Christmas Day Open Thread

Tyler Durden's picture




 

To some, such as those few whose daily net worth is still a function of the policy vehicle formerly known as the 'market', it is a merry Christmas (at least until such time as the recoupling between central planning and reality once again inevitably occurs). To others, such as the 50 million (by now) Americans on food stamps, and billions of others around the world living in conditions of poverty, it is not so merry. But no matter one's current state of one's mind, there is always hope that the future will bring better days: after all that is what reflective holidays such as today are all about. We too hope that there is hope, if at the same time realizing that ever more of the promise of the future is packaged away in chunks of debt and securitized in order to fund an unsustainable present. We open up this thread to readers to share their hopes and concerns about the present and the future.

But before we do, we wanted to share a brief blurb from the Mises Institute on the "The Christmas Truce of World War I"

The Christmas Truce, which occurred primarily between the British and German soldiers along the Western Front in December 1914, is an event the official histories of the "Great War" leave out, and the Orwellian historians hide from the public. Stanley Weintraub has broken through this barrier of silence and written a moving account of this significant event by compiling letters sent home from the front, as well as diaries of the soldiers involved. His book is entitled Silent Night: The Story of the World War I Christmas Truce. The book contains many pictures of the actual events showing the opposing forces mixing and celebrating together that first Christmas of the war. This remarkable story begins to unfold, according to Weintraub, on the morning of December 19, 1914:

"Lieutenant Geoffrey Heinekey, new to the 2nd Queen's Westminister Rifles, wrote to his mother, 'A most extraordinary thing happened. . . . Some Germans came out and held up their hands and began to take in some of their wounded and so we ourselves immediately got out of our trenches and began bringing in our wounded also. The Germans then beckoned to us and a lot of us went over and talked to them and they helped us to bury our dead. This lasted the whole morning and I talked to several of them and I must say they seemed extraordinarily fine men. . . . It seemed too ironical for words. There, the night before we had been having a terrific battle and the morning after, there we were smoking their cigarettes and they smoking ours." (p. 5)

Weintraub reports that the French and Belgians reacted differently to the war and with more emotion than the British in the beginning. The war was occurring on their land and "The French had lived in an atmosphere of revanche since 1870, when Alsace and Lorraine were seized by the Prussians" in a war declared by the French (p. 4). The British and German soldiers, however, saw little meaning in the war as to them, and, after all, the British King and the German Kaiser were both grandsons of Queen Victoria. Why should the Germans and British be at war, or hating each other, because a royal couple from Austria were killed by an assassin while they were visiting in Serbia? However, since August when the war started, hundreds of thousands of soldiers had been killed, wounded or missing by December 1914 (p. xvi).

It is estimated that over eighty thousand young Germans had gone to England before the war to be employed in such jobs as waiters, cooks, and cab drivers and many spoke English very well. It appears that the Germans were the instigators of this move towards a truce. So much interchange had occurred across the lines by the time that Christmas Eve approached that Brigadier General G.T. Forrestier-Walker issued a directive forbidding fraternization:

"For it discourages initiative in commanders, and destroys offensive spirit in all ranks. . . . Friendly intercourse with the enemy, unofficial armistices and exchange of tobacco and other comforts, however tempting and occasionally amusing they may be, are absolutely prohibited." (p. 6–7)

Later strict orders were issued that any fraternization would result in a court-martial. Most of the seasoned German soldiers had been sent to the Russian front while the youthful and somewhat untrained Germans, who were recruited first, or quickly volunteered, were sent to the Western Front at the beginning of the war. Likewise, in England young men rushed to join in the war for the personal glory they thought they might achieve and many were afraid the war might end before they could get to the front. They had no idea this war would become one of attrition and conscription or that it would set the trend for the whole 20th century, the bloodiest in history which became known as the War and Welfare Century.

As night fell on Christmas Eve the British soldiers noticed the Germans putting up small Christmas trees along with candles at the top of their trenches and many began to shout in English "We no shoot if you no shoot"(p. 25). The firing stopped along the many miles of the trenches and the British began to notice that the Germans were coming out of the trenches toward the British who responded by coming out to meet them. They mixed and mingled in No Man's Land and soon began to exchange chocolates for cigars and various newspaper accounts of the war which contained the propaganda from their respective homelands. Many of the officers on each side attempted to prevent the event from occurring but the soldiers ignored the risk of a court-martial or of being shot.

Some of the meetings reported in diaries were between Anglo-Saxons and German Saxons and the Germans joked that they should join together and fight the Prussians. The massive amount of fraternization, or maybe just the Christmas spirit, deterred the officers from taking action and many of them began to go out into No Man's Land and exchange Christmas greetings with their opposing officers. Each side helped bury their dead and remove the wounded so that by Christmas morning there was a large open area about as wide as the size of two football fields separating the opposing trenches. The soldiers emerged again on Christmas morning and began singing Christmas carols, especially "Silent Night." They recited the 23rd Psalm together and played soccer and football. Again, Christmas gifts were exchanged and meals were prepared openly and attended by the opposing forces. Weintraub quotes one soldier's observation of the event: "Never . . . was I so keenly aware of the insanity of war" (p. 33).

The first official British history of the war came out in 1926 which indicated that the Christmas Truce was a very insignificant matter with only a few people involved. However, Weintraub states:

"During a House of Commons debate on March 31, 1930, Sir H. Kinglsey Wood, a Cabinet Minister during the next war, and a Major 'In the front trenches' at Christmas 1914, recalled that he 'took part in what was well known at the time as a truce. We went over in front of the trenches and shook hands with many of our German enemies. A great number of people [now] think we did something that was degrading.' Refusing to presume that, he went on, 'The fact is that we did it, and I then came to the conclusion that I have held very firmly ever since, that if we had been left to ourselves there would never have been another shot fired. For a fortnight the truce went on. We were on the most friendly terms, and it was only the fact that we were being controlled by others that made it necessary for us to start trying to shoot one another again.' He blamed the resumption of the war on 'the grip of the political system which was bad, and I and others who were there at the time determined there and then never to rest. . . . Until we had seen whether we could change it.' But they could not." (p. 169–70)

Beginning with the French Revolution, one of the main ideas coming out of the 19th century, which became dominant at the beginning of the 20th century, was nationalism with unrestrained democracy. In contrast, the ideas which led to the American Revolution were those of a federation of sovereign states joined together under the Constitution which severely limited and separated the powers of the national or central government in order to protect individual liberty. National democracy was restrained by a Bill of Rights. These ideas came into direct conflict with the beginning of the American War Between the States out of which nationalism emerged victorious. A principal idea of nationalism was that the individual owed a duty of self-sacrifice to "The Greater Good" of his nation and that the noblest act a person could do was to give his life for his country during a war, which would, in turn, bring him immortal fame.

Two soldiers, one British and one German, both experienced the horrors of the trench warfare in the Great War and both wrote moving accounts which challenged the idea of the glory of a sacrifice of the individual to the nation in an unnecessary or unjust war. The British soldier, Wilfred Owen, wrote a famous poem before he was killed in the trenches seven days before the Armistice was signed on November 11, 1918. He tells of the horror of the gas warfare which killed many in the trenches and ends with the following lines:

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues —
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.[1]

The German soldier was Erich M. Remarque who wrote one of the best anti-war novels of all time, entitled All Quiet On The Western Front, which was later made into an American movie that won the 1930 Academy Award for Best Picture. He also attacked the idea of the nobility of dying for your country in a war and he describes the suffering in the trenches:

"We see men living with their skulls blown open; We see soldiers run with their two feet cut off; They stagger on their splintered stumps into the next shell-hole; A lance corporal crawls a mile and half on his hands dragging his smashed knee after him; Another goes to the dressing station and over his clasped hands bulge his intestines; We see men without mouths, without jaws, without faces; We find one man who has held the artery of his arm in his teeth for two hours in order not to bleed to death."

I would imagine that the Christmas Truce probably inspired the English novelist and poet, Thomas Hardy, to write a poem about World War I entitled "The Man He Killed," which reads as follows:

Had he and I but met
By some old ancient inn,
We should have sat us down to wet
Right many a nipperkin!

But ranged as infantry,
And staring face to face,
I shot at him as he at me,
And killed him in his place.

I shot him dead because —
Because he was my foe,
Just so: my foe of course he was;
That's clear enough; although

He thought he'd 'list, perhaps,
Off-hand like — just as I —
Was out of work — had sold his traps —
No other reason why.

Yes, quaint and curious war is!
You shoot a fellow down
You'd treat if met where any bar is,
Or help to half-a-crown.

The last chapter of Weintraub's book is entitled "What If — ?" This is counterfactual history at its best and he sets out what he believes the rest of the 20th century would have been like if the soldiers had been able to cause the Christmas Truce of 1914 to stop the war at that point. Like many other historians, he believes that with an early end of the war in December of 1914, there probably would have been no Russian Revolution, no Communism, no Lenin, and no Stalin. Furthermore, there would have been no vicious peace imposed on Germany by the Versailles Treaty, and therefore, no Hitler, no Nazism and no World War II. With the early truce there would have been no entry of America into the European War and America might have had a chance to remain, or return, to being a Republic rather than moving toward World War II, the "Cold" War (Korea and Vietnam), and our present status as the world bully.

Weintraub states that:

". . . Franklin D. Roosevelt, only an obscure assistant secretary of the navy — of a fleet going nowhere militarily — would have returned to a boring law practice, and never have been the losing but attractive vice presidential candidate in 1920, a role earned by his war visibility. Wilson, who would not be campaigning for reelection in 1916 on a platform that he kept America out of war, would have lost (he only won narrowly) to a powerful new Republican president, Charles Evans Hughes. . . ." (p. 167)

He also suggests another result of the early peace:

"Germany in peace rather than war would have become the dominant nation in Europe, possibly in the world, competitor to a more slowly awakening America, and to an increasingly ambitious and militant Japan. No Wilsonian League of Nations would have emerged. . . . Yet, a relatively benign, German-led, Commonwealth of Europe might have developed decades earlier than the European Community under leaders not destroyed in the war or its aftermath." (p. 167)

Many leaders of the British Empire saw the new nationalistic Germany (since 1870–71) as a threat to their world trade, especially with Germany's new navy. The idea that economics played a major role in bringing on the war was confirmed by President Woodrow Wilson after the war in a speech wherein he gave his assessment of the real cause of the war. He was campaigning in St. Louis, Missouri in September of 1919 trying to get the US Senate to approve the Versailles Treaty and he stated:

"Why, my fellow-citizens, is there [anyone] here who does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry? . . . This war, in its inception, was a commercial and industrial war. It was not a political war."

   

The great economist, Ludwig von Mises, advocated a separation of the economy from the government as one important solution to war so that business interests could not get government assistance in foreign or domestic markets:

Durable peace is only possible under perfect capitalism, hitherto never and nowhere completely tried or achieved. In such a Jeffersonian world of unhampered market economy the scope of government activities is limited to the protection of the lives, health, and property of individuals against violence or fraudulent aggression. . . .

 

All the oratory of the advocates of government omnipotence cannot annul the fact that there is but one system that makes for durable peace: A free market economy. Government control leads to economic nationalism and thus results in conflict.[2]

Weintraub alludes to a play by William Douglas Home entitled A Christmas Truce wherein characters representing British and German soldiers have just finished a soccer game in No Man's Land on Christmas day and are engaged in a conversation which very well could represent the feelings of the soldiers on that day. The German lieutenant concedes the impossibility of the war ending as the soccer game had just done, with no bad consequences — "Because the Kaiser and the generals and the politicians in my country order us that we fight."

"So do ours," agrees Andrew Wilson (the British soldier).

"Then what can we do?"

"The answer's 'nothing.' But if we do nothing . . . like we're doing now, and go on doing it, there'll be nothing they can do but send us home."

"Or shoot us." (p. 110)

   
   

The Great War killed over ten million soldiers and Weintraub states, "Following the final Armistice came an imposed peace in 1919 that created new instabilities ensuring another war," (p. 174). This next war killed more than fifty million people, over half of whom were civilians. Weintruab writes:

"To many, the end of the war and the failure of the peace would validate the Christmas cease-fire as the only meaningful episode in the apocalypse. It belied the bellicose slogans and suggested that the men fighting and often dying were, as usual, proxies for governments and issues that had little to do with their everyday lives. A candle lit in the darkness of Flanders, the truce flickered briefly and survives only in memoirs, letters, song, drama and story." (p. xvi)

He concludes his remarkable book with the following:

"A celebration of the human spirit, the Christmas Truce remains a moving manifestation of the absurdities of war. A very minor Scottish poet of Great War vintage, Frederick Niven, may have got it right in his 'A Carol from Flanders,' which closed,

O ye who read this truthful rime From Flanders, kneel and say:
God speed the time when every day
Shall be as Christmas Day.
(p. 175)

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Tue, 12/25/2012 - 13:53 | 3094849 Silver Bug
Silver Bug's picture

Merry Christmas Zero Hedgers! Heres to another year of successful stacking before it all falls apart!

 

http://ericsprott.blogspot.ca/

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 14:07 | 3094884 Alpo for Granny
Alpo for Granny's picture

Merry Christmas Tylers and fellow ZH'ers. Thanks for the education and humor. Hoping you have a year filled with peace, prosperity, love, and health.

Do not let either the politicians or the medical authorities mislead you. Find out what the facts are and make your own decisions on how to live a happy life and work for a better world. -Linus Pauling

 

 

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 14:46 | 3094959 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Hey... It's Christmas!...

~~~

Does anyone know if Congress passed any groovy new laws in the dead of night last night?... You know ~ while I was asleep & drunk off of spiked eggnog...

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 15:00 | 3094982 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Lemme guess, you woke up with a sore ass and a bad taste in your mouth..............

 

 

 

Merry Christmas

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 15:27 | 3095045 OutLookingIn
OutLookingIn's picture

Christmas.

That favorite time of year when...

Unpopular legislation is passed in Washington by a tiny majority, forcing down the the throats of the public, whether they like or not!  

Christmas break 1913, those few putrid and corrupt so-called "peoples representatives" passed the central bank bill, paving the way for the private-for-profit federal reserve bank to start stealing from the public purse.  

Now 99 years later and the US dollar has lost 98% of it's value. Not much left to steal. Cupboard is bare!

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 15:51 | 3095077 centerline
centerline's picture

They want the cupboard too.

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 16:10 | 3095100 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

And the floor that it lies on.

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 18:34 | 3095305 fuu
fuu's picture

Happy holidays bitchez.

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 21:20 | 3095496 NewThor
NewThor's picture

You should watch my video about quitting smoking on Christmas Eve.

 

It is funny?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va1HP0McIxQ

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 23:52 | 3095657 Thomas
Thomas's picture

You crazy posters at Zero Hedge are the best. Merry Christmas.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 03:59 | 3095791 Max in St Moritz
Max in St Moritz's picture

 

 

Typical Republican wingnuts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSQeqk5YzbM

 

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 04:09 | 3095796 economics9698
economics9698's picture

I went to SeaWorld and on Christmas Eve and was amazed at all the Muslims there.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 07:20 | 3095857 clymer
clymer's picture

This was an excellent read, Tyler. Thank you.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 08:36 | 3095868 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

thanks for the threads and posts on ZH..for those who seek every good post has value and the gray cells respond.

the world is designed to never provide a perfect platform for any man made object. those of steel or of paper.

.gov is part of our natural world and is imperfect and manipulated by the powerful and wealthy (as it ever was across mans history)

the solitary man even if  a freeman can never impose perfection on the world. one can impose some perfection within.

the smaller the unit the more chance we have to design something closer to perfection..charity begins at home.

After reading ZH  I have changed, one example:  Lincoln (to me) is now the first modern era president, a truly evil man, to impose the all powerful central gov will on these united states of america. (this fact shocked me as I saw the evil he created and yet never understood) looking back at the numbers of  dead, and wounded in that  war of brothers ,it still is amazing how many see him as a hero and noble) ..some still see him  freeing slaves, I now see him as making every citizen a slave. ZH made me reevaluate many long held ideas now thrown away. that was one.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 00:17 | 3095670 Intoxicologist
Intoxicologist's picture

Do what I do, Thor.  I get a one-pond bag of pipe tobacco (less chemicals, less taxes) and roll my own.  It works out to about $1.20 a pack.  Then, make your own toothpaste with coconut oil, baking soda, and a few other select ingredients.  Your teeth will look nice. 

You won't need to load up on Little Debbies, have to buy new clothes (because your old ones don't fit), or apologize for any angry outbursts.

It's all good.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 00:30 | 3095680 Ookspay
Ookspay's picture

+1 Hilarious video Thor, been there done that.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 08:11 | 3095861 new game
new game's picture

I quit thanksgiving-unfuckingbelievable as 56 and 40 years smoking and a serious runner.

like oil and water, but i did it and now day 34 and still the ju-ju I want ONe mutha fucker!-NOW.

but i'd say i will do it as in last 40 years quite for 5 years SO I KNOW I CAN DO IT...

but yea for first 2 weeks all the crazy moods and even body rushes and major confussion associated with detoxing some nasty shit from the bod.

Day one or two is easy, is was always 4-5 when i said fuckit and rationalized a nifty reason (kinda like printing) and went and bought a pack of american spirits and felt better-ya fucking right.

hey thanks you helped my stay quite for another day-m x to all here

charlieb

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 21:21 | 3095497 pauhana
pauhana's picture

Now tht we've fixed health care and the populace has given Obama a clear mandate, how about we tackle cold fusion?  Just a few trillion dollars for "infrastructure" given to crony capitalists and we should get that problem fixed.  Worked great for "green" energy, didn't it?   sarc/on

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 23:16 | 3095621 Ruth
Ruth's picture

To my friends and foe at Zerohedge, Merry Christmas

and Be Blessed!  You too Fuu!

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 10:07 | 3095985 fuu
fuu's picture

RUTH!

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 16:11 | 3095101 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

Some Christmas Observations from my visit to flyover country (and general musings):

- Shooting Skeet (Real Guns) is a sport open to freshman in the local high school, and marksmanship is a source of pride for young and old.

- Slate magazine is run by people who do not share the values our country is founded upon.

- Children learn to shoot guns in the single digits and there have been no school shootings around here...ever.

- Children up here show respect to their peers, siblings, and elders.  Hurt feelings and bad attitudes come but are quicky tempered, sometimes just by a stern look alone.

- It seems apparent to me that the NY Libs (Led by their clueless economist PK of course) have fucked up their society so much with the disease they spread to their people they somehow feel that the rest of the country would be better off following in their footsteps.  (Or perhaps it is simply jealousy that is getting to them, which better explains their want for 'revenge').

- It is remarkable to me that when I was a kid we played cowboys and indians using realistic cap guns, and had no negative effects or murderous actions later on in life, yet many believe the violence we witness stems from video games.

- Godless society is in fact the reason things have gotten so bad.  Most don't want to hear this.  That is because they do not understand things that takes decades or even generations to play out.  The frame of reference they see consists of last week or last year, and they have never been wrong in the past. 

- NY liberals need to move to France, Hollande needs their $$ contributions, and the society they seek is already built over there.

My connections is shaky, ill try to add more later.

P.S. the 13 year old who shoots skeet in school has over 10k in the bank from raising livestock that his daddy made sure he earned on his own two feet.  He looks after his three little sisters like a shepard, and does not have to be asked to do so.

 

Merry Christmas to all, may peace be with you.  Off to go shoot some of those evil evil guns :)

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 17:24 | 3095221 Karlus
Karlus's picture

Unfortunately, these liberals want to create a new utopia and think they know ho to progress their change. Buying votes in a welfare state leads to poison for all. Class warfare leads to unproductive people and conflict. Degrading the Constitution rolls back the very environment that made this place the center of the world.

War is coming. I am saddened by this but also know that something as special as this country has to be defended. This requires sacrifice and pain, it appears there is no reasoning or other way.

I can only hope that it is swift and terrible enough that these grass eaters lay down, before they destroy everyone including themselves.

I sometimes wonder if the people that are now "Americans" are even worth saving....

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 01:20 | 3095707 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

clearly the people that are now americans are not worth saving (as they are, many of them, grass eaters).

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 02:49 | 3095748 SanOvaBeach
SanOvaBeach's picture

Why do zh'ers hate Obama so much?

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 03:10 | 3095751 Lore
Lore's picture

It's not Obama specifically. There are groups, movements and forces darker and more powerful than any particular exoteric political affiliation or figurehead. Keep reading & asking questions. An inquiring mind is the most precious thing in the world. Merry Christmas, and best to you for 2013.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 10:57 | 3096084 jayman21
jayman21's picture

Being able to identify a psychopath or sociopath is also helpful.  And when you do, they need to be shunned.  The only joy for them is to control things.  Free people really piss them off like Obama.

 

Free people do not try to control other people.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:52 | 3096898 SanOvaBeach
SanOvaBeach's picture

Rose?

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 17:31 | 3095230 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Move to France you liberal fuckers.  Farmers in ____ have it all figured out and we should all have a cow and learn to shoot skeet and the nation's problems would be solved.  What a crock.  Ironically, it is exactly your "us and them", "right and wrong", "leave my country if you don't agree with me" mentality that is what the oligarchs use to control us.  If you were a fish, you would be in the boat already.  

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 19:30 | 3095256 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Rock on Brutha!

 Let me get this straight. People are junking me because I'm sticking up for a person that is showing his repect of freedom?

  I'm not saying things are perfect, but you people need to travel some.

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 21:31 | 3095509 nmewn
nmewn's picture

LTER has no respect for freedom or he wouldn't advocate for government intervention and regulation (at just about every level) so strenuously.

He doesn't understand the corrupting influence of power...to that point, the latest pages from the Federal Register...391 NEW & IMPROVED! pages this month alone!, aren't we all just breathless with anticipation in wading through this! ;-)

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/search?conditions%5Bpublication_date%5D%5Bis%5D=12%2F26%2F2012&conditions%5Btype%5D=NOTICE

Besides, with a top tax rate of 75% (really 90%, but whatever) in France it'll be a certifiable basket case of writhing, wiggling leeches attempting to suck the life out of each other within six months.

Let the good times roll!!!

(No, I didn't junk you, geesh)

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 21:56 | 3095536 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Filtering the Fodder / nmewn. I'm always in the background. You are a good Man/

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:54 | 3095595 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Sawright, fresh fish ;-)

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:01 | 3095540 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

nmewn -- funny, but I consistently advocate for smaller government, yet your consistent response to me is to claim otherwise and then knock down your tired strawman.   It is so much easier to argue ideology than actual ideas.   So when I argue (correctly) that a representative government is better than any alternative, you can only see that as a binary argument in favor of huge bloated government.  Sad.

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:23 | 3095562 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Gentlemen, we have obviously Grown Significantly/   Having both of your "opinions", is truly a gift. I'm in your Thanks/

  First of all, I think you are in general Agreement/

 Eg;  Smaller Government... Advocates against (strawmen) Real constituents. Both of you Gentlemen are well versed in businees and law/ 

  Last, but not least/ You gentlemen love to argue IDEAS!   For that I'm eternally grateful.>   Foreward Gentlemen

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 23:38 | 3095642 Dr Benway
Dr Benway's picture

Well put! I think you are exactly right, there is much more that unites us than separates us here at ZH. Sometimes this may get forgotten in heated discussions. Merry Xmas, and thanks for all the intelligent discussion, humor and information!

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:51 | 3095591 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Arguing in defense of, "You didn't build that!" is not the promotion of, smaller government.

"So when I argue (correctly) that a representative government is better than any alternative, you can only see that as a binary argument in favor of huge bloated government. Sad."

So when the "representatives" are told by the People to tax in order to spread the wealth more evenly regardless of the majorities inputs of labor to that wealth, you will say...what, exactly?

There's not much risk of capital or sweat in doing nothing but voting...but it seems a whole lot more profitable per unit of exertion.

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 23:34 | 3095638 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

nmewn, I'm a regular (pop off top).  You know what I say is true/ Thats not the point!

 

    In all of my 46 years of life, ( have never seen 2 more stubborn Men)!  You two men share the same values( Family>will to grow)  Both of you are ( Intelligent beyond belief)  [ Oppenheimer smart]...

  Make Peace'


  U TWO Men had better get it sorted out!

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 07:00 | 3095850 nmewn
nmewn's picture

We're in the process of sorting it out now ;-)

The only thing I respect about LTER is he is very uncomfortable lying, so as a rule, he doesn't (as opposed to others). Walk him through the ten planks of the Communist Manifesto...it'll be a real eye opener for you.

Take your pick of these and just ask him...

http://www.laissez-fairerepublic.com/TenPlanks.html

He and I do not share the same values regarding governance, at all.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 00:06 | 3095665 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

+1 to both of you, LTER and YC. I actually dont get why LTER gets so many down arrows, he's on our side just has a different take on it. We cant be sheep also...

Io Saturnalia!

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 12:55 | 3096426 SanOvaBeach
SanOvaBeach's picture

hey letthemeatrand,

I'm really happy for yea!  Wear you hate on your sleeve.  Happy Holidays and Happy New Year................

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 18:48 | 3095311 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Wonderful message MuppetPimp.

Frankly, the most peaceful solution is to finaly break up the nonsense that is the USSA.

States can secede and folks can join which ever camp that pleases them.  No Red vs Blue, fly over meme's.  I can see a gun/smoke free statist utopia in sunny California or even New York for that matter. An AR15 in every home in lone star State of Texas and Florida for that matter.  Even a free to smoke wherever you please Nevada could emerge?

Folks will be be able to make their own decisions and move to where they feel the more in tune with whatever values they deem appropriate.  No passports either folks are free to move wherever they feel most comfortable. Hell NY could even sign up to be part of the UN NWO!

Folks like LTER will hopefully find their paradise and so will the likes of Freddie - even Crockett!

Seems so sensible this optimistic thesis it has not fuckin' chance in hell.

BALKANISE BITCHES ... there's a world of hurt coming our way!

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 19:31 | 3095375 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Works for me! Bring on the zombies!

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 20:18 | 3095427 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

LOL!!!

Merry Xmas Dude... some helpful tips for ya - not that you need it ;)

1. Cardio

2. The Double Tap

3. Beware of Bathrooms

4. Wear Seat Belts

5. No Attachments

6. The “Skillet”

7. Travel Light

8. Get a Kick Ass Partner

9. With your Bare Hands

10. Don’t Swing Low

11. Use Your Foot

12. Bounty Paper Towels

13. Shake it Off

14. Always carry a change of underwear

15. Bowling Ball

16. Opportunity Knocks

17. Don’t be a hero (later crossed out to be a hero)

18. Limber Up

19. Break it Up

20. It’s a marathon, not a sprint, unless it’s a sprint, then sprint

21. Avoid Strip Clubs

22. When in doubt Know your way out

23. Zipplock

24. Use your thumbs

25. Shoot First

26. A little sun screen never hurt anybody

27. Incoming!

28. Double-Knot your Shoes

29. The Buddy System

30. Pack your stain stick

31. Check the back seat

32. Enjoy the little things

33. Swiss army Knife

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 21:59 | 3095538 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Rogue Trooper  TSA secondary inspector?

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:18 | 3095559 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Sheeesh harsh one I will not sleep well tonight... I know one thing I would be shittin' myself to vist the USofA.  At least when you travel in "Communist" China it appears much less threatening and you don't feel that at any moment you will be 'violated' by the security presence and treated to the TSA 'secondary' screening.  They even smile at ya and say welcome to China!

China Domestic Airlines Travell TIP: don't take an expensive lighter has you cannot take them on the airplane.  You need to drop them in a clear box on the way through.  On the way out you can pick up any lighter out of the box and you can light up outside the terminal. Works like clockwork every time unless - you had a gold dunhill.

BTW Yen are you in Glorious Ununited States of Amerika?

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:26 | 3095567 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Keeping it real. I Won't sleep/ We F/X guys never sleep.  Happy New Year, and I got your point ;-)

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:12 | 3095546 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"Even a free to smoke wherever you please Nevada could emerge [when states cecede]?"

It's a fucking Nevada law, not a federal law that bans smoking in Nevada businesses.  http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/nov/02/bilbos/.

But I'm sure your complete objectively provable absence of factual accuracy will in no way change your complete faith in the accuracy of your world view.

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:26 | 3095566 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Take it easy LTER.  Sure I do't agree with all your post and positions.  But hey your bloody consistent in your views and provide a welcomed counter argument on this site.  Otherwise ZH will become one big 'Group Consensus Wank Forum' - so keep it coming.

Merry xmas to you and your family and see you next year - that was genuine no sarc, etc.

PS I do get the difference betwenn Fed and State Law even if the USA is not MY country of residence.  However, the ways things are heading the Pres may well overrule State law in any case.  Have they not in the past?

 

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:42 | 3095581 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Merry Christmas to you as well.  If there is one thing we need more of, it is people who can have a heated argument followed by a friendly drink.  Ultimately, we're all on the same team.   I'll raise my glass.

Tue, 12/25/2012 - 22:59 | 3095605 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Cheers to that  - it's very hot downunder so a nice cold beer is in order!

That's one thng that is great about this place.  For what it's worth you get too read many arguments and my rule is never to become so entrenched that you can never keep your mind open.  My bottom line is liberty and freedom but I do not wish to end up subscribing to another cult.  That was the aspect of Ayn Rand I was never comfortable with in the 90's when I started reading the so called objectivist preachers.  So it's a fine line. With the 2nd amemdment  - all I have seen for gun rights/the right to self defence in the rest of the world is these being slowly eroded (death by 1,000 cuts) and for that I fear for all of us.

Keep it real in 2013 LTER  - I'm confident you will!

 

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