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How The Super-Rich Avoid Paying Taxes

Tyler Durden's picture


If you're one of the 1% of Americans who control over 40% of the country's wealth, life is full of choices. Among them - how best to keep all that money away from the government? The U.S. economic system offers no shortage of loopholes allowing the ultra-rich to shortchange Uncle Sam. The following infographic explains how exactly do the super rich hide that much money from the government every year?




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Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:28 | 3248388 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

If the USA can print it's own currency, why does it need to collect taxes at all?  

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:45 | 3248433 ACP
ACP's picture

Speaking of printing money, those 3D printers are getting mighty interesting.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:03 | 3248494 unrulian
unrulian's picture

Put it in a PVC tube....where's that fucking pvc donkey when you need him?

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:33 | 3248680 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

You have to tax for two reasons:

1) ensure a way to pay the interest on the debt that is automatically incurred when the money is printed. Remember, we don't print our own money; rather, we borrow it AT INTEREST from the federal Reserve who prints it for us. It is BORROWED into existence, not just printed willy-nilly, silly!

2) you also need to create a built-in demand for the fiat money. Because what would happen if everyone stopped using it? Nobody would want dollars, except, you'd still have to pay your taxes in dollars. So you'd have to figure out a way to earn those somehow.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 00:29 | 3248786 ManOfBliss
ManOfBliss's picture

1. It could be printed willy-nilly if the government wanted it to. They simply revoke the charter for the Federal Reserve, take back control over the money creation, and manifest currency at will.

2. Correct.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 01:29 | 3248861 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

the post doesn't appear to mention that appreciated assets' capital gains are reduced to zero (cost basis becomes current market value) upon death of owner.  this allows, for instance, sam walton's heirs to get their walmart stock and never pay tax based on his very low cost basis, hold it and pass it (capital gains) tax free to their heirs.  this is why the rich so wish to repeal the estate/death tax which, although with some loopholes of its own, is the main obstacle to true dynastic wealth in the u.s.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:22 | 3249111 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Why would one have to hide or shelter money that doesn't exist...yet?

For those of genuine pedigree? Just print that shit up when needed out of the ether. Free of taxes? Fuck that! Fresh baseless fiat "money" is 100% free of "work"!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:05 | 3249214 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:11 | 3249229 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Taxation is a form of control and the 1% are the controllers.  I'm surprised they pay anything.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 11:12 | 3249317 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

Please don't use the term "the 1%". It makes you sound silly. 1% of the USA is more than 3 million people. You don't really think that the control decisions are made by 3 million people who get together in the convention room at the D.C. Hyatt.

The real tally of The Powers That Be, the true "controllers", is less than 1% of 1%.  Let's call them the .001%, and then let's stop taking orders from a handful of rich trailer trash.

Someone here needs to draw up the flow chart with the .001% at the top, their many lieutenants (Bernanke, Obama, etc) underneath them, then the layers of commissars, policy wonks, media heads, the Power shills like Krugman, Galbraith, Stiglitz, and so on all the way down to the vast phalanxes of gendarmes who are here "to Serve and Protect"--the looters, that is.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 12:19 | 3249419 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Silly?  The "1%" is just a metaphor.  The actual percentage is .00436%.  Give or take a percent.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 06:25 | 3251003 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Your flow chart would look like an Herbalife org chart.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 12:20 | 3249422 THECOMINGDEPRESSION

If everyone stopped paying taxes today, there is nothing they could do..not a thing

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:40 | 3250276 11b40
11b40's picture


Turn off the utilities, close the hospitals, suspend police & fire protection, shut the airports.....get the picture?

Nobody likes paying taxes, but most realize they are a requirement for any kind of sciety you would want to live in.  The point is, make sure those who get the most benefits pay the most back.....and that is not what we have now.

I don't know what effective rate you pay, but Romney, to pick a familiar and recent example, pays less than me.  I really don't give 2 shits about what is legal, but the fact that these wealthy pricks have had the tax laws written in their favor (by other rich pricks) is disgusting and wrong.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 20:05 | 3250438 uplicidlit
uplicidlit's picture

@11b40, "make sure those who get the most benefits pay the most back"

Using your example of Romney --- how does he get more benefit from the system by paying, for example, $5,000,000 in taxes versus someone who pays $100,000 in taxes or half of that?

Why is the RATE so relevant to you?  Perhaps look at actual tax dollars paid.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 09:25 | 3251073 11b40
11b40's picture

Are you really such a simpleton?

Tell me quick....what would your basis be?  How would you determine the tax bill for each of us?

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 00:39 | 3255114 Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

Infant Tree Sgt brilliant!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 13:39 | 3249596 Coke and Hookers
Coke and Hookers's picture

Printing money equals taxation. When you print money in a fiat system, it devalues monetary assets (pension funds, saving etc) and reduces living standards through inflation. This is a de facto asset transfer from people with savings/assets/income to the people who receive the printed money.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:06 | 3250020 Rick64
Rick64's picture

Correct. Ron Paul told Bernanke that, and Bernanke agreed.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 01:36 | 3248866 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

Doesn't the Fed just turn around and remit the interest back to the Treasury?  Sounds like a ponzi-printing-orgy that Bernie Madoff would be proud to run

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 01:37 | 3248868 Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

3. Power. By setting up a complex tax code the government can take anything they want from whomever they want by citing some obscure tax violation. Remember, Al Capone was taken down by tax violations...

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:12 | 3249117 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

bank notes have no interest rate...and....there would be no taxes to no need to work...pretty much like the fed and other bank screen jockeys/ that "work"? did they make that?

money used to be a measure of work done, value added. now that money is printed, there is no work done or value added, so why not just print it for everyone rather thanthe select few (banksters and corrupt polticial scumbags)

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 12:48 | 3249489 ChacoFunFact
ChacoFunFact's picture

Ithaca Hours Currency can be used privately but you're right -  any sales tax would have to be paid with money signed by the secretary of the treasury.  Does anybody know if Ithaca Hours Currency is redeemable in to hours of labor like time bank money (Hour Exchange Portland)?


p.s. end usury

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:21 | 3248545 seek
seek's picture

Yup, the 3D printing for guns guys, Defense Distributed, recently made a 30 round 3D printed magazine, code-named Cuomo (lol) and had it function for several hundred rounds without failure (the same can't be said for the printed lower they made earlier.)

I still think it'll be many years before they're as good as home CNC machining is (which is subtractive rather than additive like printing) but both technologies have come down so much in cost and have become so accessible that it's hard to imagine something big isn't going to come out of them eventually.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:14 | 3248643 foodstampbarry
foodstampbarry's picture


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 03:48 | 3248973 Spigot
Spigot's picture

They forgot to add: Work for your corporation making your compensation a loan to the corporation, then receive "interest" on the loan (15% tax rate on interest income) and the principle is never paid off, therefore the income stream never stops.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:20 | 3249243 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

But make sure you're ahead of investors and creditors in the bankruptcy buffet line.


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 12:03 | 3249383 akarc
akarc's picture

yeah but using a 3D printer will give you plastic money. Oh wait, what amI talking about? Never mind..........

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:10 | 3248516 schoolsout
schoolsout's picture

Not many yachts go up in value...kinda miffed at the last part.

Also, if your boat has simple accomodations such as galley, head and a bed....plenty of small boats qualify for this...not necessarily a "rich" man's avenue of "avoiding" taxes.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:21 | 3248546 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Yachts with 24k gold ballast tend to go up in value with time.  Gold doesn't rust.  It's good ballast.


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 01:26 | 3248858 Mike Cowan
Mike Cowan's picture

Gold is good ballast, isn't it?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:16 | 3249085 Seer
Seer's picture

Ready-made boating accident!

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 17:25 | 3254093 BigJim
BigJim's picture

You'd think we'd learn!

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 00:42 | 3255125 Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

"Not many yachts go up in value...kinda miffed at the last part"


They are hard assets and will go up just due to inflation, expecially the hyper kind.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:12 | 3248524 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



So that you cannot acquire enough dough through wages to get off the hamster wheel before 67YO.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 11:24 | 3249322 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

Collecting wages was never a route to financial independence. Wages are what you get when you work and create value for someone else. There are no drivers for higher wages in the west these days, any way. The corporate oligarchs will continue to arbitrage the labor cost differential between developed West and developing East.  If China gets too expensive, they move operations to Vietnam.

The best route to freedom is to work for yourself while keeping your living expenses as low as possible. Eventually, your income from productive assets surpasses your total cost of living. At that point, you're free.

Joe Dominguez' book Your Money or Your Life was especially useful in getting me off the hamster wheel.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:17 | 3248537 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

To limit upward social mobility.


Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:27 | 3248561 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

They didn't tell us ALL the ways that the super rich move their money, not all of it.  One is to give up your citizenship and move to a lower tax country.  The other which is more secreative is to be invited to institutions/banks that help to hide your money and move it for you for a fee with help from govt..  There's some more but they don't talk about that because that only goes to clients who are billionaires and connected.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 07:41 | 3252574 StandardDeviant
StandardDeviant's picture

And you know this because...?

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:28 | 3248565 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

They didn't tell us ALL the ways that the super rich move their money, not all of it.  One is to give up your citizenship and move to a lower tax country.  The other which is more secreative is to be invited to institutions/banks that help to hide your money and move it for you for a fee with help from govt..  There's some more but they don't talk about that because that only goes to clients who are billionaires and connected.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 00:55 | 3248826 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

..why does it have to collect taxes at all?


Two reasons:

 1.Perception of scarcity 

2. Controll over State & Federal funded programs, i.e. schools, colleges , church 503b, grants.

When a state decides to fight the fed, they risk the money the fed delivers. They simply have to repatriate the federal lands DC stole and start development to make up the loss.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 02:04 | 3248908 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

You forgot the main method....all of these tricks were bought for fair & square by TPTB from Congress.  There are infinite ways to scam. That's all these guys think about 24/7. 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:40 | 3249096 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

It is called slavery, the W-2 slaves are born and die on the rich's plantation.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:14 | 3249118 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

apologies...posted at wrong place:


bank notes have no interest rate...and....there would be no taxes to no need to work...pretty much like the fed and other bank screen jockeys/ that "work"? did they make that?

money used to be a measure of work done, value added. now that money is printed, there is no work done or value added, so why not just print it for everyone rather thanthe select few (banksters and corrupt political scumbags)


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:14 | 3249231 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

Firstly, the U.S. Government does not control the money supply - the Federal Reserve System does.  Secondly, even if the U.S. did issue money directly and could cover all costs of government, simply by printing, it would have to levy taxes to prevent an excessive money supply (aka inflation).  You might enjoy the Creature from Jekyll Island.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:27 | 3249255 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

The U.S. Military uses the Fed as a front.


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:46 | 3250045 Rick64
Rick64's picture

I don't agree, they would just need to keep the money supply in proportion to the population and the economy. Many would argue that they wouldn't be responsible and would print too much thereby devaluing the money, but isn't that what we have now. I don't think the results would have been any worse than the Fed. They also would be directly accountable because they wouldn't have the Fed obscuring the truth. Also they wouldn't be borrowing money so they wouldn't have to pay interest.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 08:19 | 3251036 auric1234
auric1234's picture

Secondly, even if the U.S. did issue money directly and could cover all costs of government, simply by printing

If? You just described its main activity!


Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:29 | 3248393 scottch
scottch's picture

Populist drivel.  You don't have to be super-rich to take these deductions.These are staples of the middle class, too.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:42 | 3248415 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Yes, everyone can do it. Stop whining middle class! Simply ask your employer, he will be happy to transfer your pay to a Cayman bank account.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:35 | 3248683 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Instead of bitching at the rich for not paying taxes, everyone should not pay taxes. JUST. DON'T. PAY.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:33 | 3249265 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

The rub is that most of my tax info is reported directly to the IRS.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:40 | 3249272 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

for free i will tell you the secret of the poor..earn no(reported) money, take all .gov cheese possible, and pay no income tax ever..don't tell the rich.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 12:26 | 3249440 toady
toady's picture

Since I do not have a platinum spoon in my mouth, that is how I work the system

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:24 | 3249250 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Bunga Bunga:   "Yes, everyone can do it. Stop whining middle class! Simply ask your employer, he will be happy to transfer your pay to a Cayman bank account."


Why would you ask your employer to do that? Why can't you do that on your own - open an account and send contributions yourself? In the US, we have something similar called IRA accounts.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 11:49 | 3249365 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 14:45 | 3249769 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

Employer sends your salary to a Cayman business account which you own under

xyz company for consultant fees. You pay no tax on your salary which you can then get

from account in Cayman Island when you visit once a month on vacation to pick up your cash converted to

gold bullion. You just have to have a salary big enough to make it worth the expense vs. taxes.


Doesn't work for me but might for some of you swells.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:17 | 3249236 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

Some of these dodges could be employed by the not so wealthy - but, they would not save middle class tax payers enough to warrant the effort.  These dodges are of, by, and for the rich - period.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:19 | 3249239 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Yes, many's the time my Grandpa thought about sheltering that 65 El Camino in a trust.


Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:30 | 3248394 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



or just buy the lawmakers.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:35 | 3248398 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

Most of those work only for countries that do not possess (effective) worldwide jurisdiction - such as the United States.  The only thing missing in the United States is the proper motivation to forcibly nullify any advantages of jurisdiction.

As for the rest, that rests with the willingness to close loopholes - which requires heavy, sustained pressure - and to ensure that creative accounting for taxes has no use that is legal.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:33 | 3248400 gimli
gimli's picture

Has everyone checked out Elizabeth Warren's refreshing questions?

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:36 | 3248408 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I hear she's been very depressed lately.  Probably suicidal.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:46 | 3248421 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Ha! Ha! Ha! You caught that one before me Rand! Yes, she is a classic case of a depressed middle aged woman coming unglued. Her depression will soon turn to thoughts of suicide and the ready availability of guns may prompt her to take a walk in the park at night and shoot herself in the head Twice.

As Stalin was so poud of saying "No person, no problem". And who would ever accuse the American power establishment of emulating Stalin [the man of steel]. Obama has something in common with Stalin, they both spend part of their evenings going over the days kill list and approving who shall die in the coming 24 hours. Difference is Obama does it to spread freedom, Stalin did it to cleanse the communist system of wreckers and spies.  Though Stalin had no drones, Obama the Nobel Peace Prize winner does, he gets clean kills, while Stalin's NKVD took out the enemies of the state at close quarters.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:50 | 3248451 gimli
gimli's picture

True thoughts, and Taibbi isn't helping her life expectency:

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:43 | 3248603 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

Taibbi leaps on populist drivel too quickly at times. This is one of them.

Warren is a merely a farce soon to be tragedy.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:54 | 3248719 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

"Taibbi leaps on populist drivel..."

"Warren is a merely a farce..."

Ah... so then,

with your eye so on the ball,

surely you must admit, our collective hubris-driven-bullshit might be more of a problem than Taibbi and Warren?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:23 | 3249089 Seer
Seer's picture

Hey, what do you expect from a clown on acid?  (If ever there's a name crying out for recognition to not be take seriously, this is it.)

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:51 | 3250300 11b40
11b40's picture

Yes, but I will admit to a mental chuckle everytime I think about that moniker.  It is a funny thought.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:54 | 3248466 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

I'll take Ice picks for 200, Alexiekov.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:39 | 3248693 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Meh. You guys have it all wrong. Princess Liawatha is controlled opposition, pure and simple. She's all bark, and no bite.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 19:01 | 3250315 11b40
11b40's picture

Time will tell, but it miught take many performances like the one last week to force the media to get on this.....and once put into layman's terms and publicized, Congress and regulators may be forced to act.  Frankly, I am pretty amazed that MSNBC's evening line-up has been as 'on it' as they have lately.  Fox...not so much, and CNBC, not at all.

Also, someone noted n an earlier thread (CDAD?), that with the sequester and budget issues looming, setting up a potential market swoon, a rift between Washington and Wall St. could develop.  It has happened before.  Wall St may finance much of the political class, but voters keep them coming back to office.  If they start waking up in large numbers, anything can happen.  Some of hese politicians would throw their whole families under the bus to stay on the DC gravy train.  If the winds start blowing in another direction, they will set their sails on a new course.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 09:44 | 3249191 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture


Jack Burton,


Obama does it to "spread freedom"?

Some of us had begun to think he also does it to

"cleanse the __ (fill in the blank) system of (alleged) wreckers and spies" (or to use the recent parlance, "evil-doers").

I daresay though, if anyone truly believes Obama is "spreading freedom", either in actuality or intent,  they are, to put it mildly, misinformed.



Sat, 02/16/2013 - 12:57 | 3249510 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

That remark was obvious SARC! Or at least I thought it was.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:29 | 3249257 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Jack Burton:   "Obama has something in common with Stalin, they both spend part of their evenings going over the days kill list and approving who shall die in the coming 24 hours. Difference is Obama does it to spread freedom, Stalin did it to cleanse the communist system of wreckers and spies. "


I beg to differ with that statement. No one in power does things for the freedom of others. It is to for themselves, their party and ideology. A person seeking true freedom for others is putting themselves out of a job.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 12:59 | 3249514 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Again, I thought that remark, by it's context, would be such obvious SARC. The US power elite has turned the word" freedom" on it's head to mean "submission to US foreign policy and corporate economic interests."

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:45 | 3248432 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Careless Whisper has already told her "whatever you do...don't fly."

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:03 | 3248493 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



She may be an interesting one to watch.  I don't see her as being corruptible (not easily at least) and I have a feeling she may have hedged properly against scandal.

She might drag oversight kicking and screaming into its proper roll, possibly in time for it to matter.


or the depression will overcome her mild demeanor and she'll light up the joint in a blaze of automatic weapon glory live on CSPAN.


Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:28 | 3248671 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

small plane crash - the solution for most intractable 'problems'

long history - Various forieign presidents, US senators and the occasional witness or two.....

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:39 | 3248690 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



I know. I know it.

Just suspending disbelief.  I guess she'll just go spend time with family and avoid getting Wellstoned.

+prop engine planes

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 11:49 | 3249357 DTCC 1999
DTCC 1999's picture

What may be the same technology has been used since at least 10/13/10 in local looking LE cruisers of some areas, as an intimidation tactic to the driver, by rendering the car engine non-responsive.

As you pass the "officer" might turn his head away from you, press a button (or switch) above the mid-point of his driver window as you pass on that side, your RPM's will go way up and pressing the gas does nothing. The car starts right back up again after.

My strong feeling is that it is a branch operating independently of the Orangetown PD in NY (fusion centers). The normal police dept officers are great; they treat the residents like human beings.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:32 | 3248576 nmewn
nmewn's picture

It's gonna take a little bit more than a blue-eyed, first time ever female Cherokee Harvard professor asking a few simple questions to swing me over to her side.

But for now...the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 02:14 | 3248919 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

That's pretty strong praise coming from the most hard-nosed fella on ZH.  Not to bust your cover or anything...

Whatever she does will be watched closely, we can be assured.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 09:01 | 3249148 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...we should watch her closely Rocky. Many times she says one thing that is at severe variance with something else she has said.

It was she who introduced the statist concept of "You didn't build that." into our popular lexicon, at a fundraiser when she was running for her senate seat. Everyone thinks this quote is an Obama original, it is not.

It was Warren.

I say to all my brothers and sisters standing to the left of me, beware...L'ETAT C'EST A MOI...has never had more meaning than it does in our age, right now.

Lets ALL not be fooled again ;-)

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 12:26 | 3249441 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You're too smart to fall for that one.  I am fully aware that she was the original author of the concept that entrepreneurs didn't build infrastructure.  The phrase was never about them not building their own businesses.   Once again a phrase taken out of context was turned into a sound-bite for the benefit of an opponent.   Mitt's percentage of those who are "takers" was correct as well!  That's what's wrong with the media in general, not the personalities nor their ideas.  When intelligent people, like you, take those sound-bites and regurgitate them it is a reflection on you.  I hold you to higher standards.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 14:57 | 3249783 nmewn
nmewn's picture

We're not going to fight over this Rocky...but here it is, in context.

Her premise is false in my opinion.

How much is "a hunk" of money in her opinion?

She implies that the owner(s) of that factory or business paid no taxes for the roads to haul their stuff around on or the education (such as it is) of the worker.

In a "progressive" tax system, they most certainly did...some would say way above their "fair share". Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of the influence of wealth on officials but creating more officials to re-distribute someone elses wealth seems counterproductive to wealth creation itself.

We both know we're middle class dogs in this fight...we just see it different.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 09:00 | 3249147 Room 101
Room 101's picture

So Sen. Faux-a-hontas asked some questions.  So what? I guess in maybe a decade we can look forward to her maybe getting a bit terse?  And then maybe ten years later she'll get agitated?  

Don't break out the party favors yet.  She's most likely just another muppet whose purpose is to keep the proles entertained.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:33 | 3248403 SillySalesmanQu...
SillySalesmanQuestion's picture

I would say that 21 trillion in offshore havens is a VERY conservative estimate.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:49 | 3248442 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

well maybe the Senate could ask Treasury Secretary Jack Lew. He was doing one of these Cayman Island things: the last guy made a few bad entries. this one seems to have been the head of a veritable "tax avoidance syndicate." glad to see the Administration is sending the right message of course...

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:34 | 3248404 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

I have no problem wit the rich.I have a problem with the firewall they have built with the government to prevent me from becoming rich too.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:38 | 3248410 Theos
Theos's picture



We're fucked.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:42 | 3248417 q99x2
q99x2's picture

How the non-rich don't pay taxes.

1) start a corporation.

2) lose money for the first 3 years.

3) go out of business

4) start a corporation.

5) lose money for the first 3 years.

6) go out of business

7) and so on.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:31 | 3249262 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

1) start a corporation

2) take bonus

3) go public

4) take bonus

5) drive up stock price with borrowed money

6) take bonus

7) drive company into the dirt

8) take bonus

9) go private

10) take bonus

11) repeat ad nauseam

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:51 | 3248453 bigboy
bigboy's picture

And these are all legal. How can they be considered "lost" when the rules allow for it?

What's the problem with this again?

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:53 | 3248457 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Where the wealthy get a nice break over the wage earner is the much lower capital gians tax versus the earned income tax rate. This is done to increase investment and spur economic growth. If such is the case, then there should be no capital gains tax at all, as this would spur investment and business expansion and more jobs.

A good tax lawyer can get you out of most taxes, though at a very hefty legal fee. I heard once the figure for how many billions of dollars a year Americans spend just on tax preperation and avoidance. I forgot the number, but it is in the many, mnay billions of dollars. Pure madness to have a tax system that cost billions to comply with. No mere mortal can understand the tax code. It is so huge that only an army of lawyers and accountants can fully use it to advantage. Something the wage earner has no hope of being able to afford. Thus the wealthy invest a heft sum to comply with the tax laws, but using the code to advantage can avoid much of their tax obligations.

We borrow most of the trillion dollar a year military and national security state budget, Everyone wants it, but few want to pay for it.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:58 | 3248626 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



Two things:

1). tax avoidance is keeping as much income as possible from exposure to taxation through cloaking the income as some kind of spending or as something other than income.  Clearly an ongoing jobs bill to employ minions who'll toil through pages and pages of tax policy to find anything that will help cloak or trans-substantiate their client's income into something technically off the radar of the IRS.

2.) the US Government does not need tax revenue to function.  It will acquire dollars sufficient to pay its "bills" and there will be a "debt" for those dollars.  But, that "spending" is not contingent on any potential tax receipts.  

Taxation is simply a contributing factor of mitigated wealth accumulation cleverly disguised as something else.  



Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:53 | 3248459 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Corruption = delegitimization of authority

Corruption = not even mentioned in State of the Union

We are a nation of assassins and thieves at the top.  Hedge accordingly.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:34 | 3249095 Seer
Seer's picture

"We are a nation of assassins and thieves at the top.  Hedge accordingly."

This could be said for any country at any time...  As I told my wife, who is from the Philippines and thought it corrupt there, where the most money/wealth is is where it is most corrupt, and in the US it's just so polished that the corruption looks legit.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 21:57 | 3248474 nah
nah's picture

and make more fuckin' money

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:09 | 3248512 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



21 trill hidden offshore?

Fuhhhhhck Me, Who Run Barter Town?

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:11 | 3248521 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"The U.S. economic system offers no shortage of loopholes allowing the ultra-rich to shortchange Uncle Sam."


It got it's taxes at earning.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:27 | 3248560 Black Markets
Black Markets's picture

I don't see any problems here?

These are legal accounting entries open to anybody.
(I particularly like the "donate a statue" anecdote)

And as for the "downtrodden wage earner" complaints... Get a fucking education and reapply for a PROPER JOB or shut the fuck up and accept the consequences of choosing the bone idle path.

I'm tired of hearing about work shy Joe Nobodys who think the world owes them an equal cut of the pie. Man up dipshit. Get your own fucking pie.

You only have two options in life:

1). Play the hand you are dealt to the best of your abilities.
2). Don't

Nothing more pathetic than reading someone bitch about how unfair and corrupt society is because they are not heir to the throne of Monte Carlo.

The world doesn't owe you the steam off your own shit. If you can't satisfy your own ambitions then it is you the individual who is the failure and not the world. The world hasn't failed you, it owes you nothing. You enter with nothing and you leave with nothing your only power here is to push stuff around.

Your ambitions are your own, if you can't satisfy them then it is you that has the problem. The rest of the world doesn't care if you we're never even here.

A lot of folk need to start taking responsibility and taking control of their lives, you're not a passenger here, you're here to compete. Your life will settle out at the level at which you can compete with others.

If you feel like you underachieved then raise your game. Don't cry foul, because nobody cares if you got dealt a shit hand. Nobody. Because everyone knows you can still win with a shit hand.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:36 | 3248583 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture





Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:37 | 3248586 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

Ok so you would not see any issues with a flat tax then..right?

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:52 | 3248618 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I don't see any issue with no taxes actually. I can't believe i got down arrowed on the Jack Lew thing. I mean "couldn't we avoid the whole tax thingy if none of us paid them Mr. Treasury Secretary designate?" That would be my question. "then it's not illegal." or at least "not illegal cuz everyone is doing it ala Greece and the Greeks." fine..."you can have a phone tax." but that's only for the 1-900 numbers.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:15 | 3249082 Black Markets
Black Markets's picture

I'm all for a flat tax system.

Set it at 20%, for corporations, individuals, everyone.

It would increase the velocity of money.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 02:17 | 3248922 aerojet
aerojet's picture

I don't think you're at all in touch with reality for most people.  I hear you, but I also know what I see--nepotism and favoritism.  I used to do the whole "up my game" thing, but you exhaust yourself with no gains.  I tried being an entrepreneur.  You know what I learned?  That winning in that game is one in ten million, almost the same odds as playing the lottery.  I'm not complaining, I'm only telling you that the game is rigged against you in a big way.  The unbalance of wealth around the world has reached unreal proportions and it is a major problem for anyone with ambitions of being more than nothing.  Maybe in two generations things will change, but upward mobility is long gone right now.

My only real option right now would be to try and raise an army and become a buccaneer.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 06:23 | 3249056 Black Markets
Black Markets's picture

I think you need to accept reality. If I look at any rich list since 2001 most of the people on it are self made. You need to accept your abilities are more average than you think, and that you most likely don't have what it takes to displace the incumbent rich.

This is nothing to be ashamed of, to compete with the incumbent 1% you need abilities in the top 0.1% percentile. You simply don't have them, but 100,000 Americans do.

Just play the hand you are dealt and accept that not everybody can control a Fortune 500 company. Those that do reach such heights do so in large part because there were in the right place at the right time. They got dealt a good hand and they played it strongly.

If you want a good hand you have to go to the places where they are dealt (usually where rich people are) and wait for the right time, but there is no guarantee you will ever get one.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:31 | 3249093 Setarcos
Setarcos's picture

Of course it helps a lot if you are a sociopath who does not give a stiff shit about anyone else.

That is part of the reality too, e.g. to off-shore manufacture to maximize personal gain, regardless of social costs.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:53 | 3249104 Seer
Seer's picture

"Just play the hand you are dealt and accept that not everybody can control a Fortune 500 company. Those that do reach such heights do so in large part because there were in the right place at the right time. They got dealt a good hand and they played it strongly."

I have no desire to control a Fortune 500 company.  I have no desire to be "rich."

Am I a loser, someone without "ambition?"  No.

I see it like this... Things are a changing, and what passes for "wealth" today isn't likely going to pass for it tomorrow.  And the bigger you are the harder you fall.  Most of the so-called "rich" will have their legs taken out from under them: either the paradigm shift will kill their revenue streams, of the serfs will seek out retribution.  I am not promoting anything here, just stating it like I see it all unfolding (human nature being human nature).

Much of the reason why the "rich" are "rich" is because of this carrot-and-stick system they've built up (and no, I don't believe that there's as many "self-mades" out there that you suggest there is).

"If you want a good hand you have to go to the places where they are dealt (usually where rich people are) and wait for the right time, but there is no guarantee you will ever get one."

It's all relative.  I don't believe that their "hands" are necessarily "good."  Perhaps in this system, but this system is rapidly falling apart.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 04:23 | 3248999 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

"If you feel like you underachieved then raise your game."

You might find you'd be better off "selecting better-connected parents".

The seriously wealthy didn't get there by working harder than everyone else - I know (and we ALL know) the hard workers who never get ahead.

Connections, sunbeam - or 99% dumb luck.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 06:44 | 3249066 Black Markets
Black Markets's picture

Did you even read my post?

Yes, some people get dealt a better hand than you.

But guess what? The pack isn't full of aces.

If your parents are a couple of losers then it's down to you to overcome that. It is not down to the "well connected folk" who live across town.

They don't give a shit if you never existed. They have their own lives to worry about. Nobody is responsible for you other than yourself.

People need to accept the hand they are dealt and figure out how to maximise it. Sitting about bitching about the guy with a great start in life is waste of your time.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:04 | 3249112 Seer
Seer's picture

"People need to accept the hand they are dealt and figure out how to maximise it. Sitting about bitching about the guy with a great start in life is waste of your time."

I agree.

Better, however, is to NOT run around comparing one's self to others.  BE what you want because it's what you want to be, not because it's what someone else is (which is the game that the system wants you to play).

Like I say, if you don't like "them" then don't BE "them."

People need to keep in mind that much of what is perceived about the "rich" is merely marketing (again, this is what the system wants).  The "rich" can readily be "poor," they can be messed up with insecurities.  "Their" world comes complete with plenty of stress, social pressures of being more, fear of falling down the "most wealthy" list etc..

I'm maximizing life.  And, there's nothing like actually DOING real stuff (rather than being compelled to do photo-op stuff) to actually FEEL life.

Tip: caution about seeking "rich" in cities, as in the future when walking the streets of those cities you'll want to be careful of the "rich" hurling themselves from their high places when the real world collides with their fabricated one.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:29 | 3249258 Doctor Faustus
Doctor Faustus's picture

Absolutely correct. It's not the cards you're dealt, but how you play them.

But then, who would the Jew-bashers and conspiricy folks blame?

Because it's always someone elses' fault.  

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 20:08 | 3250444 mkkby
mkkby's picture

What asswipes down arrowed this?  We got a bunch of Obama phone free shit losers here on ZH?

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:28 | 3248566 seek
seek's picture

This assessment conveniently ignores that every investment held in USD is devaluing at ~10% per annum, due to the stealth tax collected by the US. Including that $21T offshore.

Kind of interesting that the devaluation of the offshore money works out to $2.1T or so, mighty close to the deficit amounts, no?

Our country is being funded through asset taxes that no one notices.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:38 | 3248588 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

In non-related news, Jesse Jackson Jr's 'second home' just sank, local fishermen are reported to be seen pulling fur capes and Michael Jackson memrobillia from their nets all day.


Fri, 02/15/2013 - 22:39 | 3248590 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Why all the bitching about the 1% when there are a good 60% who don't pay fucking taxes either and in fact are a DRAIN on those who do?

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:05 | 3248631 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thank you.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:28 | 3248672 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

No thank you. Why do you focus on the slobs on welfare when your government officials are some of the top paid assholes on earth? Their entitlements exceed welfare costs alone. Do the math.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:40 | 3248694 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The reason I focus on the slobs on welfare is, without the slobs on state welfare, we wouldn't have welfare slobs giving out state welfare like it was theirs to give.

Think about it ;-)

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 00:38 | 3248799 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Which is worse? The millionaire drug dealer or his client- addict who steals a loaf of bread to eat?



ps. I did not downvote you.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 02:08 | 3248911 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

The thief; drugs shouldn't be illegal, but theft should.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:05 | 3249113 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The addict/thief freely chose his path in life. He chose to spend all his money on drugs and steal his food from an innocent third party.

PS...I rarely down vote anyone ;-)

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 20:19 | 3250455 mkkby
mkkby's picture

That's right.  And let's not allow apologists say addicts are only stealing bread to survive, like there's something noble about that.
They are robbing, murdering and kidnapping people to get what they desire.  Reserve a bullet for them.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 11:49 | 3249353 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Which is better?  Treating the symptoms or treating the disease?  

Treating symptoms never cures a disease.  Access to easy money corrupts everyone granted access to it.  This is the disease. Treat the disease of money conjuring, make money honest, and the parasites get decimated - up and down the chain. 

This country was doing well economically - and well in societal fairness - prior to the establshment of the Federal Reserve system and the Federal Income tax in 1913.

Fiat Empire -

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 14:00 | 3249654 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

For what it's worth, I include that demographic in the sum total of the aforementioned 60%.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:20 | 3248657 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



Uh, chances are someone that makes so little as to not be subject to Federal Income Tax (that's what you mean, right) actually produce for someone in the 1%.


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 00:14 | 3248767 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Because those two phenomena are anything but independent, for one.

If you don't think those 60% pay sales taxes with every dollar they earn, you're out of your fucking mind.

Which one of these two groups has lobbyists insuring that DC stays corrupt in their favor in perpetuity?

Go suck Trump's shriveled excuse for a dick, sycophantic apologist.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 00:24 | 3248777 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



Thank you.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 20:24 | 3250465 mkkby
mkkby's picture

11 fuck tards thought this was a good argument?  So what if they pay sales tax.  The got the money free from uncle sugar.  The tax is just a small give back.

Here shit head, I'll give you $1000 free. Go ahead and complain that I take a little back so it's only 900 free.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:20 | 3249121 Seer
Seer's picture

Great idea, I hadn't thought ot this before, to create an even larger pool of folks to toss into the divide-and-conquer hopper...

We're a fucking drain on the fucking planet and one day the planet will send us all down the drain!

I'm tired of those who think that they're special "contributors."  Really?  How so?  How many folks are merely just another in the chain of pushing the unsustainable?

This falls under the "working harder gets you further" B.S..  It's "working SMARTER" that gets you "there."  That "smarter," if gauged by the real measuring stick of nature, is about applying the least amount of energy to acquire the most energy.

I think that no one should be paying any "taxes" to some far off "centralized govt."  I think that stripping it all away will end up with us tossing most of the stupid stuff that we engage ourselves in that are antithetical to nature's conservation-of-energy model.  No, I KNOW that this will be the outcome: physics guarantees it.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 20:31 | 3250473 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Seer or village idiot?  I'm not sure.

The doomsday conservation of energy tirade is shrill and tiring.  Shrill because there's no urgency.  Tiring because it's been out there for decades, and you repeat and repeat on every thread.

Living like the sky is falling when it's not is a life wasted.  Try prophesying something else.  We're all bored.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 11:29 | 3249330 OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture

I think arguing about who's account taxes are paid from is not very productive.  Ultimately all taxes get passed on to the retail consumer of goods and services regardless of who cuts a check to the government.  It's the hidden, ubiquitous nature of the system, and how that is exploited to play imaginary groups against each other that offends me.  The ignorant bottom half think they are getting something for nothing - the ignorant top half think they are so put upon.

Very few look at the evidence and realize that we're ALL (well, almost all) getting screwed.  The handful that aren't getting screwed look at the rest of us as just so much livestock - on their farm.  And on their farm some of the livestock gets sheared, some of the livestock pulls the plow, but they all end up in the stewpot eventually.

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:20 | 3248655 FrankIvy
FrankIvy's picture



This is the usual Marxist BS.  I don't like the uber-wealthy, don't like the tax system, and don't like the elites running this big show, but this article clouds what should be a clear issue by conflating salary and investment income.

Specifically, go look up John Edwards tax info from when he ran.  You'll see he made 12 million one year, and paid about 4 million in taxes.  Made 15 million, paid 5, and so on. 

If the 99% that own 60% of the wealth of the U.S. are unhappy with "loopholes," then turn off the TV, educate yourself, and change the system.





Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:30 | 3249130 Seer
Seer's picture

Change the system?  That's a knee-slapper!

I don't want to "change" the system, I want it to go away.  And, I don't have to "wish" for this because it's guaranteed to happen.

People need to stop "asking" and start "doing."  And if you're smart (work smarter, NOT harder) you'll figure out how you can best perpetuate your "doing" (today's "rich" have had a template for doing this, but it is locked to a bad premise, which is starting to become unraveled).

It doesn't matter how much or how little we "tax" ourselves.  Nature already tells us we're way beyond sustainable.  Our "system's" unsustainability has nothing to do with tax codes, with wealthy and poor.

"turn off the TV, educate yourself" and BE your own "system" (if it's really worth a shit it'll continue to serve you; and if it's really good then others will emulate it).

Fri, 02/15/2013 - 23:59 | 3248733 torabora
torabora's picture

Even the petit rich do it...I worked for slave wages for a roofer who would fudge the materials list 10% and use the extras to do cash jobs on weekends. He'd pay the whole crew in cash too sometimes. Then he'd go bankrupt every 7 years and restart his new company with all the shit he stole from his old company and burned the insurance for. Wash rinse repeat. One thing I'll say about him, is that he works hard for the money he steals.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 02:04 | 3248910 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

I'm sure his stalwart citizenship made for some really fine attention to detail and building codes too.

The crew did the work.


Sat, 02/16/2013 - 00:08 | 3248754 Decimus Lunius ...
Decimus Lunius Luvenalis's picture

I didn't see the rack up $100k in student debt, buy a shit degree that provides no practictable skill, pay it off for 25 years and write off the interest.  "Brought to you by" 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 00:08 | 3248755 Decimus Lunius ...
Decimus Lunius Luvenalis's picture

I didn't see the rack up $100k in student debt, buy a shit degree that provides no practictable skill, pay it off for 25 years and write off the interest.  "Brought to you by" 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 03:25 | 3248965 dunce
dunce's picture

I am no tax expert but you should be sure that you know the exact difference between tax "exclusions" and "deductions". Still it is often a good idea in estate planning to give money away while you are alive. It also has an advantage of being private. Heirs in a will know exactly who got what and you might rather that they did not by transfers outside of the will and the trust.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:50 | 3249292 DOT
DOT's picture

Re-hypothocate and give it away. Gifts are private until they are not and the IRS caps tax free transfers at $10K.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:03 | 3249075 Toomuch
Toomuch's picture

Individual consumers unwittingly pay huge taxes, which are largely hidden in the prices of goods and services. Government discreetly collects the tax by inflating the costs of goods and services using a variety of so called taxpayers in the supply chain. The great thing is that these third party tax collectors have no idea how they are being used and often believe that they pay their fair share of taxation in the process. When these third party tax collectors find legal ways to avoid forwarding sufficient consumers' money as desired, government gets really annoyed. It could, of course, simply avoid unreliable third party tax collectors by simply taxing retail sales directly to the full amount necessary, but this would expose the true cost of government to every voter, and that is evidently a step too far politically.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 07:17 | 3249080 falak pema
falak pema's picture

A case in point : The fate of Russian slush money makes Cyprus the node of Euro bank panics :

Can tiny Cyprus bring down Greece and contribute to bringing down world Banking?

The TRoika examine this situation currently.

La troïka calcule les conséquences d'une faillite de Chypre, selon la presse

And it all hinges around the Cyrpus government allowing transparency to operate relative to a Russian fed bank that white washes Oligarchy money. Germany wants full exposure of bank and the government of Cyprus says "niet"!

That in a nutshell is what the equity tranche of Oligarchy world is telling the banking world, epicenter of the crisis : "Not with my marbles you lousy servants of my fortune who now make more bonuses than I make on the side via government scams. Go make your margins on taxpayer money like a good boy and forget about MY toys!"

Haha, when thieves fall out as the cake goes rotten! 

And, its now being discussed in the G20 meeting : Initiative au G20 pour l'imposition des multinationales

All heads of Euro governments (Germany, France, UK!), insist that multinationals pay more taxes! 

Looks like the tug of war between statist shills and Greenspan's type mulitnational elitist shills, scions of WS, is hotting up!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:29 | 3249256 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Can we just give them Poland again and call it even?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:54 | 3249293 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Yea!!! "Peace in our time" and Chamberlain chimes!

For Poland we will need that they, the Oligarchs, play Wagner again! 

As WB7 so eloquently photopaints : Remember Guernica. For Bohemia and Moravia lost the next moveable  feast was in Spain stuka'd! Then Poland.

That would mean today : Mali/Sahel, Syria/Lebanon/Egypt/Yemen/Bahrein... and then Iran! Thats the new Gordian knot.

Unless the Chinese preempt and bring Pearl Harbour reversed as forward agenda on Eastern front. 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:47 | 3249141 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Non-profit charitable Foundations.

Anyone can do it.

Get paid to give some money away.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 14:43 | 3249758 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Start a religion. If Marx had any smarts, he would have marketed his ideas as religious. Today, half the Americans would be Marxists and would even fight wars in his name.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:02 | 3249794 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture


Get paid to give someone else's money away.


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