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The Dream Is Over As FAA Grounds Nightmareliner

Tyler Durden's picture


The pain for Boeing never stops. Just out from Reuters:

  • U.S. FAA says requiring airlines to temporarily stop flying Boeing's 787 Dreamliner. #BREAKING
  • FAA: Battery failures on Boeing 787s could damage critical systems and structures, spark fire, if not corrected
  • FAA: Will work with Boeing, airlines to develop corrective action plan to resume 787 operations as "quickly and safely as possible"
  • FAA: Decision to ground Boeing 787s prompted by second incident involving lithium ion battery failure
  • FAA: Will also examine Boeing 787 batteries as part of comprehensive review announced last week

So, will Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood (i.e., the US government) perhaps reassess his conclusion from last week that the Dreamliner is "safe" or perhaps this too is just more teething problems... Or merely an ultra aggressive case of industrial sabotage from EADS? In other news, perhaps it is time to find a more appropriate name for the Dreamliner?

Finally we are surprised how nobody has figured out this simple and brilliant solution yet: put Solyndra solar panels on all Dreamliners and call it a day.

For those interest, here is more from Reuters:

The Federal Aviation Administration said on Wednesday it would temporarily ground Boeing Co's 787s after a second incident involving battery failures caused one of the Dreamliner passenger jets to make an emergency landing in Japan.


The FAA said airlines would have to demonstrate that the lithium ion batteries involved were safe before they could resume flying Boeing's newest commercial airliner, but gave no details on when that could occur.


Boeing could not be immediately reached for comment.

Perhaps if Boeing had been reached for comment, it would have said: 'Shouldn't the FAA have ascertained the safety of the lithium ion batteries before clearing our airplane for flight after years and years of delays?

The use of new battery technology is among the cost-saving features of the 787, which Boeing says burns 20 percent less fuel than rival jetliners using older technology.

"Burns" being a great example of using the right word at the right time.


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Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:18 | 3160144 reTARD
reTARD's picture

LOL... that's precisely what I call them!

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:27 | 3160172 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture
Spruce Goose


wb7, get to work!

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:41 | 3160239 knukles
knukles's picture

Lucky Boeing... FAA's there to help you  :)

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:00 | 3160759 trav777
trav777's picture

this article is ridiculous hyperbole

where was the article for the 380's wing cracks after Qantas had an engine explosion?   They grounded their fleet.

Absurd nonsense from Durden trying to chum the waters.

It's a faulty BATTERY.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:15 | 3160819 Nassim
Nassim's picture

It's a faulty BATTERY.


For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:23 | 3160851 ACP
ACP's picture

No worries. This is bullish and here's why:

Every day BA takes a hit, the QE-fueled algos will bang it back up same day.

For days when there are too many sellers to bang it back up, they'll bang it back up the next day.

When the problems are finally resolved, no matter how long it takes, the algos will launch the stock into the stratosphere on the backs of the shorts.

Easy as pie...or cake, for Russian cosmonauts.


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 23:02 | 3160967 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

They should dub it the American Dreamliner, because if they keep flying it with the defects it has then it's inevitably going to crash and burn.

I am Chumbawamba.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 10:30 | 3162020 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Where is the Federal Dreamliner Reserve? - they need some central planners to simply print some new aircraft until the situation gets better.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 23:56 | 3161109 Esso
Esso's picture


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 04:47 | 3161493 mr_T
mr_T's picture

Next up...
AIRBUS A350XWB first flight will be this year.
Another composite airliner like the 787.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 08:40 | 3161657 aint no fortuna...
aint no fortunate son's picture


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 23:27 | 3161039 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Did those batteries come from Dell by any chance?

Oh, and why don't they just eject the batteries from the plane if they catch fire.  "Get ready to eject the core, Scotty!"


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 00:28 | 3161146 Manthong
Manthong's picture

I love the smell of burning lithium-ion in the morning..

Seriously, I have a seven figure frequent flyer total and I will only get excited if they ever introduce a seating configuration that is designed to accomodate people with arms and reclining seats that respect the airspace over my lap.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 03:11 | 3161427 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture


That configuration is called first class. Cash in some of those miles, amigo!

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:13 | 3161273 Corbeck
Corbeck's picture

Not as funny as you might think. Some airliners are engineered such that a battery, in "thermal runaway", will melt it's way out of the aircraft through "non-critical" structures. It was a design parameter written in blood, as a corporate aircraft's battery melted its way out through "critical structures". The incident ended badly.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 00:52 | 3161229 azengrcat
azengrcat's picture

Are you a Boeing DERp or just a BAg holder?  Either way the qual testing was obviously garbage.  100% of the responsibility is on the system integrator who comes up with test requirements regardless of the FAA giving "special conditions" for certification.  I wonder if any of the composite fatigue life testing had any thermal cycling omissions?

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 03:18 | 3161432 Matt
Matt's picture

It seems the batteries may not be defective. It is simply the fact that they are Lithium Ion batteries (original, commonly Lithium Cobalt Oxide). On the packaging, it specifically states they cannot be shipped by air. It seems Lithium Ion batteries cannot handle changes in altitude, and may catch fire as a result.

If this is correct, it indicates that there is no manufacturing flaw, but rather, that no one involved in the battery program actually knows anything about the batteries themselves.

Using a newer battery design, such as Lithium Polymer, or preferably Lithium Ferro-Phosphate, would prevent / solve this problem. As a bonus, Lithium Cobalt Oxide is self-oxidizing, meaning they cannot be extinguished once ignited.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:09 | 3161259 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

"U.S., others ground Boeing Dreamliner indefinitely"


No mention in the article if Japan bought that 'extended warranty plan' they always try to sell you. In any case, I hope Japan kept their receipt. 

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:07 | 3161261 Dugald
Dugald's picture

Change the damned batteries.........

There!  fixed!

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:59 | 3161343 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Where you been Trav? Did you just get out of jail again?

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 04:36 | 3161487 philipat
philipat's picture

@Trav777 "It's a faulty BATTERY"

HELLOOOOOO, It's a fauly battery which CATCHES FIRE. If that happens Mid-Atlantic or MId-Pacific, you might not want to be on board. I have recently rescheduled several Tans-Pacific flights to avoid the 787 and, instead, fly on your eponym. Incidentally, I was also fastidious in avoiding the 380 when the engines were disintegarting and the wings falling off. It's just this cute self-preservation thing that I have. Of course, it's your call....

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 10:37 | 3162048 trav777
trav777's picture

the battery will be replaced.

The 777 had issues when it first came out as well.  This is typical.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 07:15 | 3161593 schatzi
schatzi's picture

You have a valid point. Hyperbole abounds, will hit the stock price and eventually recover. They have issues no doubt: the aircraft is lastest generation, yet core competences were outsourced. Highly outsourced plane production using latest technology is asking for trouble. Issues I assume will eventually get sorted.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:25 | 3160860 AgAu_man
AgAu_man's picture

For those who actually know something about the Aerospace industry -- and I do -- they'd know that the FAA is nothing but 0.1 mm short of a complete farce.  They are run by a bunch of 'entitlement bureaucrats', with a work-pace/ethic of a sloth on vacation.

They could have and should have done their due diligence in certifying this beforehand, i.e. they "voted for it, before they voted against it".  Dumb asses!  Although calling them "dumb donkeys" seems redundant.

What the FAA is world-class at is:  Their own job security.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 23:04 | 3160977 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

"the FAA is nothing but 0.1 mm short of a complete farce.  They are run by a bunch of 'entitlement bureaucrats', with a work-pace/ethic of a sloth on vacation."

Why, it's almost as if it was government agency!

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 08:02 | 3161621 Dieselclam
Dieselclam's picture

The FAA's oversight is from the D.O.T. Inspector General. Guess who they report to? Congress/Senate Transportation Committee bureaucrats. If anyone thinks they can be taken seriously as a whistle blower with that bunch, they should consider how fast a phone call to
a top bureaucrat could generate another phone call suggesting that the I.G. have an immediate investigation of career self-preservation instead of investigating complaints.

Major airframe manufacturers have their own employees designated as FAA reps, btw. Engineers are above reproach....

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:42 | 3160245 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Dreamliner is just a loss-leader to give Boeing an air of respectability .... Don't cry for them; they'll somehow manage to get by on the defense contracts.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:28 | 3160419 Catflappo
Catflappo's picture

"air of respectability" seems just the wrong turn of phrase?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:02 | 3160765 trav777
trav777's picture

um, the 787 will turn Boeing a profit...the order book is very deep.  It's a great plane, true gamechanger.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:32 | 3160200 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

One can only hope that Ray Lahood was long BA.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:00 | 3160316 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

LaHood is just another Obamatard fucking puppet.


Fuck you assholes.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 23:11 | 3160996 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

You kick ass brotha! 

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:20 | 3160149 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

Any company in bed with the M.I.C. deserves all the bad karma in the universe

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:23 | 3160151 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

perhaps it is time to find a more appropriate name of the Dreamliner?

I think it is perfect - it only works flawlessly in dreams.  Rather like the American dream - you have to be asleep to know it.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:42 | 3160247 knukles
knukles's picture

American Dream.
That's why it's called "dream"....not reality, certainty, promise or done deal.


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:13 | 3160811 AgAu_man
AgAu_man's picture


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:12 | 3161270 Dugald
Dugald's picture


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:23 | 3161293 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:08 | 3161361 Likstane
Likstane's picture

Dreamlighter ?

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 03:30 | 3161442 Number 156
Number 156's picture


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:13 | 3161366 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:24 | 3161297 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:21 | 3160153 Aductor
Aductor's picture

I DEMAND congressional hearings, sobbing CEOs and the whole show. Oh, forgot. American company. No wait, Japanese battery supplier!

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:21 | 3160156 SHEEPFUKKER

The dreamliner is safe as long it does not crash. Duh. 

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:35 | 3160206 Sokhmate
Sokhmate's picture

or remain on the ground.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 08:14 | 3161628 Dieselclam
Dieselclam's picture

Wrong. The plane at Boston caught fire on the ground. One on the ground in Charleston started a grass fire. One in Chicago was found to have battery issues. One in boston and one in Japan had fuel leaks while on the ground. I wouldn't call that safe.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:38 | 3160207 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

"Dream Weaver Plane".

 I'll take a triple, stewardess.

Disclaimer: This song is painful but the lyrics are fitting- "Leave tomorrow behind"

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:09 | 3160351 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

They are on the phone right now calling for tech support ... from Gulab Pundit in Dehli.....

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:21 | 3160157 fuu
fuu's picture

FAA: Will also examine Boeing 787 batteries as part of comprehensive review announced last week

Shouldn't that have been done before they were approved in the first place?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:40 | 3160211 CPL
CPL's picture

And that's a new plane that's been hyped.   How's that for shit your pants scary?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:04 | 3160331 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

They are learning from the SEC. The only things tested in the Dreamliner are the Black Box and making sure that passports don't burn in case of a crash and are parachuted to safety.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:17 | 3160826 AgAu_man
AgAu_man's picture

You're talking out of your rear end, cause it makes you feel 'smart'.  But you have no material knowledge, based in fact.  That is a fact.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 00:45 | 3161219 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

of course I have no material knowledge, how clearer could I have been?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 21:37 | 3160647 Mark123
Mark123's picture

The plane was rated AAA by Moodys.  Good enuf for me.


Moodys never saw the actual plane plane or any of its components, but based their assessment on a synthetic derivative computer model developed by a grad student at Harvard.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:29 | 3160164 hairball48
hairball48's picture

I don't/won't fly anymore. I could care less.

I hit the wrong key. should have had:

Flying used to be a pleasant experience. Crew was friendly and the food was actually decent, even in tourist. Last time I flew was to my mom's funeral in '08. I felt like I was heading to a Nazi concentration camp....dealing with fucking rude TSA people and well as a crew that was downright hostile.


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:53 | 3160291 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

Fucking Hostile , even.

I used to fly for work every fucking week. No more.

Not to mention, if one of these TSA parasites tried to "search" my daughter, I'd snap their fucking neck as well as the TSA goon first responder. Maybe even the second.





Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:59 | 3160310 pods
pods's picture

Told my boss the next time I will fly is when I am in a pine box with a Fed Ex sticker on it.


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:06 | 3160333 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

your tracking number please...


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:53 | 3161406 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

TSA - A jobs program ... nothing more

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:03 | 3160772 trav777
trav777's picture

try paying more for your ticket.

you lemmings back in coach are in there to be tortured.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:13 | 3160813 CPL
CPL's picture

Plane falls if you are in coach or business class if an engine part is 'repurposed'.  Funny thing about gravity.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:52 | 3160936 trav777
trav777's picture

at least I die with the pretty stewardess's phone # in my die with some fat turd slob drooling on you

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:23 | 3161380 sitenine
sitenine's picture

You often crack me up! +1 for being Trav.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:23 | 3160168 gigeze787
gigeze787's picture
FAA Grounds All Boeing 787 Planes Until Proven Safe  

Wednesday, 16 Jan 2013 | 6:13 PM ET

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:02 | 3160324 sitenine
sitenine's picture

How is this a problem? Can't the POTUS just sign an executive suggestion banning 787 fires? Or maybe he could sign 23 of them, you know, just to make sure..

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:38 | 3160466 James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

How far we have slipped with that Made In America tag.

At least it looks like a plane. 

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:09 | 3160354 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

But when proven safe, then +200  pts in the ES.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:30 | 3160170 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Boeing-boeing-boeing-boeing = EADS must be laughing their asses off! Ok,  <-- Thankless Bastards.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:24 | 3160171 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

How many arms were twisted to get this thing bought by the Japanese? Faulty battery, faulty wiring, faulty fuel tank, faulty this, faulty that....nice to think about when you're 30,000 feet in the air!

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:50 | 3160255 knukles
knukles's picture

A cup of warm rice can deflect a problem for only so long.

(or whatever the insulting saying is)


(ps ... wonder if the warranty is anything like GE's Fuckushittinme reactors)

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:49 | 3160278 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Fuck 'em.  They're lying constantly about Fukushima, turn about's fair play.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:17 | 3161284 Dugald
Dugald's picture

Hey!  why not re-name it ....  Fawlty, it sings....

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:24 | 3160173 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Marginal gains from exponential growth in complexity....

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:46 | 3160262 sitenine
sitenine's picture

It's the new 'American exceptionalism'.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:49 | 3160277 knukles
knukles's picture

except the Dreamliner

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:08 | 3160343 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

"Hecho en Estados Unidos" the sticker says.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:09 | 3160344 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Marginal productivity of complexity always crosses zero.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:32 | 3161308 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

That's one of the dumbest fucking things I've seen you post and ranks as one of the dumbest fucking posts on this slack-jawed mongoloid board EVER. Anyone who knows anything about the airline industry will tell you that they would kill their own grandmothers to get an extra 1% efficiency out of their fleets. Boeing has built a platform that offers 20% better than anything else on the market. We're talking "Mr. Fusion" levels of improvement in fleet efficiency.

Seriously, you retards need to stick to something you know best - like fake climate "science" or accidentally losing a lifetime's worth of wealth in boating "accidents". Not a one of you knows jack shit about aerospace engineering and would serve everyone best by keeping your fucking mouths shut. You goddamn fucking idiots.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:13 | 3161368 Likstane
Likstane's picture

They don't seem so efficient when they're sitting on the tarmac at Narita.  Maybe you're the guy that sticks the little clamper thingnies on the new-fangled Nicad battery packs.  Probably should tape those things on a little better. 

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:19 | 3161376 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Little touchy there...

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 03:00 | 3161414 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

Obviously not a recipient of an executive management bonus in the industry.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 10:10 | 3161926 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

My advice to you know-nothings still stands. You know nothing about this industry and you know nothing about me. If you read between the lines in all the articles involving this you'll find out a few obvious facts:

1) GS Yasua has _fucked up_ the initial lot of Lithium ion batteries that they shipped to Boeing. They're Japanese so Boeing is going to be spending the majority of their time helping those clowns figure out a way to save face.

2) Everyone else and his brother that has the Dreamliner in their fleet has a) not grounded them, and b) is in line to buy more. You simply do not walk away from a 20% efficiency advantage in your fleet over stupid stuff like this, you won't be able to compete and you'll end up out of business.

3) The safety factors in this design are absolutely phenomenal. Example: a single engine on the Dreamliner is powerful enough to keep a _fully loaded 747 in the air_. The average layman simply is in no position to pass judgement on the leaps in tech that are involved to achieve such feats. Sorry boys and girls, it's not elitist when it's true.

As for the dumbass wisecrack about bonuses, you're on Zerho Hedge... why are you jealous about how much paper fiat anyone is taking home from one day to the next? Get with the program, chuckles.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 14:37 | 3163187 Likstane
Likstane's picture

Go armor-all the tires on those old triple 7's, looks like you're gonna need 'em.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:25 | 3160175 Frank N. Beans
Frank N. Beans's picture

is this sorta like that electric car that has fires?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:46 | 3160257 knukles
knukles's picture


lemme think about that one a while....

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:26 | 3160176 Zola
Zola's picture

lithium ion batteries strike again ? Tyler do you still have the video of the Fisker car igniting under water during Sandy ?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:43 | 3160912 Matt
Matt's picture

Like, WTF? couldn't they use safer Lithium Ferro Phosphate batteries, or newer generation Lithium polymer batteries? You know, the ones where you can drill through them while they are charging without risk of fire or electrocution? I mean, FFS, if they have batteries that safe for hobby toys, why not for actual cars and planes?


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:26 | 3160178 deejo
deejo's picture

oh well.  BTFD, i suppose ?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:54 | 3160296 Rainman
Rainman's picture

YEESSSSS ! The answer is always YEEEESSS !

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:26 | 3160183 Nihilarian
Nihilarian's picture

Who made the batteries, A123?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:37 | 3160218 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

They were made by 5 4 3 2 1 Ignition

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:53 | 3160293 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

A Japanese company, Yuasu or something like that.

I'd bet that the Boeing engineers didn't overbuild the wiring and amp draw from the batteries so they could lighten things up.

Probably a 2% tolerance versus 20%.


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:06 | 3160782 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

If they just used printer friendly batteries ....ask Ben.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:28 | 3160185 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

was there a lithium battery on TWA800?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:00 | 3160318 pods
pods's picture

Yep, that was the heat signal that the missile homed in on.


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:19 | 3160388 seek
seek's picture

There was one in the missle, so after it hit, yes, there was a lithium battery on TWA800.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:59 | 3160532 Squid Vicious
Squid Vicious's picture

ok I feel better now, I've been worried for 16 years about those exploding fuel tanks, especially in summer when they get really HOT

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:30 | 3160190 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

Wait til "worlds collide" from 30,000 drones over the homeland.! Oh, wait. You won't have to.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:33 | 3160192 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

It beggars belief that after so many decades of commercial jet development and so many different aircraft in service for so long, that a new commercial jet can not be engineered and brought on line with minimal problems. Are the engineers now a days not able to build on the past engineering successes and improve and adapt designs from the past? It's not like they are the first to sit down to design a new commerical aircraft. Can they not even design a battery that isn't a fire hazard.

Boeing should look into how they recruit and employ engineers. Obviosuly they have got some lemons in the work force. We see much the same with miltiary aircraft, it takes half a normal human life time for these guys to design and produce a new fighter or bomber aircraft. It was not always that way. What has changed? Are they trying to reinvent everything, or are they too stupid to build on past designs that did work?

How long before layoffs result? Commerical aircraft was one bright spot in US manufacturing. But I gather we are busy in technology transfer to China. A local, and highly rated, small aircraft designer and manufacturer was bought by a Chinese compnay a few years back. Once the technology is transfered to China, and they open their own manufacturing facility, it's a sure bet ours will close. Labor costs too high they will say, though nobody at the plant is getting rich on those wages I can tell you! It is a race to the bottom, the US staff would have to go to $2.00 an hour top wage to even be in the ball park.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:47 | 3160233 rtalcott
rtalcott's picture

I think it's more the managers and not the engineers....


SR-71 went from design to flying in maybe 24 months...Kelly Johnson knew how to manage to get things done.



  • 28 December 1962: Lockheed signs contract to build six SR-71 aircraft.
  • 25 July 1964: President Johnson makes public announcement of SR-71.
  • 29 October 1964: SR-71 prototype (AF Ser. No. 61-7950) delivered to Air Force Plant 42 at Palmdale, CA.



Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:53 | 3160937 Matt
Matt's picture

P-51 took about 16 weeks to get the first prototype rolled out the door.

Pentagon took about 16 months to contruct.

F-35 is looking about 16 YEARS to develop.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:18 | 3161285 Lucius Corneliu...
Lucius Cornelius Sulla's picture

Comparing a P-51 to a F-35?  Come on ... not even close!

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:56 | 3161339 Matt
Matt's picture

The technology has not advanced compareable to the complexity of the aircraft? Look at what they had to work with in 1941.

If this trend continues, the sixth generation fighter will take 30 years to make, and the seventh generation will take like 100 years.

As it is, the F-35 has been in development longer than both world wars, and will be in service for fewer years than in developement.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:24 | 3161290 Lucius Corneliu...
Lucius Cornelius Sulla's picture

In the Skunk Works the engineers and machinists worked side by side building the parts as they were designed, tweaking them as needed.  Not so much with the 787.  The first major "global supply chain" aeronautical engineering project.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:31 | 3160432 Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

My guess woul be that Boeing has deviated sharply from the K.I.S.S. mantra.

Keep It Simple, Stupid

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 21:51 | 3160710 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

Jack, puhleeze.  A Congressional inquiry will be convened as soon as one of these suckers takes out one of our remaining skyscrapers.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 21:53 | 3160725 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture




Jack Burton


" It beggars belief that after so many decades of commercial jet development and so many different aircraft in service for so long, that a new commercial jet can not be engineered and brought on line with minimal problems. ... "

Override of sound, engineering decisions by a management set on a) making deadlines b) cutting costs ... It's really quite simple ... remember Challenger? NASA? FAILED MGT DECISION?


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 08:45 | 3161665 Dieselclam
Dieselclam's picture


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:05 | 3160777 trav777
trav777's picture

this isn't like bringing a new item out on the dollar menu, cretin

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:13 | 3161243 Lucius Corneliu...
Lucius Cornelius Sulla's picture

I know a lot of Boeing engineers and machinists in the Commercial Airplanes Division and they all say the same thing, "It's the first airplance built by MBAs".  In other words, management tried to placate every government on the planet by outsourcing pieces of it all over the place in order to win sales and supposedly save money.  Furthermore, this is a truly revolutionary design both in the airframe and electronics.  So when you mix in a lot of new design and technology with MBAs that decide on where and how to build it for political reasons instead of keeping the engineers and machinists who speak the same language working within close proximity to each other, you have the mess they are in now.  Another great idea turned into a piece of shit by outsourcing!

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:23 | 3161292 Dugald
Dugald's picture

Nothing improves development like a large war.........but are you ready?

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 03:04 | 3161418 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

Outsourcing of manufacturing and design ... gotta love it ... and makes the US national economy so vibrant /snark

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:34 | 3160203 hairball48
hairball48's picture

I read that the "NightmareLiner" has Lithium Ion batteries made by a Japanese firm Yuasa.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:36 | 3160210 max2205
max2205's picture

Please fasten your seat belts and turn off all battery power devices.    


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:48 | 3160270 knukles
knukles's picture

Your stew-bitch will be along to handcuff you to your seat shortly

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:23 | 3161381 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

They serve stew? 

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:36 | 3160213 Catflappo
Catflappo's picture

Boeing Boeing Gone...

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:38 | 3160223 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 The irony Jack, of this is that [Car manufactures are consuming (Al}) at alarming rates to fulfill MPG estimates before 2025.

  Composite cars burn, which is why race cars use light weight composite bodies,designed to break away.

 Look at the the 1978 porsche 928, Advertising material. (Aluminium was a selling point) .


  Composite airplanes don't do well with electricity,and heat!

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:41 | 3160235 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

My favorite Porsche.

Yes, I realize I'm in a tiny minority.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:51 | 3160285 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

A good minority ;-)

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:55 | 3160297 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

The 928s are fine Grand Touring cars, but they're heavy.

My faves are the 1972 911S and '73 Carrera RS.  Mmmmm.  So light and nimble.

I had a '70 "S" model for a while - the thing weighed 2100lbs I think.  The performance was just unbelievable.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:10 | 3160355 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 I used the "928" as an example. It was the first front engined 'water cooled' Porsche production car .  I love ALL 911's.

 I had a "79" 930 Turbo, that would blow your ass off around the apex. You just had to stay on the gas and let it understeer into the next transition. (trailing throttle oversteer wasn't an option)

Fri, 01/18/2013 - 16:25 | 3167318 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

No worries - The front-engined Porsche's are mostly excellent cars (924 notwithstanding).  I've heard that the 944 Turbo holds the factory stock lap record at the Nurbrugring.  Jealous about the 930T.  I always wanted to build a 911RSR replica out of one.  =]

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:50 | 3160283 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

No real substitute for metal.

The stainless steel DeLorean was genius.

Why can't this country make a DC-3 anymore?

As you say, goal-seeking fuel efficiency versus rugged reliability and safety.

So, now we will not only be X-Ray'ed and groped to get on the plane we will be Guinea Pigs for safety in the air.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:06 | 3160788 trav777
trav777's picture

I am convinced more than ever that this site is populated with COMPLETE fking idiots

The DC3??  WTF.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:33 | 3160884 Likstane
Likstane's picture

What's wrong with the DC-3?  It seems to have done pretty well for the last 70 years.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:51 | 3160928 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Now now trav777, look up the long storied history of the venerable DC-3 that lasted longer than the 727 or DC-10.

One of the most dependable aircraft ever made, like the P-51 Mustang.

Wherefore art our industrial ingenuity and craft?

Lost to the sands of time?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:39 | 3160225 syntaxterror
syntaxterror's picture

If it's Boeing, you ain't going.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:46 | 3160261 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Composite materials and high power batteries instead of metal and fuel.


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:27 | 3161387 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Just like our cars. And everything else. Maybe they are supposed to be one use and disposable?

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:46 | 3160263 Dr Benway
Dr Benway's picture

Hey, it hasn't crashed and killed everyone on board yet.

So according to standard logic of today's nominally rising 'markets', that means it's safe and everyone should just buy.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:56 | 3160302 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Whats the big deal? slap a new battery in that puppy, double check the wiring and its good to go?


My friends father works on jet liners all the time, they just duct tape the shit out of all the broken parts and send them off.


You guys think its some kinda fancy pants mechanic working on your flight ? hahaha these guys just duct tape everything....... why? because thats how a man fixes things.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:58 | 3160524 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

Well........ I'm a mechanic for a big purple-tailed overnight cargo company. I do avionics/electrical contract for corporates on the side. Duct tape is not even stocked. That actually was a pretty damn brainless statement. Do you have ANY clue what makes an aircraft tic? When you get off your next flight, thank a pilot, mechanic, and engineer for allowing you to do so.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 21:45 | 3160687 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

      It's all ball-bearings these days, boy! 

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 03:08 | 3161421 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I love the shape of the wings...

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 02:29 | 3161388 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

"Do you have ANY clue what makes an aircraft tic?"

A bomb?

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 01:42 | 3161319 entropy93
entropy93's picture

It wasn't just one battery that failed, now its up to something like three. There is some design flaw or high defect rate. Keep flying and it won't be long until a battery fire brings one down.


Thu, 01/17/2013 - 09:15 | 3161720 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

***they just duct tape the shit out of all the broken parts***

I was in the Air National Guard many years ago. Standing rule was if you worked on an aircraft, you went up for the test flight. Kept everyone focused on what they were doing! I guess things have changed.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 19:58 | 3160307 Dieselclam
Dieselclam's picture

I used to be a quality engineer on this program. I'm not surprised by ANY of this.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 21:47 | 3160695 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

Lemme weren't a team player in that position, so they had to let you find some new opportunities?

All the QA folks I've ever met have been Linda Greens and Urban Romans....

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 08:54 | 3161683 Dieselclam
Dieselclam's picture ummm...of course they fired me. I was a "threat to the company."

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:03 | 3160328 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Those fly by wire nightmareliners are a disaster waiting to happen.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:06 | 3160334 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Genetically Modified Organism

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:11 | 3160359 Racer
Racer's picture

Blame it on the Germans for the  Alptraumliner

they took the gold out of the contacts, uh contracts

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:17 | 3160379 pitz
pitz's picture

Didn't Boeing scam the US Government by claiming they couldn't build a B787-derived tanker, instead offering up the obsolete B767 airframe?    Talk about greed and ripping off the taxpayer.  Which seems to be the name of the game. 


Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:59 | 3160955 Matt
Matt's picture

Q: what's scarier than a Dreamliner on fire?

A: A Dreamliner fuel tanker on fire.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:18 | 3160380 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Government Motor's (GM)  - Cash For Clunkers

Barry's Aircraft (BA) - Cash for  Fire traps.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:19 | 3160386 adr
adr's picture

What did they expect from the mind of that sociopath Alan Mulally. His wonderful brainchild and idea of outsourcing to 100 different corporations to produce parts sure made a great plane.

The Dreamliner was nothing but a stock stunt, a very expensive on at that. But it did work and got Mulally a seat at Ford where he ran another stock scam from $1 to $11, making himself quite a bit of money. Oh I forgot he paid himself $1, ahhhh ha hah ha, SURE. If you don't count stock options taxed at 15%.

Made Bill Ford happy though, and Ford didn't take a government bailout, just a couple billion dollars in low interest loans from the treasury. Of course all that money was supposed to be used for building advanced fuel vehicles. We got an electric Focus that we are supposed to believe took more money to develop than the Space Shuttle.

I'm forced to fly at least 10 times a year and I'm scared every time. I've been on a plane that had the windscreen crack, one that lost hydraulics in the tail, one that dropped a couple thousand feet in seconds, and one with stuck landing gear. I'm amazed these things aren't dropping out of the sky daily. Duct Tape can only hold for so long.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 21:49 | 3160700 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

How can you blame the CEO?  Our aircraft industry is all gummit-sudsibized shit.  I blame Lindsey Graham.

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 22:52 | 3160934 Notarocketscientist
Notarocketscientist's picture

You must be flying shit north american airlines staffed by shit people.


I fly 15-20 times a year and only fly Singapore Air or Cathay Pacific.  Never had a problem


America is failed

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