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The Second Housing Bubble Ends With A Bang, Not A Whimper, David Stockman Warns

Tyler Durden's picture


Following our earlier discussion of the echo-boom in housing, David Stockman appeared on Yahoo's Daily Ticker with Lauren Lyster to pour come much-needed cold water 'reality' onto the hopes of an increasingly sheep-like investing public. Homebuilder stocks up 100%-plus simply reflects that "we are in a bubble once again." The former CBO Director added that "in a world of medicated money by the central bank, things aren't what they appear to be," as he explained there is "no real organic sustainable recovery."


Stockman further contends, "It's happening in the most speculative sub-prime markets, where massive amounts of 'fast money' is rolling in to buy, to rent, on a speculative basis for a quick trade. And as soon as they conclude prices have moved enough, they’ll be gone as fast as they came." Critically, he points out we live in a world of boomers looking to be trade-down sellers, not one of trade-up buyers, as "the fast money will sell as quickly as they can and the bubble will pop almost as rapidly as it’s appeared.


He concludes that the American Dream of home-ownership 'forced' upon the citizens was a huge policy mistake as he chides, "let the market decide," as he clearly sees Bernanke recreating yet another speculative bubble.


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Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:35 | 3214606 kliguy38
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Stockman should know he was one of the early proponents in the 80s of the new he realizes he was a tool

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:39 | 3214611 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I'd be a very happy "tool" if I were sitting across from Lauren Lyster...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:54 | 3214655 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

You'd have a very happy tool if Lauren Lyster was sitting across you...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:59 | 3214667 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It would be happiness all around...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:01 | 3214674 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

I tend to disagree with Stockman because this time, there is nowhere else for money to go.  TD, if you could provide some color on the structure of these deals (investors using single family as an asset class now) it might shed some more light.  But I think Stockman is wrong.  The rotation this time is not going to be out of overpriced bonds into overpriced stocks imo.  It is out of overpriced paper and into real assets.  Again, if we could get some light shed on how these deals are structured would help, but bottom line, if the properties get rented the regardless of if the investors and hot money flee, the custodian still owns the property and there is cash flow.  Now, if property prices double in the next six months we can revisit the issue but at present Stockman is just trying to sound smart by getting his soundbite out there in hopes of an "I told you so" in a couple years to be followed up by a book deal. 

Stockman is wrong.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:22 | 3214746 malek
malek's picture

 there is nowhere else for money to go

That's like declaring we cornered stupidity, it has nowhere else to go

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:30 | 3214768 slightlyskeptical
slightlyskeptical's picture

there is nowhere else for money to go

I think it is declaring that significant amounts of money need to be lost to bring things into equilibrium.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:56 | 3214855 flacon
flacon's picture

For every loser there is a winner. Who wins the money that was lost by the "investors"?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:06 | 3214888 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:07 | 3214891 The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

Consumers looking for affordable housing.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:09 | 3214898 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:32 | 3214951 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Organic growth from 100% artificial fiat.

Alchemists have a new project that will be as successful as the base metal to gold project.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:32 | 3214953 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture



Investing in rental real estate is a good deal if:


 - You know the area like the back of your hand (Iinvestors don't know anything and don't care),


 - You have low-cost financing available so you don't have to risk your own money. (Investors in cahoots with the banks so cost is indeed low ... for the investors, high for everyone else. Taxpayers provide moral hazard for this 'science experiment').


 - You have the ability to be a good property manager and control costs: keep tenants paying on time, screen prospective tenants properly, repair property when it breaks without having to hire Halliburton, etc. (Investors are proven incompetents because they already have been bailed out once during this cycle!)


 - You intend to improve the neighborhood (Are you kidding??? Investors here don't give a flying fuck about neighborhoods or anything else. They will lease to drug dealers so they can claim higher rents).


NOTE: some flippers have made money but more have lost. See, "You must know neighborhood" section, above.


Stockman misses the point: any speculative returns are offset by losses elsewhere, these losses are not recognized by lenders on balance sheets. Here is more accounting control fraud underway right under everyone's noses!


BTW: bring Lauren Lyster out of exile! Let her have her own show, Yahoo.



Tue, 02/05/2013 - 02:31 | 3215668 ClassicalLib17
ClassicalLib17's picture

In my neck of the woods I see investors buying homes for 1970 prices with 1990 real estate taxes, but collecting top of the market rent.  That especially includes the wonderful section 8 program.  Illinois is sorely in need of a Gary Johnson right now.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:05 | 3215045 Seer
Seer's picture

It's nothing more than transaction-skimming.  Turnover.  The kings of this should be no surprise to anyone: the banking sector.  And their only risk is defaults, which, we now know, won't happen to THEM (they'll be backed by the Fed, which is backed by its powers in Govt).

Further, there's an unstated loser in all of this, and that's the System itself.  Not like this is a bad thing, the corrupt System eating itself...

And, lastly, logic and reason are big losers.  People will STILL not get why things got fucked up.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:06 | 3215049 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

This is wrong thinking.  Where did all the money go when housing prices went down 30%?  Your pocket?  Mine?  Nope, a whole bunch of trillions went to money heaven.  That is, it simply disappeared into the ether.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:10 | 3215329 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Exactly.  Everyone claims to hate fractional reserve banking, but it seems many still do not understand its full impact and horror.

Someone wrote a comment yesterday detailing gold-leasing and re-hypothecation, which resulted in many believing they held claim to the same asset (the gold).  Everyone seemed to understand the joke.  Substitute fiat for the gold, and for some reason confusion sets in, but the concept is exactly the same.  Breaks in the chain create air pockets.  There is not a winner for every loser, except in a futures trade.  In a chain, whether it results from fractional reserve or re-hypothecation, there are more losers than winners.  Bernanke, as well as Japan, have been trying to fill those air pockets for years.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:55 | 3215447 Seer
Seer's picture

" there are more losers than winners. "

Yeah.  And what is the leverage in the banking system, 30 to 1?  That would be 30 losers to 1 winner?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 03:17 | 3215695 chindit13
chindit13's picture

The term "velocity of money" is in some ways just a technical way of saying "what's yours might also be mine, and what's his might be all of ours".  We end up with multiple claims on the same "asset".

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:52 | 3215439 Seer
Seer's picture

It's still kind of there, but it's propping up the banks.  Pull it and they collapse.  So, yeah, it's pretty much gone.  Only way it could find it's way back into the light of day would be if everything were to magically start booming (odds pretty much zero) or, when the hounds of hell get unleashed and hyperinflation lets loose in some crazy notion that it's necessary to keep things from collapsing (which would be like shooting oneself in the head in order to keep from being killed).

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:18 | 3215088 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

For every loser there is a winner. Who wins the money that was lost by the "investors"?

Not necessarily.  If there is a rout in the stock market everyone loses.



Mon, 02/04/2013 - 22:58 | 3215301 Tad Ghostal
Tad Ghostal's picture

Not necessarily.  If there is a rout in the stock market everyone loses.

Not necessarily.  If there is a rout in the stock market everyone long loses, the shorts win.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 22:59 | 3215305 Argonaught
Argonaught's picture

Whoa...that's wrong.  Shorts win.  Those not brazen enough to short, but just move to cash before the rout win.  Those who never invested win.  In general, those that have capital to put to work at better prices win.  This HIGHLIGHTS the fraudulent thinking that things always going up is good. 

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:31 | 3214771 Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture

I'm with you MP that money will be searching for some place to go. a very very fundamental level.    These "rental properties" are not like homogenous commodities.   Cheap rental properties get destroyed.  (unlike farmland, or gold, or tungsten mines)  To this extent, the big money that now owns a truckload of rental properties is NOT like a flipper who's sole purpose is to add value (albeit overvalued value) to an asset.   These properties are being devalued.   "Home" buyers (not house flippers) will not want to pick up the scraps from the coming, who will buy?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:58 | 3215024 CPL
CPL's picture

You guys are forgetting the other housing market and the parasite industries to them.  Haven't seen it mentioned yet.

Cottages.  I'm not talking the tight, cozy squat in the woods with multi purpose (bed/drinking/hunting/hanging meat).  I'm talking those awful cookie cutter shit boxes.  Usual on a deep mortgage, they cost a fortune, 5% down for your piece of nature!

Because what is more fun than owning a second house to clean and fix developed by a lake.  Offered in various plots from on the water (premium Million plus) and what the locals call "a bit of a walk". All by the same people that build the McMansion and introduced the open air mall in the middle of the Tundra in Canada.  Just incase you missed the feeling of being really close to your neighbour in town.

The parasite industries are the ATV/SKidoo/Boat.  Pick one and ride it to the bottom.  The companies are really fragile. Cash is tight in them, especially in a situation that your past inventory is worth more than the new.  Thanks to the power of inflation.  Their credit facilities are slightly below loan shark with flexible remediation terms like "pay it fucking now".

So find a rec toy maker and whom ever acts as their primary credit lender for the honour of sitting on water for 19% a year on 60k.


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 22:13 | 3215221 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

Lot of truth there CPL.  The two best days in a ____ owners life are ....

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 07:13 | 3215796 CPL
CPL's picture

Like an financial anchor floatation device.  Straight to the bottom.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:36 | 3214785 Mark123
Mark123's picture

I think his point is that any "recovery" in housing is driven by speculation - not people buying houses to live in, or moving up to a bigger home.  I agree with his assessment - but it is hard to find out what is really going on out there (so much smoke).


I think the thing most people miss is that the ENTIRE mortgage market is now government owned, and the banks are just processing paperwork.  How many mortgages are being originated and held by private banks?  From what I understand the vast majority is through FHA, Fanny Freddie or some other government program to support targeted groups (military etc). 


What meager real demand there is will disappear in an instant if the Fed is forced to stop monetizing the federal govt debt. 

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:10 | 3215060 Seer
Seer's picture

No matter what the Fed and Govt do it'll eventually collapse because there are REAL physical resources required, and that many resources necessary to construct, maintain and operate houses are imported.  We can play funny-money all we want with our own toys, but when we start playing with others' toys (imports) it then costs.  The rest of the world is starting to get tired of allowing us to have PHYSICAL things for near-free.

Again, it's all summed up in this phrase: can't push on a string.  "Want" in one hand, ...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:14 | 3215071 smartstrike
smartstrike's picture

Armstrong says that money will move out of bonds into stocks.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:03 | 3215457 Seer
Seer's picture

It'll slosh back and forth until we hit a frequency (fewer and fewer players left) that results in complete dislocation of the markets.

Everyone's broke and we're gambling here, BIG TIME.  No new wealth is getting created.  Margins are getting hammered.  The computers are taking over because any "gains" require very short-duration trades, so short that a human would not have time to react (one man's computer beats out the other man's computer- all on black, rolls red; game over; no one left to play/bet against).

Bottom line: this is greatest height on the ladder of hubris that we could ever imagine to reach; there's nothing here except a lack of oxygen...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:18 | 3215348 DR
DR's picture

Physical real estate itself isn't enough of a hot potato to be of interest(transaction costs will kill ya) but I can see the possiblity of a ponzi developing in the securitization of properties.  These could be engineered to show a yield for quite a while even if the underlying assets are deteriorating.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:12 | 3215334 Cosimo de Medici
Cosimo de Medici's picture

Such an odd fascination with TV "talent".  I swear if you stuck Janet Napolitano inside a box and had her read the news, there's a not inconsiderable percentage of men who would get a woody watching her.  Maybe "Freddie" is right after all about this TV thing.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:18 | 3214727 knukles
knukles's picture

francis, you'd rather be sitting on her....

BTW, so Yahoo is partnered with CNBS, right?  So now Laura is on Yahoo.  What ever happened to RT?  Like the Borg, "You will be assimilated"...  More like subsumed in the info business, aka co-opted.
Like the TP and Repub neo-cons...

What a wonderful world....

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:40 | 3215413 neutrinoman
neutrinoman's picture

Lauren probably realized that she'd be less fringe and taken more seriously on Yahoo than on RT, which seems to be some Putin crony outfit. Notice she's no longer showing off her legs or wearing skimpy outfits. She wants to be taken seriously, people.

And most of her potential audience is not as sophisticated as you, you manly and intelligent ZH readers, who can take skimpy outfits, great legs, and crypto-Austrian economics in stride, and be edified and aroused all at once! =)

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 02:40 | 3215678 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Regardless of the reasons LL left RT, the lady has been reduced to 5 minute snippets on a giant platform of content.  She has much more value doing 15-20 minute interviews and providing her own platform.   At Yahoo, she like finding a needle in a haystack... and then not really liking the needle.

If she REALLY wanted to taken seriously, she should have jumped across the pond to CNBC Europe, or to Canada's BNN.


Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:33 | 3218139 neutrinoman
neutrinoman's picture

Yes, I can't disagree. Maybe Lauren hopes to expand her gig at Yahoo into something bigger. I hope she doesn't sell out or get lost in a dead-end.

Someone call Marissa Mayer! I am woman, hear me roar!

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:43 | 3214623 Dear Infinity
Dear Infinity's picture

Everyone who was at one point championing the powers of the printing press going back to 1913, is now standing in awe as they watch the limits of HFT /ES melt up... yes, it appears that even the robots backed by infinite amounts of binary money can't keep this sucker above 1500.

Meanwhile, the folks at & are showing the diversion between paper price and physical premiums for -- mouse over the prices in the chart and you'll find that when ever prices move lower, premiums simply go up.


Reflexivity at its finest

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:50 | 3214641 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It amounts to the attempt [in Argentina now & various other places in the past] to enact PRICE CONTROLS...


All it ever does is create 'scarcity'...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:11 | 3214901 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

When people tell me about gold and silver falling, I always ask them if they can find any at the so-called price.

If they answer yes, then I tell them that it won't be that way much longer, as the more prices drop, the less people will make available.

"Market scarcity" is an oxymoron, as noted by Jean-Baptiste Say.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:56 | 3214660 johnnymustardseed
johnnymustardseed's picture

Problem is republicans will not admit it....from Stockman The “debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party’s embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don’t matter if they result from tax cuts.”

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:58 | 3214862 Duke Dog
Duke Dog's picture

Yeah, I wonder where Stockman was three decades ago??? Fucking Douchebag!

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:58 | 3215022 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Stockman figured out the mistake earlier than nearly all Republicans.  He saw the data and changed his mind.  Unusual for a member of the political class.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:27 | 3215115 smartstrike
smartstrike's picture

The assumption was that 'tax savings' would go into productive capital investments(Laffer Curve). But thus is not what happens. Money ends up chasing bubbles and capital appreciation while the government goes bust form debts. Its a two-edged sword.


Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:34 | 3215396 neutrinoman
neutrinoman's picture

That has nothing to do with the Laffer curve. Debt bubbles as we've had since the 1990s didn't exist in the 1980s, because interest rates were so high.

What Stockman actually discoverd in the early 80s was that the spending cuts that he found out could be implemented were not as big as they had expected. They did signficantly restrain spending, however. Deficits decline or turn to surpluses when (a) the economy is strong and tax revenues are high (as in the mid-60s or the late 90s) and (b) spending growth is restrained (as in the 1950s and early 60s, and the late 80s and late 90s). The difference between then and now is that the interest groups and Congressional power barons that determine spending are far more entrenched now. In the early 80s, the "imperial Presidency" still had real meaning, although it was already weakening. Congress was more easily cowed. And, we had real political parties then, with the discipline to implement a program. Our "parties" today are vehicles for special interests.

Unfortunately, Stockman has turned his early 80s realizations into a one-trick pony, to rail against Republicans and get on TV. It's gotten tiresome. He's not as bad as Bruce Bartlett, however, who knows a lot about budgets, but little about economics. He's always rolled out as the "intelligent Republican dissident" or some such.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:45 | 3215168 Seer
Seer's picture

The ONLY doctrine that has failed, and it's the KEY one, is the need for there to be perpetual growth (on a finite planet).

The US went over the edge back in 1970/1971 when it went off the gold standard (bankruptcy) and peaked in oil production.  Everything that has happened since then has been a smoke-and-mirrors attempt to hide this reality: we're STILL broke AND most of our trade deficit is due to now needing to import oil.  Not that it really matters, but this was all accelerated (set on max contortion) in the early 80s during the Reagan administration when the financial sector was unleashed and became purely transaction-based/motivated; the "success" (or nod to the banking lobbyists?) only picked up steam from there, with the repeal of Glass-Steagal being another "now top this!" event in hurling us toward the abyss.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:05 | 3214687 bobthehorse
bobthehorse's picture

I don't see another housing crash.

The market is still scraping along the bottom.

I see a Japanese-style economic nuclear winter.

Get out your snow boots.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:11 | 3214709 Jeremy Roenick
Jeremy Roenick's picture

Stockman had better watch his @ss.....   Such reckless spewing of the truth will get drones dispatched to your house....  Not towing the economic hopium line comes at a severe price....

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:33 | 3214780 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

so JR...what are your current thoughts on Patrick Marleau?  LOL!

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:09 | 3214894 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

JR you were my hero in chicago. Marleau is a pimp

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:16 | 3214912 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I'd consider him a member of the "controlled opposition." Says all of the right things, yet never implicates his Harvard buddies as the criminals they are (ala Chomsky).

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:48 | 3215173 Seer
Seer's picture

He's got a bit of a way to go yet, he just needs to see if Paul Craig Roberts is still alive: if anyone is a threat to TPTB it's a big insider like Roberts attacking it/them as he has.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:08 | 3215057 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

No kidding.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:36 | 3214609 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

House-flipping advertisements are all over our radio here in Pittsburgh.

I don't remember the name of the company in the ad, but here is a web site for one such company:

We're making the same mistakes again, because we're Amerikkkans. We don't like to learn, especially from history.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:55 | 3214657 1eyedman
1eyedman's picture

same in south florida again.  so many empty houses and condos still and obvious.  bought a scrtch n dent refridge last week, sales guy is hot to get his r.e. license so he can build a portfolio of 10-15 houses, using money he makes flipping the first 5 or so.  

ALL this activity is based on the good graces of the fed enabling banks to not need liquidity....probably will continue.  as another noted above once the old inventory comes in faster than a trickle, prices will stop and then the sudden appearance of many for sale signs.  units for sale will increase rapidly, but unless the fed takes away the honeypot, prices should just flounder.   

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:19 | 3214923 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Funny, no real buyers, and no real sellers. Just another zombie enterprise operating where a market once lived. As long as it keeps up appearances while enriching/busting those with access to credit, they can pretend it's all getting better.

Thank God beer-thirty has arrived!

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:39 | 3215149 Blano
Blano's picture

The "We Buy Ugly Houses" caveman is up all over Dallas now too.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:38 | 3214616 Pairadimes
Pairadimes's picture

That 'bang' he is referring to will just be a DHS training exercise. Nothing to see here, move along.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:39 | 3214617 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Pursue the same policies.  Act surprised when you get the same results.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:44 | 3214626 bonzo112358
bonzo112358's picture

Socal is building again like its 2005.  Mainly townhomes and condos.  I mean who doesn't want a 1300 sq ft condo for 400k+ and an HOA of $300/month.  They are also trying to sell them months before they are even done building them.  The difference this time (one of many) is that back in 2006 banks weren't sitting on a home waiting for the fed to prop up prices so they won't have to take a write-down.  At some point this new inventory will run into the shadown inventory.  This will not end pretty.  If you haven't already, visit doctorhousingbubble to read about the farce that is Southern California.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:54 | 3214652 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

you need to pony up 350k to get a 500sq ft studio in Brooklyn.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:00 | 3214670 kito
kito's picture

tis true fonz, but brooklyn is not a bubble. brooklyn is the natural offshoot of being priced out of manhattan. i was in williamsburg for many years. 15 years ago you wouldnt want to be walking around at night. today, its out of reach for most people......its now bushwick thats being gentrified..........

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:06 | 3214693 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I have a family member looking to buy there. The bubble question is the big debate in my family. I am in the camp that it is very specific to certain situations.. I agree with your assessment somewhat. She is in park slope. My problem is that she can only afford a studio at these levels. So in reality the only demographic she can plan to sell to is a young person. I think the next generations are in big trouble. Unless it is some kid with a rich daddy, I don't see her being able to sell very easily if need be. Also, I have been to open houses and pretty active. The real estate agents are doing a great job of making it seem like things are busy. But I don't see any action when I am there.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:19 | 3214739 kito
kito's picture

nyc is its own many foreigners jump in to invest there as soon as prices drop.....if america continues into a slow decaying decline, i still see nyc as moscow is to center with third world outlying areas in most of the country....if america hits cardiac arrest and ebt cards dry up....well then, i wouldnt want to be anywhere near nyc................

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:37 | 3214788 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Thanks lol I will let her know either she will be fine or it's zombie apocolpse.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:41 | 3214797 kito
kito's picture

flip of the coin.....although im starting to think its just going to be an ongoing inevitable slow decline into third world standards for the country.........................

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:43 | 3214794 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

If you are following the PE money you will see the buying is in the sun states.  I would not touch NYC real estate with my worst enemies prick.  They are broke, have commie leadership, want you guns, and no amount of tax will satisfy them.  Get out of union strongholds.  The beauty contest is being won by low tax, freedom loving southern states.  Blankfein marked the top of the market with his 32.5M buy in the Hamptons.  We still allow sodas of any size, encourage both gun and PM ownership, and have no state income tax.  If you are a lefty stay put, Bloomberg and Cuomo will happily tell you what you can and cannot do (for your own good of course, they really love you) not to mention you will hate freedom.

Get out while it is still legal if you can swing it.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:47 | 3214816 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

You know what muppet, other than some apparently minor disagreement...I agree with your overall assesment. You make a lot of good points.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:58 | 3214865 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

Thanks for having an open mind.  Look at history and southern europe presently, and it is should be no mystery how it will turn out for these guys.  Southern states will never go along with an Obama bailout of of broke socialist states.  CA saved themselves by the skin of their teeth (and really with pension obligations, they are still in bad shape).  History tells us austerity is coming for those folks.  Get out ASAP if you have the means to do so.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:00 | 3214869 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I do see your point there. How did CA save themselves?  Their budget numbers seem like smoke and mirrors? No?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:25 | 3214932 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

They taxed the daylights out of the productive class.  They may get a successful lefty state, but if you produce, you will pay the way of those who don't.  In time, capital will flee.

See this:

And this:

and this:

and don't forget these:

and of course this classic should not be forgotten:

California is beautiful and is full of special folks so maybe they will put up with it for awhile.  But in time....

I suspect the riots will hit Chicago first, as Illinois is run by a bunch of crooked leftists, and the people there are pretty hostile already.  It won't take much to get the riots started when they find out there is in fact, no free lunch.  Once Chicago has been set ablaze NY won't be far behind.  Good luck!



Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:29 | 3214945 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I hear you. Like you said, it's temporary. Big money is fleeing. It's gonna fall apart.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:27 | 3214938 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

If you think your governor is gonna save you from Obummer, you're in for a BIG disappointment.

If you start another war of Northern Aggression by seceding? Well, you'll just fulfill his Lincoln fantasies and he'll start yet another war.

Let me tell you something. You'll never escape enslavement by fighting centralized power, as your actions create the very mandate the centralizers need to align their minions against you.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:42 | 3215156 Blano
Blano's picture

Unfortunately there are plenty of people around Dallas (and I'm guessing Austin) who would gladly go along with their fellow dark skinned Messiah.  Hopefully they are just that in this state, a minority that can be overrun when push comes to shove.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:23 | 3215492 Seer
Seer's picture

I think that you actually LIKE saying "socialist."  It's a great trigger word.  Problem is, and in no way do I endorse "socialism," NOTHING is going to resolve what we're facing, and painting a bullseye on "socialism" is merely tilting at windmills.

To say that the South is great, well... I'll take a rural countryside in the North over Miami, Dallas, New Orleans or any city in the South.  Nothing against the South itself, it's about cities, BIG cities.  Those who have been exposed to my positions know that I state BIG = FAIL (which would include anything, "socialism" included).

Shallow thinking gets one into an early shallow grave.  Fine by me (though it tends to leave behind the inculcations for more shallow thinking), as we need a lot of compost.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:12 | 3214907 kito
kito's picture

no doubt you are right about the leadership, but the sun states (i assume you mean west coast) have no water and are way to close to the mexican border for my liking.....................if im heading west, im going to idaho, montana, oregon, etc..................

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:16 | 3214917 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I even like Wisconsin.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:33 | 3214959 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Why would you move to federal lands?

Those people out there are gonna get droned!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:25 | 3215496 Seer
Seer's picture

You mean that California isn't the only state out West? </sarc>

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:40 | 3214975 NeedtoSecede
NeedtoSecede's picture

Nailed it Pimp.  There are still parts of the country that are relatively free.  And if it wasn't so damn tragic we would be laughing our asses off at all the dumb sheep stuck in DC, Detroit, Chicago and other libtard Nirvanas.  I am a translpanted northerner now living in a state that is both Southern and "Flyover", so we stay way off the radar of the power grabbers.  We would welcome anyone to our state with open arms and all we ask that you respect us, our freedoms, and our way of life.

And this is how I see it playing out.  While the nation declines and decays (as @Kito says) overall, there will be a slow steady migration of freedom-loving productive peope to areas where they will be welcome. Over time the Detroits and Chicagos and Camdens will continue to decay.  But Charlotte (not Raliegh-too many colleges with their progressive drivel poisoning the well), Atlanta, DFW, Austin, OKC, Tulsa, Nashville will continue to thrive.  These empowered states will eventually start taking a stand against the oppression of DC and they will start taking back their sovereignty.  There will be no need for violent revolution or civil war (unless .gov wants it--and they might).  But just a quiet secession made by everyday people voting with their feet.  One person at a time, one family at a time, one business at a time.  Move to where you are free, move to where you are respected as an individual, not some protected class, and we can change the course we are on.

Now if we can just shut down the Fed, balance the budget and clean out every damn sticking politician in DC...  On second thought revolution may be the answer...

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:36 | 3215505 Seer
Seer's picture

I'm afraid that you born in the wrong century.

Don't know where in the North you were from, but apparently you don't have much exposure to the likes of Idaho or Montana.

"Now if we can just shut down the Fed, balance the budget and clean out every damn sticking politician in DC...  On second thought revolution may be the answer..."

How is the budget going to be balanced?  Even if we stopped all expenditures we cannot pay off both PRIVATE and PUBLIC debt!

And how are you going to select "replacement" politicians?

As far as revolution goes:

"La Revolucion is like a great love affair. In the beginning, she is a goddess. A holy cause. But... every love affair has a terrible enemy: time. We see her as she is. La Revolucion is not a goddess but a whore. She was never pure, never saintly, never perfect."

- Jack Palance, as 'Jesus Raza', in, 'The Professionals' (1966)

Those that fail to understand that power corrupts will NEVER be able to address the real problems...

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 08:01 | 3215817 NeedtoSecede
NeedtoSecede's picture

What is your point Seer? My main point was there would be no need for revolution, but you seemed to focus on the sarc part of my post. Please clarify your thoughts.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:37 | 3215141 smartstrike
smartstrike's picture

That's nice but I lived in 3 states with no income tax and all were and are  shit states with higher than average unemployment:

1. Texas in 1980s

2. Florida in 1990s

3. Nevada in 2008

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:43 | 3215159 Blano
Blano's picture

Your timing really sucks. 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:43 | 3215516 Seer
Seer's picture

Nevada and Florida have always been speculator states.  I suppose that Florida has a slight edge on long-term stability.  Texas is another matter, it's got the mother-of-all-resources - oil, so it has an underlying base.

But, like I was saying above, it's an issue of whether we're talking rural or urban.  A good rural place in a Northern state is likely far better than any urban place in the South.  I suppose that the discussion should be about which "half" has the better rural locations, and I think that there's too many variable to make any "right" call here, other than live where you feel comfortable (I don't have to make claims or sales pitches for where I live- I just live here, comfortably and with little disruption).

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:07 | 3215055 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

In that neighbourhood, she could always rent it out if needed (if she couldn't find a buyer). As a post below suggested, real estate markets are local and I don't see demand for rentals going down in that area in the near future (5 - 10 years).

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:50 | 3215003 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

Wake me up when Bed Sty gets gentrified.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:01 | 3214671 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Must be because Cali has such low taxes and no debt;)

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:29 | 3214943 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

One of my realtor friends in So Cal has admitted to me that this is just another bubble and it's going to blow up just like it did in 2006.  He dare not tell his buyers that though.  Unbelievably, many houses in desirable areas are back up to 2006 pricing.  He said he's determined to milk it as far/long as he possibly can.  When I call him a despicable human being, he simply laughs about it. 

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:46 | 3214630 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

I didn't know we recovered from the first bubble.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:45 | 3215519 Seer
Seer's picture

DUDE!  Wake up!  We've also been out of recession for a LONG time now (so long that it's been out since before it even started! that's what they tell me!). </sarc>

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:49 | 3214636 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Money makes the verld go round, or it might, if anyone had a damn job.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:50 | 3214638 Practical Cogitator
Practical Cogitator's picture

My mid-forties nephew rolled his California rentals into a Scotsdale portfolio, just before Blackstone began accumualting 16,000 single family rental homes.  I thought it foolish when he began, but success is tough to argue with.  Will he exit before the fast money flees?  Maybe.  But probably not.  When the housing bubble bursts once again, it will likely take out a good portion of what's left of the younger entrepreneur class.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:16 | 3215480 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture



The second-tier speculators will lose all their money. Investment real estate is a currency trap the same as China.


If prices fall 5% everyone of these true-believers will want to sell at once and the market will freeze. 5% will rapidly become 25%.


If house prices fall overall 10% or so from here the TBTFs are insolvent, Fed or no Fed.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:52 | 3214645 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

EZCredit (with lots of zero down loans, for example) always works out so well.


"Our credit-based financial markets and the economy it supports are levered, fragile and increasingly entropic," Gross said in his February newsletter.

"When does money run out of time? The countdown begins when investable assets pose too much risk for too little return; when lenders desert credit markets for other alternatives such as cash or real assets," he added.

Gross advocates investors turn to gold and other commodities

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:53 | 3214647 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

And the Philly Housing Index keeps riding higher into 62% retracement.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:57 | 3214661 monopoly
monopoly's picture

U need a cave. That is it. Sure, if you are quick and nimble and lucky you can take a 100% gain on KBH or others. I have no interest in trying my fate in housing. It was good to us, now it is over, and all we have is one cave. This will end like all the others. I chuckle when I see Bloomberg espousing how much retail money is moving into the markets. How many times do people have to see the same movie before they remember the ending. Beyond words.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:20 | 3214715 knukles
knukles's picture

People're getting thrown out of caves, trailers evicted from private property, etc., for living off the grid.....  being fined for growing shit in their gardens, illegal to sell raw milk, but Take Your Fucking Vaccine and Like It, Peasant.
And tithe to the section 8 and EBT Gods for the Free Shit Army might get restless.
And watch you bigasis's movie on how to protect yourself with scissors when the fuck who still has a gun uses it on the thems no longer has them to legally defend themselves. 
Welcome to Yobommah Ville, just down the hill from the New Versailles.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:35 | 3214783 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

always appreciate your clear thinking Knukles    +1

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:45 | 3215166 Blano
Blano's picture

Amen to that.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:57 | 3214662 blindman
blindman's picture

if only the world were a mere bubble factory....

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:51 | 3215526 Seer
Seer's picture

It's infinite!  Well, according to the perpetual growthers, the New Flat Earth Society (

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 18:59 | 3214665 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

except real estate was one of the only means of wealth preservation in Wiemer. You wont get wealthy but you might have a chance to perserve some.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:02 | 3214675 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I'd never trust it in an environment where property taxes could be changed on a dime...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:10 | 3214704 forwardho
forwardho's picture

Francis, I have disagreed with you in past but in this your advice is rock solid.

Own my house outright, until such time as I can no longer afford property taxes.

Was it ever really mine?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:25 | 3214747 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It's NEVER really yours...


The same concept is one I use to argue AGAINST folks who include "arable farmland" in their mega-portfolios... If the shit really hits the fan, you want to be as 'outta-sight' as possible... Anyone who REALLY knows what they're doing should be able to manage with a small acre or so [providing it's situated nearby to other crucial things [not to mention, ATOP a well]...

That's the 'starter course'...

Post Revolution French farmers learned this lesson the hard way...

You're NEVER truly safe... But your ODDS improve if you live in a state where defense of property rights are part of the inherent culture...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:37 | 3214786 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

LOL.  I always have a laugh at the city boys who are going to buy farmland and live off the fat of the land even though they couldn't grow a dandelion of they tried.  Reminds me of "Of Mice and Men".  George, we's a gonna us get some rabbits and live off the fat of the land.  Really now?  I'm all for gardening and such but I haven't seen a lot of soil science threads on this board.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:23 | 3214931 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Threads don't appear very much, but occasionally you'll find that topics get discussed WITHIN the threads in a spontaneous way... I got turned on to 'Hugelkultur' recently that way... It's just another thing... But the bottom line is that it requires quite a bit of time, sometimes money, & mostly FLEXIBILITY, to get away from the grid...  

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:37 | 3214967 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I was just cutting down some black locust yesterday to add to my Hugelkultur supply pile. Once I get another Fukushima Dome (high tunnel hoop-house) over it, I'll have another cesium-free garden space.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:06 | 3215037 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Yeah, that's pretty awesome...


ISOLD OUT from 'suburbia' a couple of years ago & moved to the sticks... In the process of renovating the house, I was making regular trps to the landfill... The 'organic' part of the landfill had dumping that they would turn in to various forms of compost... Occasionally ~ I'd run into someone who was dumping stuff that 'seemed' viable for something, so I would just fill up my truck with it... Later it became my Huglekultur starter kit...

My more mature beds have a soil temp 1-2 degrees warmer than the regular soil... My spinach & lettuce haven't died yet this winter [despite multiple sub-freezing days]...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:31 | 3215389 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

I like being mobile.  If you need more properties in the sticks I can help you with that.  It's hunting land, not agriculturally viable really although I did grow a successful deer plot there.  I rather like your idea of one acre or so of good soil for a garden vis-a-vis the water.  One property at a time though.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 00:59 | 3215539 Seer
Seer's picture

"In the sticks" should mean that there are sticks!  Anyone who wishes to be "off the grid" on only one acre ain't going to be doing so up north, not where there are plenty of heating days to be reckoned with.  No, here is where you need plenty of sticks to stuff into the stove.

At one point I was so specific on the property I was searching for that I was specifying the kind of trees and the amount (percentage of, based on total timber on the land).  If I'm going to spend energy cutting wood I'm not going to be using it on anything like pine.

Not all land is equal.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 01:46 | 3215607 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Seer, I would wager that I have cut far more oak firewood than most.  Pine is good for campfires and not NYC chimneys.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 07:54 | 3215795 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

question for you both:   what is pine good for (besides campfires)?   what is its value as timber?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:18 | 3215346 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

N>A, check out these discussions before committing your black locust to the hugel pile:

YMMV, but it might make sense to bury the locust at the bottom of the pile and layer some fast decomposers on top.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 01:06 | 3215548 Seer
Seer's picture

tip e., great catch!  I just kind of glossed over that mention.  Yeah, you WANT the stuff to break down IN YOUR LIFETIME!

Use locust for fence posts or such.

I've got a spot where I'm planning on redistributing some crap wood (punky stuff that's not fit for the wood stove) that was intended for Hugelkultur.  Have a good sized area, but need lots of good compost to dump on top (need to figure out best strategy for getting loads in there).  And compost is something that people ought to be careful about:

If it ain't one thing it's another!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 07:28 | 3215800 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

yeah, what to layer on top is a conundrum.   my best guess right now is to dig out some forest soil to shove in the gaps of the branches to get the fungal decomposition goin and to minimize the use of compost.    have about 5 55 gallon drums of homemade compost cooking right now in the cold, but i was able to do so much cuz i've been scavenging food waste & carbon from the city.   still not sure if it will be enough, even it's limited to the top of the pile.

i agree, bringing in compost from an external supplier is a major roll of the dice.   at the least, you should have it lab tested so you know what you're dealing with.   most people forget that when they're eating veggies that they're actually eating transmuted soil.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 10:25 | 3216072 tip e. canoe
Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:49 | 3215179 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Yes, I have been involved in horticulture for what amounts to around three decades or so.  All the way from pulling weeds when I was a kid, through a bachelor's degree in horticulture,(not that the degree was really neccessary) and into a career in the industry.  I am basically a consultant/sales rep now for a seed/fertilizer company.(non-GMO)  The phone doesn't ring much this time of the year save for my crystal ball prognostications on the water levels in the Mississippi River which I refer to the local weatherman.  This drought is ostensibly going to affect prices of certian commodities a great deal more than people realize if we have to start shipping urea by rail from the Gulf.  There is not much snow in the upper Midwest at this time.

As for Hugelkulture, I have done the raised beds.  This is not new technology.  It really all depends on the water and the soil type.  Raised beds tend warm up faster in the spring thus promoting germination of seeds which is great.  Raised beds also lose water at faster rate than flat soil which is not great.  In certain situations, something like Hugelkulture can be a great thing while in other situations it is a pointless endeavor.  It depends on your local conditions and the ease of availability of water.

Since everyone usually wants a one line quick and simple answer to every thing, I can offer this:  Check your growing medium's PH, salinity levels and organic matter content BEFORE you plant.  That and keep an eye on soil temperature and NOT air temperature to know when to plant.  This can be done by a novice gardener easily enough. 

When the NYC penthouse owner who is going to flee to his farmland fortress and grow a cornicopia is where it will all fail.  When the diseases strike, which are usually spread by insects, but can also be airborne or spread by other vectors depending on crop, they will be wiped out.  Anyone have any experience with the Colorado Potato Beetle?  Anyone have any experience with what Monsanto does with it's open pollinators such as corn if they check your crop and find the Monsanto gene present?(which it will be)  Genetics? 

The division of labor/liars has become so specialized, largely into financial fraud, ponzi schemes and political vomit that not many remember how to actually grow anything of value except a portfolio risk exposure to financial derivatives or some other such nonsense.  When I was in university, there were aproximately 20 horticulture majors but there were something like 1500 business admin majors who all wanted an MBA and I went to small university.  See that ratio?   

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 22:29 | 3215249 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Classic Story


Humans think they can control & engineer everything due to arrogance... Nature informs them otherwise... [This applies to MANY things besides horticulture]...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:18 | 3215347 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

True that.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 01:10 | 3215556 Seer
Seer's picture

Mother Nature bats last!

I pick and choose my battles with MN.  In the future when I can no longer use my tractor I figure I'll have far less "wins."

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:31 | 3214952 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

Funny but you don't have to grow a dandelion they sprout like "weeds" cause they are.  I know I will never starve in the spring because the leaves are damn nutritious.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:38 | 3214971 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Pssst. That's the joke.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:02 | 3215039 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

make damn fine tea & wine...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 23:19 | 3215352 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

The Latin name Taxasomething Offialsomething means The Official Remedy for Disorders. Dandelion is either the second or third most nutritious plant according to various sources (including, iirc, the FDA). Taste is like endive, only worse, but if I had to forage for dandelion to stay fed, well, I'd hate to have to live on the fish I can catch. (Did that make any sense?)

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 01:17 | 3215570 Seer
Seer's picture

And supposedly the roots can be roasted and then ground up to make a kind of coffee.  I haven't tried this yet, so I really can't make an endorsement of it as a coffee substitute: it's just one of those gaps that I feel I'll need to address before regular coffee becomes unaffordable!

From one of my favorite people (Gene Logsdon - he'd once stated that he was stupid for not "cultivating" dandelions, seeing as they readily grew and had many uses):

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 07:22 | 3215802 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

reaading that book now, indispensable.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:39 | 3218158 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

Coffee futures have gone from $300 a year and a half ago to $144 today. Patience, Grasshopper.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:03 | 3215040 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

Understood the joke but said farmer probably never ate a dandelion in his life.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:26 | 3214759 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

"Own my house outright, until such time as I can no longer afford property taxes.

Was it ever really mine?"

Spot on and in the same position here.  I have property on the market but there is no interest but of course it is winter.  Hell, I don't even live there! The other thing to consider is that it is much harder to relocate if need be if you own a house.  Let's be honest about "home ownership", the house owns you and not the other way around.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 01:29 | 3215583 Seer
Seer's picture

Depends on what you're "owning."

I have a "home" (not a "house") on Ag property, which also has timber for my heating needs.

It's all the price for living.  Those that like blowing with the wind are much more flexible, for sure.  And one-night stands can also be fine, though eventually those also get tiring...

Obviously you're not into marketing, otherwise you, someone with something to sell, would be proclaiming it to be exquisite! :-)

When one finds the "spot" one's views tend to change.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:12 | 3214703 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

The Nazis carried out a program of Jewish property seizures that stripped European Jews of billions of dollars worth of cash, housing, businesses and personal belongings.


Unfortunately, houses are one of the easiest targets for taxes, confiscation, etc. The Jews and other persecuted groups were able to carry their gold out along with some art work. Harder to move (or hide) a house.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:21 | 3214744 larz
larz's picture

dont have to look all the way to Nazi Germany our fearless leaders jammed imminent domain through not too long ago.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 01:34 | 3215587 Seer
Seer's picture

Are you meaning "eminent" domain?  If so, this has been around for a LONG time. (or, for party pussies, it came along during the Bush or, depending on the pussy's party, Obama administration)

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:58 | 3214864 optimator
optimator's picture

Some sent their liquid wealth out of the country, for example into U.S. Dollars.  When they brought it back they were rich beyond belief.  Those that hung onto Gold Marks did well too.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 08:18 | 3215832 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

they need you to stay here. 

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:04 | 3214679 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture

so I am a prospective first time homebuyer thinking about getting married in the next 1-2 years

what do y'all recommend?  rent?  buy a house we can easily afford on one salary?

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:10 | 3214706 King_of_simpletons
King_of_simpletons's picture

Buy a subprime McMansion and live beyond your means. Don't feel ashamed to declare bankruptcy and start over again and repeat the same thing. That's the new American way.

Shame, Fear and Guilt are three things keeping you away from prosperity, happiness and material living.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:12 | 3214714 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture



Went to my friend's new boyfriend's house for a super bowl party.  He's my age (27) and has a 3 bedroom 3 bath $300,000 McMansion (in our area that's A LOT) he lives by himself and is a virgin.  He's a nice dude, but fucking priorities, man

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:11 | 3215061 CPL
CPL's picture

Tell him to voluenteer at an animal shelter a couple times a month.  If it doesn't happen being surrounded by women with animals then I don't know...hookers and blow.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:14 | 3214719 Ookspay
Ookspay's picture

Buy! In the best area you can afford. Take advantage of 3% mortgage rates, As little down as you can get away with. Buy PM's with alll left over cash and wait...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 19:41 | 3214796 Auntie Lo
Auntie Lo's picture

Buy two, one where you need to be now and one for if the SHTF where you might surive or use as a "vacation" place if things go well.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:02 | 3214874 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

I recommend you don't get married and keep all your money.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 21:27 | 3215113 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture

I'd make him sign a prenup I have way more assets than him but fortunately I can keep them mine

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 01:42 | 3215600 Seer
Seer's picture

I married someone that also had a bit of money (and no debts).  We're a kick-ass team.  Nothing like having a "partner" that can get in the ditches with you AND is beautiful, highly intelligent and frugal!  Every day is a holiday for me, even if I'm busting my butt, aching and tired...

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:04 | 3214882 Handful of Dust
Handful of Dust's picture

mmm...don't get married. It'll be way more expensive then ANY house you'll ever buy.

Mon, 02/04/2013 - 20:32 | 3214958 fukidontknow
fukidontknow's picture

Consider becoming a Mormon or Muslim and marry more than one woman that way you'll all be able to work and be mortgage free much sooner.

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