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What Happened The Last Time Gold And Central Banks Were So Far Apart?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

From 9/11 on, Gold and the world's central bank balance sheets were as correlated as over-consumption and a hangover (and linked just as causally we suggest). Then a funny thing happened in 2008 - gold slid as the central banks went extreme. Of course, as this divergence occurred, the world's stock markets imploded almost as if the central banks knew their status quo was about to go entirely pear-shaped. From 2008 until November of 2011 (when the world's central banks began their coordinated ease-fest) the correlation went limit up once again. Since then, Gold and CB largesse once again decoupled as liquidity is flushed around the world's markets to suspend reality just a little longer. While this divergence is not as extreme as in 2008, something is afoot.

Then...

 

and now...

 

Charts: Bloomberg

 

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Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:35 | 3112846 fightthepower
fightthepower's picture

Fuck you Rothschilds!

http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=26348

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:36 | 3112848 I think I need ...
I think I need to buy a gun's picture

free market capitalism the best path to prosperity--larry kudlow

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:08 | 3112914 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

Absolute capitalism is what has gotten you in this mess or soon will.   Any system build on the premise of taking out what you did not put in has a limited shelf life.   The interest rate equation has been used over and over by the absolute capitalist which ends in utter chaos every time.   Last time 100+ million unfunded liabilities had to be liquidated, my guess 1-2 billion will have to go this time.  Hilter to me was the ultimate capitalist... eliminate thee enemy by any means necessary.   

The interest rate equation is used by the top to extract from the bottom max potential... once max potential is hit... not much the top can do for the bottom.  All the top can do is recycle what the bottom produces back to them minus their fee of course, once the bottom can no longer support the equation there is nothing for the top to recycle.... only one option left... liquidation of the walking unfunded liabilities... Hilter came up with efficient means to take care of the unfunded liabilities.... he was hired to do it.... the world secretly begged for it, oh, they will sit down and say that is not the case, and for good reason.   

Ignore the Truth and the stupidest generation becomes the greatest generation.

The Truth has no time for ratings, I assure you this system end under similiar conditions as the last one, and the one before that... 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:08 | 3112931 EINSILVERGUY
EINSILVERGUY's picture

What are you talking about? We haven't had unfettered capitalism in about 100 years.

Hitler, as was Mussolini and Roosevelt were fascists who believed in controlled economies

Obama is a modern day Il Duce, and by his favoritism toward some industries and hostility to others, clearly a fascist

Read Thomas Sowell's article on this

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:13 | 3112940 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

You do not see the forest for the trees.   The ultimate capitalist are in charge, the ultimate capitalist have no time for your definitions.   The bottom will be begging to start the same system over just like the so called greatest generation did.   

"Hitler, as was Mussolini and Roosevelt were fascists who believed in controlled economies"

I assure you the ultimate capitalist are in control, the change the rules whenever it suits their purpose.  What they can't change is God's Law ie Truth.   The so called greatest generation did nothing but liquidate the unfunded liabilties at a somewhat efficient rate and rinse and repeat the system.... same as the previous generations, and I would suspect the same as this one.

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:23 | 3112968 DonutBoy
DonutBoy's picture

You're re-defining capitalism to mean what we have, a group of banks and their minions manipulating the economy to protect some favored balance sheets.  That's what it is and it's very wrong - but its not capitalism.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:31 | 3112973 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

Sorry, you are the one changing definitions.   I bet you think words like "fair" and "safe" actually exists?   I assure you the words fair and safe do not exist on this plane as far as I have witnessed, yet they are in the dictionary.

You can either join in next time or your children's children can or they elect not to.... that's their choice... if you select the same path, you will eventually end up in the same pit.   

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:50 | 3113031 flacon
flacon's picture

CAPITALism involves use of (investing) CAPITAL (savings). Too bad our system that we live under despises CAPITAL (savings) and glorifies DEBT (borrowing plus interest). That is why it is impossible to have any government and pure capitalism at the same time since government has no SAVINGS. Pure an-archy (no over arching people to GOVERN over your SELF) is actually rather attractive. Governments are mathematically prohibited from INVESTING, but that's not what they TELL us....

 

Yeah... lots of CAPITALs in that paragraph.  

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:14 | 3113089 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Capitalism involves a theory that is always thrown to the Apothetae every trial we give it.  It's simply only fit for an academic vacuum.  You are witnessing capitalism at work...  and, frankly, there really isn't ever another method of control, only different points on the timeline that appear as something else. 

Mako is right on this one...  he's a one trick pony, but the thing about one trick ponies is that they do that one thing really well...  he's got this one nailed.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:21 | 3113106 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

My definition of capitalism is synonymous with voluntaryism. NOTHING done with force. Every contract must be voluntary. Instead of .gov bureaucracies 'monitoring' us and 'keeping us safe', the market imposes natural and efficient standards as people have to keep their trustworthiness/reputations in order. 

Right now it is a usurious system of corporatism this country is in. The Fed has a monopoly on legal tender, and the inertia and world reserve status has allowed the USD to maintain a facade of integrity as opposed to everybody buying up PMs. It's noted on here by many that fewer and fewer people's salaries are from private, voluntary means, as many more are now in some way very much dependent on .gov, whether it is direct like 'defense' industry, or subsidies and lobbyists getting rules and compliance costs to build a moat to shield from competition.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:27 | 3113118 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Yes, what Mako is saying is that your definition was left to die on the rock...  it failed the wine test.

What you, and others, seem to not understand is that this is the inevitable conclusion of the resources race...  IT'S ALWAYS A RACE.  During the race, all is fair... 

I agree with your assessment of the economy and political environment, but you're trying to conjure the skittle shitting unicorn otherwise known as capitalism to save us...  the simple fact is that our savior has not yet been created...  not yet devised.  And I strongly suspect we will not be clever enough to fix it.

What you're advocating is just us, now, at a different (earlier) point on the timeline...  it's the same shit, over and over again.  It may take different shapes and forms, but in substance, it's always the same.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:10 | 3113215 hawks5999
hawks5999's picture

It's not that free market voluntarism failed, but that minarchism failed. Had the Revolutionary War fighters established a voluntarist society instead of a minarchist society, there would not be a state to grow fat and then malevolent on the success of the market.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:40 | 3113262 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

I think there is a mistake being made when free market capitalism is equated with a debt/interest fiat money system.

Free market capitalism can exist even using barter, the debt/interest fiat system is parasitical to capitalism,

requires the use of the future to live in the present.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:49 | 3113520 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

It was no coincidence that the this American experiment predicated on the foundation of private property and laissez faire led to such a huge increase in living standards. And before that, that Britain industrialized before everyone else was no mere coincidence, as they finally got over mercantilist tendencies and with people like Cobden went away from slash and burn empire and instead went towards fruitful, perpetual trade. 

 

Liberty comes from God. It is an inalienable right with which we all are endowed. And there are citizens living in kleptocratic areas with no 'tangible' freedoms who are more at liberty than many people in nominally 'free' nations, as the former have trust in the Lord, the one who will set us free. The latter don't get that they are slaves to consumerism and taking on debt (borrower is slave to lender) as evidenced by Black Friday, and also are slaves with regards to their MSM-touted stances that there is actually a difference between the Left and Right mainstream parties. 

Their 'happiness' is predicated on cheap, immoral highs from Satanic Hollywood, and their ability to consume more than they have earned which has not come via market forces but rather manipulation and fiat currency shoved down others' throats at the point of a gun. They settle their conscience when they hear how China is 'not playing by the rules' and therefore they 'deserve' to consume Chinese-made goods, but think nothing of the slave wages those people make under Communism and that the reason those jobs are exported away is because of the financialization/usury permeating the U.S. neoliberal FIRE economy from the Zionists who have tricked people (the people are complicit in this, too). 

Here's a paper I wrote for last quarter's class I took in International Relations at my university (didn't hold back my 'ZH' convictions on this one!):

 

Argued here is that China, with its leverage of owning such a great quantity of American debt--over 20% of Treasury securities (Treasury.gov)---and the legitimate prospects for its outright renouncement of the dollar due to its eroding purchasing power, very plausibly could overtake the U.S. as the dominant economic hegemonic power. Additionally, with regards to security affairs, it is foreseeable that China will leverage its creditor nation position to end the era of ‘Pax Americana’ with this refusal to buy American debt. Particularly motivating to the Chinese government to assert its position of power through economic warfare is that the U.S., in its substantially Chinese-funded imperialism and nation-building for ‘security,’ continues to impose sanctions on Iran to prevent it from receiving payments for its natural resources in gold bullion (Rampton). China is indeed the largest Iranian crude oil customer, and as such these provocations figure to only increase tensions. The more significant implication, though, is that arising from the bilateral trade between these Eastern and Middle East nations through secured contracts that bypass the dollar (Bozorgmehr). China is known for its stockpiling of commodities--among them gold, of which it is the world’s largest importer--and these movements towards barter trade with the Iranian Oil Bourse, without US monetary intermediation, are a major development that could portend a return to a gold standard under which the yuan may be backed (Australian Gold). Therefore, although China lacks a military infrastructure comparable to the U.S. or Russia, its productivity, combined with the deteriorating stability of the U.S. regarding its continuance of debt-based consumption and its interventionism via embargoes and preemptive wars, portend a Chinese economic retaliation that would usher in a shake up of global clout. Whether under this scenario a vacuum of power would form and China, in line with the realist, rational state actor view might increase its aggression for territory and trade, or an interdependent, regionally neoliberal scenario under which geographically proximal and cooperative states--namely China, Russia and Asian entities--might, despite differences in identity and ideology, consolidate power for collective global preeminence, the implications are immense (Spruyt, xx).   

That China could be poised to assume status as the dominant hegemonic global power is predicated not so much on its sheer growth, but rather on its meeting the crucial criterion of being the major creditor nation in an era of unprecedented sovereign indebtedness. In fact, despite its explosive growth as measured in the aggregate, it must be reiterated that, while China’s output continues to surge--albeit at a diminishing rate of increase--malinvestment and misallocation of capital is hidden when using GDP for a metric. Under the central planning regime of the Communist Party and its state-owned enterprises, capital is not utilized as efficiently as it would have had it been under private ownership. Therefore, while its raw output has indeed grown tremendously since the 1980s, these supplies must be gauged in terms of value created. For instance, China is infamous for its prevalence of ‘ghost cities’ and other wasteful infrastructure investments. However, in spite of the inherent problems brought forth from these unproductive pursuits, at the end of the day China does produce. Furthermore, it is verging on surpassing Japan--a nation also suffering in the aftermath of government intervention--as the world’s top creditor nation. With Beijing holding the most foreign reserves and the sum of Hong Kong and mainland China’s net foreign assets totaling about $2.42 trillion, it is evident that China is producing things the world desires (Nakamichi, “Japan Retains Status as Biggest Creditor”). To be sure, China, with its neo-mercantilistic agenda that consists of the major facets of centralized currency decisions, export-friendly fixed exchange rates, and countercyclical lending as outlined by Professor Spruyt (5 Nov.), is not at all emblematic of free-market capitalism and is very vulnerable to shocks. However, Western nations such as the U.S., with its propensity to consume and abandoning of laissez faire principles in favor of welfarism, have squandered their savings and credit--artificial via monetized debt and borrowing as evidenced by huge trade deficits--on consumption in their propped up, predominantly FIRE

 economies. This stands in contrast to the Chinese who have foregone consumption of the fruits of their labor in experiencing suppressed standards of living. Resulting are the unsustainable patterns of borrowing to consume in the case of the U.S., and vendor financing exhibited by China. 

The implications are huge, but difficult to forecast at this juncture. This owes to factors such as the Chinese citizenry perhaps adhering to Confucianism in its willingness to not revolt in demand of a stronger currency, the Communist Party’s desire to manage its population, and the sheer inertia of the USD as the reserve currency for such a long period. One argument deriving from Spruyt’s assertions concerning ruling coalitions is that the particular historical trajectory of the regime and its development will be an integral part of policy-setting processes (150). This is evident in China’s command economy and its authoritarian, dynastic lineage of collectivization. Contemporarily its middle class has continued to emerge, but its citizenry’s limited efficacy, or lack of willpower in terms of first level individual liberalization thereof, for free contracts of labor and uninhibited commerce portends more second level dominance in terms of the internal state’s proclivity toward social cohesion (Spruyt 35). 

At present, these constructivist intricacies of organization and cultural heritage on which many international relations are arguably contingent have, in the case of China, subdued many realists‘ harkening to the inevitability of a zero-sum, offensive realist power game. However, seemingly perpetual actions made in the name of ‘stability,‘ such as China’s willingness to lend to the U.S, despite not so ‘temporary’ imbalances of payments, are not permanent. The realist case asserting that the Chinese government has strategically implemented such policies as the export model is convincing in that, all else equal, it is not rational for a self-interested lending entity to continue to avoid imposing legitimate lending standards on an un-creditworthy country. Under this strategic premise, though the Chinese effectively import inflation, their citizens and government are not selling their production free of charge. Rather, as Mearsheimer would contend based on his belief that the state is survivalist and therefore always seeking to maximize power, China is strategically propping up the U.S. with an ulterior motive. This would be accumulating more clout predicated on the pushing of America to increased dependent status such that the Chinese in exchange will have the leverage to dictate terms of trade (Liu, 79). Mearsheimer applies this logic to his view that the Chinese government will implement its own Monroe Doctrine and strive for regional hegemony (Mearsheimer, 162). This stance becomes compelling when one takes count of the wealth transfer from the Western nations that have over-promised and lived beyond their means, to the East. Thus, China simply would be looking to capitalize on the better opportunities offered in the East and emerging BRICS economies.

Returning to the security implications of China’s rise, recent era Chinese military expenditure statistics exhibit important trends for analysis and forecasting. Chief among them is its military modernization evident from the rapid rate of increase in military expenditures over the past decade. From 1999 to 2008, the expenditures rose 194%, and in 2008 China became the second largest military spender in the world (Liu, 80). Still, skeptics can point to the U.S. government spending eight times China in 2008, as well as the U.S.’s military portion of GDP being 4%, whereas China’s is 2% (Liu, 80). Though these may be interpreted as signals that China is not showing signs of militarization and mobilization to counterbalance the U.S., the economic aspect of this security debate must not be ignored. China and many foreign central banks effectively finance the U.S.’s interventionism around the world, and in addition to capitalizing the American military in terms of money, China also capitalizes it with many military goods, as America lacks the productive capacity to even build its military infrastructure. 

This not-so-symbiotic trade relationship becomes magnified in the hypocrisies of the U.S. and other nominally ‘liberal nations.’ Neoliberals will scold China for its ‘not playing by the rules’ of the WTO in its currency manipulation, but fail to acknowledge that the nations that fancy themselves as ‘free’ themselves have state intervention and are dependent on artificially zero interest rates to stay afloat. Instead of convergence of economic institutions that Spruyt suggests may be inevitable, divergence very likely will remain the trend--with the U.S. going further into debt and China biding its time--until market forces end the unsustainable. Whether or not China becomes belligerent is not crucial in this view, as market forces will bring matters into balance. 

Currency wars seem unlikely to be halted, as countries revert to neo-mercantilism, but underlying this is the unprecedented case of all currencies--including the world’s reserve--being backed by fiat. History reinforces that fiat currencies fail, precious metals are money, and regimes attempting to stymie this law, such as the Roman Empire in its dilution of silver content in coinage to fund imperial campaigns, collapse. Argued here is that the persistent Chinese-American regime--with the U.S.’s manufacturing base continually being hollowed out and rentier state benefits of reserve currency status vanishing ; and China’s export-model hitting headwinds of diminishing returns and a populace foreseeably agitating for more liberty--will deteriorate more rapidly, and at some juncture China will defect from this decaying trend in order to capitalize on its position of strength (being a creditor). This would be manifested through either a rapid militarization to approach nuclear parity, or more likely through the aforementioned economic warfare of not buying U.S. debt, as described above. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 23:51 | 3113803 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

So much text...so little semantic content.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 08:22 | 3114387 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

TL;DR

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:41 | 3113961 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

"What you, and others, seem to not understand is that this is the inevitable conclusion of the resources race...  IT'S ALWAYS A RACE.  During the race, all is fair..."

 

Life will always be a race.  What makes the race insane is throwing Keynesian fiat into that mix. 


Wed, 01/02/2013 - 14:02 | 3115324 Dealyer Turdin
Dealyer Turdin's picture

bbbut!  The Skittle Shitting Unicorn! How could That not make you all warm and fuzzy with Love waves warming your very kneecaps?  Next.  Sniping the SSU from the Bernanke Care Bear Helicopter using cell-phone towers to triangulate on the Skittle Shitting Unicorn's Galaxy Iphone.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:22 | 3113108 flacon
flacon's picture

"You are witnessing capitalism at work"  LOL! 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:54 | 3113296 S.N.A.F.U.
S.N.A.F.U.'s picture

Yep, that's some funny shit.

By that same language-bending "logic", we're also witnessing liberty and justice for all, prosperity without end, all man's dreams come true, and I'm currently having sex with 72 virgins.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:16 | 3113887 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

what town are you in? You won't find 72 in Vegas!

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 07:02 | 3114334 Acet
Acet's picture

Could it be that (the idealized) Capitalism is not stable and that what we have now is the natural end state of Capitalism?

Follow me on this:

  • To have Capitalism you need a Free Market with some sort of contract mechanism (i.e some rules) and some sort of system that avoids the usage of violence (otherwise what you get is Anarchy - Somalia style - not Capitalism).
  • If you have some rules you have rule setters and rule enforcers.

Now here are the following forces that are built-in into Capitalism and Humans and are take the system away for the ideal in an ever accelerating vicious cycle:

  1. Rule setters and rule enforcers will continuously try to broaden their powers
  2. Rule setters and rule enforcers, following their own natural greed, will try to maximize their personal outcomes (good luck finding and electing honest politicians in a system that says greed is good)
  3. The broadening of the reach of rule setters and rule enforcers requires that the State consumes an increasing amount of resources
  4. Those who have more capital will buy the rule setters and rule enforcers, thus making sure that rules are adjusted and enforced in a way that preserves and increases their capital
  5. The more capital that is accumulated at one point of the system, the bigger the influence of the owners of that capital in fixing the rules of the game in their favour, thus causing even more capital to be accumulated in their hands.

Thus the natural end-game is a fixed game, uneven playing field (and thus not efficientelly allocating capital anymore), huge wealth inequality and a huge State. The system eventually collapses from not being able to support such an enormous State, from rules-fixing being the most efficient capital accumulation strategy (far more rewarding than maximizing efficiency) and from huge capital misallocation.

As I see it the core flaws of Capitalism as an economic theory is the need for some amount of laws (you can't have efficient markets when the other guy can just get your stuff at gunpoint or simply ignore a contract at will) and the need to get honest politicians and police in power when the system exhalts greed as good.

 

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 17:17 | 3116207 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

This is largely the issue.  There is no objective mechanism to enforce and keep in place the "free market" concept...  from inception, it becomes imbalanced...

The other issue that I toil with is that I think capitalism necessarily presumes some type of "all else equal"/level playing field at inception.  On the one hand, we all know that everyone is not born with equal abilities...  so it would be impossible to legislate around this or particularly punish those who are more fortunate in this regard...  However, on the other hand, if we were to keep the present wealth gap and declare capitalism to be back in full force and effect, what would happen?  Would there even actually be a change?  Would the manipulation just be more blatant?  Does the government now actually hold back some of the force that would otherwise be thrust upon us? 

Simply put, I think at this juncture, the capitalist imposition is actually a cloaked confiscatory model...  presuming its advocates care at all about the success of its implementation.  [of course, it's a bit odd one would need to steal to create a system that prevents stealing; a bit of a non-starter]...  The fact that this issue is never addressed is...  interesting...

Another issue is the inherent conflict between keeping the fruit of one's labors and the normalization of profits through competition...  which is your #4 above.  If capitalism necessarily imposes ZERO profit among market participants in a perfectly competitive market, then why would anyone ever willingly participate?  In other words, the normalization of profits is like a spectre...  in the real world you will never see it long enough to grab the camera.  It is for this reason that the goal of capitalism (perfect competition leading to the realization of the most efficient use of resources and, as a derivative measure, more affordable and more abundant goods and services) can never be realized.  You get left with some shoddy in-between...  that through all of its trials never seems to pass muster.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:32 | 3113132 Dan The Man
Dan The Man's picture

is this an "ends justify means" argument?  Cuz its bogus and that road is failing. The ends are pretty harsh in your controlled capitalism/fascism/whatever world.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 11:04 | 3114759 mraptor
mraptor's picture

Who said Capitalism is fair !? Capitalsm is not fair or unfair, it is what it is, like life... what Capitalsm is, is the best system we have invented by far to bring as much people as possible to the best possible conditions.

What we have is government monopoly coersed by private interests (oligarchy), which will end when the ability to borrow on the others behalf ends i.e. when others people money ends.

All sort of socialistic inclination have the pretence of fairness, but system like those can only work as long people allow to be bullied to work for the lazy. There will always be greedy poeple who will follow whatever power structure exists to exctract the others labor for their own benefit.

The question then comes what power structure allows less abuse and it is clearly Capitalism, because of it natural way of decentralizing power, compared with any form of Socialism which tend to monopolize every aspect of human life, hence act as magnet for unscrupulos ppl to abuse that power.

It is that simple "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"... whichever way allows concentration of power is more corrupt, by definition. And that is clearly Socialism, Statism and Oligarchy.

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:36 | 3113002 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

My initial tendency is to spew insults....But I think you might be well intentioned and so I'll refrain.

Labeling these fucks as capitalist or socialist or any ist other than evil, shitty humans is foolish.

Decentralization of power and rule of law which as it's one and only purpose being to insure the maximium respect for individual free will is the only viable form of governance....Ideally without one at all.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:46 | 3113018 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

People use words that do not exist and have never existed.   I actually had relative tell me "capitalism" is where everyone is treated "fair" and "equal".   I laughed my ass off.  I had another relaive tell me it's where the government stays out of the way of the people.   I again laughed my ass off.

At the end of the day, rules are rules and can be broken or changed.  Real law can't be broken or changed while we exist on this plane... at least from what I have witnessed.   The best capitalist find a way to work or change the rules for their own good.   

I assure you any system based on attaching interest on your medium of exchange has a limited shelf life.   A ponzi scheme is a ponzi scheme.  

People are looking for "fair" and "equal" but in the end they really do not exist, all we can do is be as "equal" and "fair" to one another that we can... willingly. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:03 | 3113068 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Boy you really have been brainwashed by the redefinition police. Since when is capitalism about "fariness" ? thats socialism my friend. Capitalism is about being equal. Everyone has the same equal chance to succeed or to not succeed as their natural abilities allow, but we live in a world where failure is not to be tolerated, or at least not tolerated as long as you are paid up in the right crony circles of power. And that once again is not capitalism

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:31 | 3113128 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

What you're advocating only exists in an academic vacuum...  in the crucible of the real world, it takes the shape (in substance) mako suggests...  each and every time.  You're getting caught up in the micro... 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:29 | 3113244 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

Well then it looks as if the Founding Fathers got caught up in the micro too.  This micro=macro=capitalist=non-capitalist bullcrap you speak of seems to be a new strategy to blind those who have no idea of Truth. Those who have respect for what is right and abhor evil have no problem picking apart your new philosphy. Really it's not a new philosphy, but a very old one, ......deception 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:52 | 3113289 oldman
oldman's picture

Fuck the Founding Fathers!   Meaningless Mercantilists no more, no less                 om

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:47 | 3113516 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

The Founding Fathers freely admitted the Republic they created will be flawed, and made a way to correct them. They also knew, as you should, that freedom and Liberty can only exist within the bounds of a moral society, for Freedom requires responsibility. Something you obviously no nothing about.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:02 | 3113829 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

He may have been brainwashed, but you don't even have one to scrub!

Capitalism isn't about being equal, or even equal chance to succeed....never has been, never will be.

It's ALWAYS been about making a profit, no more and no less...ethics and morality don't even have a seat at the table set by capitalism.

The myth you believe in of a capitalism where people are treated "fairly" has never existed and very likely cannot. Try though you may, it will ALWAYS end up with oligarchs who dictate how things will be and "have nots" that do their bidding to survive.

They may be in the form of the state, they may be in the form of a monopoly power, but it ALWAYS ends up this way.

 

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 08:25 | 3114393 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Nope. Don't confuse the corporate legal form with capitalism.

Thu, 01/03/2013 - 19:03 | 3120324 e-recep
e-recep's picture

equal chance my ass. what about inheritance? how is starting out in a wealthy home equal to starting out in a slum?

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:09 | 3125715 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

The price one pays for inheritance is that it’s an easy target for robbery, an easy way to turn a person useless from relaxation & hence less able to survive post-robbery, and at the best prices for THINGS or SERVICES does not necessarily add a SINGLE skill from the USE of the inheritance even IF there is no robbery, leaving that person actually LESS able in life, merely gifted at the start. How long that gift lasts depends on PERSONAL SKILL/ABILITIES, like avoiding robbery.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:09 | 3113078 monkeyshine
monkeyshine's picture

But this is why we are decoupled from gold and silver, and are able to print as much money as we want.  We can now deflate the value of savings in order to perpetuate the cycle of interest.  As long as the medium of exchange is not fixed to any real asset it becomes relative. Dollars have relative worth - to silver, to gold, to milk, to acres of land, to hours of labor and so on.  Inflation is the release valve for the Ponzi machine you are describing. It doesn't have to explode, instead the relative value of the dollar declines.  We can only hope it doesn't decline so fast as it did in Zimbabwe or the Weimar republic. 

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:27 | 3113912 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

Iseeit

I worry that we have lost the chance to decentralize power. We now face an (enemy) government with VERY asymetrical power, money and especially info. ALL our communications now 'belong to us' (where 'us' is them). Unless there is a monetary system failure we will soon be their bitchez for life. I am not an optimist to begin with but just looking at the facts I'd say the liberty movement is fucked.  There will be almost no opportunity to resist if we maintain the present trajectory of the government increasing all of the above while 'we the people' grow increasing impoverished (which tends to increase a sense of futility as 'some love liberty but most folks just love to eat'. When the population is struggling to exist there will be fewer and fewer who even worry about luxuries like liberty and self governance. Throw in a good war or two to turn us into traitors and ...well it will be a good long while before 'freedom rings' again.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:58 | 3113057 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Landotfree. ......... and you dont see the capitalist through the oligarch facist.

I really hate when people define oligarchical crony cartel facist as ... "capitalist" ... they never were and never will be.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:53 | 3113292 perchprism
perchprism's picture

 

Landotfree is a stupid cocksucking commie fag.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:04 | 3113838 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

You're just mad he dumped a load in your mouth.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:04 | 3113837 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Please point out a single historical example of non-crony, non-oligarchical, non-cartel capitalism.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 14:07 | 3115354 Dealyer Turdin
Dealyer Turdin's picture

Whiskey for Furs?

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:07 | 3125705 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

How about every barter-market & flea-market ever to exist including today (which is several thousand at least)

I know I’ve participated despite the Ponzi fiat scheme all around me. I’m still able to PRODUCE & perform skills which are not fiat & trade them for goods & other skills (services) which are not fiat, not taxed, not under any central control.

It’s a choice.

I make the right choice.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 23:46 | 3113800 KickIce
KickIce's picture

ultimate capitalists?  Ultimate bailout is more accurate.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:12 | 3112944 TheSilverJournal
TheSilverJournal's picture

There is no capitalism without free banking. Money is 1/2 of every transaction.

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 08:21 | 3126775 yourfather
yourfather's picture

The thing is, Hitler was not violent enough or a revolutionary. Yes he did bad things to the jews but this was only to keep germany the way he wanted it to be. In fact his attempt to be a conservative brought about change not because of his success but because of his failures.

If you want a real kind of violence, one that really makes change look at any movement where people were able to kick out governments and autocrats through non weapon methods, like from dictatorship to democracy by gene sharp. Whats needed now is a post industrial democracy guidebook on smashing what we call democracy but in reality is elected oligarchy.

Gandhi was more violent than Hitler.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:09 | 3112934 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Landofree you are a fucking idiot.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:13 | 3112943 GCT
GCT's picture

Agree Economics.  He is drinking the extreme left's teat.  Go back to huffpo please.  The USA is fascist for the most part.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:23 | 3112954 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

As you can tell by my ID, I have never been identified previously as a lefty.   I can do basic Math that is about it.   I can't stand any of you "lefty"-"righty" dip shits.  I am about as "free" as one can be stuck on a floating rock inhabitant by billions of unfunded liabilities who are begging not be liquidated... or soon will.

"Captain Kirk passed the Kobayashi Maru Scenario (a no win battle simulation) at the academy when he was a cadet, by reprograming the simulator and allowing the crew to survive/escape.  He got a commendation for original thinking."

Rules are meant to be broken, a little harder to change God's Law ie basic math.  Captain Kirk was the ultimate capitalist in that fictional universe, he does not stand a chance agains the Laws of God or even simple Math.

Jump on board with the ultimate capitalist this time, well you are probably going to have to wait 20-60 years, start the same system over and come back and tell me how the experience was so different next time... I already know the outcome next time.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:32 | 3112990 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

Even easier still to warp definitions and contort them to whatever one desires. The sole purpose of language is to communicate. Spouting off that others are fools for using a definition proven in theory, logic, and pratice over the course of centuries rather than your bogus and provably incorrect assertions is no way to get a point across; ergo, communicate.

The United States of America is undeniably Fascist in practice if not title. Private corporations seemlessly and synergistically cooperate for mutual benefit of those two groups. That they do not do this openly, does not differntiate the actual practices from Fascism.

You will not attain victory by attempting to reprogram accepted definitions within a place such as this. If you hope to effectively communicate anything to anyone here, I suggest you alter your approach.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:38 | 3112999 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

Humans have choice, attaching definitions to rules and then saying that is the Truth does not make it the Truth.   There is no fair, there is no equal, there is no safe.... all just made up words.  

The only solution is to be as equal and fair to each as possible, people don't like that solution.   Oh well, not my problem.   This system will collapse like all the rest, most probably it will be rinsed and repeated until Man no longer exists on this floating rock.... maybe I am wrong and they will try a different path.

Well, I am going for the night... I'll let you guys talk about how the we'll make the next system fair, and equal... sorry guys it has never happened and never will... those words do not exist.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:49 | 3113105 monkeyshine
monkeyshine's picture

You are missing the point. Fair and Equal do exist. If I have 2 grams of gold and decide to give each of my children 1 gram of gold, then I have been fair and equal in my example, in my action wrt my 2 kids. Those definitions of fair and equal exist. They are understandable. One kid may think he/she deserved a larger share or even needed a larger share but that is immaterrial to the definition. An outsider would say with respect to the division of gold to my 2 kids I was fair and equal. I say it was fair and equal and by using those words everyone understands what I mean. That is what the other poster meant about communication.

I don't have to be fair. They are not equal, but I did treat them equally.  These terms exist, they are real, they have meaning that we all understand in the context. But that does't mean the world is fair, or that people or entities or systems are fair and equal. 

Nobody ever said the system we have was intended to be fair and equal. It never was and it never will be. There are natural inequalities such as strength, height, weight and possibly even capacity to learn and inteligence. There are environmental inequalities - nobody chooses to whom they are born, or where they are raised.  We can build a system with the goal of being fair and equal and it will fail. All Capitalists know this.  Our schools are built to be fair and equal, each school gets the same number of dollars per student, same number of teachers per student, same food, same textbooks.  But the teachers are not equal The neighborhoods are not equal. The children are not equal. The outcomes will never be equal. Is it fair?  We tried to be fair, but life itself is not fair or equal.  Those who can rise above their situation, their natural handicap are given recognition for it - scholarships, money, jobs, fame even.  Those are the motivators to both help equalize an unfair situation.  We can't do much more that this. By the same token, those who have what appear to be all the advantages and screw it up are shamed, ridiculed, shunned. They have the motivation to retain and utlize any advantage they are given or have earned and that continues throughout their life. 

 

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:10 | 3125718 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

No, for fact & truth which includes all definitions there is NO choice.

What’s real is not debatable.

Debate is for what may yet happen, and for fiction. Nothing else.

You are busy arguing a fiction, applying incorrect names to incorrect situations.

The situation itself that you describe is firmly, factually, immovably attached to the FASCISM definition. Nothing else.

What you are attempting to do is call the situation by a name which means its precise opposite.

You can no more succeed as if you argued down was up, blue was polka-dot neon or that bricks fly like airplanes.

In short, you’re either a fraud or a moron. One of the two must be true. The one thing we can expect NOT for you to provide is fact.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:39 | 3112993 akak
akak's picture

Landotfree, your use of the words "capitalism" and "capitalist" is about as logical, insightful and accurate as AnAnonymous' use of the word 'american'.  Apparently, for you, the words "capitalism" and "capitalist" are merely just synonyms for "that which I do not like" and "those whom I do not like (and/or those whom I envy)".

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:39 | 3113144 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Kind of...  look at it this way...  if "capitalism" performs the same way each time it gets implemented in the real world and this way is different than the textbook definition would have you believe, then should you follow the textbook, or the real world example?  The simple fact is that characterizing an economic system is largely a micro process simply because it merely describes a single point on a continuum...  mako is drawing back another step and characterizing the entire continuum...

It's not that either of you is incorrect, per se...  it's that you're describing different things.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:23 | 3113233 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

The argument is much simpler than all this.  It would be easier just to say:  Humans are selfish, violent, greedy, jealous, power hungry and shortsighted no matter the "system" they participate in.

Native Americans had all the space they could ever want without needing to come into contact with one another for violent purposes but they still had tribal wars (they didn't even have horses until Europeans brought them so they had limited mobility as well).  They did not have cities, no universal currency, no industry, no banking, no "government" but still found ways to war with one another. 

Not knocking the natives but the point is it will never be perfect no matter the name as long as humans are the operators of the "system" (unless they evolve but since so many don't believe in evolution that may never happen).

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 11:20 | 3114811 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Interesting theory.

Did single cells have to believe in evolution to become multi-cellular?

Evolution as an act of faith?

This is new.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:18 | 3113099 Being Free
Being Free's picture

"As you can tell by my ID, I have never been identified previously as a lefty"

wtf, are you serious???  This is just too funny.

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 22:38 | 3113633 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Landotfree is a troll, guys.  I'd recognize that language and intentionally distorted logic anywhere (notice the BS smattering of "God's law" references in his post?  He doesn't believe that, doubtful he really believes much of anything he's posting).  Coupled with the small gang of up/down arrow monkeys he's brought along he's getting exactly the rise out of you he expected.

He's not here to debate or even express an opinion.  He's here to disrupt.  He's an online "community organizer."

I pray this is actually the same guy on Twitter:

https://mobile.twitter.com/LandOTfree

That would be hysterical.  I'll always remember him as that guy from ZH who said "I may be out of cash, but I've been grindin since 1776 so ima be alright."  Hah! 

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 23:12 | 3113734 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

"As you can tell by my ID, I have never been identified previously as a lefty."

-LMAO!! Thanks, I loved that..."As you can tell by my ID"... That's the funniest sht I've heard in a long time. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 23:18 | 3113748 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

In the real world reprogramming the simulator (if you could get past the security) would get you time in the pen.
Think Bradley Manning ...

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 02:42 | 3114186 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I agree as well, USA has become fascist with smattering of socialism just enough to keep most from seeing the truth.  I disagree with a comment someone else made in another ZH article that Mussolini was lying when he characterized fascism as corporate control of the state.  Dictators' do not lie all the time otherwise people will get wise to it and the brainwashing won't achieve its desired ends.

ie:"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power' -Benito Mussolini

"As soon as by one's own propaganda even a glimpse of right on the other side is admitted, the cause for doubting one's own right is laid." -Adolf Hitler

 


 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:13 | 3112945 Clint Liquor
Clint Liquor's picture

I guess History wasn't your best subject.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:50 | 3113040 auric1234
auric1234's picture

He's clearly not a student of the Great Depression

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:14 | 3112947 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Any system build on the premise of taking out what you did not put in has a limited shelf life. 

 

That's not capitalism, that's politics.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:29 | 3112982 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

To me that is the exact definition of capitalist or more like absolute capitalism.   I am sorry but the word "fair" does not exist, which is what you are looking for.   Any system based on exaction of more than you put in is doom to fail short term... you might get a generation or so.

As far as I am concern, all you nutbags or more like your children's children can rinse and repeat.... same conclusion every time.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:39 | 3113012 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

Within absolute capitalism, all exchanges are equivalent regarding the parties involved.

If the exchange were not equivalent, if the exchange were not mutually benefitial, the exchange would not happen.

The presence of cohersion or fraud disqualifies the exchange as being capitalistic--let alone an exchange, as the process then becomes theft.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:46 | 3113156 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Then capitalism dances on the head of a needle...  and has a lifespan of a couple moments.  I'm not sure such a system is worthy of accolade.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:33 | 3113935 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

Dancing on the head of a needle is a good thing when defining terms. That means it has "pin-point accuracy", or precision at least. Regardless, do you prefer a system were cohersion, violence, and fraud are present for an exchange to be valid?

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 11:07 | 3114766 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Dancing on the head of a needle is a good thing when defining terms. That means it has "pin-point accuracy", or precision at least.

Possibly, but what it also means is that the crucible of the real world will deny it from ever actually being realized...  thus becoming more akin to a cult.

Regardless, do you prefer a system were cohersion, violence, and fraud are present for an exchange to be valid?

False dilemma (among many others). 

I hate to break the news to you, but cohersion, violence, and fraud are present in every system...  this is what Mako is saying...  whenever your theory actually hits the real world...  that perfect snowman that is capitalism is finally built...  it gets blowtorched by the sun and the only thing left is a dirty puddle in the yard.  You might get a little while out of it, but you're simply idealizing a very, very specific point on the timeline.  Simply put, advocates of capitalism have no answer for the rational actor's desire to avoid the normalization of profits...  It's the paradox of capitalism.  When it finally evolves into its inevitable self, capitalists start calling it socialism or a myriad of other isms.  In the end, it's the same process...  over and over...  and the label matters not (aside from only describing a very specific point on the timeline).

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 15:43 | 3115768 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

Violence will not disappear in a capitalist society, correct. However, I do not see how it would play even a major role within one. At worst, the cohersion and threat of violence would be critically less than it is now. The only cohersion I experience when transacting are taxes. I don't want to pay them. My counter-party does not want to pay them. Merchants don't like to charge it, as it increases the cost of their goods, as well as conducting business.

Without taxes, all of my economic activity, and every person I have every known would be entirely free of cohersion and the threat of violence. Do you turely believe that transactions cannot occur without taxes?

No taxes = no State = no State market intervention = pure Capitalism.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 16:57 | 3116098 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Could you please articulate, from the perspective of the consumer, whether you would rather pay a tax to the government or an inflated price to a monopolistic/colluding enterprise?  Please do not try to pretend that monopolies are somehow avoided after competition takes place... 

Care to talk about the coercion in media?  Advertising?  Prescription medication?  The creation of "needs" for consumers...  imposing panic...  do you think that these things would not happen in capitalist world? 

Again, the only material difference capitalism purports is who the plebs pay directly...  the idealized fantasy that is commonly referred to as capitalism manages to gasp a few short breaths in the world and then dies a miserable failure...  the remainder being the natural and inevitable end game of capitalism.

The point is thus, unless you can articulate a stasis mechanism for capitalism, you cannot seriously advocate it as any sort of practical solution...  in effect, on even a very moderate timeline, it is no different than any other system and, depending on the relative starting positions of the parties when the starting gun fires, it may be over with fairly quickly...

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:11 | 3125725 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

“Could you please articulate, from the perspective of the consumer, whether you would rather pay a tax to the government or an inflated price to a monopolistic/colluding enterprise? “

False dilemma. In a capitalistic society there’d be no net consumers, only producers. Such a society would (as history shows) consist of guilds, artisans & engineers, farmers and more, all who produce, who trade for the production of others USING THEIR OWN produce.

There’d be little room for middle-men marketers, no room for oligarchs, corporations & kings.

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:11 | 3125721 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

utter nonsense. I participate in this dance many times & it is not momentary nor is it on the head of a pin.

Free moments & personal skills are real. Physical materials & real ownership is actual reality. That’s all we need to participate in actual capitalism even if at times we are forced to do other things. Only some people in some parts of the world are actually forced to never participate in capitalism. No one posting here on zerohedge is one of those people.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 22:27 | 3113643 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Wait, are you actually saying that we need to ban profits? If so I got an entertaining video for everyone to see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07fTsF5BiSM

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:15 | 3112950 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Last time I looked, the goal of real capitalism is to accumulate CAPITAL, not debt.


Collectivism (which is the what the present system is becoming) confiscates capital from the productive through a variety of financial and physical means and distributes a bunch, enriches a few and ultimately leads to tyranny

The problem needs to be defined accurately if it is ever going to be fixed.

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:47 | 3113157 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The process you describe happens in every economic system...  it isn't unique to socialism.  You can identify the problem correctly, but we have yet to devise the mechanism to prevent it.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:09 | 3113861 Manthong
Manthong's picture

The American Experiment presented the best mechanism in history, but the founding elements got modified, perverted or ignored over time until we have the Godless, unprincipled, synthetic finance dominated collectivist dilemma that is the US today.

What we have today is not the Constitutional United States of America and it deserves to fail.  

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 11:00 | 3114740 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I can't say whether it was the best to date, but I think we can agree that it was a better system than the present (in its basic functioning; clearly some glaring deficiencies exist with, for example, race relations).  I think the bigger picture issue though is how do we maintain stasis?  How do we keep from partaking in these boom/bust cycles?  How do we ensure that a select group of sociopaths doesn't cash in on the basic human nature that most humans choose to deny that they follow?

The other issue is practicality of regime change...  please articulate the method by which this new system gets put into place...  how the current regime gets cast aside for the reversion?  (please remember you're being monitored when you discuss this; as if you didn't alredy know).

[I'll posit that we're in the inevitable conclusion of the founding fathers' experiment...] 

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 06:14 | 3125728 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

we don’t stop, nor need to stop, boom-bust cycles. Those come right from nature & all we can do is echo them, deal with them, shift them, soften them or make them worse. They will never go away nor should they. They are NATURE.

What we can stop & should stop is the criminal WAR & FRAUD.

That’s easy: find the guilty parties (not a mystery) and STOP them, generally with those "gun" things and on occasion putting them in those "gallows" things if not the "cage" place we call jail.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 23:29 | 3113774 Reptil
Reptil's picture

you're confusing corporatism with capitalism
capitalism needs a functioning system of exchnge of goods

look up the definitions yourself. of course one of the traits of a fascist state is that meaning of language is "adapted" to "fit" the paradigm, regardless of it's original meaning.

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:09 | 3125713 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

You write total madness. Any system of taking out what you can’t afford & will never exist is NOT capitalism.

Capitalism is based on actual production, actual ownership & actual trade.

What doesn’t exist & can’t exist CAN’T BE OWNED so it isn’t a part of capitalism.

Even with debt-trading on what POSSIBLY can be produced, it is due diligence for the buyer to PREDICT what can be produced by the SELLER of the debt, and on the SELLER to predict what kind of deal can be had up-front for whatever (if anything) will be produced later. IN THE END, what’s physically real will prevail, be it full payment or a ‘haircut’ or default.

All perfectly well-self-regulated in a capitalistic market system since everyone has every reason to do research to ensure repayment & no one is FORCED to partake in the transaction.

 

Sounds to me that you don’t understand what is “capitalism” and you don’t understand that what is unsustainable today is a massive systemic fraud of the most absolute anti-capitalism ever to exist.

 

Others should not be doing your homework for you.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/capitalism-socialism-or-fascism

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:46 | 3112885 Hedgerow-
Hedgerow-'s picture

Fuck you all banksters, politicians and other shits! This shit is destoying my fine plans for life. At the moment I don't want to buy a house, don't want to open a business and don't want to reproduce.

Just waiting and waiting for this system to collapse once again and for all. Its not like my life is infinite like some other things supposedly are.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:51 | 3112894 fightthepower
fightthepower's picture

They don't want you to reproduce either. This is why most elites fund population control. The best way to strike back is to buy silver, stay out of debt and have a bunch of kids.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:53 | 3112897 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

 

Alan Greenspan’s comment before a Senate committee on July 30, 1998, “Central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise.”    

And former Fed Chairman Paul Volcker, writing of the events of February 12, 1973:

"That day the U.S. announced that the dollar would be devalued by 10 percent. By switching the yen to a floating exchange rate, the Japanese currency appreciated, and a sufficient realignment in exchange rates was realized. Joint intervention in gold sales to prevent a steep rise in the price of gold, however, was not undertaken. That was a mistake."

and that was VOLCKER saying this

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:01 | 3112912 Bullionaire
Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:34 | 3113133 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

The Daily Bell.

What We Can Expect: Ten Top Elite Memes for 2013

http://www.thedailybell.com/28529/Anthony-Wile-What-We-Can-Expect-Ten-To...

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:56 | 3112906 Karlus
Karlus's picture

"Just waiting and waiting for this system to collapse once again and for all."

Look for distressed situations to snap up revenue producing assets. Ones that are in high demand and you can change prices to match inflation.

This economy is going to punk plenty of people that are leveraged and on shaky ground. Use this as a shopping spree.

Remember: if the economy is doing super good, it favors the status quo, if its declining, then there is pain and some opportunity to get rich

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:07 | 3112927 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

Get involved. Vote. Study the candidates and join a local campaign. Help the biggest imbecile you can find get elected.  We live in a free country where we can pick people to make our decisions for us, that is their achilles heel and they know it.  It will also put fear in foreign countries and strengthen the dollar.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:23 | 3112965 Albertarocks
Albertarocks's picture

The saddest aspect of your comment is that you don't want to reproduce.  That's a horrible state of mind but perfectly understandable.  Sadly my beautiful daughter shares your sentiment.  And it's all due to criminal activities of others.  May they burn in hell for eternity for that. 

May I recommend that you watch this incredible, very well produced 'movie' (actually a series of wonderful interviews) that I recently discovered.  It's VERY upbeat and is a new production as well.  It's all about what the Mayan calendar "really" foretells:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlfYHAV1i8w&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

Keep your chin up. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:47 | 3113278 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

I am so sorry that your daughter is of that mind set.  I understand.

I was reading Jim Sinclair the other day.  Now 70+, sitting on a pile of gold, and with a few kid/grandkids, said that if he were a young man today there would be no way he would have kids.  With him I think it is equal parts apprehension about the economy and fear of living under the 21st Century's version of Hitler/Mao/Moussilini and FDR.  Call it Big Brother if you like.

It is sad not having children to look forward and share the future.  By the same token, I read a meditation about the Newtown tragedy which had this nice coping thought:   "This gives rise to the question, what will you do with the time you have?"

I feel strongly about putting my time to productive use.  I then accidentally let my attention shift to Mr. "You Didn't Build That Business, Somebody Else Did,"  and I want to go lay on the couch and think about food stamps.

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 23:33 | 3113781 Albertarocks
Albertarocks's picture

Perhaps this is just another in their long list of "ways to kill off most of humanity"... make us "want" to not reproduce.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 17:21 | 3116219 SilverSavant
SilverSavant's picture

I second this emotion.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:01 | 3113192 ball-and-chain
ball-and-chain's picture

The Rothchilds!

We blame those stooges for everything.

I'm just not buying it.

It's tough to grow an economy without a strong middle class.

We sold out labor in favor of capital.

Now we're paying the piper.

http://www.angrysinner.blogspot.kr/2013/01/yesterday-dragon-lady-made-beef-and-egg.html

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:39 | 3112851 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

Continue stacking silver and gold coins.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:44 | 3112875 knowless
knowless's picture

Means nothing if your kids don't respect it, you can't defend it, drop 2000 in a soda machine at face value.

Bullets.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:49 | 3112892 agent default
agent default's picture

Your kids used gold coins at face value?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:00 | 3112909 Karlus
Karlus's picture

I like the bullet idea too, just concerned that if you buy a couple pallets, you will be able to sell them after new laws...same goes for stripped receivers.

Dont need to be accused of being a dealer

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:36 | 3112853 ar01
ar01's picture

Well, don't leave us hanging... what did happen?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:36 | 3112854 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

This is Yet Another Presentation why all who read Zero Hedge should be buying physical gold.  There are LOTS of things we should also be doing to prepare ourselves for a bad outcome (including preparing for the tail risks of a terrible ending).  Gold, IMO opnion is the main safe harbor for one's wealth.  Get some gold, get it soon.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 06:49 | 3114331 BigDuke6
BigDuke6's picture

Stacking aint easy.

But its worth it.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:37 | 3112856 rehypothecator
rehypothecator's picture

Europe hasn't recapitalized its banks, Japan is crossing the point of no return, the US, cliff or not, is beyond repaying its debts...  what could possibly go wrong?  Well, at least US treasuries are backed by something, which is comforting, unlike gold.  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX8lx9Mglcg

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:44 | 3112960 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

per yer url:

 

I'm surprised words can actually exit that womans mouth considering the vacuum in her head.  Seems to defy physics.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:22 | 3112966 sgorem
sgorem's picture

the ONLY thing that is backed by THIS government is inflated hot fucking air in the form of green paper and coinage costing more to mint than they are worth melted! Does that give you a clue?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:53 | 3113047 rehypothecator
rehypothecator's picture

My apologies for not including a sarcasm tag on the video.  I just love the conviction, certainty and finality of her intonation, coupled with the utter emptiness of her words.  It might be worth watching again, with that thought in mind.  It's a classic.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:37 | 3112857 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

So gold has some serious catching up to do. BTGFD!!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:37 | 3112858 btb2010
btb2010's picture

FRB holds gold because it's a tradition!!!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:54 | 3112899 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

...to suppress gold's price

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:35 | 3113136 Dan The Man
Dan The Man's picture

dude...great handle!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:38 | 3112859 btb2010
btb2010's picture

 

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:37 | 3112860 btb2010
btb2010's picture

FRB holds gold because it's a tradition!!!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:45 | 3112880 negative rates
negative rates's picture

We heard you the first time. They don't have anything, they leverage and lend  somebody's elses PM's, and turn it into paper assets. As soon as enough people withdraw the physical to make the ratio, a ratio to zero, the ponzi collapses on itself from no actual funds, just a promise to deliver on a date in the past.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:38 | 3112863 Fuh Querada
Fuh Querada's picture

Green curve: Viagra

Yellow curve: Valium with sodium bromide

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:39 | 3112865 tawse57
tawse57's picture

So a drop in gold may be close. Pity the S&P 500 or DOW is not on those charts as well - would be interesting to see where the dips in the markets came.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:39 | 3112866 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Something stinks in the wood pile.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:41 | 3112868 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

What is that schmell?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:54 | 3112900 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You mean other than JPM and the CRIMEX?  That's all I caught a whiff of.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:01 | 3112913 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

How long does it take for a corrupt body politic to decay and decompose? And left alone to its' own devices, devoid of fawning sycophants, scapegoats and cesspools, would anyone smell the stench of rotting fiat flesh?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:11 | 3112936 akak
akak's picture

You are forgetting that rot, stench, decay and putrifaction only empower the zombieconomy.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:26 | 3112977 knukles
knukles's picture

It's a driect function of the half lives of Dancing with the Stars and Jersey Shore divided by the inequities of selfishness and tyranny of the evil.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:44 | 3112876 Threethreethree
Threethreethree's picture

Shortly after 911 Osama Bin Laden released a written manifesto telling all Arabs and Muslims to buy gold and transition away from the use of the American Dollar.

333

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:55 | 3112902 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

<== OBL telling Arabs & Muslims to buy gold [with] joobux

<== Jews telling everyone to sell gold for fiat joobux

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:50 | 3112893 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Ask..

 

Nadhmi Auchi

Antoin ‘Tony' Rezko

Elf Aquitane

Paul Bremer

Daniel Mahru

Carter-Ruck

The Sierra Club

Penny Pritzker

Leo Gerard

Valerie Jarrett

Eric Holder

Orlando Jones

Jon Bon Jovi & Broadway Berry singing

The Joyce Foundation

CCX

Blagojevich

Jabir Herbert Muhammad

Khalil Shalabi

Aiham Alsammarae

  • Geopolitics pass new tax laws so that WallStreet can play with new free monies.
Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:54 | 3112903 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

Tyler,

You ave pointed thoisout before. The shadow banking market is collapsing and the excess uSD sloshing around in the system is going to the banks, not the public. When the banks are told to open the sluice gates by the Fed (or Obama) then we will see AU fly.

Te Fed startegy is to save thebanks first, and then if necessay, open the gates of hell.

It's getting close.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:27 | 3112974 sgorem
sgorem's picture

i like you clown, but don't drink, or drop, and type at the same time please....:)

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:18 | 3113227 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

Hehe...was watching football while typing above. Too many balls in the air.

Musta been down arrowed by an English teacher.

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:56 | 3112904 Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

Or is this one of those correlation, not causation things?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:15 | 3112952 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

it's a gold thing. "price only moves in one direction." and if not "it's being manipulated." with interest rates this low how the hell can i "manipulate" anything? prices should be SOARING. instead "it's all those fiatsco's" that have soared in value. If this article is correct (and it isn't) we should be on the verge of a massive DEFLATION. Okay...WHERE? the burden of proof is on those who believe in "non interest bearing accounts" being the big winner. well...i'm a saver and a worker...and i'm getting OBLITERATED. so i thank my self that i listened to myself and took thirty percent returns "with interest" instead of prepping for an Armageddon that never came. When are we going to talk about COMPETITION around here? Seems like the idea factory is getting a little stale of late...

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:50 | 3113005 akak
akak's picture

I am guessing that your disability is not entirely, and perhaps not even largely, physical.

Please point to the fiatscos that have "soared in value", as I think you are suffering from Cranial-Rectal Inversion Syndrome here.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:55 | 3112905 stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

i have a backpack dredge and know where the gold is in creeks around charlotte,concord,jefferson,kershaw,lovelace,  if it does what i think,  a pleasant afternoon could be extremely profitable.  as it is, i don't own it and do not have to worry about confiscation.  i can get it when the time is right. 

 

nothing like cleaning out the trays and finding a half-ounce nugget

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:08 | 3112924 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

Hi Stormsailor - a backpack dredge hey. Nice idea. I know of a couple of streams nearby that might be worth spending a pleasant afternoon or two doing a little dredging. They have good fishing too. I just googled 'backpack dredge' and it looks like there are a few good choices. Thanks for the tip.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:10 | 3112939 tooriskytoinvest
Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:12 | 3112946 akak
akak's picture

Why do "madness" and "modern" almost seem to go hand-in-hand nowadays?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:12 | 3112941 stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

try this one.  http://www.keeneeng.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=... i dredged during the summer in college worked with backpack dredges all the way up to 8 inch.   average cut about 2 ounces a week back when gold was in the 200 range,  long ago.  beat crap out of some boring summer jobs.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:55 | 3113055 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

sailor:  we must be about the same age as I dredged for a living right after highschool when gold was 120 or so an oz (1976-77).  I continued dredging into the mid 80's until the jack booted thugs of the USFS waged war on us.  Making a living was pretty tough and I wouldn't recommend anyone quitting their day job to go dredging but the memories were worth millions. The gold was in the times.  Now it is against the law (rules and regs backed by the so called forest rangers weilding 40 caliber weapons) in California aka the "Golden state".

Any dredging now must be done guerilla style in that state.  However a new movement by the elected sheriffs of Northern California is attempting to bring law enforcement back to the people and dredging may have a comeback as Sheriffs refuse to enforce the draconian regulatory rulebook the feds call law.  From what I understand, the County sheriffs have ultimate law enforcement powers in their respective counties above the state and feds and these sheriffs are taking that authority back.

Many other states are restricting dredging under a myriad of rules and regs promulgated by the US Wildlife Service and the US Forest service among others.  Water quality issues are a panacea for the extreme environmentalist to shut down dredging in many places (coming to a stream near you).  Soon dredging will be outlawed everywhere and only outlaws will own dredges.

Good luck to us all.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:26 | 3113117 stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

california gold, have read some accounts of huge nuggets being found in placer deposits.  yep, we are right about the same age.   i live close to charlotte nc.  if you do the research,  more gold was minted from the charlotte mint than was ever minted in california.  all of uptown charlotte is built over old abandoned mine shafts.  i grew up south where there were several old gold mines.  biggest nugget ever recovered in the united states was about 20 miles northeast of charlotte nc.  biggest i ever found was a one ounce nugget that was half crystal quarts, half gold.  in 1980 a collector gave me 5k for it.

 

i had an incredible time in my dredgeing days. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:19 | 3112961 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

In November 2008 gold briefly went into backwardation indicating severe physical shortages. Physical Silver premiums also skyrocketed. Spot prices plummeted however because leveraged paper players had to cover losses in other markets (stocks, derivatives, industrial commodities etc.) The gold futures and options players (specs) at the COMEX were biased heavily to the long side in the summer of 2008, too. The following waterfall decline occured due to panic liquidations. Commercials (bullion banks) made a killing during that time and covered their shorts.

Fast forward to December 2012: Paper longs again overstreched their balance to the long side as the FED announced QE3+4 again. Commercials took advantage of that by forcing them out again. Meanwhile physical demand seems to be ultra strong again according to several sources. Rapidly falling forward rates are confirming these reports.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:39 | 3112996 forwardho
forwardho's picture

In "reality" there is a direct correlation between AU and any given fiat. As AU goes up in price the value of the fiat is shown to be worth less.

We are trapped in the land of OZ

The ruby slippers have been burned.

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:11 | 3113361 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

The ruby slippers were silver in the book - changed to ruby for technicolor......   

silver's been getting severly abused

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:33 | 3112997 Mr. Hudson
Mr. Hudson's picture

As long as Bernanke keeps printing money for his friends to buy and sell paper gold, and as long as people buy and sell paper gold, they bankers will always control the price of gold.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:33 | 3112998 radix46
radix46's picture

ECB removed their support for paper gold.

Gold price? Look out beloooooooow!

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:50 | 3113039 ruffian
ruffian's picture

If the system managers were removing their support form the paper gold market then the Bullion Banks would not have covered nearly 90,000 short futures contracts since 12/5/12. That's 9,000,000 ounces or 280 tonnes worth of paper gold. Why would they do that id the end of the paper gold mkt was neigh?

More likely thay are going to lift paper gold prices, suck in the hedgies and other paper players and then bring the hammer down later. They will need to make this rally look very convincing too as many are suspicious of the bullion banks these days............

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:55 | 3113054 radix46
radix46's picture

You are assuming the ECB and the bullion banks are "on the same side".

I don't.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:16 | 3113094 ruffian
ruffian's picture

So the ECB is not on the "side" of the banking system? Who have they been propping up for the the past 4 years then? You think the ECB would allow the bullion banks to default and not give them a heads up? I read FOFOA too and there is nothing to say that even if the MTM party is below Euro 1260 that the BB's could not give the paper players one last good headfake.

Repeat....BB's will be given a heads up when the sytem mangers want to revalue physical. They will not "surprise" the BB's.........

 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:18 | 3113100 radix46
radix46's picture

I agree, they won't surprise them. The BBs know they'll be bailed out by the FED regardless. No surprise.

All paper gold contracts will be cashed out to save the banking system.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:54 | 3113172 JamesBond
JamesBond's picture

there is cash on the sideline just waiting to purchase gold if the price slides; it will be a momentary blip down...

 

jb

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 06:26 | 3114324 radix46
radix46's picture

Good luck with that

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:16 | 3113095 jldpc
jldpc's picture

Unfortunately, the ultimate collapse is still far off; this non-reality can go on for years/decades. But having your .45-70 govt for when the police can no longer be paid will give you a few hours more than your neighbors - as the masses on the dole go rampaging for the last of the "free" food. It is self-deluding masturbation to argue what to call this mess in polite economic terms; history is full of failed countries/civilizations. Look back, look around, read about the collapses - France; American Indians; Cuba; South Africa; Russsian Revolution; various Mexican and South American "revolutions," etc. Better to be armed with the weapon than the high finance book.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:52 | 3113166 JamesBond
JamesBond's picture

ahhhh...  the bend over and grab your ankles and open wide position....

 

jb

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