This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Where The Jobs Are: "55 And Older"

Tyler Durden's picture


A good jobs report? Sure, if one is 55 and over. In December the American jobs gerontocracy continued its relentless course, and as the two charts below summarize since Obama's first term, some 2.7 million jobs in the 16-55 year old category have been lost. The "offset": 4 million jobs for Americans between 55 and 69. For all those young people graduating from college (with $150,000 in student loans) who are unable to get a job, here is our advice: tell your parents, and grandparents, to retire already. Oh wait, they can't because Bernanke destroyed their savings. Oops - better luck next time.

Job "gains" for all Americans 54 and younger vs those 55 and older:

And the same broken down by segment:

Source: BLS


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:00 | 3121847 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Jobs are for wage-slaves.

The Owner class—via government enFORCEment of self-styled "property rights" artificial borders—restricts your free movement and opportunity to hunt and gather a FREE LUNCH off the land like your ancestors did.

"Food resources were 'both varied and abundant,' particularly the energy rich mangetti nut - 'so abundant that millions of the nuts rotted on the ground each year for want of picking."

~Marshall Sahlins, University of Chicago
The Original AFFLUENT Society

Once humanity has been forced out of a free Non-State lifeway of foraging the land, you're going to starve unless you work for the Owner Class. Wage-slavin' away FOR THE MAN.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:03 | 3121916 Shocker
Shocker's picture

Like said before, Jobs are going from Full Time, High Paying  to Part Time, Minimum Wage.

Everyone is paying for this economy, its just the fresh College grads that are expecting 100k, and getting 15k jobs.

Its tough for everyone, and the job market is changing/still very weak


Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:10 | 3121955 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

We Don't Want Full Employment, We Want Full Lives!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:39 | 3122083 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

I couldn't agree more... work aka wage-slavery is a scam.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:46 | 3122106 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Communism and Capitalism are both the same scam: a few brutal elite control the land and restrict free Non-State families from hunting and gathering a FREE LUNCH off the land like your ancestors did for millenia.

I like how this guy puts it:

Our system of private property in land FORCES landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not. Wherever access to land is free, men work only to provide what they actually need or desire. Wherever the white man has come in contact with savage cultures this fact becomes apparent. There is for savages in their native state no such sharp distinction between "work" and "not working" as clocks and factory whistles have accustomed the white man to accept. They cannot be made to work regularly at repetitive tasks in which they have no direct interest except by some sort of duress. Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of DURESS. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs.

~Dr. Ralph Borsodi
This Ugly Civilization (1929, Simon and Schuster)

So now we gotta work, work, work for the Man. Doesn't matter if he speaks Russian or English, they're all the same, control-freaks who will kill you if you dare try to gambol about plain and forest foraging a free lunch.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:02 | 3122186 Chump
Chump's picture

LMFAO!  Yeah, hunting and gathering is free, except for the required knowledge of which nuts and berries won't kill you, and how to lay traps, and how to identify game trails, and how to prepare your catch, and how to identify, avoid, and treat contact with various poisonous plants, and how to identify, avoid, and treat contact with various parasites, and how to detect and avoid contact with other dangerous predators, and on and on and on.

I guess if you can make up your own definitions for concepts you can be right about anything.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:10 | 3122231 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Do you get your fantasies of Non-State life from a Disney movie, City-Statist slicker? I thought so!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:16 | 3122262 Chump
Chump's picture

Have you ever so much as picked a wild berry and eaten it?  Ever identified a wild mushroom and eaten it?  Ever followed a game trail to a choke point and successfully laid a trap with homemade rope?  Of course not.  But you've read about hunting and gathering and it's free and stuff.  Like, totally.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:35 | 3122352 Freddie
Freddie's picture


Choke point for him is when his boyfriend is choking the living shit out of him or when he is jamming a ferret up his....... 

You get the picture.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:58 | 3122479 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

LoLbertarians sound just like Leftist who can't stand the truth about their City-Statist "progress."

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:39 | 3122381 Manthong
Manthong's picture

How are the Mandarin lessons coming along?

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:15 | 3122547 Chump
Chump's picture

I gave up when I found out 'ma' had 7 different definitions depending on the intonation.  Screw that, I'll be a mute slave.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:52 | 3122451 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Have you ever managed a private bank called the FED? No? Then, by your logic, you can't comment on it, just because you've only read about it.

Darn! LOL

But yeah, I've done all that, LoLbertard Liar.

And I didn't have to Work For The Man for it either, which is what we mean by "work" here.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:14 | 3122543 Chump
Chump's picture

I'm sorry you're having such trouble with basic concepts, but if you had actually done any of those things you'd understand they are anything but a "free lunchTM."  The price you pay for being clueless about wild mushrooms is measured in the explosiveness of your diarrhea and the color of your vomit.  

I can certainly comment on Fed policy, and I can likewise be wrong in my comments, perhaps as wrong as you are here.  That's why I strive to know what I'm talking about if I'm going to make a comment.  I also tend to change my opinion when I'm shown to be wrong.  That is clearly a better tactic than writing angry nonsense and then writing even angrier nonsense when called on it.

It's almost lunch time, so I'm off to pick wild berries at random and snag a few rabbits for free.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:12 | 3123523 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

"Free Lunch" simply means foraging your own food and not not having to work for another human who owns the surface of the earth so you can eat.

Wage slavery is the price you pay for being clueless about your enslavement by the hierarchical Owner Class, city-Statist chump.

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 15:00 | 3125482 phyuckyiu
phyuckyiu's picture

Just what this board needs, another mangina sitting on his ipad in starbucks, spouting off about how he can forage for nuts and berries for the rest of his life, and make his own clothes and soap and ammunition and guns and... what a joke. Take your anarchy bullshit somewhere else. I look forward to you bending over when the boys with guns show up. You're posting on the net, that's a collective, jackass.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:04 | 3122199 MrTouchdown
MrTouchdown's picture

What you described there is Fascism and Communism - not Capitalism. If you are one of those kids that went to college, this explains why you got such a simple concept wrong. On the other hand - this is a great opportunity for you to enrich your life with some learning! Lesson 1: Captialism is not a governmental regime like Fascism or Communism. 

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:08 | 3122213 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

What you're attempting is the No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

It's used so often by LoLbertarian types that it should be called the "No True Capitalist Fallacy."

Besides, Fascism has "merit" to this Capitalist economist.

"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aimed at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has for the moment saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history."

~Ludwig von Mises, Liberalism

me·rit (n.) 1. Superior quality or worth; excellence 2. Demonstrated ability or achievement.


Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:25 | 3122309 Chump
Chump's picture

So you've moved from creating your own personal definitions for words to cherry-picking quotes for your own use.  You are truly a winner.

It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history. But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error.

If you'd like to actually read what you're quoting from you can do so here:

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:45 | 3122407 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

And Mises wrote the important parts of that chapter before WWII. At that time even Churchill had kind words for fascism. At that time it was "fascism saving europe from socialism"

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:54 | 3122458 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Marx wrote his bullshit before Soviet Communism. Does that excuse him? No? Darn, you're out of lame excuses, LoLbertarian.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:14 | 3122542 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

LOL - I'm usually addressed quite differently, here...

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:13 | 3123526 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Then you're as fucking stupid as one. What are you, a Leftard, Euro-boi?

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:56 | 3122470 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Mises thought of Fascism as an "emergency makeshift?"

So is a splint you'd get in an emergency room before being shipped to a big hospital to get bone surgery.

Cool Story, Bro, comparing fascism to the work of an Emergency Doctor.

Doctor Fascism, Doctor Fascism, Chump needs you to fix him in room 3!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:16 | 3122550 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

yes. it was "fascism saving europe from socialism". before WWII. way before most of what is understood today as part of fascism

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:18 | 3122553 Au_Ag_CuPbCu
Au_Ag_CuPbCu's picture

I am surprised anyone is even willing to respond to this "City-Statist" spewing troll.  Where is MDB when you need him, he was at least funny some of the time.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:22 | 3122574 akak
akak's picture

This PoisonIvyMike needs to be banned promptly --- he is hijacking EVERY thread with his off-topic diatribes, and right at the top of each thread too, to maximize his visibility and disruptive effect.  If that is not the very definition of "trolling", I don't know what is.  Clearly, he is committed to disrupting and diverting EVERY discussion here.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:26 | 3122601 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Ivy is a weed

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:14 | 3123535 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

akak is like any whiney snot-nosed Leftist. He can't handle dissent.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:18 | 3123553 fuu
Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:31 | 3123622 Jena
Jena's picture

You're making fast friends here at Zero Hedge.  

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:18 | 3122563 Chump
Chump's picture

Um, yeah, exactly.  Mises pretty much called the outcome in the previous parts of that chapter as well.  Give it a read.

Mon, 01/07/2013 - 21:10 | 3131350 MrTouchdown
MrTouchdown's picture

Nope, you're wrong again. Capitalism is simply a personal belief that it is best to accrue as much capital as possible. It has nothing to do with governing people.

Facism is when the gov't engages in capitalism, and prevents anyone else from doing so. If a king decides that only he is allowed to practice capitalism - that's Fascism. The "wrong" with that situation is the gov't taking monopolistic power - not capitalism.

Your fascism quote is nice, but completely off-topic. This is understandable, as you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:07 | 3122520 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

Most work is getting paid to do something someone else doesn't want to do.

I knew when the kids played T-ball and no score was kept or winner declared that they were missing out on a key preparation for life. 

My wife and I, both 50+, got new jobs in the past six months. Hers because she can stay on task and limit cell phone checks to designated breaks. Mine, because I have not had an accident or moving violation for over 30 years. Yes, they are not the meaningful corporate jobs we used to have, but we grew up with first-account Great Depression survivors and understand we all start, or restart from exactly where we are right now.

I know plenty of kids in my childrens' generation who are working their butts off - and succeeding. Some are being taken advantage of with long internship periods and similar outrages.

This generation will do fine, but employers who avoided the over-50 worker due to health insurance a few years ago, now realise productivity is what counts. Today, as the stats show, they just hire the older worker without benefits, giving a hit to both generations.   

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:20 | 3122568 Ballin D
Ballin D's picture

Youre delusional.  I started to address your comment point by point but its more productive to say that the only thing you said that makes sense is this:

"I knew when the kids played T-ball and no score was kept or winner declared that they were missing out on a key preparation for life. "

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:15 | 3122256 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

Nephew paid $120K for degree, now he's working for $22K in some employment agency. It was that or Home Depot

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:36 | 3122364 Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

OMG, 22 dollars an hour, where do I sign up ???

Oh, 22 "K"

= under $10 / hr.

Never mind. Still fooked, keeponlookin'




Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:45 | 3122411 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

I have to agree with Shocker, it's gotta be part-time jobs geared towards that age group, or the latest cumulative push towards gov't privatization (both federal, state and local), with the gov't retirees or quitters going on to the privatized job slots.

As one in that age group who has had an hellacious time finding employment, these numbers don't appear to skew right...

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:08 | 3121920 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Even Benjamin Franklin observed this:

When an Indian Child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our Customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and make one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return, and that this is not natural [to them] merely as Indians, but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived a while among them, tho' ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them. One instance I remember to have heard, where the person was brought home to possess a good Estate; but finding some care necessary to keep it together, he relinquished it to a younger Brother, reserving to himself nothing but a gun and a match-Coat, with which he took his way again to the Wilderness.

Though they have few but natural wants and those easily supplied. But with us are infinite Artificial wants...

~Benjamin Franklin
Letter to Peter Collinson, May 9, 1753

DISGUSTED with City-Statism (Civilization.) Indeed.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:14 | 3121974 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Yeah, but they didn't have iPods and the internet to dazzle them back then!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:22 | 3122008 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Yeah, Civilization (City-Statism) is indeed an ADDICTION CULTURE that started with alcohol. Anthropology and Archeology demonstrate that humans didn't engage in agriculture because they were hungry. The beer pottery predates bread-making ovens by 1500 years.

How Beer Created Civilization

Electronic Heroin is just the latest addiction. (See, even I'm taking another hit on the crack pipe.)

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:47 | 3122117 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

As posted in response to this before; stop twisting the sources to fit your rather Strawman version of Primitivism, you're coming off as an attention whore.

Beer = clean water before people really understood microbiology. Important when you're living in small cities with very little idea of sanitation. (Lest we forget the real genius of Rome; indoor plumbing. Just a pity they used lead, but hey).

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:53 | 3122136 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Tell me how humans survived for 2 million years without beer. Can't figure it out, City-Statist numbskull?

That's because nobody but City-Statists need antiseptic alcohol to replace the water they've made filthy with their City-Statist pollution.

P.S. Nobody but foul City-Statists need indoor plumbing to try to solve the immense problem of their crowded, filthy City-Statist CULTure.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:03 | 3122167 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Hint: many didn't. Top tip for you next attempt: you don't need a static, agrarian population for drinking. Might want to look into nomadic herders. But I guess you're too primitive to have even tasted Kumis or Airag, eh?

Well, now I've just disproven your argument with a twenty-second application of Google, let's move on, shall we?

By the way:

Humans (Homo sapiens) are primates of the family Hominidae, and the only extant species of the genus Homo.[2][3][4] They originated in Africa, where they reached anatomical modernity about 200,000 years ago and began to exhibit full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.[5]

I see you're not even intelligent enough to have progressed to the Australopithecus stage, which is where your claim of 2 million years puts you. 50,000 years ago is Sapiens, child.


I'll defer until your knuckles stop grazing themselves on the ground. Oh, and top tip young hominid: Lions, Tigers and Bears did in a lot of your kind as well, and many have descendents around here.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:05 | 3122204 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Hint: The earliest documented members of the genus Homo are Homo habilis which evolved around 2.3 million years ago; the earliest species for which there is positive evidence of use of stone tools.

Keep raging, City-Statist boi. You're Statist through and through.

Lions, Tigers and Bears did in a lot of your kind as well..."

Do you get your info from Disney movies, City-Statist halfwit?

"There is no evidence either from ethnographic accounts or archaeological excavations to suggest that rates of accidental trauma or interpersonal violence declined substantially with the adoption of more civilized forms of political organization. In fact, some evidence from archaeological sites and from historical sources suggests the opposite."

~Mark Nathan Cohen (1989). Health and the Rise of Civilization. Yale University Press.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:32 | 3122307 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Raging? No, I'm attempting to be kind. Stop projecting.

I'm glad you managed to read the Wiki article I sourced you, top marks for catching the trap; I find it odd that you think that Habilis' life wasn't full of violence, however. Or that they weren't eaten by lions, tigers and bears (for they certainly were, Disney or not). It's not as if you have any real data from that period.

Oh, wait! You then provide a quotation from From 1989. That doesn't even state what you think it does: "Some evidence" and "historical sources". Ahem. Citation please.

I'd suggest (as an ironic nod to your use of such out-dated sources), Bodies, Brains, Brawn and Noses: Human Ancestors and Human Predation 1986 [full text]

For instance, since records began, violence within agrarian societies has decreased. For an example (randomly picked from many) CIVILISATION AND DECIVILISATION, CIVIL SOCIETY AND VIOLENCE [Warning: PDF] p13 for a comparative chart of English data. Hint: it goes down.


Now, I'll repeat this warning to you: I'm not un-sympathetic to Primitivism in certain respects, but you're in for a bad time if you think that I'm either a) unaware of most of their material, b) need to rely on it as an outlet for my anger as you are doing or c) have a brain the size of a habilis.

So, shall we continue this dance? Or are you merely aping your juvenile understanding of Primitivism as a neophyte troll?


Note: you've still not even acknowledged the yak's milk, which is a bad trolling giveaway. Chances are, fermentation was known for thousands of years. I bring you the pentailed treeshrew. Fitting for you, I think.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:36 | 3122366 fuu
fuu's picture

"neophyte troll"

With 11 total days and over 100 posts already it's pretty obvious this is not a neophyte but a regular in a new skin.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:39 | 3122379 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Hmm, I never check things like that.


Traffic driver to raise page views or just boring sort of attention whore? What's your take?



Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:48 | 3122421 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

perhaps just having fun? you "City-Statist boi", you...

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:54 | 3122459 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Yes, I saw that as well, but his sources were so sincere.


When I forget that "fun" =/= "funny"...

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:49 | 3122432 tabasco71
tabasco71's picture

Trying to drum up attention for his new book:

or a reincarnated MDB

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:17 | 3122446 fuu
fuu's picture

I have no opinion on the motive. You will notice the conversation is miles away from jobs.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:52 | 3122447 toady
toady's picture

I'll go with boring attention ho....

But I have a new commentor to ignore!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:59 | 3122486 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

The quote is from a text from Yale University. But LoLbertarians can't handle the truth.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:07 | 3122519 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Yes, and it's still from 1989. And it still doesn't state what you want it to.


And no, I'm not a Libertarian.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:16 | 3123544 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Oh dear, does that mean evolution is outdated because Darwin wrote "The Origin of the Species" in the 19th century and this is the 21st? Quite the sophistry there, especially when you don't have any better retort.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:53 | 3123681 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Oh dear, does that mean that no science has been done on evolution since then, or that Darwin is still considered 100% the source to go to when referencing evolutionary theory? I'll have to tell Watson & Crick that they don't deserve their prize.

Quite the strawman you have there, especially when you can't even source a more up-to-date reference for Habilis' violence rates.


Or, you know, I could do your trolling for you, and find you one. 19 years later science, to be precise:

The paper begins by observing that the almost exclusive focus on violence in industrial societies misses a wide range of variability presented by non-industrial groups, in the present as well as the past. It is argued that this narrow focus represents a significant bias within many of the social sciences. The paper also examines evidence of an evolutionary basis for violence and aggression by looking at the early hominid archaeological record. The paper finds significant evidence for some evolutionary basis for violence given its ubiquity in both the present as well as the deep archaeological past. The paper closes by proposing a synthetic model combining evolutionary theory and interactionist perspectives on the inputs leading to aggression and violence in human social groups. [Aggression and Violent Behaviour, Volume 13 2008 - Examining the evidence from small-scale societies and early prehistory and implications for modern theories of aggression and violence]


By the way: your primitive hominid brain just isn't getting that your progress isn't accelerating in our engagement, is it?


Feel free to quit anytime, you might try reading this to see my goal, it'll save you some energy if you're merely trolling: relevant XKCD.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:38 | 3122353 akak
akak's picture


Tell me how humans survived for 2 million years without beer. Can't figure it out, City-Statist numbskull?

That's because nobody but City-Statists need antiseptic alcohol to replace the water they've made filthy with their City-Statist pollution.

P.S. Nobody but foul City-Statists need indoor plumbing to try to solve the immense problem of their crowded, filthy City-Statist CULTure.

OK, AnonIvyMikeFischer, you troll, we get it: you want to kill 99+% of the world's population in order to have humanity go back to some fantasy hunter-gatherer existence. 

Are you going to be the first to kill yourself in pursuit of your goal?

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:01 | 3122491 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Actually, you're the mass murderer, capitalist, which you have to do to enforce your RIGHT TO TAKE.

P.S. Questions for you:

• Is "any white person's" right an individual or collective right?

• Is "the right to take" a negative or positive right?

"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent."

~AYN RAND, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:17 | 3122541 akak
akak's picture

You know, PoisonIvyMike, I think you are the only ZH troll (out of so many) who sailed right into my "automatic junk" folder within his very first day of posting.  Congratulations on proving yourself utterly unworthy of consideration with such dispatch.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:47 | 3122419 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

'cause they didn't have violence back there, you see, there wasn't any TV to breed and promote violence nor video games, all that raping and pillaging only came after Philo Farnsworth.

(My apologies to the memory of that great inventor, just using his name to get across a nonsensical point.)

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:03 | 3122501 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

"War is a staple of civilization. Its mass, rationalized, chronic presence has increased as civilization has spread and deepened."

On the Origins of War
by John Zerzan

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:23 | 3122581 The Joker
The Joker's picture

And if you believe in bible legends, that's why Jesus turned water into wine.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:33 | 3122052 John Bigboote
John Bigboote's picture

Attention clueless, idealist, young Obama voters: YOU'RE IDIOTS!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:47 | 3122122 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Did you vote for Obama, numbskull? I didn't. Guess again.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:04 | 3122198 John Bigboote
John Bigboote's picture

WTF? You're still an idiot

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:11 | 3122236 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

LoLbertarian Lies, can't admit it. But still has plenty of angst in his pink City-Statist panties.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:39 | 3122376 Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

Legend has it there were lots of dazzling trinkets exchanged for the isle of Manhattan.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:10 | 3122527 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Actually, it was Run, an Island full of Nutmeg.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:32 | 3122050 Finite Supply
Finite Supply's picture


I weep for my unborn children.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:54 | 3122130 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Inside every City-Statist LoLbertarian is a spell checker who wants everybody to know the full market value of their skills. Zero.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:15 | 3122259 S5936
S5936's picture

Geez man take it easy. What , did you eat some poison berries or something this morning.I like SOME of your points, but you starting to scare me

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:24 | 3122295 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Haven't you ever noticed how Internetz LoLbertarians think they can win an argument by pointing out spelling errors? (And it actually wasn't an error; Franklin spelled it that way.) I'm just giving him some grief for a consistently observed behavior.

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:19 | 3125750 phyuckyiu
phyuckyiu's picture

Haven't you ever noticed how ghey faggorts like yourself pretend to be anarchists while posting in starbucks with their chinese made Bad Brains t-shirt? Derpistan, next exit, IvyMike's stop.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:05 | 3122205 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

That's how Franklin spelled it in the original letter. If that bothers you, you shouldn't read many histocial texts as word spelling has changed over time.

Seek out flaws (if at all possible) in the thought behind the statement instead of worrying about the grammar meating your high standards.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:20 | 3122279 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Oh shit, I misspelled meeting due to a distractino from my wife. I guess the entire thought is now worthless....

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:45 | 3122385 akak
akak's picture

"Distractino": a high-density subintelligent subatomic particle of mass 1.2 KeV, produced in abundance during collisions between normal online forum members and high-energy trollons.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:41 | 3122391 Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

It doesn't make the entire thought worthless, just casts doubt on the intellect and education behind the missive.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:17 | 3122268 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

IvyMike, the concepts you are presenting go well beyond the capability of most all posters here.I've barely breached the topics you are bringing up and have been hammered for touching a toe in the water, let alone what you are putting out here.

Thanks for posting the Franklin letter. It's a nice reminder. I found this letter from Franklin a few decades ago along with observations by other people of the same time who wrote about the same thing. It has haunted me ever since wondering what we are missing in this hustling, consumerist culture which allows no other way of living to exist. Note that they did everything in their power to decimate Indian culture so that people no longer have a choice but to join the dog eat dog culture. Most folks cannot imagine anything beyond what is right in front of their eyes. As such they insult and ridicule what they cannot understand out of fear.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:21 | 3122285 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Thanks, man.

Funny thing is, I have got exactly the same flack from Leftist websites.

Because Left and Right are both just slight variants of one overarching culture:

City-Statism (Civilization) "progressivists" as Jared Diamond calls them.

The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race
by Jared Diamond, UCLA School of Medicine

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 14:32 | 3122685 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Your arrogance in assuming that readers here aren't familiar with Zerzan, Diamond, Zimmerman, or even the ones you've not even mentioned such as Naess, Katz, and so on is breath-taking in its self-delusion.

Your real problem is you're so out of date. Here's a couple of modern Primitivist links to get you going.


Lose the arrogance; you're not worthy of its mantle.


Edit - a link just discovered. "Human Culture drove Human Evolution" - from Habilis to the current day, which might bring you up to speed somewhat. Note: "The Edge" is an artsy watered-down (and certainly monitored / policed carefully. If you need proof of this, skip to the end of this lecture and parse the way the unseen interrogator shapes the conversation, quite an strange and illuminating response to the use of Ez Pound) translation for memetic trends to the upper-middle class of America; it functions much like the RSA does in the UK.  So, watch the talk, then do the real research.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:17 | 3123545 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Facts are never "out of date," loser.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 17:07 | 3123739 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Diamond isn't doing facts, he's doing thought. Naess and other Deep-Green thinkers are mostly doing philosophy / ethics, just as a head's up. And, you might have noticed, I've read them: possibly even read a lot more than you, not just picking out the quotes from

Doesn't mean it's not a valid endeavour, but please understand the difference between Science and Philosophy. I've left you a proper Science paper to read, above, about violence.



p.s. Most Deep-Greens would find your take on Primitivism to be somewhat counter-productive. You're supposed to be proving that you're different / better / improved from the Civilisation City-boi model, remember? You're acting more like an animal with its leg in a trap at the moment.


"You've heard of animals chewing off a leg to escape a trap? There is an animal kind of trick. A human would remain in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove the threat to his kind."

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 17:59 | 3123975 ZackLo
ZackLo's picture

Facts troll? Facts are if we don't have a sustainable global capital structure...Bilions honestly think that if all these people ran out of the cities to go hunt they wouldn't fish and kill everything to death? Ever heard of...Tragedy of the commons? take a stroll into your local bad neighborhood park to learn a little something about pople not giving a fuck if they don't have a stake in it. You seem to have a very short term outlook, as for some of us here we want to actually go to space, We want to get to a point where humanity has abolished relative poverty and capitalism has gotten us closer then ever before and if these cocksuckers at the fed and in the government don't get there way we might be able to see it one day.

Facts are private property is productive, So productive that after 200 plus years after we pushed the scavenger monkeys off the land, We put a man on the moon (albiet it was through tax revenue but, that inherently feeds off the productive sector anyway). Non fascism is the seperation of market and governemnt and not a bunch of greedy bussiness men and destitute poor people sucking the system dry until all the capital is destroyed.

That qoute that you cherry pick was pointed at the.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 17:58 | 3123976 ZackLo
ZackLo's picture

Facts troll? Facts are if we don't have a sustainable global capital structure...Bilions honestly think that if all these people ran out of the cities to go hunt they wouldn't fish and kill everything to death? Ever heard of...Tragedy of the commons? take a stroll into your local bad neighborhood park to learn a little something about pople not giving a fuck if they don't have a stake in it. You seem to have a very short term outlook, as for some of us here we want to actually go to space, We want to get to a point where humanity has abolished relative poverty and capitalism has gotten us closer then ever before and if these cocksuckers at the fed and in the government don't get there way we might be able to see it one day.

Facts are private property is productive, So productive that after 200 plus years after we pushed the scavenger monkeys off the land, We put a man on the moon (albiet it was through tax revenue but, that inherently feeds off the productive sector anyway). Non fascism is the seperation of market and governemnt and not a bunch of greedy bussiness men and destitute poor people sucking the system dry until all the capital is destroyed.

That qoute that you cherry pick was pointed at the.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:40 | 3122387 Professor Fate
Professor Fate's picture

"Jobs are for wage-slaves"

Your headline is correct, but its certainly your choice to either grind out an existence working for someone else with your destiny in the hands of "their" decisions OR save up a grub stake, take some risk, and start your own buisiness.  Then you can hire of few wage-slaves.  Oh but wait, SCRATCH THAT THOUGHT.  In new Amerika, POTUS hates all this success shit and the evils associated with striving to become wealthy.  Better you just stay where you are and wait for some government grants for FREE beaver traps. In the meantime, of course, pick up a few timely government educational publications such as the always popular POTUS LOTL (Living Off the Land) Guides including "Michelle Obama's Guide to Creative Mushroom Farming" and the currently Out of Stock "Soetoro's Best of Mississippi River Carp Fishing". 

"Push the Button, Max"

Fate the Magnificent

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 15:51 | 3125529 stuman
stuman's picture

I put in a day of steady, to sometimes hard, work...everyday, 5 days a week. 

And I feel GOOD about it!

I work a job where my efforts count and matter to my community. Is it always fun? No, but it needs to be done and I get payed a decent, very livable wage to do it. 

Will I ever be rich from it? Again, no...but I knew this going in and I'm perfectly fine with it. It's steady, reliable and most of the time low stress, and provides me and my family with a standard of living in which we're very comfortable and have all that we need and room for a bit more niceties and comforts.

I'd sure as hell do this, than sit on my ass and bitch about what others have and what I think THEY OWE me!

It's people who think like you that want something/everything for nothing, handed to them on a silver frackin plate, that think the world is nothing but a huge entitlement party!

It's not...the VAST majority have had to work very hard and take a ton of risks to ultimately be well off in this country. Not everybody makes it, sometimes through no fault of their own...BUT they had and still have the "opportunity" to try and succeed, NOT the guarantee of success!

What you allude to is a perverted fantasy pipe dream!

No matter how you try and twist it and rationalize it...those that do nothing will ALWAYS be sucking off the efforts and hard work of those that do!

It's people like you that get all pissy and worked up about the "rich" but never take a look at what it took those people, the time, the money/capital, the worry and efforts to get there!

It disgust me.

And sadly more and more seem to be turning to the entitlement socialist propaganda poison that you peddle.

There IS NO FREE LUNCH, there never has been, there never will be!

Because there will always be those that needed to work the field, to plant the seed, to water and care and harvest, then prepare the food, serve/cook/store the food.

You can never escape the "effort" that is need to produce and live.

It always comes from someone...and that effort has a cost and value.

I'll take an honest days work any day!







Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:51 | 3121850 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

They're all greeters at Walmart

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:55 | 3121875 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Greetings Earthlings...

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:06 | 3121934 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

Traveled to Tampa and had a 72 Y/O flight attendant wearing 3 inch heals......R U fochin kiddin ME? What in the hell has happened to 60yo and 70yo waitresses busting their asses just to fochin eat........The sheep have already been they're being grilled for their meat.........

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:10 | 3121952 Hohum
Hohum's picture


Interesting.  Did you ask how old she was or did she just tell you?

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:15 | 3121976 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

good question.........she was asked by another passenger and piped up without hesitation....she also said she was single......also she was damn good but how in the hell coud she handle that job on her feet??

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:18 | 3121992 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Some people at 72 are like average people at 50...  sounds like solid genetics, good diet, and a good work ethic.

[you also missed a golden opportunity to join the mile-high gilf club]

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:46 | 3122110 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

Hey.....she was built like brick shithouse but the mug was definitely 72.........

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 14:35 | 3122987 Freddie
Freddie's picture

At least she wasn't texting or working on her Facebook page using airlines internet connection.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:12 | 3121968 duo
duo's picture

must have been AA.  Layoffs there are based on seniority.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:59 | 3122165 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture


The 55 and older crowd are the only ones with the work ethic left to actually get out and WORK instead of sucking the gubmint teat.


Meanwhile, Yunior is laying in bed in the basement doing bong hits and after returning from his 2-week tour following 'Monster Magnet'.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:21 | 3122569 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Beating the heels is one thing, beating the lung cancer is quite another.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:16 | 3121986 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

A movie about earthlings:


Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:20 | 3121996 I am more equal...
I am more equal than others's picture

For those who believe evolution is true, this is just natural selection.  The genetic desire (do genes have desires?) to work is being extinguished in the younger generation which will procreate and pass on sloth as an attribute to subsequent generations.  No worries.  All is calm, procreate away. 

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:31 | 3122041 IvyMike
IvyMike's picture

Evolution is true, but you don't have the slightest clue about natural selection.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:02 | 3122178 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

IvyMike = GullyFoyle?

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:04 | 3122197 fuu
fuu's picture

Pretty much.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 13:15 | 3122545 akak
akak's picture

Ivymike = AnAnonymous after Engrish immersion program.

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:14 | 3125737 phyuckyiu
phyuckyiu's picture

Don't you have some nuts and berries to forage for faggot? Starbucks is gonna close soon, you'll need to forage with your EBT card for dinner.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:07 | 3122214 Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

No, NO ... the controlling gene set is selfish, assuring procreation is in its' favor.  And truth has long since been established; it's the Law of Evolution, not a theory for those who believe.

- idiot.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:04 | 3121926 davinci7_gis
davinci7_gis's picture

The unempoyed and protesting youth will be rounded up and used for cannon fodder in the upcoming war!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:11 | 3121960 Shocker
Shocker's picture

So its just the younger generation that is saddle with all this college debt, and a horrible job market.

And they say " Don't get old"

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:47 | 3122121 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

Welcome to Costco, I love you.

Welcome to Costco, I love you.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:47 | 3122416 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Don't disrespect someone who is working.  There is nothing wrong with being a walmart greeter.  What is wrong is being a banking crook.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:52 | 3121863 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Damn I have 5 more years before I'm a statistic.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:55 | 3121884 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

You were a statistic 50 years ago. No one counts you until it is favorable to their message.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:09 | 3121949 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Yeah I'm sure that I grouped into many statistics...I should have been clearer and qualified my statement for that particular statistic.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:03 | 3122193 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

Don't worry:  you'll be 'Restatisticated'.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:24 | 3122302 slaughterer
slaughterer's picture

Mainly retirees working retail and buying iPads these days.  

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:56 | 3121887 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I have 20 more years to go before I have a shot at a job.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:04 | 3121922 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Don't worry, the social safety net will be fairly cushy for a decent portion of that...  however, auctioning off your anal virginity during the remainder of your sentence probably won't be so cushy...  and, I suspect, there will probably be significant competition on the supply side at that point.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:11 | 3121958 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I see you are a glass half full guy like me.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:16 | 3121983 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

In a two girls one cup sort of way...

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:46 | 3122113 Fredo Corleone
Fredo Corleone's picture

The "gilf" thing almost precipitated a coffee/keyboard event -- that said, fortunately, upon reading this one, the Peet's had already been finished. MachoMan, you are in rare form today.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:32 | 3122336 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

and I haven't even started drinking yet...  at least I'm being productive at work...

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:18 | 3121988 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Awesome!  I'll be employable in only about 10 years!

Sorry to hear about the 20 year thing, Fonz.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:27 | 3122029 toady
toady's picture

That's not how this works. These old folks with good jobs are the last remainders of 'good job America' when companies offered pensions, full medical and dental, and overtime. Believe it or not, there are still a few left.

But all new employees get none of that. They are 'independent contractors'.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:16 | 3122261 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I see that truth every single day.  Thanks globalization, Milton Friedman is smiling in neoliberal heaven on all his proteges.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:35 | 3122061 yabyum
yabyum's picture

Double damn, I HAVE been a statistic for five years!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:53 | 3121865 FubarNation
FubarNation's picture

And the Boomers keep on screwing and screwing and screwing.


When they are in depends I hope they don't expect everyone to keep wiping their asses.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:06 | 3121935 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

Typical Boomer

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:07 | 3121942 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Look you wouldn't be cool if it wasn't for Boomers.  They went to Woodstock, dropped acid and love dope.   They protested against (LBJ's) Viernam and then Kerry and his clan got rich off of those dead boys like LBJ did.

Boomers are the smartestest and the bestestest generations there ever was or ever will be in the whole universe and stuff.  The Boomers and the libtard media have told us that Boomers are the best for 45+ years!  

F TV and F Hollywood.  You watch their shit then you enable The Matrix.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:25 | 3122018 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

be advised - we exist to fuck the system and we have done a great job since 1969!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:36 | 3122064 pods
pods's picture

Freddy, you might want to avoid using a Hollywood reference when you disparage Hollywood.

Unless you are going for that irony.


Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:40 | 3122091 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

+1 good catch.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:42 | 3122396 Freddie
Freddie's picture

I think The Matrix was satire or an inside joke on the viewer.  Hey we are The ****king Matrix you jerks.  Too deep for me. I go to a movie about once every 10 years.  The people at movies are total retards.

But seriously I really love all those hippie Boomers.  

Sitting around in dirty tie dye shirts, pony tails and diapers listening to The Dead and The Doors while dropping acid, Metamucil, Viagra and Lipitor.  Trying to remember who Timothy Leary was and why they hated Nixon. 

F them old hippies and Hollywood.   

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 16:43 | 3123657 RonJon715
RonJon715's picture

That's blasphemy.  Jim Morrison was an American cultural icon.  That dude gained more weight in his 20's than most boomers could even dream of gaining well into their 50's...and before it was "cool."

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:28 | 3122038 Svener
Svener's picture

Ok I'm a boomer. I started out in the work force under the old economy; you know the one where you didn't need an degree to get a decent job. Got a job but we didn't have 401k back then;only pensions. Time moves on and the economy changes. I lose my job. I get my degree and another job. This time it is a 401k. Of course always saving a bit outside the 401k because I don't know what is going to change next. Now I am two years out from retirement. The pension sends me a letter in 2011 they are not funding the pension this year. Then in 2012 another letter from the pension fund that it will be funded by AT&T wireless stock. The 401k has taken a hit but recovered most of what was lost. Explain to me again how I am screwing anyone? Worked all my life, saved all my life and I'm the one screwing every one? Oh please!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:40 | 3122087 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Don't confuse the conversation with facts. These folks need someone to blame, help them out a bit.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:40 | 3122090 pods
pods's picture

Age warfare is the one accepted false paradigm here on ZH.  
Basically every other generation sucks but your own.  Kind of like Congress. They suck as a group, but MY congressman does a good job.

Just another divide and conquer ploy, and as illustrated here, a pretty effective one.

In reality, it is the system that is the enemy, and we all are playing our part.

Just sucks more for those near the end of the Ponzi.

It is still all our faults though.


Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:24 | 3122300 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

The vast majority of baby boomers have not benefitted from the status quo (or what evolved into the status quo from political bribery thru the lobby industry).   Younger people do not understand that but are understandably angry.  Globalization, outsourcing, legal bribery in the form of jobs for govt workers (or politicians) who go 'to the private sector 'cus they hate the govt' after turning a blind eye to some company that needed that blind eye who happens to hire them when they leave.  50,000 factories gone in a decade ... root cause is simple to understand when bias from propaganda is ignored.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:44 | 3122403 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Don't worry - Obama will take your 401-K and guns and give them to a MORE deserving illegal.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:53 | 3121867 ShorTed
ShorTed's picture

Dear Mom & Dad,

Based on the above charts I plan on being able to move out of the basement in 23 years.



Your Child

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:55 | 3121876 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Ps. who broke my amp?

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:59 | 3121902 GubbermintWorker
GubbermintWorker's picture

Dear child,


That is quite all right but remember, we don't have a basement so please watch your head when you get up in the morning. The crawl space is rather short.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:04 | 3121924 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

By the time the boomers drop robots will make sure they won't need to be replaced. Get comfy in that basement.

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:16 | 3122260 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

Actually, just BEFORE the boomers drop, robots will be able to download the boomer's brain and will look JUST LIKE the boomer:


The boomers will 'rehypothecate' themselves.....bright future, eh kids?



Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:59 | 3121870 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture



AND BRING ME MY BEER! Here's a dollar...


Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:49 | 3122131 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture are a bad man

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:04 | 3122195 toady
toady's picture


That's what I'll think to my self when I walk past the Walmart greeter from now on!

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 10:54 | 3121871 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

I predict a job boom for the young uns in 20 years when the boomers just start falling over and dying at their jobs-tag 'em and bag 'em bitchez

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 12:35 | 3122358 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I predict a job boom for young people when the next world war begins, student debt forgiveness for volunteering.  Not what I want to see, I prefer 'Made In China' to be 'Made in USA'

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:00 | 3121900 BlueStreet
BlueStreet's picture

No need to worry, the wheelbarrow industry is going to take off any day now and will provide millions of jobs. 

Fri, 01/04/2013 - 11:03 | 3121915 davinci7_gis
davinci7_gis's picture

No, the youth are going to be cannon fodder for the next big WAR!

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!