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Milton Friedman On The Unholy Coalitions Of The Minimum Wage

Tyler Durden's picture




 

This week we were told that, by the magic of a non-deficit-increasing wave of our President's hand, the minimum wage should be increased to $9 (a 24% rise from the current $7.25 federal minimum wage) and anchored to inflation going forward. The rabbit-holes of whether this is a good or bad thing run deep and in very different directions. However, in three short minutes, Milton Friedman provides some critically clarifying truthiness on the unholy coalitions between 'do-gooders', 'special interests', 'trade unions', and the vicious circle that this non-market-based decision will create. "Do-Gooders believe passing a law saying nobody shall get less than [a minimum wage] is helping poor people (who need the money). You're doing nothing of the kind. What you're doing is to ensure that people whose skills do not justify that wage will be unemployed." It is no accident that youth unemployment is almost double the overall unemployment rate. We never learn... and as Friedman concludes, "it is the exact people who the do-gooders are trying to help that are hurt the most - the poorest!"

 

 

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Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:17 | 3249821 Tom Brady
Tom Brady's picture

Friedman is a legend.  Obama is a worthless cocksucker.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:19 | 3249824 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Obama may have to address the Supreme court on this lawsuit. The Supremes rule on Tuesday!

President Harrison J. Bounel

February 15, 2013 by Bob Livingston

Who is Harrison J. Bounel? According to the 2009 tax return submitted by President Barack Obama, he’s the President of the United States. All nine U.S. Supreme Court Justices are scheduled to discuss this anomaly today.

The case in question is Edward Noonan, et al v. Deborah Bowen, California Secretary of State, and the Justices are finally looking at it thanks to the dogged determination of Orly Taitz. The case calls into question many of the documents Obama (Bounel, Soetoro, Soebarkah, etc.) has used and/or released as authentic since he came on the national scene. The case contends that the documents — birth certificate, Social Security number, Selective Service registration, etc. — are fakes or forgeries. If that’s the case, Obama should not have been on the California ballot in 2008 and, therefore, should not have received the State’s electoral votes.

Four of the nine Justices must vote to move the case forward. We’ll see.

Meantime, on Feb. 4, Kathleen O’Leary, presiding judge of the 4th District Court of Appeal, reinstated the appeal of Taitz v. Obama et al filed by Taitz when she ran for Senate. That case involves evidence of 1.5 million invalid voter registrations in the State of California. The appeal also involves Obama’s lack of legitimacy to hold the office of President based on his forged IDs, stolen Connecticut Social Security number, the fact the last name he’s using is not legally his and his fraudulent claim to be the U.S. citizen.

Evidence in the case includes:

  • A certified copy of the passport records of Obama’s mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, showing her son’s legal last name to be Soebarkah, not Obama.

     

  • Obama’s school records from Indonesia, showing his citizenship to be Indonesian.

     

  • Sworn affidavits of top law enforcement experts and investigators, showing Obama’s birth certificate and Selective Service certificate are forgeries and that the Social Security number used by Obama on his 2009 tax returns as posted on WhiteHouse.gov was fraudulent. (The SSN failed when checked through both E-Verify and the Social Security Number Verification Service.)

On another legal front, Obama defaulted in the case of Grinols et al v. Obama et al on Jan. 30 when he failed to file a response within 21 days of being served notice of the suit. This case also involves Obama’s phony SSN.

The suit states:

[I]nvestigator Albert Hendershot found in the database ofhttp://www.acxiom.com/identity-solutions/acxiom-identity-batch-solutions/ the name of the individual whose Social Security Obama is using. Acxciom-batch-solutions showed (Exhibit 1) that Harry J Bounel with the same Social Security number xxx-xx-4425 at 5046 S Greenwood Ave in Chicago, home address of Barack Obama, Database shows Bounel with the same address and Social Security number as Barack Obama himself. According to the databases last changes to the information on Harrison (Harry) J Bounel were made in and around November 2009 by Michelle Obama, who is listed as Bounel’s relative. Database changes can involve entering the information or deletion of information. It appears that changes made by relative Michelle Obama included deletion of information, which was done at a time when Taitz brought to Federal court in the Central District of California before Judge David O. Carter a case of election challenge by her client, former U.S. ambassador Dr. Alan Keyes and 40 state Representatives and high ranked members of the U.S. Military.

Recently obtained results of the 1940 census, Exhibit 2, provided the last missing link, link (sic) between Harry J. Bounel and the date of birth of 1890. Exhibit 2 shows the printout of the U.S. census, showing Harry J Bounel, immigrant from Russia, residing at 915 Daly Ave, Bronx, NY, age 50 during the 1940 census, meaning he was born in 1890, as shown in the affidavit of Investigators Daniels and Sankey.

There is a pattern of Obstruction of Justice and tampering with the official records and falsification/forgery of the official records related to Obama. This happens in particular when [George W.] Bush employees leave their positions and are replaced by Obama appointees.

Taitz has asked for expedited default judgment and post judgment discovery in this case out of fear that any records on hand at the Social Security office will be destroyed when George W. Bush-appointed Commissioner Michael Astrue leaves office in February. Records that might have proven Obama’s Selective Service registration was a forgery were destroyed in 2009 after Bush-appointed Selective Service Director William Chatfield resigned, Taitz alleges.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:25 | 3249845 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

we know Obama is a fraud, but W Bush was born in America, so how do you explain that?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:48 | 3249930 Brixton Guns
Brixton Guns's picture

Apparently you can't read.  The lawsuit names Slick Barry as defendant, not W.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:41 | 3250039 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

both of them butt humped the constitution. al capone wasn't born in america either was he? i don't know, point being i guess it doesnt matter

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:06 | 3250074 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

 

 

I have it on good authority ... from a member of Bill 'Evil' Belichick's staff ... that New England Patriots' quaterback Tom Brady is really locked up in a prison cell in Pyongyang and that the quarterback everyone sees during Patriots' games is a North Korean-made robot.

 

I have similar inside information that the real George W. Bush is in the cell next to Brady's in Pyongyang and that the president seen on TV was also a North Korean-made robot.

 

Quote: "No complaining about robot! Verry excellent president for a robot! Like to see your robot do any better!" Un-quote.

 

A cord runs down these robots' legs to a controller that is out of the line of sight.

 

I have also heard rumors that singer Aimee Mann was also replaced by a robot, no confirmation ...

 

As for Obama .... he he he!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 19:13 | 3250344 Cow
Cow's picture

weak attempt to deflect

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 20:08 | 3251987 caconhma
caconhma's picture

What do Obama, Clinton, GWB, Ronald Reagan, and Milton Friedman have in common? They are all liars and fraudsters:

·         Nobody, except America rulers, really knows who Obama is. But the man has a mission to ruin America to a point of no return. He is American Gorbachev.

·         Ronald Reagan and Milton Friedman were shills.  They were all for a free-market system and liberty from excessive government. But it was just a show. Their actions were quite different

o   Reagan was promoting financial market manipulations with “the Plunge Protection Team”, leverage buyouts, insider trading, runaway budget deficits

o    It was Reagan who appointed Alan Greenspan whose understanding of a free-market was somewhat perverted, i.e., financial markets must be free from fraud and thievery prosecutions

o   Ronald Reagan has killed the Saving & Loan industry removing the last competition to the banking sector

o   It was the Reagan amnesty for illegal immigrants

o   As for Milton Friedman, he was for free-market economy functioning under control and guidance of the FED. He spent all his live trying to justify FED actions and make FED more “efficient”

·         There is absolutely no need to discuss Bill Clinton honesty and integrity

 

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 04:16 | 3252505 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

No, he can read alright - and think, something you aren't doing, nore your 27 up votes.

The problem is bigger than Obama.

Bush, McCain, Obama, Romney - they are mere chess pieces - and all of the same color.

Big Finance Capital is running the show through their various puppets. 

Obama is trash, but so is Romney, bush and anyone else Big Finance Capital bankrolls to lie to the people and f* them up.  So why not focus on the root cause instead of puppets?

Because your priorities are wrong.

Please fix them - it is the only chance we have.  Arrogance that doesn't allow continuous improvement is anopther big problem.

Debt Money Tyranny

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4768883/debtmoneytyranny-6-1-pdf-60k?tr=77

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 04:53 | 3252523 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Minimum wage is peanuts and a side show compared to Debt Money Tyranny

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4768883/debtmoneytyranny-6-1-pdf-60k?tr=77

Why do we waste our time discussin the small potatoes instead of the elephant in the middle of the room?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:12 | 3249983 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

Manchurian

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:37 | 3250030 Monedas
Monedas's picture

Obama IS a fraud .... but he was born in American .... but, the truth of his birth is worse .... than just being born abroad !      www.obamasrealfather.com

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:53 | 3250052 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

either way his real mother must have been a Kardashian

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 06:38 | 3251012 Stock Tips Inve...
Stock Tips Investment's picture

The minimum wage is one of the most negative factors in the fight against unemployment.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 04:25 | 3252509 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

The Big Finance Capital war oon small business is the #1-10 problems that faces small business.

Big Finance Capital corporate fronts steal most of the government contracts allocated to small business - by law.  Of course, that law is just a suggestion, so they don't have to do it.

Lloyd Chapman - American Small Business League

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9gRk8E4jbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6Eo5LG3d0

The American tax incented offshoring of jobs to slave labor and pollution infested dictatorships is being used to bankrupt Americans - and increased regulation in America while ignorning the dictator controlled China crimes against humanity...  well, now you know the reality behind the false narrative.

“Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in fostering high morale and community of purpose,” declared David Rockefeller. “The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao’s leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history.”
~David Rocckefeller

Mao and Rockefeller: Beck Fails to Call Out the Real Monsters

http://www.infowars.com/mao-and-rockefeller-beck-fails-to-call-out-the-r...

The New Wrold Order is the Old World Order... - tyrants lording it over their impoverished serfs...

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:54 | 3249942 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Whoa man. Sick information. Edited by the first beezy herself! What great theater we are treated to.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:02 | 3249964 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

This isn't going to interfere with his golf lessons with Hank Haney this weekend, or Chewbacca's ski trip is it?... 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:29 | 3250013 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Two days of "work" a week can be exhausting when you da prez - you know, with the highest number of PTO hours on the clock ever.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:25 | 3250246 Darth Stacker
Darth Stacker's picture

Hey Francis (I mean Psycho) Chewbacca......really? Hahhahaha!!!!! That's funny sh*t!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 19:24 | 3250365 jballz
jballz's picture

Hahaha you think it matters.

Who gives a fuck? You can shitcan bo tomorrow and nothing changes. What part of above the law do you not understand?

Seems some folks just can't stand having a niggah in the whitehouse, they want some white old money scumbag to lie to them instead.

Good luck with your lawsuits, nobody gives a fuck.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 20:02 | 3250434 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

this isn't any different than heritage and ken starr running around the country looking for bill clintons girl friends. its been bad a long time ducklings, and the fact that obama isn't a citizen is a separate issue from his lack of truthfulness as president. but somebody reelected the guy, and maybe it was a bunch of algorithms programmed into the diebold system, i really don't know. i'd like to see him go home early (maybe he can be a community organizer in Chicago, to help stop the violence, oh thats right he already licked that problem) but the bush people were running loose like a rogue asteroid inside the upper atmosphere. they were going to turn this country into a one party nation. obama knows it too, but he gets to play the game, lucky him.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 22:18 | 3252158 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

You are crazy (referring to the knuclkehead who posted about the phony Obama Supreme Court case)

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:31 | 3249864 Clayton Bigsby
Clayton Bigsby's picture

Took the words right out of my mouth...

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 22:17 | 3250630 upWising
upWising's picture

Executive suites are like septic tanks: The shit rises to the top, floats around far too long and stinks up the place, and ever so slowly rots and sinks to the bottom where it belongs.  In the process a lot of volatile gases are created.

If every executive was paid what s/he was worth, the MAXIMUM CEO wage would drop to $5,25 hour.  Providing "vision" (with a white cane), braying and mooing "Mission(ary position) Statements" and "articulating Shared Values" (such as prevarication, book-cooking, and overt theft) :: we can do without these "skills."

The people who DO the work, sweat the sweat, answer the phones, dive the machines, fix the machines, dump the trash and clean the shitters : they are the ones who do the REAL work and deserve to make real money so they can live decently.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:03 | 3249967 shinola
shinola's picture

Friedman is an ass.

 

Belongs to the same "let's pass off economic theology as science" club as Krugman.

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:39 | 3250121 orez65
orez65's picture

Friedman may be an ass but he is correct about the minimum wage law.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:04 | 3250686 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

First, minimum wage has been falling precipitously for many decades in real terms.

Second, no he's not correct about the minimum wage law. Sure, for brain dead morons who can't be bothered to look into it for 2 seconds and would simply prefer to go along with Friedman's propaganda this line of reasoning makes sense "What you're doing is to ensure that people whose skills do not justify that wage will be unemployed."

Friedman has been proven wrong on this point over and over. >>Show a correlation between countries with a higher level of unemployment and a higher minimum wage over time.<< Oh you can't? 

And finally, there is often very little 'justification' between one's particular skills and one's earnings. Why the fuck do you think companies like slave labour under totalitarian governments so much?? I guess it's simple supply and demand, nothing to do with being able to force a lower wage / no benefits on the workforce. 

Aapl had a 46% margin in q2 2012, guess they would've been fucked if they were forced to pay their assembly workers a living wage for hrs worked. Would probably just close up shop and stop shipping iphones! 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:34 | 3250726 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

>>Show a correlation betweencountries with a higher level of unemployment and a higher minimum wage over time.<< Oh you can't? 

 

This is an astoudingly weak argument.  1) correlation is not causation (or if you prefer, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) 2)the unemployment rate is influenced by many factors beyond just the cost of labor.

And while we can all think of the dumbass that makes 50% more than people much more qualified than him, it's not necessarily true in the aggregate, especially at the low end of the pay scale.  A lot of minimum wage workers are teenagers just entering the work force.  Guess what?  They have very few skills.  But if businesses are forced to pay them more than what they're worth, fewer of them will get hired, which means fewer of them start learning how to be a productive part of the work force.  

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 00:16 | 3250772 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

2)the unemployment rate is influenced by many factors beyond just the cost of labor.

Yes exactly............................................

"This is an astoudingly weak argument."

Exactly what I think when people zero in on a marginal minimum wage as a factor in unemployment. There's a good case to be made for a minimum wage on a variety of factors, the counter argument (including Friedman's) is usually some flimsy nonsense hinging on higher overall unemployment. 

"A lot of minimum wage workers are teenagers just entering the work force."

Define "a lot" as a percentage. 

"But if businesses are forced to pay them more than what they're worth, fewer of them will get hired, which means fewer of them start learning how to be a productive part of the work force."

I outlined this further elsewhere on this thread but any business that hires unnecessary workers due to a ~$2 cheaper minimum wage shouldn't be in business. 

The reality is business will always pay their workers as cheap as the labour market demands or legally possible, this has always been the case. Wages of workers in Bangladesh have no relationship to the final product they are making, it's simply labour market "flexibility."

"But if businesses are forced to pay them more than what they're worth"

This comes down to a philosophical argument, but fundamentally what something is "worth" is what a buyer is willing to buy for and a seller is willing to sell for. It's a push and a pull, fortunately for labour most products are sold at a very higher margin, unfortunately for labour there is very little co-ordination among human capital to protect it's worth. 

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 04:43 | 3250959 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

If minimum wage is such a great idea, then why not go whole hog and raise it to $1,000/hr?

Kinda proves what an idiotic idea it truly is!

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 06:11 | 3250997 Kiwi Pete
Kiwi Pete's picture

On the other hand why dont you guys bring back slavery and create full employment overnight.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 08:27 | 3251042 Capitalist
Capitalist's picture

"I outlined this further elsewhere on this thread but any business that hires unnecessary workers due to a ~$2 cheaper minimum wage shouldn't be in business."

Since when do you get to decide who gets to be in business? You would rather see these businesses shut down and then what happens to their workers? 

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 03:49 | 3250928 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

The minimum wage in Australia (as a permanent worker) is $15.96 per hour. On top of that is the casual rate loading of 25% which makes it AU$19.95 per hour. At the present exchange rate that is US$20.55 per hour. I call bullshit on Friedman and his followers when I look at the overall economic health and employment situation in Australia when compared to the USA. (Unless you are a member of the 0.01% maybe)

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 04:53 | 3250967 Capitalist
Capitalist's picture

I don't know if you live in Australia like I do (i'm guessing you don't) but our prices for good and services are close to double what they are in the US. We also manufacture close to nothing because our labour, land, electricity prices are some of the highest in the world.

If you want to kill your manufacturing industry then follow the Australian example and heavily regulate your labour force.

You should not look at Australia's economic health and minimum wage laws and then conclude that a high minimum wage doesn't effect the economy. Logic alone should tell you the higher wages are in a country the higher the prices of goods. The higher the government sets the minimum wage, the less unskilled labour will be employed. Are you seriously disputing this?

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 06:22 | 3251001 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

I can get a loaf of bread or a litre of milk for $1 at any of the major supermarkets in Australia. How much are the same items on average in the US? Even if you are correct that goods and services are close to double that of US, wages are triple for the same job at least giving the peasants some disposable income. I know a Filipina that worked like a dog as a cleaner in the US for $7.25 an hour, she returned to the Philippines in a wheelchair the scum hotels owners fucked her over so much. She now works in Australian hotels for AU$23.48 and they are competing for her services. The higher disposable income creates work wherever it's spent. Do you seriously dispute this? So instead of it going to them, the greed ridden 0.1% can go pay an extra million at the next auction for their next work of art or racehorse aquisition hey? Oh wow, that will create so much employment here!

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 07:01 | 3251021 Capitalist
Capitalist's picture

Don't know about bread but milk is $3.5-$4 for a gallon which is similar to $1/L in Aus. Milk is one item that is pretty cheap but I doubt you can say the same for most other groceries or physical goods like clothing, electronics etc.

Hard to believe a cleaner is making $23.48 in Aus and "competing" for her services but that doesn't prove government mandated higher wages can be sustained in every economy. Cleaners make lots in mining towns for example because there's a shortage of labour, which is not the case in the US. Right now there are millions of Americans unemployed and making employment more expensive will make it difficult for the unemployed to find work.

 

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 10:14 | 3251111 moregoldplease
moregoldplease's picture

Do you mean the Chinese workers are making $7.25 an hour or a month?

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 16:48 | 3251707 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

Working on minimum wage is nothing but slavery. In slavery master provided for food. where as employer pay you minimum wag for food.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 21:07 | 3252061 Capitalist
Capitalist's picture

Yeah because an employer forces them to work just like slavery.. oh wait.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 12:06 | 3251220 keesooi
keesooi's picture

Yes, Germany (with no statutory Minimum wage) has a way higher youth unemployment rate (5.9%) than Spain (with its recently raised minimum wage) with 21.9%.
Yup, in the Keynesian Wonderland, up is down, demand increases when prices are increased, scarcity an opportunity cost do not exist, no structure to either capital or labor, and 5.9 is higher than 21.9.
I can only conclude that you must be saying this on purpose, nobody can be this stupid.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=Fi...(%25).png&filetimestamp=20120502100338

Last time I checked, aapl did not force its employees to work for them, they were free to walk away and find a better job. Unfortunately, not all of us are "nobel laureates".

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 06:14 | 3250996 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

re orez65

you are right, Ralph Nader posted this yesterday on commondreams

website, very interesting and also read the comments.

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/02/16-1

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 09:21 | 3251069 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"You're doing nothing of the kind. What you're doing is to ensure that people whose skills do not justify that wage will be unemployed.""

This is nonsense.  First off the jobs exist and must be and will be filled at the higher rate.  Second, what are the skills needed for minimum wage jobs?  Almost none.

In order to make up for the increased wages, managment will have to do its job and make the employees more productive.  Provided managment has the skills.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 15:51 | 3251610 DangerClams
DangerClams's picture

You're not a professional Cost Estimator, are you?

Just checking.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:10 | 3249978 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

Both from Chi-ca-go

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:34 | 3250022 Monedas
Monedas's picture

Friedman is a Monedian level Libertarian .... and a good Jew .... for all you Socialist Jew haters !

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:40 | 3250038 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

"You're doing nothing of the kind. What you're doing is to ensure that people whose skills do not justify that wage will be unemployed."

 

Jesus, Milt, maybe THATS  the plan?  Dependence forever until they have Obamacare kill the worthless?

 

FORWARD SOVIET!

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 17:36 | 3251778 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Milton Friedman - Orwellian Newspeak

Learn the techniques, spread the word.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:20 | 3249829 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

This is wrong.

Minimum wage works ... in our countries in north-west Continental Europe, we have what is actually zero poverty among legal residents ... everyone has health care ... crime is low, hardly anyone in prison ...little oppression by police, government, courts or lawyers ... and we even own guns too ... it is the closest thing to paradise ever built in human history

Friedman's monetarist theories have some merit ... but so does the European way of doing things

It does not do the world good to have everyone making the slave-labour wages in China and Bangladesh

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:24 | 3249843 frenchie
frenchie's picture

</sarc> missing

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:25 | 3249846 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

What is interesting to me is that the same people who seem to understand that real price inflation has been running much higher than reported, also think the minimum wage (which in adjusted for real inflation dollars is a joke -- no adult can live on minimum wage) is somehow responsible for the lack of employment in the U.S.  The two have nothing to do with each other, yet the ridiculously low minimum wage is very responsible for many people not bothering to look for work and instead choosing welfare.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:47 | 3249885 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Raising minimum wage is inflationary, no?  For sure it's a direct admission that the purchasing power of the dollar is falling, but Soebarkah would never publicly say that.

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:57 | 3249947 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Bingo! Thank you.

In the absence of critical thinking, evil rides on the back of good intentions.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:55 | 3250057 Matt
Matt's picture

So, you guys still believe in the Keynesian definition of Inflation? It's funny when people like to mix and match different terms and ideas from different schools of thought.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 04:18 | 3250948 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

As opposed to drinking K00l-Aid without question. I know a good 12-step program when you are ready.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 04:46 | 3250960 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

Jew trolls on this site can go blow yourselves.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:12 | 3249984 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Printing trillions of dollars and ZIRP are inflationary far more than raising min wage.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:41 | 3250004 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

The two aren't exclusive.  In fact, QE and ZIRP are a direct cause of minimum wage needing to be raised.  And it's not just "minimum wage", it's all wages.  We have widespread dollar destruction going on now.

As more dollars are printed, the value of each dollar declines.  The argument about minimum wage has nothing to do with labor value, and everything to do with the government admitting that inflation is eating away at earning power.  With no mimimum mandated, corporations would then each have to have a policy of raising wages commensurate with inflation.  How would that be monitored or enforced?

IMO, minimum wage laws are in place at the request of the FED with the goal of masking dollar destruction.  They know if they don't institue a law regarding currency devaluation as it pertains to income, then the cat is out of the bag and dollar devaluation becomes headline news such as "company X increased wages by 20% because last year our dollar lost 20%."  Can you imagine headlines like that coming from McDonalds, Wal-Mart, or Target?

It is way easier to keep the masses numb by having a "mimimum wage law" under the guise of helping J6P.

I believe this is not a labor value argument, but a dollar value argument.

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:50 | 3250050 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

+1

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:15 | 3250087 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

YES.........pay my wage to me in a form of money that does not depreciate year over year.....SILVER or GOLD

 

fuck debt (fiat) Money

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 10:14 | 3251112 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

Your post brings up most of what I was thinking about this article in the last day or so. Highly likely a FED request.

I am also thinking about the possibility that this is proactive and meant to push all the newly printed money into service to jump start the economy. The short term hope is that the wage increase will last long enough before inflation kicks in from the poor spending their excess wages. (I think this is a very plausible explanation because it is wrong, stupid, how an economist would think, wouldn't last 6 months and reeks of desperation) 

Long term, the employers will be crushed by this and Obamacare and the people by inflation. But, every long term problem will allow the governemnt 2 or 3 good kicks at a can....

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:57 | 3250059 Stuffs And Stuff
Stuffs And Stuff's picture

Well said, my friend. It sure as hell isn't possible for anyone to live on minimum wage; as a minimum wage worker, you have two options - Work at minimum wage and get government assistance, or just not work and collect government assistance. 

Some of my facebook friends are saying to bless Obama for this, they're saying AMEN! It's like DAMN, don't they realize that while minimum wage workers might get paid a little bit more, companies are also going to increase their prices to make up for lost revenue, meaning there's really no effective difference in pay, and then everyone else will essentially be getting a pay reduction because prices go up but their wages aren't!

It's the same reason college tuition is so expensive - There's so much government assistance available that it justifies continually raising the price. I know people who are $30,000 in debt just from college; if the prices keep going up, soon you're going to have kids $50,000 in debt, $100,000 in debt, you're going to have people in their 80s, still not retired, paying off the student loans from their 20s and shit!

And now I heard Obama wants to make everyone go to community college. In a few years, the price for that is going to skyrocket because of it, and it's going to make it impossible to find a job without a degree, eseentially making you pay just to get a job. You're going to have people applying for jobs at McDonalds... Competiting with college graduates for a minimum wage position!!! 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:23 | 3250095 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

I have survived on min wage or less - one part time job - so you're full of it.  Sure, you can't live in silicon valley for that, it depends where you are.  And you can't have bling and fancy new stuff, but you can have plenty to eat, 3 hots, a cot in a dive (or in my case, a small building in the country).

It was good disipline for when I got rich (after starting a company), actually.

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:12 | 3250166 Stuffs And Stuff
Stuffs And Stuff's picture

You're right, I guess it depends on where you live. What I want to know... is where the fuck do you live?!

I live in over-priced Maryland - Everything is over-priced here. You may say to just move, but... this is where my job was.

I was working full-time for $9.25, and most of my income was going to rent, utilities, food, and internet. I wasn't living in a nice place, either; I was living with my girlfriend in the cheapest one-bedroom apartment we could find in an area that allowed us both to get to work at reasonable distances. My hours were variable so sometimes I would have no money for the week after bills - I would be lucky just have to $50 for the week.

With this $50, I had options.

I could save it and do nothing for the week except sit in the house, but why the fuck am I going to just sit there all week so I can save 50? What the fuck am I going to save up for with $50? Especially since I wouldn't know if I would have more money to add to that the next week, because again, my hours were variable.

I would try to save as much as possible whenever possible, but honestly I would often end up buy drugs if I had extra money - I would self-medicate because I was fucking depressed. It was more economic to buy drugs than go out with friends. I could go out for a night or two or I could self-medicate for 5 days.

I want to know where you live that you can live on minimum wage part-time. It's NOT possible here unless you live with your parents... I mean, I guess you can SURVIVE, but you're going to live a really shitty uneventful life, you're just going to work and do nothing else!!!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 19:20 | 3250356 Cow
Cow's picture

Anybody who lives on minimum wage for a long time, deserves it. You could a) get two jobs, b) get more education/experience to make yourself more valuable to someone, c) sit on your ass and get high, or d) work hard at your current job so your employer thinks you are worth more than the minimum.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:27 | 3250706 Stuffs And Stuff
Stuffs And Stuff's picture

It wasn't minimum wage, first off.

Second, my hours were completely variable, between 30-60, so theres no way I could have another job at the same time. Also, even if I could have worked two jobs at once, considering I occasionally had 60-hour weeks, you think I really want to work another 20?!

I was a great worker, Cow. I was fucking amazing and the entire staff there loved me for it, with the exception of the general manager - The manager, though, she was a complete sociopath!

The manager used to huff dust off at work for fucks sake!

I was written up from her before for literally not being able to be in two places at once.

I worked there full-time and she told me I wasn't eligable for their health insurance because I wasn't full-time.

She used to make huge mistakes and then blame other people! She fucked up this one time and threatened to fire an entire department for something she fucking caused!

She used to straight up lie to people, it was a vet and you would need equipment to do your job, and if your equipment needed repaired or replaced, she would tell you she just ordered it then a month later she would say she forgot to order it.

I remember when I was bitten by a cat and I was wrapping it up so I could do my job without risking infection. The manager came up to me and said I should wear a cone collar on it so I don't bite at it. I wanted to slap that bitch for saying that!

The manager drove to work on some type of medication you aren't supposed to drive on, then fell asleep at the wheel, crashed into a power line, taking out power for the entire block, totalled her car and broke her leg.

The list goes on and on, man, this is just the tip of fucking ice-berg. The owner, however, ALWAYS had her back. So don't tell me to work harder motherfucker, as if I'm some lazy chode.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 01:28 | 3250837 object_orient
object_orient's picture

Oh come on. Real life experiences are way less credible than platitudes. Work hard and get ahead. The early bird catches the worm. And so on.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 16:05 | 3251630 Stuffs And Stuff
Stuffs And Stuff's picture

I suppose they are; it's like people assume you're some lazy piece of shit just because you're poor. It doesn't matter that the system is actively holding you down, no, it's your fault. Not trying to play the victim here, I'm just saying.

I eventually did get a dollar raise, though; not because my hard work convinced her, but because she didn't have a choice - I was going to severely cut back my hours so I could find a second job, if she didn't. She could've found another worker, sure, but the people I work with didn't want that - They wanted me, and they made sure the manager knew it. If I cut back my hours, many of them were going to do the same.

It's really sad when you have to rely on threats and mutiny just to get some fucking decency from those in charge; if it's left up to them, they'll gladly exploit you as much as possible and throw you under every bus available, I've come to learn. I'd rather just work together and be friendly and respectful to everyone, but I was forced to make the manager scared of me to get any sense of respect from her. Fucking sad.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 16:21 | 3251658 Stuffs And Stuff
Stuffs And Stuff's picture

Anyway, this story is very reminiscent of the state of things in general. The people in charge of this country, both the people officially in charge and the people who are actually in charge, are completely unstable and insane. The only way we'll get any justice is if we stand the fuck up together and demand it.

(Also, the manager I was talking about has since lost her job, and also lost her boyfriend and daughter because her man came home one day and found his gun safe was open with the gun missing, and he found empty boxes for horse tranquilizer laying around (She worked at a vet). He broke up with her and took the kid with him. I'm not the vindictive type, but this really made my day.)

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 05:55 | 3252548 sadmamapatriot
sadmamapatriot's picture

Frankly, you sound like a spoiled brat to me. Get busy living or get busy dying, dumbass.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:35 | 3250115 Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

A wage is the price of labor.  The federal government has no more right setting the price of labor than it has setting the price of gas, steel, water, or any other commodity.  If there were no minimum wage, more people would be employed. Our liberal friends have a hard time comprehending this as they spend all of their brain power trying to come up with ways to pay people for not working.  When I was a teen in the late 70's, I had a sub-minimum wage job and I was glad to have the work and the money.  I didn't stay there for a career.  Employment opportunities are much worse for teens today.  Kids are growing up unemployed and end up unemployable.  Then, with no work experience, they grow up and get stuck in some minimum wage job.  It is sickening to go into a fast food joint these days and see people who are middle aged and older working jobs that used to be done by slack-jawed teenagers.  That's the collateral damage of minimum wage.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:23 | 3250710 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

"If there were no minimum wage, more people would be employed."

Only if your margins are so tight that labour costs directly affect how many units you can sell. Otherwise it's just a way to pay the same amount of workers less money. 

No one who has any brain in business would hire more people simply because wages have gone down slightly. Nor would they start firing people if wages go up slightly. In any well managed business people get hired and fired as demand and overall margins go (marginal increase in minimum wage almost certainly having no noticeable affect on company margins). 

Any business that employees more or less people than are necessary is doing it wrong. McDonald's is a well managed business, they might bitch and whine about a tiny minimum wage hike but their margins will remain intact. 

Usually when you're talking about companies with a lot of emloyees earning minimum wage they are very concious of having the smallest workforce necessary and also keen to pay as little as required by law, see Wal-Mart. 

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 12:08 | 3251223 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

and we're headed for a jobless society, so pretend you're a politican, just what do you do to see that the economy keeps running, because the situation is that soon the financial oligarchs will control the means of production (robotics) with very little need for human interaction, and they've reduced that in most cases to the lowest common denominator (now cars that drive themselves, hell you can't even be a cab driver in this society) their problem is where do they find consumers? nobody has a job, and population growth is already peaking in industrial nations (so you have to sell mexicans and muslims on the consumer society. you need to give them a leg up, somehow, don't you? and you make the point that seniors are stealing their path to becoming fully vested consumers) politics is like trying to screw a cat in the ass, right chinaski?

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 04:54 | 3250968 Edmon Plume
Edmon Plume's picture

Just to cheer you and your friends up, your payroll taxes just increased.

Go to college, take out loans, live on a thread.  Use excess loans to buy PM's.

But don't get a queer studies degree or something  useless.  Tax your brain with a math degree or engineering, something useful.  That way, you'll feel good about yourself even when you can't find a job, which might be for the rest of your life.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 08:26 | 3251041 DRT RD
DRT RD's picture

This is in addition to why governrments raise the minimum wage.  It's a tax increase!.  The more an individual makes, the more SSi and medicare taxes are levied. And I don't even have a Harvard MBA, just a few c-stores.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:46 | 3250735 keesooi
keesooi's picture

"the ridiculously low minimum wage is very responsible for many people not bothering to look for work and instead choosing welfare".
You just pointed out the second reason why the labor market is not allowed to clear. There are plenty of jobs out there, but Americans are not allowed to compete for them, so they are taken by illegals. Raising the minimum wage even further just means illegals will be flooding in even more. It must be pointed out that nobody is forced to work for minimum wage. It's a choice, and a choice many unskilled and inexperienced folks are happy to make. I worked minimum wage jobs, and I am grateful for the opportunities, the experience and the skills I was able to obtain. They have proven to be more valuable than my education (compliments of the government). It's outright immoral to deny marginal workers this opportunity.
Why can't you just leave people to be free to make up their own mind what wage they are willing to work for?

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 15:55 | 3251615 DangerClams
DangerClams's picture

No, they're choosing welfare because it pays more than the prevailing wage for unskilled labor.  If welfare went away (in all of its versions), do you think there would be less or more unemployment?

When it boils down to not eating and a minimum-wage job (or 2 of them), people will work.  Then they will hopefully start learning to appreciate their own inherent value, regardless of their skills.  Instead, they're handed a check for simply existing - which is, in a lot of ways, what spoiled rich kids get, and everyone knows how sweet those dicks are, right?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:34 | 3249877 ATM
ATM's picture

There is no poverty among legal citizens in the US either. In fact the standard of living is much higher than in NW continental Europe. Everyone eats, have a cell phone, cable, a much bigger house than anyone in Europe and cars.

However, it is all a mirage made possible only by unsustainable borrowing from the future. Once the borrowing is stopped, as it has to be since borrowing cannot continue ad infinitum, the real standard of living will be realized and the poverty you claim doesn't exist will show it's head.

NW Europe is broke just as is the US. Keep beleive what you see is real and you will wake up one day in a daze with someone ass raping you with a hammer for your socks.

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:06 | 3249973 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

"There is no poverty among legal citizens in the US either"

ARE YOU ON FUCKING CRACK?

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 12:57 | 3253230 ATM
ATM's picture

Have you ever been to a place where there is ACTUAL poverty?  

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:34 | 3249879 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

<<crime is low>>?

 

I was in downtown Brussels recently. Crime is not low, especially at night and super esp near the central train station.

Even in my favorite town, Bruges, I was assualted by several Moroccan Do-Badders. Bank guy, you gots to get out more often and rub shoulders with the hoi poloi.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:05 | 3249972 css1971
css1971's picture

Come to Glasgow, socialist (and knife) capital of the UK. Go out of a Friday evening and enjoy running gang fights between rival unemployables; swords, machetes and so on.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:08 | 3250076 847328_3527
847328_3527's picture

Diversity can be a Bitch.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 11:58 | 3251214 Archduke
Archduke's picture

these are the disenfranchised white working class.
same goes for limerick (stab city) liverpool, etc.

none of these places are what I would describe as
socialist. these are the dejected descendants of migrants
whose land was cleared and who eeked under a different
yoke in the mills of the industrial revolution.

it's because of that squallor and misery that labour
and social movements got organized, the result of
which was a thriving middle class. but as you can see
structural changes take generations to affect.

not everybody wants out. not everyone has the chance,
but in the aggregate average prosperity has gone up.
glasgow is bad now, but it's better than in dickensian
dystopia days.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:41 | 3249908 glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

Enforcing a minimum wage does nothing but create higher unemployment. It's all in the math..

Max Labor Component = $100 / $7.25 (current minimum wage) = 13.79 employees

Take the same $100 labor and divide it by $9.00, as a biz you can only afford to hire 11.11 employees.

Since labor is a fixed input cost the above scenario would result in 3 people losing their jobs......

Anyone who says or 'believes' fixing minimum wages is good have a serious logic deficiency.......

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:53 | 3249936 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Ding ding ding! We aint know how ta reckon, remember? More money for the minimum wage worker? Surely that's a good thing!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:00 | 3249955 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

11 people earning a living wage do more to benefit the economy than 13 people who do not earn enough to make ends meet.

Increased wages create increased demand for products which in turn creates the need for additional employees to create product.

The argument you present is the argument presented by corporations that simply want to keep more of their profits rather than pay employees a living wage. It's bullshit.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:07 | 3249975 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Sure, as long as you don't mind the other two people starving.  Please, humanity is a fucking ponzi itself, the laws of nature and physics will fix this, please stand by...

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:24 | 3250008 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

but don't you amercians love seeing people starve? especially if they are a little brownish or have an accent? history certainly does suggest that.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:37 | 3250031 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Picture for a moment a little girl or boy who doesn't know what it's like to be a child...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WafrXhJ22QY

p.s. cough up the money pal.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:48 | 3250150 Matt
Matt's picture

But why are their parents creating excess children they cannot afford to care for?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:36 | 3250029 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture

 

 

Spot on. The only thing disrupting / pausing nature at this point is welfare, cheap oil, etc, etc. Just a hunch but I think nature will win in the end. 

Imagine if the flow, not the supply, of oil was stopped for say … 3 months. Where is that tube of mystery meat going to come from? A banana …. think Juan is going to canoe one over the ocean to you? 

You got food and my kids are starving - scary possibilities huh. Oh don’t worry, the herd will be culled. What a way to go ….. aaah yes just my luck as always LOL. 

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 22:46 | 3250665 Ain't No Sunshine
Ain&#039;t No Sunshine's picture

Then increase them wages to $100/hour!!

Hell yea!!  A Real friggin' "Living Wage".

 

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 00:06 | 3250764 Edmon Plume
Edmon Plume's picture

Hey, that's not playing fair.  It's like telling a keynesian to double down on spending next year, because if you can spend your way out of debt, then spending more and/or faster will really make the economy roar.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:41 | 3250732 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

Think about your statement - 11 people earning $100 is more productive for the economy than 13 people earning $100.  At the end of the day, it's still $100 in total wages entering the economy.  All you've done under your scenario is make sure that 2 people can't afford to buy anything at all.

By extension of you argument we should just pay 1 worker $100 and let everyone else fuck off and die.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 04:20 | 3250950 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

If enough people cannot afford stuff, prices for that STUFF, fall. Demand destruction.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 08:34 | 3251045 DRT RD
DRT RD's picture

it sounds wonderful, your hope for utopia, but I will raise the price of my full serve car was from $21.00 to $26.00.  I imagine that most business would do the same.  So, now who is better off.  No matter what, and you need to remenber this because it's important, there will always be a certian % of poor working people, because as demand for products increase, so does price.  The demand for products and services would increase because of increased disposable income.  You guys that push this living wage seem to forget this.  Also a huge tax increase!!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:10 | 3250078 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

***Anyone who says or 'believes' fixing minimum wages is good have a serious logic deficiency***

So let me get this straight. If we raise the minimum wage by $1.75 (7.25 to 9.00) then all of a sudden the burgers are going to flip themselves. All the toilets are going to clean themselves. All the chickens are going to pluck themselves. Bullshit!

If they have hired someone to do these shit jobs, it's because the job need to be done. They are not going to suddenly not have the task done because they have to pay a little more.

Milton Friedman was an asshole.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:31 | 3250109 knightowl77
knightowl77's picture

No dipstick, but the burgers will now cost more to flip...Therefore they will cost the public more to buy....That same phenomena will ripple across the country....so that shortly, even though you are making more, you will not be able to buy any more.....that in turn will lead reductions in the workforce

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:34 | 3250266 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

Actually what might happen if the minimum wage was raised to a real subsistence level is that these people might have enough money to buy their own food and wouldn't need food stamps. Food stamps are a subsidy to major corporations such as Wall-mart and McDonald's and allow them to pay subsistence wages.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:51 | 3250745 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

You've got it backwards - rising wages are a result of wealth creation, not a cause of it.

Everybody likes to point out that Henry Ford paid his workers $5 a day back in 1914 arguing that he created a middle class that could afford to buy his products.  Those people overlook that Ford installed the first moving assembly line in 1913, dramatcially increasing productivity (a fancy way of saying he created wealth).  He paid his workers because he could afford to and because he needed them to help churn out lower-priced product (which more people could afford).

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 01:39 | 3250841 object_orient
object_orient's picture

And when McDonalds increases efficiency in burger assembly, raising worker productivity, the employees get raises? Nah. Productivity gains these days go to the top, not the bottom.

And that's fine. When times are tough cash registers are short and inventory goes missing.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 10:47 | 3251138 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

everyone get raises in real terms because those burgers are cheaper to make, freeing up capital (at the margin) to buy other things

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 05:04 | 3250971 Edmon Plume
Edmon Plume's picture

It's not hard to get by because food costs more; it's hard to get by because each dollar you earn is worth less.  Giving everyone more dollars makes all dollars worth less, and eventually worthless.  Saying food is more costly should make you ask why the same food "costs" more.  A 2013 loaf of bread is not only not any better than one made in 1913, but it's less wholesome, yet it "costs" a lot more than a nickel.  Why?

Blame 1913.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 19:26 | 3250372 Cow
Cow's picture

Clearly you are fighting reality.  Instead of having 14 people flipping burgers, they now have 12.  It's really not that hard of a concept.

Milton was a genius

 

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 20:18 | 3250452 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

I have to ask. If they could get by with 12 burger flippers why were they employing 14? The mangers should be fired. Rather I think that they will only employ what they absolutely need no matter what the wage is.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:53 | 3250748 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

they will employ 12 and service will suffer as a result.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 01:45 | 3250844 object_orient
object_orient's picture

No they won't, and no it won't. McDonalds will sacrifice service, sabotage its own business, to spite the minimum wage increase? Get real. They will increase prices or their margins will shrink. Same thing when food prices increase, or gas, or utilities, or taxes. Homer is way smarter than you.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 04:25 | 3250951 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

McDonalds will sacrifice service, sabotage its own business

This impacts demand adversely.

They will increase prices or their margins will shrink.

Again, this impacts demand. People will choose a competitor, which might include eating in. Utilities are a different animal, since they are government protected monopolies. Food and gas are as well, to a lesser degree.

Homer is way smarter than you.

Ad Hom. Next.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 05:19 | 3250975 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

The fact that the minimum wage proposal isn't to raise it to $1,000/hr puts the lie to yer argument.

Check yer premises, because yer argument leads to illogical conclusions.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 14:09 | 3251454 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

McDonald's won't intentionally sacrifice service and sabotage it's own business, they'll hire fewer flippers in order to preserve profitability and/or raise prices.  Either way they lose - poorer service or fewer customers.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:29 | 3250720 keesooi
keesooi's picture

"burgers will flip themselves".
Yup: http://singularityhub.com/2013/01/22/robot-serves-up-340-hamburgers-per-...
It's not called " law of supply and demand" for nothing. But hey, keep believing that raising the price of something will somehow increase its demand. Good luck with that lemonade stand, dude.
The minimum wage job is the defacto entry level job for the unskilled and inexperienced. By raising the bottom ring of the ladder, it simply means that less people will be able to grab it.
And no, if the job can't be done profitably, it won't get done, period. It usually means it will get done with fewer people, each working fewer hours.
You obviously have never run a business.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 06:50 | 3251016 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

I love ZH but it really worries me that there are 3 times the down arrows for a comment that makes perfect logical sense.  

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:36 | 3250271 rguptatx
rguptatx's picture

Y'all are missing the point entirely. Union contracts are wwritten with reference to "minimum wage" - so if the minimum wage goes up ten percent, all union contract wages go up automatically. Hence the real motive behind this push - a payoff to the goons and thugs aka "unions".

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:39 | 3250731 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Absolutely correct! This was the first thing I thought of when I read this article. This is only a union grab to demand more money. Read between the lines, especially when it's couched in the " we're doing this to help the poor" label.

Miffed ;-)

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:01 | 3249959 css1971
css1971's picture

You're talking about Belgium?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:04 | 3250071 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

And Belgium is a little country that is now the seat of the EU, sucking up wealth from all the rest of Europe.  It is like Washington DC on steroids, but without the blacks.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:03 | 3250186 Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

Will Moroccans do?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:40 | 3250037 Monedas
Monedas's picture

You'll sing a different tune when your country is over run by niggers and Muslims !

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:54 | 3250054 DJ Happy Ending
DJ Happy Ending's picture

That's because northern Europe doesn't have cities teeming with multi-generational welfare mothers and their bastard children who celebrate ignorance and violence.

You have a homogeneous culture which does not excuse or idolize poverty. Poor Europeans are not proud to be uneducated and worthless.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:41 | 3250132 orez65
orez65's picture

You mean like in France and Spain which are totally bankrupt!!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:08 | 3250202 orez65
orez65's picture

You mean European countries like France?
Which is totally and absolutely bankrupt.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 22:53 | 3250673 yatikto
yatikto's picture

Exactly, just because unions are corrupt does not mean we don't need unions.

It just means they are corrupt. 

If workers can't get together and bargain, do people really believe employers will pay them more voluntarity?!!!  Really?!!  Who is going to bargaing for them ?! The government?!

We all know who the government works for.  Thats why wages for the top go higher and for the bottom go lower.

The problem is corruption.

What can you do with a tree that is rotten. Its only fit to be burned.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 15:56 | 3251617 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Minimum wage is wrong on a dozen different levels. All you minimum wage proponents are no doubt statist-collectivists. Saying your collectivism works well is like saying you have your drug addiction under control. Over time you will fail.

Here are the numerous points upon which minimum wages is wrong.

1. It is a matter of liberty and property rights. Someone owns the company and someone('s) own the labor. It is a matter of private contract as to what the business founder and owner wants to pay and what a laborer wants to sell his service for. There is no proper government role here and government does not "own" either party, at least not in a noncollectivist society. For government to intervene it asserts that it owns or controls both parties. This is the welcome mat of autocracy through central planning. Central planners do not know what the value of anything including labor is. They have to look at the private market for benchmarks.

2. To say that minimum wage does not matter is a collosal stupendous ignoring of the facts in front of your face, like not being able to see the forest because trees are in the way. If wages don't matter then there need be no tariffs, currency devaluations and you have trouble explaining why the bulk of of manufacturing has run to low cost places like China and S. Korea. At the same time you decry low minimum wages you assert the problem of low cost labor in other countries. If you believe that minimum wage doesn't matter try to run a restaurant or retail chain. Raise your labor cost 25% while customers still don't want to pay more than $7.99 for your pizza. Then vote for $100/hour minimum wages and see how much pizza you sell at $800 per pie. Go for it, geniuses. 

3. The same rules that allow goverments to control minimum wages also allow it to control maximum wages. This is done most commonly through the progressive tax rate. So, you get famous French actors leaving their countries because of income/wage controls at the same time the bottom end leaves to manufacture in China. This is the manifest brilliance of the Left.

4. Minimum wages tie into an elaborate web of union favors, currency devaluations, taxation and entitlements in complex ways that work to everyone's demise. It is why China tries to fix it's currency to the dollar. It keeps labor and products relatively cheap for export. Higher wages are a favor to unions who base their pay on some multiple of it. I will not elaborate the rest. It is too complex for simplistic leftists.

I rarely swear but God help me because I want some small fucking part of the world where we are not ruled by central planning geniuses (translated: Elitist, leftist idiots). Where I really own myself. My purpose is not to be part of the "masses" like some empty vessel waiting for a great leader to fill me with purpose, direction and meaning in life. Where I cannot steal from my neighbor and he cannot steal from me through the wonders of collectivism. Where "Do no harm to others." and protecting basic property rights are the basis of the law and everything else is left to us. A place where voluntary exchange and free markets rule...truly free markets; where you actually own the fruits of your own labor, whether it is tens of dollars or tens of millions.  Where integrity is reflected in your currency. You know, free people actually love people and each other and share a bond that crosses races and religions and needs no affirmative action. Even the cantankerous free ones leave you alone at least.

America used to be that place before it's gradual corruption into a thoroughly collectivist state. It is why the whole world, especially the nonprivelaged world tried to move here. I just want something the size of one state or a small country is Central America to try this novel idea of libertarian type freedom: Where Hayek, Friedman, Bastiat, Browne, Rand and other philosophies rule. The rest of you can live in your collectivist paradises. If we fail, you can laugh at us. However, deep down you know it will succeed wildly and put the rest to shame. You will have to put up walls...physical walls, economic walls, regulatory walls, all the walls leftisit states put up to corral their people and commerce.

In this video, Friedman is right but only on the shallowest of levels. He just scratched the surface.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:23 | 3249838 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

do-gooders as opposed to what, do-badders?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:26 | 3249850 malek
malek's picture

I'd say well meant as opposed to well done.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:29 | 3249854 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

"it is the exact people who the do-gooders are trying to help that are hurt the most - the poorest!"

so "it is the exact people the DO-BADDERS are trying to HURT who are HELPED the most - the RICHEST!"

 

i get it

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:28 | 3249848 Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

Anything not driven by market forces (to include wages) is artificial (not counting charity), either by government mandate or taxation/redistribution of wealth (more government mandate).

The minimum wage must go!

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:32 | 3249873 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

A truly free market with zero regulation would permit and indeed encourage slavery and other forms of indentured servitude for most forms of untrained labor.  Those who worship at the altar of the pure free market ignore history or have no humanity.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:36 | 3249884 ATM
ATM's picture

It is those who worship at the altar of central planning who practice gencide.

I'll choose the free marketeers rather than the murderers.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:37 | 3249889 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

It is not a black and white equation or an either/or proposition, contrary to the propaganda of the pure free market crowd.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:34 | 3250023 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

You mean gray areas like the idea that the initiation of force is wrong. Unless of course you happen to be wearing a particular costume, and/or possess a tin trinket? Unless you were appointed by a majority for exactly the purpose of initiating force against everybody? Those kinds of gray areas?

Gray areas are futile attempts at evading reality.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:56 | 3249945 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

And are you in some way suggesting that the stock market and those who benefit from it are not the recipients of a Central Plan designed to enrich them while robbing the nation?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:11 | 3249981 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Are you in some way suggesting that the existance of a stock market implies the existance of a free market?

You do know that there was a stock market in Nazi Germany, right?  There are also stock markets in many socialist countries around the world.

Why are you throwing out purposefully falacious arguments?  Is it sarcasm, or something more sinister?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:22 | 3250006 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I was responding to a guy that has been singing the praises of the "free market" and it's efficiencies as if we actually had a free market in the US.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:38 | 3249894 Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

That's rubbish.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:21 | 3250002 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Well thought out response.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:04 | 3250188 Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

Much better than yours, that's for damn sure.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:54 | 3249941 tmosley
tmosley's picture

How do you figure?  The period from the end of Reconstruction to 1913 in the US featured the freest market the world has ever known, and the things you describe didn't happen, or if they did, they were so rare that they have been lost to history.

But hey, I guess you get to dictate what happened in history to fit your arguments.  

I mean, for fucks sake, what the fuck do you think the word "free" even means?  You just redefine words to fit your agenda.  No wonder you hate Rand so much.  She pulled back the veil you use to hide behind while you kill and impoverish the world.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 17:55 | 3250167 Matt
Matt's picture

Do you suppose sustained exponential growth in energy consumption may have helped during that period? Plus the acquisition and development of a massive amount of land by violently removing the people previously occupying that land? An Empire isn't a free market.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:10 | 3249976 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Right, because that centrally planned "market" where connected corporations and people get bailouts on the backs of everyone else is working out so well.  Go fuck yourself.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 16:27 | 3250012 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

A truly free market with zero regulation would permit and indeed encourage slavery and other forms of indentured servitude for most forms of untrained labor.

You are arguing that worst outcome of the free market, that you can imagine, would be to end up exactly where we are right now. I simply ask, "When do we get started trying freedom on for size?"

How does slavery exist under system which universally enforces private property, and in which all associations are voluntary? Remind me again?

Those who worship at the altar of the pure free market ignore history

How can you point to the history of that which has never existed, and subsequently blame that which has never existed, for the failure good intentions enabled by those in postitions of authority?

or have no humanity.

Define humanity please? What is human about ceorcing others to abide by your master plan? I have no problem with your master plan, as long as it is not forced upon me.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 18:15 | 3250220 orez65
orez65's picture

According to your logic in a free market it would be legal for me to hire someone to kill your sorry ass.
You are confusing free markets with philosophy.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:08 | 3250689 yatikto
yatikto's picture

I like the point that some have made that economy is not a science.  And the trouble with science and math is that its black and white.  So interpreting a free market in that way would correlate to law of the jungle.

What free market proponents argue is limiting role of government so that it doesn't pick winners and losers in an economy.

But why pick on minimum wage?!  The real moocher class of this country and the wealthy who skim off the cream of the produce and have the gaul to whine about unions and minimum wage.

Protect the weak, orphans and widows. That is a noble cause.

 

 

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 16:04 | 3251628 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

That is such a stupid statement. Did you miss the "Free" part of free markets? Slavery has no freedom, moron. Slavery is a forced labor market. In a "free" market you are free to sell your labor. In slavery only your owner is free to sell you and the labor he can force out of you...which is always lower. It is why N. Korea, the old Soviets and others end up turning their whole country into prisons and forced labor camps. The abject stupidity of your statement is apparent to anyone who does not worship at the elitist central planning alter. When you talk about free markets you are talking about freedom for all, not some. It starts at the bottom with you selling your labor and ideas not at the top as you suppose.

You should name yourself, "LetUsEatMarx/Mao/Castro, etc"

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:41 | 3249912 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Oh PLEASE. If business in America were truly driven by "market forces" every big bank in the fucking nation would be closed, and rightly so. But that's not how this country operates is it? Meanwhile, the rich are getting their welfare checks in the form of an artificially propped up market and artificially low interest rates thanks to the Fed while the poor get fucked in the ass because they don't have the money to employ lobbyists to bribe politicians to pass laws that benefit them. To see people bitch and moan about a minimum wage being increased to a level that is, adjusted for inflation, below what wages were in 1969 is disgusting. But I guess it's easier to beat up on the little guys huh?

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:26 | 3249849 working class dog
working class dog's picture

We saw Milton Friedmans handy work in Argentina, and Peru, he was a  NEO NAZI, and Hitler would have appointed him to be in charge of the Economy in Nazi Germany. Why, because the only way this pimp of the elite's policies were ever put into practise was the full force of the military junta's death squads in Peru and Argentina courtesy of the CIA. The only way his economic policies ever worked was by using the dark hand of the CIA and the SS style secret police to enforce his economic punitive system. Check out the heckler when this pimp got the NOBEL Peace PRICE I mean prize, on  you tube. Friedman should have been made to live in the festering feces, his policies left in Peru and Argentina. Friedman getting the peace price, I mean prize,  means about as much as Obama getting a nobel price ( Obama paid for his award thru the american people via the Bankstas!).

Please!! listening to Freidman is about as useful as listening to Greenspan on CNBC.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:27 | 3249853 malek
malek's picture

Propaganda 101: if you cannot refute the argument, attack the person.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:30 | 3249861 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Pointing out the disasters that followed implementation of his policies is not attacking the person but his message.  You are in fact turning that logic on its head by attacking the poster and accusing him falsely of simply attacking Friedman as a person.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:37 | 3249890 ATM
ATM's picture

"he was a  NEO NAZI, and Hitler would have appointed him to be in charge of the Economy in Nazi Germany"

AD HOMINEM.

NOW FUCK OFF.

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