Gold And Silver "Paulson'd" Again?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Another day, another precious metals' dumpfest. Many have argued that this could not be a sophisticated hedge fund as they would surely 'trade' their position down, as opposed to hit the street with it all at once? Well, it appears whoever keeps doing this 'dumping' does not have the greatest price-sensitivity...

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Thu, 12/20/2012 - 09:53 | 3082219 zilverreiger
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All we can do is stand by and watch. (and stack phys)

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 09:56 | 3082241 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

No metal was actually harmed in the paper pump job.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:02 | 3082279 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

i have noticed over the last couple years pricing on ebay lags paper pricing, with that being said eagles are still bringing 39 + same with 1 oz bars...with lots of bids...

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:03 | 3082298 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

They should totally outlaw premiums.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:11 | 3082329 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

BEWARE E-BAY unless you have dealt with the dealer and know they are legit.

 

I've had a few bad silver eagles off E-Bay and that's all it takes. Alot of sellers are not frauds on purpose, they are uneduated and will generally take it back. The sellers with NO RETURNS are the ones you DON'T want to buy from.

 

Stay away from E-Bay unless you know the seller!! 

 

 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:15 | 3082359 slyhill
slyhill's picture

Would you mind defining "bad silver eagle" for a neophyte?

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:21 | 3082386 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

One that looks legit but upon closer inspection is not produced by the US Mint.

The first one leapt out becasue of the weight, the second because the rays of sunshine weren't right and the LIBERTY lettering was close, but not right either.

 

In both cases I was able to return and the sellers were not a dealer in either case. I didn't report to E-Bay becasue the sellers took them back, and they were both selling misc. stuff, not lots of coins, so I didn't think they were trying to defraud, just people not knowing what they were doing.

 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:24 | 3082399 slyhill
slyhill's picture

So you bought two fake ASEs on ebay? How many total ASEs have you purchased on ebay?

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:31 | 3082423 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

At the time, I had purchased maybe 10-15 total.

I was listing the open auctions by time ending, to bid on auctions that were about to end so that I could have a better chance of getting the item without lots of bidding. I wasn't paying much attention to the seller's other auctions (I did look at their rating, but unless it's a dealer with lots of completed auctions, ratings don't mean much).

In any event, I stopped on E-Bay after the second and moved onto legit dealers such as Gainsville Coins, APMEX and others.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:44 | 3082463 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

You might know that APMEX has an EBay 'storefront'.They have a nice selection of coins and bars,

and a reasonable shipping charge -  ($4.95 first item, $1.50 each after, in same order).

I too use EBay to monitor prices vs the 'market'.

 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:30 | 3082612 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Everyone's dumping gold to load up on AR-15s.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:44 | 3082464 trav777
trav777's picture

silverbug lemming and his money are soon parted

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:50 | 3082481 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Don't move.....or the Sheriff gets it.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:56 | 3082506 AC_Doctor
AC_Doctor's picture

"trav777: silverbug lemming and his money are soon parted" 

Dumb and ass will never be parted in your case, eternal loser.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:56 | 3082507 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

LMFAO!!  Wake me when it's back down around $8 an ounce.  That's where my dollar cost average is.  Until then I will sleep fine.  And after that, I will still actually have plenty of physical purchasing power.  The monkey hammering is a prerequisite for the printing.  Who you gonna believe Trav? The MSM pushing paper promises that everything is okay or your own lying eyes?  You crack me up.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:16 | 3082564 OutLookingIn
OutLookingIn's picture

Its all good!

Rock, scissors... PAPER WINS!

Dollar down. Euro up. NYSE now sold to ICE to be known as NICE?

As in "naughty or nice"? Yup. Its all good now.

Sell your physical gold and silver - buy govt bonds - buy APPL - just buy paper...

Sarcasm - the ability to insult idiots without them realizing it!  

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:26 | 3082600 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I suppose Tulving being SOLD OUT on 10 of their 23 gold items means nothing either? And five of their silver products are SOLD OUT and four others are delayed for several weeks to deliver.

Watch supplies disappear quickly from the LCS's and bigger retailers as the prices are pushed down. 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:12 | 3082550 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Says the long platinum short gold guy.

lol

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:49 | 3082714 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

i think what maybe going on with the smash downs are some bigger players started to enter the building betting on black ,if the cb's allow this, others would certainly enter, than control is lost.......... so  they will  make sure these deep pocket players "end of years" land on red...also making damn sure they and their friends  understand that a bottomless pit beats deep pockets .....

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 12:39 | 3082985 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

"Gold And Silver "Paulson'd" Again?"

More like Gold And Silver "JPMorgan'd" Again!

 

Jesse:  Gold and Silver Smackdown: Same Time Last Year

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/12/gold-and-silver-smackdown-same-time.html 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:53 | 3082491 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

 

Fake Silver Eagle made in China! How to identify...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5obdQClOrb0

 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:18 | 3082371 Platinum_Investor
Platinum_Investor's picture

This smells like Bulshit to me.  "Bad Silver Eagles".  Well ya don't buy from the person with a (0) rating. Thanks Sherlock ! 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:22 | 3082389 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

You're welcome. I was a noob 2 years ago and got burned twice. That's why I'm trying to help others avoid E-Bay if they don't know the seller.

 

 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:31 | 3082416 USS Bernanke
USS Bernanke's picture

Fed announces 40$ billion extra a month in Exotic Monetary Policy known as Quantative Easing.

Silver & Gold go down for 7 consecutive days after.

..

Yep.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 12:53 | 3083074 topshelfstuff
topshelfstuff's picture

 

though really

""" Fed announces 40$ billion ( X 20 ) extra a month in Exotic Monetary Policy """

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:32 | 3082422 Platinum_Investor
Platinum_Investor's picture

First off their are much cheaper places to buy with less premium then ebay.  But if you trust eBay they have these rating systems.  Buy from someone who is reputable seller which a rating over 100 with a 100% positive success ratio.  Don't buy from someone who has under 20 rating.  

It's not rocket sciene.  But I would rather buy from Kitco or Apmex, Or Gainsville Coins etc.  much better premiums.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:34 | 3082431 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

If you didn't catch the NOOB part, I started on E-Bay becasue I didn't know any better.

 

As I state above, APMEX & Gainsville for all my buys the last 2 years.

 

Thanks for helping NOOBS avoid my mistake.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:34 | 3082433 edb5s
edb5s's picture

I prefer Provident Metals to APMEX.  Much better website and prices are usually better.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:41 | 3082678 yabyum
yabyum's picture

Your local coin shop!!! See it feel it smell it buy it!!

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:56 | 3082752 Swarmee
Swarmee's picture

Don't discount the advantage of supporting a local small business, and the conversation that can be had! Sure the premium is a bit higher than online dealers, but my coin guy will let me know the supply and demand changes he's seeing. Whether he's getting a lot of pre-64 silver moving, or bullion. Are the major suppliers flush or tight? Helps me understand the ground level market better than any online price quote! In about three monthly DCA trips you too can become a regular as long as you're willing to pay in cash and listen at least as much as you talk.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 12:32 | 3082953 Jeepers Creepers
Jeepers Creepers's picture

I actually bought an older "fake" American Gold Eagle that was actually made out of solid gold.  I brought it in to a coin dealer I trust, and he said there were a lot of fakes made when gold was especially cheap.

 

It seemed really odd to make a counterfeit coin out of real gold, but they're out there.

 

The pawn shop I bought it from took it back with a full refund, it was still worth an ounce of gold, I just wasn't sure of the exact purity so i didn't want to risk it.

 

My advice is buy from a real local coin dealer that's established.  Most aren't going to throw away their reputation and livelihood trying to move fake coins.  My experience with Ebay is the premiums are usually too high because of all the fees involved.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 18:02 | 3084220 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

GetZeeGold: ''They should totally outlaw premiums."

 

Until you want to sell, eh? Horrid logic. You should be a banker.

In fact, why don't you take your logic to its final conclusion. Let's ban profits and tax every company and person at 100%, until of course it is time when you might benefit from such a premium. By the way, that premium is called profit - A nasty capitalistic idea.

This is a perfect example of someone abandoning free market principles because one is tied, married to a specific investment. No principle - no values - just like our politicians. Yea, I know I might get some PM bugs that will dispute my post. But then I would say, "why on earth are you investing in PM's unless you hope to profit (with premiums)?"

And by the way, I remind you that I do hold some PM's as a small portion of my portfolio for emergencies. I actually like premiums and profit. That is the reason I bought them for potential profit and safety.

Fri, 12/21/2012 - 10:02 | 3086390 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Interesting. Two down arrows but they are too cowardly to post. What's the matter? Can't you make a logical argument to debate my comment?

Come on you whimps, I am am calling you out. If you have an opposing position, STATE IT, instead of being a COWARD.

 

Quite frankly, I am sick of people that desire our politicians be moral and make ethical decisions but then then those people are THEMSELVES UNMORAL AND UNETHICAL. GetZeeGold illustrates that. We have the unethical, unprincipled government because the voters themselves are such. In other words, the failing government is only a reflection of the failing voters and its culture. And the best evidence I have given to ZH is when I present a logical argument and no one presents a logical argument to refute it. And at the displeasure of others, I will continue to do that.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:15 | 3082355 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yeah, I don't understand people on eBay anymore.  I know there's always going to be premiums, shipping, handling, fees, etc.. but bidding up common date junk silver coins and bars 25% over spot?  Name me one place in the world where it is that expensive for APMEX or others to ship to?

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:32 | 3082374 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

Those ebay prices are like weekly option plays where niggas got caught over bidding when suddenly spot prices fall..   you can't really lower your offer once your the high bidder... you have to eat it... but any way looks like GLD wants 135ish.. not to say that phyz has to get there.. not sure but all in a longer term bull market.  Those of you that are over levered or can't see past the next week good luck...

http://fiatflaws.blogspot.com/

 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:35 | 3082437 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

If you use Bid Robot you can put your high bid on and if you change your mind you can take it off or reduce it and nobody ever knows. 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:47 | 3082471 Pareto
Pareto's picture

$25 - $35 silver; $1500 - $1700 gold; who cares.  its like FB fluctuating between $24 and $29, or, WTIC between $85 and $100.  those that can buy more , will.  its an opportunity for many, but, should not be a surprise to most.  its a currency hedge for me.  and if the price of either goes to zero, well then its a world you really don't want to be around in anyhow.  By the way, i think Ebay, rather than spot is what you want to watch.  cheers 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:20 | 3082382 Platinum_Investor
Platinum_Investor's picture

The common folk trusts Ebay.  They don't know how to find a reputable bullion seller so they buy where they know and trust.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 18:03 | 3084261 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Why are you or anyone else complaining about premiums on Ebay? WHO CARES. No one is forcing you or anyone else to buy PMs on Ebay.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:03 | 3082283 Stuart
Stuart's picture

Rationalize it all you want,  the price is still down.  This will continue 'til perpetuity until the miners grow a set of balls and refuse to sell at these paper bullied prices.   Shareholders need to throttle the necks of management at the miners and demand they sell only what they need to cover costs and stockpile the rest, refusing to sell less than '00s above these manipulated spot prices.  

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:06 | 3082302 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 Rationalize it all you want

 

To the tune of about 20 trillion.....and counting.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:15 | 3082354 malikai
malikai's picture

Some people might consider such "hoarding" "unfair" and respond inappropriately.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:28 | 3082408 caconhma
caconhma's picture

Stuart,

You are 100% right. These blatant gold price manipulations could not take place without gold-mining companies full and actively participation. They are playing this game and deliberately destroying regular shareholders values and their investments.

These gold-mining companies will end up by their assets being nationalized in many socialist-controlled countries.

 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:34 | 3082432 chdwlch1
chdwlch1's picture

Have you considered that the owners of the mining firms are also the owners of the banks and the exchanges?  I don't think that's the case with the juniors, but Rio Tinto, I believe, is controlled by the Rothschilds....

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:19 | 3082573 viahj
viahj's picture

so that's who fucked over David99, the Rothchilds....no wonder he went into repetitve posting the other day. 

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 10:43 | 3082458 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

Oh, right, I get it, it's OK if the miners manipulate the market by withholding supplies. But it's not OK if the CBs manipulate the market by selling to force the price down. Right, I get it. We're not talking any sort of morality here, just naked self-interest.

BTW all prices fluctuate for all commodities all the time. Don't like it? Stop participating. Anyway, I agree with the other comments, I call this end of year tape painting.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:00 | 3082524 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Tape painting? That's what you call this? Seriously? 

Naked self interest? LOL. What happens when the mines go down (bankrupt) and there are massive shortages?

You know the cost for silver producers is close to $30 an ounce now? Gold is around $1200-1300.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 16:32 | 3084007 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

Bay of Pigs - I have read your posts for nearly 5 years, first on Mish, then here. I rate you as a genuine honest commenter. So I am actually on your side. Perhaps "tape painting" is the wrong way to express my thoughts. What I mean is that I think the POG is being suppressed with the objective that the price of gold is either down or unch over the calendar year 2012. I don't agree with it, but that is what I think is happening. I hate hypocrosy and the poster I was criticising seemed to be advocating manipulation of the POG (upwards) by the miners. I do not think that manipulation upwards is moral, and manipulation downwards is immoral. I vote for free markets and true price discovery. To answer your questipon, if the mines go down (bankrupt) because the POG has been manipulated downwards then  the POG will tend to rise, unless it is suppressed by the CBs. But that answer doesn't invalidate my hypothesis. I think the tape is being painted. I think the POG is being artificially suppressed. I think that is a bad thing, not because I think the POG should be higher or lower than it actually is, but because I hate manipulation of supposedly free markets. I hate this because I believe in the dicta of Adam Smith. I think that the proper function of a marketplace is price discovery, so that correct signals are sent to producers and consumers. What I absolutely hate and detest about the world I am living in is that marketplaces are no longer capable of fulfilling their proper function and the reason for this is that they are being manipulated. We will all suffer from the consequences. In a way, this is Tyler's original thesis, and it is right. My post referred to the hypocrisy of favouring manipulation in one direction (POG manipulated upwards) in response to the evident manipulation downwards. What I say is that all manipulation is wrong. It's immoral and it destroys the proper function of marketplaces.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 11:17 | 3082556 Anasteus
Anasteus's picture

For me, the situation looks quite transparent and logical and it has a lot to do with psychological perception of PMs. The Fed et al have noticed the longer-term increasing interest in the metals supported by 11 years of profitability in a row. Gold and silver are gradually gaining back their almost lost status of sound money/safe haven among bigger number of investors and even ordinary people. Since the inflation prospects remain unchanged and, in fact, are boosted it is necessary to smash the sentiment towards the metals and beat down the growing monetary status perception as much as possible. This will certainly scare many investors to such an extent they'll be not able to reasonably comprise positive fundamentals into their analyses, at least for a while. I find it logical; if the Fed did nothing the popularity of PMs would frighteningly continue growing among even more people and, by constant delivery of (pro gold & silver) positive fundamentals, the prices would soon soar to the Moon. However, once smashed, it gives the Fed additional room for its lousy policy for certain period until the PMs recover again. I see it a pure psychological gimmick.

However, in my opinion, the Fed is walking on a very thin ice. Once investors don't get tricked by this cabaret, the effect may be gone sooner than expected.

Thu, 12/20/2012 - 12:15 | 3082865 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

+1 for the sensible, unemotional comment

meanwhile the other national banks are either on board with the FED, stay on the sidelines or are just taking those prices as a wonderful opportunity to stack some dozen tons more

it's a currency war, gentlefolk, choose your sides

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