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On The New Definition Of "Rich", A $620 Billion Tax Hike Offset By $15 Billion In Spending Cuts, And Much More

Tyler Durden's picture


We greet the new year with an America that has a Fiscal Cliff deal. Actually no, it doesn't - not even close. What it does have is an agreement, so far only at the Senate level which voted a little after 2 AM eastern in an 89-8 vote (Nays from Democrats Bennet, Cardin, Harkin, and Republicans - Lee, Paul, Grassley, Rubio  and Shelby), to delay the all-important spending side of the Fiscal Cliff "deal" which "can is kicked" in the form of a 60 day extension to the sequester, to be taken up "eventually", but hopefully not on day 59 at the 11th hour, the same as fate of the all important US debt ceiling, which remains in limbo, and which now effectively prohibits America from incurring any new gross debt as the $16.4 trillion debt ceiling was breached yesterday. In other words, America's primary deficit sourcing mechanism is now put on hiatus, and all new net debt will come at the expense of defunding various government retirement funds as the 60 day countdown to the real showdown begins: the debt ceiling, as well as the resolution of the spending side of the Fiscal Cliff deal.

What did happen last night was merely the legislating of the inevitable tax hike on the 1%, which was assured the night Obama won the presidential election, something not even the most rabid Norquist pledge signatories had hope of avoiding. This was the first income tax hike in nearly two decades. A tax hike which, regardless of how it is spun, will result in a drag in consumption. It was also the brand new definition of rich, with the "$250,000" income threshold now left in the dust, and "$400,000 for individuals ($450,000 for joint filers)" taking its place. If you make more than that, congratulations: you are now "rich".  You will also be hated for being part of the 1%. and be the target in the ongoing class war.

Who knew that "New Normal" would also bring us the "New Rich" definition.

Ironically, not even the tax hike component of the deal was fully worked out, as it still remains unclear just what the new tax brackets and what the tax increases for the much maligned 1% will be.

What is generally known is that the Senate bill boils down to the following: $620 billion in tax hikes over the next decade offset by $15 billion in spending cuts now. Hardly "fair and balanced." Anyone who, therefore, thinks this bill is a slam dunk in the House is a brave gambling man.

The said, the "good news" is that 99% of Americans will see no change in their taxes, as was the idea all along. And the evil 1% will get their just deserts, which was the whole purpose of this relentless soap opera

The bad news is that starting today millions of wage earners, will see a smaller paycheck as a result of the lapse in the 2% payroll-tax cut, enacted in 2010, which lowered the employee portion of the Social Security tax from 6.2% to 4.2%. The direct cost of the payroll tax expiration will be $125 billion per year, or nearly a full percentage point of GDP, and in practical terms, an individual earnings the maximum cap of $113,700 (for 2013), will see their paycheck drop by $200/month.

That's just the beginning. The WSJ details the various other implications of the expiration of the payroll tax cut:

It will take up to four weeks after a bill is passed for many workers to know exactly what their 2013 take-home pay will be, according to Michael O'Toole, an official of the American Payroll Association, a group of 21,000 payroll managers.


Just before midnight, the Internal Revenue Service issued new withholding tables for 2013 reflecting the expiration of the 2001-3 tax cuts and the two-percentage point Social Security tax cut. But the IRS noted that the tables might change given pending legislation.


The 2013 tax-filing season also is likely to be disrupted by Washington's wrangling on deadline. In November, acting Internal Revenue Service Commissioner Steve Miller warned that the filing season would be delayed by several weeks. Normally the season opens in mid-January, but this year it may be delayed till mid-February or later.


As a result, many filers won't be able to receive tax refunds as early as they normally do. "Congress's delays have pushed back the repayment of interest-free loans to the government for millions of taxpayers," said Lawrence Gibbs, a former IRS Commissioner now with the Miller & Chevalier law firm in Washington. The average refund is approaching $3,000, according to IRS data.

So very much still remains unknown. Here is what is known on the tax side of the "deal":

Income-tax rates. The top rate on ordinary income such as wages for joint filers earning more than $450,000 ($400,000 for single filers) would rise to 39.6%. Current law would be permanently extended for income earned below that level. Left unclear is whether the $450,000/$400,000 threshold refers to adjusted gross income (AGI) or taxable income. AGI doesn't include subtractions for itemized deductions, while taxable income does.


The individual income tax is the government's biggest single source of revenue, supplying nearly half the total.


Investment tax rates. For joint filers with income above $450,000 ($400,000 single), the top rate on long-term capital gains and dividends would rise to 20% from 15%. For taxpayers earning less than the thresholds, there would be a permanent 15% top rate on long-term capital gains and dividends, except perhaps for the lowest-bracket taxpayers, who currently have a zero rate.


Alternative minimum tax. The bill permanently and retroactively adjusts the alternative minimum tax to stop it enveloping more taxpayers than designed. The current fix expired at the beginning of 2012.


PEP and Pease provisions. The deal restores and makes permanent two backdoor tax increases for joint filers with incomes above $300,000 ($250,000 for singles).


When it was last in effect, the Personal Exemption Phaseout reduced or eliminated the value of personal exemptions for taxpayers earning more than the income threshold. The Pease provision—named after the late Rep. Donald Pease (D., Ohio)—reduced itemized deductions for taxpayers above a certain threshold. The formula's net effect was to add a bit more than 1% to the top tax rate, says Mr. Williams of the Tax Policy Center, including the top rate on capital gains.


Estate and gift tax. The estate and gift tax exemption would remain $5 million or more per individual vs. the $3.5 million sought by President Obama. But the current 35% top tax rate on amounts above the exemption would increase to 40%.


Tax "extenders." This term refers to several provisions that lapsed either at the beginning or the end of 2012. They would be extended for varying periods, and provisions that expired in early 2012 would be extended retroactively. Among these provisions are deductions for $250 of teachers' classroom expenses; state sales taxes in lieu of state income taxes; tuition and related expenses; a conservation donation benefit; and the direct charitable contribution of up to $100,000 of IRA assets for people 70½ and older.


The deal would also extend for five years the American Opportunity Tax Credit; for many taxpayers this dollar-for-dollar credit is worth up to $2,500 and therefore the most valuable education benefit. And it would extend for five years the current versions of the Child Tax Credit and Earned Income Tax Credit, which are claimed by many lower-income workers making up to about $50,000.


Depreciation. A one-year extension of current "bonus" depreciation rules, which allow businesses to deduct up to 50% of the cost of a wide variety of property and equipment, excluding real estate. "This will be very helpful to a lagging economy," says Don Williamson, an accountant who also heads the Kogod Tax Center at American University.

In other words: congratulations America, you have a Fiscal Cliff deal. Oh sorry, no you don't. But it does make for even better political grandstanding and melodramatic theater.

And now, we look forward to late February, early March, when as we said all along, the real showdown will take place, one which the market will no longer be able to avoid.


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Tue, 01/01/2013 - 10:53 | 3111877 Boilermaker
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Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:05 | 3111898 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

This has been nothing but Kabuki Theatre. The appearance of an uncertain outcome during this farce, when in fact the politicians have worked together to determine the outcome beforehand.

This whole fiscal cliff fiasco has been a contrivance to further advance a false left/right paradigm. These so called lawmakers have basically decided not to decide. Kick the can down the rode again. They know the American people are more interested in watching Dancing with the American Idol starring Honey Boo Boo, and obviously know they can get away with fleecing the public

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:16 | 3111913 mikla
mikla's picture

This will destroy S-Corp (small business) tax-return-filers.

Note that I didn't say "decimate", because that implies a mere destruction of 10%.

Further note:  Tax rates (being played with here) and tax receipts (pretended to grow here, but that's quite unlikely) have absolutely nothing to do with government spending, the debt, and the fiscal cliff.

Punishing work is absolutely crazy, negative in every possible way for society and prosperity.  The income tax itself is batsh*t stupid.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:18 | 3111926 Cursive
Cursive's picture


How so?  I find the whole tax code odious, but how do these provisions target S-corp filers?  They could always revoke the S election, too.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:40 | 3111958 mikla
mikla's picture

Because S-corp includes the business profit/loss on the personal return (there is no filing for the business separately), a small-business owner receiving $50K in "income" (salary+ bonuses) would appear to *also* have received all of the profits from the business, even though the small-business-owner did not actually receive that money to buy yachts (that money is re-invested into the business, and not actually received as "income" to the owner; but it is considered income, so it is taxed).  

This is especially important/painful to any small-business that needs to build a "capital-reserve", since any "lines-of-credit" from banking institutions to small businesses are no longer reliable (cannot be gotten, nor trusted, because they are commonly being "withdrawn" by the bank without notice and for no reason).

Note that C-corp Google and Apple don't have this problem -- they can move the business income to ensure that it is not "received" (is not counted as "dividend" nor "profit"), and thus not "taxed".

Yes, many small businesses might be able to move from S-corp to C-corp, with restrictions, and expense (different and more costly rules now apply), but not retro-actively.

This is probably part of the intended effect.  The current government *hates* small business, because only "large" businesses hire lobbyists.  Large businesses are easier control, and to shake-down for cash.  (I'm not joking here.)

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:52 | 3112023 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

FORWARD, bitchez!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:15 | 3112089 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

If you are interested in looking through the actual bill which passed the Senate, here is the link.

Of particular interest is the extension of significant tax breaks for multinational corporations domiciled in the US.


The following link explains how this works in terms even I can understand.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:40 | 3112163 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

Will all "new" tax revenues be dedicated to paying down the deficit?

THAT is the problem/solution.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:52 | 3112191 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

It's all good.  I was born poor and I still have most of it left.   

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:00 | 3112202 mikla
mikla's picture

"Will all "new" tax revenues be dedicated to paying down the deficit?

THAT is the problem/solution."

This is a misunderstanding.

(1) Tax receipts will go down.  There won't be any "new" revenue (there will actually be less).

(2) For every "pretended-$1" in new "revenue" (which will likely not happen), there is $41 in new spending.  This permits the deficit to grow faster-than-ever.

(3) Understand "fungible".  Even if there is "net-increase-in-receipts" (there won't be), it won't be used to pay down the deficit.

(4) The deficit cannot be reduced.  It is mathematically impossible under all scenarios.  The reader will need to understand the concept of "exponential-math", and how "ponzi" works, and why the conclusion cannot be avoided under any scenario.

(5) The default has already occurred.  What remains is:

(a) accounting (there currently is none);

(b) explicit selection of winners-and-losers (e.g., we have a "command/fascist" economy);

(c) a step-function change in behavior by the public.

In short:  This bill doesn't matter, whether it passes or not.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:08 | 3112227 fattail
fattail's picture

(2) For every "pretended-$1" in new "revenue" (which will likely not happen), there is $41 in new spending. This permits the deficit to grow faster-than-ever.

Excellent...  Full speed ahead, default into the financial abyss.  I am tired of waiting, and watching these political half measures impede this ridiculous slow motion farce of a government and country from the desitiny it deserves.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:09 | 3112229 derek_vineyard
derek_vineyard's picture

a president would take this legislation and tear it up on live TV and demand a balanced budget

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:00 | 3112476 jumbo maverick
jumbo maverick's picture

No a LEADER would tear up the legislation on live TV and demand a balanced budget. There are no leaders in DC only thieves.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:11 | 3112236 true brain
true brain's picture

It matters to the algo and the sheeple, the RINO, the socialists, the status quo, and the great pretender. If Obama the great pretender is not so deceitful, he would know that there is no such thing as soaking the rich. The top 1% pay 13% effective rate or even less (talk to Buffett), trying raising that you dumb SOB. They owe you no matter what you do. Step out of line and you'll see.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:58 | 3112037 Cursive
Cursive's picture


Thank you for elaborating and I agree with all of your points, though, I never understood why a capital intensive business would elect for S-corp filing.  Still, the extension of bonus depreciation should help all business who are making capital investments.  This discussion underscores the root problem - the tax code is too big and too onerous.  It stifles productivity.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:11 | 3112076 mikla
mikla's picture

Agree with you too, in theory, "big-business" or "capital-intensive" business might be better as a C-corp or something else (LLC, etc.).  However, any more, pretty much *all* small businesses need to "play-with" lines-of-credit in at least six-figures (especially given the rising cost of fuel and commodities, and the debasing of the currency).

The goal with "S-corp" was to allow for "easy-start, easy-run" businesses by Mom&Pop.  However, stocking shelves or getting suppliers means even the "piss-ant-little" businesses are probably moving several-hundred-thousand in cash each year.  Even $1M in "gross" is a really small business.

Try the Family-Farm:  A "good" year and they may "net" $850K.  A "bad" year and they may lose $350K.  Those guys are totally screwed by this.  And yes, I'm talking about the "Family-Farm", that employs Dad, two kids, and one "hired-hand".

I expect we will continually see the "lowering-of-the-bar" to ensure S-corp makes no sense for anyone in the future.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:32 | 3112141 francis_the_won...
francis_the_wonder_hamster's picture

"Still, the extension of bonus depreciation should help all business who are making capital investments"

I hope we can agree that the entire purpose of accelerating bonus depreciation was to pull forward spending so as to goose GDP (and help BO get re-elected)?  Same con was used to increase current year taxes by allowing roth IRA conversions to be taxed over two years.  You pull tomorrow's revenue into current year, and the CBO somehow doesn't account for future tax revenues that are now gone.  There are numerous examples, but they are all part of the can-kicking game.

Personally, I can run my business as an S-corp, C-corp, or as a 1099.  According to my spreadsheet, the changes make it cheaper to file as a 1099 and dissolve the corporation (as was intended).  Or I could just leave the country.......

(Note: referenced spreadsheet takes into account how bad California gets to screw me

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:40 | 3112162 My Days Are Get...
My Days Are Getting Fewer's picture

small-business needs to build a "capital-reserve"


This is correct.  But, the only way to do this is to take all of the profit as personal income and tax it.  Then, you stockpile cash or gold personally.  Or, you set up a LLC or other entity to invest the money in something you can depreciate - real estate, capital equipment, etc.

If your small business needs money, you loan it personally or from a related entity.


My "C" corporation is a "personal service" enterprise.  All net profit is passed through to me for tax purposes.  In running my small business for 30+ years, I have used LLC's for unrelated investments.  Yes, it takes a lot of time to administer all of this and comply with tax-filing requirements.  But, it is worth the effort.



Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:10 | 3112225 autofixer
autofixer's picture

My small business, an auto repair shop, employeed 7 and grossed $750,000 per year. I operated on margins of 5 - 10%; people are price sensative and will always go to the lying alcoholic down the street if he quotes them a lower price.  I was a S Corp LLC and would have been flogged by the new tax rates.  Thank goodness I sold my business years ago.  I would be on my way out of business, due to rising costs and these tax rates.  P.S. The guy who bought the business from me, did go out of business.    He and I are rich by this new definition.  Huum, who knew?  

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:56 | 3112339 lynxminx
lynxminx's picture

This is false.  Losses and business expenses are deducted from profits before "adjusted income" is assessed on small businesses.


More to the point, these same businesses paid this tax rate throughout the nineties.  There was no apocalypse, nor was there a consumption freeze.  It isn't a "hike", it's a lapse of cuts that were supposed to be temporary in the first place.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:17 | 3112373 mikla
mikla's picture

The assertion is that "adjusted income" as "profits" cannot be accumulated within small businesses (S-corp) without being taxed (unlike for C-Corp).

This lowers the risk-adjusted return for small businesses, especially those with high annual variability (see the "farmer" example in this thread).  The net-effect is that small-businesses have reduced ability to "buffer" their capital reserves (and access) from one year to the next.

Apple and Google can accumulate "un-taxed" cash reserves.  S-corps cannot.

Agree that expenses can be deducted (at some level, although this also is under review).  Agree that this doesn't (in itself) imply apocalypse.

However, the assertion is that the "increasingly-limited-upside" for S-corp, with an un-bounded-downside, and unquantifiable risk (e.g., "Obamacare" and employee regulations), imply many of these businesses no longer make sense.  This is quite different from the nineties.  As a further example, the withdrawal of "lines-of-credit" alone makes this scenario *very* different from the nineties.

And yes, the assertion is still that this impact is at greater-than-decimation levels (i.e., greater-than-10%).

Regarding the "no-consumption-freeze" in the "nineties", remember that was the era of the "explosion-of-leverage".  We are now doing the "opposite" of that for S-corps.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:50 | 3112454 Jon Bong Jovi
Jon Bong Jovi's picture

Any small business owner knows BO is full of crap. He doesn't care about small business, his actions are more than sufficient evidence. Bail out big business and shove it to the little guy repeatedly with a giant dildo sans lube. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:32 | 3111959 Fredo Corleone
Fredo Corleone's picture

Is this Senate "deal" not essentially the very same proposal which Geithner presented to McConnell several weeks ago -- the proposal at which, McConnell ostensibly "laughed" in Geithner's face ? Rank, guffawing hypocrisy, or circumferent political fear ?

Who is laughing now, Mitch ?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:53 | 3112024 Bee
Bee's picture

The laughing was because Geithner also asked for Congress to give authority of raising the debt ceiling to the White House.  He was asking Congress to abdicate responsibility and checks and balances, giving the White House a permanent blank check.  McConnell wisely laughed that off.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:02 | 3112107 Jay Gould Esq.
Jay Gould Esq.'s picture

Congressional responsibility; as in, passing continuing budget resolution upon continuing budget resolution -- never an official budget, mind -- thus placing a $16 trillion encumbrance squarely upon the national economy and the Taxpayer ?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:22 | 3112517 SDShack
SDShack's picture

The option Turbo Timmah presented was even worse than this abomination. it would make 0zer0 and all future presidents dictators because they would have unlimited spending ability via executive order.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:25 | 3111937 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Bullish for C corporations.

Just take the income as dividends, just like Uncle Warren.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:35 | 3111973 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Can't S-corp filers take dividend disbursements as well? I thought that was the key difference between S and LLC (assuming that the owners claim the correct amount of wages earned from management, etc)?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:55 | 3112200 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

No, all income is subject to income tax.

The trade off for no corporation tax with limited liability.Same with LLCs.

In theory C corps pay tax on the profit that dividends are paid from.

In practise doesn't happen,think GE etc.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:31 | 3112279 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Not according to this article among many.

My understanding is that if you are an owner and take compensation based upon the work you do for the company and which passes IRS muster, excess profits can be distributed on a per share basis amongst all the shareholders and would count as dividend passive income, not subject to self employment tax and taxed at the dividend rate. Any accountants out there with opinions on this?

The most important features of the S corporation include the following:

  • limited liability for owners;
  • pass-through of income to owners, avoiding double taxation;
  • the business exists independent and separate from the owner/shareholders;
  • complex administrative operation--more forms and filings required, more formal meetings and record keeping requirements imposed (bylaws, meeting minutes, written resolutions, etc.);
  • profit-sharing restrictions--earnings distributed proportionate to capital contributions of shareholders;
  • flexibility in distributing earnings of the corporation by paying wages and salaries to owner/employees and passing-through other net earnings as passive income to owners. "

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:11 | 3112235 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture


thats just fucking great!  Im an S corp.  Fuck me.  Fuck me and marry me young.

This fucking cuntry is a fucking fascist state.  There is no opposition party.  The GOP and the democrats agree on everything important:  spying on citizens, confiscating as much of their wealth as possible, and restricting freedom.

Do you know whats next?  Gun control.  And those motherfucking smegma eating pederats republican dicks are going to vote for it. I see no way we avoid a civil war.  People are pissed and getting pissed"er" all the time.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:33 | 3112282 Navymugsy
Navymugsy's picture

Thank God somebody else knows that "decimation" implies wiping out 10% of something. Drives me nuts when they drop a nuke on London and they say it was "decimated".

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:53 | 3113533 Hobie
Hobie's picture

Definition of decimate from the Oxford Dictionary:


Late Middle English: from Latin decimat- 'taken as a tenth', from the verb decimare, from decimus 'tenth'. In Middle English the term decimation denoted the levying of a tithe, and later the tax imposed by Cromwell on the Royalists (1655)

Historically, the meaning of the word decimate is ‘kill one in every ten of (a group of people)’. This sense has been more or less totally superseded by the later, more general sense ‘kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of’, as in

the virus has decimated the population.

Some traditionalists argue that this is incorrect, but it is clear that it is now part of standard English.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:58 | 3113547 Hobie
Hobie's picture

So historically speaking, it's almost time for 90% of Americans to decimate the population. Starting with the 1 percenters. Trickle down decimation.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:41 | 3111991 masterinchancery
masterinchancery's picture

The fact that 30% of registered voters were dumb enough to vote for Obama, who is now a Lame Duck, did NOT assure any kind of deal, let alone the tax raising kind.  There will be blood in the House.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:33 | 3112146 oldman
oldman's picture


Nothing to do with Kabuki at all, though there is an element of Vaudville/slapstick/keystone cops-----no, this is our turn to show the europeans how to really kick the can!

You remember how americans always do it better, right?    om

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:47 | 3112317 route40misery
route40misery's picture

Haven't we seen this same movie again and again in Greece, Spain, Italy??? In their movie, they kick the can over and over and over and over.........  


Shitty movie by the way!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:46 | 3112318 route40misery
route40misery's picture

Haven't we seen this same movie again and again in Greece, Spain, Italy??? In their movie, they kick the can over and over and over and over.........  


Shitty movie by the way!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:08 | 3111904 stinkhammer
stinkhammer's picture
Pete and Repeat were in a boat. Pete fell out. Who was left?
Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:12 | 3111914 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Two wrongs never make a right.  But, three lefts do.

Food for thought.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:00 | 3112047 HowardBeale
HowardBeale's picture

Clever. About how things (legislation) get where they're going, as well...

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:59 | 3112208 TruthHunter
TruthHunter's picture

"Two wrongs never make a right.  But, three lefts do."

Left the country...what other two lefts do you recommend?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:28 | 3111952 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Boilermaker, you forgot to turn use your "sarc on" key.

Compared to politicians.....I've seen better acting watching porn.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:25 | 3112118 Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture

Not a surprise, of course. Capitulation, no spending cuts. Railroad to hell.

Here is the bill. I stayed up until 2am to read it.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:27 | 3112125 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Well, it was New Year's Eve.  So, you only get partial credit.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:54 | 3112334 Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture

44:1 tax increases to spending cuts. And you thought Obama/Reid would EVER cut spending? Or McConnell?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 10:55 | 3111880 SilverDoctors
SilverDoctors's picture

Kick the can. Is anyone surprised there are essentially no spending cuts?  Move along.
Meanwhile, trends forcaster Gerald Celente is calling for a full fledged World War 3 in 2013!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:18 | 3111927 BlueCheeseBandit
BlueCheeseBandit's picture

Predicting it or calling for it?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:54 | 3112029 J in Vegas
J in Vegas's picture

O.T. post but I need some help from the zerohedge collective hive mind. I got a letter from the California State Franchise Tax Board 2 days ago stating for the 2005 tax year I owe them $4,513.92 in back state taxes. Well I was just blown away. I moved away from Kommie Kali in march of 2004, and already did my tax return for the year of 2004. So I need some help. I remeber someone having this problem in the past on here and hope someone can help me with some questions......

#1 Can they audit you 8 years back?

#2 Can they give you $2100 in fees and interest but not tell you first that you owe money. This is my first letter in 8 years and they put me in collections now.

#3 What can I do? I went to their website, I'm going to sign up to access my old returns because who keeps 8 year old returns? I shredded all that crap along time ago. With the I.R.S. you are guilty until you can prove your innocence. So I need to prove that I didn't make that much money and don't owe this money. I only worked for three months that year and was working as a bartender making $7 a hour.

This is exactly the reason why I moved to Nevada with its zero state tax rate...

And this is the reason why people go all "Joe Stack" on the I.R.S.

J in Vegas

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:15 | 3112088 HowardBeale
HowardBeale's picture

Put your head between your legs...or go Joe Stack. 


California is a full fascist state, all legislation written and paid for by the corporofascists out here. I have had your exact problem. They fucked me for every cent, though I was living abroad for 4 years--while they were sending armed agents to hunt me down at my old CA residence. 


OT: Just a year ago, while living back in the fascist hotbed, I bought a new motorcycle, stowed the old one in the garage, thus canceling the insurance on it. A week later I get a letter from the DMV telling me my registration (on the now-stowed bike; a registration which didn't expire for another 9 months) was canceled until I provided proof of insurance; in other words, if I wanted to pull the bike out of the garage and ride it, I had to go to the DMV and provide them with proof of insurance and pay to have my already-paid-for registration reinstated. I did nothing: Fuck you! 

Thus, I figure if they can cancel your registration anytime they want, why pay for it? Two months into the expiration period, the next year, I notice my paycheck is less than usual. Turns out they garnished my check for the registration fees, including lates fees.

Now understand this: They have now charged me almost double what the normal registration is for a bike that is stowed in the garage and for a bike that is still not insured; for an uninsured bike that they had already proven they would cancel the registration of. They garnished my wages to register my bike so they could immediately cancel the registration. Fucking fascist fucks if there ever were. This is the truth and nothing but the truth. Moving from the fascist fuck hotbed soon.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:42 | 3112166 bigbwana
bigbwana's picture

Come to Canada. During the Vietnam war we welcomed the dodgers with open arms. We told your government to **** OFF when they demanded no asylum be provided.  We got crooked politicians, just like you, but we got three gangs of croks, not two, so shitting on us ain't so easy. Come on up, bro! 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:46 | 3112316 Jreb
Jreb's picture

It's a good idea bigbwana. We should pressure our government to kick open the doors for productive freedom loving Americans and to establish firewalls top keep the IRS and their buddies out.

On the other hand it would also be nice to put a guy on Uranus just for shits and giggles... about the same odds really. Our government is in bed with theirs and the banker kelptocracy. Ain't nothing gonna happen until the plebs make it happen. 60 guys posting to ZH on New Years day do not consititute a movement. Speaking of movements.... too much coffeee. Happy New Years all!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:33 | 3112145 bigbwana
bigbwana's picture

Americans, you should be ashamed. You got a brother asking for help, and you ignored him. I'm a Canadian, thank ****, and know ****all about your tax. Help this man. Help him **** the bastards trying to screw him!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:55 | 3112338 Jreb
Jreb's picture

There is nothing they can do for this guy. They have all the power. We have none. Yet.

My adivse - if you can do it (I can't because of a business, kids etc) is pay the bill and drop out of the system.

Lot's of great web sites to show you how.

For what it is worth I just got hit with a similar bill from Revenue Canada for a mistake my wifes enmployer made on her T4. 2 weeks before Christmas we get smacked with a tax bill for thousands plus interest for a mistake we never made. Merry Christmas eh?

You have my sympathies.

Good luck.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:04 | 3112356 Room 101
Room 101's picture

+1 Bigbwana.  I don't understand the culture sometimes.  Make that most of the time.  And while I like ZH it can be like a Heaven's Gate convention. 

We seem to be too busy bemoaning our collective fate to spend a few moments to do something useful or helpful.

It ain't gold, it's actionable information, bitchez.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:07 | 3112213 Rainman
Rainman's picture

The CA FTB is infested with incompetence. For that very same tax year, I received a similar letter informing me I owed over 5 grand with penalties and interest. Long story short...turns out the keypunch operator credited my on-time payment to a different SS# that was one digit off from my own. It was a monumental, time-wasting goat fuck to straighten it out.

Good luck.



Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:36 | 3112295 Osmium
Osmium's picture

Call me weird, but I have tax returns for every year since 1978.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:48 | 3112323 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

A warning on keeping tax returns past the seven years.

The IRS can and will go back as far as there are records ,to recoup taxes owed.

Happened to a friend of mine who took over the family business.

They went back to 1936 because the records were there,and bankrupted the company

with tax and interest owed.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:44 | 3112303 Room 101
Room 101's picture

You left the state as of 2004, correct?   So how can you owe income tax to the People's Republic of Californication for 2005 if you didn't maintain a presence or earn income there? My first inclination would be to appeal it, but that is going to cost money if you hire an attorney.  Perhaps more than the amount in question.  When they sent you a letter, they probably detailed some sort of administrative appeals procedure.  Look that up and pursue it in that fashion would be my suggestion. Provide evidence that you left the state and no longer had income from there after 2004 and I'd think you'd be OK.  But you never know. If they've gone full renegade, their response might be: so sue us.   

As for the penalties; that's how they get you.  The tax itself is often a small amount but the interest and penalties eat you up.


I hope I've provided some actionable information that you can use. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 10:58 | 3111883 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Tho we have a lot of political farce in Europe with dozens of languages and cultures in the EU

Americans are showing they can do world-class farce even in one country

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:05 | 3111895 smacker
smacker's picture

hhmmm. Methinks Barreloso and the Garden Gnome surely provide the best galactic farce available. Barreloso: "the future of Europe is too important to be left to democracy".

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:56 | 3112032 Ben Dover
Ben Dover's picture

Look at how democracy has been working to solve this problem. Then think "Hey, maybe he's right!"


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:36 | 3112294 smacker
smacker's picture

Well, in the UK anti-EU-ism is higher than it's ever been. But we must not ignore that our PC Lefty MSM never report outrageous comments like this made by the unelected EU elites like Barroso and Rompuy, so few people are aware of them. But they are just the twin talking heads of the EU snake...there's plenty more like them hiding in silos waiting for the day when they assume full power and create a new country called the United States of Europe.

As far as the rest of Europe, it's long been more socialist than the UK and the idea of a united Europe always sounded like a good idea to them. Little do they know what was/is planned for them by their socialist masters.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:21 | 3112389 HL Shancken
HL Shancken's picture

Excellent comments, and anyone interested in the EU must watch the short Vladimir Bukovsky Youtubes on the subject, as you probably have. Then, expand on that by reading the short article by Jeff Nyquist, who introduces a concept that virtually noone accepts as the truth but which nevertheless appears to be exactly so. It is the third link in this reply.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:59 | 3113065 smacker
smacker's picture

Thanks for those links. Vladimir Bukovsky got it absolutely right. A growing number of us see close parallels between the old Soviet Union and the new EUSSR. Not surprising really, given that many of the top unelected EU-crats are ex-commies or quasi-fascists of the old post-WWII order, who undoubtedly lament the passing of their beloved totalitarian jackboot states. Barroso = an ex-Maoist.

The third link you provide containing an article you quote from Jeff Nyquist contains some serious food for thought. His claim is further strengthened by the crash of 2007-8 which some people believe was always a deliberate plot to destroy western economic power, global western influence, and to open the door to the rise of totalitarian government.

Has it all been orchestrated from Moscow? or is it a slightly different plot enacted by the ranks of International Socialists? It probably isn't important given they're all in cahoots, as very well explained in that excellent book True Believers which I read a while back.

At least one person I know is utterly convinced that the UK BoE Governor (Mervyn "King of Inflation") is in the pay of Moscow along with his ex-Prime Minister crony Gordon Brown (a known Marxist and ex-student of communist political ideology). It's the only rational explanation for how they engineered the wrecking of the UK economy. And of course the current Leader of the UK Labour Party is Ed Miliband, who's father was a Jewish Marxist immigrant.

The plot thickens.

One wonders when the purges of intellectuals will begin...

This article posted by another commenter further up/down this thread is also very interesting:  It's of relevance given that all the communist/fascist despots of the 20th century were psychopaths.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:09 | 3111906 CDSMonkey
CDSMonkey's picture

Agreed. This has been an exceptionally pathetic display by america

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:03 | 3112211 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

As opposed to the rest of the world, who's just knocking it out of the park as of late <eyeroll>

My European in-laws have a saying, "when you point a finger, three are pointing back at you".

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:38 | 3111981 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"May the Farce be with you too." I find it fascinating that "I get my news at Zero Hedge" now. The big change in the States is that while newspapers are referenced having read them on my phone today I found "the coverage" to be awful. "Turn it off" is now how Americans deal with "the Garbage." The irony of course is that ZH is a throwback to "simple reading" ... with a lot of anger and pent up rage thrown in of course. "The Devil is in the details" and unless and until I see "what got snuck in" ... which hopefully the House will show but probably not I am certain what we all are getting here is merely part of the story. Hence "the problem with rage." You miss the "sneakers" while you're raging. Anywho great send off to last year...I still don't see anything to derail this A train. The S & P was OUTSTANDING three years running now. Raising the payroll tax is the right thing to do (that's MY Social Security check.) I know all my jobless and homeless Republican friends cannot stand the idea that they might have a retirement check due them...I'm sure they'll live to destroy themselves another day. We'll see how the spending side of the ledger goes. Looks like we just elected Joe Biden as President as well. Didn't see that coming. Now off to Syria folks!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:23 | 3112244 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

I am extremely disappointed in the Republicans trying to balance the Budget on the backs of the Seniors.  They need to get off this Chained CPI for Social Security and means testing Medicare.  Or they will never get elected again.

We have to remember that Social Security and Medicare are contributory.  It is like you have put money away in your Pension and then they want to take it away.

I knew that Romney would lose when he made Ryan his VP pick, after Ryan went after SS and Medicare, in his so called Budget plan.

Now even though the Republicans lost due to the push to change SS and Medicare they are still trying to jam it down Seniors throats.  They are picking on the Weakest of our Society.

We have to remember that most of the Debt that has recently been accumulated has been given to the Banks to sure up their balance sheets.  Yet, there is nothing that anyone is doing to try to Tax the Banks to help balance the Budget.  Just on Seniors who did nothing to increase the Debt.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:29 | 3112276 tango
tango's picture

NO NO NO.  Our debt is almost entirely due to the meteroic rise in social spending over the past 50 years.  Compare the 50's and 60's when social spending was below 20% (and defense near 50%).  We do not have this problem because of (1) Bush tax cut, (2) Evil bankers or emphasis on SS or Medicare.  And yes, Seniors did increase the debt by electing politicians who told us we could live beyond our means forever without consequences.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:29 | 3112405 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

It's not just the spending alone, it's how we create the moeny we spend.    We're paying INTEREST on all the debt we build up.......   nobody seems to get that.  If we simply printed more money instead of issuing T-Bills and paying interest on them (even at the current pathetically low rates) we'd be in FAR better shape -  still in edebt but nowhere's near as much.

If you're gonna live off debt by creating more moeny out of thin air - why pay interst for the privilege of creating more moeny?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:35 | 3113470 Matt
Matt's picture

The theory is that the debt ceiling and having to pay interest on debt keeps the rate of growth in the money supply suppressed. That is to say, if Congress could just print money out of thin air, inflation would be much, much worse.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:58 | 3112207 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

They have to be careful.  I was watching a documentary about JFK yesterday and still can't figure out how his skull and brains end up on the trunk of the limo when he was shot from behind.  If the prez doesn't do what his handlers tell him he gets acute lead intoxication and a new Warren comission saying " single shooter, single bullet".  The fantasy has been going on for decades.  

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:51 | 3112268 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

There is a video on Youtube which implicates the Driver of the Car. Makes you wonder if Jackie was climbing out of the Limo because the shot came from within.

I have no opinion but the Assassination is still what seems an unsolved Mystery.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:33 | 3112416 HL Shancken
HL Shancken's picture

Anyone with any interest at all in the JFK assassination owes it to himself and indeed the whole world to read Ion Mahai Pacepa's book on the subject, Programmed To Kill. If enough people were to read this book this nation could finally come to the sobering conclusion that our President was assassinated by an agent of the USSR, and perhaps this would lead to a change in the weather in Moscow. Because if not, we are going to get a big change here, and sooner rather than later. It was no small feat for the Soviets to kill our President, and to have gotten away with it was surely a master stroke by ture masters at the craft of subversion and manipulation. Can they be blamed for feeling Godlike, for expanding their programs and pushing the envelope, such as they did on 9-11? They got away with killing the President of the United States. Is there anything of which they are not capable? At this point in time I don't think so.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 10:59 | 3111884 Fix It Again Timmy
Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:00 | 3111886 Water Is Wet
Water Is Wet's picture

FISCAL CLIFF DEAL!  Remember all those websites that posted about this garbage incessantly, and in the end the politicians just kick the can like they always do.  Drama queens...

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:01 | 3111887 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

the whole thing is as exciting as nancy pelosi's saggy tits

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:18 | 3111924 Whatta
Whatta's picture

geebus, thanks a lot.  to wake up to that mental image.....where is that champaigne bottle again?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:22 | 3112259 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

Your a bad bad man. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:05 | 3112483 Roosting Chicken
Roosting Chicken's picture

I just threw up in my mouth...a little.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:55 | 3112030 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Not-so-fun bags?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:03 | 3112216 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

She has fun bags, they're just under her eyes.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:01 | 3111888 smacker
smacker's picture

The political elites' desire to close their irresponsible funding gaps thru taxation and borrowing, but not spending cuts, is as strong as ever.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:02 | 3111889 ptoemmes
ptoemmes's picture

Income-tax rates. The top rate on ordinary income such as wages for joint filers earning more than $450,000 ($400,000 for single filers) would rise to 39.6%. Current law would be permanently extended for income earned below that level. Left unclear is whether the $450,000/$400,000 threshold refers to adjusted gross income (AGI) or taxable income. AGI doesn't include subtractions for itemized deductions, while taxable income does.

NOTHING in politics is permanent as long as at can be overturned/changed by subsequent law. I realize that is how things work. The tax code needs an entire rework and simplification, but that is probably unlikely (now). I think the government needs an entire rework and simplification, but that too is unlikely unless...

The legislators in DC, Obama-Biden, and oh heck the Supremes too ought to be individually and collectively ASHAMED of themselves, but I know that is a state of being that they are immune to.

Happy New Year anyway,


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:13 | 3111917 Cursive
Cursive's picture


Ashamed?  You have no idea of the arrogance of our ruling class.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:48 | 3112007 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

why drag diana ross into this.....

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:02 | 3111891 max2205
max2205's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:02 | 3111892 Apathetic or Wh...
Apathetic or Whatever's picture

<font color = red> red </font color = red>

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:03 | 3111893 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:27 | 3111948 abgary1
abgary1's picture

($620 billion/10 years) + $15 bilion is not even close to $1 trillion.

Deficits and debts matter.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:02 | 3112060 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

It's the thought and low interest rate and only one treasury bond customer that count.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:55 | 3112201 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I thought Cheney said deficits don't matter  ... I'm confused /snarc off

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:15 | 3112242 malek
malek's picture

And Sveriges Riksbank clown Paul Krugman agrees - he just states it differently, to not be confused with those evil Republicrats /snarc off

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:41 | 3113495 Matt
Matt's picture

Deficits wouldn't matter as long as tax reciepts grew faster than interest payments. Surprisingly, tax revenues have not kept up.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:06 | 3111897 Water Is Wet
Water Is Wet's picture

LOL, buzzsaw +1.  What retardation were you even attempting?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:43 | 3111992 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

{style = FAIL} FAIL {/style = FAIL} ;)



Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:04 | 3111894 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Who knew that "New Normal" would also bring us the "New Rich" definition."


Forward you socialist pricks, its not just for millionaires & billionaires anymore ;-)

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:05 | 3111896 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

PSSST:  The house will pass it also.  It's a bullshit farce.  That is all.  Pass it on.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:07 | 3111900 SeventhCereal
SeventhCereal's picture

It's really past the point of going into minute details, it is a mathematical certainty that this is going to end badly.  Fortunately, I get paid to wait and am accumulating tremendous cash reserves.  When the time comes it will be an opportunity of a lifetime.  Those with cash shortages and stuck in illiquid assets will bear tremendous losses.  This kind of a wealth transfer happens literally once in a lifetime.  Pay attention.  I cannot wait.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:01 | 3112049 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

You must be politically connected, or you just don't understand the times we're living in in this country.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:13 | 3112239 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

No, no let me guess...  A male prostitute buying rental real estate, right?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:19 | 3112255 Cthonic
Cthonic's picture

 "Those with cash shortages and stuck in illiquid assets will bear tremendous losses.  This kind of a wealth transfer happens literally once in a lifetime."

Sums up 2008 in a nutshell.  Your point?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:45 | 3113509 Matt
Matt's picture

2008 was nothing. Buying a skyscraper for the cost of the elevators is the real deal.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:08 | 3111903 Room 101
Room 101's picture

We sure are hanging on the latest pronouncements, aren't we?  

Here's some actionable information, bitchez.

Water purification:  you can't stack or ponder the latest implications of Fed policy if you're laying in bed, shitting your guts out due to cholera.  For purifying water, probably the fastest way to do so is to use plain household bleach. No additives or perfumes, mind you.  And bleach does expire over time so rotate your supply. For cloudy water use 16 drops of chlorine bleach per gallon.  Clear water, 8 drops.  Stir thoroughly and let sit for 30 minutes. To get rid of the chlorine smell, pour from clean container to clean container.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:48 | 3113515 Matt
Matt's picture

Any tips on saline solution for intervenous hydration in case of cholera?

And does a sealed jug o chlorine still seep out somehow? There must be a way to safely store it in bulk for long term.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:11 | 3111911 Cursive
Cursive's picture

As long as the debt ceiling is still in place, all else is noise.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:33 | 3111970 viahj
viahj's picture

Yes, the debt ceiling fiatsco is where the real action should be.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:39 | 3111985 TerminalDebt
TerminalDebt's picture

They'll raise the debt ceiling to 19T at the last minute and it will all be forgotten for another 2 years again.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:11 | 3111912 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:27 | 3111947 dogfish
dogfish's picture

Thats has to be a new can,because no can can be kicked that many times.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:57 | 3112204 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

new can, same boots and same road

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:42 | 3112167 gould's fisker
gould&#039;s fisker's picture

Art of can kicking--when there's no other tenable option and kicker doesn't get hurt in any way--kick away.  Congress cannot let the tax hikes for all come into effect because it will bring down a political firestorm from public, eventually (endangering their seats), and taxes across the board will depress current subdued economic activity.  Delay sequester ='s preservation of raft of congressional sponsored programs.  Fiscal options = none that are viable besides vigorous kicking.  Political Solution = kick with vigor and spin as problem solving.  Public returns to its screens of varying sizes/Politicians can pretend for another 2 months that they sit atop a viable enterprise and can continue business as usual.  Everybody wins!!! For now.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:13 | 3111918 working class dog
working class dog's picture

The individual income tax is the government's biggest single source of revenue, supplying nearly half the total.

The facists corporations in collusion with the Fed fiat banking system and the gubbament along with ear marks, pork barrell, look the other way regulators, and a dung pile of federal codes along with the PARASYTIC lawyer industry.  make up the biggest drawn down of gubbament funds,


get rid of the fed. and the black hand IRS and you will see sanity return to the financial system, and hey maybe the corps. that are getting a free ride will finally have to man up and produce something besides a team of lobbyists to suck off the federal budget. Do away with the idea of corporstions and return to private all in risk businesses.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:07 | 3112072 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

It's called "goobermint". You remember Goober, don't you? I think he died last year.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:56 | 3112336 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Would be interesting if everyone that objects to all of the Government spending increased their Dependents to 9 this year.  Starve the Beast.

Of, course you would have to put the Money away for Tax time.  Would not want to get caught short with the IRS Gestapo.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:18 | 3111920 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

    This was the first income tax hike in nearly two decades.

So...are you saying this ISN'T just the expiry of temporary tax-cuts?  That looks like the Clinton-era rate.

     The bad news is that starting today millions of wage earners, will see a smaller paycheck as a result of the lapse in the 2% payroll-tax cut, enacted in 2010,

Isn't that a payroll tax HIKE?  Why not?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:36 | 3111975 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Social Security is funded by this tax. The cut in this tax was one of the dumbest moves made by Congress and Obama and was never pointed out by anyone as such. They have moved up the financial collapse of Social Security to 2019 from 2030. This is so typical of the Obama administration policies. Once again most people are so short term focused and quite frankly stupid to not see the big picture.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:01 | 3112055 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

I'm just pointing out a very strange double standard. 

I couldn't care less about who does what with which specific tax-rates--it's all the same to most folks, and it's never going to cover Fed spending.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:35 | 3112151 francis_the_won...
francis_the_wonder_hamster's picture

"Isn't that a payroll tax HIKE? Why not?"

Because they passed it after midnight.  Two hours earlier it would have been a tax hike.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:22 | 3111921 booboo
booboo's picture

See, moving from a Constitutional Republic to a DemoCrazy to a not so benevolent dictatorship in three easy steps, almost there, one more push, breath, breath, sluraaaap. IT'S A, AHHH, OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE WE DONE!!!! PUT IT BACK, PUT IT BACK!!!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:18 | 3111923 Marley
Marley's picture

Happy New Year.  We've made it through the financial collapse, Mayan Apocalypse and now the Fiscal Cliff.  All in the span of a few weeks.  But hey, those build ups, a several years for the impending financial collapse, at least two years for 2012, and 45 days for The Fiscal Clifftm .

I was blue, just as blue as I could be
Ev'ry day was a cloudy day for me
Then good luck came a-knocking at my door
Skies were gray but they're not gray anymore

Blue skies
Smiling at me
Nothing but blue skies
Do I see - Irving Berlin




"Ever feel like you've been cheated"?  - Johnny Rotten

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:17 | 3111925 MyBrothersKeeper
MyBrothersKeeper's picture

Good article Tyler.

Also, apparently, part of the "revenue" plan includes giving people the option of converting their IRA to a ROTH IRA...thus paying the tax now and never (in theory anyway) having to pay tax on any gains going forward.  This has been available with some restrictions.  It will be interesting to see what the rules are and at what rate people would be taxed. source: Fox News

Another absurdity is the deal states than any eventual cuts in sequestration would be matched by more revenue 1-1 (ie more taxes).  The Dems will, of course, try to tie the sequestration to the debt ceiling so they can hold up the "national security" baby. The GOP should make sure those things are negotiated on seperatly.

The 615 B to 15B in sepnding cuts is absurd. And combined over 10 years it is an absolute joke relative to debt trajectory.  As mentioned, tax increases are always a drag on gdp and almost always amount to less net tax revenue than more.  As I posted in another thread, the UK added a wealth tax for 2012 expecting to bring in much more revenue. According to the Telegraph, year over year tax revenue actually declined significantly for the first month that data became available.

The only good thing to come out of it is the long-term care portion of Obamacare was to be eliminated as it has no funding mechanism.

I agree that I wouldn't be betting my house that the House will pass this joke of a bill.  I think there is a better chance they will send the bill back to Senate with amendments...after all if the Senate only got 8 "no's" the House GOP has some leverage in not killing the bill by modifying it.  Finally kudos to Rubio, Paul etc for voting no.  The only Dems to vote against it said it didn't go far enough with tax increases...go figure.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:48 | 3112324 tango
tango's picture

" increases are always a drag on gdp and almost always amount to less net tax revenue than more."    So true!  And another aspect of tax increases is that it doesn't matter whether it is on upper or lower income.  If low income, less trash will be bought.  If high income, less investment, capital formation and charity giving will follow.  Many ZH posters think taxes from the "rich" don't matter but they do - it's throwing more into the DC black hole of waste, welfare and debt that could be used for productive enterprises.  In the end, this is worse than a joke.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:19 | 3111928 Salon
Salon's picture

It will pass.

All they need is 10 republican votes right?

There are more than ten RINO's in the house

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:26 | 3111934 Monedas
Monedas's picture

Obama taxes corporations so much .... they no longer can sponsor floats in the Rose Parade in Pasadena .... government agencies to the rescue .... IRS has a huge, ivy covered dollar sign float .... reminding tax payers to file early .... and often !       Monedas     1929       Comedy Jihad Yen Cross Stuck All Nite At Burbank Airport World Tour

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:25 | 3111938 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

And now a word from one of our nations revered academics.  Piled higher and deeper than ever before thought possible.  Brought to you by the MSM rag "of record".  Just another in a series of fucktard memes getting pushed hard at the programmed right now.  Bizzaro World.


Louis Michael Seidman, Geoffrey R. Stone, Mark V. Tushnet, Cass R. Sunstein & Pamela S. Karlan, The First Amendment (New York: Aspen Publishers 4th ed. 2012).

Sleeeep Bitchez...

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:15 | 3112233 Cthonic
Cthonic's picture


Louis Michael Seidman, a professor of constitutional law at Georgetown University

They say familiarity breeds contempt...

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:25 | 3111939 Grin Bagel
Grin Bagel's picture

Re: Room 101


Thank you from beautiful Valdivia in the Los Rios Region of Southern Chile. Yesterday I gathered H2O from a spring fed waterfall out on the coast as the cabin that I rent has lots of algea in the water system and it is being treated locally with chemicals so that even my dog won't drink it.


The synchronisity of your offering just cements my appreciation of ZH.....and fuck tha' trolls.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:28 | 3112095 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Re: Room 101


So what does the US fiscal cliff have to do with Southern Chile & the shitty cabin you rented? Your poor water supply is not our problem, take your issues up with the socialist water department regime in Chile.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:53 | 3112333 Room 101
Room 101's picture

You're very welcome. I'm happy to provide actionable information.

You might also want to take a look at getting yourself a Berkey water purification system.  Pricey, but you can filter a whole lot of water with one.  You can buy them on e-bay.  Also, for a really cheap system in a warm climate, look at going SODIS (you can read about it online).  Basically you just take water, put it in clear, used plastic water bottles and put them out on the roof for the day (has to be sunny/warm).  It'll kill the pathogens.  

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:03 | 3112480 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

With a quick key stroke on Google, it appears you advertise with Prison Planet. What a shame you are to advertise a product on the ZH forum. Beware of XXXX my friend.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:27 | 3113247 Room 101
Room 101's picture

Say what?  I'm not in the water purification business nor do I read the PP website.  I don't care for Alex Jones, either.  I'm happy to pass the water filtration tip along to those who might be able to use it.  

To save you further speculation, I also don't own a liquid bleach franchise nor do I sell empty plastic bottles usable for SODIS. Both of which I've mentioned on this thread as well.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:26 | 3111942 Translator
Translator's picture

Yep, "Obama and Romney are exactly the same"



I mostly blame Stupid Dumfux like 'Tyler' for printing such pro O'Bowel rubbish, and the dumfux who voted for Ron Paul or some other '3rd Party' candidate. You dumfux swallowed the liberal media propaganda hook line and sinker. Yep both parties are exactly the same....


stupid fucktards


The lazy freeloading niggers were the only group who voted sensibly, re-electing their Welfare King actually took some brainpower on their part......

Something many of you have little of.......



Thanks ZeroHedge, for helping elect O'Bowel and helping take down America another notch.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:33 | 3111967 adr
adr's picture

I downvoted you for saying that it took brainpower for the blacks to vote for Obama.

None of them actually vote. The lever is pulled for them.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:44 | 3111994 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

You are really a dumbass-and a racist disgusting dumbass at that.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:49 | 3112011 Monedas
Monedas's picture

He's a breath of fresh air amid all the bowel gas !

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:53 | 3112021 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

and by the way- How'd you like Bush and the Republican Congress from 2000 to 2007 giving us a ruinous Medicare prescription Bill, doubling the Department of Education with the worthless "No Child Left Behind" , their pork-laden, boondoggle Energy and Transportation Bills, wasting trillions on ruinous wars that were contrary to our national interests, plus the Orwellian police state with the patriot Act, torture -reigniting the Cold War  -corporate cronyism (or Fascism as some call it) --Yes I sure miss the good ole days of the Republicans

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:56 | 3112034 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

And remember  -we had our first trillion dollar deficit in Bush's last year  -and half trillion dollar deficits while the housing bubbble was in full swing. Of course, everything I mentioned above is just as bad if not worse under Obama  -and we are the dumbasses for voting for Ron Paul instead of for another Republican crony capitallist fascist?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:22 | 3112109 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

Well, that's kind of a negative way to look at it.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:06 | 3112071 Bastiat009
Bastiat009's picture

Translator, if I understand you well, you blame the people who voted for Obama and the people who voted for Romney and the people who didn't vote for any of them. You don't make much sense (style and substance). 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:25 | 3112115 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

I don't think he's blaming people that voted for Romney, just the republicans that voted for Ron Paul and The Easter Bunny.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:15 | 3112246 malek
malek's picture

I've seen better trolls.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:27 | 3111944 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

I'm done with Mc Connell. Anyone that's been in his job for this long is part of the problem to begin with are they not? Clearly he is no different than Biden or any other democrat in many respects. For Gods sake give me Dario Franchitti's wife. At least I'd respect her movie career.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:07 | 3112223 sunnyside
sunnyside's picture

I respect her boobs.  They are better than McConnell's.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:07 | 3112224 sunnyside
sunnyside's picture

I respect her boobs.  They are better than McConnell's.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:28 | 3111950 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

 Are there not also new 2013 Obamacare taxes, and not only on the wealthy?


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:39 | 3112040 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

$100 million in annual new taxes for Obamacare. A nearly 4% added tax on capital gains and dividends will help fund Obamacare. This is a tax on all capital gain transactions btw. Dividends will be taxed at nearly 19% under current law. What was passed by the Senate last night would bring it to almost 25% in total. By the way this is just one of several tax increase coming in 2013 alone for funding Obacare. Yeah Biden that's a pretty big f'ing amount. Jerks.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:31 | 3111960 adr
adr's picture

So if you make over $450k in actual earned income you get taxed at 39.9%. Plus all the other taxes.

If you make over $400k in unearned income from investments, corporate fleecing, and gambling in the Bernanke Casino. You get taxed at 20%. Of course there will always be the offshore accounts and fake corporations to make sure a couple million in capital gains never makes it over the individual $400k limit.


You know the bill is always going to be written to favor the wealth without labor class over everyone else.

Tell me again why anyone actually works anymore?

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