buying and those natural forces will in time overcome the macinations here in America!!

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 16:47 | 3060764 lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

the difference between golds and silvers is the difference between an ugly bitch, and sweet, fine, poontang.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:44 | 3060948 MrButtoMcFarty
MrButtoMcFarty's picture

I disagree sir!!


Jenny McCarthy v Selma Hayek

I love Jenny in a filthy bent over the couch wheeling and dealing sort of way....

But it's Selma I wish to make my wife.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:46 | 3060949 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

I couldn't say really; I always specialized in beautiful poontang; I don;t have your experience to speak from about ugly bitches.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 18:44 | 3061056 lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

lucky you.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:06 | 3060843 DowTheorist
DowTheorist's picture

In spite of my being fundamentally bullish very long term (secular) for gold, I cannot ignore the technicals.


Short and medium term (until ca. 6 months), a rising gold/silver ratio tends to denote bearishness for both metals, even though gold declines less and hence outperforms.

Furthermore, the BLV/GLD (long-term bond/gold term bond/gold) ratio refuses stubbornly to turn bearish (stronger gold). A bullish ratio is acting as a brake for gold. Until the ratio turns bearish (stronger gold) gold will be subdued. More about this vital ratio here:

More worryingly, gold and silver are caught between the Oct 4 highs and the Nov 2 lows. A breakout above the Oct 4 highs would re-confirms the primary bull market. However, the violation of the Nov 2 lows would trigger a primary bear market signal. Right now, gold and silver are dangerously approaching the Nov 2 lows. More about the Nov 2 lows and its relevance here:




Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:12 | 3060862 devo
devo's picture

Bear market? Come on now.

Gold will have a $50 move in early January and obliterate all this "wall of worry" nonsense.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:41 | 3060938 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

You cannot ignore the technicals? That sounds like some kind of psch. disorder; you ought to have that looked into. Metals prices follow technical indicators like gang plows follow prayers; not too good.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 17:38 | 3060928 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Silver in the Zurich Vault; $32.72/ right now. it's not for everybody; but it's not a scam, either. it's all real, itis all there, and it's all yours.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 19:47 | 3061219 jomama
jomama's picture

if you're not holding it in your possession, you don't own it.

how difficult is this concept?

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 18:23 | 3061023 SilverMoneyBags
SilverMoneyBags's picture

Metals are crashing because nation after nation keeps being downgraded. Robert Prechter is probably right. No amount of printing can save anything and prices will go towards 0, not infinity.

Thu, 12/13/2012 - 23:47 | 3061853 reinibe
reinibe's picture
A rising Gold/Silver-Ration (from the lows) pointed 2012 always to falling Gold prices! Chart:

Fri, 12/14/2012 - 06:29 | 3062085 silverdragon
silverdragon's picture

They keep supressing the price of Silver and the trolls keep saying it will go down but I bought at 18 and its almost doubled even while they suppress the fuck out of it. Fuck you, all you sad pathetic trolls, get a real job. Hope you trolls are smart enough to buy Silver even though you are being paid to trash it.

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