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Meet The Biggest Winner From Today's Italian Elections

Tyler Durden's picture




 

It may come as a surprise to some, but the largest single party in the Italian Chamber as a result of today's elections, when stripping away all alliance partners, is none other than Beppe Grillo's Movimento 5 Stelle. With 25.53% of the votes (96.44% of the vote counted), the comedian/blogger/counterestablishmentarian/contrarian received more votes than either Bersani's Democratic Party which got 25.51%, and Berlusconi's Popolo Della Liberta, which got 21.44%. Congratulations to both him, and to the Italian people who made the most symbolic vote of all: that they are done with a broken statist status quo, and that despite engrained beliefs to the contrary, there is a third alternative to the fake Party A-Party B paradigm.

 

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Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:39 | 3275524 Tim Knight from...
Tim Knight from Slope of Hope's picture

Ah, yes - just as I read about on Slope of Hope last night, thanks to our own BDI........

 

http://slopeofhope.com/2013/02/beppe-grillo-and-the-5-stars-movement-a-lesson-to-occupy-wall-street-c.html

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:43 | 3275531 sunaJ
sunaJ's picture

God bless him.  With a clear "victory" for Berlusconi as well, we can now have a very solid clown coalition. 

 

[clearing throat]

 

[queue music]

 

Send in the clowns...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:54 | 3275571 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It's 'Striscia la Notizia' all day long for the Azzurri these days...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:11 | 3275620 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

In my favorite book, The Territorial Imperative, Ardrey explains Italy, sort of.  He says it's a rare place that has never really functioned as a natiion, or even as city states.  The fundamental unit of organization is the Noyeau, or Neighborhood.  An Italian never really trusts anyone he doesn't see and interact with on an almost daily basis. 

Explains the Capulets and Montegues and all sorts of cheerful disorder.   Hell, it might even be right.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:21 | 3275664 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

re-vote!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:34 | 3275712 Zer0head
Zer0head's picture

Tim I think ZH charges for ads

PPC

but in your case PPV

 

but if you want to share honeymoon fotos of you and BDI - that could be a money maker

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 02:39 | 3276747 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Here is one perspective on Grillo's movement...

Beppe Grillo Wants To Give Italy Democracy

http://theautomaticearth.com/Finance/beppe-grillo-wants-to-give-italy-de...

One point - use the right words.

Mob rule sucks.  That is "democracy" - stinkin' mob rule.  I get the gang bankster psy-opp is tough and all, but think through it.  They don't want the mind thinking "Republic - soome laws are off limits regardless of votes," so they program us with democracy.

Socrates thought a lot...  about words.

We should do the same thing.

Grillo should be trying to set up a democratic republic.

Say what you mean, mean what you say.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:24 | 3275681 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Italy is light years better than Obumber Amerika with TV and Hollywood shilling 24x7 to stupid sheep.  CIA's Operation Mockingbird with Obummer as Lincoln for another civil war if the sheep get out of line and CIA and Affleck save the day plus CIA SEALS killing Osama and dumping him in the ocean.   Nothing about the same SEAL Team 6 getting set up on Chinooks to be murdered.

The Italians have survived way over 2,000 + years in various forms.  At least somone in Italy is trying to change something. 

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:27 | 3275694 walküre
walküre's picture

An Italian never really trusts anyone he doesn't see and interact with on an almost daily basis.

I'm not Italian and I don't trust anyone I don't see or interact with on a daily basis. Aside from family and old friends which moved away over time. My cards are always very close to my chest and government regardless of which level it operates on, is never to be trusted unless your family or closest friends are the government.

Anyone who is stupid enough to trust people outside of that spectrum will eat with their executioners.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:52 | 3275574 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

what's really interesting about Grillo is not so much that he's a leader, but that he's the leader of the movement and not a candidate for PM.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:17 | 3275641 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I agree. And lest we forget "Zero Hedge is a BIG winner" as well. Been listening to National Psycho Radio all day...nary a peep about an election, how it's had a major impact on world markets, what the future holds for the Italian State, etc...etc. "we go where we go together" and if that's the message coming from Rome then indeed though there may be much pain and suffering ahead they will be the stronger for it. And here's hoping some of us here can start piggy backing off our Fame at understanding such simple things and start "shaking that money maker."

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 06:46 | 3276889 TheMadNumismatist
TheMadNumismatist's picture

In the UK Grillo is sneered at as being some kind of joke candidate. But in these two videos, subtitled, Grillo lays into banks, politicians, IMF the whole shebang.

And this was 21 years ago: Long before it was fashionable.

http://www.scoinsandbullion.com/blog/501-who-is-beppe-grillo-next-italia...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 22:30 | 3276273 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

And that was funny, truly funny.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:41 | 3275529 FinLen
FinLen's picture

Tyler,

I am skeptical that the squid will allow bunga and grillo to run away with Italy and mess with the Euro.......unless the investment banks are already 100% short the market.  In which case, never mind.....

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:53 | 3275577 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

Everyone has a price, it is only a matter of time before GS gets to the winner.  Fuckin Squid

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:15 | 3275638 seek
seek's picture

Not true. Though rare, there are people of integrity in every country that can't be bought.

Of course, in the rare case of when the system fails TPTB and a person of integrity does make it into power, bullets usually await their arrival.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:30 | 3275711 walküre
walküre's picture

those leaders either die of unnatural causes or their nation gets involved in wars under dubious circustances and not by their own chosing

that debt needs to be paid no matter what.

the parasites want to live and grow fatter

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:42 | 3275536 Sweet Chicken
Sweet Chicken's picture

LMFAO that is one of the best pictures ever used on this site! UP YOURS BUNGA!!! 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:48 | 3275558 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Up yours is exactly what that means.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:54 | 3275578 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Congratulations to Italian George Lucas With An Afro.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:38 | 3275742 buckethead
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:29 | 3275885 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Forza!  It's this guy, or time for Benzino Gasollini.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:43 | 3275539 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Italy will now be in the headlines a long, long time.  Many thanks, Tyler for featuring this important news.  Bunga bunga!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:49 | 3275561 JonNadler
JonNadler's picture

providing unending first rate comedy. After all comedy is on theing Italians do well. Forza Italia!!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:01 | 3275604 JR
JR's picture

A good lesson for Americans is that when the characters and the issues are clear the people will vote their true interests. That did not happen last November in the United States where political corruption pushed out Ron Paul and created a contest with no choices; how could the people possibly vote their best interests between Obama’s welfare and Romney’s warfare?

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:39 | 3275744 Fred Hayek
Fred Hayek's picture

Hey, hey!
Don't sell Romney's welfare short, nor Obama's warfare.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:45 | 3275543 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

Topless women protesters; comedians and crooks running for office; I can hardly believe I’m getting to see this show for free without even having to buy a ticket.

Short Universal Studios, Broadway, Disney, and Barnum and Bailey now!

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:56 | 3275582 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

In Italy, this is known as "Opera Buffa". They don't take life as seriously as they do in many other cultures. Great food, beautiful women, fast cars and fantastic wine will tend to make you think that way.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:08 | 3275616 Doubleguns
Doubleguns's picture

Broke, how seriously do they take that.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:19 | 3275653 css1971
css1971's picture

They have the fast cars, beautiful women, great food and you hold their debt. How do you think they take it?

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:22 | 3275666 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

That can Bogart your knish.  OK, that was my one Hollywood Jew joke in honor of the Oscars.

I feel better now.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 03:14 | 3276771 Joe A
Joe A's picture

And a €2 trillion government debt (120% of GDP) to complement that.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 21:00 | 3276011 rhinoblitzing
rhinoblitzing's picture

You paid for it... and will continue to pay more!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:45 | 3275545 Youri Carma
Youri Carma's picture

Listen to Webster Tarpley http://tarpley.net/world-crisis-radio/ to get some useful insides http://tarpley.net/audio/WCR-20130223.mp3

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:46 | 3275547 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I have never heard this guy speak but he sure as hell seems inspiring.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 03:06 | 3276768 Idiocracy
Idiocracy's picture

He is inspiring.  I would compare him to Steven Colbert but much angrier and without the nightly talk show.  He's sharp as a whip and with real understanding of finance.  He blew the whistle on Parmalat's balance sheet years before the Milan financial media (Il Sole 24 Ore, et. al.) said jack.  He also called bullshit on the sistematic plunder of Telecom Italia by a clique of insider cronies when everybody else in Italy played see no, hear no evil.  

I've been living in Italy for 17 years (as an American) and can attest that he represents the first real possibility (perhaps since WW2) for political improvement in this moribound nation.  His agenda seems to be one item: destroy the entrenched Casta (caste) of political kleptocrats that have turned the Italian treasury into their private slush fund.  If he accomplished that and nothing else from a policy perspective he will deserve to be on Italy's version of a Mount Rushmore.

 


Tue, 02/26/2013 - 03:45 | 3276798 j3w3l7
j3w3l7's picture

Maybe he is inspiring, but how can you say that he can represent the first political improvement? Do you know that his movement fully endorse the Modern Monetary Theory instead of free market? Every ecnomic politics after the WW2 in Italy has been keynesian and this is the result. Italy with its 120% (and possibly higher) debt to GDP ratio should be one of the most prosperous and riche country in the world, in terms of MMT and what Mr. Krugman preaches.

So, they can be certainly interesting because they are naive as opposed to the old politicians, and surely they are young and fresh. But they have won because they believe in the holy grail of domestic printing money instead of cutting public spending and lowering taxes.

 

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 05:39 | 3276864 StandardDeviant
StandardDeviant's picture

I do understand the protest vote.  But, "...real understanding of finance"?!

From Bloomberg: "he wants free Internet for all, free tablets for children, and a 20-hour work week".  Folks around here make fun of Obama-nomics by talking about free iPads for all -- but this guy actually means it!

(Unless I'm thinking of the wrong kind of "tablets"?)

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 07:49 | 3276935 Idiocracy
Idiocracy's picture

J3 and SD,

Like you, I think Neo-Keynesian monetary policy based on endless debt-money printing is bullshit, and I do fear that Grillo does not understand that.  

However, Grillo does understand that Italy's number one problem is substituting KLEPTOCRACY and GERONTOCRACY with DEMOCRACY.  Everything else (iPad's for all, 20 hour work week, Neo-Keynesian vs. Austrian economics) is meaningless until that first issue is resolved.  Government is like the mind of a nation and, as the saying goes "free your mind and your ass will follow"


Tue, 02/26/2013 - 08:30 | 3277001 Rari Nantes In ...
Rari Nantes In Gurgite Vasto's picture

I have been living in the US (as an Italian) for 18 years and I could not have found better words to describe him. Well done!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:46 | 3275550 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

Given the inability of either the Democrats or Republicans to actually govern the United States, I see a very real chance for a third party candidate to be elected in the US at some point in the future.  In fact, I don't see much hope for the US until there is a big shake out somewhere in the election process.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:57 | 3275589 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

3rd party?  Not until SNAP cards fail to load, and not 1 minute before then.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:00 | 3275600 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

That could happen...and not by chance...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:36 | 3275922 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Vote for Benzino.  Bezino Gasollini.  Then you'll get "Change you can believe in."  ;-)

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:47 | 3275554 bjfish
bjfish's picture

Excellent.  Its like voting for FUCK YOU.  Was that his platform??

Now about this "fake Party A - Party B paradigm" ....  Perhaps a fellow Zh'er can explain why TPTB expend so much effort (every breath from their legion of 'newspeople') to convince us that party R is bad, and party D is saving the day. There is no pendulum swinging from side to side - it is nearly all one-sided, and has been as long as I've been awake.

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:52 | 3275573 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Italians know they are going to get screwed no matter who wins the election so they like to have fun with it. Comedians, midget tranny porn stars, they don't care.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:42 | 3275939 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I sorta agree with ya Buzz, but have a different tack:  They care only enough to know that this guy can do the least damage, compared to the other, 'serious' clowns.  That's why you can never have a multi-party or direct elections in the US - - you could no longer easily rig the system By The Few, For The Few.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:58 | 3275993 rhinoblitzing
rhinoblitzing's picture

Explanation of why the effort of a fake Party A or B election:

Simple: The $2 Billion Dollars in campaign money is spent primarily on.... The Media !

The Media - which is already plugging the 2014 and 2016 election - It;s the biggest source of guaranteed revenue on a consistent basis by sector. They are all bought and paid for. (In addition, it helps to pay for food and transportation for the sheeple that get bussed from city to city to vote in difficult precincts)

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:48 | 3275557 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

If you notice his was THE most voted party - others only beat him in coalition.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:57 | 3275591 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

not only that but no broad coalition can form post hoc (e.g. Bersani/Monti) without 5 Star's blessing, as a coalition needs 42.5% to win.

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:10 | 3275837 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Remains to be seen how/if they'll survive the dirty tricks of realpolitiks

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:20 | 3275858 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

indeed.   still, it's far beyond time for a new plot twist, so for that alone, it's refreshing.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:49 | 3275559 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Up your bunga-hole mother fuckers.  

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:50 | 3275560 blu
blu's picture

I want George Carlin to run for Congress ... from the grave. They could use lines from his standup routine as campaign material.

Is there anything in the Constitution says a candidate for office has be alive to run? I know there's nothing in there says a candidate needs to pass a basic intelligence test. Obviously. So I don't see how they can arbitrarily disallow dead people just because they are like you know dead.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:58 | 3275596 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

maybe we can bring him back in holographic form.

hey, they did for 2Pac.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:11 | 3275625 blu
blu's picture

Hey that's right! Oh and then they could do the whole "Etrade babies" synthetic animation voice-over thing using George's own comic material. It would be easy to program a computer to take questions, evaluate the nature of the question, and then run some audio of George joking as an answer! It would be huge. Dead George could campaign across all media markets at the same time, and have no travel expenses or even a speech writer.

<sigh> we should be so lucky. At least, Obama should add Dead George Carlin to his cabinet. That would be classy.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:12 | 3275841 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

If the dead can vote, they ought to be allowed to run for office, too.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:44 | 3275958 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

SCOTUS:  Dead people are people too.  Just like corporations.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:50 | 3275978 rhinoblitzing
rhinoblitzing's picture

How many times can a dead person vote?

And can they get multiple absentee ballots in all 57 states?

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:46 | 3275969 delacroix
delacroix's picture

why not. dead people are voting.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:50 | 3275566 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

Will Beppe actually have the balls to say "Vaffanculo!" to the international bankster cabal and their puppets in Brussels? That is the 64 trillion Euro question.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:35 | 3275733 walküre
walküre's picture

I just hope that he will make it his legacy to create a spectacle where the idiocy that is FRACTIONAL RESERVE LENDING will be exposed in the most humorous way. Maybe he can explain people that loans of money created from thin air are just that. Any repayment or servicing of such loans is pure stupidity. The money wasn't there in the first place, was never "earned" in the economy of banking.

The bankers are shitting their pants across Europe as we speak.

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:55 | 3275998 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I think the JPG says it all:  "Il tuo culo"  ("Up yer hole").

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:52 | 3275567 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:51 | 3275568 FinalCollapse
FinalCollapse's picture

Grillo finds horse's head in his bed...and switches his support to Godfather Monti. 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:51 | 3275569 chump666
chump666's picture

Silly humans.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 18:56 | 3275587 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Grillo will never work with Berlu. And Grillo wants min wage 1000 Euro for everybody, including out of work,  and decrease of taxes on small businesses.

Some program. 

He will not be liked by either Berlu or Bersani. 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:47 | 3275971 Matt
Matt's picture

So, you get 1000 euros if you work a full time minimum wage job, or if you sit at home unemployed? Sign me up, that sounds like a heck of a plan!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:01 | 3275603 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Just as a reminder the Pirate Party, Rickard Falkvinge founder, has made inroads in European elections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickard_Falkvinge

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:28 | 3275618 besnook
besnook's picture

dead man walking. they can't have another election because the comedian would surely win now that the people know a lot of people voted for him. he must die. these guys have no sense of humor or have a real sense of black humor.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:12 | 3275631 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

bad news, guys. Bersani is in in both Parliament and Senate. If it confirms, big rally tomorrow.

Check here:

http://elezioni.interno.it/senato/scrutini/20130224/S000000000.htm

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:19 | 3275652 falak pema
falak pema's picture

so Grillo is king maker in house and senate?

How does this work. Bersani is PM but needs majority in house and senate and so he needs Grillo!

Grillo can then arbitrate unless he says NEIN to Euro which means new elections! 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:21 | 3275669 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

No, the winner gets at least 55% of the seats. And Bersani can add up Monti's seats (he is in in both houses).

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:29 | 3275705 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

he gets a bonus, but is it automatically 55%?

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:42 | 3275724 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

The bonus is getting 340 seats for the winner which is equivalent to 55% (340+277 seats in total).

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:03 | 3275811 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

The bonus is only in the House, not the Senate. Bersani needs 50% of those seats without any bonus. Coalition or re-vote.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:23 | 3275866 ArgentoFisico
ArgentoFisico's picture

The 55% bonus goes to every regional winner... a wierd electroal system. We call it "porcellum" ... something that in english should sound like "piggum" ... don't mess trying to understand how it works!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:55 | 3275999 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

looks like Bunga got more Senate seats - 110 vs. Bersani's 97.   Monti's got 18 though.   5star got 47.   should be an entertaining next month.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:58 | 3276007 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

I think they call it in America a filibuster senate.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:27 | 3275695 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

that's the way it looks to me as well...don't see how Bersani can pull it off with those #'s.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:25 | 3275685 css1971
css1971's picture

LOL typical Italians; A coalition of 12 parties.

That'll work out just fabulously.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:31 | 3275719 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Bersani's coalition is 4 parties in the parliament and 6 parties in the senate. And Partito Democratico (Bersani) has always Monti as back up.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:50 | 3275776 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

Bersani has always Monti as back up.

yeah, that was the okie-doke.   Bersani is Italy's version of Obama.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:44 | 3275755 Freddie
Freddie's picture

About 10x better than the USA.  At least the Italians have an election.  The USSA had a fake primary where the elites had their backup.  Perry was pushed out, than Paul then Santorum.  Santorum was destroying Romney in the Mdiwest until they had late night vote theft in cities.

Then they did the same thing to Romney in all the swing states with massive vote fraud for the Dems.  Any GOP conservatives like West were targeted and beaten with fraud.  The USA is hopeless. 

The Italians make Italy ungovernable because no govt is probably better than a police state with drones, TV, Hollywood and spying on everything with the net et al.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:36 | 3275736 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

The futures turn green.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:14 | 3275636 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

It will never happen here.  Americans vote Fake Party A or Fake Party B if they're unhappy with Fake Party A.

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:19 | 3275650 antenna
antenna's picture

I'm Italian, and you americans , you should really stop whining about your economy . Here in Italy real economy is screwed , yes it's 80% our fault , but after 2000-2001 after the euro I've seen hundreds of friends losing jobs and Hope. We in Italy right now we have no HOPE. No hope for a family , no hope for job or marriage .

Now here is my question. With Grillo we will have a referendum, people have to chose to abandon the Euro and come back to the Lira, and probably Grillo wants to dump the debt and declare default. What do you think will happen in Italy after a default scenario ?

Thanks Nicolo

PS:  Yes I know some troll will reply with some really "clever" and sarcastic sentence, but please have a dignity because here in Italy it's a tragedy . 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:27 | 3275696 besnook
besnook's picture

look to iceland. that is their greatest fear. if italy defaults, spain and portugal and greece and ireland default. that is a domino theory they(the banksters) will fight agianst, a banksters vietnam against the people. there will be hell to pay by all the people as you will be squeezed like a fat man fucking a child.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:33 | 3275723 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

We are snarky and "clever" because we feel powerless and fucked over just like you.  In our case it is 100% our fault.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:37 | 3275729 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Nicolo - Italy does have some hope.  Amerika has no hope because we have obama. Amerika would be 100 times better off with grillo or berlasconi.

Italy going back to the lira might work out as well as Iceland.   The euro and eussr have hurt Italy badly.  They need to go. 

And we are not making fun of italy or italians.  We feel powerless as well. Italy is a wonderful country and the italians are great people.   It is the politicians, bankersters and bankster families we all hate.

If Grillo ror Berlusconi nuke the euro - they will be heroes.  Martin Armstrong thinks Silvio may have the guts to do it.

 

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 03:02 | 3276765 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

Last week we had a chance to read how Iceland's politicians are now saying that small currencies can't survive on their own.
What a bunch of banslter bullshit. Back each with some gold, silver andplatinm and watch them survive like a motherfucker!

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 10:08 | 3277258 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

that's because Iceland's politicians are firmly in the grip of the IMF.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:35 | 3275735 ersatzteil
ersatzteil's picture

I have an Italian friend who works for 5-star, and she describes a similar picture: no advancement opportunities, and no hope.

Gorgeous girl, two college degrees and the Italian equivalent to a Master's, excellent english...yet she is lucky to have a contract position in internet marketing.

I think the question is, would the EU let Italy out of the Euro? 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:45 | 3275759 antenna
antenna's picture

Thank you guys . I really appreciate your answer .

What is the benefit for Italy to continue to use the EUR ? What is your opinion ?

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:13 | 3275844 Grimbert
Grimbert's picture

My opinion is that it makes no difference internally. Either you end up poor, thinking 1 euro is a lot of money or you move to lire and you end up with lots of lire, still thinking 1 euro is a lot of money.

You have to balance the books - you can't spend more than you earn. That is true for all countries and the winners are those countries that do something about it sooner rather than later, either by defaulting or hyperinflating. Hyperinflation is best because everyone loses. Default is worse because the poor lose and the rich don't so much. 

You will certainly increase tourism and exports by going back to the lira. It is many years since I thought Italy, Spain, Portugal etc were cheap places to go on holiday.

 

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:23 | 3275867 walküre
walküre's picture

Default is worse because the poor lose and the rich don't so much.

The poor lose either way. The poor always lose.

Default hurts the rich. They can protect against hyperinflation but they cannot protect against default or DEVALUATION.

If you've learned anything in the past 4 years and followed Bernanke's policies, this is the reason for QE. He did not want to devalue or default on the debt because it would have seriously cramped his and his buddies STYLE.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 21:06 | 3276008 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

+QE4 for that, W!  You'd be surprised how few people get this -- even on this site.  Small steps, small steps.  If only there were enough time till...

And why won't this thing let me Up arrow you, neither from phone or PC?  It worked just a minute ago on the bank Brussels guy.  WTF?

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 00:36 | 3276619 Major Malfunction
Major Malfunction's picture

An interesting bug that's been hanging out in the ZH forum code for a while ...  if the FIRST CHARACTER of a post is in italics, you will not be able to up-vote or down-vote the post.

Yeah, it's a nagging little bug ... Tyler should probably have someone go in and fix it ...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:20 | 3275859 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

No net benefit at all, the euro is catastrophe for Italy and all the Mediterranean countries, it is the key element destroying working people's lives and employment opportunities

Berlusconi was right in calling it a 'scam' ... a political imposition for ugly interests that do not serve the Italian people

The economic background has been covered very well in English in the columns by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the UK Telegraph ... as he points out, the euro is really the major problem for Italy, which otherwise would have one of the strongest economies in Europe

The sooner Italy exits the euro, the better ... Though Greeks have suffered worse than the Italians so far, it is heartening to many of us to see Italy as the country with political leaders most likely to terminate this euro-zone disaster

My hope is that Berlusconi and Grillo will overcome their personal differences and unite in a coalition to bring an end to the euro's choking of the Italian people. Liberation of the rest of southern Europe would follow quickly.

God bless the Italians for voting so boldly !

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 01:06 | 3276661 Freddie
Freddie's picture

+1

It would not be the first time Italy saved Europe.   See the Battle of Lepanto.  The expensive currency was sold or conned onto the people as a way to become "wealthy" in southern Europe.  At first lots of free money but it has destroyed these countries.

Corrupt local and EUSSR policticians skimming money. No checks and balances on the criminals in Brussels. It has destroyed any exports for the southern countries because they are not competitive with an expensive currency.  The EUSSR vermin made it even worse with regulations, taxes, more money stolen and allowing Chinese imports to flood in was the final straw.

I agree that somehow Grillo and Berlusconi need to unite.  Some people may not Silvio or Grillo but I think they are real Italians and not Goldman Sachs men. 

 

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 03:58 | 3276804 Don Diego
Don Diego's picture

Half of the cost of the Lepanto campaign was paid by Spain.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 06:01 | 3276869 falak pema
falak pema's picture

universal empire has its costs; Italy belonged to Charles Vth then! 

OOPs; to Philip II rather! 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:22 | 3275863 g speed
g speed's picture

you guys make really great stuff--I think without the euro you will do very well. I have all Italian switching gear in my automated manufacturng systems (vended by Automation direct) works flawlessly. Your designers are the envy of the world. Just get rid of the international parasites.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:30 | 3275898 ersatzteil
ersatzteil's picture

When I talk with Italians visiting here in Southern California, they are looking at two places to work and live: Great Britain and the United States. Both have their own currencies and are less impotent than "all in" Euro states when it comes to economic legislation.

The problem is that even if Italy defaults and returns to the Lira, Brussels still dictates economic and workforce regulations as per being a member of the European Union. So leaving the EU would have to accompany any divorce from the Euro and national debt; otherwise the Italian economy remains fettered in chains to a foreign ruler.

I believe that you would see a flood of American tourists taking advantage of a favorable USD to Lira exchange. Plane tickets are manageable, even in these economic times; it's the pricey step up to the Euro that turns many off of making the trip. 

Would the EU allow this? Not without a long protracted fight; it's akin to delcaring war on the banking cartel. Iceland managed it, but the ECB pulled out all the stops on Greece (basically a colonial dependancy now.) It reminds me of when Hungary's regent Horthy expressed his intent to leave the Third Reich and sign a separate peace with Stalin. Hitler's reply was "he who rides a tiger will find he can't dismount..."

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 21:42 | 3276126 Acet
Acet's picture

The overly strong, inflexible straight-jacket which is the Euro is a major problem for Southern European countries' competitiveness.

On the other hand, the Northern European style economic and workforce regulations coming through Europe are not the problem for Southern European nations, quite the contrary. I say this as a Portuguese.

Northern Europe influenced EU regulation is the best thing that has happened to countries where laissez-faire, disorganisation and corruption are endemic.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:09 | 3275834 Tursas
Tursas's picture

What a question! I believe Italy has an army and a few million volunteers to support their case...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:46 | 3275757 JR
JR's picture

If Italy defaults, the economic malaise could spread well beyond Italy's borders and could pull down the euro zone. And break the stranglehold of the bankers over Europe.

“But, as Vaclav Klaus, the President of the Czech Republic, said in 2011:  "The most visible European problem today is the European monetary union, which was presented as the most important unification achievement following the Maastricht Treaty. The realization of this monetary union has not delivered the positive effects that—rightly or wrongly—had been expected from it. It was intended to accelerate economic growth, reduce inflation, and protect member states against external economic disruptions or so-called exogenous shocks. It has not worked. After the establishment of the euro zone, the economic growth of its member states slowed down relative to previous decades, thus increasing the gap between the rate of growth in the euro zone countries and that in other major economies. The internal disequilibria—such as trade imbalances and state budget imbalances—became larger, not smaller. And there is no indicator pointing towards a growing convergence in the euro zone countries. During its first decade of existence, a common currency has not led to any measurable homogenization of the member states’ economies.

“It should have been clear to all, as it was to me, that the idea of a single European currency was essentially wrongthat it would create huge economic problems and lead inevitably to an undemocratic centralization of Europe.”

Good luck, Nicolo; Italy's news is encouraging; better than ours. Grillo has fought hard for freedom, against financial and political corruption.

“And for those who still believe this is a non-issue, Beppe Grillo, the leader of the 5 Star Movement running in the campaign, and a very popular grass roots candidate among voters disenchanted by both parties, ‘said the bank’s case will turn into a scandal worse than the collapse of food company Parmalat SpA in 2003.’" – Zero Hedge

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-26/italian-scandal-widens-italys-third-largest-bank-set-get-third-bailout-3-years-dragh

NPR’s Sylvia Pogioli wrote last summer that a populist anti-euro sentiment is spreading across Europe. There’s a mounting backlash among several European countries and parliaments against the single currency itself, she said, and according to polls in Germany, “55% of those interviewed wished they still had the old deutsche mark.”

Or, as one Italian commenter put it: The Euro house is burning.

It’s a sentiment, says Pogioli, expressed by Italy’s grassroots Five Star Movement’s  populist leader,  Beppe Grillo.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:47 | 3275767 antenna
antenna's picture

Thank you for your reply JR . 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:06 | 3275823 Tursas
Tursas's picture

The Upper Euro house should give up dreaming. The plebs are getting irritated and want their squirrel skins back. They know how to exchange these to carrots...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:51 | 3275981 ersatzteil
ersatzteil's picture

Nobody could possibly overestimate the absolute fanaticism of the European Union idealists. They will have their political, economic and social union, and they will have further integration without national referendum. Bereit fur den Kampf, bereit fur den Sieg!..bitchez

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 05:52 | 3276868 falak pema
falak pema's picture

the Euro project was doomed since the Nice meeting of 1999; when Gerhard Schroeder asked Chirac of France to align himself on the "productivity" reforms he would enact subsequently which would have allowed FISCAL UNION harmony discussions to be blue printed, as the Euro money was officially launched. WIthout fiscal union the monetary union was standing on ONE leg.

France and Germany had to be on same economic page to move that fiscal union to becoming the necessary and INEVITABLE route, to be subsequently accepted by the smaller countries (3 of which : Spain, Portugal and Greece were aligning to join the 9 others then). 

That was a KEY turning point, as Germany had painfully reunified and Schroeder, new Chancellor, had this social reform  : flexibility and social tightening all ready to be launched. It needed french support to become Euro locomotive.

CHIRAC REFUSED, AS HIS COUNTRY WAS DIVIDED, HE HAD A SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT WHO HAD JUST LOOSENED PRODUCTIVITY OF FRENCH LABOUR BY INITIATING IN 1997 THE 35 HOUR WEEK PLUS LONGER HOLIDAYS! 

SO Delors's wish of seeing Eurozone's true economic federation as per MAastricht days; that MAggy contested very virulently then (NO, NO, NO speech); never saw the light of day in 1999 crucial meeting as EUro was launched. France and Germany went different routes as we know and that cohesion within the 12, then 17 nation Eurogroup, was lost.

Now post 2008, the Euro zone is doing the Folies Bergeres splits; and poor old Delors sings "I told you so, you dumbasses lost it all when you didn't use Nice 1999 opportunity to follow Schroeder's lead!" 

Crying over spilt milk!...but that was the crucial call and they missed it! 

Now Euro fall! Or at least Italy, Spain and Greece to default! 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:49 | 3275768 walküre
walküre's picture

Leave the Euro before Germany does. The debts can neither be repaid nor serviced. The debts should not be honored. The money was not real, it was a creation from the banks. They take 1 Euro and make loans for 30 Euros and then charge interest on all 30 Euros they loan out. That is called Fractional Reserve Lending and it has broken the backs of all economies in the world. It made the bankers and some elite ultra rich but it made many people poor who cannot survive in this inflationary environment. The fake money destroyed everything. This is worse than diluting a Lira against other currencies. The dilution of Lira in the Eighties was a walk in the park compared to what the international banks have done now.

I wish Grillo can explain to Italians in the easiest and simplest terms how the banks have screwed Italians and the rest of Europe.

Don't ever forget what the banks have done to your country.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:59 | 3275804 Tursas
Tursas's picture

If that comes true the solution to this financial nonsense is on the way...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:09 | 3275833 css1971
css1971's picture

The shit will hit the fan over the whole world in a default scenario, but for a relatively short time.

I recommend you find out what money is. Cos all your problems are based on what money is. Who controls it, how it's created, how it's destroyed. Once you've understood what it is, you can understand how to change it for the better. The problems are all solvable. Start with the Austrians, then take a look at Gesell.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:38 | 3275895 ArgentoFisico
ArgentoFisico's picture

Grillo has "won" cos he spoke to the heart of milions of desperate people and families. Key word here in Italy is WORK. With globalization and with the euro we're in full deindustrialization mode

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:44 | 3275956 unununium
unununium's picture

antenna,

I believe you.  I was told of the situation in the towns of Italy last June by a student intern who was visiting Florida.  I was very surprised at his level of despair.  I understand no hope for a job, but what causes no hope for a marriage??

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 04:39 | 3276827 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

no money/trade = no pussy.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:45 | 3275960 legorf
legorf's picture

In economics, you usually have two choices: face imbalances through flexible prices or sticky prices.

The thing is, quantities tend to adjust much more slowly than prices. Thus, with a sticky exchange rate regime (like Italy is facing now, sticky prices of labor and capital relative to other countries), the adjustment has to come through quantities, that means a high unemployment rate for a long time. This is long term pain.
If Italy was to switch to the Lira, the short term pain would be a jump in import prices (gasoline, manufactured goods, etc ...) but there would be a long term gain. Italy would soon regain its competitiveness through the relative price of Italian labor vs. other countries. In the end, trade partners will likely buy more "cheap Italian goods". The trade balance will improve and so will the current account. The other positive factor is to "reduce" debt through inflation. The debt in year t=0 is worth a lot relative to nominal GDP, in t=3, with inflation and economic growth, the debt is no longer much of a burden. Thus, there would be no need for drastic austerity measures. The cost of all this is, of course, inflation. Especially if the central bank chooses to monetize the debt, which it will certainly do.

In the end, you choose. Pain through unemployment or inflation?

About defaulting on the debt, that is a different story. You must know that your own banks, your own pension funds, etc ... hold Italian debt. Don't default, just transfer all the debt into Lira overnight, devaluate the Lira by x% the same night, that's it. Technically, that means you kind of default against foreign holders of Italian debt but keep current with domestic debt holders (banks, pension funds, private Italian investors, etc ...). Let the others bear the brunt of the default, not your own people. Now, the other countries might not like this at all. There would certainly be some retaliation in the form of trade barriers, legal disputes, etc …

I’m sorry but in the end, there is no easy way out.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:51 | 3275979 Room 101
Room 101's picture

Piacere Nicolo!  Bienvenuti.  Senti, mi Italiano e malissimo.  Necesito parlare in inglese.

In my view, Italy should not run from but embrace default.  Why?  Because you have a national debt that you have no hope of actually paying off.  Not that the banksters and their politician friends won't milk you, your neighbors, your friends, your children, and your entire family dry in a vain attempt to pay off that which cannot be paid off. Once you face up to that reality, the question is not "if" to default, but "when." 

The truth of the matter is that after default, things in any country will get worse.  Much worse.  The banksters will do their best to extract their pound of flesh. But that's temporary. History has shown that countries that default on their debt suffer for it.  For about 3-5 years.  And after that, they gain access to capital markets again and have a clean slate to operate off of. 

Italy has so much going for it in the way of basic resources it's just amazing.  Some of the most productive agricultural land on the planet, fantastic food, oil, good people, history.  Get out from under the debt yoke, don't take the yoke on again, and you'll do a lot better. 

Distinti saluti, camera 101

P.S. Bernanke: vaffancuolo!!  

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 09:58 | 3277225 Bahamas
Bahamas's picture

LIAR! if you truly were Italian your name waoud have been Niccolò

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:20 | 3275651 antenna
antenna's picture

.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:21 | 3275657 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

LMAO as soon as I seen the front page of ZH with this guy saying FU.

That was freckin Great  LOL !

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:57 | 3275794 besnook
besnook's picture

what is funny(in a very dark, hollywood sort of way) is what would happen to him if he ran for office in the usa. telling the .gov to fuck off earns a spot on the terrorist watch list(and probably the no fly list) with a possible reserved room in a phantom prison or as a phantom in a prison.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:26 | 3275691 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

If the voting Italians are the black swan that shatter the status quo by choosing a comedian, then we are in for a hell of a revolution.

"Oh boy, this is great!"  -  Flounder

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 22:12 | 3276227 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

"Can we dance wiff yo dates" Says the black Swan to Goldman

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:40 | 3275746 NoClueSneaker
NoClueSneaker's picture

Shame on you Amerikkans ....

George Carlin was a century pick for the

POTUS...  :-P

 

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:46 | 3275764 They Tried to S...
They Tried to Steal My Gold's picture

GOP screwed up - Should've replaced Romney with George Carlin!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:48 | 3275769 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

"...there is a third alternative to the fake Party A-Party B paradigm..."

amen and amen! through the transitive principle, a and b equal crap and they equal each other - there is no difference. if americans had realized that truth even 2 decades ago, they could have avoided the nazi state.....but alas it is too late.....

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 00:58 | 3276651 Major Malfunction
Major Malfunction's picture

If you decide it is too late, it is too late for you.  As I may have several decades left to live on our little planet, I very much intend to try and improve my life, and improve where I live, my environment (mmmmm, my country...), as best as possible.  You are certainly welcome to crawl back into whatever dark hole you crawled out of.  Or you can join those of us who have decided, "the $hit stops here!" and do something.  Anything.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 19:56 | 3275792 milanitaly
milanitaly's picture

We realize your dreams!

Fight club starts in italy.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:04 | 3275817 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

Don't count out Bunga until the last vote is bought!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:25 | 3275842 rogeliokh
rogeliokh's picture

Is this Comedian Guy for Euro Austerity or what? Or just F*U* all type of guy?

What is his program? So confusing, Yen up, Yen down. What is the point here?

Complete chaos on FX at least.. Gold ain't doing much despite severe drop..

USDJPY just moved 150 pips up and Gold nailed to the wall, - no reaction.

 

P.S.:

1)

"2013-02-26 12:00:00 AM    *DJ Lockhart: Improved Housing, European Calm Boosting Outlook"

Europian Calm????? ha-ha-ha... :))))) WTF???

2)

"2013-02-26 12:00:00 AM    *DJ Lockhart: U.S. to Grow Trend Like 2%-2.5% in 2013, Could Surprise Higher"

 

That's it...  Fed Dudes are on dope :)))

 

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:27 | 3275888 milanitaly
milanitaly's picture

Euro austerity?.?
Time for Us$ austerity now. You start to pay more taxes we did it enough.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:24 | 3275865 milanitaly
milanitaly's picture

Look at the five stars' symbol and you can see V like V for revenge (the movie).

It starts in italy now and will expand in Europe soon.

Occupy wall street takes note how to do

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 08:27 | 3276994 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

the V stands for vaffanculo, not vendetta. you should know that

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:30 | 3275896 FinLen
FinLen's picture

It is reasonable to view the election as a surprise outcome.  That could mean the banks were not quite done unloading their longs.  Will they squeeze us up toward the highs for a double top and unload more shares to the bag holders before we come in hard?  BBernak is on Q for Tuesday, then window dressing, then March 1 jumper, a surprise sequestor deal?, China PMI Friday and Monday, ECB and jobs next week.  Lots of room for positive surprises to move the tape up for a last leg?  Final Bear massicare.    

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:47 | 3275924 razorthin
razorthin's picture

Va fare in culo e va a Napoli!

Shove it up your ass AND go to hell, in that order.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:38 | 3275932 shinobi-7
shinobi-7's picture

"Vaffanculo!" is definitively a proper response to Europe but Grillo will still need to rein in expenses, good old inflation could help though. Italy needs inflation!

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 20:46 | 3275968 Mussolim
Mussolim's picture

Gotta say... being a 5 stars activist i thought we had a better result...

but given that... could u inagine a parliament with hundreds of deputies streaming live  from every commission? asking 4 legal nuber in every parliament's session? asking for realtime liquid feedback 4 every important decision?

I CAN, AND I'LL BE A PLEASURE...

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 22:40 | 3276308 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Wait, what? They have more than 2 parties?  My mind is blown.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 23:35 | 3276481 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

The beautiful thing about this election in Italy is that it shows absolutely that you can fool some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. God bless George Carlin, even though he would probably say "fuck you" to the blessing.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 00:32 | 3276612 resurger
resurger's picture

Roses and Kisses to the brave Italians

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 01:24 | 3276683 Freddie
Freddie's picture

+1

The Egyptians also moved me fighting against the "govt" Obummer installed.  The poor Syrian people fighting against O's Mus Bro Hood/Al Qeada thugs too. 

All the best to the Italian people and Italy.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 01:40 | 3276699 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

up late tonight huh Fred? probably watching all of the best movie nominee films in a row

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 02:03 | 3276728 Count Manzeppi
Count Manzeppi's picture

The meta-game implications Berlusconi's current success are convenient, and while he may actually have a few positions I don't disagree with (no pun intended), that is all there is and he otherwise remains scum and an embarrassment to Italy.

This passage comes to mind when trying to describe him: "You, my friend, are a leaking boil on the anus of a cancerous rodent, squeaking from a dark corner of oblivion”

So have your way with me once again Berl fans. My opinion of that human piece of excrement will remain unchanged and constant.

 

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 09:14 | 3277099 paint it red ca...
paint it red call it hell's picture

There is a saying, 'You can't polish a turd'.

However, this is most certainly a case of the shiniest turd with the advantage being, this particular turd's high sheen was not spit polished to brilliance by goldman sachs.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 06:46 | 3276888 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

The trouble is, the 'winner(s)' are probably already considering bribes and being bought off by the status quo.

A mini revolution has occurred and revolutions rarely lead to better government in the short term?

 

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 08:25 | 3276989 kralizec
kralizec's picture

Hard to get excited, Italy has a new government every 5 minutes and can leap from one extreme to another - my prediction is easy: more chaos.

It is after all the only true constant in the universe.

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