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Argentina's Financial Collapse - Past Is Prologue

Tyler Durden's picture





 

The following rather stunning documentary provides a critical insight into what Europe (and Argentina once again) could well be progressing towards. There is a reason we highlight the 'scariest chart in Europe' as that of youth unemployment and with the central banks printing money at ever increasing paces and the next round of global competitive devaluation beginning, the debt slaves will suffer ever more. In 2001, Argentina collapsed; after many years of apathy in the country, the insurrection exploded. As TopDocumentary notes, the spontaneous revolt of 'faceless' people meant saucepans were being banged in every neighborhood.

What happened to Argentina? How was it possible that in so rich a country so many people were hungry? The country had been ransacked by a new form of aggression, committed in time of peace and in a democracy. A daily and silent violence that caused greater social disruption, more emigration and death than the terrorism of the dictatorship and the Falkland Islands war.

Ever since independence, almost 200 years ago, Argentina’s foreign debt has been a source of impoverishment and corruption and the biggest scandals. Since the first loan negotiated by Rivadavia in 1824 with the British Bank Baring Brothers, the debt was used to enrich Argentinean financiers, to control the finances and empty the country of its wealth.

This foreign debt always went hand in hand with big business, and with the complicity of nearly every government, from Miter and Quintana to Menem and De la Rua. The policy of indebtedness gave rise in Argentina to generations of technocrats and bureaucrats, who favored banks and international corporations over their own country. Educated at Harvard, Chicago, Oxford or Buenos Aires, their portraits hang in the official galleries.

 

 


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Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:19 | Link to Comment GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

USSA is next.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:41 | Link to Comment wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Exactly! Anyone who can afford it, and who does not buy gold tomorrow is a fool!

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:16 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Just in the nick of time a magazine appears: American Hard Assets, I bought it yesterday at Barnes & Noble.  This is the US premiere edition, and it features (at least this edition) GOLD!  Lots of gold pictures ("gold porn") as well.

"Review of American Hard Assets":

http://tinyurl.com/ac6atm2

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:33 | Link to Comment CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Very nice review, Do Chen. But I would not be paying a premium for "proofs" or any other collectability thing. When the paper ponzi collapses, 1 oz. of silver or any other PM will be...1 oz. Won't matter how shiny it is. 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:37 | Link to Comment markmotive
markmotive's picture

Everything is fine until it is not. And then it fucking implodes in an epic collapse.

Unexpected is what they'll say. Just like Argentina, Mexico, Russia...

I call it 'FORECAST FAIL'.

http://www.planbeconomics.com/2010/03/05/classic-forecast-fail-from-arge...

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:36 | Link to Comment strannick
strannick's picture

Exactly! Anyone who can afford it, and who does not buy gold tomorrow is a fool!

and for those who cant afford it, buy .... silver.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 02:22 | Link to Comment Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 

Moon over Parador - Full Movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-3lo_ih2E4

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 05:45 | Link to Comment Popo
Popo's picture

This is why educated Americans (and I mean historically educated Americans, which liberals apparently are not) own guns.

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 07:05 | Link to Comment goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Clive Maund has been consistently accurate to my view.

Gold Market Update By: Clive Maund -- Posted Monday, 11 February 2013 |http://news.goldseek.com/CliveMaund/1360595700.php

"The Big Story now is that there is evidence that powerful forces will be brought to bear shortly to support the ailing US Treasury market, which is close to crashing critical support, and those wielding the power will have no qualms about sacrificing either the commodity markets or the stockmarket to achieve this objective, if necessary.

We will look at the outlook for the bond market and stockmarket later, after we have examined the gold charts and indicators. On the 6-month chart for gold we can see that the time window for an upside breakout from the downtrend in force from last October is now rapidly closing, and the downtrend line and falling 50-day moving average, both close by overhead, looks set to force a breakdown soon from the lesser uptrend channel in force from December. The still bearish COT for silver does not help either, since it is unlikely that gold will go up without silver. The big question if gold does break down is whether the support at and near the high volume hammer low of early January will hold. It probably won’t, given the way things are shaping up, and if it doesn’t gold is heading down to the much more important support level at $1500.

Plan accordingly.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 09:54 | Link to Comment Jack Sheet
Jack Sheet's picture

Good link, thanks, but there are derivatives in play too which makes it maybe not quite as easy to manipulate Treasury yields as Maund states.

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1339012800.php

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 04:36 | Link to Comment All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

From the perspective of the gang banksters, Argentina's collapse was a deflationary event.

Their wealth bought MORE assets in Argentina after the collapsed it.

The gangster banksters are all about making their wealth go further.

Debt Money Tyranny

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4768883/debtmoneytyranny-6-1-pdf-60k?tr=77

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:04 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

@ Compassionate  + 1 for reality check.  But, if there is a 20% chance we go off the cliff badly, that leaves an 80% chance we will be more-or-less OK...  A small amount in proofs is OK in my book if someone is a collector and derives pleasure from collecting.

QUANTITY of bullion is first, I do agree.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 04:27 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Ahhh, Do Chen San. I like that your glass is always full.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 07:50 | Link to Comment MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

Technically, a glass is always full, unless, I suppose, one is in outer space, but even then, it would full of a vacuum.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:35 | Link to Comment wintermute
wintermute's picture

Gold is the wrong horse. Bitcoin is exponentially outperforming gold.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:31 | Link to Comment pbppbp
pbppbp's picture

I don't think you get it. Gold is a fucking Hard asset. The minute tshtf, your bitcoins will vanish. 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:45 | Link to Comment Tinky
Tinky's picture

Right. And betting on the Ravens greatly outperformed both (who needs a timeframe?).

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 06:59 | Link to Comment goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

The bookies won in that staged event.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 05:50 | Link to Comment TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

BC isn't an insurance like gold. Right now it's not a bad investment per se, but it's a different animal. As an investment, I personally prefer something which is backed by more than just computer code.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 13:23 | Link to Comment Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

"I personally prefer something which is backed by more than just computer code"

I agree, and it is a bit interesting that Bitcoin is considered so risky, but the "money" in our nation's banks are backed by computer code as well.  It's functionally exactly the same, except Bitcoin has less risk because there is no need for a currency hedge.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 06:46 | Link to Comment Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

Harro pwease erriot!  Uh internet and cell towers go down when SHTF, how u get at your bitcoins sent fool when no internet or cell tower working shavagon?   Oh I see u just pull them out of your wallet.....  yes just like I'll trade somone some SLV shares too when I wanna buy something lol

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAnGYocNP7I

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:13 | Link to Comment LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Go ahead and default already 

then you can dig your own silver out of the ground, grow your own crops, drill your own natural gas and oil, feed your own peeps

who needs money from evil foreign countries and banks

do it yourselves, assholes, and quit whining

 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:31 | Link to Comment MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

US will fund their military empire which is the basis of the petrodollar and pay for the massive level of oil imports how exactly?  

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:51 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"who needs money from evil foreign countries and banks"

The top .01% of the country who sign up the bottom 99.9% for the unpayable debt that the .01% turns into personal wealth and power.  It has nothing to do with enabling the "assholes" to extract silver, gas etc for their benefit.   

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:52 | Link to Comment Banksters
Banksters's picture

The central fucking bankers roll this way.   Incremental or precipitous destruction of currency is how they get all our shit. Math illiterate fucks, zoned out on teevee, cheese doodles and neurotoxic soda, don't get the former, but the latter is just too obvious.   Imagine telling someone, "hey asshole, I just took half of your wages and savings.  Those are fighting words.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:22 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose.

When it comes, not one man in a million ( a ratio that supplies less than the number of members of congress and hence the dilemma; liberty or rehash) will be able to convince a nation of dolts of the necessity to change course; to try something radical or perhaps rational. Not a single nation has changed their course, from Iceland to any member of the MENA uprisings to European bankrupts to South American destitutes. Not a single one of those nations with billions of people have argued or tested a philosophy of change. We are all doomed to a reality of having to deal with a philosophically devoid mass of entertained zombies.

We're fucked.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:32 | Link to Comment Midas
Midas's picture

All these things about Argentina may be true, but something that goes a long way toward explaining their problems is their allergic reactions to work.

Anyone familiar with the country want to disagree?

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:53 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Hunter-gatherers seldom work more than one or two hours a day to survive.

That's probably what their descendants are comfortable with, too.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 02:11 | Link to Comment Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

"Hunter-gatherers seldom work more than one or two hours a day to survive".

Where We Went Wrong - Daniel Quinn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpAxV6uUxsM

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 04:18 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

I've never had the pleasure of meeting an Argentinean. It would take two cases of beer to strike up a conversation of import with one as I don't speak Spanish but I find that beer always has a way of breaking down language and cultural barriers. Barriers of distance and culture aside, it strikes me that they are not as dumb or as lazy as you may think they are. 

In the first instance, they have experience of currency collapses. It seems a political pastime to destroy a person's savings, on a whim or as a strategy. Now, if I was in their shoes, I'd be asking the question: Why should I work for payment in a currency in which the value is going to be destroyed by some government fucktard, just so that they can keep their lifestyle whilst destroying mine? Why would I pretend to work if they pretend to pay me in a token that is redeemed worthless? 

Secondly, can you come over to my house? I have some tasks for you that will take but a couple of hours. I'll pay you with a Zimbabwean $200 trillion "note" if you can break it for me. Oh, what the hell! Go on, keep the change, I'm feeling generous.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 04:31 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Argentina is a classical case of a country that was dollarized. For the common Argentinian, this means that saving is done in USD. And this makes their own national currency even more fragile

old story, this is just another repetition of it

if you don't believe me just look up how most people buy a house in Argentina - hint: lots and lots of USD cash is usually involved

look it up in wiki: Dollarization - belay that, I just noticed that the article was sanitized

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 07:25 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

I know,. No arguments from me. The peso, the bolivar, the dollar, oceans of currency....... what's your point?

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 07:31 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

what I mean is that this is a classic case of how a bigger (reserve) currency trashes a lesser, weaker currency

for Argentinians, the devaluation of their reserve currency was not felt immediately. until their national one was devalued, that is, and since their local currency is much smaller and it's not their "universal" saving currency, the effect is stronger, which leads then Argentinian savers to save even more in reserve currency, which strenghtens the big one and weakens the small one

Martin Wolf of the Financial Times brought it to the point in 2010: from memory, "the world is trying to deflate the US and the US is trying to inflate the world"

my point is this: in the realm of currencies, size matters. a lot

if the South Americans had a common currency, or, better, if they would use gold & silver as saving currency, then this effect would be weaker

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 10:57 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

We should add other variables into the equation.

In 2012 Argentina's trading balance sheet was positive, 26% higher than in 2011.

http://www.tomamateyavivate.com.ar/tag/superavit-comercial/

I thing the concept "currency war" suits better to understand the matter. See, as european countries can't devaluate, almost everybody but Germany have red figures. We all have seen charts about it right here and everywhere.

Germany trading balance has increased 3,4% in 2012 (1,097 billion euros) at the expenses of the rest of eurozone's countries, specialy southern ones. Things would be different if Italy, i.e., could devaluate.

As for Argentina, we traded mostly with China, Venezuela, India, Japan.

(forgive my poor English).

 

 

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 07:36 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

btw - from the article "The following rather stunning documentary provides a critical insight into what Europe (and Argentina once again) could well be progressing towards"

is it so? europe hasn't this kind of debts in foreign currencies - historically a major difference

further, the eurozone is progressing versus balanced budgets and it still has a slight export surplus

the question is more: what could happen to the UK? but even then, it's debts are in Pounds, not in Dolares

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 11:32 | Link to Comment MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Are we even sure about the size and currency of debts any more in this world of off balance sheet debt and currency swaps?  We can talk about individuals' debts in regard to a particular currency (iceland consumer debt), but I'm not sure we can speak for the collective any longer (greece).

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 13:38 | Link to Comment Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

You bring up a not very often thought of point here; the official balances are scary looking enough, but when you introduce that much leverage onto that system, then yeah, even a default of a country that makes Greece look big by comparison (Cyprus) ends up being scary shit.  

Another way of thinking about it is what I call "dusty dominos", where you have the big countries as the dominos on the table, and the small countries as collections of dust surrounding those dominos.  Absent leverage, these small countries don't represent a threat to knock over or even wobble the dominos.  At present leverage, those collections of dust turn into big piles of dirt that, if pushed even a little bit in any one direction, could easily topple one of the dominos and start the chain reaction.  

The bad news, of course, is that it's ultimately not the dust that will get us; one of the dominos (Japan) is very close to tipping over.  The sheer destruction that will result just in forex trading alone will necessitate a G-7 coordinated action that we haven't seen since Bretton Woods, if they're lucky enough to still have their shit together.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 05:45 | Link to Comment fickle1
fickle1's picture

Over the past 30 years, I've set up businesses in various places in Asia, Australia, Japan, in the US and in the UK, and lived extended periods in each location.

People in the US, like most western countries, are not particularly productive. They work the hours, and they are clever, but most jobs produce little real output.

The top paying jobs mostly involve making decisions and moving paper and money around - a lot of "marketing" and "services" and "management" and "facilitating" but not much actual production. This, and not wage disparity, is the reason I have moved my software development business to Asia.

The reality however, is that it's "productive" hours, not total hours, that feed and house a population and supply the population with their toys. It's not necessary for the entire population to work a 40 hour week to eradicate poverty. It's also not necessary for every family to have 2 cars, and a 5,000 sq/ft house.

Some people believe the smart man is the one that lowers his expenses, and then works just a 20 or 30 hour week, while spending the rest of his time on more enjoyable activities.

Call that allergic to work if you wish...

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 14:06 | Link to Comment Midas
Midas's picture

I'm surprised nobody with actual knowledge of Argentina responded.  I have been there several times and spent several months there. 

Lunch lasts for hours, which then bleeds into siesta time after which you do some work to build up an appetite for one helluva big piece of steak that will take hours to eat.

I'm not passing judgement on whether or not that is how a person should live, but I wouldn't expect a 1st-world lifestyle without putting in the hours.

My Argentine banker friend describes it as a first world country that spends 10% of its time in the third world.  And if you are wondering, I absolutely loved every minute I spent there.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 06:51 | Link to Comment Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

Yes except that the real progress made in that place was by the italian and germans who moved there.  All the Argentines I know are not work brittle.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 08:28 | Link to Comment fattail
fattail's picture

I always  thought it  looked particularly feckless to be  banging pots and pans, and  i thought  to myself "why do they bang pots  & pans??"

Because they Don't have Bushmasters!!!

 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:23 | Link to Comment lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

And those people are UNARMED...

Now just imagine the USA with the nazi cops, nazi politicians and an armed and divided population will do...

People have seen again and again how peaceful protest doesn't do shit. Did peaceful protest end the drone strikes? Guantanamo? Put politicians, cops and banksters in jail for their crimes? End the wars? End the police state? Fuck no. So what's left when there's no peaceful way of changing things?? The only way left is violence. These tyrants only understand one thing : FORCE.

The US will be a real war zone before long.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:33 | Link to Comment flacon
flacon's picture

The baby boomers will be sitting around a camp fire drinking beer and singing: "Don't fear the reaper" watching episodes of M.A.S.H. and dreaming of Jeanie. 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:40 | Link to Comment espirit
espirit's picture

Nah, we're still stackin', loadin' rounds, and buryin' beans.

Can't make it too obvious you're cutting shooting lanes.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:49 | Link to Comment THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

A few of you are. A very few. I think the internet generation is more awake than the baby boomers.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:02 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I think the internet generation is more awake than the baby boomers.

Yeah.  I see 'em every day with their noses stuck to their iCrap -- usually playing some game or updating their Facebook status.

Really "aware".

Some of us old farts have actually been in a war.

What's going on right now is not new, just new names and faces.  Well, some old names actually!

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:47 | Link to Comment Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

Here me now, and you will all me believe later.

 

  The WWII generation is rightfully known as the greatest generation. 

 

  Their  grandchildren will be known as the worst.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. Noses in their iCrap with their heads in their ass.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:03 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

"The WWII generation is rightfully known as the greatest generation."

Actually they were as shitty as just about every other generation.

Why do you think they are better than generations that didn't have a WWII? It is a glaring sign of a failed generation.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:49 | Link to Comment WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot's picture

Word, but this intra-generational fighting is not productive. Greatest generation or not, a bunch of them fought bravely, and a bunch of people (of all ages) may once again be required to fight bravely. Let's focus on the task at hand and not let them divide us.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 14:16 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

A great generation would be one able to resist the evilness and stupidity of their leaders.

 

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 01:42 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

So... and you've done what along those lines lately?

I can't post my actions on an internet site.  Can you?

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 02:31 | Link to Comment Backspin
Backspin's picture

The greatest generation voted themselves one giant crapload of entitlements that they expect the next generation to pay for.  Doesn't seem so great to me.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 11:38 | Link to Comment MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

This is the issue...  binary in nature....  either the younger generations slave to pay for the baby boomers' entitlements, very likely never getting to see any of their own, or the baby boomers eat hand sandwiches with their lack of savings during retirement.  This alone necessitates conflict...  hopefully it can be resolved via rudimentary debate.  However, the notion that we should somehow stay united on this front is naive at best.  The incentives to each side are insurmountable barriers to the prohibition of conflict.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 10:42 | Link to Comment Oleander
Oleander's picture

After 2 hurricanes knocking out power ine my area I have realized just how govt dependent people are. noone knows how to prepare.  A woman I know ranting on FB how terrible Nation Grid is, and she was running a generator and had a woodstove. So many whining about no power and no heat. Suck it up bitches! Go to a shelter if you need to. Hotels are all booked up. 

I gave up a lot 4 yrs ago to buy a generator large enough to run the house, oil burner and water pump. I bought plenty of fuel for the woodstove before the storm. I will no longer offer a hot shower to these assholes unless the have gas for the generator. Most people are not capable of caring for themselves. They will easily be led to the slaughter.  

 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:59 | Link to Comment lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

As a cutting edge boomer I agree. I was telling a friend I was worried about various things one should be worried about. He said. "i hate hearing about all that stuff. It depresses me and I don't want to be that way."

...and this guy is into guns and has pleantty to loose.

In general there is a sense of foreboding but I can't say folks a preparing properly.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:13 | Link to Comment EINSILVERGUY
EINSILVERGUY's picture

I wouldn't bet on that.  A lot of us late boomers were raised by depression era parents. We understand and remember history.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 11:44 | Link to Comment MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Sure, but this often tends to boil down to a rural versus urban debate and is less applicable to generations as a whole...  boomers didn't get where they are financially by heeding the advice of bygone generations...  I don't see any boomers picking up pennies in the middle of the road like I see their parents and grandparents doing...  savings rates...  you name it.  Instead, boomers feasted on the golden generation's penny pinching.  Well, even those savings have been exhausted by this point.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:20 | Link to Comment Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

"I think the internet generation is more awake than the baby boomers."

It depends who you are more than anything.  A baby boomer who was a hippie is probably no more awake than your average hipster, internet or not.  It's the next generation of grazers.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:40 | Link to Comment Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Kids today are taught that guns are odd and bad. They won't be of any help.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:11 | Link to Comment flacon
flacon's picture

Good. Glad some of you are awake! :)

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:57 | Link to Comment Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Flac, even we are waking up to the destruction we let happen.

I spent the day canning veggies and meat and listening to these two awesome sisters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmr5rdaemYk

Rising Appalachia LIVE. Bring it on Home. 5/24/2012 - YouTube

Rising Appalachia - Remember What You Told Me - YouTube

Rising Appalachia LIVE. Cluck Ole Hen.6/1/2012 - YouTube

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:32 | Link to Comment Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

Singing Kumbaya with Joan Baez.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ

 

Like m y parents! Yiks!!

 


Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:41 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

A successful peaceful protest would involve wide scale unity. For example if you wanted to bring down BoA then 60% or so of their customers would have to be willing to stop all business with them and any businesses associated with them. Withdraw all their money, stop making payments on any loans, ect.. How many people would be willing to do that? If they were you would see those bankers bending over backwards to meet any demands.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:57 | Link to Comment lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Not gonna happen. Too many sheeple out there. And even if it did, the government would bail them out.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:46 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

I know, but if it did and the government bailed them out then those same people would have to stop paying their taxes. Then the fun would begin. I know... it will never happen.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:05 | Link to Comment Pascal1967
Pascal1967's picture

Rick64,

You are exceedingly inaccurate and simply wrong. First, it would take only a few percent of loans to go belly-up, to cause BoA to crash. During housing crash were 60 percent of loans going under? Hell no ... just a few percent. Second, who gives a crap if EVERYONE, 100 percent of loans, quit paying? The GOVT would give them money. Yes, OUR money that they took in taxes.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:11 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

It was an example. Please feel free to insert the percentage that it would take in your opinion. Also in answer to your other statements read my comment right above yours.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:05 | Link to Comment Pascal1967
Pascal1967's picture

Rick64,

You are exceedingly inaccurate and simply wrong. First, it would take only a few percent of loans to go belly-up, to cause BoA to crash. During housing crash were 60 percent of loans going under? Hell no ... just a few percent. Second, who gives a crap if EVERYONE, 100 percent of loans, quit paying? The GOVT would give them money. Yes, OUR money that they took in taxes.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:42 | Link to Comment Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Yep. I'm shocked at the number of people I know with money in the Taft banks. I try to tell them but they don't get it to don't want to. Their money will be gone.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:43 | Link to Comment Dead Canary
Dead Canary's picture

Viva Dorner.

(Oh hell. Just ended up on some Gov shitlist)

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:22 | Link to Comment JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Old News.  Spoiler- A lot of people took to the knife.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:27 | Link to Comment Intelligence_In...
Intelligence_Insulter's picture

This is what happens when you allow socialism into your country.  Vast pools of public debt.  It doesn't work.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:34 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

No, this is what happens when your politicians sellout to big banks.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:45 | Link to Comment Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

No, this is what happens when you and your fellow countrymen allow this to happen.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:06 | Link to Comment CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Cry me a River, Argentina. Then go "bang on pots and pans" some more. America=Gunfighter Nation. U will C. 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:42 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

 You're right it is the people, but you have a political process that is corrupted and you have to be a millionare to get elected and have billionares backing you. When elected they lie to you, and afterwards it is distorted or whitewashed by MM. Then its time to elect the next one. The public schools start their indoctrination which portrays history in a way that makes you believe in the system and believe that the politicians represent you. To overcome this you have to research and start asking yourself questions about what you believe, usually this doesn't happen until you are older by that time you are so indebted or loaded with responsibilities that you feel your hands are tied. When you start trying to educate other people they dismiss you because they are ignorant of the situation.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:10 | Link to Comment Obama4Ever
Obama4Ever's picture

Well put. Along those lines I consider Lincoln to be the most villainous president in US history. It was during the civil war that the US lost its soul, then downhill ever since. That was when the country found out, "Didn't you know? This union is no longer voluntary! The exit doors have been welded shut."

Yet the schools program the public to believe Lincoln was a great man. What a joke!

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:55 | Link to Comment BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Jesus FUCK man! Lousy fucking avatar and name. Plus, your thoughts are just as fucked up.

 

MDB...that you? If so, go fuck yourself....

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 07:58 | Link to Comment MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

You need to read some history, BB. Lincoln was, in fact, a totalitarian thug and a creep. Oh, and by the way? He despised black people. Read what he wrote on that subject. That's right ... READ what HE wrote on THAT subject.

You need to read some history, BB.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:10 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

This is what happens wherever and whenever you have government.

How could this happen without government force?

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:57 | Link to Comment Laser Shark
Laser Shark's picture

Who do you think finances all the government spending and enables all the handouts?

F*ck normal people

Jesus, Seth.  Listen, if you really wanna do this with your life you have to believe you’re necessary and you are.  People wanna live like this in their cars and big f*ckin' houses they can’t even pay for, then you’re necessary.  The only reason that they all get to continue living like kings is 'cause we got our fingers on the scales in their favor.  I take my hand off and then the whole world gets really f*ckin' fair really f*ckin' quickly and nobody actually wants that.  They say they do but they don’t. They want what we have to give them but they also wanna, you know, play innocent and pretend they have no idea where it came from.  Well, that's more hypocrisy than I’m willing to swallow, so f*ck 'em.  F*ck normal people.  You know, the funny thing is, tomorrow if all of this goes tits up they’re gonna crucify us for being too reckless but if we’re wrong, and everything gets back on track?  Well then, the same people are gonna laugh till they piss their pants cause we’re gonna all look like the biggest pussies god ever let through the door.

You think we're gonna be wrong?

Nah, they're all f*cked.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:01 | Link to Comment Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

To think socialism isn't the problem is to think that you can somehow have a large Govt. that is inherently "good", if only it's tweeked right and run by good people.  That's exactly wrong, that's why socialism has a long series of failed States.  They always go bankrupt and the people lose freedom.  All a free people can hope for is a Govt that is limited enough in it's power to not infringe on their liberties while protection basic rights.  That's the essence of the US model, it's the antithesis of socialism.  Since the creation of the Fed we've been slowly growing the Govt and have become ever more socialist.  That's where we are now, then end of some crony-capitalist socialist experiment since 1913.  The bankers benefit from financing the operation until they drain the nation of it's wealth, the end result being a worthless currency.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 03:54 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

I agree with the small government part, but you can have social programs without bankrupting your countries. These programs aren't the problem it's the other crap like numerous wars that aren't defending our borders, giving lucrative gov. contracts to corporations, numerous intelligence agencies with no budget accountability, dishonest politicians collecting pensions, ss, expense paid trips, banks and corporations being bailed out while gaming the system. All that would fall under big government, the social programs are penuts compared to the other.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 08:04 | Link to Comment MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

I gave you an up arrow because I agree with much of what you wrote; however, you get a D- on your last sentence. The social programs, too, are excessive. As is the beaurocratic leviathan. It's not an either/or. They're both horrible, corrupt, and corrupting. (You have fallen victim to the Hegelian dialectic: Are you for the spotted owl or do you want to destroy the planet and kill children?)

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 11:18 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

I can't list all the wastage vs. social programs. I don't have time. I know some programs are out of control and either need to be terminated or fixed. I stand by my last statement. I will give you an example. Fiscal year 1999 2.3 trillion unaccounted for, fiscal year 2000 1.1 trillion unacounted for. Thats just two yrs. and thats only the pentagon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMG65jYlDU8

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 11:54 | Link to Comment Abaco
Abaco's picture

Something to consider when evaluating the accuracy of your source. The DoD budget has never been $1 Trillion in any year. It is not possible that $2.3 trillion was unaccounted for in FY 1999 nor $1.1 trillion unaccounted for in FY 2000.

There is tons of waste and corruption in DoD spending and spending in every government agency, every government program. The problem is big government period. Debating whether money taken by force and mispsent on defense is more offensive than money taken by force and mispent on social programs is little different than debating whether is is worse to snort heroin or oxycontin. Shouldn't do ether. 

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 19:24 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

 My point is that it is very bad accounting when you can't account for 900B which the accounting department has reduced that too. When you have bad accounting either they are cooking the books or somebody doesn't know what their doing, and when the accounting error is this large I would venture to say some dept. is taking advantage of the situation. Just like the CIA and the rest of them do on a regular basis.

Bad analogy IMO. SS is paid by citizens and companies, the government has raided SS and it is my understanding they are buying US treasuries with it. This program is sustainable if it isn't abused. Many countries have social health care which is also sustainable. Some programs should not be in existence and some should IMO.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:04 | Link to Comment squexx
squexx's picture

Selling out to the Satanic Tribe IS the same thing!

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 05:54 | Link to Comment TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

No, this is what happens when your politicians sellout to big banks.

That IS socialism; redistribution of capital through violation of property rights...

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 10:31 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture
NO. It's a theory or system of social organization in which the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., is in the  community as a whole (the people as a whole). Humanity has never experienced such a thing. The closest to it are cooperative companies (there are some in different countries), as FASIMPAT in Argentina (Zanon's floor ceramic coating) and others. In Argentina, as the capitalistic owners of many companies during the 90ties dumped out their structures, took the money and fleed, leaving workers empty hands, they organized themselves and put factories back to work again, then claim the property rights and got it. It's legal, there are more than 200 big cooperatives in Argentina fully working and others in formation. But it's about economic enterprises run by the workers as a whole. Socialism has never been realized as a political and social organization of any state in the World. 
Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:08 | Link to Comment I am on to you
I am on to you's picture

Corporativism,i presume its called :Sorry sir,socialism aint about theft,corruption is,or the 1% are pure socialists bankers and investments likevise,deprive and run,or is it derived and stuned,no they robbed everyone blind,not socialism?

Before you diagnose yourself with depresion or low self-esteem,first make sure you are not,in fact ,merely surrounded by the, 1% arseholes!

This is how the world,deals with unjustice,what a ya know,60 years,i looked into this mirror,and the picture just got worse,by the day:

History told me,it started with the illusion,some call democracy=We are all??in it together,we the poor, low midlle snobdumbclass,to serve the uppersnobs,which was just as it was,kings and peasants,die for your King,and youll get glory???Where????Upstairs!

Smoke Camel and eat Horse, Freuds offspring,aufwidersvein mienen leuten!The show must go on,The wall is to steep to google ,stock brooke and and baileout:

So who wants the ring,Gandalf??Me,ill go for Coffee,thank you,and shiregrass!

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:13 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

Folks, it seems you don't know shit about socialism either. Socialism is a theory never, ever realized.

Back to school, kids.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:14 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Collectivism is the guilty party.

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:01 | Link to Comment squexx
squexx's picture

No, it's what happens when you allow the Satanic Tribe to run rampant in your country!

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:22 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I think that the whities, blackies, brownies, and yellowies are envious of the jewies' ability to get their hands on the levers of power.

Basically everybody but autistic types want to run the world.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:38 | Link to Comment PUD
PUD's picture

IMF, WORLD BANK, BANKS, MONEY AS DEBT, GREED, BANKS, INTEREST, USURY, BANKS, POLITICS, BANKS....NUFF SAID

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:36 | Link to Comment Kastorsky
Kastorsky's picture

there is one word for it - JEWS

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 02:16 | Link to Comment e-recep
e-recep's picture

it's jews because they have a higher average iq than than the common white guy. blacks fare worse. australian aborigins are the least intelligent. there are scientific papers confirming his. racial distinctions are so obvious yet no one is allowed to talk about them, democracy and free speech my ass.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 03:53 | Link to Comment JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

too funny! Did you learn that in school>?!???

Do you think it co-incidence that David Wechsler the creator of the test by which intelligence is measured, was a jew? And that the probablity of his using qualities of measurement dictated by his own self-interest and collective interest as a member of said community is low?

Why is verbal expression of intelligence give higher standing and significance that visio-spatial(on which they score poorly?)  It is the Ashkenazi who are measured by the reputedly higher scores, not jews in general by the way. This group of Eastern Europeans has the lowest level of outbreeding of all genetic groups. In a masterful stroke of óst-politik they have reconstructed our societies' perception of the very characteristics which result from this inbreeding as worthy ones, leading to social approbation of their serial embezzlement and false witness, instead of being denounced for this anti-social behaviour.

 

Here's a test of basic logic for you...

 Ashkenazi Jews comprise 2.2% of the USA population, but comprise 30% of faculty at elite colleges, 21% of Ivy League students, 25% of the Turing Award winners, 23% of the wealthiest Americans, and 38% of the Oscar-winning film directors...

this means

a)they are smarter than the rest of Merikans.

b)they have used their social networks to advantage in leveraging the control of media, education and financial occupations to rewrite perceptions of what constitutes acceptable values and goals in a society which only a couple of generations ago would have banished these usurpers and despoilers from the polity.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 07:20 | Link to Comment e-recep
e-recep's picture

the answer is simple :

a) AND b) together. they are intelligent AND have good international networks for nepotism.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 10:16 | Link to Comment pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

I would have to say some one who came up with that whole syatem and was able to sell it to the majority( and they took it hook line and sinker) is pretty darn intelligent.  Field expediency at it's best.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 06:16 | Link to Comment Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

Who told you?

Btw, how is Israel doing? The jewish state is a shithole who needs war to survive. Clever?

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 07:26 | Link to Comment e-recep
e-recep's picture

there are this book "the bell curve" and a book (gfactor?) and some papers by jensen.

"The IQ distributions of other racial and ethnic groups in the United States are less well-studied. The Bell Curve (1994) stated that the average IQ of African Americans was 85, Latino 89, White 103, East Asian 106, and Jews 113. Asians score relatively higher on visuospatial than on verbal subtests. The fewAmerindian populations who have been systematically tested, including Arctic Natives, tend to score worse on average than white populations but better on average than black populations."

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 08:07 | Link to Comment MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

Actually, subSaharan Africans score the lowest on IQ tests. In fact, the intelligence (as measured by IQ) in Bushmen is so low that it cannot even be measured, and, man, that's saying something because you can measure the intelligence of even my dumb cat.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 09:51 | Link to Comment JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

when supplies run low, and the only choice is the FEMACAMP rations or the hunting trail, I'll go with the dumb Bushman 10x out of ten....what they intend to serve all you pre-registrants for the ration line up will make 'what the cat dragged home' pretty damned inviting.

Intelligence...it's what's for dinner>

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:39 | Link to Comment Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

"These tyrants only understand one thing : FORCE"

No, not really.

These are weak people who hide behind Control (and convenience).
Force comes when Control finally doesn't work, as they become exposed and, well, inconvenienced.

"The only way left is violence."

If you believe that to be true, then you also misunderstand the dynamics. 

But of course, the window for a peaceful u-turn of the current trajectory is closing.

 

"What happened to Argentina?"

All of the above.

 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:40 | Link to Comment Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

1.800.452.2873    Ring, ring, ring , ring.

 

Thank you for calling the IMF hotline, our offices are open between the hours 9:00 to 4:00 Monday-Friday. Please try back again.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:46 | Link to Comment wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

When the SHTF...

methinks all you'll get is... Ring, ring, ring , ring, ring, ring , ring, ring, ring , ring...

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:46 | Link to Comment Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

There will be no Internet.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:44 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

I've been posting links to that from time to time too.

It is like the blueprint by the NWO on how to take down countries. Same with each European country, one at a time, now. And it has started in the US. These Fucks are very realisticly and probably court provable organized treasonous traitors that systematically work to overthrow democracies and nations. I say arrest the M'Fers and throw them into prison.

If you are a military leader out there. Go for it. You'll get more money and fame than you ever dreamed of--for making the right decision and protecting your country from the enemy. There are only about 6 thousand of these sick fks. We have the technology.

I can't do anything because I'm chicken and want to be left alone to believe that if I do the right things in my life the external world will also get better. Looks like I might have to do that until I've have a hood over my head and a rifle pointed to the back of it.

Actually I'm waiting for the system to reset under natural circumstances and then someone with money and common sense to launch a new system that excludes the old oligarchs. I think technology can naturally obsolesce the old and primitive by spontaneously arising in a who woulda knowed manner.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:13 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

Then you use your mind and play the game by proxy of your abilities.  

How you do that is dependant on your level of assumed risk.  You cannot gain anything if nothing is risked.  Fortune favours the bold.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:49 | Link to Comment duo
duo's picture

There will be no more peaceful demonstrations....

 

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2432866304/tt0059113

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:49 | Link to Comment americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

Kinda makes you wonder how Doug Casey's little colony is going to fare. My guess is that the rich gringos are dead center in the bulls eye.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 22:58 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Ferfal regularly rips Doug Casey for the folly of his colony in Argentina. Casey has expressed much butthurt, and protested.

I'm going with Ferfal on this one.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:54 | Link to Comment WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

There could be some distressed RE in La Salta in the near future. Won't want to be in Buenos Aires at all until the next "cycle" (10 yrs?)

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:10 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

First of all, Please forgive me for my little english.

As an Argentine citizen, let me tell you that in 2001 the kicker was an economic event, but the genesis or the origin wasn't.

The political mess was an important fact than ends in the economic crisis that al knows.

A gobernment that called itself coalicion, that means a bag with a few cats inside, begans to strip a year before the crisis.

Now, look atthe euro politians and try to extrapolate these facts to them... As Tyler said, probably the result could be the same that in Argentina.

Best

 

 

 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:13 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

Good luck Nandos and stay safe.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:49 | Link to Comment Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Sir I hope you are armed. I pray that your aim is true and your friends loyal.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:17 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

So, ummm, anyone brought up fascists fleeing to Argentina after WWII yet?

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:24 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

Nmewn, Probably Juan Domingo Peron was one... But he didn't came flying, he was born in Argentina!!! 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:30 | Link to Comment The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Mengele?

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:59 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

And Priebke...and Eichmann.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:03 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Nandos,

I know its complicated down there, keep the faith and don't let the bastards beat you down.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:34 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

Thank you!! ;)

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:27 | Link to Comment Mike in GA
Mike in GA's picture

Good point. 

Looks like the ol' long wave cycle high at work worldwide.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:37 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

Well, some. Most of them went to the US.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 11:31 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/us/14nazis.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

"Nazis Were Given ‘Safe Haven’ in U.S., Report Says"

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-11-14-us-lets-in-naz...

"Report details U.S. letting in Nazis after WWII"

As I said, you must do some research.

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:52 | Link to Comment Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

Germans? Kirschner is a native Aztec/Argentinian name, isn't it?

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:58 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

Chilean!!! 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 10:10 | Link to Comment flapdoodle
flapdoodle's picture

Argentina should sell Patagonia back to Chile: they would know how to run it with a minimum of corruption...

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:09 | Link to Comment upWising
upWising's picture

MUST READ :: The Fourth Reich by Jim Marrs

Borman and flight of Nazi Capital to South America, and a whole lot more.....a great read

[anything by Jim Marrs is worth reading .....  check your GOOD public library on-line catalog]

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:21 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

Thanks CPL!!! Trying to do my best.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:30 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

http://ferfal.blogspot.ca/

 

Take a peek, he's been working on stuff for a while preparing in Argentina.  Not communist or capitalist.  He just likes being prepared for his family because he doesn't believe any of the bozo's in charge.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:27 | Link to Comment andrewp111
andrewp111's picture

I wonder. Has Kirschner been diverting her country's revenue into a nuclear weapons program so she can finally take the Falklands back from the UK?

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:39 | Link to Comment Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Interesting question. Check on parliament polices to vote on carbon credit regulations. This might help..


United Kingdom: The Future Of Carbon Credits Trading - Financial Services Regulatory Issues -20 December 2012 http://www.mondaq.com/x/212430/Commodities+Derivatives+Stock+Exchanges/The+Future+Of+Carbon+Credits+Trading+Financial+Services+Regulatory+Issues

 

Can you begin to see the picture? 

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:30 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

andrewp111 

Everything is possible, cause she is out off her bloody mind... If she still has a mind.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:51 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

Nandos - anyone using Bitcoin for business in Argentina? How many people use gold, silver, bullets, Tide for currenty or trade?

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:50 | Link to Comment Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

This shit is spreading. Venezuela has just devalued the Bolivar by 32%

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:51 | Link to Comment W74
W74's picture

Argentina has always been a mixed bag....then they put a woman in charge.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 23:54 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

Most of you don't know shit about Argentina. Don't know shit about what has happened and is going on in your own country. Know almost nothing about the huge damage your governments have made to Latin America among most of the rest of the World. And if you know, you don't care. There's nothing to laugh at neither to be sarchastic about, up there in the USA neither in Europe. People is dying. Here in Argentina, thanks to your governments, men, women, children were tortured and assassinated. Babies were taken from their tortured mothers and given away; we're finding identities right now, my friends.

The same oligarchs managed to throw down the Twin Towers killing thousand and announcing the upcoming uncountable deaths, in progress. And they're stealing your liberty as well as they keep trying to take ours.

Let's laugh at it together! Cheers!

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:23 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I will grant you that our government, by virtue of us doing nothing,is slowly stripping liberty and resources from the world, but I won't let you and your officials off the hook. You and yours are wholly complicit by your dance with the devil and the inaction on your part. We are all in this together and we can either recognize that or we can be divided as people and nations as TNWO has their way.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:37 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

"Inaction on your part"?  Don't agree. I was a child. And now, we're taking to justice our dictators and assasins. Even civilians from USA and european corporations that made their sindicated employees be "desappeared" by the dictators so they could run business without, say, interferences. They're being questioned also.

I'm no government either. 

We are all in this together and we can either recognize that or we can be divided as people and nations as TNWO has their way.

Fully agree.


Mon, 02/11/2013 - 00:50 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

TNTARG,

Please, and i will say it agian, PLEASE, don't forget the other side of the problem: Guerrilla, Montoneros, Firmenich, Vaca Narvaja, Abal Medina... Have you ever hear about them?

They kill people too!!! They left cazabobos, (hidden bombs) in the streets, in schools, and right know it seams that they were inocent people. Killing to staying alive, or for the couse or in the name of the revolution?

Once again, PLEASE don't forget the other side!!!

I know, government violence is the worst kind of violence... But people killing or kindnaping others to get money for their cause, is not the kind of violence that I ever support. They kill inocent people too!!! 

And if you like, we could keep on going in spanish when ever you want.

Best 

 

 

 

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 01:23 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

Please my friend. We call your arguments "teoría de los dos demonios" but there was no such a thing as two demons.

See, I would accept an open war, considering your theory. That would be acceptable. But what happened here, what the government with the complicity of governments of USA and Europe did, that is another matter.

- They kidnapped people;

- They sent more than 30.000 people to dungeons to be tortured, raped, their properties stealed, papers made signed under torture (that's the way the built the press oligopoly we have down here);

- pregnant women were tortured, assassinated and their babies were taken away from them. Kids went mostly to the murderers or their families;

- People was thrown to the ocean alive from chopsters;

- Kids from highschool were imprisoned and tortured (Vg "La noche de los lápices";

- Mothers who claim for their kids were taken, tortured, murdered...

And you come again with that "two demons" theory?

These, my friend, are not opinions. These are facts.

See also "Plan Cóndor".

See CIA contributions to our dictatorships.

See at what extent USA governments were directly linked to our dictators. But that's not new, isn't it?

I rest my case.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 03:16 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

Sorry, but a few thing of your case are wrong.

They dont kidnnapped people like you or me, they kidnnapped guerrilleros. People that have killed inocents. 

I tell you again, goverment violence is the worst...I am not supporting the militares!!! 

I wasn't talking about the toria de los dos demonios. I don't know why you came with that. Probably to give suport to your story. The facts as you mentioned are, that inocent people was killed by guerrilleros and by militares...in that order.  

This government is transforming in just like what they fought. In many cases, even worst.  

Finally, I just thought that I could express my opinions, but it seems like you are the owner of the trouth.

 

Best

 

 

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 05:05 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

Hey, mothers looking for their sons were guerrilleras?

The owners of Papel Prensa's journal paper factory were guerrilleros?

Highschool kids were guerrilleros?

Two blocks from me lives a woman, she was 17 at the time. She was a member of her school's students commission. Kidnapped. Raped. Tortured.

But let's take your arguments into account. Then to fight terrorists you are allowed to kidnap, rape, steal, torture. Just kill them wouln't be enough. Right. Viva Guantanamo prison and Abu Ghraib! Let's torture, rape, still, kidnap for freedom (IT WAS A DE FACTO GOVERNMENT), yeah! Nothing like a nice girl making their dogs bit your guts!

Sorry pal. Doesn't fit into my human, moral and political standards.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 05:53 | Link to Comment Nandos
Nandos's picture

Sure,  Bonafini, Abal Medina, Vaca Narvaja, Firmenich, Castro, Verbinski, all were good guys!!!

Verbinsli put bombs that kill inocents men a women... What about theirr suns and daogthers? 

Once again, You are mixing and missing some of the facts. Please read this: I don't justify none of both side.

I only asked you that please don't forget the other part of the problem. Or it wasn't other part?

About your human, moral and political standards or even mine, they are out discussion. Once again, I don't know why you came with things that we aren't talking about.

Finally, as you put that woman as example, let me put my mother. Her names were found on a terrorist contact book. The militares followed her, they threatened to kill her, but they didn't, they didn't kidnapped her either... Why? Do you have that answer too?

She is alive and kicking.

Best 

 

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 09:57 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

I think my answer to your comment is still above.

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 10:19 | Link to Comment flapdoodle
flapdoodle's picture

It seems to me the problem with dwelling in the dictatorial past in Latin America is that you loose sight of the real problem - in the case of Argentina, the Federal system is a disaster. Buenos Aires sucks up all the money from the Provinces, and encourages *extreme* corruption to the Provincial politicians who play the game...

Argentina should declare war on Chile and try to lose - then maybe the Federal system could be re-written on a sounder footing...

Mon, 02/11/2013 - 11:11 | Link to Comment TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

As I stated before, your knowledge about Argentina is poor. See, huge corporative propaganda turns very difficult to understand how things really are.

You have to work hard, do some research. As for instance:

http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/us-interventions-in-latin-american-02...

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0127-03.htm

Both very interesting readings. And of course, there's a lot more arount. Go for it.

You my also try CIA rol in Argentina's dictatorship. And Operation Condor.

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