It Is Not The United States Of Europe; Just The Opposite

Tyler Durden's picture

Via Mark J. Grant, author of Out of the Box,

It is not the United States of Europe but the other way around; the Europization of the United States. It is not a new game but a very old game and not played with such fervor in America since Franklin Delano Roosevelt stirred the pot which was done in an attempt to end the consequences of the Great Depression. This morning’s commentary is not meant just for political consideration but what the ramifications of the Democrat’s strategy will do and are doing to the financial markets.  Round I has now all but ended and the next Round will, in my opinion, bring entirely different results.
Round I consisted of the response of the world’s central banks which was to flood the globe with money in a bid to curtail the financial crisis of 2008/2009. This has buoyed all of the markets, each and every market, because small pieces of green and blue paper must be put somewhere. There are consequences for this however and five years later, which is now, I believe we are about to have to start dealing with them. It may be Inflation or, even worse, Valuation but we are beginning to see the signs of change as Treasuries begin to head higher in yields which will affect all of the other bond markets and then the equity markets as a matter of relative value. Keep your eye fixed on the long bond and on gold as primal indicators of what is to come.
The recent national election in the United States clearly demonstrated the oft quoted phrase that “Americans vote from their pocketbooks.” Fluff, philosophy and hyperbole are the centerpieces of the American elections but when real money is on the table it is from here that most people vote because it is in their self-interest to do so. The scenario is not too complicated and Romney was correct, if perhaps politically stupid, that a large portion of Americans will vote for the Democrats because they are giving them social programs and entitlements which may be read as “Money” to do so. People just are not going to vote to cut off their own flow of funds and so the lower classes in America, en masse, have voted and will vote to keep the money coming. This strategy has ramifications however because the money must come from somewhere and so we have entered the arena where more and more taxes will be demanded from individuals and corporations to “keep the Spice flowing.”
This was clearly demonstrated in Obamacare, in our latest round of tax increases on individuals and in yesterday’s comments from the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, who did not speak about curtailing social programs at all but focused on increasing taxes on oil and gas companies and on increasing corporate taxes in general while curbing write-offs. America now has the European infection, in my opinion, where personal taxes are as high as 75% in France and not too far behind that in many other European countries. Corporate taxes are also generally higher in Europe and the banks are the bedfellows of the State which are used to control and dominate the social programs of the various governments. There is no way around the general conclusion that America is becoming socialized, that having money and being successful is a bad thing, which is the general philosophy in Europe, and that the United States is going through a very serious moment of social and monetary equalization where those with capital are supposed to pay a great deal of it out to those who do not have capital as a matter of their patriotic duty.
This bouncing ball is not too tough to follow. The people with money pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on goods and services. The corporations pay higher taxes and then have less money to spend on acquisitions, dividends or growing their business. The money flows to the people who are not in the middle class but are poorer and it gets spent on the basics of life and not on consumer durables. The rich are poorer, the middle class is poorer, the poor become better off at first and then less well off in the second instance as taxes bleed the entire economy of excess capital. Votes are, in fact, bought and paid for but the money used to pay for them will begin to dry up as the Europization of America continues unabated. This will also have a profound impact upon all of the financial markets which will dovetail into the consequences of the central banks and so even that capital gets down streamed and leaves the markets by way of ever increasing higher taxes for both corporations and individuals. I expect soon, and it has certainly been rumored, that not just will the Democrats go after the exemption on Municipal bonds but that they will propose some kind of national Value Added Tax (VAT) which will be one more method to take money from those that earn it and hand it over to those who do not to assure their political stewardship of the nation or, more bluntly stated, to keep themselves in power which is always the main goal of politicians of course.
I point all of this out this morning not to state right or wrong but to state with clarity that the markets will be seriously impacted by all of this. The equity markets may be at all-time highs today as fed by the central banks but a turn is coming, a quite severe turn in my view, which will wipe the glitter from the ornaments. As Treasury yields begin to rise and as markets reassess relative value then the rose petals will begin to fall and if the central banks begin to end their monetary flood at the same time then “Katie Bar the Door” will be the result.
Later will be too late. The time to prepare is now!

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
GetZeeGold's picture



It's no fun.....being an American European.

Sudden Debt's picture

It's a bit like having the body of Albert Einstein and the brains of Arnold Schwarzeneger...


fourchan's picture


central banking is a disease and yes its a jewish one, once a contry imports it, it has imported a new master.

and you ar no longer free in any sense of the word.  END THE FED.

Ratscam's picture

Zionist not jewish, big difference!

economics9698's picture

Yippee another day of anti-Semitic rants.

francis_sawyer's picture

It's funny that the only place I ever see your 'so-called' 'anti-semitic' rants is on financial sites... I wonder why? 


Quick!... I know... Since it's all about that faceless 'ZIONISM' sect, let's ave some fun... Let's draft a FANTASY LEAGUE... Each team gets to pick 20 players...

Team "A" are all the 'Zionists' [who aren't jews in any way, or aren't lackeys to a jew in a position of power in banking, MSM, or politics]

Team "B" are simply Jews [notwithstanding whether or not they are 'so-called' Zionists]... They ought to be tough to find because they only represent 1% of the worlds population...


Let's build those rosters [using our drafting skills], & see who has the most power...

I'll be the coach of 'Team B': Here's my roster ~ [which I'm SEVERELY handicapped here ~ because I'm only drafting from 1% population demographic pool]

Bernanke ~ Prints worthless paper [to benefit only his cronies], tells you "Subprime is contained", "We will not monetize debt", "Gold is not money"... Likes to fly helicopters in his spare time... 

Rothschild ~ "Give me the power to control a nations money & I care not who makes it's laws"

Greenspan ~ Chair warmer for Bernanke... Enjoys bubble baths...

Geithner ~ Tax expert

Dimon ~ Loves manipulating the PAPER price of PM's... Has the franchise on your EBT cards...

Blankfein ~ Doing 'God's work'

Kissinger ~ Sith Lord

Greenberg ~ Almost singlehandedly wrote the entire CDS market [giving 'above' teammates a free run at tilting the field towards themselves & gobbling up everything]

Summers ~ 2 time cabinet member/advisor to POTUS responsible for keeping the Executive Branch in line with the 'Overlords' agenda... Likes bankrupting Harvard in his spare time...  

Rubin ~ taught Summers everything he knows [cept 'eating donuts' ~ that Summers accomplished on his own]...

Wolfowicz ~ Ombudsan for "W"

Warburg ~ engineered the 'Meeting at Jeckyll Island'

Netanyahu ~ Warmongering joochebag who thinks Iran should be glass 

Ben Gurion ~ Father of 'Apartheid State'

Bloomberg ~ Runs a media empire & the most importnt city in the world... He wants yur guns taken from you

Krugman ~ useful idot 

Feinstein ~ wants your guns too [while she's not busy counting her money made when her husband benefits from US~Israeli business deals]

Zoellick ~ Former IMF head & CFR member

Perle ~ another 'Bush Era' plant put there to perpetuate the never ending 'War on Terror'

Alinsky ~ Makes sure that the university system is full of professors that future generations of students to be good 'socialists'...

Corzine ~ Roams the world FREE [searching for something to rehypothecate], when he's not fundraising for Manchurian candidates

Emmanuel ~ Runs things 'the Chicago Way' [only after he made sure Washington would be run 'Chicago Style' untl 2017]...

[I could easily do better if I bothered to try]...


Your turn...

dick cheneys ghost's picture

Francis, could you make a team for the MSM and Hollywood?


Thanks in advance

francis_sawyer's picture

In 2 seconds & off the top of my dome I could toss out: Disney, Eisen, Katzenberg, Geffen, Spielberg, Redstone, Moonves, etc...


Hell ~ just go to the roster of 'central casting' [or, easier, just watch The Oscars]...

Darth Sidious's picture

hey dipshit, as much as team zion would like them in our camp, Geitner and Corzine are on your team.  sorry. 

francis_sawyer's picture

Geithner’s father, Peter, was a "secular Jew" and was known to periodically attend an Episcopal Church, perhaps to further his or his son’s career. The senior Geithner served as director of the Ford Foundation’s Asia program in the 1980s and was Ann Dunham’s (Barack Obama’s mother) boss and financier of her microfinance development projects in Indonesia.

Tim Geithner is married to a Jewish woman, Carole Sonnenfeld, and they have two children, named Benjamin and Elise. Geithner’s Jewish bloodline and family loyalty to Zionist causes earned him fast advancement. He is a member of the globalist Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), was a director of the International Monetary Fund and held the post of president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. He worked at Kissinger and Associates in Washington for three years and was mentored by Larry Summers, the Clinton White House’s Treasury Secretary. Geithner was also Undersecretary of Treasury when Robert Rubin was Treasury Secretary. Kissinger, Summers, and Rubin are all Jews, and the CFR is a Jewish organization—seventy-five percent of its members are Jews.

Reportedly, Geithner plays tennis two or three times a week with pal and crony Alan Greenspan (Jew), former Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board.

As Obama’s Secretary of the Treasury, Tim Geithner has been a generous benefactor and financier for Jewish-owned banks and insurance giants like Goldman Sachs, Citicorp, and AIG, as well as foreign banks such as Europe’s Deutsche Bank and Société Générale.

The Jewish Chronicle, has reported that Timothy Geithner is Jewish. Writing in the November 6, 2008 on-line issue, Shmuel Rosen mentions Geithner specifically as Jewish and notes that "The Jews (are) set to play a central role in Obama’s administration."

In sum, Geithner is a bagman for international Jewish banks and Wall Street and a Rothschild-Soros-IMF stooge and actor. By both blood and conduct, he is a Jew. Geithner’s religious devotion, then, is to the god of greed. As the noted 19th century Jewish writer Heinrich Heine so sagely observed, "Money is the god of the Jews, and Rothschild is his prophet."


Corzine operates in much the same way... But if you want to get picky about it, I'll DROP him & add SOROS...

Darth Sidious's picture

listen needle dick, you obviously don't get how our international conspiracy works . . . we only let those with maternal lineage into the club.  So, Geitner is out of luck, regardless of who he plays tennis with.  I realize your Nazi friends have different rules (i.e., if you are 1/4 jewish, you are jewish), but the international conspiracy makes its own rules, we don't take other's rules for us.

So Geitner is on your team.  You've got plenty of good players like J.P. Morgan, Hank Paulson, Louis Bacon, Julian Robertson, Merill, Lynch, Pierce , fenner, smith, etc. etc.  So you should do fine in the destroying the world through banking contest.

If you persist in insisting on putting Geitner on our team you might find yourself at a mossad re-education seminar somewhere in the Negev.

francis_sawyer's picture

His name is "Ratscam" ~ TRUST HIM...

mightycluck's picture

This cat pretty much says the same thing. But with charts. And mentions Cloward-Piven.

All Risk No Reward's picture

fourchan, be sure to study up on the "over generalization" logical fallacy.  Ignoring your logical fallacy, it is worse than you think.

The criminals running this system (some of them Jewish, especially the people they put out front for public consumption while the real rulers hide in the shadows, while others are not - my Jewish neighbor is still wondering where his share of the loot is if this is his conspiracy, as well as why he isn't getting memos about neurotoxins being put in the water and GMO pesticide and herbicide saturated "foods.") are EXPORTING Debt Money Tyranny and using the American Cumptocracy to foot the bill, foot the blood and take the blame for it.

Iraq didn't have Debt Money Tyranny until it was invaded, under a false pretext, by the Big Finance Capital captured and controlled American Chumptocracy. 

Same is true with Afghanistan and Libya.  I bet you know what is going to happen with Syria and Iran in due time.

Come to think of it, even  Germany and Japan before WWII didn't have the Debt Money Tyranny yoke of debt slavery.

Napolean...  what did he say?

"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain." - Napoleon


"The government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government, but it is the government’s greatest creative opportunity. The financing of all public enterprise, and the conduct of the treasury will become matters of practical administration. Money will cease to be master and will then become servant of humanity." - Abraham Lincoln


"Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.

It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system – ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.

- Eisenhower, Farewell Speech Warning

The good news is the criminals are easy to spot - they attack the jewel that is individual human liberty.

The bad news is you live in a chumptocracy.  Granted, more people are being de-chumped as the cost of being a chump edges ever higher, but there is a long way to go.

Help spread the word...

Debt Money Tyranny

That chart ends all debate about a financial conspiracy to bankrupt America and the world.

Ghordius's picture

let me see: we are trying to get all european nations to balance their budgets

does this europeanization of the US means that this kind of policies are being introduced?

GetZeeGold's picture



At least those guys have budgets. They do.....right?

Ghordius's picture

hey, fucking over 40% of our average GDP is fucking taxes. and in the US you can have people seriously discussing if it's even feasible collecting more than 20% of GDP, and waving the "Laffer Curve" as undiscussed proof of it

of course "those guys" have budgets, and they are humungus, they'd better balance them

meanwhile the US spends as much (some 40%), collects half the taxes (23% of GDP) - and "deficits don't matter", evah

and this article has nothing to do with the real europe, only about it's perception in the US internal political debate

Cypher_73's picture

I was just about to say... 

But yeah, typical right wing bombastic blather. P.S. "Europe" isn't one amorphous mass (at least not yet) so can the generalizations. Europe also includes Scandinavian, uber socialist countries which somehow (duh) keep getting rated as the best countries to live. The US could do worse than follow Sweden's lead.

knowless's picture

You actually believe that it is realistic to think that the united states of America could be in any way similar governmentaly to tiny and demographically homogeneous Sweden?

Acet's picture

Even the whole EU, for all the problems with the Euro, with the productivity, language and culture differences between regions - and inability to accept transfer between richer states and poorer ones like a true federation - and with various different political cultures is still better run than present day's United States of America.

At least the EU doesn't spend 10% of it's GDP on cesspool of corruption and big-fat subsidy to the rich which is the Industrial Military Complex, nor has it bailed out banks to anywhere near the same level as the US, not to mention it's not printing money like the Fed.

Furthermore, all this bullshit talk of blaming welfare recipients for the country's problems is a spectacular display of blindness.

Let me put things this way: most of taxpayers' money goes to big corps and well connect individuals (one word: pork). Big corps have the vast majority of lobbyists and have bought politicians and countless laws and regulations (fixed regulations are effectivelly a hidden tax, since they reduce competitiveness in markets and are thus a cost paid by consumers). It's not single mother Sheila Doe, who gets some peanuts to remain sheep-like and vote for one of the usual suspects, that spent the hundreds of millions of dollars it took to setup the huge network of lobbyists bought politicians that created the system that America has today.


knowless's picture

your assertions are untrue to a level that they do not require refutation.



Acet's picture

Oh, I'm pretty sure time will prove me right.

Even if it breaks up, Europe is far more robust than the US simply because of the huge variety of cultures and approaches of the place. Even the crooked and corrupt politicians here are unable to work together and are thus incapable of wrecking anywhere near the same level of havoc as American politicians can.

The worse scenario for Europe still has many if not all of the nations of Europe surviving. Can you say the same for the US?

(Maybe Texas will make it)


knowless's picture

are you an american? where in this nation have you seen? what class are you?

Acet's picture

Do you speak any other language other than English?

Do you have any friends in Europe? Have you ever been in a social gathering in a country other than the US?

Ever lived anywhere else than the US for a year or more?

I'll admit that my knowledge of the US is just from being to NY ages ago (before 9/11) and from what I read in Newspapers and and forums like ZH and other, some of which I've been following for more than a decade now.

My knowledge of Europe is first hand and I've already lived in 3 different countries in Europe, with different languages, different currencies, different politics and vastly different social and cultural behaviours. I've also been on vacations to about 10 other countries in Europe alone (and can understand and be understood in the native language of about half the inhabitants of Europe, though my German is kinda crap).

PFO's picture



Good start, but you have to settle somewhere for at least three cycles of seasons before you get a feel for the place. I lived in Medjugorje, Bosne i Hercegovine for 4 over years and loved every 2nd. or 3rd. world minute of it!


First, because the folks were so REAL! When they said 'Yebegec', they meant fuck-off, not don't ever talk to me again. The next day I was over to the house for drinks and more yebegec cultural-economic-political-religious discussion.


Second, because the daily grind of life wasn't. There was no banking establishment to load the people down with debt, simply because they ALL to a toddler recognized debt=death!


The family home was just that! More kids? Relatives returned from the diaspora? Crazy Americans dropping-in to drop-out of the:


satanic-feminist-pedophile-savage capitalist-consumer-credit-culture of death


that has been imposed upon his country? NO PROBLEM! Build more rooms!


Finally, the people there are Roman Catholic and very devout Christians, heroically hospitable to strangers and the community at large. Do they argue and fight with each other? Of course! How else can you settle an issue without communication – conflict - resolution?


And like good RCs the next day, they sit down together have a drink and argue up another issue to be resolved! Makes for entertaining nights that TV can't hope to touch!


So is America becoming Europeanized? GOD I HOPE SO!!!!!


ANYTHING is better than the sterile feminist playpen this continent has been turned into!


Sto radite sutra?




Wilcat Dafoe's picture

demographically homogenous?

Once upon a time, but where have you been.  The One Worlders couldn't allow that for long, and neither could the Zionists {who based on my reading of parts of the Talmud and Old Testament are using non-Jewish confederates for sure but have no intention of sharing the pie.. this isn't 'all Jews' but it's a healthy minority with power}

For example:

I try not to throw my hat in with the "blame the X" racists and all, but the evidence of a concerted effort to make every european state a racial salad bowl, while keeping Eretz Israel pure as the Khazarian snow, is evidently a "thing" and yes, it seems 'Zionists' are a disproportional chunk of the effort.

Peter Sutherland is an interesting case - born in Ireland, he favors unfettered immigration...

Think he might, possibly, be a cryptojew?

The double-standard is pure Talmudism.  So if you're a French Jew, you advocate open borders there, but support a Jewish only state which you have dual citizenship with on the other end of the Mediterranean, and while you hate bourgeouisie colonial capitalism, you're pretty sure God Shimself said your ethnoreligious group is super special, and its not murder or war crimes when you kick out natives to create an ethnarchy.... and anyone who suggests this all smacks of double standards and Jewish Supremacism is an "antisemite" and therefore saying nothing at all of any merit.

That's a neat trick.

TBT or not TBT's picture

Culturally homogenious Sweden eh?   Been to Malmo lately?   It is Islamic, arabistanville reproducting fast and imposing its way while sucking the blood of a rapidly aging native population that will not likely recover.   Math is a harsh mistress.

Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Sweden is awesome if you want to get raped by roving bands of Muslim thugs.

Socialism always ends the same way: stagnation, corruption, violence.

Colonial Intent's picture

And you prefer to live in a country where the raping is done by old white men in suits, as long as it's a 'legitimate' rape.

TBT or not TBT's picture

Scandinavia?   Demographic death beds with arab colonies and generalised immasculation.

TotalCarp's picture

The "no fun" part is only beginning.. Watch for euro style increase in senior unelected officials in combination with severe suppression of decent. I guess luckily for barakhussein most euromerikans are too busy glued to their tvs.

Ghordius's picture

what is an "euro style unelected official"? a secretary of state, defence, treasury, etc.?

appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate?

TotalCarp's picture

Ummm how about ruling govt of Italy?
How about every post in europarliament?

Ghordius's picture

every government of Italy has to have a majority in parliament - Monti was appointed by the President of the Republic and had - until short time ago -  a majority in said parliament, ergo a confirmation - that's their constitutional setup

your second sentence is strange - do you know the definition of parliament? the EU parliament is directly elected

you are probably thinking about the EU council or it's permanent commission

Surprese's picture

No, he is thinking about the President of the USA, who is not directly elected by the people.

TBT or not TBT's picture

Our unfirable federal perma-employees are unelected.   It is hard to make a mistake grave enough to get the boot out of a federal job.

Inthemix96's picture

Well then,

That will fix it then wont it?

LawsofPhysics's picture

Interesting take on things.  So what's private gun ownership like in Europe?  Does this mean Utah is the new Switzerland?   By the way, having money is only a bad thing if the taxpayer bailed your bad business model out.  YOU SHOULD HAVE GONE OUT OF BUSINESS!!!

TotalCarp's picture

Funny enough this question popped out yesterday on one of the threads. Banker in belgium said the shotgun/hunting rifle ownership is quite decent interestingly enough. No hand guns or anything resembling an ar15 though obviously unless you are an albanian gangster.

LawsofPhysics's picture

Many countries in Europe have mandatory military service.  The Swiss all have a fully automatic rife in their homes.  It is maintained with a thousand rounds at all times.  Sounds like good models on both accounts.

TotalCarp's picture

Yep, although i did hear that it changed recently and even their theres been more regulation. Although dont for sure.

I think a very interesting point is the difference in attitude towards the govt, and maybe europeans here can comment a bit. In US i would say easily 25-35% of population at any given time view govt as THE ENEMY.
In europe, even in countries that are really hurting govt is largely viewed as incompetent but is not hated. I suspect even the horrors of greece are not pushing people over the line, rather drive them to self immolation and other horrib forms of suicide.

Ghordius's picture

two concepts: proportional voting system, election of parliament, not of administration (France, the UK & Romania are good examples of how to screw one of the two)

TotalCarp's picture

Sorry pls elaborate as i am not sure how this relates.. I was making a point about psychological perception of the govt by population.. I feel that in european countries ppl are far less hostile towards the officialdom then in US.. I got that point after discussing it w numerous brits and french and an occasional belgian..

which way western man's picture

They are used to feudalism.  

Brainwashed from cradle to grave to embrace it.

Simple as that.

TotalCarp's picture

They certainly do like nanny state. Which i find repugnant. But then again so do most NYers and californians..

Acet's picture

Europeans are both more pro-state and more likelly to demonstrate in large numbers against the state than the Americans.

In Europe there's a wide expectation that the State takes responsability for shared social services and things like healthcare are considered social services (note that spending on healthcare as % of GDP in Europe is half that of the US and outcomes are better). However, in Europe (with the notable expection of the UK) there is also the expectation that individuals take responsability for their own actions, hence no silly "May contain nuts" warnings in bags of nuts or crazy accident lawsuits for hurting your pinky.

In other words, communal services and activities are often the responsability of the state as are broad social rules, but individual actions are the responsability of the individual and no business of the state.

In that sense it's not nanny state in the same sense as the US or UK.

Ghordius's picture

I agree - the kind of "nanny state" intrusions that regularly happen in the UK and US would be unthinkable on the european continent

Colonial Intent's picture

Here in the uk most people i know see healthcare as a right equal to your 2nd amendment, there will always be fraud, abuse and corruption, but the belief that it is a right not an optional extra is real.

TBT or not TBT's picture

In Europe people have been more interested in their central governement and politics because the governements there are tentacular, omnipresent.   When a central government has fewer powers and roles it just doesn't get the mindshare of the people.    

I like the euro-sign guys comments though, in some aspects.    Mark Steyn has noted the US has been spending like a european country but only taxing a little more than usual, and noted this is unsustainable.  

Its the MATH, stupid.    Apparently the public doesn't get it yet, but Math does not care about our whims.   Math abides.  It does not sleep.   It is coming for Europe and the US.    Europe's sclerosis is unrecoverable.   It has to have people to be dynamic and it hasn't been terribly fecund for so many decades now that it is unrecoverable.   The US could just revert to fiscal sanity and chop entitlements back and pull out nicely, because America's got people, young people that is, babies and teenagers and so on.     An extended family christmas party has a lot more grandchildren than grandparents, whereas in a lot of Europe it is pretty morbid.