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Guest Post: Guns, Like Washing Machines, Don't Act - People Do

Tyler Durden's picture


Via James E. Miller of the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada,

Reprinted from the Middletown Press and Journal

In the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, the usual cadre of politicians, pundits and commentators are hitting the airwaves and condemning believers of the “guns don’t kill” rationale. This exercise in demonization is being followed with pleas to strip Americans of their guns and place a ban on vaguely-defined “assault” weapons.

What’s been lacking in the flurry of proposals that inevitably followed a catastrophe like Sandy Hook has been a deeper look at the kind of environment impressionable minds are coming of age in. Far too often, politically-minded observers fall back on reactionary emotion for the solution to problems without actually engaging in critical thinking as to the root of what they are trying to solve.

As Southwestern University School of Law professor Butler Shaffer put it, we tend to focus too much “attention on the consequences of our behavior” instead of the “casual factors, as the thinking that produces dysfunctional results.”

We then end up looking to government to solve problems which it has a hand in creating. Many pro-gun control advocates are quick to mention that there is little gun violence in countries with “reasonable” gun laws in place. Yet as economist Thomas Sowell points out, countries with stricter gun control laws such as Mexico, Brazil and Russia all have higher murder rates than the U.S. When you compare Switzerland to Germany, where the former has higher rates of gun ownership than the latter, Switzerland has a lower murder rate.

The difficulty with using the empirical method to explain human phenomena is that it ignores the complexity of mankind. Data can be cherry-picked to prove any conclusion. Logic and reason are the best tools to make sense of a tragedy such as a school shooting. And the fact remains that government bans never prevent said goods from reaching the public. More often than not, good people abide by the prohibition while the more criminally inclined ignore the law.

The truth is we will never really know what compelled a young man to take the life of his mother, her coworkers and the children of Sandy Hook Elementary. There are discernable factors that may have played a significant role, however.

Our country’s empathetic response to the ongoing wars that result in the deaths of innocent women and children has certainly resulted in the dehumanizing of fatal violence. The press’s ignoring, and outright covering up, of the human victims (often called “collateral damage”) of the War on Terror has had an immeasurable impact on how today’s society views the loss of life.

When the Washington Post ran a photo of 2-year-old Ali Hussein being lifted from the rubble of his home in Baghdad after an American air strike in 2008, some wrote to the paper and complained that the picture would undermine the war effort. The fact that the child was stripped of a life that was fully ahead of him was lost on most Americans.

There also is the increased use of psychotropic pharmaceuticals that have been shown to induce suicidal and violent tendencies. These drugs were used by the shooter in Connecticut, the shooter in Aurora, Col., and one of the Columbine High School assailants.

The politically-connected pharmaceutical industry, in cahoots with the equally connected medical industry, cashes in by peddling these government-approved narcotics. While correlation doesn’t automatically mean causation, none of these points have been highlighted by a media establishment that would rather make quick judgments instead of taking the time to examine what has become the new “normal” American life.

Those who decry “the guns don’t kill people” line aren’t acknowledging reality. Guns are inanimate objects. They lack free will and consciousness. To say that a gun kills a person is to say that couches, shoes and washing machines can kill people.

In short, guns don’t act – people do. The same goes for television shows, movies and video games with violent content. They are objects that are valued by the minds of the public. Why so many in our society are drawn to violence is worth asking because the Sandy Hook shooting was but another extension of this fascination.

My father often shares with me an anecdote about a classmate who brought a rifle to his high school speech class to demonstrate how to properly clean a firearm. This was in the blue-collar city of Emmaus, and nobody felt unsafe in the presence of a student brandishing a functioning weapon. The question is; what has changed in the decades since the late 1960s? It certainly can’t be access to guns since they were just as widely available back then, if not more.

Eighteenth-century British statesman Edmund Burke once wrote that “the nature of man is intricate; the objects of society are of the greatest possible complexity” and that the simplicity often displayed in hasty political action is “grossly ignorant.” It’s disappointing, but not unexpected, to witness another intellectual mob calling for prohibition of the one tool that holds tyranny at bay.

Common sense says that disarming law-abiding citizens will make them more susceptible to harm. But in the aftermath of a tragedy such as Sandy Hook, rational thought is tossed aside in favor of short run solutions.

What must be considered is why some individuals are so drawn to violence, what effect has the increased prescription rate of antidepressants had, and why casualties in war have become so dehumanized. There is an uncomfortable but common denominator in all these factors.

I would hope anti-gun zealots notice it before they ramp up their War on Firearms.


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Wed, 01/09/2013 - 00:13 | 3135117 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Guns don't buy bullets, people do!

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 00:31 | 3135158 ball-and-chain
ball-and-chain's picture

I'm all for the 2nd ammendment.

But let's tell the truth.

Guns kill people.  Washing machines don't.

Guns are very deadly when given to crazy people.

I'm not for changing the law.

But why lie to ourselves?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 00:34 | 3135179 rehypothecator
rehypothecator's picture

Guns don't kill people - people using guns, and also not using guns, kill people.  Crazy people are deadly when they have guns, but many are also deadly when not given guns.  Governments are sometimes really, really deadly to their own citizens, especially when said governments first remove guns from said citizens.  

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 00:44 | 3135211 aka Gil
aka Gil's picture

Well said. Crazy people (including governments) commit murder. Self defense is righteous killing.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 03:30 | 3135453 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

@ the thread

Almost anything can be used as a weapon, but here's the ugly truth.

That WMD called the United States Of America, the runaway Psychopaths in Government, Banking and Finance, the Corporations born from it, as well as the twisted and spun Draconian Ideologies it uses to legitimise and wage endless aggression through the Military Industrial Complex, Intelligence Agencies, MSM, and Financial centres, around the globe, make guns look like fucking Lego.

Since WWI the US has been used as both a parasitic host and global henchman in one, but the financial wounds brought about from this abuse are great. That aggression (fear actually) is now turning inward as a protective stance and to reduce its capacity to wage war below a specific level and to bring financial dependence. This is to permit subservience to the UN on both governance and policy (foreign and domestic)...from contracted freelance henchman to subservient soldier…from free hunter to slave farmer.

Let's face it, while you were being told to salute to the flag you were getting knifed in the back, by the same people. These people in turn are only puppets; doing the bidding of centuries old unseen masters in exchange for high to obscene standards of're shooting in the dark.

I say, keep your guns; you're going to need them...probably soon by the look of things.

If the conversation is about the aspects of firearm weapons which are troublesome, it's quite simple, they are;
1. Accessibility
2. User knowledge and training
3. Capacity (ammunition)
4. Capability (damage-wise)
5. Concealability
6. Intent

Unless you can define your argument, then saying guns kill people, or, people kill people is like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg....both come together....common dog fuck a 5yo can understand!

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 04:20 | 3135564 macholatte
macholatte's picture



Far too often, politically-minded observers fall back on reactionary emotion for the solution to problems without actually engaging in critical thinking as to the root of what they are trying to solve.


I disagree. Emotion is what rules public opinion and not logic or facts. The Propaganda Machine is guided by critical thinkers. How else could people be convinced that a disgusting addiction like smoking is sexy?  

$16T debt => not important.

Free cell phone => vote for Obama.



It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion.
Joseph Goebbels



Wed, 01/09/2013 - 05:00 | 3135620 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Gun right in 1800s didn't include semiautomatics

But it is the poor always getting killed and argueing for guns as rich use others to do the shooting

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 05:43 | 3135662 M4570D0N
M4570D0N's picture

The fuck does this nonsensical drivel even mean?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 06:39 | 3135695 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

You didn't know? Feinstein has a 1.21 Gigawatt DeLorean, and went back to get the Gatling gun off the streets. 

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 07:59 | 3135756 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Its not the gun.

Its time to "go there"...

  1. Huntsville, Alabama – February 5, 2010: 15-year-old Hammad Memon shot and killed another Discover Middle School student Todd Brown. Memon had a history for being treated for ADHD and depression. He was taking the antidepressant Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.” He had been seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist.
  2. Kauhajoki, Finland – September 23, 2008: 22-year-old culinary student Matti Saari shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine. He was also seeing a psychologist.
  3. Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system. He had been seeing a psychiatrist.
  4. Jokela, Finland – November 7, 2007: 18-year-old Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School in southern Finland, then committed suicide.
  5. Cleveland, Ohio – October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon had been placed on the antidepressant Trazodone.
  6. Red Lake, Minnesota – March 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, on Prozac, shot and killed his grandparents, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 7 students and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself.
  7. Greenbush, New York – February 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. Romano had been taking “medication for depression”. He had previously seen a psychiatrist.
  8. Wahluke, Washington – April 10, 2001: Sixteen-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. He had been taking the antidepressant Effexor.
  9. El Cajon, California – March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor, opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School. He had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.
  10. Williamsport, Pennsylvania – March 7, 2001: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was taking the antidepressant Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.
  11. Conyers, Georgia – May 20, 1999: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with the stimulant Ritalin when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.
  12. Columbine, Colorado – April 20, 1999: 18-year-old Eric Harris and his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 26 others before killing themselves. Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox. Klebold’s medical records remain sealed. Both shooters had been in anger-management classes and had undergone counseling. Harris had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.
  13. Notus, Idaho – April 16, 1999: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, narrowly missing students. He was taking a prescribed SSRI antidepressant and Ritalin.
  14. Springfield, Oregon – May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 25. Kinkel had been taking the antidepressant Prozac. Kinkel had been attending “anger control classes” and was under the care of a psychologist.
Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:31 | 3135766 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Thing is where I live there is near zero possibility of anyone walking into school and shooting my kids. Because they (guns) are banned.

I like that.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:45 | 3135804 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

Guns are banned in the UK too, but they still had 35 gun murders last year.  The authorities cannot possibly search everyone and everything.  The criminals will always find a way to get weaponry that they aren't supposed to have.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:54 | 3135819 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"tightly controlled" is not exactly banned. for some weapons I shop there, excellent weaponsmith tradition

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:20 | 3135885 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Just give me enough money to get some more 7.62x54 rounds please.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:02 | 3136001 Badabing
Badabing's picture

AldousHuxley said:

“Gun right in 1800s didn't include semiautomatics”

Man you got all the right buzz words and used them just like the MSM, are you reading from a teleprompter?

The term “gun right” is not in the 2nd amendment.

It’s the right to possess arms and form a militia.

Arms is a general word, it’s that way for a reason, so that “we the people” can stop our government that has been taken over and defend ourselves against standing armies using slingshots or ICBMs to accomplish that “for the people”.

And second the word “semiautomatics”, a semiautomatic is a firearm that can load more than one round BUT only fires one round at a time when the trigger is pulled. A revolver is a semiautomatic.

 The MSM loves to through in the word semiautomatics because it gets confused with automatic by uninformed ass holes like you. The safety on an automatic weapon like a Colt M16 has only 3 positions safe, semi, and auto, but you think its safe, auto, and auto     


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:05 | 3136037 americhinaman
americhinaman's picture

i grew up in america as a skinny, sickly, nerdy, ethnic chinese kid with braces and glasses.  4-eyes, brace-face, chink, etc.  it didn't help in the eyes of 90% of my classmates that that i was american, born and raised.  i was made fun of and beaten up a lot, until i grew taller and worked out enough to get up to a defensible size.  i still remember very vividly in earlier years, thinking that if i had a gun i would kill all the bullies who had made fun of me or beaten me up.  fortunately for me, my family believed in NOT having guns.

americans are racist, supremacist, and discriminate in every way... especially kids.  i would bet that 95% of these horrific public mass murders (especially at schools) are committed by kids who had been severely mistreated by their former classmates.  i wish these mistreated kids did not have access to guns, and instead were able to channel their frustration/sadness/hurt in a more constructive way. 

but unfortunately, when you combine the extremely cruel american school bullies with a universal availability of guns, the result is that the mentally and physically abused children using gun violence to carry out retribution and to end their own miserable existences.  guns do kill people in the wrong environment, and american schools are exactly that wrong environment.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:21 | 3136076 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

Wake up. Loon's only target shcool's that are "Gun Free Zones."No one can shoot back until kid's are dead.


Comment to your post, the Nerd's won't charge into a school where they will get punched in the eye or in the above case, shot in the eye. 

Fucking idiot.


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:44 | 3136985 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

I own guns.  I am a card carrying member of Gun Owners of America.  I like to think of myself as a Three Percenter.  That being said, guns and bullets are designed to kill animals and people.  A gun can be used against people in both offensive or defensive manner. 

Criminals and psychos tend to use guns in an offensive manner, which is why they are not allowed to own firearms under current gun laws.  The problem is criminals and psychos tend to ignore the law.

Law abiding citizens use guns for self-defense (against criminals, psychos and tyrants) and for sporting purposes like hunting and target shooting.

You cannot justify the disarming of the vast majority of law abiding citizens in a vain attempt to curb the violent behavior of criminals and pyschos.  Tyrants may try, but freemen will resists.

"Whenever the Legislators endeavor to take away, and destroy the Property of the People, or to reduce them to Slavery under Arbitrary Power, they put themselves into a state of War with the People, who are thereupon absolved from any farther Obedience, and are left to the common Refuge, which God hath provided for all Men, against Force and Violence. Whensoever therefore the Legislative shall transgress this fundamental Rule of Society, and either by Ambition, Fear, Folly or Corruption, endeavor to grasp themselves, or put into the hands of any other an Absolute Power over the Lives, Liberties, and Estates of the People; By this breach of Trust they forfeit the Power the People had put into their hands, for quite contrary ends, and it devolves to the People, who have a Right to resume their original Liberty."  John Locke

"Any single man must judge for himself whether circumstances warrant obedience or resistance to the commands of the civil magistrate; we are all qualified, entitled, and morally obliged to evaluate the conduct of our rulers. This political judgment, moreover, is not simply or primarily a right, but like self-preservation, a duty to God. As such it is a judgment that men cannot part with according to the God of Nature. It is the first and foremost of our inalienable rights without which we can preserve no other."  John Locke

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:28 | 3136099 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

I junked ya for bein' a crybaby. You might even be gay, I dunno.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:38 | 3136163 Badabing
Badabing's picture


I can relate,

I also was the first born in America from immigrants.

My parents spoke very little English and had a very thick accent. That accent was reflected in the way I pronounced words, I was skinny had glasses bucktoothed but couldn’t afford braces until later in life. And yes, I was picked on in school by bullies. But where we differ is my family owned guns and that was one of the reasons my family immigrated. And yes I wanted revenge but morals and good upbringing kept me from doing anything foolish.  

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:57 | 3136266 Jreb
Jreb's picture

And the key is... parents doing the right thing and actually parenting. Instilling values and mentoring is the key to keeping kids out of shit and the psych ward.

So simple but lost on so many.

BTW - I am a white guy who had the absolute shit kicked out of him by a bunch of non white teenagers when he was a kid becasue his skin was the wrong color and he was too dumb to know that whtiey shouldn't walk into certain places in town. My parents - having taught me that you judge people by the "content of their character" and not the color of their skin - failed to mention that others might not think the same way. I learned a lot that day but never developed the "urge" to run out and hurt other people. Sad that some minds are so weak.

Cry me a river china boy - we all live in our own sweet hell.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 12:50 | 3136812 americhinaman
americhinaman's picture

So you never thought of revenge or the "urge" to hurt those who beat you?  That seems doubtful to me; Great parenting doesn't take away the human urge for revenge, particularly in a child's mind.  My guess is that you never received a proper beating, and it sounds like you could avoid certain places in town after your bad experience.

Anyways, I believe many of the kids who go crazy have taken abuse both at school and home... the Sandy Hook killer also killed his mother, if I recall correctly.  That suggests that after being abused at school, his mother piled it on at home.  If I'm right, then I don't believe anyone would have a "strong mind" enough so to overcome that situation. 

I have been bloodied, broken, and knocked unconscious, but never shed a tear on account of beatings except once after waking up in a hospital.  I was not crying about my personal situation.  I was explaining why school gun massacres happen so frequently in the US, and why they will continue to happen.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 12:14 | 3136656 americhinaman
americhinaman's picture

Have you been beaten to the point of being sent to a hospital, severely bloodied, broken ribs, sprained spine, broken facial bones, in plain view of teachers who told police they didn't see anything despite watching with fascination how badly you could be injured?  Was the mental abuse you took anywhere close to that?  I would not count on most children to be able to fall back to family values in situations like that, and unfortunately I know that such experiences are fairly common in America's schools.

I would bet that most school gun violence involves children who had similar experiences at ages before morals and reasoning dominated their thinking.  Your point is valid too; when comparing these kids' access to guns vs. the steadfastness of their morals in the face of abuse, the easy access to guns and violent revenge is often stronger than whatever morals they have been able to pick up by then.

Point is, If there are guns available to children who experience severe abuse at the hands of classmates and teachers, then it opens up a world of violent possibilities, and it's this toxic combination of abuse and gun availability (and morals that are overridden by beatings and humilation) that leads to gun massacres at American schools.  Without such easy access to guns, abused schoolchildren would not be able to go on killing rampages so easily.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 15:05 | 3137449 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

I wonder how many potential bullies think about Columbine and take pause before harassing a potential victim?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:27 | 3136948 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Fuck you, americhinaman. I got picked on in grade school due to being small for my age. I've had my own gun in my room, with ammo, since I was 8 years old. I never once thought of taking it to school and shooting a bully.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:45 | 3137027 Freddie
Freddie's picture

If you grew up in China during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s or 1970s - you would probably be dead.  30 million people were killed by the govt.    If you lived in Cambodia during 1975 to 1979 you probably would have also been murdered by the government.   Pol Pot killed about 1.5 million of his "people." These poor Asian serfs were disarmed.

Oh and please save me about this Americans are racist bullshit.  You Asians are among the biggest racist arseholes in the world because you have been killing each other for thousands of years.  The Chinese hate the Japanese and the Koreans hate the Japanese and the Cambodians and Vietnamese are too dark skinned.  The Koreans are smarter than the Chinese and the bullshit is endless.  The Chinese are compulsive gamblers and the Japanese think they are superior. You people have been at this shit forever and it never stops. 

Go to any Asian message board and all of these people hate each other.  You all hate each other and are basically the same people.

Everybody in high school gets bullied.  You should have learned kung fu or something dumbass.  Kid on powerful mind altering drugs is the common thread in these shootings along with violent video games and movies.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 11:07 | 3136330 crshinn
crshinn's picture

A revolver is not a semiautomatic.  Semiautomatic refers to the automatic reloading mechanism where when you fire a round the mechanism automatically ejects the spent casing and reloads another round from the magazine.  Semiautomatic has absolutely nothing to do with firing rate as typically stated or insinuated in the MSM (one pull of the trigger=one bullet fired).

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 11:55 | 3136571 Badabing
Badabing's picture

yes it can be

and i upped you anyway

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:49 | 3137046 DosZap
DosZap's picture


A revolver is not a semiautomatic.

So true, however the NEW legislation declares they ARE semi automatics.

The end of the story is about CONTROL.

They even want to Ban shotguns, (PUMP shotguns).

Anyone with a Right Mind, knows EXACTLY where this is headed and why.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:58 | 3135825 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

And those that can't get one can make their own as the IRA did in Northern Ireland. Point is that if I want a weapon, if I am desperate enough I can make one, in my garage or my front room if I need to and so can anyone else. But why would you go to all that trouble if you didn't absolutely need to? The instant you pulled out your home made pistol or your designer SMG made from angle iron and steel pipe everyone would fall about laughing UNLESS of course you intended to use it.

There is no good reason why any and every idiot should have an absolute right to a gun in a peaceful society.

Fact is I choose to live in an environment wher I don't need any weapons in the full knowledge that ity would take me maybe two days tops to build my own handgun if I needed to.

frankly I would rather no body else in my vicinity had access to guns either.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:26 | 3135900 espirit
espirit's picture


How did you get on the internet while being housed by the Department of Corrections?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:28 | 3135917 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Yeah, bet you thought you could only shoot bullets from guns didn't you...

Think again.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:55 | 3135999 taxpayer102
taxpayer102's picture



harlequin "has many attributes of the clown with the addition of mischievious intrigue".  On ZH he's a troll.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:59 | 3136014 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

a troll being defined as anyone who doesn't agree with the general ZH opinion, eh...

Nice to be noticed though...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:46 | 3135972 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

Answer me this: 

What is it with the European women and the TEXAS cock?

Big money offers coming for real men is the talk of the town lately.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:51 | 3135988 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I think they like bigger ones...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:08 | 3136043 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

Yeah versus the 12 thousand fucking gun deaths in the US moron.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:42 | 3135963 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

How abaout a flame thrower....   Cleaner for you?



Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:51 | 3135974 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Well it would certainly get rid of the leftover goo.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:42 | 3135802 CH1
CH1's picture


Thank you.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 19:07 | 3138753 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Theres more C...many more, I'm just gettin cranked up ;-)

I don't think I duplicated any, if I did, scratch em...

Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.
Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
Jarred Viktor, age 15, stabbed his grandmother 61 times after 5 days on Paxil.
Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.
A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..
A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.
Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.
Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) - school shooting in El Cajon, California

Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.
Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.
Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)

Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002,
(Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)

Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.

Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”

Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School - then he committed suicide.

Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:54 | 3135818 monoloco
monoloco's picture

The least we can do is arm the children so they can protect themselves from drug adled pschopaths.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:12 | 3135856 bentaxle
bentaxle's picture

Add, "Dunblane massacre" to the list at a School in the Scottish town in 1996. Interestingly Tennis star Andy Murray happened to be an 8 year old pupil there at the time.

But hey, it's not guns that kill people, it's the bullets! Lead is also responsible for making people crazy. There's a distinct correlation between a reduction in crime and a reduction in people's exposure to lead! I say let people have guns.....just don't give 'em any lead bullets!

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:23 | 3135897 carlnpa
carlnpa's picture

This report is the dirt from the drug industry itself, compiled for NIH on the link between SSRI, suicide, agression, hostility.


22 Appendix XV: Results of random-effects models .............................................. 125

23 Appendix XVI: Stratification of worsening (outcome 6) by premature

discontinuation................................................................................................................ 127

24 Appendix XVII: Treatment-emergent hostility or agitation............................... 128

24.1 Frequency of treatment emergent hostility or agitation by drug, indication, and

trial 128

25 Appendix XVIII: Stratification of the primary outcome (outcome 3) by history of

suicide attempt at baseline .............................................................................................. 130


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:29 | 3135919 trav777
trav777's picture

why do you cite FOURTEEN murders out of 100,000?!?!

WTF is the matter with you people?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 19:12 | 3138767 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Some of us have to work, dumbass...look up, I put some more up for you.

Or would you like me to clog up the entire thread?

Most murders are done by criminals killing criminals...idiot...whether with a gun or not.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:21 | 3136923 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"Science" of Psychiatry predominately Jooze (Freud, et al).  Pharmaceutical industry bosses predominately Jooze.

It's a Brave New World we live in.

"Community, Identity, Stability" is the motto of Aldous Huxley's utopian World State. Here everyone consumes daily grams of soma, to fight depression, babies are born in laboratories, and the most popular form of entertainment is a "Feelie," a movie that stimulates the senses of sight, hearing, and touch. Though there is no violence and everyone is provided for, . . ."

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 07:37 | 3135732 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

Gun rights in the 1800s (i.e. the 2nd Amendment) are the same as they are today. It purposely makes no inclusion/exclusion references of any kind:

"....the right of the people to KEEP and BEAR arms, shall NOT be infringed."


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:11 | 3135769 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I'm trying to think of a good reason why they shouldn't have access to nuclear weapons.

No, keeps coming back to the same reason why they shouldn't have guns either.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:50 | 3135811 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

No, no, no.  The problem is not the weaponry, the problem is that these people that snap and go off killing innocents are walking around with the rest of us.  Lock 'em the fuck up in an institution somewhere and bury the fucking key in the ruins of Fukushima.  And if they kill?  That's what the death penalty is for...not for "deterrence", but to prevent murderous individuals from ever taking another life.  Most of us have access to items that could be used to kill someone, but most of us don't go out and kill people for shits and giggles.  Take the real danger out of the equation...the people that harm other people, and not the items that people use to harm other people.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:01 | 3135832 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

You mean like futurecrime?

But doesn't that impinge on your liberties?

How do you lock someone up for something they 'might' do?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:17 | 3135872 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

The same way you confiscate an inanimate object that "might" harm you.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:35 | 3135942 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

You mean like 'Wacky backy"?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:11 | 3135857 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

Do you believe the government should be allowed to have nuclear weapons?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:20 | 3135884 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 11:04 | 3136307 Jreb
Jreb's picture

A little meth in your crack today?

The average human being in North America or Europe with a gun is no threat to anyone - 99.999% of us are peaceful and priductive people.

Most governments in the western world (and elsewhere) are sociopathic in nature - and you are NOT conerned about them having weapons of mass destruction?

Uhhmmmm.... if it is a concern for human life you have you might want to check your logic...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:17 | 3136903 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Not so. You can't 'uninvent' them. It seems foolish to think we shouldn't have them.

and not a little naive...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:54 | 3137061 Jreb
Jreb's picture

Uninvent? What the heck are you talking about???

I am asking a moral question - if the preservation of human life is your goal then why do we LET governments have nukes or any WMD?

I'm trying to point out the flaw in your logic. Can't you see it? Think about it.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:18 | 3136910 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

If its so horrendous to contemplate the thought of ordinary people owning nuclear weapons, why is it more morally acceptable for a metastasizing government (that clearly operates in its own self-interest) to own them?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:35 | 3136130 CH1
CH1's picture

I'm trying to think of a good reason why they shouldn't have access to nuclear weapons.

If you want an actual answer, it's because it massively endangers your nieghbors. An oops with a gun or knife is a very local problem. An oops with a nuke is a MUCH different thing... not to mention the radiation.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 11:56 | 3136587 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

How about saying no you can't defend yourself or your property to the 60,000 + who chase off an attacker(s) or home invader(s) every year. Most attackers and home invaders flee just at the sight of an armed defender without a shot being fired.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:17 | 3135778 negative rates
negative rates's picture

You are correct, but it is still the gvt policy's  who are the one's who promote gun violence. Where as gun manufactors are given low interest money to create such destructive products. If we heavily taxed any more than a single shot, they would crow "we can't afford to produce and sell a gun at that cost"

At which I would reply "Good, we don't want you to make the killin gun".

And so the problem is solved.....Execpt for our gvt! 

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:06 | 3135838 negative rates
negative rates's picture

What people obviously don't relize, is that someone else is always going to make a bigger badder killin machine than the one you make and hold true. So when that  day does arrive, (even though you have the baddest and the best), it will still pale in comparason to the weapon about to be used on you. So in the end, you can't hide from trouble.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:26 | 3135906 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Poll taxes were deemed illegal because taxing one's ability to vote was a violation/restriction of one's right to vote, or so the SCOTUS said. I would suggest that taxing arms (weapons, that is) and associated consumables (arrows, bullets, etc.) should be treated the same way.

I really wish that those who want to overturn the 2nd Amendment would admit it and work toward that end rather than indulge in all the subterfuge and incrementalism. Of course, that would not work, so they have to obfuscate.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:30 | 3135927 trav777
trav777's picture

you obviously seem to be focused on GUN violence, and have nothing to say about all other forms.

Ask the UK about how the gun ban is working.

Why the fuck should ANYONE care about GUN violence?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:48 | 3135980 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Sure, all violence is bad, even justifiable homicide which invites itself. But  he seems to like it, for now, so he must be met with violence. Since we already know he don't want to talk seriously anymore, about anything execpt but what he is interested in. Because they are the entitled ones, and as such, already know, and have accounted for everthing published under the sun, and therefore have no need to converse with us.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 12:01 | 3136605 Agent P
Agent P's picture

Ask CHICAGO how the gun ban is working.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:41 | 3135800 duo
duo's picture

I suppose when the Army had muzzle loaders, the citizens having muzzle loaders also was considered being "armed".

My 1917 Enfield is a "military style" weapon, being standard issue in the Great War.  It's as good as a pitchfork against an AR-15, or Feinstein's door-to-door gun grab.

"Arms" must at least consider the march of technology.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:05 | 3135837 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Exactly. Arms serve no useful purpose other than to require the police or army to come at you with even bigger weapons and guns...

Seems to me there's a lack of people who complain about taxes or bank bailouts actually doing anything about it even with these guns...

If you are actually going to arm yourself so that you can defend your Constitution then do so, and fucking defend it. All we hear at the moment is bullshit and silence. No shooting. What's the point?

Might as well give them up.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:10 | 3135855 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

If you are actually going to arm yourself so that you can defend your Constitution then do so, and fucking defend it. All we hear at the moment is bullshit and silence. No shooting. What's the point?...that is the question of the day the frog is not boiled enough, it will take a spark such as concord.bunker hill did in the colonial america. america waits for the next concord bridge.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:34 | 3135934 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

If I was a betting man, or woman, which I am but only when I know I'm going to win, I'd say not.

I don't think any American will do jack shit to defend that Constitution. If there is a crisis that sparks a revolt I'd say the cause will be food, or a general lack of it such as was the cause of the French Revolution.

Fact is that all this talk of Constitution is just that. Talk.

And you don't need guns to do that.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:36 | 3135946 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Arms can be used to defend oneself against criminals, not just against gun-grabbing police (who, in my opinion, would actually be criminals at that point).

Your second sentence seems to be wondering why law-abiding citizens, fed up with taxes and other forms of corruption, don't use guns to rectify the situation. Are you suggesting open, widespread rebellion? That sort of action would not work very well when done by individuals, because it would render them criminals. There are laws. If the laws don't work properly, the first recourse is to make them work or make them more effective. The American resistance to the British prior to the Revolution did not start with murdering British overlords. How many died at the Boston Tea Party? Outright rebellion came later.

I suggest you move to a place where citizens may not own weapons. Communist China comes to mind as an appropriate place for people who are willing to trade liberty for (the illusion of) security. 

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:53 | 3135970 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

There are many other places where one can live in peace and security without guns. I thought I had made it clear that I already have moved to a place where people cannot own guns. By choice.

Fact is like it or not you don't need them.

People keep referring back to tyrany and British rule as justification for the right to own guns but the simple fact is that you have been raped by your government and none of you gun totting freedom lovers has done anything about it with these guns you seem to crave. I don't advocate rebellion, far from it. I just don't see the point in you lot having guns and putting my family at risk when you're supposed as you say to be living in a peaceful society.

'There are laws. If the laws don't work properly, the first recourse is to make them work or make them more effective.' - well said.

You don't need guns to do that.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:08 | 3135843 espirit
espirit's picture

Enfields are still the fastest bolt action in existence.  Guess that I could carry my skills, assets, and firearms to the future nation/state of TEXAS, where (oil + guns = FU ).

That is if they will have me.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:18 | 3136066 duo
duo's picture

Lee Harvey was pretty good with a bolt action.  Just sayin'

If you're productive, come on down to TX and help us spend the $5.1B surplus before the legislature gives it all away to Rick Perry's cronies.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:14 | 3135772 ATM
ATM's picture

tell that to Hiram Maxim or Dr. Richard Gatling you dumbass. Neither would have understood your twisted understanding of a limit to individual right to arm themselves which the law does't and never intended to do. 

In fact the law specifically limits the power of government from fucking with the peoples rights, but communist assholes will always tell us the same shit you peddle.

Fuck off.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 04:41 | 3135580 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

interesting arguments, though I don't think that the right to bear arms has to be founded on arguments

this right is historic - a freeman is only to be considered as such if he can bear arms - period

this goes back to the Romans - though note that they made the difference between arms inside (forbidden) and outside (a citizen's right) the city walls (consider this a big hint to the fact that there are always other citizens that request some forms of restriction on arms, and this has a lot to do with population density)

though there are more ugly truths

one of them is that the US pro-guns advocates have by now a completely different culture and language - and propaganda - than the "gun grabbers". which is getting more and more unintelligible for people outside this culture

note the use of the word "globalist" (for which there still is no clear definition inside the US and it's inexistent outside it)

note your use of the "...subservience to the UN...", which is another "sounds good, let's use it on the uninformed" piece of propaganda that leads to readers like me to spontaneously think that you are either hopelessly uninformed, a crank or just disingenuos (particularly because you seem, from your own words, to be aware of the US dominance on this globe)

add the breathlessness of discussions involving guns - the sheer rage behind it that scares the "lambs". Bad PR, at least

as long as there is this culture war in the US with two sides refusing to even speak the same language, i.e. to use the same definitions in their vocabulary, this will continue to look like a gunfight between two blind men: dangerous, silly and possibly leading nowhere

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 07:03 | 3135694 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

I agree with your comments.

I am acutely aware of the situation, and although my use of the words "subservience to the UN" may seem benign in their context, I am however, completely attune to its' significance, both now and into one possible future.

On the nature of my language, I mix orientation and bias so as not to give away my true thoughts. I write passively and aggressively. I choose to argue both sides, but not my own beliefs...but there are more than two sides, and I'm not of two opinions, I'm of many minds on this matter.

That being said, an orientation of belief and mental stance, based upon sound collective morality, is a viewpoint that is difficult to find while drudging through this swamp. This is an ethical Hydra.

I know I am living through the most profound period in human history...possibly of all time (outcome dependant).

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 07:24 | 3135723 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

imho perhaps you are living through the most profound period in US history, perhaps also in the AngloSphere - not necessarily of all human history

though I start to think that this US gun debate will outlive us both - just note how old is it by now, how well entrenched both positions are, and how well the whole debate promotes arms sales

around this "globalism" - which outside of the US is probably better explained as "internationalism", the US has the most curious position: while hundreds of other countries find it easy to commit themselves to all kind of treaties, the US is often the one "unique" country that positions itself often as founder or key promoter of an international agreement just to back out when it comes to ratification

and this goes back to the League of Nations up to the Geneva Conventions and so forth

do you have an easy understandable explanation for this? I have only this: the mentioned culture war and an humungous amount of disingenuos propaganda, coupled to extreme unprincipled political opportunism and lack of general respect

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:32 | 3135933 trav777
trav777's picture

secession or war in the US is inevitable.

The sides are too far apart.

one side wants diversity and gun bans and nanny state and the other wants to go nearly the opposite direction.  There's no common ground.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:41 | 3135958 ATM
ATM's picture

Is the "opposite direction" personal liberty, personal responsibility without the threat of a tyranical government controlling our personal lives?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:56 | 3136007 jonan
jonan's picture

i sure as fuck hope so! (with respect to one side choosing liberty over slavery)

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:40 | 3137016 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

The so-called "Free World" or "The West" has been conquered by the Americans.  This especially includes Western Europe.  Nothing important is decided there without American approval.  Why else is there so many American military bases and guns there?

Perhaps if the Republicans in Spain had been better armed and supplied with ammunition, the Spanish Civil War might have turned out quite differently?  Do you not agree that the history of Spain for the 40 years Franco was in power was especially dismal?  The real problem today is the Fascists are much better armed than those that would prefer not to be subjects of serfdom and summary "justice".

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 16:32 | 3138001 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

FeralSerf, in Spain during their Civil War everybody was delivering all sides plenty of weapons

the Fascist governments used their fleets to land Franco's Africa Corps to the Spanish mainland, and gave them artillery, ammunitions, fighters and even bombers

the Socialists organizations all over Europe and Communist governments - including the Soviet Union - armed and provided fresh volunteers for the Republican side, including artillery

without the German and Italian direct intervention Franco would have lost

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:00 | 3135759 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

ghordius, your posts are not as wrong or insensitive as other eu trolls here..but mate you do not support a NWO elite is attacking the citizens of the world both by pushing treaty-regulation UN, EU, DAVOS, CFR,IMF,BIS, I have posted before the common mistake of EU taxunits, serfs if you like, is the same as a fish being told it's have been long since brain washed into thinking the state has all the rights and powers..citizens are to obey. not so much here in ignorant fly over AMERICA. we will keep our weapons and you who live outside the STATES  can go to hell. stay out of an issue you have no right to be posting on. your other EU  posters here are best to shut up this is an AMERICAN issue, stay out of it.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:30 | 3135788 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I post what I think, and by that I also probe it's validity

treaties are like laws, in fact a ratification uses the lawmaking process, so it's like "sharing laws" between nations

I support the cause of those who wish to keep their arms in the US according to their constitution, and I have harsh words for those who just forward empty propaganda

the whole treaty-regulation BS is just that, empty propaganda, for one simple reason: treaties have to be constitutional

"get out of US affairs" is a bit... well, let's ask how far I would get if I'd state here "you have no right to comment on european matters if you are not european"?

in fact, as far as I know the servers that host this blog are in Europe...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:34 | 3135794 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

ghordius, you have a good mind and use it well..americans with gun rights here in america is unique issue..many of the programs and positions of the EU/UN affect the whole world, but those that are unique to EU and have no impact on the world are your issues and I do not post on them. IF  you can explain why legal gun ownership in America has any real effect on the taxunits/serfs of the EU. you might have a point. I think if anyone from the EU can make the case AMERICAN gun rights impact the EU, you can.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:09 | 3135849 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

America's policies affect the whole world - hell, this very debate is distracting you from more serious matters, particularly from my point of view that it's made to distract - too valuable for that, and so meant to go on forever

and this empty propaganda that leads you to think that the world wants to change America is also a serious matter - most of the world wants America to have a commitment on it's behaviour outside it's borders

one example: the Geneva Conventions regarding prisoners of war (forbidding torture, etc.)

lots of terrorism all over the planet for a couple of guys in Washington who think kidnapping foreigners all over the globe and giving them a Guantanamo Treatment is not an international matter but also definitely not an US national matter

put it simply: we wish for your political leaders to respect the law - either the shared international ones or your national ones. since Dubya, they have stopped doing so, big style

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:12 | 3135861 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

ghordius, respect for law is the last thing your leaders or ours have in mind. if you agree giving up your guns was not the best decision, was it.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:21 | 3135889 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

you write as if we would have no weapons at all, the same military set-up and the same kind of leaders

this is the continent of revolutions, of demonstrations and toppling of disliked governments

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:47 | 3135973 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

ghordius, if you could answer my question and not go beating the bushes lol with other issues would be helpful, again what is a serf of the EU, doing posting on this AMERICAN far you disappoint me.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 12:50 | 3136790 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

because I'm NOT a serf. I am a free man. And a citizen. and I care

and I believe in political discussion being better than fighting

and I get mad when a few propagandists paint the whole world as "what is trying to get at us" in America, because it's a LIE

those "anti-globalists" / anti-internationalists / anti-treaty / anti-UN / anti-EU propagandists are lying to you,

and smearing us, the rest of the world

just look how easily you call me an "EU-Serf". How this? Where did you get this idea?

I find it's reason enough

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:49 | 3137044 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." --Thomas Jefferson

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." Denis Diderot

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:14 | 3136895 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

btw, would you prefer me to pose as a super-hot gal from Nebraska? many of the EU-Trolls you are talking about aren't europeans at all

three quarters of the German sounding nicks ZH commentators haven't ever seen Germany in their life, for example

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:40 | 3137017 Klazy Plick
Klazy Plick's picture

The truth is that the American Revolution is ongoing.  It is not an event in History from start date A to end date B.  The big problem is that our govenment officials are trying to end it.  We are in constant revolt against the banalities of officialdom's frailties when it comes to securing and maintaining the highest level of unmolested independent human dignity.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 05:34 | 3135654 The Heart
The Heart's picture

HUGE kudos and compliments for speaking your hearts truth to power so well.

Truly, it is an honor to be here amongst so many great writers that are now coming forth in such grand and exquisite expressionary forms.

Thank you good Heart for this fine collection in simplistic terminological and easy to understand words.

Stay tuned for the message to come on unity.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 04:50 | 3135602 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

You don't know the meaning of the word righteous.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 06:41 | 3135697 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

You don't believe a righteous man can defend himself?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:49 | 3135982 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

Was Jesus righteous? Did he defend himself?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 13:31 | 3136967 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Are you the son of God?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 19:20 | 3138795 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

Are you a moron?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 00:50 | 3135240 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

taxes don't kill economies. Politicians abusing taxes kill economies

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:08 | 3135292 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Guns don't kill people, I do. So whoever tried to cut a hole in my roof and

break in to my house while I was away, please come and visit me when I am

at home. I will deliver you to your maker for a do-over with my S&W 44MAG.

P.S> I don't miss.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:45 | 3135358 Some Bloke
Some Bloke's picture

Why? It's easier to break in when you aren't there.

And how many have you already killed to know that "PS You dont miss".  Americano + gun = brave, fearless hero...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:46 | 3135360 Some Bloke
Some Bloke's picture

Why? It's easier to break in when you aren't there.

And how many have you already killed to know that "PS You dont miss".  Americano + gun = brave, fearless hero...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 04:50 | 3135603 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

Go back to GREECE.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:19 | 3135311 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

People using guns kill more than people not using guns.  Guns make it easier for people to kill other people.  The Second Amendment was never intended to facilitate armed rebellion.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:26 | 3135322 delacroix
delacroix's picture

guns are pretty popular for suicides too. maybe we should ask why more U.S. soldiers die at their own hand, than in battle with the enemy.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:50 | 3135368 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

The real answer to your question, should you actually want it, is that we've made war so safe for our soldiers through the use of technology and information that now suicides are notable in comparison.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:54 | 3135374's picture

You evade the question of why hard working and dedicated young men would want to kill themselves in the first place.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 02:21 | 3135421 Freddie
Freddie's picture

The Mu*lim has dumped these kids in Afghan with no mission and they cannot shoot back.  He set up Seal Team 6 as well.  They don't even count their votes - these evil MF'ers.

The Pentagon, DIA and Joint Chiefs are cowards.  They are not upholding The Constitution along with the courts and Congress. 

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 02:26 | 3135430's picture

Bush is a Muslim? Who knew?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 06:51 | 3135704 BigDuke6
BigDuke6's picture

Its news to Freddie.


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:05 | 3136036 jonan
jonan's picture

so safe that drone pilots halfway around the world blow up foreign children and yell, "high score!"

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 02:03 | 3135387 Hook Line and S...
Hook Line and Sphincter's picture

"Suicides accounted for 55% of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."

Who would notice another 435?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:28 | 3135326 fuu
fuu's picture

People using cars kill more people than people using guns. We don't even have a Constitutional Right to those!

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:42 | 3135339 mdonato
mdonato's picture

That is precisely what the 2nd Ammendment was intended to facilitate.

Otherwise when a government becomes hostile to its citizens, how else are you going to alter or abolish it?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 04:54 | 3135610 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

And how are you going to defend yourself against cluster bombs, depleted uranium shells and air attack? Wake up you loser.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 05:52 | 3135668 Socratic Dog
Socratic Dog's picture

Umm, tell that to the North Koreans.  The Vietnamese.  The Iraqis.  The Afghanis.

Who did you say was the loser?  The people you likely despise set you an example you cannot fathom.  They have testicles, you have a vulva.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 06:45 | 3135701 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Hah - didn't you realize that Lloydie is actually Assad? He forgot to mention that those who oppose the Government go to hell.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:53 | 3135995 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

"Hah - didn't you realize that Lloydie is actually Assad? He forgot to mention that those who oppose the Government go to hell."

They're all in hell amigo.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:51 | 3135987 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

"Umm, tell that to the North Koreans.  The Vietnamese.  The Iraqis.  The Afghanis.

Who did you say was the loser?  The people you likely despise set you an example you cannot fathom.  They have testicles, you have a vulva."

And yet every weekend you dream of licking vulva.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:23 | 3136080 fuu
fuu's picture

Not yours though.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 11:19 | 3136389 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

You like dog vulva?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:19 | 3135880 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

The Second Amendment was never intended to facilitate armed rebellion.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:27 | 3135910 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

The Second Amendment was never intended to facilitate armed rebellion.

I would suggest you spend a few hours at and study up a bit. I am sure you will lead the charge to dismantle the Jefferson Memorial upon reading the thoughts of the so-called father of the Democratic Party. He heartily disagreed with you, and *double bonus* was a close ally of Madison, who wrote the words you misapprehend. 

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:35 | 3135941 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

The Constitution specifically gives the federal government summary power to throw armed rebels in jail forever without due process (Art. I, Sec. 9), so it cannot be true that the Second Amendment was intended to facilitate armed rebellion.  The Heller opinion says that the Second Amendment was intended by Anti-Federalists to preserve the ideal of the citizen's militia, not to enable armed rebellion.  Armed rebellion is not a "lawful purpose" for the keeping and bearing of arms.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:47 | 3135359's picture


The Second Amendment was never intended to facilitate armed rebellion.


The Supreme Court held:[43]

(1) The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:54 | 3135371 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Apparently reading isn't your strong suit.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 01:56 | 3135376's picture

Apparently you are confused as always.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 02:16 | 3135413 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Just stop CA, you cannot convince these people, it will come out in the wash, no worries.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 02:22 | 3135423's picture

The Second Amendment is great but I'm still going to leverage the First Amendment while I can.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 02:58 | 3135478 Banksters
Banksters's picture

xenofrog you are as thick as that fuckwit trav.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:20 | 3135703 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture


my bad


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 02:27 | 3135431 Freddie
Freddie's picture

There is no right in The Constitution for drug companies to make or sell powerful mind altering drugs and dangerous anti-depressants (Prozac and others) for kids and young adults with pretend ailments like ADHD and other BS. 

This ENTIRE class of drugs needs to be banned right now.  If it saves just one child's life - it is worth it.

Guns are protected under The Second Amendment.  Dangerous drugs are not protected under The Constitution.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 02:31 | 3135439's picture

Drug bans are not necessary. Folks simply need to stop seeing normal childhood behavior as a problem, stop trying to address problems with "simple" solutions like pills, stop trusting the physicians who prescribe admittedly dangerous medications and tell the government to get the hell out of their family affairs.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 03:45 | 3135540 Freddie
Freddie's picture

+1 Some of the problesm children have is due to poor diet (corn syrup in everything) and lack of exercise. Too much horrible TV and video games plus gadgets. 

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 05:12 | 3135639 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

That's right guns had nothing to do with it. Honestly don't be a fuckin moron.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 06:58 | 3135710 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Big News has cranked up the noise machine with the commencement of the Holmes trial out in CO. Still not a single mention of any psychotropics he may have been taking. We have read that medication was removed from his apartment, but unfortunately that corporation might be a sponsor of the nightly news. Priorities, you know.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:00 | 3135831 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

+1 I'd up you a thousand greens if I could.  Ritalin is no substitute for proper parenting.  Improper parenting is what causes all these behavioral problems that schools feel must be addressed by drugging the little bastards into submission.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 05:48 | 3135664 The Heart
The Heart's picture

Hey Freddie,

Check out this movie bro. Pass it around to people that need to know.

Making a Killing: The Untold Story of Psychotropic Drugging.:


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 04:23 | 3135571 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

Are you Fucking STUPID; or just fuckin' brain dead?!

The original, and current, intent of the second amendment was to allow any ordinary American citizen the opportunity and means to blow the fucking brains out of any politician, judge, lawyer, government functionary, or any other person that threatened what they believed was their fundamental right to existence...any time they wanted, any time that was ripe, any opportunity that presented itself...period.

That right extends to 'tards like you that have no concept of what the Constitution was all about.


Wed, 01/09/2013 - 05:26 | 3135615 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 03:23 | 3135571OldPhart

Old phart said:

"Are you Fucking STUPID; or just fuckin' brain dead?!

The original, and current, intent of the second amendment was to allow any ordinary American citizen the opportunity and means to blow the fucking brains out of any politician, judge, lawyer, government functionary, or any other person that threatened what they believed was their fundamental right to existence...any time they wanted, any time that was ripe, any opportunity that presented itself...period.

That right extends to 'tards like you that have no concept of what the Constitution was all about."

Is that what you call democracy in the US? Who's the effing retard?

Disagree with me and I'll shoot you? Wtf? Fuckin gun crazy ass.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 05:59 | 3135675 Socratic Dog
Socratic Dog's picture

Lloydie, your vulva gets in the way of your brain.  If you can just get over your love affair with authority for a moment, you might see that he is right.  No, it's not a democracy, it's a republic, and the second amendment is aimed at preserving that difference.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:59 | 3135826 Fedaykinx
Fedaykinx's picture

'twas indelicately put, yet squarely on the nubbin.  the second amendment guarantees that if good people become convinced their government is truly evil, there is no hiding from their wrath.  the rub is, human nature never changes and a free society must suffer its own defectives and malcontents having access to weapons.  as a counterbalance to the ever increasing authoritarian statism we've stupidly voted for ourselves it's a tradeoff i accept gladly.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:56 | 3136000 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

"Lloydie, your vulva gets in the way of your brain.  If you can just get over your love affair with authority for a moment, you might see that he is right.  No, it's not a democracy, it's a republic, and the second amendment is aimed at preserving that difference."

That's because you need a gun to pretend you have a dick.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:16 | 3135775 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

The Second Amendment was never intended to facilitate armed rebellion. -Bullshit! You are truly ignorant!


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure." 

Thomas Jefferson 

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 08:56 | 3135820 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

Yes, that is exactly why we have the second facilitate armed rebellion against an abusive and overreaching government.  The founding fathers had just fought a war to free themselves from the yoke of oppression, don't you know.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:37 | 3135951 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Respectfully, no, sir.  That is not why the Second Amendment was enacted.  The Second Amendment was enacted to allow citizen militias to defend their communities in the event of invasion, not to facilitate armed rebellion.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 10:27 | 3136098 Lloydie
Lloydie's picture

"Yes, that is exactly why we have the second facilitate armed rebellion against an abusive and overreaching government.  The founding fathers had just fought a war to free themselves from the yoke of oppression, don't you know."

Your pissy little AR ain't going to protect your ass. First, they'll take you out with some RPGs then they'll follow up with some gunships. After that they're going to cream you with napalm. Wake up you moron.

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