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Santelli: "In This Day And Age, Being A Trader Is Downright Impossible"

Tyler Durden's picture





 

With central banks sponsoring their own (and each other's) bond markets, and every financial entity owning its own and each other's bonds, Santelli pops his lid over the Pollyanna business leaders (like Bob Lutz - proclaiming GM's European business is troughing because Goldman Sachs is buying European bonds) are pointing to market-based bond prices as indicative of optimism and that economically the worst (must) be over. "Forget the wall of worry, this is the wall of weakness", Rick rants, and the interconnectedness of global markets now means if Goldman is right (as we noted yesterday) that Treasuries are 200bps rich then how does that reconcile with growth that is just bumbling along as evidenced with today's GDP prints from around the world (and surging unemployment). Just what is the Fed going to do to save the world this time? - buy $160bn more per month if we see global weakness restart? How do traders react to slowing global growth? Buy Treasuries? Indeed, the good is bad but bad is better meme seems back and being a trader is, as Rick notes, nigh on impossible.

 

 


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Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:08 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Buy & hold [your balls to the sizzling hot ponzi grill fire]

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:11 | Link to Comment Punct
Punct's picture

When DOW was 12k I was saying that there's no way it could go up, when 13k the same, now at 14k nothing surprises me anymore. I don't even know why we are expecting a correction when the US market is more like the Chinese market, fraudulent, misleading, and alltogether a big lie. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:29 | Link to Comment MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

Santelli correct that it is very difficult to trade profitably in these markets. Spotty ZH computer nerds simply cannot handle the pressure of today's volatile markets. Trading requires an ability to think fast under pressure,and make tough decisions with real money at stake. The challenge is only maginfide when you're on the front line on a trading desk at a 'bulge bracket' investment bank. That's why these traders are selected from the best Ivy League schools in the country. Many of the selected candidates showed exception leadership skills in addition to their academic achievements, such as serving as head of the finance club or head boy at a prestigious school. Now these boys are handling some serious cash, and although the rewards are great, it ain't easy being in their shoes.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:39 | Link to Comment nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Madoff and Raj were Ivy league?  Huh..... who knew?

"Head boy?"    LOL.  They handled serious cash though.....

 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:46 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

There are not enough jews involved in banking, trading, derivative, or otherwise capital markets... If there were [by chance] ~ I'm sure the whole system would be much more fair & honest...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:37 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

Go get your shine box bitch.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:40 | Link to Comment Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

Give me a break MBD!!

 

   When guys like Bill Gross and Bass talk about the difficulty of trading in a manipulated market, then you have to take notice. Well of course you dont, because you are a troll and tool. Your act is old. Go troll another sight. 

 

Now go and play with some other forum and maybe call one of your "headboys" and see if they are in need of your oral services.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:55 | Link to Comment Say What Again
Say What Again's picture

MDB,

You really ARE a moron.

You said; "Spotty ZH computer nerds simply cannot handle the pressure of today's volatile markets."

The markets are definitely NOT volatile.  They have been on a STRAIGHT line since November.  And if you go back farther in time over the last few years, there have been many other POMO/QE driven STRAIGHT lines lasting many months.

The markets have been unusually irrational lately, but they have NOT been volatile!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 19:24 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Try a silver chart and play-trade the fundamentals. You'll go mad in a nanosec.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:56 | Link to Comment azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

I think more of them were Altar boys which explains their skills at assraping

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:59 | Link to Comment Goldenballs
Goldenballs's picture

Money was wasted on your eduction you cannot even f****n spell,what a jerk.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:48 | Link to Comment WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Are you long duration MDB?

I guess being long duration is like smoking weeds, stop just before the end of the joint or you will burn yourself.

 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:54 | Link to Comment bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

MDB the troll is back!!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:38 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

Calm down.  Traders?  Please.  Look, the system broke many years ago, everyone human in the markets knows this, most (bank) traders are lazy.  They just whack down longs on supported ranges as HFTs keep the thing stable -  all reliant on the doomsday machine called The Fed.  But it is a house of cards, dependent on very buggy and volatile algorithms and human greed.  Great combo.  One day the electronic market will collapse and we will go back to our open out cry days.

In the meantime my advice is to wait for extreme lows and highs and trade accordingly, study financial history particularly busts and how dumb ass goverments and money printers f*ck everything up every time (reading now about the first hyperinflation in Germany 1600's).

 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:24 | Link to Comment raki_d
raki_d's picture

What Fed is clearly doing is reflating the deflating economy. They feel 'ouright deflation' compared to 'steady inflation by printing' is more damaging than the latter. Cheapening the debt with rising stock market flooding the banks with cheap money is their agenda. But whats not clear to me is how all this debt accumulated by govt & fed is bad in long run. I read articles that all this printing will be bad in long run - will blow up, sink the ship, cause a panic, meltdown etc etc. Im trying to get a definitive answer how / when: at what point will that happen ? what would be the trigger?

 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:50 | Link to Comment chubbyjjfong
chubbyjjfong's picture

When people begin to lose 'faith' in the system, in paper, in the $US.  First some kind of bubble pops (stocks, student loans, property), then the BS reasons emerge from the MSM.  The bubbles that exist now, as we know, are far greater in magnitude than ever before.  They become harder and harder for MSM to explain.  The unexplainable will soon happen in an extraordinary way.  MSM will struggle to explain it, the sheeples faith will dwindle, then snowball in a panic and it will happen faster than anyone could have imagined.  

It is the lack of faith of the masses that is the trigger.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 01:18 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Problem is all of that happened back in Aug-Oct 2008, and the very same shitbags are back spoon-feeding idiots snake oil.

 

WARNING: This is not an exercise.

 

People are VERY STUPID

 

Never under-estimate that basic fact ... as banks and govts never do.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:48 | Link to Comment bmwm395
bmwm395's picture

haha i just tryed to flick the bug off my comp lol

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:47 | Link to Comment twittering as s...
twittering as stocktradr's picture

profitable traders know the market is rigged, fixed, "fraudulent, misleading, and alltogether a big lie."  that is a given.   if you do not know how to trade and make money from that kind of market do not trade.  pretty simple.   twittering as stocktradr

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:10 | Link to Comment Cupid Stunt
Cupid Stunt's picture

 "In This Day And Age, Living Under A Overpass Is Downright Impossible"

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:11 | Link to Comment medium giraffe
medium giraffe's picture

Has Soros not just made a packet on the ¥?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:12 | Link to Comment LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

Trader???

 

Try being a fucking middle class honest fucking shlub who's just trying to put fucking food on the family table, or a kid through overfucking priced and corrupted school.

 

Fuck professional traders, get a real fucking job you fucking wall street assholes.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:13 | Link to Comment Joe Davola
Joe Davola's picture

Now that's more like it!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:18 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Well said.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:50 | Link to Comment Mad Mohel
Mad Mohel's picture

This is an angry cat! But he is telling it like it is. Big ups.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:26 | Link to Comment Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

He always talks like that. I wonder if he talks like that to the missus when he disagrees about her choice of dishes.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:01 | Link to Comment phalfa5
phalfa5's picture

she left years ago ...   with the neighbor...   oh  uhhh   sorry, thought u was talking to me Tango

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:14 | Link to Comment Scalaris
Scalaris's picture

Trader???

 

Try being a plain working class citizen without resorting to desperation-driven self-immolation, when you are no longer able to exchange your labour and time for a meagre stipend that once provided shelter and sustenance for your family, because your potentates decided that they did in fact deserved their excess wealth fueled by trillions of dollars of machinated, infinite and unbacked debt instruments, whose collapse would only affect the inferior and unworthy masses.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:53 | Link to Comment SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

It was better the first time faggot.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:41 | Link to Comment Scalaris
Scalaris's picture

You could forgo with the homoerotic prejudice son; nothing wrong with taking a penis.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 22:10 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

It only hurt a little, at first

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:33 | Link to Comment centerline
centerline's picture

Exactly.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:36 | Link to Comment Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Million Dollar Bonus was saying the same thin LongSoupLine, only he does it all with sarcasm. Clearly he is posting the line that the establishment and inside wall-streeters would take. When he says it, he is pointing out how rediculous it is!

The fact that a lot of these traders at banks and investment firms are just kids right out of college shows that the game is really a totally rigged game. These kids play their part in a rigged beforehand system. I know, because a high school and college friend of my daughters got a job at a major european bank right after graduation and he was on a trading desk then 2 years later moved on to Royal Bank of Scotland as a project managers, aged now 28! I know the kid, he is smart, but to put that kid on a trading desk in Europe after graduation from a small Mid West college in Wisconsin! You gotta be shiting me! The only way he could step onto a trading desk is if he was playing in a totally rigged system!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment WarHorse
WarHorse's picture

As an MD & trader at a huge Eureopean bank I can assure you that you haven't a fuking clue as to what you're talking about .,,. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:09 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

A huge European bank that was tits up before the Beard bailed you fucks out.

Be proud parasite.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:13 | Link to Comment WarHorse
WarHorse's picture

Traders were not the cause of the weakness in Europe you fuckwit ,...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:21 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

Is that the lie you tell yourself in the morning when you go out to rape grandmothers, widows, and orphans for your huge European bank?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:20 | Link to Comment WarHorse
WarHorse's picture

I guess all the sovereign loans to the PIIGS made by European banks had nothing to do with it ... FYI - traders don;t make loans

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:27 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

While some employees of huge European banks get the ankles, and other employees of huge European banks get the wrists you just sit in the corner sniffing grannies panties.

Keep rationalizing your subsidized existence, I'm sure it helps.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment WarHorse
WarHorse's picture

As an MD & trader at a huge Eureopean bank I can assure you that you haven't a fuking clue as to what you're talking about .,,. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:09 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

Welfare bitch.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:19 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

go get him fuu... [Nah ~ on 2nd thought, don't waste your time on a 'disinformation' pony]

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:23 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

Why not? Not like there is anything else interesting going on around here now that we have shifted into "teach the controversy" mode.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:37 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

No laws against smiling while your head is being jammed down the toilet bowl gettin' your daily swirlie...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:40 | Link to Comment fuu
Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:49 | Link to Comment WarHorse
WarHorse's picture

You're an idiot.  How do you think manufacturers, airlines, oil companies, etc hedge their commodity, interest rate and FX risk?  Get rid of all the traders, liquidity dries up, bid/ask widens and the costs are passed on to you .... what a joke ... all these huge bonuses the media highlights get paid to about .01% of Wall Street ..... you're just a resentful, bitter guy who shold have studied harder 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:03 | Link to Comment SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

Get the fuck out of here.  Over the long run, any short term savings you realize by managing the risks you mention are completely outweighed by the costs of such strategies.  It's a casino and the house always gets its cut.  The mfg firms are just marks for the banks... 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:16 | Link to Comment WarHorse
WarHorse's picture

You have absolutely zero concept of how companies with huge CapEx manage cashflows and secure budgets ....

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:03 | Link to Comment phalfa5
phalfa5's picture

SMACK HIM DADDY!!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:20 | Link to Comment alangreedspank
alangreedspank's picture

My thoughts.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:18 | Link to Comment alangreedspank
alangreedspank's picture

Perfect example of a class warfare pawn! 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:12 | Link to Comment PUD
PUD's picture

WHY SHOULD ANYONE BE A "TRADER" IT SERVES NO USEFUL PURPOSE. JUST ENABLES THE GAMBLING MENTALITY THAT IS RIFE IN THIS STUPID NATION

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:14 | Link to Comment DoneThis2Long
DoneThis2Long's picture

You need to study the evolution of markets during the past 30 years. It was traders that brought spreads from $0.50 or $0.25 to $0.01 - and for a while even less. Not to mention creating new exchanges (which eventually were gobbled up by the whales).

Traders also provide liquidity, often not allowing the Market Maker or Specialist to fuck-over the public (directly or through funds) .... at least not as much as they used to, or would like to.

If you were to study the market mechanisms, you'd understand that trading financial vehicles is no different than dealing in any other products. Retailers hold inventory longer and make larger profits for the risk exposure, wholesalers deal in tighter spreads and faster inventory roll-over.

As for "gambling" define it please.

If you are a business man, you are more of a gambler by signing a 1,2,3,5 year lease, or hiring some employee even after doing a half decent background check, as you are responsible for the full extent of the lease just as you are responsible for the actions of your employee. On the other-hand, as a trader, I can - and have - changed my mind seconds after entering the order, the result being a flat cancellation at zero cost, or liquidation either with minimal losses (few bucks) or even at a profit. When entering a trade, the smart ones gauge the risk/reward just as "investors" except we use different time-frames and criteria. Choosing your mate is a gamble, deciding to have children is a gamble, so educate yourself before trashing a subject. A true gamble is placing a bet on three lemons across, or on red 4 (sorry, I do not gamble so if I am incorrect on the Roulette tis cuz I never played it .... Vegas only got me for half a roll of nickels I found on top of a slot machine ... not my cup of java).

As for the nation going to shit, is not gambling, but lack of education and balls to take on the corrupt politicians who find gambling as the answer to all problems, then divert the revenues into the pockets of their masters.

But then, I am absolutely certain you knew all of these details ..... just as you know COMPUTER ETIQUETTE AND TYPING AN ENTIRE MESSAGE WITH CAPS ON IS A NO-NO !!!!

Having an opinion is one thing, not having a clue what you are TALKING ABOUT is another. Financial markets are clearly not your strong point.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 23:06 | Link to Comment SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

You're fucking retarded.  The traders didnt narrow spreads.  The IT guys did.

And no, trading is no different than a slot machine.  And just as productive. 

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 02:05 | Link to Comment DoneThis2Long
DoneThis2Long's picture

"You're fucking retarded.  The traders didnt narrow spreads.  The IT guys did."

Noob, you must have been looking in the mirror when replying to my post. A bad habit. Get your fucking facts straight, then we'll chat.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:12 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I'd say just BTFD Rick but there isn't even a FD any longer to buy.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:24 | Link to Comment sitenine
sitenine's picture

Respectfully disagreeing with you here. Gold and silver have been monkey hammered non-stop this week. I just exchanged more TP this morning for more of the shiny barbaric relics,  and I couldn't be happier.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:59 | Link to Comment bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

It is difficult to call the "opportunities" you speak of "dips" - but they are.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:48 | Link to Comment EclecticParrot
EclecticParrot's picture

. . . more like BTFF - Buy The Fucking Flatline (?)  

Or, perhaps GTFS:  Goose the Fucking Shorts, as it seems no matter where we end the day, the topmost pivot point gets licked once or twice (at least for the Russell 2K, the index I focus on.)

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:14 | Link to Comment Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

It is only "impossible" if you are not well-connected enough to be  privy to when and where the next intervention is going to take place. In other words, if you are a "non-muppet".

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:17 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Wah, wah, wah,  fuck you, another fiat whore crying about how rough life is, fuck off...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:24 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It's tragic to see that eveyone's DREAM of retiring at the age of 30 ~ & spending the rest of their life shanking balls 'on the DRIVING RANGE' with a laptop PC by their side, 'pattern recognition software', & 200 free trades will not come to fruition...

~~~

Can I interest you in a job as a WALMART greeter?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:25 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

That which cannot be sustained, won't be. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:23 | Link to Comment Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

Thanks Rick and Tyler AND the ZHer's. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one out  here.

 

Now. Rick looks like he wants to kick some ass lately. Some keynesian neo-marxist socialist ass that is. Lets throw Krugman,Geithner and Bernanke into the pit with Rick. I know! It would totally be an unfair fight. That is why we would tie one of Ricks arms behind his back!

 

 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:24 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Are they really going to nudge the S&P up 1 point a day from here on out? That is the plan?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:36 | Link to Comment Whiteshadowmovement
Whiteshadowmovement's picture

god willing, with lots and lots of churn and rotation, looks like the monkey method will serve you well

 

PS- isnt it cute that they keep Santelli on tv? when your rants make it to ZH on the daily, your 15 minutes of novelty factor are nearly up...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:43 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Hey Fonz....Do you remember back before the collapse in 07 how they kept nudging it up a point or two every day. They nudged it up until it touched the old 2000 high.....   then whoosh it sank  faster than a Jim Cramer stock recommendation.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:19 | Link to Comment Whiteshadowmovement
Whiteshadowmovement's picture

yeah but between that and tanks on the streets, we pretty much decided it was better to go back to 2007.

And now for tonights entertainment, I present an 8-year old rapping about cars and expensive cheese:

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh8kLZk548uM6XKnIj

That was the market I got started in by the way doc (06-07), i remember like yesterday going to 100% cash (the reason im still around) just in time.

This time my gut feeling is things are totally different, everybody knows its rigged and would prefer this charade over the process of real change

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:11 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I remember it really well. I feel like I am watching a combo of 07 and 2000 play out.

When you march out Leon Cooperman and he is pitching facebook you have to know you are on the edge of a cliff.

But I don't see the catalyst. No one has any doubt Ben will go to 100 bil a month if he has to. So unlike both those years this time the market has to overthrow a sumo wrestler sitting on their back. I'm not saying it can't happen but it feels different.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:20 | Link to Comment Whiteshadowmovement
Whiteshadowmovement's picture

Exactly, all the more reason to try and inflate the aggregate to counter the deflationary retiree population.

Look fonz, this isnt even a ZH insider thing. Just the other day USA Today did a thing on this:

"Recent and near-retirees, the first major cohort of the 401(k) era, do not have nearly enough in retirement savings to even come close to maintaining their current lifestyles."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/02/05/social-security-retirem...

Theres no fucking around here fonz, put yourself in the position of TPTB, you have only a few weapons tp counter this massive deflationary trend,
expanding the market that these 401ks are based on and continue to supplement more and more welfare income (this requires some fine tuning, but that is why we call them central planners, isnt it?)

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:26 | Link to Comment dracos_ghost
dracos_ghost's picture

And who exactly buys this inflated aggregate? The younger 401(k) worker? The Hedgie? Talk about a Ponzi scheme. And just because they print a quarterly statement, doesn't mean your 401(k) is funded.

I agree, it's not going to be like 2008. It will be worse because the TPTB have shot their wad. The only thing left is to start shooting the masses.

The real culprit is the Global Progressive Movement or whatever the fuck you want to call it. Governments want to keep the status quo, the power elite are sick of funding disfunctional government so a little quid pro quo is in order. Governments get to kick the can down the road and maintain their lush lifestyles in exchange for a blowoff in equity markets so the elites can rake it in when the pensions panic and chase the return from the blowoff.

Let's see what happens the day NO-BID flashes the news wire for anything.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:21 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Yeah I saw that. A couple of thoughts come to mind. The first is that those 401ks are looking more and more attractive to the feds every day. Secondly their returns are based on funny money. If Ben ever slows down the printing these people will find that they are four years closer to their retirement and in for a rude awakening.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:27 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I call bullshit on Ben the atruist. Take that 4 trillion dollar balance sheet and break it up and send everyone a check. Or better yet credit it towards their own personal debt write down. It will never happen. He will hand that money to the banks and they will issue it as more debt to the sheep. The market may be going up and most of the sheep have missed it.

QE is by the banks, for the banks.

Joey 401(k) can go out back and Dorner himself for all Ben cares.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:32 | Link to Comment Whiteshadowmovement
Whiteshadowmovement's picture

Well fonz, I think you are being a bit rash- you know perfectly well why they cant and wont send everybody a check. Printing money doesnt solve anything. Fixing prices kinda postpones it though...

Altruism doesnt really come into it, its either this or the abyss and most people cast their lot with the former. Welfare and a bit of wealth effect is intended for baby boomers who wouldnt stand a chance in a real collapse

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:28 | Link to Comment Whiteshadowmovement
Whiteshadowmovement's picture

Im not following on the first point dpc, what do you mean by attractive to the feds exactly?

On the other point, thats why I think as long as you accept the notion that the markets are rigged by the Fed, in part for this very purpose, its unlikely to assume we are due for a repeat of 2008. It depends on how deeply you believe the Fed is in control of markets, but if they are it really is a new paradigm and not history repeating itself

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:33 | Link to Comment mattdubz86
mattdubz86's picture

Its 10:30AM where was your gold sell order?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:47 | Link to Comment azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

I know Lutz from my years in Detroit. Great car guy-lousy businessman. Those old time automotive guys are just like govt workers, spend spend spend

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:50 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

'Traders' are whining its hard to trade now? Gee, what a shame....aren't they the same guys who BEGGED Bernank to do all this? Now they dont like it so much?

I recall a quote having something to do with a 'bed' and those who make it must go lie in it.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:57 | Link to Comment raki_d
raki_d's picture

I wonder why CNBC hasnt fired Rick Santelli yet ..

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:58 | Link to Comment A. Magnus
A. Magnus's picture

It's called 'controlled opposition' for a reason...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 19:22 | Link to Comment DoneThis2Long
DoneThis2Long's picture

'cuz he is one of two who truly have a clue what drives the markets and have the integrity not to play the ponzi game this fucking administration has been playing via the Fed.

Instead of addressing the economic problems through sound policies, the idiot-in-chief is spending like a drunken sailor, the crooks on the Hill are rubbers stamping the projects for they are too ignorant and/or crooked to do otherwise, and then lob it at the Fed - Ben - to deal with the heap of shit through fiscal engineering which is total bullshit. The Feds job is to keep the vehicle on the road not to draw maps, build roads, design & build autos, and keep the damn thing on the road.

Ben is complicit by not quitting so to spotlight the issues.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 20:21 | Link to Comment Just Ice
Just Ice's picture

Ben is much more culpable than complicit...when he decided to destroy savers and purchasing power by blowing bubbles and debasing the currency through QEternity.  This just when there are many fixed income retirees and baby boomers on the verge of retirement who are not physically capable of starting over in life.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 21:47 | Link to Comment DoneThis2Long
DoneThis2Long's picture

Ben is much more culpable than complicit

OK. I'll go with that, if you agree that in addition to demolishing the retirement nest eggs, and thus sending us into the "Brown Cesspool" (aka "the crapper") instead of "On Golden Pond".

Also, this lead to giving a vasectomy to the former 'middle class' by shifting our wealth into the pockets of the already wealthy: the former middle class lacking the $, could no longer participate, and thus compete in purchasing assets ultimately bought by the already wealthy. This allowed the purchases at drastically cheaper prices than otherwise would have, and at much lower carrying costs due to historical lower interest rates. This is also explaining the increasing disparity in earnings and net-worths ....aka class war-fare. That debasing is the root of numerous problems America is facing today, with tricky choices, since what would solve one problem will exasperate another, causing us to choose between bad and worse. Which bring us back to 6-7%, which is the point at which the fireworks should have begun.

IMO, once the crooks on the Hill begun taking apart the American System on wholesale level, the destruction begun. I am speaking of demolishing the manufacturing system which was the 1st to go. Since then, it has been one "system" after another. We have nothing left that is worth as shit. NOTHING. The last to go is the legal system and the Constitution is has been the nation's foundation, on which all else was built. I guess that explains why the thief-in-chief and his team of thieves are so eager to disarm the civilian force, pretty much the last thing standing between them and the spoils.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:56 | Link to Comment A. Magnus
A. Magnus's picture

The markets have all been rigged when 'Red Ronnie' Reagan created the Plunge Protection Team in 1987. Where the fuck was Santelli when his hero was turning the US into a Marxist controlled economy? That's like Jews crying about Hitler after the last Nazis died in Paraguay from old age...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:16 | Link to Comment fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Obamanuts blaming dead Republicans, Obamanuts blaming alive Republicans, Obamanuts blaming...

All Obama has to do to get rid off all the Republicans is sign a Excutive Order making them illegal.

He will never do that though. Without someone to blame he will have to look at Moochelle.....

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 15:59 | Link to Comment jomama
jomama's picture

he seems to be doing alright...?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:08 | Link to Comment azengrcat
azengrcat's picture

Buy now or be priced out forever!  

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:11 | Link to Comment Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

If you want to know what QE buys you, read this:

http://www.france24.com/en/20130213-everything-table-us-eu-trade-talks-us

Judging by the tone of the article, team USA feels they are dealing from a position of strength.  Remember how things were back in the early days of the EU?  Remember how the EU was going to dictate to the world?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:48 | Link to Comment fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Just as every other freetrade agreement has resulted in more jobs so this will as well.

We are so fortunate to have leadership in the US and EU that work tirelessly for the common man/woman/transgner/lesbian/gay/pediophile citizens.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Hey Santelli, if Al Gore can start some shit ball leftist snake oil TV station and sell it to the Arabs for a net $100 million, this might be your clarion call. Instead of ranting on that piece of shit 24hour infomercial CNBS , you should put some like minded people together put your money where your mouth is , and start your own gig. People might take you a little bit more seriously. Ed

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:25 | Link to Comment raki_d
raki_d's picture

What Fed is clearly doing is reflating the deflating economy. They feel 'ouright deflation' compared to 'steady inflation by printing' is more damaging than the latter. Cheapening the debt with rising stock market flooding the banks with cheap money is their agenda. But whats not clear to me is how all this debt accumulated by govt & fed is bad in long run. I read articles that all this printing will be bad in long run - will blow up, sink the ship, cause a panic, meltdown etc etc. Im trying to get a definitive answer how / when: at what point will that happen ? what would be the trigger?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:55 | Link to Comment centerline
centerline's picture

There are good articles here on the shadow banking system that is collapsing (deflationary event of course).  The hole it leaves needs to be filled, else the near infinite chain of counterparty exposure takes down the global banking system in a blinding white flash of digital destruction (hyperdeflation).  This hole is being with electronic cash, which for the most part goes nowhere.  But, the big difference is that this cash is tangible.  It can be mobilized and spike velocity.  Just needs a trigger.

Since 2009 or so, I have been comparing it to fueling a rocket.  I wager than hyperinflation already occured, but we did not "feel it" or at least not yet, because it was vented into creative financial instruments.

Now, with the advent of such lunacy as CABs, it is pretty clear that we are heading for a hyper-something event.

In an even larger view, the real subject is our transition into a lower EROEI world on overly complex, intertwined global systems built on perpetual growth which clearly is in conflict with the reality of lower EROEI.  Something is going to give and it isn't EROEI.

By now I think we can all agree that everything including ritual sacrifice of throwing virgins into volcanoes will be done to kick the can a little further.  Based on this, we just waiting for the proverbial straw that broke the camels back (e.g. a black swan).  We will know the trigger and timing only after the event occurs, unfortunately.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:05 | Link to Comment WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Well you can not have a blow up on a boom fueled by base money. But as soon as the money is spent in real goods the inflation fire is lit up. Right now you had devaluation. How come? Fed pushes currency units in the system, that deleverages the bank but the base money is not used in teh real economy so far. It goes into stocks, bonds, Gold a bit (but later a lot) and in foreign currency and foreign assets.
Since it does not go into the local economy not much local inflation. Inflation seems high in comparison to commodities but it is not because were are using a lot of those, it is just that buying foreign currencies with the new units make the price look higher because the USD is pushed down. As Thomas Tooke said, dearness is money in the end of the consumers, cheapness is money in the hand of the capitalistl. So first maneouvre print a lot of money, that pushes that the currency down in relation to the others, that brings a bit of breathing room for companies competing. Next since you have printed a lot of fire bricks (base money) you need to light up the fire.

That is where the Gov gets into play. The gov does a thing similar to moving the wheels in the opposite direction as would be intuitively warranted when you skid on icy road. The Governmetn INCREASES SPENDING and RAISES minimum wages?

 

Why? REmemebr there is a lot of idle money newly printed, but as long as it stays idle and not lit-up nothign happens. You could print gazillions of new base money, if not used, not inflation. If going only into finanical assets, no inflation.

So Gov spends and jacks up inflation by raising minimum wages. Then the prisoner dilemma is broken. Inflation expectation rises, and company spend on shitty projects (low return) why? Because the other alternative to watch the cash melt because of inflation is worse.

Than the Gov can collect more nominal dollars and inflate upwards in tax revenues. Inflate away has always been the remedy. If inflation rises a lot, lots of nominally higher tax revenues. At that point the Gov can slow down a bit the spending, and remove some fuel from the fire place. Next Fed flattens a bit the curve. But anyway under this situation teh inflation is chronic.

WHEN DOES THE WHOLE SHAM COLLAPSE?

When what the Fed gets in return on its securities on the balance sheet is lower than what it is forced to pay on excess reseverves. At that point there is a cash flow problem because the receipts are lower than expenses. The Fed plugs the hole with newly printed money but that makes inflation worse. That is called hyperinflation. We are years away from that if it will happen ever.

For now PM are going down because the hyperinflationists are disappointed and the general dumb money don´t realize that inflation will go high single digit double digits in years. WHne we cross 5% on the 10 years and inflation at 6%, Gold will be on steroids again

When the curve steepens a lot, Gold spike happens, sell some of your gold and buy calls on short end interest rates.

 

 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 20:38 | Link to Comment Just Ice
Just Ice's picture

"Since it does not go into the local economy not much local inflation. . ."

Your local economy must not have any grocery stores or gas stations.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:46 | Link to Comment hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

dont worry there is still scope for analagies within humor...get in the mood for friday fun...its going ot be a bad!

http://www.clipjunkie.com/The-Most-Offensive-Jokes-Ever-Part-II-vid13847...

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:48 | Link to Comment SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

Re: the headline.  Imagine that, you might have to actually work for a living.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:49 | Link to Comment are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

I will ask the obvious question no one asks..... how do I become a non muppet and get inside information of when and what the big boys with small brains and government connections are going to do?

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 20:05 | Link to Comment hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

forge your birth certificate, marry someone with a fat ass, get a gang going who can force the pace on the internet...oh and get 5 billion dollars of someone elses money and RUN FOR PREZ...or congress if your consituents dont find out where you actually live.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 00:26 | Link to Comment are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

Thank u for trying. I was hoping for something more like a George Soros peeping Tom blog site with transcripts of secret formulas for stock trades and how the world really works.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 16:53 | Link to Comment Zen Bernanke
Zen Bernanke's picture

if deflation were good for the big money political contributors, markets would have been allowed to seek their own level.  But it's not, so they push the inflation meme.   The fact is, deflation is great for the poor and middle class as it lowers the cost of living, but it sucks for the banks and property owners and stocks.   Thus the clusterfuck we're in right now. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:09 | Link to Comment Tombstone
Tombstone's picture

As a human, if you are finding it difficult to trade, that is because the computers are stealing your money faster than you can steal it from them.  It would be fun to see the markets naked of all the FED and central planning shenanigans. 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 17:24 | Link to Comment harami
harami's picture

When are they going to replace Santelli with a big titted blonde that will make sexual euphamisims about the limp state of the economy and what she'd do to jump start it?

That illusion would be far more entertaining than the angry old man they let rant day in and day out.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:42 | Link to Comment DoneThis2Long
DoneThis2Long's picture

FOOD FIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And here I thought the ZH crowd was financially edumacated. I was 'wong'.

It seems most have not a fucking clue what the financial markets are all about.

In a nut shell:

  • investors purchase equities, commods, bonds, etc mostly based on 'fundamentals' and with a long term horizon. To obtain whatever the fuck you are buying you place an order;
  • traders deal with the "order flow", and frankly give a rats ass about the 'fundamentals. They look mostly to technicals and their time frame is far shorter (from seconds to day(s).

Each plays an important role in the end game. Investors w/o traders are fucked, just as traders w/o investors.

In the past, The idiots in the Congress and Senate played the most important role in dictating the fundamentals based on which ALL businesses worked, and along them, so did the financial markets. The Fed was there simply to ensure that the economic climate was such so to facilitate smooth economic conditions, and did so using monetary tools. Also, ensured the country's monetary needs were met.

As stated above, 30 years ago, we were blessed with Blow Me Bill Clinton, who decided to remove the collars/controls off the banks, which in turn became a watershed into the business world. All the cash became 'fair game' for the man who walked on water and drove the fucking buss under Niagara ..... aka Greenspan. The politicians, who should have taken over the reigns at that very important moment and pass a number of well thought out regulations aimed at stabilizing the markets, instead fucked around, and lobbed the hot potato to Greenspan then Uncle Ben. As much as I believe Ben is a schmuck, once the rates got to 6-7% he should have raked the politicians over coals and raise awareness at their incompetence or just resign.

The aftermath of '07 WAS AVOIDABLE/MANAGEABLE if done properly, I opined so then, but was looked at as if from Mars. Today some of the proposed steps are being taken, but too fucking late, and too little.

But before I stray .... stop bitching about traders. It is like blaming the tool maker because the CAD designer, or the engineer was an idiot. If the tool maker is a good one, he just might catch the error in previewing the plans before going to work and fix the problem before fucking up the job. But it takes a team.

A trader is much like an ER doctor who cannot communicated with a mangled patient, instead relying on labs and imaging tests. Other doctors, would rather listen to the history ..... it takes both.

For the record, I've been a prop(rietary) trader and investor for 30 years. I have traded the spooz when the VIX was in the 70's and 80's. I give a damn less who has to say what about anything. I read, study, and draw my own conclusions, then decide if I am better off not participating, or if I do, how to best approach it. I've also helped co-author two books (I am not here to pimp anything, just to help educate, but more importantly to learn ... at times what to, at times what not to do).

Bottom line: stop pissing on Rick, or traders: go after the idiots on the Hill and the dick-head in the white house. That is where your problems start, then, to a lesser degree the Fed. Ohhhh .... and stop believing those bullshit numbers from the government. Demand accountability from those clowns, and forget not re-electing them. Impeach the jerks, and expedite the process. Put pressure by calling and writing them. They work for us!!!!!

(more than) ....'nuff ...

 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 19:04 | Link to Comment brucyy
brucyy's picture

agreed.

You sir , have my respect.

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 19:34 | Link to Comment DoneThis2Long
DoneThis2Long's picture

Thank you. Much appreciated!

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 21:09 | Link to Comment Just Ice
Just Ice's picture

The markets had the purpose of allowing investors/traders to participate in and provide capital and liquidity in accomodation of the economy and dealing with underlying fundamentals of specific markets.  My complaint with traders/speculators is when the markets are manipulated to the extent rather than reflecting the underlying they become the tail wagging the dog, so to speak, in trying to direct and cause the course of the underlying.  For example, using walls of money through hedge funds, commodity funds or prop desks to push or paint the tape, rumors designed to push or paint the tape, actions designed to stop run or front run other participants.  I think these are all egitimate complaints.  (And I've also invested/speculated for some time.)    

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 03:02 | Link to Comment DoneThis2Long
DoneThis2Long's picture

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that traders/speculators are exaggerating moves in either direction?

Not doubt that markets are being manipulated, and always have been, hence one of the jobs we have is to try to establish what data is already priced in and to what extent.

I am not sure how long you've been trading. I got in just as quotes systems for "retail" were becoming available. I was among the 1st of the 1st of the 1st. My 1st quote system was Signal v1.0 and my black box # was 200ish. Methods changed drastically since then yet some things remain valid today, namely deception of adversaries. I never traded on the floor, but did know a few guys who did. One of them was Lead Month trader in the Long Bond (30 years). One of his clients was Paul Tudor Jones. The guy told me that even back then, the 'big boys' used a number of traders so to conceal their moves since other trader would soon know who was trading for whom, so even this guy for instance would only know that he bought a 50 a 10 and 30 lot, then sold 25 and bought 30 more, but no idea if someone else in the crowd was doing more selling or buying for PTJ.

Now, algos are running the show, stacking/painting the tape, and it is our job to try to read through the moves what the intent is.

Often times, it is not a collusion to manipulate anything. You have two alphas of opposing opinions trying to get the last penny of the other, or at times, you have the same, two or three alphas going in the same direction so you find yourself in the middle of a pissing match.

That is what made the business so damn interesting, frustrating, enjoyable, rewarding ... at times, maddening at others. One never know if should be happy or sad when he gets filled.

One of the best quotes I ever heard about trading, came from a CBOE pit trader as he was interviewed, on the hills of the '87 crash: "a trader goes through more emotions in one day than most people go through in one year". Then, 'a day' was six hours.

Back to your gripe, it sounds like the more recent vintage, where you get someone getting in front blocking the b/a be it the inside market, or the entire side of B or A. I made good money watching the tape, and playing their game, since I sure as hell cannot beat a refreshing 15-20k lot plus whatever is hidden. If you carefully read the tape, they'll let you know. BTW, I too used to hate their tricks. Then after I got burned, I decided to take a month and read the tape, till I reverse engineered the 2-3 prevailing algos, then went to work. I wish I could have sent them a hand written Thank You note for making easy for me .... :-)

Ohhhh as for rumors ..... never paid attention to any of them. To the contrary: no communications w/anyone, and tv was on mute, just looking for breaking news. Most often I could see the news in the tape long before it hit the air!!!!

Best to you!!!

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 00:11 | Link to Comment Just Ice
Just Ice's picture

My post was not very well written or concise.  I literally made it on my way out the door, so not surprised you missed the gist of what I was saying.   Nothing to do with me trading...only to say that, as a speculator myself, I do find fault with certain problems caused by speculation and speculators, especially manipulation that spills over into the real world/real economy effecting the pocketbooks and wallets of non-financial persons and industries.  Sometimes it is not even manipulation but simply the activity of moving walls of money that adversely effects the economy.  Thus, speculation in the financial markets, rather than reflecting true fundamentals coming down the pike are instead trying to cause them to occur.

For example, the walls of money that drove the nasdaq to 5000 in 2000 totally disconnected that market from economic reality.  In that instance, however, the people hurt by a stock in either its rise or the fall when its bubble popped were primarily people involved in that specific stock or company.  On the other hand, when speculators drive the price of oil into a bubble, (such as the manipulation discussed in this link, http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/03/chris-cook-the-ghost-of-enron-past-explains-oil-market-manipulation.html, or this one, http://www.cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=298699), it rips off money from John Q. Public at large in order to feather the pockets of a few speculators along with a lot of middle East oil sheiks.

There should be no such thing as "speculative demand" driving the prices of food, fuel and other resources.  The financial markets were developed to accommodate/reflect the physical markets (e.g., so grains weren't unobtainable at any cost out of season and cheaper than dirt when harvest rolled in), not to dominate and drive them.   Speculators are a necessary part of such well functioning markets, assuming risk and providing liquidity as middlemen between producers and end users.

Instead, the financial industry has gotten so large and bloated with so much money and cheap ZIRP liquidity, its going around creating havoc on the real economy, from stock bubbles, to housing bubbles, to commodity bubbles, etc.  Burst bubbles, (bubbles created by speculation and speculators, in addition to those from bad policies), damage large swaths of the economy and, ultimately, its people.

The frenzied ramp in grains, with several limit moves only befitting adrenalin junkies, couple years ago (I think...not going to go look up exact timing) put some commercial hedgers (grain elevators) out of business as I recall.  Others in the oil industry were hurt in addition to airline companies in the manufactured oil ramp to $150.  (I think it was pretty clear in the congressional hearings on the matter that those prices were achieved on speculation and manipulation, nothing to do with realities of the physical markets.)   Yeah, great functioning of financial markets...get rid of the real businesses on the ground in favor of commodity funds and other speculators.

Rumors were the vehicle by which bear raids (now illegal) were conducted in the past, costing companies, and their shareholders billions in lost market capital.  They are still used in attempts to unduly influence price action with the speculative hope that initial news-jerk reaction will turn into a momentum move, will turn into a stop run, etc...to the benefit of a specific speculator which is pure b.s. since it comes at the expense of other market participants who are not involved in manipulative bad behavior.

HFT Algos are a whole other subject...irritating and, I believe, detrimental to the market overall but not something I have time to discuss right now.

Anyhoo, best to you as well.  My main point was don't be too quick to excuse traders/speculators when there's blame rightfully at their doorstep.  They may not be to blame for QEternity or ZIRP or dollar debasement but those clamoring for it, for the sake of their own greed, become accessory. 

 

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 18:48 | Link to Comment DoneThis2Long
DoneThis2Long's picture

BTW ... Rick does not trade as far as I know !!!!!! Part of his contract. Rick and Cashin are the only two left, who are worth a flying fuck . I've stopped watching any of them years ago.

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