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Guest Post: Meet Stingray Surveillance: The "Unconstitutional, All-You-Can-Eat Data Buffet"

Tyler Durden's picture


Via Michael Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

It’s getting impossible to keep track of all the new spy tools being rolled out by the police state in the name of “fighting terrorism”, aka spying on innocent American citizens unconstitutionally.  I thought that I had my hands full the other day with ARGUS: The World’s Highest Resolution Video Surveillance Platform, but this “Stingray” system is already being deployed illegally in cities throughout the United States.  As the EFF states: “The Stingray is the digital equivalent of the pre-revolutionary British soldier.”  From the EFF:

The device, which acts as a fake cell phone tower, essentially allows the government to electronically search large areas for a particular cell phone’s signal—sucking down data on potentially thousands of innocent people along the way. At the same time, law enforcement has attempted use them while avoiding many of the traditional limitations set forth in the Constitution, like individualized warrants. This is why we called the tool “an unconstitutional, all-you-can-eat data buffet.”


Recently, LA Weekly reported the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) got a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) grant in 2006 to buy a stingray. The original grant request said it would be used for “regional terrorism investigations.” Instead LAPD has been using it for just about any investigation imaginable.


Of course, we’ve seen this pattern over and over and over. The government uses “terrorism” as a catalyst to gain some powerful new surveillance tool or ability, and then turns around and uses it on ordinary citizens, severely infringing on their civil liberties in the process.


Stingrays are particularly odious given they give police dangerous “general warrant” powers, which the founding fathers specifically drafted the Fourth Amendment to prevent. In pre-revolutionary America, British soldiers used “general warrants” as authority to go house-to-house in a particular neighborhood, looking for whatever they please, without specifying an individual or place to be searched.

The Stingray is the digital equivalent of the pre-revolutionary British soldier.


On March 28th, the judge overseeing the Rigmaiden case, which we wrote about previously, will hold a hearing on whether evidence obtained using a stringray should be suppressed.  It will be one of the first times a judge will rules on the constitutionality of these devices in federal court.

It will be interesting to see what happens in late March.  I will be watching.

Full article here.


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Wed, 02/13/2013 - 20:54 | 3241621 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

I saw all this stuff coming a long time ago.

I got rid of my cell phone a few years ago.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:02 | 3241641 seek
seek's picture

I haven't gone that far, but I severely limit my cell use, don't always take it with me and have a second cell with battery removed for emergencies on the road.

If you can't get rid of it, you can at least make the data from it full of trash.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:30 | 3241657 The Count
The Count's picture

Mmmm, did you also remove the hidden tiny battery that the fuzz can still use to eavesdrop on you even though the phone seems dead?

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:35 | 3241722 fourchan
fourchan's picture

nothing a rifle bullet couldnt rectify.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:22 | 3241846 CPL
CPL's picture

If only they read the documents written about the system instead of enjoying the colourful slide shows provided.  It's okay though.  It's iron ring engineer certified.  Running with RSS as a transport layer, well, a 'secure' layer.


They'll see why it was an insane idea soon enough.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:57 | 3242074 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

We are own you, now!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:19 | 3242134 CPL
CPL's picture

If they want the toys to work.  TPTB better bring more money than they planned for.  It won't be paper we are looking for either.  Opportunity knocks to provide a win-win for the opportunist that recognizes where to bill a client bad with math and money.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 07:44 | 3242549 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

All of your base....base...base...are belong to

All of your base! Are belong to us!

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:44 | 3241744 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Only people with something to hide are opposed to the truth being discovered. (snicker)

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:55 | 3242072 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Putting your phone in a good Faraday cage (i.e. tinfoil-paper-tinfoil) will thwart this possibility.  It will also drain batteries much quicker because the phone will increase its signal strength looking for a tower.  So keep the main battery in the emergency phone separate, even if the phone is off, but don't worry about any secret batteries.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:28 | 3242156 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

does that TPT combo work for passports as well?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:52 | 3242202 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Even better.  RFID signals are so weak that a single layer of tinfoil will shield a passport.  (May work on a cellphone too... not sure)

Tip:  Faraday cages can lose their effectiveness if the shielding material does not completely enclose the object.  I.e. a tinfoil book jacket for your passport might not work because it would have gaps where the passport opens.  Also, for electronic devices shielded against EMP, the plug needs to be completely inside the Faraday cage or you lose protection.  This pretty much means you can't keep your electronic preps plugged in.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 03:02 | 3242379 Joe A
Joe A's picture

put your passport in the microwave oven for a couple of seconds

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 08:38 | 3242615 General Decline
General Decline's picture

...and your license plate renewal sticker.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 09:38 | 3242726 kill switch
kill switch's picture

Airplane mode shuts down the WIFI ,It will not look fro a new tower cause it can't....muhahaha

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:13 | 3243827 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture





The Count  randomly without thinking says:


" Mmmm, did you also remove the hidden tiny battery that the fuzz can still use to eavesdrop on you even though the phone seems dead? "

I give you above a man who believes in MAGIC. .



There is enough energy in that cell to backup RAM in your phone, IF and ONLY IF indeed it is present nowadays ...


Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:17 | 3242493 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

Use only cellular handset not intended for the Police State, USSA, thus not FCC certified yet will still operate with the freq there, with removable batt.  If one does remove the batt and the simcard, i don't think the hidden tiny batt, if any, will matter then.

This sounds like an adaptation of "Full Spectrum Dominance" that's relevant for individuals: 'Full Spectrum Control'.

Given long enough time, i believe one day the Police State USSA will deploy the portable Mind Scanner.

Isn't it great to be able to find out the would-be terruriz nearby you, on the streets?


The Obummer will long be remembered as the Father of Surveillance!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:22 | 3243854 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture




matrix2012 compunding the magical thinking meme pens:

" Use only cellular handset not intended for the Police State, USSA, thus not FCC certified yet will still operate with the freq there, with removable batt.  If one does remove the  ... "


MORE magical thinking ... JUST WHERE do you come up with a non-FCC certified handset? Stratight out of development lab somewhere?





Fri, 02/15/2013 - 04:52 | 3245660 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

Just seek those phones (models) *NOT* intended for sale in USSA market. Such models won't bother the hassles to apply FCC compliance. For sure the many countries beyond the NATO jurisdiction or Anglosphere will care less such FCC compliance.

There's NO magical here, some ignorant sheeples just limit their views to too much USSA-centric!!  Think outside the box.

Nevertheless removing both the batt and simcard as necessary should solve the the Big Brother's eavesdropping problem wrt CELLULAR PHONES!!! But if you use iFruit then ur out of luck for the batt is non-detachable, as well as many droid phones incl gugel nexus :-)  However, without any simcard attached, what to track then??? the gadget's IMEI??? :-)  what an abominable police state

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:05 | 3241647 Acidtest Dummy
Acidtest Dummy's picture

I have a tracking device that also can make phone calls.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:36 | 3241724 tickhound
tickhound's picture

My Roadside Assistance just the other day .. "Would you like us to use your cellphone to pinpoint your location?"

It's the "juicy steak" side to the matrix.


Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:58 | 3242230 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Oh, and while we have you on the line, would you like a copy of the photos your phone accidentally took while you were banging your secretary in the back seat of your Mercedes?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:04 | 3242245 Edmon Plume
Edmon Plume's picture

I didn't know facebook added that feature.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:15 | 3241662 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

Not a smart move, that only attracts more scrutiny:


File: GrinandBearit

Real Name: [press F1 to display]

List of odd behaviors:

Do not own cellphone

Visits Zerohedge


Best way to hide is to act like the average sheep; not too fat, not too skinny, not too much wool and not too little.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:23 | 3242281 Edmon Plume
Edmon Plume's picture

Precisely.  For all the renegade "i'm too smart for you" talk in his manifesto, "dorner, party of five" fled to big bear, .4% black.  Way to not stand out.  Woolly bully.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 10:54 | 3242945 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

Eric Rudolph laffed at Dorner.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:47 | 3241750 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

That Will Smith movie with Gene Hackman n stuff man.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:32 | 3241880 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Cannot help but notice the resemblance between Edward Lyle, and Murray Rothbard.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:04 | 3242090 floydian slip
floydian slip's picture

remind you of anyone ? (heshes name is bernaise (bernanke)


btw, nice av ;)

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:58 | 3241786 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

I will only use a cheap throw away cell phone paid for with cash and minutes paid for with cash. I don't use cash rewards card account info to get a discount either.

Everybody is trolling for information. Give them as little opportunity as possible.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:16 | 3241835 SilverDoctors
SilverDoctors's picture

Stingray surveillance.  Just in time to help the DHS regulate the internet thanks to Obama's new cybersecurity CISPA executive order!

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:11 | 3241979 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

I did also, look at all the billions spent to "fight terrorism" How does this help in that?  Unless you believe that all americans are terrorists or potential terrorists. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 02:35 | 3242363 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

Only the taxapaying ones.


Wed, 02/13/2013 - 20:55 | 3241623 CH1
CH1's picture

Note to anyone still believing the constitution will save them: FORGET IT.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:08 | 3241652 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

The Bill of Rights are not rights granted by the government.

These rights are natural rights of the people enumerated -- among others not enumerated -- which are being overrun by government overreach.


Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:14 | 3241660 CH1
CH1's picture

You are entirely correct, but that was then, tyranny and mindlessness are now.

Freedom exists outside of the system ONLY.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:16 | 3241664 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

See you on the outside...  ;)

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:19 | 3241669 Joe Davola
Joe Davola's picture

Oh Grasshopper...

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:29 | 3241659 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

".to anyone still believing the constitution will save them.."

We are now in the time where it will have to be the other way around, CH1...

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 20:57 | 3241625 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I wonder if the Stingray can also find a fully intact driver's license in a house that burned to the ground and left only bones of the supposed owner of said license.   Speaking of which, they could have avoided a space shuttle disaster a few years had they used driver's licenses on the bottom to shield the heat instead of those silly tiles.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 20:58 | 3241631 CH1
CH1's picture

Doesn't matter - they'll still say it on TV, and Joe Mundane will eat it up.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:23 | 3241677 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Maybe the truth doesn't matter to you, but it matters to me.........nothing but lies on the MSM



Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:19 | 3241668 Umh
Umh's picture

I don't like giving you an up arrow , but I just did.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:24 | 3241682 FiatFapper
Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:38 | 3241900 luckylogger
luckylogger's picture

Hmmm... that is a little more than a cabin............. looks like a mansion to me. but it was definitely burnt big time............... they did not want any evidence left!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does everybody that makes fun of the state become a terrorist or are we just old fashioned communists?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 03:32 | 3242404 BidnessMan
BidnessMan's picture

I recall all the evidence in Waco went up in flames too, and 20 children under the age of 16 were murdered.  But that was different than New Town, because it was the ATF and FBI with the assault weapons. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 03:41 | 3242406 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

A horrendous crime committed by thug goon squad jackbooted cowards (ATF and FBI).

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:31 | 3243869 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

Everybody fogets the Title III intercept devices that caught Vernon Wayne Howell's voice calling for his henchmen to 'light the fires' that started their final demise ... 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 10:13 | 3242707 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Article on one webiste questioning of Dormers holdout cabin fire was set by, PoPo's, Hell No, just listen.They would never do dat!.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:38 | 3241901 luckylogger
luckylogger's picture

Hmmm... that is a little more than a cabin............. looks like a mansion to me. but it was definitely burnt big time............... they did not want any evidence left!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does everybody that makes fun of the state become a terrorist or are we just old fashioned communists?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:40 | 3242303 Edmon Plume
Edmon Plume's picture

Your avatar has a walleye.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:52 | 3242066 DriveByLurker
DriveByLurker's picture

I don't think he's gonna get his security and cleaning deposits back.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 05:37 | 3242478 Seer
Seer's picture

Of course, it was for "our" protection!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 07:42 | 3242546 MillionDollarBoner_
MillionDollarBoner_'s picture

I'm a fire scene investigator with many years experiance and I can tell from the photo that this fire started in the NSA

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:36 | 3241723 AGuy
AGuy's picture

I recall reading that his license was found days ago (I think near the LAX Airport)  not at the Cabin. Media likes to fumble words, faces, names (ie. Adam Lanza brother was the shooter). If you want wrong facts just listen to Media. The don't need to be right, They just need to report something to get your attention.


Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:04 | 3242243 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

Ok....I first heard the cabin owners were tied up, one escaped and notified police.  Did anyone else also hear this? I am NOT big on conspiricies, but I thought this rather odd.  I'm starting to not believe my own lieing eyes anymore!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 02:02 | 3242338 dunce
dunce's picture

I read that the hostages were maids so it was not a rustic cabin in the woods. I am not sure they were hostages anyway because his beef was with the police and he had no interest in harming or holding them. He was crazy but not stupid. He knew there was no escape but he wanted the battle.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:49 | 3241754 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Shoulda been some charred meat too.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:14 | 3241829 monad
monad's picture

Never fear, AG Holder will get to the bottom of this.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 20:57 | 3241627 Rentier
Rentier's picture

They will next be able to monitor can and string conversations so your ditching the cell phones only bought you a little bit of time.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 20:58 | 3241629 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Im sure that the jewish controlled MSM will be reporting on this promply, otherwise how could it be true?

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 20:59 | 3241634 CH1
CH1's picture

Oooh, look - someone wants us to talk about something else.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:06 | 3242248 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

I am SOOOO tired of 'Jews', 'Hitler', Nazis, all I want to do is puke.  Will it never end? (Rhetoric...of course it won't)

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:40 | 3241733 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years......It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supernational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."

? David Rockefeller

The Evidence of Treason [Rockefeller Conspiracy] (3:16)

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 05:50 | 3242481 Seer
Seer's picture

"The supernational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."

Yeah, thank God!

Imagine what things used to be like (pre Magna Carta days [from]):

Trial by ordeal was a superstitious procedure administered by clerics who subjected accused persons to physical torment in hopes of uncovering divine signs of guilt or innocence. The most common forms of ordeal involved boiling or freezing waters and hot irons. In the ordeal of freezing water, accused persons were thrown into a pool to see if they would sink or float. If they sank, the cleric believed they were innocent, because the water would presumably reject someone with an impure soul. Of course, persons who sank to the bottom and drowned during this ordeal were both exonerated of their alleged misbehavior, and dead.

Now days it's so much more "civilized!"

Investigation Confirms Rampant Torture in Afghan Prisons

Extrajudicial Killings. Assassinating Awlaki: Obama Can Kill Anyone He Wants To

ACLU sues US over extrajudicial killings of Americans

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:00 | 3241637 buzzsaw99
Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:00 | 3241638 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

Arthur Miller (law prof at Harvard) used to say about these issues: "Why let a little matter like the Constituion get in the way."


[He was being sarc, of course, since he was one of the last few defenders of the Constituional Rights in legal academia from what my lawyer neighbor tells me]

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:04 | 3241644 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

The stop-us-if-you-can approach is tearing this country apart. It will take years for this to play out in Federal Courts. Maybe change the system to make these devices be "approved" and fully constitutional by the Supreme Court before they can be used at all.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:26 | 3241686 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Politicians in black dresses won't save SHIT except their own power, position and pension.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:08 | 3242099 WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot's picture

Years in Federal Court . . . . or . . . . 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 05:55 | 3242482 Seer
Seer's picture

Change the system?

Do people demand a really just system? Well, we'll arrange it so that they'll be satisfied with one that's a little less unjust ... They want a revolution, and we'll give them reforms -- lots of reforms; we'll drown them in reforms. Or rather, we'll drown them in promises of reforms, because we'll never give them real ones either!!

- DARIO FO, Accidental Death of an Anarchist

"They" can kill you w/o trial (and from th comfort of a chair- drone pilots) and you're going to ask them (politely) to not gather "intelligence" (spy) on you?  Ha Ha Ha Ha...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 13:12 | 3243431 nofluer
nofluer's picture

A drone piloted by someone half a world away. A computer expert defending against cyber attack and counterattacking. Many of today’s warriors are nowhere near a battlefield, and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta says that’s what the new Distinguished Warfare Medal will recognize.


Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:04 | 3241646 espirit
espirit's picture

All your 0's and 1's belong to us.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:26 | 3241687 jimijon
jimijon's picture

Almost... it is the order of those 0's and 1's that are suspect. String them together into a video... and boom, the stinger of stingray will want to put you away for 50 years.

Remember, only the annointed ones can have computers that store the 0's and 1's in special order.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 05:57 | 3242483 Seer
Seer's picture

And only the anointed ones can violate the laws on how those 0's and 1's are ordered! because, well.. because it's for our "protection!"

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:08 | 3241649 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

Lawyer accidently sues himself.

I heard the LAPD shot two elderly asian females as Dorner look alikes.

This new stingray will give more suspects, power, and control to our big brother. Our leaders seem to be getting more power and less wisdom.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:08 | 3241650 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Its about time for some vandalism.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:14 | 3241656 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Best comment I've heard all day.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:21 | 3241672 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Red light cameras, jus sayin'.......

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:30 | 3241696 pops
pops's picture

Double aught or do you think bird shot would do the trick?

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:42 | 3241736 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

For some reason I am drawn to the irony of 7.62x54R..

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:47 | 3241924 a growing concern
a growing concern's picture

Ironic? Yes.  Inconspicuous?  No.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:03 | 3241963 salvadordaly
salvadordaly's picture

All could be taken out rather easily with a sturdy (Framed mounted) bumper and a pick up truck with a chain. Rider in back wraps chain around pole, and a good yank. All could be done in seconds. The good thing is, your to close for the camera to have evidence (not in camera's frame). Chain will free it's self to be retrieved down the road, and thrown in the in the back of the truck. All done in less than 20 seconds. Pole down, camera smashed, and your still driving from the scene. Plus more to replace than the camera alone! Smash, Smash, SMMMAAASH!!! Not that I've thought about it, or anything like that?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:11 | 3242108 WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot's picture

.22 should do the trick. Suppressed is even better. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:43 | 3242198 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Paint pellet, lens... done.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:10 | 3242261 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

You'd be SURPRISED at what birdshot will accomplish!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:57 | 3242226 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Hornet spray should work well on the red light cameras.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:22 | 3241674 Umh
Umh's picture

If at all possible just leave the damn thing at home. I leave the phone at home just because I had to carry one with me for a couple of decades. I couldn't even go on vacation without the little electronic bastard.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:22 | 3241675 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

Watch "The Anderson Tapes".

The only difference now is they don't use tape and they don't erase it.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:23 | 3241678 zebra
zebra's picture

attention all LAPD officer wives... DO NOT use cell phone if you are having an affair.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:28 | 3241688 pragmatic hobo
pragmatic hobo's picture

" ... aka spying on innocent American citizens unconstitutionally. "

let's cut the BS ... the constitution was written up by founding fathers, aka the rich land owners, to protect themselves from the slaves and the foreigners. The so called innocent Americans, long lobotomised middle class wage slaves, are not the ones to be protected by the constitution. In fact the constitution works quite well to protect the top 0.001% against the tyranny of the unwashed masses.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:51 | 3241764 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

How did that work out for Conrad Black and Martha Stewart?

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:46 | 3241921 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

They must have missed a few payments. Eventually they will eat their own.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 13:21 | 3243469 nofluer
nofluer's picture

Eventually they will eat their own.

Unless they eat fast, I don't think they'll have a chance to. The vibes running around the world and the numbers of people who are feeling them indicate that these are probably the "last days" as referred to in the Christian Bible. That means the bad guys (sexually generic term) have I'd say between 7 to 15 years from the present to enjoy their power before it comes to a radical and permanent (as in eons long) end. And they will NOT like their new mailing address!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 02:41 | 3242368 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

"wage slaves" were not the middle class. The landowners and the independent businssmen were.


Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:50 | 3241759 itstippy
itstippy's picture

Perhaps they'll use this so-called "Sting Ray" device to nail that nefarious fugitive Jon Corzine!

Imagine - one minute he's having a clandestine phone conversation with a JP Morgan louse, plotting to rerehypothicate some hapless Nebraska sheep farmer's life savings, and WHAM!

LAPD's finest swoops in and busts his diabolical ass!  All thanks to the new "Sting Ray" surveillance system.  Too cool! 

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:54 | 3241774 ziggy59
ziggy59's picture

The iRay app...coming to a fascist place near you

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:55 | 3241942 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

A smart government (yes, I know) would convince us to pay for it. Never know when you might need to CYA 

Unlimited storage of your conversations conveniently recorded to "The Cloud" in real-time, for just $9.99 per month. But wait...there's more!! Act now, and we wil throw in unlimited email archiving for not one, but two email accounts.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:59 | 3241787 jumbo maverick
jumbo maverick's picture

I don't talk hardly ever on the phone so when I use it I text. I often text words like anthrax, C4, riot, covert, THE FED, bomb, operator, snipe, night vision, and my personal favorite MOLOTOV,

Kind of makes me happy knowing some homeland security fusion center gets all bonnered up then upon further investigation they see I'm just trying to figure out what the family is having for dinner when I get home.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 21:59 | 3241791 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Good thing it's a 4th Amendment-Free Zone (the whole country, that is).

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:02 | 3241799 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Hey, government assholes! Yeah you guys....ya listening to me? Want a piece of me? Huh, well bring it. I ain't afraid of you.Im ready. I've got scissors!


Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:18 | 3241844 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Damnit!  Now they are going to ban scissors...

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:05 | 3241967 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

The Emperor Wears No Clothes

In fact, while British common law is the basis for our modern legal system, forfeiture law relies on the medieval concept of the cursed object “Deodand” (from the latin “deo” god, and “dand” give; meaning that any object causing human death was forfeited to the crown). This is the basis for American laws of seizure and confiscation of property, rather than penalties only against persons. Why? Simple. People have guaranteed legal rights; property does not!

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:24 | 3242006 Bohm Squad
Bohm Squad's picture

Or This...

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:13 | 3241827 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

Generations of brainwashing the masses to a dumbed down state of serfdom was and is successfully accomplished.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:19 | 3241847 mendolover
mendolover's picture

What used to be quite alarming relative to privacy is now just a little offensive and annoying compared with all the 'space age' stuff we are seeing now.  I read an article this AM about Tesla's battery issues in the New York Post.  Came straight to this site from and found a banner ad on the left for electric cars.  Will definitely have a track phone in the bug out bag.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:07 | 3242486 Seer
Seer's picture

Aldus Huxley was warning us about all this tech stuff.  Most flat out fail to understand that tech is our chains (most believe that it's for solving "our" problems- yeah, I suppose that one has to understand the context, just who "our" is).

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:35 | 3241887 CPL
CPL's picture

See this news article.  This happens everywhere now.  Scavengers have picked apart the infrastructure enough now that Orwell didn't have the foresight to see what 7.2 billion people do to monitoring infrastructure in a hyper inflationary environment.  They pick it apart and sell it for scrap.

Every last piece.  

The situation is right now that the big brother monitoring goes down faster than it can be put up.  Takes weeks of planning to get all that shit up on a single city block.  Takes a scavenger about half an hour to steal it all to make their rent and groceries for the week.

The cities can't do anything about it or the streets would fill with garbage if they tackled the problem with arrests as the public sector only accounts for less than 11% of total waste reclamation.  It's one of the reasons most cities switched to private garbage collection 20 years ago.


So all of you don't worry...the thieves in your communities are saving you one inch at a time all over the world.

For Americans, all those FEMA camps you are all afraid of.  They'v been already been ravaged when the scavenger 'locusts' came through two years ago.  Took years to build these things, all of them destroyed in a day for copper, steel, iron, anything that can be reclaimed, smelted and paid for.

See, the scavengers tested to see if the articles were true because the risk/reward was just right.  One tonne of copper versus waiting for the 'manned' post to clear out on government unionised schedules with people making less then 25 an hour that are completely bribable or bullied in the communities they live in by the much larger local based of scavengers.

Unless the bureaucrats are willing to pick up the garbage and haul it around, that's the way it's going to be. 

There are now charts btw, there are scavenger economists attempts as figuring out the money 'sweet' spot.  There is a profession under the thefts now.  Which means there is a practice.  How it started though was unemployed engineers and electricians.  Think Joe Q Public has the ability to turn off a relay station safely and strip it to the bolts.

You remove those people from the pool of limited talent available, then destroy the job market under them, they find something to do and start adopting students to help.  Again doesn't matter what TPTB do any more, it is simply too late.  This is the bed they made.  Meanwhile ageing transport infrastructure and poorly maintained bridges...shit even communications systems are falling to pieces daily now.

This stuff doesn't last forever. It has a shelf life that has been postponed. Think of it like owning a car. Car ownership is a bit more than driving it and putting gas in the beast. It needs new tires, shocks, brakes, etc. That's wear and tear.  Same thing happens in highways, bridges, railways, roads that haven't been fixed. The internet infrastructure I might remind everyone is now crossing the 20 year mark, 40 in some spots, 50 in others.

20 years...anyone here got a piece of computer equipment in use that's lasted 20 years without constant monitoring and repair?


So let's talk about Orwell's future dystopia.  It ignores entropy, repairing and economic realities...of course he ignores the idea that there is no script. It was a funny book, nothing remotely terrifying about it.

It was written from the stand point of a civil servant trapped in some shitty dead water job. He was part of the 1% in the novel if you pay attention to it. He pays a little bit of attention to what the other 99% do with his exploration into sex and the hooker mostly though, his life is lived in fear, food stamps and bouned paychecks.

The only people trapped in the book, or the movie, are the people working in the system. They are the ones that are oppressed. The rest of the population could give a flying fuck what they do because they had their own economy parallel to the 'real' economy in the book (what did he pay the hooker with?).  By the end of the book my conclusion was don't work for the government and avoid the situation altogether. 

And that's the rant for tonight.


Wed, 02/13/2013 - 22:44 | 3241914 dolph9
dolph9's picture

This is an important point and something that "big security" conservative types seem to have forgotten since the days of Reagan, if they even ever understood it at all.

Security is expensive.  The military is expensive.  They cost lots of taxpayer money to build and repair, even if the money is fake.  And everybody is out of fake money.

You can try creating more fake money, but then you just dilute the value of the existing fake money.

And what exactly are they hoping to find?  A guy who "may" be a threat to the system in 10 years time because he has a gun or some dope in his back pocket?  The system is disintegrating before our very eyes!


Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:35 | 3241957 CPL
CPL's picture

Even those drones everyone is jumping up and down about.  Antenna bases require a shit tonne of energy to run and on this planet, it is the only currency worth trading now.  Helicopters cost a fortune, the rationle is the drones are cheaper to operate.  But the operators aren't under the same employment contract.  They aren't required to be pilots, so they start flying 5 times more of these a day than a helicopter.  Eventually the savings in the systems as they were sold are built to make a agency lose money by offering easy pilot management systems.


Of course they'll want to take it all out for test runs and drills which incidentally costs the same to having the old copter unit.  At this point they haven't even done a real mission, it's just people fucking around during business hours.  Then they go live and the agencies that turns them all on first lose their entire operation budget in about three months in an inflationary energy market.

All you need to do is use a gardner report, recalculate the real numbers and described in the large unread document nobody commented on except the other contractors.  But understand, as contractors our motives are profit and balance of ideals.  So we make it easier for the clients to train any dumb fuck that's played a video game.  This triples costs, full on battalions of these things sucking bodies out of the forces and agencies using them because nobody will ever admit it was a bad idea that cost a fuck tonne of money.

Then as vendors we do what always happens.  We charge a service/maintanence fee, 10-20% is industry standard of the gross cost with tax (like we were going to fucking pay it).  Everytime they think of turning the key on the system after the first bill comes in, they have to make a list of people they don't need working there anymore.  Plus we want our fee in Nov, not government year end.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:37 | 3242028 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

As we say in InfoSec, "You don't build a castle to defend your goat."

Government does a poor job of assigning value to assets, in order to determine appropriate defense strategies. Because of this, no special actions will be needed, to bring about collapse. Just keep feeding Mr. Creosote exactly what he wants.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 09:41 | 3242734 PrintemDano
PrintemDano's picture

+1 Mr. Creosote reference...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 13:53 | 3243587 nofluer
nofluer's picture

Thank you both for mentioning "Mr Creosote", of whom (which?) I was unaware. Having read the Wiki, I'm moved to wonder if the writers of South Park may have been influenced by this sketch... or at the least by Monty Python, given the nature and magnitude of the subject matter?

Great Stuff! (Said while wondering if I'd personally have the "stomach" to actually view the sketch...)

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 13:57 | 3243598 nofluer
nofluer's picture

"You don't build a castle to defend your goat."

Great quote! Not only does ZH provide interesting information (I'd say useful but I have no money to use), but the intelligence levels of many participants here is amazing! (Which is to say high.) and the humor sneaks up on you when you least expect it! LOVE IT!!!

So thanks for amusing this old fart. My brain may be rotting away slowly, but I can still laugh!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:24 | 3242148 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

that's about the most realistically optimistic post i've ever read on this site.

nanny moose's is a close 2nd.

here Big Sis have another bite.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:10 | 3242257 CPL
CPL's picture

If all you are offered in the media is two options.  Then you know that you are being told a fairy tale.  Good guys, bad guys.  I see pot holes on main bridges all over Ottawa, Canada's Capital, it's where the buck stops here.  They can't get their shit together long enough to fully comprehend the direction this has gone.  

Bought a roast for older lady at the cash yesterday.  Believe me, she looked like she needed the protien.  Tiny 1 1/2 pound roast, 9 bucks.  Insane.  To do that without calling attention and people losing face.  You get the clerk to ring it up in your pile, and make sure your object of random kindness gets the other bag they "forgot".  No loss of face and no fuss, no one's the wiser behind you.  Tidy.

I simply refuse to see the dualistic fantasy that is so poorly scripted, managed and presented.  Life is much more multi-dimensional than is presented and much more adult than the offered MSM childrens tales.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 14:02 | 3243616 nofluer
nofluer's picture

Assuming that the "Decline and Fall" of the global infrastructure is universal, do you suppose it could mean that the warranty on the planet is about to expire, and that we can expect an intergalactic Freeway to come through soon?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:37 | 3244099 CPL
CPL's picture

No.  The earth is just fine.  In fact I can promise it doesn't care what is crawling all over the surface.  We are ants that have shit deeply in our own sandbox thanks to over population and really bad decisions over 100 years on how to manage resources using industrial era (1700's) politicking and finance principles to arrive here today.


We all lose because of that.  Nobody wins the round.  Nobody will remember either in 100 years.  There is no win or lose, just adapt or die.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:02 | 3242179 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Bwahahah!  One more reason to hold off the revolution until hyperinflation hits. Govt hours and disgruntled employees with worthless pensions leading to frequent inside jobs...  Flash-mob scrapping and DHS ammo plundering, bitchez!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 03:07 | 3242382 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

dude seriously about the camps....have you seen "fort Ord"... you need a better source... 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 09:05 | 3242647 CPL
CPL's picture

I sell engineering services, I use demos to sell an idea as well.  In a year, Fort Ord will be picked clean.  I didn't say it was fast, but since you brought it up and advertised the fact that there are pickings to be had. 


I'm sure a 'construction' crew will be by sometime soon.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:16 | 3242492 Seer
Seer's picture

Thanks for taking the time to post this!

I might remind people about what I like to repeat: ALL SYSTEMS FAIL

One wishing to rid of a particular system might also look to work from inside of it: in the case of govt this would mean a double-financial hit- being paid AND not providing it with new capital.  And on another angle just look at what the "insurgents" in Afghanistan and Iraq do to try and kill the host: get inside of it and "eat" it away.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 11:49 | 3243137 viahj
viahj's picture

all complex financial/government systems do not become less complex unless acted upon by an outside force (war, energy loss, etc).  the systems inherently continue to increase in complexity until collapse.  we are witnessing the collapse now, it's just a slower process than we think it should be.  soon, most of the population centers of the US will look something like Detroit, LA, NO and Chicago.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:03 | 3241964 luckylogger
luckylogger's picture

Good point................ I hope you are right.....................

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:32 | 3242025 CPL
CPL's picture

I've watched the news trend go from maybe 300 a week to around 7000-12000 a day now.  Sewer grates,  800 of them stolen, how the hell does someone not notice two guys for hours hooking storm drains.  Easy, they dress like a construction worker.

Around the world as well...things are not good anywhere.  There is literally nowhere for any of them or us to run.  This is the bed that has been made because of poorly managed infrastructure renewal.,0,6513821.story

Here's the weird thing about technology, you stop investing into it and it nearly instantly stops giving the same moment.  It takes a lot of coordination, specialized talents and constant tending to.  I wish we lived in the Star Trek universe, wave a wand and it selfheals, but it doesn't.  Larger technology base commands and demands double the effort to continue the progression.

That hasn't happened for a long time.  And if you want to see the state of the construction of the camps you can drive by most of them.  They couldn't hold a tumble weed in them.  Only way people are dying is if they fall out of a guard tower missing the five pound nickle bolts that were holding it together.

All that Alex Jones crap, is just that.  Question all the messages being delivered.  The TV says life is good, but any of us can walk around our communities and see with our own eyes and ears.  I haven't seen a drone kill anyone, but I certainly see people hungry.  People turning off the thermostat in the dead of winter because it costs too much to heat their home.  

We can all see when we look, it's everywhere.  Energy decline.  Energy, the true currency.  The only one that matters.  When it's gone.  We'll move to copper, nickle, silver and gold.  And people are already paying with PM's for energy.  The US and Canada will be no different.  Europe is just getting the start of it now.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 05:16 | 3242470 The Swedish Chef
The Swedish Chef's picture

Funny, thirty manhole covers stolen in Swedens southernmost city of Malmö last week... Albeit thirty aren´t many but Malmö is small.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:06 | 3242485 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

I'm guessing it wasn't three guys named Sven, Stig and Alrik.  

Malmo...isn't that where all the sob-story "refugees" were set loose?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 14:23 | 3243674 nofluer
nofluer's picture

An aspect of the collapse that I'm not seeing mentioned is what I'll call the rebound gap. If you try a new technology and it doesn't work out well, you simply rebound/retreat to the tech that was used before. But for whatever reason, the tech world seems to be destroying the former before the newer is proven, thus leaving a gap between the unworkable "new" and the still workable really old.Or if the new works for a while and then stops working, there's no fall back.

The problem with this is that with the drive to "upgrade" everything, even the tech worker's knowledge base, the really old has become "obsolete" and was probably canabilized for parts.

So the basic functions of a civilization may end up regressing - but where does it regress TO? The skills that were common when I was a kid in the '50s and '60s are now mostly forgotten except by a few of us old farts who are working HARD to preserve the most vital of them - ie the production on a small scale of food and things like waste elimination. (Do you know how to keep an outdoor privy from having disease carrying flies? Your grandfather did - and I do. Anyone else?)

The "old ways" weren't a loose collection of skills and "how to's" - they were a SYSTEM of living. The distinctly varied skills and knowledge bases used were interlinked to provide a modicum of civilized living. And that is one of the chiefest things that has been forgotten by most.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:42 | 3242050 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

More and more reasons to live like it's the 70's and just read books jam in a band and talk to just a few people you know

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:15 | 3242269 CPL
CPL's picture

This time the grass will be better though.

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 23:53 | 3242067 jack stephan
jack stephan's picture

Carl Spackler: License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations. Man, free to kill gophers at will. To kill, you must know your enemy, and in this case my enemy is a varmint. And a varmint will never quit - ever. They're like the Viet Cong - Varmint Cong. So you have to fall back on superior intelligence and superior firepower. And that's all she wrote.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:00 | 3242082 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Other ways you can be tracked and how to protect yourself from criminal elements and such:


Digital DNA: Your unique pattern of internet usage, websites, etc. (Beyond obvious email and IP). Defeat by splitting usage on more than one device, not ID'd to you.

Your Gait: Your unique gait and way you walk, if your face cannot be ID'd. Putting a heel lift in one shoe can defeat this.

Facial recognition: LED light on your bill cap defeats low light cameras at night.

GPS devices: How to disable your car GPS and all your phone batteries when desired -- see internet DIY.

Your Voice: digital reconstruction of your conversations from the vast digital archive is possible. Obscure voice as needed with girlfriend's vibrator on Adam's apple?

License plate readers: Accidental tar splatters can partially obscure, or make a "3" look like an "8"


And in general, lower your digital footprint on all public records. I found the above after I had my car stolen with personal data removed from contents. I perused the internet afterwards and found the above. Creepy. You can also get yourself removed from LexisNexus and other commercial sites with some doing.



Thu, 02/14/2013 - 05:10 | 3242468 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

That Dorner guy also thought he was smart enough to beat the 'american' surveillance web.

Has it been captured already so 'americans' can prevent him from accessing the martyr status as he will be shown and exhibited for the mental deranged freak he is?

So here: an 'american' comment.
Hey, but this Dorner guy is a negro so if Indo European people try their hand at it, they would beat the web.

Another comment, also based on 'american' standards: this 'american' negro was too dumb to understand he could not beat the surveillance web. 'American' indo europeans on the opposite are clever enough to understand they have no chance to beat the web. As they are 'american' though, the fantasical thought they could do it is so relieving they cant resist the urge of claiming they could achieve the deed. In front of their key board.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:31 | 3242502 Seer
Seer's picture

Um.. NO, Dorner wasn't trying to beat the surveillance web.  He was out to seek retribution, to call attention to police corruption.

Folks here aren't looking to shoot up a bunch of people and then try to "hide."

You seem to have a problem comprehending English.  Not making fun of this (English is my wife's second language, though she's more than fluent in it), but if you're really in the pursuit of knowledge then you've got to brush up on your understanding of the English language (and all the colloquialisms - ugh!).  I'm smart enough to know that I wouldn't try arguing (passing propaganda?) in Chinese...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:07 | 3243806 nofluer
nofluer's picture

In ref to a comment made by a cop after it was all over - If you're smart enough to plan to kill a number of officers, the first thing you do is put a zipper on your lip and do not TELL them what you plan!!! That was dumb. No matter how dumb the opposition is, and how smart a person is, giving the enemy your battle plan is a bad idea.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:24 | 3242497 Seer
Seer's picture

"How to disable your car GPS"

I've got 20+ year-old vehicles, where are the GPSes?

No cell phone.

Alas, will likely be tracked through ZH postings...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:02 | 3242086 Hongcha
Hongcha's picture

That insane four-legged mechanical donkey the Boston lab came up with; these cell phone towers, the cameras - a little spray, a lighter and presto - instant warmth.  They are sitting ducks.  Soon people will start fucxking them up for fun.  It will go viral - peeps posting photos of their kills.  Wait.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:14 | 3242116 Rusty Trombone
Rusty Trombone's picture

Silent Circle Bitchez!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 00:58 | 3242231 goldstandard
goldstandard's picture

Not sure why our parnoid gov't even bothers with these technologies when Obama authorized Operation Stella Wind being completed in the Utah desert for the NSA. It can and will capture every from of electronic communication you can think of. It's long past time to kill off the US corporation and return to the organic Constitution while throwing the bums out.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:14 | 3242268 CPL
CPL's picture

They can't get enough power to run it right now, and with the constant thefts, that available pool to power a data center listening to nobody dwindles just as quickly as people leave their cell phones behind once the power is redirected from cities to power that data center.

It's not unlimited, it's all over hells half acre and it needs constant replacement which hasn't been happening.  Data Centers are the first places to close in energy deficits.  Chris Martensen has some great articles and slide shows on how that works.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:10 | 3242263 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

I'm tellin' the teacher. You kids are up to something!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:39 | 3242299 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

VERY recently, in the last few days, I've been getting the feeling something REAL is going down with internet monitoring.  One web site I stumbled onto was kind of a fun read, so for the last coupla weeks I've been bouncing over there.....the other day, he said HE IS POSITIVE that he is being monitored, he just found out, and he said "YOU are probably being watched now, too".  My eyeballs just kinda stared at that one sentence for about 2 minutes, not believing what I was seeing.

Denninger had a cryptic message this week, "It has begun.  That is all."  Or something to that effect, with no explanation as yet that I'm aware.  The only thing 'I' can think of is it's something to do with his web site,  because what the hell else would be of such significance?

Obama just signed another one of his 'dictates', concerning something about Internet security, although RT seems to think it's rather innocuous.  Not so sure.

I'm starting to get a funny feeling about all this.  My computer has been taking a REEEAL long time to load stuff, but only every once in a while, as though some keystroke program or internal program was caught offguard. 

Stay aware, my friends.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 02:59 | 3242378 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

It will be interesting to see what Denninger has to say when he's wiping his ass with fiat.


Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:10 | 3242489 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

Thought it was just Vlad....hmmmm.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:37 | 3242506 Seer
Seer's picture

Internet storefronts and "free" sites need some way to generate enough revenue to keep the lights on.

Install Ghostery and watch all the tracking/reporting shit load.  Much of the "odd" stuff  can be attributed to plain old Madison Avenue type activities: but. yeah, there's the "1%"... (know the origins- DARPA, it should be pretty clear who controls things).

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 01:39 | 3242301 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

the rockefeller axis of evil rolls on....this in conjunction with all of those surveillance cameras at every street corner is the orwellian state - one planned by the rae and bush crime syndicate during ww2....nazism is alive and well....

the only terrorists are the bcs and its constituent qaeda is a franchise of the bcs/cia....terrorism is the biggest hoax since barry soetoro, indonesian citizen, was installed as president.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 06:41 | 3242509 Seer
Seer's picture

"terrorism is the biggest hoax since barry soetoro, indonesian citizen, was installed as president."

Just when you thought that passing off an ex drug addict, cheerleader (from a family of Nazi supporters) as a down-to-earth cowboy for president topped the cake...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 02:47 | 3242371 Archduke
Archduke's picture

meet the solar eagle platform: hovering in the upper stratisphere nigh-permanently (5 years' autonomy)


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