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It Is Not The United States Of Europe; Just The Opposite

Tyler Durden's picture


Via Mark J. Grant, author of Out of the Box,

It is not the United States of Europe but the other way around; the Europization of the United States. It is not a new game but a very old game and not played with such fervor in America since Franklin Delano Roosevelt stirred the pot which was done in an attempt to end the consequences of the Great Depression. This morning’s commentary is not meant just for political consideration but what the ramifications of the Democrat’s strategy will do and are doing to the financial markets.  Round I has now all but ended and the next Round will, in my opinion, bring entirely different results.
Round I consisted of the response of the world’s central banks which was to flood the globe with money in a bid to curtail the financial crisis of 2008/2009. This has buoyed all of the markets, each and every market, because small pieces of green and blue paper must be put somewhere. There are consequences for this however and five years later, which is now, I believe we are about to have to start dealing with them. It may be Inflation or, even worse, Valuation but we are beginning to see the signs of change as Treasuries begin to head higher in yields which will affect all of the other bond markets and then the equity markets as a matter of relative value. Keep your eye fixed on the long bond and on gold as primal indicators of what is to come.
The recent national election in the United States clearly demonstrated the oft quoted phrase that “Americans vote from their pocketbooks.” Fluff, philosophy and hyperbole are the centerpieces of the American elections but when real money is on the table it is from here that most people vote because it is in their self-interest to do so. The scenario is not too complicated and Romney was correct, if perhaps politically stupid, that a large portion of Americans will vote for the Democrats because they are giving them social programs and entitlements which may be read as “Money” to do so. People just are not going to vote to cut off their own flow of funds and so the lower classes in America, en masse, have voted and will vote to keep the money coming. This strategy has ramifications however because the money must come from somewhere and so we have entered the arena where more and more taxes will be demanded from individuals and corporations to “keep the Spice flowing.”
This was clearly demonstrated in Obamacare, in our latest round of tax increases on individuals and in yesterday’s comments from the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, who did not speak about curtailing social programs at all but focused on increasing taxes on oil and gas companies and on increasing corporate taxes in general while curbing write-offs. America now has the European infection, in my opinion, where personal taxes are as high as 75% in France and not too far behind that in many other European countries. Corporate taxes are also generally higher in Europe and the banks are the bedfellows of the State which are used to control and dominate the social programs of the various governments. There is no way around the general conclusion that America is becoming socialized, that having money and being successful is a bad thing, which is the general philosophy in Europe, and that the United States is going through a very serious moment of social and monetary equalization where those with capital are supposed to pay a great deal of it out to those who do not have capital as a matter of their patriotic duty.
This bouncing ball is not too tough to follow. The people with money pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on goods and services. The corporations pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on acquisitions, dividends or growing their business. The money flows to the people who are not in the middle class but are poorer and it gets spent on the basics of life and not on consumer durables. The rich are poorer, the middle class is poorer, the poor become better off at first and then less well off in the second instance as taxes bleed the entire economy of excess capital. Votes are, in fact, bought and paid for but the money used to pay for them will begin to dry up as the Europization of America continues unabated. This will also have a profound impact upon all of the financial markets which will dovetail into the consequences of the central banks and so even that capital gets down streamed and leaves the markets by way of ever increasing higher taxes for both corporations and individuals. I expect soon, and it has certainly been rumored, that not just will the Democrats go after the exemption on Municipal bonds but that they will propose some kind of national Value Added Tax (VAT) which will be one more method to take money from those that earn it and hand it over to those who do not to assure their political stewardship of the nation or, more bluntly stated, to keep themselves in power which is always the main goal of politicians of course.
I point all of this out this morning not to state right or wrong but to state with clarity that the markets will be seriously impacted by all of this. The equity markets may be at all-time highs today as fed by the central banks but a turn is coming, a quite severe turn in my view, which will wipe the glitter from the ornaments. As Treasury yields begin to rise and as markets reassess relative value then the rose petals will begin to fall and if the central banks begin to end their monetary flood at the same time then “Katie Bar the Door” will be the result.
Later will be too late. The time to prepare is now!


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Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:24 | 3212895 GetZeeGold
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It's no fun.....being an American European.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:27 | 3212904 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

It's a bit like having the body of Albert Einstein and the brains of Arnold Schwarzeneger...


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:33 | 3212921 fourchan
fourchan's picture


central banking is a disease and yes its a jewish one, once a contry imports it, it has imported a new master.

and you ar no longer free in any sense of the word.  END THE FED.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:41 | 3212946 Ratscam
Ratscam's picture

Zionist not jewish, big difference!

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:59 | 3213003 trav777
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Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:28 | 3213103 economics9698
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Yippee another day of anti-Semitic rants.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 16:03 | 3213110 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It's funny that the only place I ever see your 'so-called' 'anti-semitic' rants is on financial sites... I wonder why? 


Quick!... I know... Since it's all about that faceless 'ZIONISM' sect, let's ave some fun... Let's draft a FANTASY LEAGUE... Each team gets to pick 20 players...

Team "A" are all the 'Zionists' [who aren't jews in any way, or aren't lackeys to a jew in a position of power in banking, MSM, or politics]

Team "B" are simply Jews [notwithstanding whether or not they are 'so-called' Zionists]... They ought to be tough to find because they only represent 1% of the worlds population...


Let's build those rosters [using our drafting skills], & see who has the most power...

I'll be the coach of 'Team B': Here's my roster ~ [which I'm SEVERELY handicapped here ~ because I'm only drafting from 1% population demographic pool]

Bernanke ~ Prints worthless paper [to benefit only his cronies], tells you "Subprime is contained", "We will not monetize debt", "Gold is not money"... Likes to fly helicopters in his spare time... 

Rothschild ~ "Give me the power to control a nations money & I care not who makes it's laws"

Greenspan ~ Chair warmer for Bernanke... Enjoys bubble baths...

Geithner ~ Tax expert

Dimon ~ Loves manipulating the PAPER price of PM's... Has the franchise on your EBT cards...

Blankfein ~ Doing 'God's work'

Kissinger ~ Sith Lord

Greenberg ~ Almost singlehandedly wrote the entire CDS market [giving 'above' teammates a free run at tilting the field towards themselves & gobbling up everything]

Summers ~ 2 time cabinet member/advisor to POTUS responsible for keeping the Executive Branch in line with the 'Overlords' agenda... Likes bankrupting Harvard in his spare time...  

Rubin ~ taught Summers everything he knows [cept 'eating donuts' ~ that Summers accomplished on his own]...

Wolfowicz ~ Ombudsan for "W"

Warburg ~ engineered the 'Meeting at Jeckyll Island'

Netanyahu ~ Warmongering joochebag who thinks Iran should be glass 

Ben Gurion ~ Father of 'Apartheid State'

Bloomberg ~ Runs a media empire & the most importnt city in the world... He wants yur guns taken from you

Krugman ~ useful idot 

Feinstein ~ wants your guns too [while she's not busy counting her money made when her husband benefits from US~Israeli business deals]

Zoellick ~ Former IMF head & CFR member

Perle ~ another 'Bush Era' plant put there to perpetuate the never ending 'War on Terror'

Alinsky ~ Makes sure that the university system is full of professors that future generations of students to be good 'socialists'...

Corzine ~ Roams the world FREE [searching for something to rehypothecate], when he's not fundraising for Manchurian candidates

Emmanuel ~ Runs things 'the Chicago Way' [only after he made sure Washington would be run 'Chicago Style' untl 2017]...

[I could easily do better if I bothered to try]...


Your turn...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 16:08 | 3214169 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Francis, could you make a team for the MSM and Hollywood?


Thanks in advance

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 16:13 | 3214197 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

In 2 seconds & off the top of my dome I could toss out: Disney, Eisen, Katzenberg, Geffen, Spielberg, Redstone, Moonves, etc...


Hell ~ just go to the roster of 'central casting' [or, easier, just watch The Oscars]...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 16:39 | 3214276 Darth Sidious
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hey dipshit, as much as team zion would like them in our camp, Geitner and Corzine are on your team.  sorry. 

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 17:27 | 3214414 francis_sawyer
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Geithner’s father, Peter, was a "secular Jew" and was known to periodically attend an Episcopal Church, perhaps to further his or his son’s career. The senior Geithner served as director of the Ford Foundation’s Asia program in the 1980s and was Ann Dunham’s (Barack Obama’s mother) boss and financier of her microfinance development projects in Indonesia.

Tim Geithner is married to a Jewish woman, Carole Sonnenfeld, and they have two children, named Benjamin and Elise. Geithner’s Jewish bloodline and family loyalty to Zionist causes earned him fast advancement. He is a member of the globalist Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), was a director of the International Monetary Fund and held the post of president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. He worked at Kissinger and Associates in Washington for three years and was mentored by Larry Summers, the Clinton White House’s Treasury Secretary. Geithner was also Undersecretary of Treasury when Robert Rubin was Treasury Secretary. Kissinger, Summers, and Rubin are all Jews, and the CFR is a Jewish organization—seventy-five percent of its members are Jews.

Reportedly, Geithner plays tennis two or three times a week with pal and crony Alan Greenspan (Jew), former Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board.

As Obama’s Secretary of the Treasury, Tim Geithner has been a generous benefactor and financier for Jewish-owned banks and insurance giants like Goldman Sachs, Citicorp, and AIG, as well as foreign banks such as Europe’s Deutsche Bank and Société Générale.

The Jewish Chronicle, has reported that Timothy Geithner is Jewish. Writing in the November 6, 2008 on-line issue, Shmuel Rosen mentions Geithner specifically as Jewish and notes that "The Jews (are) set to play a central role in Obama’s administration."

In sum, Geithner is a bagman for international Jewish banks and Wall Street and a Rothschild-Soros-IMF stooge and actor. By both blood and conduct, he is a Jew. Geithner’s religious devotion, then, is to the god of greed. As the noted 19th century Jewish writer Heinrich Heine so sagely observed, "Money is the god of the Jews, and Rothschild is his prophet."


Corzine operates in much the same way... But if you want to get picky about it, I'll DROP him & add SOROS...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:54 | 3215014 Darth Sidious
Darth Sidious's picture

listen needle dick, you obviously don't get how our international conspiracy works . . . we only let those with maternal lineage into the club.  So, Geitner is out of luck, regardless of who he plays tennis with.  I realize your Nazi friends have different rules (i.e., if you are 1/4 jewish, you are jewish), but the international conspiracy makes its own rules, we don't take other's rules for us.

So Geitner is on your team.  You've got plenty of good players like J.P. Morgan, Hank Paulson, Louis Bacon, Julian Robertson, Merill, Lynch, Pierce , fenner, smith, etc. etc.  So you should do fine in the destroying the world through banking contest.

If you persist in insisting on putting Geitner on our team you might find yourself at a mossad re-education seminar somewhere in the Negev.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:28 | 3213104 francis_sawyer
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His name is "Ratscam" ~ TRUST HIM...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:55 | 3213188 mightycluck
mightycluck's picture

This cat pretty much says the same thing. But with charts. And mentions Cloward-Piven.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 22:52 | 3215285 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

fourchan, be sure to study up on the "over generalization" logical fallacy.  Ignoring your logical fallacy, it is worse than you think.

The criminals running this system (some of them Jewish, especially the people they put out front for public consumption while the real rulers hide in the shadows, while others are not - my Jewish neighbor is still wondering where his share of the loot is if this is his conspiracy, as well as why he isn't getting memos about neurotoxins being put in the water and GMO pesticide and herbicide saturated "foods.") are EXPORTING Debt Money Tyranny and using the American Cumptocracy to foot the bill, foot the blood and take the blame for it.

Iraq didn't have Debt Money Tyranny until it was invaded, under a false pretext, by the Big Finance Capital captured and controlled American Chumptocracy. 

Same is true with Afghanistan and Libya.  I bet you know what is going to happen with Syria and Iran in due time.

Come to think of it, even  Germany and Japan before WWII didn't have the Debt Money Tyranny yoke of debt slavery.

Napolean...  what did he say?

"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain." - Napoleon


"The government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government, but it is the government’s greatest creative opportunity. The financing of all public enterprise, and the conduct of the treasury will become matters of practical administration. Money will cease to be master and will then become servant of humanity." - Abraham Lincoln


"Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.

It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system – ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.

- Eisenhower, Farewell Speech Warning

The good news is the criminals are easy to spot - they attack the jewel that is individual human liberty.

The bad news is you live in a chumptocracy.  Granted, more people are being de-chumped as the cost of being a chump edges ever higher, but there is a long way to go.

Help spread the word...

Debt Money Tyranny

That chart ends all debate about a financial conspiracy to bankrupt America and the world.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:29 | 3212911 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

let me see: we are trying to get all european nations to balance their budgets

does this europeanization of the US means that this kind of policies are being introduced?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:34 | 3212920 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



At least those guys have budgets. They do.....right?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:41 | 3212945 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

hey, fucking over 40% of our average GDP is fucking taxes. and in the US you can have people seriously discussing if it's even feasible collecting more than 20% of GDP, and waving the "Laffer Curve" as undiscussed proof of it

of course "those guys" have budgets, and they are humungus, they'd better balance them

meanwhile the US spends as much (some 40%), collects half the taxes (23% of GDP) - and "deficits don't matter", evah

and this article has nothing to do with the real europe, only about it's perception in the US internal political debate

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:54 | 3212985 Cypher_73
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I was just about to say... 

But yeah, typical right wing bombastic blather. P.S. "Europe" isn't one amorphous mass (at least not yet) so can the generalizations. Europe also includes Scandinavian, uber socialist countries which somehow (duh) keep getting rated as the best countries to live. The US could do worse than follow Sweden's lead.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:13 | 3213051 knowless
knowless's picture

You actually believe that it is realistic to think that the united states of America could be in any way similar governmentaly to tiny and demographically homogeneous Sweden?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:54 | 3213174 Acet
Acet's picture

Even the whole EU, for all the problems with the Euro, with the productivity, language and culture differences between regions - and inability to accept transfer between richer states and poorer ones like a true federation - and with various different political cultures is still better run than present day's United States of America.

At least the EU doesn't spend 10% of it's GDP on cesspool of corruption and big-fat subsidy to the rich which is the Industrial Military Complex, nor has it bailed out banks to anywhere near the same level as the US, not to mention it's not printing money like the Fed.

Furthermore, all this bullshit talk of blaming welfare recipients for the country's problems is a spectacular display of blindness.

Let me put things this way: most of taxpayers' money goes to big corps and well connect individuals (one word: pork). Big corps have the vast majority of lobbyists and have bought politicians and countless laws and regulations (fixed regulations are effectivelly a hidden tax, since they reduce competitiveness in markets and are thus a cost paid by consumers). It's not single mother Sheila Doe, who gets some peanuts to remain sheep-like and vote for one of the usual suspects, that spent the hundreds of millions of dollars it took to setup the huge network of lobbyists bought politicians that created the system that America has today.


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:59 | 3213206 knowless
knowless's picture

your assertions are untrue to a level that they do not require refutation.



Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:15 | 3213267 Acet
Acet's picture

Oh, I'm pretty sure time will prove me right.

Even if it breaks up, Europe is far more robust than the US simply because of the huge variety of cultures and approaches of the place. Even the crooked and corrupt politicians here are unable to work together and are thus incapable of wrecking anywhere near the same level of havoc as American politicians can.

The worse scenario for Europe still has many if not all of the nations of Europe surviving. Can you say the same for the US?

(Maybe Texas will make it)


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:25 | 3213303 knowless
knowless's picture

are you an american? where in this nation have you seen? what class are you?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:52 | 3213376 Acet
Acet's picture

Do you speak any other language other than English?

Do you have any friends in Europe? Have you ever been in a social gathering in a country other than the US?

Ever lived anywhere else than the US for a year or more?

I'll admit that my knowledge of the US is just from being to NY ages ago (before 9/11) and from what I read in Newspapers and and forums like ZH and other, some of which I've been following for more than a decade now.

My knowledge of Europe is first hand and I've already lived in 3 different countries in Europe, with different languages, different currencies, different politics and vastly different social and cultural behaviours. I've also been on vacations to about 10 other countries in Europe alone (and can understand and be understood in the native language of about half the inhabitants of Europe, though my German is kinda crap).

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 16:22 | 3214222 PFO
PFO's picture



Good start, but you have to settle somewhere for at least three cycles of seasons before you get a feel for the place. I lived in Medjugorje, Bosne i Hercegovine for 4 over years and loved every 2nd. or 3rd. world minute of it!


First, because the folks were so REAL! When they said 'Yebegec', they meant fuck-off, not don't ever talk to me again. The next day I was over to the house for drinks and more yebegec cultural-economic-political-religious discussion.


Second, because the daily grind of life wasn't. There was no banking establishment to load the people down with debt, simply because they ALL to a toddler recognized debt=death!


The family home was just that! More kids? Relatives returned from the diaspora? Crazy Americans dropping-in to drop-out of the:


satanic-feminist-pedophile-savage capitalist-consumer-credit-culture of death


that has been imposed upon his country? NO PROBLEM! Build more rooms!


Finally, the people there are Roman Catholic and very devout Christians, heroically hospitable to strangers and the community at large. Do they argue and fight with each other? Of course! How else can you settle an issue without communication – conflict - resolution?


And like good RCs the next day, they sit down together have a drink and argue up another issue to be resolved! Makes for entertaining nights that TV can't hope to touch!


So is America becoming Europeanized? GOD I HOPE SO!!!!!


ANYTHING is better than the sterile feminist playpen this continent has been turned into!


Sto radite sutra?




Mon, 02/04/2013 - 12:13 | 3213442 Wilcat Dafoe
Wilcat Dafoe's picture

demographically homogenous?

Once upon a time, but where have you been.  The One Worlders couldn't allow that for long, and neither could the Zionists {who based on my reading of parts of the Talmud and Old Testament are using non-Jewish confederates for sure but have no intention of sharing the pie.. this isn't 'all Jews' but it's a healthy minority with power}

For example:

I try not to throw my hat in with the "blame the X" racists and all, but the evidence of a concerted effort to make every european state a racial salad bowl, while keeping Eretz Israel pure as the Khazarian snow, is evidently a "thing" and yes, it seems 'Zionists' are a disproportional chunk of the effort.

Peter Sutherland is an interesting case - born in Ireland, he favors unfettered immigration...

Think he might, possibly, be a cryptojew?

The double-standard is pure Talmudism.  So if you're a French Jew, you advocate open borders there, but support a Jewish only state which you have dual citizenship with on the other end of the Mediterranean, and while you hate bourgeouisie colonial capitalism, you're pretty sure God Shimself said your ethnoreligious group is super special, and its not murder or war crimes when you kick out natives to create an ethnarchy.... and anyone who suggests this all smacks of double standards and Jewish Supremacism is an "antisemite" and therefore saying nothing at all of any merit.

That's a neat trick.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:50 | 3214639 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Culturally homogenious Sweden eh?   Been to Malmo lately?   It is Islamic, arabistanville reproducting fast and imposing its way while sucking the blood of a rapidly aging native population that will not likely recover.   Math is a harsh mistress.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:02 | 3213213 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Sweden is awesome if you want to get raped by roving bands of Muslim thugs.

Socialism always ends the same way: stagnation, corruption, violence.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 15:02 | 3213940 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

And you prefer to live in a country where the raping is done by old white men in suits, as long as it's a 'legitimate' rape.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:14 | 3214533 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Scandinavia?   Demographic death beds with arab colonies and generalised immasculation.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:29 | 3212915 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

The "no fun" part is only beginning.. Watch for euro style increase in senior unelected officials in combination with severe suppression of decent. I guess luckily for barakhussein most euromerikans are too busy glued to their tvs.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:50 | 3212974 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

what is an "euro style unelected official"? a secretary of state, defence, treasury, etc.?

appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:54 | 3212987 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

Ummm how about ruling govt of Italy?
How about every post in europarliament?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 13:10 | 3213590 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

every government of Italy has to have a majority in parliament - Monti was appointed by the President of the Republic and had - until short time ago -  a majority in said parliament, ergo a confirmation - that's their constitutional setup

your second sentence is strange - do you know the definition of parliament? the EU parliament is directly elected

you are probably thinking about the EU council or it's permanent commission

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 14:51 | 3213896 Surprese
Surprese's picture

No, he is thinking about the President of the USA, who is not directly elected by the people.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:16 | 3214538 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Our unfirable federal perma-employees are unelected.   It is hard to make a mistake grave enough to get the boot out of a federal job.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:28 | 3212906 Inthemix96
Inthemix96's picture

Well then,

That will fix it then wont it?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:30 | 3212907 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Interesting take on things.  So what's private gun ownership like in Europe?  Does this mean Utah is the new Switzerland?   By the way, having money is only a bad thing if the taxpayer bailed your bad business model out.  YOU SHOULD HAVE GONE OUT OF BUSINESS!!!

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:32 | 3212918 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

Funny enough this question popped out yesterday on one of the threads. Banker in belgium said the shotgun/hunting rifle ownership is quite decent interestingly enough. No hand guns or anything resembling an ar15 though obviously unless you are an albanian gangster.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:36 | 3212927 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Many countries in Europe have mandatory military service.  The Swiss all have a fully automatic rife in their homes.  It is maintained with a thousand rounds at all times.  Sounds like good models on both accounts.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:42 | 3212948 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

Yep, although i did hear that it changed recently and even their theres been more regulation. Although dont for sure.

I think a very interesting point is the difference in attitude towards the govt, and maybe europeans here can comment a bit. In US i would say easily 25-35% of population at any given time view govt as THE ENEMY.
In europe, even in countries that are really hurting govt is largely viewed as incompetent but is not hated. I suspect even the horrors of greece are not pushing people over the line, rather drive them to self immolation and other horrib forms of suicide.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:53 | 3212960 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

two concepts: proportional voting system, election of parliament, not of administration (France, the UK & Romania are good examples of how to screw one of the two)

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:02 | 3213017 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

Sorry pls elaborate as i am not sure how this relates.. I was making a point about psychological perception of the govt by population.. I feel that in european countries ppl are far less hostile towards the officialdom then in US.. I got that point after discussing it w numerous brits and french and an occasional belgian..

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:28 | 3213102 which way weste...
which way western man's picture

They are used to feudalism.  

Brainwashed from cradle to grave to embrace it.

Simple as that.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:41 | 3213146 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

They certainly do like nanny state. Which i find repugnant. But then again so do most NYers and californians..

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:08 | 3213234 Acet
Acet's picture

Europeans are both more pro-state and more likelly to demonstrate in large numbers against the state than the Americans.

In Europe there's a wide expectation that the State takes responsability for shared social services and things like healthcare are considered social services (note that spending on healthcare as % of GDP in Europe is half that of the US and outcomes are better). However, in Europe (with the notable expection of the UK) there is also the expectation that individuals take responsability for their own actions, hence no silly "May contain nuts" warnings in bags of nuts or crazy accident lawsuits for hurting your pinky.

In other words, communal services and activities are often the responsability of the state as are broad social rules, but individual actions are the responsability of the individual and no business of the state.

In that sense it's not nanny state in the same sense as the US or UK.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 13:23 | 3213629 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I agree - the kind of "nanny state" intrusions that regularly happen in the UK and US would be unthinkable on the european continent

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 15:00 | 3213923 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Here in the uk most people i know see healthcare as a right equal to your 2nd amendment, there will always be fraud, abuse and corruption, but the belief that it is a right not an optional extra is real.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:26 | 3214577 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

In Europe people have been more interested in their central governement and politics because the governements there are tentacular, omnipresent.   When a central government has fewer powers and roles it just doesn't get the mindshare of the people.    

I like the euro-sign guys comments though, in some aspects.    Mark Steyn has noted the US has been spending like a european country but only taxing a little more than usual, and noted this is unsustainable.  

Its the MATH, stupid.    Apparently the public doesn't get it yet, but Math does not care about our whims.   Math abides.  It does not sleep.   It is coming for Europe and the US.    Europe's sclerosis is unrecoverable.   It has to have people to be dynamic and it hasn't been terribly fecund for so many decades now that it is unrecoverable.   The US could just revert to fiscal sanity and chop entitlements back and pull out nicely, because America's got people, young people that is, babies and teenagers and so on.     An extended family christmas party has a lot more grandchildren than grandparents, whereas in a lot of Europe it is pretty morbid.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 13:20 | 3213621 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

the way a government is set up through voting shapes the way people feel about it (my point and opinion)

if you have a representative parliament - voted in a proportional way, then you'll find and feel yourself represented, even if the party of your choice is very small

and so less hostile, because you have a better pulse on how your issues are handled (with the exception of the very smallest of parties)

the key of our system, in general, is to have parliament as the ultimate authority, and derive everything else from there

and so we don't elect a Prime Minister directly, but have a majority in parliament formed first (which can shift and kick him out)

the whole system is equally prone to corruption, but this can be handled faster, with whole parties disappearing after a serious scandal


simplified: with our system, the majority in the US congress would be in charge, and Boehner would be head of gov (LOL)

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 15:04 | 3213928 Surprese
Surprese's picture

In Europe there are mixed electoral systems, but there is one common thing: We elect parliaments (our Congress), not governments (our state governors)!

This happens both at national and European level. The European Parliament is elected directly by the people, and the Parliament nominates the Commission and it's President.

That's why people blame the politicians and riot on the street demanding their expulsion from governments, but accept that the parliament stays in place, and choses another team of 'governors', just like what happened in Greece and Italy, with Monti.

This model has its origin in the UK parliamentary monarchy of the 17th century, that was followed by most european countries afterwards, even if they are republics.

Moreover, the dark ages of dictatorship make us afraid of giving too much power to one man (the President), so in Europe the presidents are usually akin to the Queen of England (with the notorious exception of France).

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:30 | 3214584 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

I'd say the "notable" exception of France, as France is too pathetic (militarily) nowadays to merit an "orious" on there.   Seriously, they need help getting troops to shithole former colonies in their own backyard.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:44 | 3212954 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

a conservative vision of a national militia, includes the draft, staggered service until you'r grey and armed citizenship in one package

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:16 | 3213061 knowless
knowless's picture

What's the liberal version?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:36 | 3213111 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Like Roman times.  Send the Army to be destroyed on chicken shit wars and missions which bankrupt the country - meanwhile the Senate loots and destroys the country and is invaded by (illegals) vandals, huns and visigoths.

Some of them like Sen. Bob Memndez spend time with young prostitutes that he rapes.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 13:21 | 3213622 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

a paid, voluntary army

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:29 | 3212913 100pcDredge
100pcDredge's picture

FUCK! the eh... United Somethings. I think... Maybe.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:33 | 3212919 thismarketisrigged
thismarketisrigged's picture

looks like bernankes printer maybe broken today. im sure he will get it fixed as soon as possible.


rest assured, whatever losses we have today, these criminals will find a way to get it all back and then some this week.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:38 | 3212933 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Shit, pay attention.  They profit from any market moves, up or down.  Look at the short positions going into the month, way down.  Don't worry, Goldman and JP Morgan were well positioned, they are the Fed and they know if the printer is running or not.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:35 | 3212925 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

...conclusion that America is becoming socialized, that having money and being successful is a bad thing..

Well not exactly. Thats how elites protect themselves. Having money is a good thing, earning money is a bad thing. That ring fences the existing merged political/business elites and crushes all the pesky social climbers together with the middle class. The story on fascism in action, friends.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:40 | 3212942 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Bingo, regulatory capture is a bitch and the monied corporations own your "representation", this is how they stay "monied".  Print us up another trillion Ben...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:43 | 3212950 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

Stopped reading at

"The recent national election in the United States clearly demonstrated the oft quoted phrase that “Americans vote from their pocketbooks.”


The Tea Party and the religious rights have marginalized the effectiveness of the Republican Party, that is what the election proved.


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:48 | 3212966 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



The progressive Republican Party would now have a moonbase had it not been for those jerks.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:48 | 3212967 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

Ahem.. If i may.. Republican party has marginalized itself. As noone knows wtf it stands for anymore.

I believe the fuhrer said "he who controls the youth controls the future." Dems are wise they have been grinding at the roots of that tree for generations.
Incidentally, Lenin had a good quote: "a man with a gun controls 100 without one." Dems have been pretty clever to memorize that one too..

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:09 | 3213240 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

The modern republican party is the undercover wing of the democrat party, subverting conservative America from the inside, while the democrats attack it from the outside.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:31 | 3213115 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Not quite.  Last time I looked there was something on the books about a representative republic and how the people's voices are heard through their delegates.  Maybe the GOP shouldn't have tossed those Paul delegates out of the convention on a bogus vote after all?  Stupid fucks.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 12:16 | 3213456 Wilcat Dafoe
Wilcat Dafoe's picture

The controlled media began villifying the Tea Party almost immediately because it, like the Occupy movement, was largely about ending bankster bailouts.

So they floated the "everyone who wants lower taxes and Constitutionally limited government is a racist" meme around and liberals, being hipper-than-thou myopic cunts, swallowed that shit whole...

So Obama, the nobel peace price winning emperor now has the tacit blessing of the "progressives"
to keep sending US troops and 'advisors' and money to an increasing number of countries while essentially suspending habeus corpus for the execution of anyone he deems is a 'terrorist'.

Jesus - the way they got the Left to sit up and bark "racist" and "right wing" as they simultenaously gave their Black Messiah a pass for shit they'd have been in the streets about were it Bush - is breathtaking.


Liberals are fucking idiots, and their shit grows tedious.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:43 | 3212951 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

"This story brought to you by the Fascist Party."


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:44 | 3212956 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

Obamacare has fuck all to do with healthcare.


Obamacare is the calculated effort to expand unionization in the US.


Unionization is dead in the private sector.  The only place to survive is in the government.  And then condition all government work from unionized organizations only.


Personal taxes will be at 50% very soon and a national VAT in the order of 15-20% is the end point.  Socialism has nothing to do with equality.  It just keeps the "trust baby" elites in charge without having them to compete.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:59 | 3213001 knowless
knowless's picture

Eventually it makes more sense to not work, then what?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:20 | 3213075 MrBoompi
MrBoompi's picture

So if we're going to have socialized medicine, how about real socialized medicine like they have in England, France, or Germany. It seems conservatives have no fucking clue what socialism is these days. It's a mistake to confuse fascism with socialism.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:23 | 3213087 knowless
knowless's picture

How are the nations of Europe fairing financially currently?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:37 | 3213133 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

Better than the USA. Unfortunately they don't have enough aircraft carriers to externalize their losses...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:40 | 3213145 knowless
knowless's picture

Us military interventionism doesn't benefit Europe?, that's a tad ignorant.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:25 | 3213305 Acet
Acet's picture

Not really.

It mostly benefits a certain Theocratic nation in the middle east. Whatever little benefits that Europe feels in terms of oil prices make a lot less difference to Europe than the US since Europeans use much less oil per-capita.

Additionally European governments feel forced to join the Americans in war so that US companies don't end up with all the spoils excluding European companies of the conquered nations. If it wasn't for having to go along in American wars of conquest, Europe would save money in military costs and get less hate from the inhabitants of those areas.

It would be far better if everybody just left all the nutcases in the middle east to just kill each other.


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:40 | 3213351 knowless
knowless's picture

you actually believe that nations of men can live at peace?

your hubristic arrogance will bring an end to you.

maybe you should ask the baiji how they feel about that assertion.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 13:32 | 3213651 Acet
Acet's picture

I don't believe that US military interventions are beneficial to anybody outside the US and in fact I don't believe they are beneficial to most people inside the US. That was my answer to your initial statement.

[How did you go from my answer to me being a believer in a fantasy world of peace on Earth, dogs and cats together and everything is fairies, rainbows and unicorns is beyond me. Straw man much!?]

I doubt the Middle East would be a peacefull place without American intervention, but I can't say for sure. I am 100% sure the Middle East is not a peacefull place with American intervention.

The single biggest difference between both states is that if left alone they would just kill each with mostly crap weaponry while as things stand, they're killing each other with modern weaponry AND blowing up stuff in Western nations AND we (and I include Europe in "we") have seen our coffers emptying all the while getting the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents in our hands - all of this to make a couple of rich people richer, protect some of the most xenophobic people on the face of the planet (both jewish and muslim) and to keep in power some sheiks whose ancestors were fucking camels in the desert less than 70 years ago.

Best leave them be - we have far greater problems at home.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 15:09 | 3213967 Surprese
Surprese's picture

Ron Paul wouldn't have said it better!

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:37 | 3214610 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

If Obama's EPA will "Release the Frackin" the oil and gas from the middle east will be the rest of the world's problem to secure supplies of.    Good luck with that euro-peons!

Currently the private sector is unleashing this resource at high speed, but never underestimate the capacity of statist control freaks like those at the top of the federal government from thwarting a good thing.    Keystone XL pipeline is the same story.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:12 | 3213252 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Socialized medicine isn't about caring for people, it's about CONTROLLING them. Control their bodies (socialized medicine), control their minds (free public education), and you control the people.

Anybody who can't see that is a fucking retard.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:37 | 3213339 Acet
Acet's picture

Medical care suffers for two problems that make it not work well in a Free Market:

- A person with an urgent, life-threatening condition is willing to pay whatever it takes to survive. This allows professionals to take advantage of people in that situation.

- People going to the doctor are almost entirelly in the hands of that doctor since they can't really evaluate the quality of the medical care they receive. It's a bit like going to the garage to have your car fixed, running the risk of getting a scummy car mechanic that overcharges you many times the true cost, expect that the human body is far more complex than a car and you can't get a new one if the old one breaks for good, so the stakes are vastly higher.


In addition to that, there are large negative externalities relating to disease, more specifically, the fact that a sick person will often make others sick. If most people only go for treatment when they are at the point of being so sick that they have no other option than to pay for treatment, they will have made lots of other also sick, which not only means that those other will have to spend money on treatment, but also means that they are less or not productive while sick. It is thus often better for an economy to have free Universal Healthcare.

That said, Obamacare is not free Universal Health care and it actually seems to be the worse of both worlds.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:42 | 3213359 knowless
knowless's picture

that's why doctors take an oath. and there are laws against usury and extortion.

the affordle care act was written by the insurance companies, the scummy car mechanics in your analogy.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 13:42 | 3213683 Acet
Acet's picture

And yet the US system (pre-Obamacare) consumed twice as much as percentage of GDP than most European systems, for slightly worse outcomes (for example, the US has a higher child mortality).

Then there is the small detail of civil lawsuits (and the enormous amounts of money spent on those and protecting from those), which does seem to indicate that doctor's Oaths and criminal law were indeed not enough for them to be beyond reproach.

[PS: Funny trust in the medical profession coming from somebody that just some posts above was ranting against me because in your eyes I was a believer in world peace. People will kill each other for stupid reasons yet all doctors are honest because of their Oath. Yea, right!]

[PPS: I'm not saying that Obamacare is better]


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:45 | 3214627 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Child mortality stats aren't kept the same way from country to country, for example not counting preemies, whose death doesn't count.   In the US we count 'em all.

As to civil lawsuits proving there is malpractice, well no, that's no proof at all.      Juries and ambulance chasing lawyers are chasing big insurance claims that are available BECAUSE of the risk of crushing lawsuits where they'll not get a fair shake.   Doctors and hospitals and clinics insure themselves ever more solidly against these, which causes there to be more money available for civil settlements, and so it goes.     TEXAS once agains showed the way a few years back by forcing tort reform in this area, and this has drawn a flood of doctors and clinics moving there to practice and do research.    At the national level no such thing could come down.   The lawyers are very powerful in the USA.   The write the laws, argue them, and judge them.    You are either a lawyer in the USA or you are a target(apologies to attack submarine captains).

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:52 | 3212970 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"The people with money pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on goods and services. The corporations pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on acquisitions, dividends or growing their business."

And yet the opposite has been true for 40 years -- lower taxes on the wealthy, lower actual tax rate (e.g., what they really pay) on large corporations who have had record profits by offshoring etc.  So basically the author is arguing against the fix that he proposes because it's already been tried and failed.  The truly wealthy (the ones who have most of the money) don't spend more when taxes go down.  Their discretionary spending is whatever they want it to be.  The rest goes offshore.   And corporations -- who write the laws -- generally figure out a way to be tax neutral.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:52 | 3212979 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:59 | 3213006 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

Yes but with certain caveats.
Obviously sam walton's kids dont give a rats ass about taxes - their billions are all under lock and key so to speak.
Carried interest taxed at long term cap gains rate is absurd.
However the successful professionals and small business owners which are the ones that the economy should promote get rear-ended by what you call progressive tax rates.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 13:50 | 3213711 Acet
Acet's picture

It's always the middle class that pays. Poor people get benefits, rich people can hire sleazy accountants and even politicians to avoid paying any taxes at all.

That said, progressive taxes are not the problem per-se: it's the levels at which top tax-rates kick in and the overly complex and loophole ridden tax system that are wrong.

In the end a flat tax for all kinds of income would probably be the best solution (even though in principle a progressive tax might sound good) simply because the lowering bureaucratic costs an closing of loopholes that comes with the flat tax makes up for the increase in taxation on the less well off.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 16:24 | 3214230 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

+1 a flat tax with a "per-head kick-back" is progressive, btw

ask X%, give X/Y% back, per person

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:14 | 3213264 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

You're right-- we can only conclude that income taxes are inherently unjust, and must be eliminated. Of course, the founding fathers enshrined that in the Constitution, but it seems that we've excised or ignored most of their good ideas from that document.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:55 | 3212993 AbelCatalyst
AbelCatalyst's picture

It's all unsustainable and Japan is the furthest down the road. The Yen is in the process of imploding and when the world sees the consequences money will flow to safety - the US10 year yield will drop below 1% and the US dollar will skyrocket... Then the money printing will commence in earnest and we'll see unprecedented inflation across the world. First deflation, beginning in Japan, then inflation because the only solution is a printing press... Watch Japan and wait... Gold will drop a little more as will the stock market, but the Central Banks response is what is going to kill this thing... inflation is the endgame but we will not get there until money printing reaches a fever pitch due to some catalyst/crisis.... Just my opinion, but seems to make sense...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:37 | 3213135 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Maybe, but money printing is already faster than ever before, unfortunately it is simply going into paying interest to the 0.01 %, hence the velocity  has remained tame.  This is classic mis-allocation and mal-investment, something that bankruptcy normally clears out, but precisely what you get when you bail everybody out and ignore the rule of laws and contracts.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:45 | 3213158 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

The 0.01% have complete control of the printing presses now.

Just keep sending your sons and daughters to the Military so they can shoot all of us with their drones.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:03 | 3213216 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Bullshit.  Printing presses are irrelevant now.  This has always been about the power and control over resources, period.  Some things never change.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 09:57 | 3212999 ektor
ektor's picture

You are so funny, poor americans who are socialized ...

thanks for the lol

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:05 | 3213026 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

Horse manure.

The rich want to be taxed because the alternative is to declare them, rightly, insolvent!


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:12 | 3213046 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

"The corporations pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on acquisitions, dividends or growing their business."


The CORPORATIONS spend money on anything other than Executives bonuses?


In what movie?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:19 | 3213071 knowless
knowless's picture

Have you had a job before?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:23 | 3213085 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

Before and now, always self-employed as a consultant. And I have eyes too: I see every day where the corporate money goes...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:30 | 3213112 knowless
knowless's picture

Then why so blatantly "corporations are problem" isn't it maybe a bigger issue than just that?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:42 | 3213155 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

Seriuosly? OK:

1) Corporations have non long-term general vision, only short term gains interest;

2) Corporations have no accountability to others than a very restricted elite in control;

3) Corporations have no envinromental concerns, even if they live in the same world as every other being.

In general, corporation are automaton more similar to cancer cells than sensate living organisms.

Enough? ;-D

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:50 | 3213171 knowless
knowless's picture

Who grants a corporation title to exist? I'm still not getting your point.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:54 | 3213185 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

Who? Formally the political institutions. Factually the PERSONS that incarnate those institutions: i.e. the cronies of the same corporate entities...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:02 | 3213212 knowless
knowless's picture

so then you deny the posibility of curruption of a government?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:19 | 3213284 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

I sustain the evidence that today there is no real difference between the interest of top level corporative power and the top level persons in governative instituions, because the persons are the same, and their self-interests are the only ones they care of, not the ones of the poeple on which they should base their right to govern.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:53 | 3213181 knowless
knowless's picture

My corporation, as recognised by the united states government by my social security number, has a very clear vision.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:57 | 3213194 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture



But this corporation keep in consideration that its vision itself should be coordinated whit the visons of every others person, or not?


Because otherwise this is the vison of a cancer...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:01 | 3213210 knowless
knowless's picture

under whose laws do we live? where are they written?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:14 | 3213260 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

They our genes and our memes.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:17 | 3213271 knowless
knowless's picture

then what text do lawyers reference?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:22 | 3213294 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

In general? The legal memes they prefer to use for their maximum gain.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:27 | 3213315 knowless
knowless's picture

then the government has failed to uphold just law, so why blame some abstraction as "corporations" when what you mean is more truely, the elite of the nation?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:34 | 3213331 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

Because the failure started and growed with the growth of the alternative power structures known as corporations, and with the acceptance that an organization that don't have to respond of its actions to all the people but only to the minority known as shareholders is not only acceptable, but "good".

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:36 | 3213337 knowless
knowless's picture

how then should we best organise ourselves?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:41 | 3213354 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

In a continuos stream of total low-lewel parteciaption in every political and economical decision, based on an education that empower people to partecipate in a rational way.

Or with an illuminated dictature.

The political stucture is contextual and not important: the long term goals & the rational use of resource for the maximun general good is.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:46 | 3213369 knowless
knowless's picture

so not some form of democracy then? not in our best interest to have some form of indirect control over the legal framework?

who decides which and how are educated? and in what way? who decides what is "rational"?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:56 | 3213402 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

We can go on in this way forever. I cannot demonstrate to you someting that for me is self-evident? OK, my bad, you win the match by default: I quit and lets agree to disagree on every point! :-)

Sorry. but I must work at least a little today, otherwise I should enroll in some foodstamps program if I want to eat tomorrow. ;-D

Have a nice corporate day...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 12:07 | 3213426 knowless
knowless's picture


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:47 | 3214631 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

I junked you starting with 1), which is just retarded.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:14 | 3213049 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture


The article must be a joke

"the rich are getting poorer" ??? ... (in your fantasies)

corporations and the rich "invest" ???  ... (off-shore accounts, militarism to seize resources and eliminate competitors, Homeland police to protect their ASSets)

taxes are collected to give to the "poor" ??? ... ( certainly not for bankster handouts and warmaking profiteering. And funds purportedly collected for workers are never plundered or ever debased by currency devaluation)

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:16 | 3213062 MrBoompi
MrBoompi's picture

I know partisan hogwash when I see it. Taxes bad. Food stamps bad. Democrats bad. If only we just served up whatever the "job creators" want, everything will be OK. Fine but let's not forget we've been kissing the wealthy's asses for 30 years and have nothing much to show for it. The republicans, apparently your saviours, support and defend this plutocracy. God help us if they're the answer.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:20 | 3213066 gratefultraveller
gratefultraveller's picture

Well, 51.x percent of the german upper house of parliament are *not* directly elected, they enter because their parties have given them a spot high enough to garantee them a place based on the amount of over-all votes that party gets in the national elections. Only the remainder of 48,x percent is directly elected by the voters.

It does work well to keep up the appearance of "democracy" in the minds of the people, though.

Ah, the German Constitutional Court has called out this system as being unconstitutional, and a minor electoral reform has been passed. This reform has not, however, changed the fundamental (undemocratic) mechanics of the system.

in reply to Ghordius' comment above:

two concepts: proportional voting system, election of parliament, not of administration (France, the UK & Romania are good examples of how to screw one of the two)

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 13:06 | 3213584 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

a complete misrepresentation of the german upper house (Bundesrat of Germany). why don't you stick to the simplest way: it's the government of the federal state that votes in one bloc (one state, one vote). similar to the EU council, btw, and not much different from the US Senate before 1913. ergo, no direct vote, but the representation/delegation of a majority of a parliament

the German Constitutional Court is fretting about a little understood mathematical issue around the voting system of the german lower house, btw, called "overhang seat". This is a little feature of the (imho excellent) hybrid voting system they use, the MMP (Mixed Member Proportional) that in 2009 were 24 on a total of 622 (3.8%), and were already a feature in the first time in 1949, 2 out of 402 (0.5%)

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:22 | 3213079 which way weste...
which way western man's picture

duplicate of above

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:22 | 3213081 which way weste...
which way western man's picture

The Fable of Ducks and Hens

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 10:29 | 3213105 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

"Corporations pay higher taxes". You mean like G.E.?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 12:31 | 3213114 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

The rich are poorer.

Poorer than what? Than what they want to be? Damn straight: just like everybody else. 

Growth is an idol and suffering comes from the attachment to desire.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:00 | 3213208 Unstable Condition
Unstable Condition's picture

Becoming socialized??

Surely you jest...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:18 | 3213276 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Yep-- the process is just about done. Just got to get those pesky guns out of their hands, and the transformation will be complete.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:23 | 3213299 moneybots
moneybots's picture

" The rich are poorer, the middle class is poorer,"


In 2011, the average CEO of an S&P 500 company madean average  380 times the average employee.

In July 2005, KBH stock price peaked.  Bruce Karatz sold 150 million that month.  The common middle class shareholder saw the value of their KBH stock drop precipitously.

Who got much richer and who got poorer?


The New Deal was the result of the financial fraud that occurred in the 1920's.  That fraud was washed, rinsed and repeated in the Nasdaq/Housing Bubble era.  Surprise, the same reaction occurs again.


Mathematics:  100% of booms end in a bust.  100% of bubbles burst and deflate.  100% of manias end badly.  100% of Ponzi schemes fail.  Yet Greenspan DOUBLED DOWN on the FED policy that lead into the Great Depression.  Surprise again:  Zero Hedge announced recently that this is now the worst recovery ever.  Mathematics:  The bigger the boom, the bigger the bust.  It was the bigger boom.  Zero Hedges headline was written in 2005, when Bruce Karatz was running off with 150 million in the biggest housing bubble ever.  It took them 7 years before they posted it.

The boom causes the bust.  Fraud is at the heart of every boom, which is why every boom goes bust.  It is during the bust, that the fraud comes to true light of day.

10,000 honest appraisers petiioned the government about appraisal fraud in 2001.  I never heard about this until Karl Denninger mentioned it- after housing busted.

Glass Steagall was dismantled and bankers immediately abused their freedom to take personal responibility, instead of  responsibility being enforced upon them by regulation.

Now come all the complaints about new regulations.  Well, they should have thought about that when they decided to abuse their new won freedom from regulation in 1999.


The Europisation of America?  No, the equal and opposite reaction to another financial fraud that was bigger than the one which preceeded it in the 1920's.  Thank Greenspan and Goldman Sachs, among others.


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:42 | 3213361 sbenard
sbenard's picture


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 11:48 | 3213374 ZetaEx
ZetaEx's picture

"The people with money pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on goods and services. The corporations pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on acquisitions, dividends or growing their business."

These kinds of fallacies need to stop being repeated on Zerohedge. Corporate and business investments are TAX DEDUCTABLE. They are made PRE-TAX. The reasons your DONT see more business investment is BECAUSE taxes are so LOW.

Those that actually earn money are only interested in increasing net worth, and will choose the easiest means to do so. High Taxes (i.e. 90% tax rates) means the easiest road to grow net worth is expansions in a personal business (i.e. economic growth + jobs for everyone) or charitable organization (Arts, libraries etc..) and guarding those investments through long term planning. LOW taxes means the easiest path to growth in net worth is corporately extractive (High Salaries, Cash payouts, stock dividends) and all sorts of gimmickry that lead to SHORT Term planning. Now tell me... in our current environment... what practices do we see?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 12:30 | 3213488 Walt D.
Walt D.'s picture

If you think the money is only being transferred to the poor, close your eyes and repeat the following mantra:

"Solyndra,Solyndra, Solyndra .. Solyndra".

In America, what do you call a person who has a 3G Cellphone, Basic Cable, a flat panel TV, a 2 year old SUV and lives in a house with central heating and air conditioning? .... poor?

The only real poverty in America is intellectual poverty.


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 12:32 | 3213492 gdiamond22
gdiamond22's picture

The time to prepare is now, but the equity market will keep going up. The Free Money bubble will last longer than you think. Equity markets are a good hedge of inflation just has gold is. 4 more years of trillion dollar central bank monopoly money will put a floor on any 'crashes'. And if I'm wrong - fantastic. Long gold, AR-10, ammo and water.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 12:34 | 3213503 smartstrike
smartstrike's picture

Propagandists often state that CEOs earn huge salaries because they're talented and you need to pay for talent. But union employees making high 6 figures salaries are taking advantage of corrupt public system?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 14:30 | 3213826 dadichris
dadichris's picture

instead of the Fed, JPMorgan, CitiCorp, BoA etc. - it's those pesky europeans that are destroying the US! ROFLMAO!!!

P.S. GS go f**k yourself

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